DHSDSM beta: Game Over.

[Zmd]

Vote Frog Dodging

Did I just break a general rule of this site O.o?

[Zmd]

3.

Zmd

- Seriously you two. I like you, but lets play mafia here. You beat me by lurking once.. IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN!

That was Zaz. I never lurk strategically. And even in 672, Zaz's lurking wasn't strategic.

I don't see the case on A&B.

Fuuny how Hoopla/Ort calls Poke's wagon opportunistic and then jumps on the new popular wagon.

Unvote, Vote Ortohoops

[Zmd]

Prodded. Will catch up tonight or tomorrow.

[Zmd]

quote="Pesco Light"]

If my partner says something that is questioned/attacked, then I can't post until she does without a) avoiding the issue, looking scummy or b) saying its a different head.

This is a non-issue. You should be comfortable enough with your partner that even if there are differences in opinions/responses, you can rationalise it and explain things. You're sharing the same role and alignment, I don't buy anyone claiming to be so incompetent that they can't post due to something their player slot said.

Unvote
Vote Apples&Banana

Pesco[/quote]

It's possible that your partner will say something and you don't know why they said it or you don't even agree with it. I agree that it isn't a major issue though as you can easily say "I don't know why my partner said that" or "I disagree with my partner."

At the moment, the PokeTheAlpaca wagon looks

very

opportunistic. Of the people on the wagon, A&B's vote stands out the most as a cheap way to jump on, especially when they were yet to post content. Kscope's meta suggests all is fine for him jumping on too, but I still don't like the baseless entry.

I'm going to

Vote: Apples and Bananas

on a gut read.[/color]

What? You make a point against opportunistic wagons and join the other opportunistic wagon? Really?

I'm unsure as to whether I like the rapidly materializing wagon on A&B or not - part of me wants to leap on there full-force, part of me wants to run away screaming bloody murder. It's rather blah-inducing.

Nice fence-sit.

Fuuny how Hoopla/Ort calls Poke's wagon opportunistic and then jumps on the new popular wagon.

Unvote, Vote Ortohoops

Oh, I already commented on this? Oh well. Still feel the same.

My main point is I don't think scum would blatantly draw attention to themself in such an obvious way - or rather, I don't think those spam posts were intentionally made to waste posts, when a recharge target is so far off. There is little to no scum motivation behind it.

In fact I'd suggest scum would more likely be the players most wary of this infraction. It's a simple way for them to sit back early and jump on someone for fluff posting, knowing that the town is paranoid of this. And, I think A&B is most guilty of this crime.[/color]

I disagree to an extent. Scum will still want to rush things a little. I expect to see a mix. Scum who are trying to sneak in extra posts and scum who lurk. That being said, Trotsky posted more than needed in the first couple of pages. +Scumpoints.

Fine, I'll claim.

Compulsive Vig.

I'd have said he stays alive until the scum are dead. If he's still alive by then, obvSK. I see that he's flipped SK though.

Also, not posting under your hydra name is uber confusing.

Why is it confusing?

----------------------

Scum are Ortohoops, Trotsky, and Death The Hogfather.

I don't see PTA as scum.

Zazie's input may come later. I can't exactly speak for her, but I know she has shown some interest in catching up on this.

[Zmd]

It's possible that your partner will say something and you don't know why they said it or you don't even agree with it. I agree that it isn't a major issue though as you can easily say "I don't know why my partner said that" or "I disagree with my partner."

Why are you talking to someone that replaced out, like, over a week ago?

I was catching up, so I stated my opinion.

I disagree to an extent. Scum will still want to rush things a little. I expect to see a mix. Scum who are trying to sneak in extra posts and scum who lurk.

Is that disagreeing with the essence of what Ortohoops said though? That scum would jump on someone for fluff posting?

I think scum might jump on that, but I see town getting genuinely frustrated with fluff too, so I won't use attacking fluff posting as a point against anyone.

Scum are Ortohoops, Trotsky, and Death The Hogfather.

You gave scumpoints to Trotsky and said Ortohoops was opportunistic, but you didn't mention Death the Hogfather in that post. How is he scum?

Gut. And I think he made a vote I didn't like the timing of.

Looking at him in isolation, I probably didn't like the A&B vote.

Zmd why do you list three people as confident scum but not vote for any of them? Also as J-Scope pointed out, what has Death of Hogfather done to specifically warrant scum inclusion?

I listed my top three suspects. I don't have a huge case on any of them, but I have a strong feeling that Trotsky is scum trying to use as many posts as possible.

Vote Trotsky

Second question answered above.

Zmd is generally empty on content. Post 168, the only that has multiple comments, seems to be reads from gut that will not give us much. Please elaborate. The reason voiced for Trotsky's scummyness (relatively many posts first 2 pages), for example, would apply also to other players (like Pta, who Zmd declares town).

I tend to use my gut quite a bit for my suspicions. Logic is used to persuade people. I'll get to that when I'm more sure on someone. My gut reads are still Trotsky, Ortohoops, and Hogfather.

PTA was scummy as town in the other game, so I'm a little slow to jump on them.

I wish ZMD didn't make the "prodded will post soon" post number 148. That's still anti-town, and probably scummy as well since scum would like to get us to drift past 12 pages without a lynch.

