DHSDSM beta: Game Over.

[Apples and Banana]

It should be obvious which I be in my hydra when since Tajo's play style is different from mine and I make lawls. Though should we make it a policy to identify who is who when? Feels a little against the spirit of things so i can't decide.

it is optimal that the two heads of a hydra can't be told apart, so that any opinions can't be tied to one player or the other. differences in opinion within the hydras can potentially be exploited by scum.

That will lead to lurking, though.

If my partner says something that is questioned/attacked, then I can't post until she does without a) avoiding the issue, looking scummy or b) saying its a different head.

[Apples and Banana]

Wait...are we being voted for the comment about wanting to tell the heads apart? If xofelf makes a post, and before we talk about it, I come online and there's a bunch of questions surrounding her post, I'm going to let her answer them. But if I have something else to comment on, I will. Hence wanting the poster to be differentiable, in my opinion.

Having said that, I agree with Yosariwen's point about PokertheAlpaca.

Vote: Poker

[Apples and Banana]

Why has apples and bananas wagon died? Because they decided to try to look like they're playing the game? All they did was agree with Yosariwen's point and hide behind them. Agreeing is fine. Wagoning is fine. No original thinking = scum.

You expect all 12 hydras in the game to all have completely original thoughts on different players by page

TWO

? Its a game where conserving posts is essential, and you're trying to say I'm Scum for not having said much by page TWO?

[Apples and Banana]

Sorry, I've been putting my efforts into the other game, since its time-based. I'm not going to be claiming in this post, since I haven't properly defended myself from the attacks on me, though. Warning, this will be a fairly long post, as I PBPA the game thus far.

0 - Mod post
1 - Mod post
2 - Mod post
3 - Mod post
4 - Mod post
5 - Mod post
6 - Random
7 - Random
8 - Random
9 - Random
10 - Votes Pesco Light for using a post to vote the Mod, calls it a 'mega scumtell', which is almost certainly a huge exaggeration
11 - Votes Wishbone since he has never played/modded with anyone in that hydra
12 - Asking a confirmatory question to Poker, trying to set up the basis for a read on Poker
13 - Random
14 - Uses a post for a "Yes, I have", which seems like a waste
15 - Another waste of a post, asking about PF's info on them, that invites yet another wasted post in the answer
16 - Mod post
17 - Random
18 - Random
19 - Posts he can't read hydras, which seems odd considering he signed up for TWO hydra games simultaneously
20 - Points out what he thinks is an SK slip, in what was just a random vote
21 - Starts the theory discussion about signing posts, explains the SK 'slip' was just random posting
22 - Posts mixed opinions about the signing posts, makes a random vote, and uses the same post to ask for less fluff.

FoS: Wishbone

23 - Pointing out the above hypocricy in 22
24 - Commenting on the heads vs hydra discussion
25 - Continuing the heads vs hydra discussion
26 - Continuing the heads vs hydra discussion, points out he'll be signing posts
27 - Continuing the heads vs hydra discussion, points out he'll differ to his other head. At this point, it feels like his posts are being made for the sake of posting.

FoS: Trotsky

28 - Completely useless, waste of a post.

FoS: Poker

29 - Votes me for "discussing semantics without scumhunting"; :goodposting:
30 - Double-posts less than an hour after 29, which seems like a waste, but at least uses the post well
31 - Strawmans my argument about heads vs hydras, and votes me for it, even though he claims to have a "gut scum read" on a RW post.

FoS: Pesco Light

32 - Points on that 31 seems to vote on the weaker of the two points
33 - Keeps strawmanning my point, and calling it scummier than a gut read
34 - Continuing the heads vs hydra discussion
35 - Plays off 15 as "playful banter"
36 - Responds well to 33 and 35
37 - Uses a post for the sole purpose of asking if random votes are a waste of a post.

FoS: Ortohoops

38 - Responds to 37 nicely, though I feel it would have been better to keep this response saved until he had more to post
39 - Wasting another post, as he defends the fact he wasted a post
40 - Makes what looks like a random vote on Trotsky, which would be out of place in a NORMAL game, let alone one where its best to conserve post count
41 - Votes me for "simultaneously wasting posts and providing a reason to lurk", even though lurking isn't bad in this game
42 - Very nice post where he compiles points against Poke, comments on the heads vs hydra discussion, and points out his thoughts on lurking vs spamming in this game
43 - Mod post
44 - Pointing out the strawman in Pesco's logic, following Yos' vote on Poke
45 - Comments on how many NKs we should aim to allow, comments on heads vs hydras, joins the Poke wagon
46 - Another waste of a post, as he answers a question from the random stage, tries to explain that a "Yes, I have" post isn't a watste, and asks a question about something shafted pointed out
47 - Removes his partner's vote on me, voices his opinion on how many action phases
48 -

Yet another

absolute waste of a post from Poke; very happy with my vote at this point
49 - Another strawman at my argument, a ridiculous FoS to anyone who signs their posts. I'm getting a bad vibe from Pesco Light.
50 - Finally a post from Poke that isn't a waste
51 - Points out he dislikes not being able to post a lot, and says he dislikes the rules, when he knew what he was signing up for. Possible excuse to either not post very much of post more than needed.
52 - Very nice post, comments on all the players
53 - Mod post
54 - Reasonless wagon jump onto Poke
55 - Votes Poke for bad logic. He wastes posts, THAT'S scummy. Making an analysis on the game thus far, not so much
56 - Asks about my wagon thus far, points out no original thinking on my part