Didn't realize it was anti-town until after I said it. Won't do it again. I'm used to being active in games, so I'm still getting used to trying not to post too much.

Leaning scum

*3. Zmd (ZazieR+Kmd4390) : Several non-content posts. Has only made one post this game with content, and I don't agree with any of it.

Several? I think the only non-content post I've made was the "will catch up" post. Everything else has had content. And you of all people should know that just because you disagree with someone doesn't make them scum. Just like agreeing with someone doesn't make them town.

-----------------

Read Trotsky/Korts/Rofl in isolation and tell me they aren't scum.

[Zmd]

"Feh, ZMD's most recent post is sparse and almost purely responsive. Everything about his post is watered down and galvanized only by questions. Even his case and vote are forced in order to refute ShaftedSex."

That's how I play. I respond to things that either stand out or are directed at me.

I'm tempted to vote for ZMD here. Again, they are nowhere near where the actual discussion is happening. They're off in their own little world - which is a comfortable position to be in for scum. They have their suspect, who's unlikely to be lynched, so they can simply leave their vote there for a while. They're not in the thick of a great debate, so they're not going to be questioned too heavily. All they need to do is make a post every once in a while re-affirming their support of a trotsky wagon.
In this game I do it on Santos, partly so I don't have to comment on the wagon on my scumbuddy. In this game I had planned to do it on elmo, my scumpartner (but then ended up lurking instead. Whoops!) You can see it starting, though, if you look at my posts in isolation. This one I do it on alexhans, my scumpartner. It's so much easier to play as scum if you don't have to pay attention to the game.

Just to your chosen vote.

So basically my choices for scum are unlikely to be lynched, so I should mindlessly follow everyone else? Riiiiight.

You have a point, shaft.ed, about trotsky. With ZMD it feels worse because ZMD has also been lurking all game, whereas trostky was relatively active and involved at the beginning - the

only

thing zmd has done is push that wagon.

Walls-O-Text tend to make me less interested in games. But I'm pushing Trotsky/Ortohoops/Hogfather as scum because that was my impression when I made my original read.

And you are a paragon of contribution, and definitely not lurking whatsoever! You're attacking someone who

barely posted at all

for posting more than needed in the first couple of pages while ignoring PTA who posted completely useless posts early on. What are you smoking, and where can I get some?

I just read Trotsky as scummier.

This is a well-qualified and great piece of analysis. POSITIVELY RIVETING

I can't post my opinions now?

And I think he made a vote I didn't like the timing of.

Well, your honour, I think he might've gone done something I didn't quite cotton to at that point! Ayup!

So you want me to ignore what caught my attention earlier?

I love how when it's pointed out he didn't vote after naming his suspects he gets RIGHT ON VOTING RIGHT THEN AND THERE. I'd also like to note that all of Zmd's votes so far have been on someone with 0 votes. It's like he's trying to blatantly avoid looking like a bandwagoner and trying to avoid any possible connection to anyone else at all. PAAAARANOIA

I voted because I usually like having a vote out. Didn't realize I forgot to vote before. And I voted my top suspect regardless of the number of votes.

Apparently I also want to note that zmd's posts are noticeably less detailed and whatnot than in alpha.

Sorry. I need to stop being lazy with Walls-O-Text.

-----------------------------

Yos, what makes me look cautious?

-----------------------------

Whom I'm willing to lynch now (update it as you post):
1. Zaphod Beeblebrox (0)
3. Zmd (0)
4. Trotsky(2): nyballosulgniirkps, ZMD
5. Ojando (1): ZMD
7. Yosariwen (1): nybaloosulgniirkps
8. Ortohoops (1): ZMD
9. sex w/ shafteds wife club(0):
10. PoketheAlpaca (0):
11. nyballosulgniirkps (0):
12. Raging Wishbone (0):
13. J-Scope (0):
14. Frog Dodging (0):

[Zmd]

So basically my choices for scum are unlikely to be lynched, so I should mindlessly follow everyone else? Riiiiight.

The problem is you're not putting any arguments forward or making any case. You've just been putting forward a lone vote based on impression, or voicing your suspicions based on something you haven't even bothered to look up again ("Gut. And I think he made a vote I didn't like the timing of" about why our predecessor was scummy to you). This method marginalizes your contributions very much.

Hogfather was my 3rd suspect. I didn't have much on them. That's why I went after Trotsky and Ortohoops instead. And if you'll read my post, it was the timing of the vote on A&B that caught my atention. I said this in that same post. So saying that I "haven't bothered to look it up" is a blatant misrep. I looked it up the second I was asked why Hogfather was scummy.

@Kmd

, I think I've learned how to read you; come back moar plz so I can do that kthx.

I haven't gone anywhere. I'm just not wasting posts. I'm waiting until I have a decent amount of posts to answer to before I say anything.

And you've learned how to read me? Assuming this is Plum that said this (I'm pretty sure it is), I think the only game you played with me as town was Zelda where I could not keep up at all, so I don't think you even have enough town meta to read me. If it's DGB, I believe you. Pretty sure that was Plum though.

@FrogDodge - Seriousley Dude, why were you so confident A&B lied or you had protection... you wrote in response (paraphrased) to his claim, "Dont count us out until we are dead". You seemed positive you would not be SK'd!

This is a good point. The only way to be THAT confident in not dying is if they are NK-Immune. And, as you pointed out, SKs ARE, in fact, NK-Immune.

ZMD: No wall of text battles. Do not cut up my arguments. Treat it as a whole. In general, you failed to refute any of our points: you haven't given any real excuse for why you are posting opinions on some things but not others. You have given us almost no insight into your thought process. You strawman us a couple of times, particularly when you respond to us saying you should talk about other things than just the one person you are suspicious of and you take this to mean you should blindly follow. Why are you suspicious of x and y? Do you care if people respond to your questions? You are skirting by the waysides.

I'm posting opinions on everything that catches my attention. I have a hard time reading these long posts, but when I see something, I comment on it.

I'm suspicious of Trotsky for the way he posted fluff early, but isn't posting much at all now. Go ahead and call that hypocritical, but I really read Trotsky as scum right now.

KMD is doing all the posting. It is not unusual for zazier to lurk. We expect a burst of activity from zazier at some point.

She has other places that she needs to catch up first. I'd love to see her come back to this game, but I can understand why she hasn't.

ZMD needs lynching. Don't think they expected to die - posts may reveal more, as they had not yet begun preparing to die.

There was an SK which means no vig. The only way I am dying is if scum kills me or an SK who has no vig fakeclaim kills me. I don't see why I'd be a threat to scum unless I am dead-on on the scum team. Even then, I'm probably not their best target. So no, I'm not "prepared" to die.

I don't really know how Zazier plays but I can see that she is very active in other games. I think more explanation is necessary on their activity level in this game.

She tends to fall behind and then if she catches up, she explodes activity-wise. This hasn't happened yet here as she's given other games higher priority right now.

Yos, what makes me look cautious?

It seems like you were unwilling to scumhunt agressivly, until you were attacked for not scumhunting agressivly, and then you started; it looks like you mostly scumhunted in order to avoid being attacked, instead of because you wanted to find scum.

Being much more concerned with how you look and with not making waves then with what's good for the town can be a scumtell, and I kind of get that vibe from your posts.

Actually, the lack of aggression comes from the style of the game. My violent-rage-style attacks usually come in the form of back-and-forth short posts and insults. It's hard to do that here.

And actually, I don't give a shit how I look. If I look like lurker-scum not wanting to do anything, fine. But that's not what I'm doing. I do believe Trotsky and Ortohoops to be scum. More Trotsky obviously. And I strongly believe FD to be SK because of his confidence in surviving A&B's kill. Surviving the kill itself is a long shot. How many times do you see a claimed vig's kill stopped by a doc or RB? And if the action was sent before A&B claimed their target, why would FD be protected? It's still plausible that A&B was RB'd, but that's about it. I think either they were RB'd or FD is SK.

Also, based on the "who I'd lynch" thing (which more people should add themselves to btw), Trotsky seems like a fairly agreed upon lynch.

Mod: Can we please get a prod on NYBalls, Trotsky, ZMD, Pokealpca, and Orthohoops

For future reference, prodding me is pointless. The only time I log into this account is to post here. So I'd see the prod just before I'm about to post anyway. And I'm online every day and highly aware of this game. No need to prod at any time.

So, my top choices for a lynch right now are Trotsky and FD. FD is probably SK though, not mafia.

My guess for mafia right now is still: Trotsky, Ortohoops, Ojando.

If it takes me a few days to respond to something, it's because I'm waiting for more to respond to at the same time, NOT because I've forgotten or am avoiding anything. I'll get to it when I feel it's best.

[Zmd]

Because no doc would ever protect the hydra composed of two of the four most experienced (at that point in time) players in the game, who between them have 8 and a half thousand in game posts, have been nominated for four scummies and who are generally well respected and established members of this site. That would just be

silly

.

You'd done nothing at the time that was worthy of protection. I guess it can't be ruled out that you were protected, but why were you so confident in surviving the kill?

Not liking zmd's attack on us at all. Also, their defense of themselves amounts to "Well, why shouldn't we play like this?" which isn't really a defense of anything, it's just rhetorical bluster.

Yeah, I think you are SK, so I must be scum, right?

And what am I supposed to defend to anyway? Laziness regarding Walls-O-Text? That's the case on me, right? I'm lazy and suspicious of you and therefore scum.

There was an SK which means no vig. The only way I am dying is if scum kills me or an SK who has no vig fakeclaim kills me. I don't see why I'd be a threat to scum unless I am dead-on on the scum team. Even then, I'm probably not their best target. So no, I'm not "prepared" to die.

This was referring to swsewc. I apologies for the lack of clarity.
[/quote]

Hmm. Ok. Didn't seem to be, but thanks for the clarification.

zmdposting is bad. the whole of his post 224 is defensive all the way through and without even trying to refute the points against him.

Show me a specific point that I haven't tried to refute. You won't find one.

Zmd - yeah, that was me, actually. I don't know if you forgot that I was just recently scum with you, and I didn't mention that I was skimming some Little Italy games, saw you in LYLO, and knew you were the scum . . . and you've been scum in a fair amount of the games we've played together. But anyway, you know.

Oh, I know you've seen me as scum plenty. I just don't think you've seen enough of me as town. (By the way, if you mean the other lovers game as the one you saw, I know that I was obvscum the minute I didn't hammer Amished. Fortunately, Sajin, DDD, and Amished didn't think so. XD)

I admit that Trotsky seemed more active earlier in the game, but I don't seem to recall Trotsky posting fluff exactly. Where do you believe he did this while early in the game?

Looking back, it's not really fluff. Just seemed that he was taking advantage of the RVS with the amount of posts he used. His exchange with Zaphod since I last posted is a similar situation.

Both made the ridiculous attempt of painting Frog Dodging as possessing confidence that they wouldn't die by taking their post out of content.

And how is it ridiculous and out of context (I assume you meant context and not content)?

[Zmd]

When doctor's sent their protection in, guess what. Neither had anyone else at all. The game hadn't started yet.

You're right. My bad.

Even if that weren't true, though, numerous players had already stated that they thought we were protown. You point falls down on every possible level. The real problem, however, seems to be that you fail at reading. Go read the post where the quote came from. Then tell me that it looks like we thought we would survive.

You guys can start digging our grave once we're dead, and not a minute before, OK?

I read this as confidence in survival.

But:

Since our mortality is on the line here, I feel it prudent to share every last thought I have on this game before our untimely demise.

You're right. This isn't confidence at all.

Yeah, no. Stop being stupid. The case on you is based on numerous factors - you are lurkish. You fail at giving any useful input - all your posts are either refuting arguments against you or posts like iso 3 - where you say nothing of worth or of use to anyone. You avoid talking about any of the major suspects or wagons in this game - you are trying to avoid the limelight, trying to avoid giving anything away. You have focused on trotsky as a convenient excuse to not talk about A&B, PTA, Yosiwen/Ortohoops, Raging Wishbone... we don't even know what you think about, well, anything. Ortohoops you think is scum because of

and that's it. A&B you "didn't see the case on". You've not mentioned the PTA wagon. You've not mentioned SWSWC coming up scum. When you are so focused, off in your own little world, like you are, my gut screams scum. There's no need to scumhunt if you already know who is scum, right?

lurkish-laziness with Walls-O-Text.

fail at giving any useful input- I'm giving opinions where I have them.

refuting arguments or say nothing of worth- My post-style is a responsive one. I respond to what stands out. This can be seen in almost any mafia game I have ever played.

avoid talking about major suspects- I talk about who I suspect. I don't care who everyone else suspects. Ok, if someone is near a lynch, I either agree or ask for reasons. But aside from that, only my suspicions matter to me.

trying to avoid limelight-untrue.

focused on trotsky as an excuse not to talk about...-No. I have suspected Trotsky all game. So that's who I focus on. A&B was dead before I really got a chance to comment. I did state that I'd have believed his claim if I was around at the time. I was wrong. *shrug*. PTA, I have a town read on. Yos/Nuwen, I am neutral on. Slight town lean. RW, same as Yos/Nuwen. Ortohoops, yeah, that's why I'm suspicious of them. They called out an opportunistic wagon and then jumped on one that was even more opportunistic.

Ok, Shaft/EK were scum. I was wrong on that. What more do you expect me to say?

Have you even seen my scum game? I try to take complete control of everything. I pick who I want lynched and make it happen. I make the strongest case I can, shrug it off the next day when I'm wrong, and do it all again the next day. I guess it means nothing because you haven't seen me as scum, but I feel insulted that you think I play like this as scum.

you could try pushing your cases (give reasons, attack the player, etc), you could compromise and move to more successful wagons. AT THE VERY LEAST YOU SHOULD PAY ATTENTION TO THE GAME RATHER THAN JUST SOMEHOW DECIDE THAT BECAUSE YOU HAVE A LIST OF SUSPECTS THIS MAKES YOU IMMUNE TO CRITICISM. NEWSFLASH: IT HELPS TOWN WHEN YOU COMMENT ON STUFF.

Let me make something clear. I'll do it your way and use caps. I DON'T GIVE A FUCK ABOUT CRITICISM. NOWHERE DID I EVER CLAIM TO BE IMMUNE TO IT. NOBODY IS IMMUNE TO IT. I HAVE SUSPECTS AND WHAT THAT MEANS IS THAT THAT IS WHO I WANT LYNCHED, NOT THAT NO ONE CAN SUSPECT ME. Maybe it's clear now. We'll see.

I don't understand their case on Ojando, even though I'm guessing its their third choice and probably just a gut feeling.

Yeah, it was based on Hogfather's actions. I don't have much on Ojando after that.

Going back and reading everyones posts again; yos/nuw, pokealpca, nyballs, trotsky, zaphod, ect are all using some form of comunication to chat. They keep mentioning it in their posts... Ortohoops and Zmd aint mentioning it much but I aint really worried about it at this point...

We actually haven't talked much about the game. She is way too far behind to know what is going on. V__V

--------------------------

RW raises valid points on JScope, but then backs off too quickly IMO. Why?

RW's unbolded vote and real vote in next post looks a little like an intentional post waster..

Trotsky was a SK.

lol. Close enough.

Guess FD isn't SK then.

Suspects in order: RW, JScope, Ortohoops, Ojando.

Although, to be fair, Zmd is a fantastic lynch and he was on the wagon. His main behaviour this game has been lurking, taking issue with semantics, lurking; with a side of active-lurking. Also stuff like insisting Death the Hogfather is still one of his suspects in 224 even though he had long been replaced. Lazy scum. Read his replies, they're all pretty much contentless or bad OMGUSes on Frog Dodging.

Vote: Zmd

lurking-lazy with walls-o-text

taking issue with semantics-where?

active lurking- how?

Hogfather- Yeah, they was replaced. But I don't excuse their actions when looking at Ojando.

I don't see my posts as contentless.

Oh, and it's twilight. Why are you voting? XD

I've been thinking really hard about how to resolve this, and I've considered:
1. changing the action phase mechanic to something similar to alpha's, but a bit more mild
2. setting a calendar deadline, with largest minority lynching at deadline
3. abandoning the game
4 eliminating the prod mechanic entirely (or amend it)

I think the game is fine how it is. Abandoning it would make no sense IMO.

-----------------------------------

We've lynched 2 SKs. I'm going to analyze them and see what I get.

Orange will indicate SK. Red for Mafia. Green for town. Black is for living players.

Apples and Banana

: 6 :

sex w/ shafteds wife club

, Ortohoops,

Trotsky

, Death the Hogfather,

Incamnito

, Raging Wishbone, J-Scope
PoketheAlpaca: 2: Yosariwen, Frog Dodging,
Ortohoops: 2 :Zmd,

Apples and Banana

Trotsky

: 1 :PoketheAlpaca,
Death the Hogfather: 1 :Zaphod Beeblebrox,
Zmd: 1 :J-Scope,

not voting: 1 :nyballosulgniirkps,

Ortohoops gets slight town points. Hogfather (Ojando) scum points. RW slight scum. J-Scope null.

PtA voted an SK alone. Town points. ny not voting is scum points.

So based on the A&B lynch alone (does NOT reflect my actual opinions):
Scummy:
Ojando
RW
ny

Townish:
Orto
PtA

We don't have a vote count very close to the Trotsky lynch, but I'll get one.

Raging Wishbone: 3 :Yosariwen, Zaphod Beeblebrox, J-Scope
Zaphod Beeblebrox: 2 :

Trotsky

, Ojando
Frog Dodging 1 :J-Scope,

Trotsky

: 6 :Zmd, Ortohoops, Frog Dodging, nyballosulgniirkps, Raging Wishbone, PoketheAlpaca

PtA is null. FD, ny, and RW get scum points.

This wagon only:
Scummy:
FD
ny
RW

Both vote counts show ny and RW as scummy.

New suspect list:
Rw, JScope, ny. Orto is still on my radar. Ojando, I'm not very concerned with right now. I think PtA is town. FD, I'm back and forth on. I think Yos/Nuwen and Zaphod are town.

I think if I was going to vote (it's twilight, so won't bother), it would be for RW. I'd also be ok lynching JScope or ny.

[Zmd]

Ojando, as scum, I am a better player. I am more confident in my actions. I know my plan and I go with it. As town, I get my ideas and try to push them, but I'm second guessing myself any time people agree with me. I'm less confident and more unsure. And me lurking is a nulltell, not a towntell. It's more the game than anything else. It's not that I'm not enjoying it, because I am. It's just more work than most games.

FD, I'll admit I didn't look as closely as I could have. If I remember correctly, I read what they quoted and their post and thought, "wow, good point". That was my mistake.

Also, this is gonna piss some people off, but if I get near a lynch, I won't claim. Enough people see me as scummy that I can accept my own lynch instead of being lynched later when we have less mislynches availible to us. And if I were to survive the lynch, I have the scum WIFOMing over my role and trying to decide if they need to worry about me or not. All I am going to say is that if I am a power role, I have no valuable information to share yet. That's as close to a claim as I am getting even if I am at L-1 with everyone else threatening to hammer. Take it how you will, but that's what I am doing and I'm set on that.

[Zmd]

ZMD: How exactly did you come to your conclusions from that vote count analysis? It seems to me that you just picked names at random off the vote count and decided that these people are scummy.

See what happens when I don't use quotes? I forget to respond to stuff.

A&B wagon, I looked at the lynch as a townie lynch because scum would see it as that and vote the same way. Ortohoops probably wouldn't be dumb enough to vote right behind a buddy. And the vote was really early (second). The hammer could come from either alignment. The other votes are scummy. Not voting is scummy. PtA was on another wagon, alone. That player was lynched next as SK. That's where their town points come from. (Noticed a mistake. JScope's vote on me was gone when they hammered). Oh, the same reasoning can fit as town points for Zaphod too, actually.

The Trotsky lynch, nobody is confirmed on that wagon. I know myself to be town, and Ortohoops voted pretty early again. The rest of the votes, except the hammer, get scum points.

Put them together and ny/RW got scumpoints on both.

Zaphod, no admission of guilt there. Just acceptance of a lynch so that I'm not mislynched in LYLO.

I might not post again for a while. Just a heads up. If I'm needed, I'll be here. I'm just not gonna post unless it's absolutely needed.

[Zmd]

Zaphod, I'm not "throwing in the towel". I'm doing something that benefits town. I'll explain it postgame if I have to. I tried and failed at the same thing in a game on SA right after I made my post here. Basically, my thinking is that I am seen as scummy by too many people to be here later. So whether I'm a power role or a vanilla, it helps town for me to not be in LYLO. Now, we have a lot of days to work with, so this will be better than on SA. I can afford to die. If I am the lynch target, I can accept that. That doesn't mean I'm going to give up and stop scumhunting and stop trying to win. If I'm not lynched, the scum now know that they will not find out what my role is. The only exception is LYLO with one scum remaining. So I have the scum WIFOMing over what role could benefit from not claiming while facing a lynch. Town doesn't have to worry about that. All town has to worry about is if I'm town trying something different or if I'm scum trying to get out of making a crap claim instead of bullshitting an easy claim (cop with innocents on actual townies, cop with guilty on a buddy, tracker claiming someone did nothing to either "confirm" myself or draw out a power role, etc.)

JScope, I rarely show my second guessing, but it usually happens when my lynch choice is close to actually being lynched. I start to think "oh shit, I'm wrong. I should back off" but then I think "Well, they were scummy and I pushed. Maybe I'm right" and I debate with myself. But I almost always keep pushing anyway unless the person has strongly convinced me that I'm wrong (see Drench in Robot Chicken). For examples of times I've second guessed without showing it, off the top of my head see Dejkha in Immunity Mafia, open game 119 I think. Or BlakAdder in Mini 677, Powerball Mafia. It happens all the time. I just don't show it. I second guessed Trotsky a little just before the exchange with Zaphod.

I have you and RW as my top two choices, so yes, I think the chances are high that at least one of you is scum. Not because of your suspicions on each other.

Ojando, the fact that we aren't near LYLO means we can afford a mislynch. If I'm going to be lynched, I'd rather it be now than closer to LYLO.

[Zmd]

JScope, it's a combination of the voting analysis and their most recent posts. NY isn't scummy apart from the analysis.

Plum, again, I am FAR from giving up. It's a new strategy I've been trying. Call it a Gambit if you'd like. Basically, I don't think a claim will stop my lynch. So if my lynch

is

stopped, scum are still trying to figure out what my role is and whether or not I'm about to gain info that will win for the town.

Vote Raging Wishbone

. It's me or them. That suits me fine because they are my top suspect anyway.

[Zmd]

Am I wrong in thinking that your claim contradicts your attack on FD?

[Zmd]

Um, yeah. RW, explain this.

VOTE: FrogDodge

Unless we can figure out if A&B was lying... I see no other reason he is not dead. I kinda would like to stick with Occams Razor.

If you knew you protected FD, why did you vote him here with this added on to it?

[Zmd]

Not even close to addressing my point.

[Zmd]

Should RW flip scum, then things look a lot brighter for Zmd. Though being on the hot seat as

she

is, Zmd pretty much has no choice but to bus. Oh wait. WIFOM. Never mind.

Fixed. I thought you <3 me, yet you can''t say that it was me who caught them with their vote

[Zmd]

...yet you can''t say that it was me who caught them with their vote

No? Did I read too quickly and miss something?

You're misreading what she said. I did the same thing the first time I read it. She meant that you originally gave me (Kmd) the credit with the pronoun "he", but it was strictly her catch.

[Zmd]

I think once you reread my exchange with ZMD, you will see how he framed the discussion to serve his purpose.

Nothing in that was twisted. It doesn't make sense for a doc to suspect their target for still being alive.

Having written that, I am not sure he is doing it because he is scum or if he did it to keep from being lynched himself.

Neither. We thought you were scum..

Regardless, the subsequent discussion between Zaphod and ZMD contain scum. It is one or the other and I am certain their partner is J-Scope now.

Zaphod and JScope both dropped the "nice catch", so I can agree that one of them is likely scum. JScope clearly wanted you lynched anyway, so I'd lean Zaphod.

There shouldn't be any doubt either me or J-Scope are scum, so if I flip town he should be your next lynch.

I don't understand why one of two people attacking each other has to be scum.

[Zmd]

Not according to my Role PM. Can you honestly say the same?

[Zmd]

Kmd's top suspects: Zaphod, JScope, ny. Could also see Ojando/Otohoops, but don't really have much on either.

[Zmd]

Ojando, Zazie made our first post of the game. I talked to her about the game on AIM and she saw what we thought was a good catch on RW. I posted about that and she made our posts 16 and 17. The rest has been me.

[Zmd]

Zaphod, by suspecting lurkers just because of the amount of time it took for a kill, you are saying that ALL THREE scum are lurking. That would effectively clear JScope, you, and myself. I'm not at all comfortable clearing you and JScope just yet.

Then she catches up at some point?

Not really. I talked to her on AIM and mentioned how I thought RW said something, but couldn't find it and she found it for me.

[Zmd]

We have 3 scum left, not 2?

Zaphod, by suspecting lurkers just because of the amount of time it took for a kill, you are saying that

BOTH

scum are lurking. That would effectively clear JScope, you, and myself. I'm not at all comfortable clearing you and JScope just yet.

Then she catches up at some point?

Not really. I talked to her on AIM and mentioned how I thought RW said something, but couldn't find it and she found it for me.

Fixed. >.<

[Zmd]

Zaphod, if you are truly town, it's likely that JScope is scum.

Ok, here's an idea. DGB know that I'd never put one of these up by my own choice if I were scum and she were in the game because it screwed us over in Medeival. (Also gives my opinions for later use after I'm lynched)

SCUM LIST!

Likely scum:
Zaphod Beeblebrox
J-Scope

Next scummiest:
nyballosulgniirkps
Ojando

Neutral:
Ortohoops

Town Lean:
Frog Dodging

Town:
PoketheAlpaca
Zmd

Scummiest at the top, towniest at the bottom.

I'd be ok lynching Zaphod or JScope. I'd be willing to lynch ny. I could compromise on Ojando or Ortohoops if needed. I will NOT vote FD or PtA (or myself obviously).

Oh, and can I ask for the case against me now that I don't have to search through Walls-O-Text to find things anyone says?

[Zmd]

I'd be ok lynching Zaphod or JScope. I'd be willing to lynch ny. I could compromise on Ojando or Ortohoops if needed.

Any new reasons? Can you re-list your old reasons?

Anti-RW and quick to agree with what we thought was a catch.

Ok, here's an idea. DGB know that I'd never put one of these up by my own choice if I were scum and she were in the game because it screwed us over in Medieval. (Also gives my opinions for later use after I'm lynched)

WIFOM! You are scum pushing the WIFOM card. Which you also did in Medieval, by stating that the zwet lynch was scum driven. Which it was, ALL the scum was on it.

Zaphod, if you are truly town, it's likely that JScope is scum.

Which contradicts:

SCUM LIST!

Likely scum:
Zaphod Beeblebrox
J-Scope

I smell a rat and I am ready to hammer you for it.

First, when the hell is MS going to stop being so scared of WIFOM and call every little thing "OMG SCUM WIFOM"?

Second, no contradiction. IF you are town, JScope is likely scum. I personally have you as my top suspect, but I definitely could be wrong. So if I'm wrong and you are town, JScope is a good choice for a lynch.

TO restate.

I believe that Zmd is scum for throwing a false track (his scum list) which he probably designed to be especially misleading since he got caught by it in Medieval Mafia.

Nah, it's actual suspicions.

Another thing he did in that game was to participate in a full-scumteam Day 1 bus'ing of zwet. He specifically said that the zwet wagon was scum-driven (that's his attempt as scum to WIFOM the town).

I was being a dick and showing Camn that my Gambit had merit and only failed originally because it was scum that I was looking at and Zwet was town there, so it worked. The whole scum team was on there. I meant to go back to it at endgame, but I think I forgot. But what's that have to do with this game. *Continues reading*

I perceive another similar attempt to WIFOM us, this time, by providing a scumlist.

So am I scum with you or JScope? lol

I am as certain as could be that Zmd is scum.

He must die.

Whoever is willing to put him at L-1, I will hammer.

Fair enough, this lynch was coming forever ago. I'm lucky as hell to still be alive.

Btw, my no claim was an attempt to draw a scum kill before. I'm just a VT. I posted here that I was going to try the Gambit for the first time. Did it in a game in SA shortly after that post and was quicklynched, so failed miserably. I guess it's a bad idea. Supposed to stop a lynch and draw a NK at the same time, but I didn't think it through.

For what it's worth,

Vote JScope

DGB seems to be honestly looking for scum. JScope seems happy to just ride through the game.

JScope is scum with ny.

[Zmd]

I know WIFOM that's planted by scum, from the regular day to day WIFOM. Your kind of WIFOM is scum-planted WIFOM.

Nah, my WIFOM in this game was trying to make scum think I was a big scary power role. XD

No, zwet was scum, you were scum. What you say makes no sense and is in no way related to my postulate, which is that you like to plant WIFOM as scum.

No, the scum team was me, Rogue (Shea), Scot, and Hascow. Zwet wasn't part of it.

I do like to plant WIFOM as scum though. Let's look at the same game. I successfully connected myself to Yos, one of the towniest players in the game, which led to him being vidged, I believe. Tried to connect myself to Camn, Tajo, and Farside as well but wasn't quite as successful.

Such as declaring that the zwet wagon was scum-driven.

When zwet was scum, and being bus'ed by his entire scum team, including you.

Actually, I was making a true statement. Zwet was town and his wagon was scum driven.

I'm not buying that. It was a soft fakeclaim. Otherwise, wou would in fact have been killed for it.

I was too likely of a lynch target for scum to kill me. And if I was soft fakeclaiming, wouldn't I have claimed for real now instead of claiming vanilla (OMG WIFOM!)?

And I honestly found some! YOU!

Sorry to disappoint you, but according to our Role PM, we are town.

[Zmd]

Heh, I wasn't in that game.

Interested to see what Tajo doesn't like.

[Zmd]

JScope, RW was town. There's a good chance scum was on the wagon.

*Looks for final Vote Count*

Votecount as of post 374:

Raging Wishbone

:

5

:Zaphod Beeblebrox, J-Scope, Zmd, nyballosulgniirkps, Ojando
Zmd:

2

:Frog Dodging, Ortohoops,
J-Scope:

1

:Raging Wishbone


not voting:

1

:PoketheAlpaca,

JScope and ny fit as scum here.

PtA, why no vote?

I like the analysis of the lurking, particularly as regards to nyballs. They're very experienced players and it's unlikely scum would want to kill without their input.

A quick search will reveal that I was present and accounted for on the site during both of those two intervals, and on several occasions. My partner(springlullaby), however, was not... As long as one of us was, though, I think that renders the argument null.

How does that refute the point? If FD is right, wouldn't you want Spring's input before killing?

Town Lean:
Frog Dodging

Town:
PoketheAlpaca
Zmd

In light of the two serial killer flips, why do you only put Frog Dodging in the "Town Lean" category?

Because it's my read on them, but less so than PtA or obviously myself.

JScope is scum with ny.

Fuck. What gave us away?

Nice.

@ZMD,

some of your defense to the case on you yesterday was meta information. I thought you said something about Zazie always doing a giant catch up post whenever she comes back into a game. You've been talking to her it would appear and yet she hasn't done any of that.

Yeah, Zazie usually makes like 50 short posts to catch up on games. I think this hydra's gonna be 95% Kmd though if not 100%. Of course I'd love to see Zazie in this game, but that probably won't happen.

Also you said you don't play like this as scum. Something to extent of you believe you are better or more confident in pushing your suspicions as scum. So you are better at pushing cases on people when you already know the outcome and its effect on your faction. You have not be giving any real big or well thought out cases on other players. You aren't pushing but at the same time you don't really seem to be talking about or questioning your reads in the game that much. You mention what you read but you really don't go into detail why.

This is because I'm a gut player. I make cases when I want to convince people, not when I want to figure things out. I'm not certain enough to be trying to convince anyone of anything. And my town reads (you and FD) are much stronger than my scum reads.

Basically there isn't a great way for us to truly tell how certain you are of your cases without you talking about them. There is no way you can assert you are less or more confident, less or more scum, without reason. Either I am misunderstanding your defence or there seems to be a hole in it. I also rather dislike the idea of a defence based around "Oh I wouldn't do this as scum". You have not shown us any links or proof of that point and there is no way we can tell you aren't acting this way to specifically use your meta to your advantage.

Most of the people here have played with me and can use that meta. My computer is too slow to go get links all over the place. If you want an example of something specific though, I don't mind taking the time to find it.

Also I like I said before that definatly seemed like a soft claim to me.

It was. I wanted scum to pick it up.

[Zmd]

Ojando, here is the link. I don't know if it will let you view the page without buying an account or not, but if it does, I think clicking my name in the OP will show my post history. I was almost lynched 2 of the first 3 days and on Day 4 tried my refuse to claim Gambit. After that, I softclaimed a power role. Then I flat out said I was a power role. After being asked (or told XD) to claim about 5 more times, I finally said I was a vanilla. You'll see that I eventually was lynched and did flip vanilla.

About the RW "catch". Zazie had not been looking at the game at all. I mentioned the game on AIM. Something along the lines of "RW is obvscum in Double Head. They claimed doc, but something they said about FD doesn't match that." Zazie looked at the game and found that post. I didn't want to take credit for a catch that wasn't mine, so Zazie posted.

[Zmd]

If you're town, then it's JScope and ny.

[Zmd]

It was. I wanted scum to pick it up.

I'm not buying your last statement.

k, let's play this WIFOM game then. Why do you think I softclaimed while refusing to claim, just to come back and claim vanilla? How would that benefit me as scum. Why not just claim a power role?

Can you give me a contrary reason to why you included the yet? Also you directly said you would not claim close to lynch and it appears you indeed have claimed while you were at L-3 too. Why the change of plans there?

The "yet" implied that I may be a power role who can get useful info later. But scum weren't going to worry about it because I'm such a likely lynch.

I changed my mind because the Gambit failed so hard on SA when I tried it.

[Zmd]

More Zaphod hate. And a lot of suspects.

Ojando and Ortohoops aren't really "suspects" in the same way as JScope and ny. The only things on Zaphod I see as scummy are the earlier exchange with Trotsky and the fact that they were on the RW lynch with a "nice catch" line after Zazie found that terrible post RW made.

Dont like the yet.

Ok..? Worded poorly I guess..?

So, your suspicions of Zaphod just dissapared because Zaphod just said that she likes you are not lurking or am I missing something here?.

No, I think it was actually when DGB was calling me scum that she pinged my towndar.

What about if she is scum with you, KMD?

Oh shit. I didn't consider that. Oh, wait. I already know I'm town. Seriously, bad attack. Why would I factor in that possibility when I'm trying to either convince someone I think is town that I'm town or help them find scum after I die by sharing my opinions?

Also, this is important, so I'm gonna make sure it's seen before the hammer gets dropped:

JSCOPE AND NY ARE SCUM

k, you guys can hammer if you want.

[Zmd]

JSCOPE AND NY ARE SCUM

Edited for noticability.

[Zmd]

JScope, I'm a gut player. I don't find scum by analyzing posts. Your reason 1 and 2 are actually one reason. The vote analysis. The one analysis tool I've found useful in the past. And looking at the RW lynch strengthens the case on both you and ny (and Zaphod).

JScope is defending ny pretty strongly though. I'll be honest, it has me second guessing on the connection. Maybe it's JScope and one of Ojando/Ortohoops? But now I'm probably just thinking too much..

Ojando, JScope pretty much has to be scum. Why do I think so? Gut. Why do I want you to think so? Scummy voting record, pushed RW hard, playing similarly to Alpha.

If JScope survives to endgame, I'm gonna be pissed. They are obvscum.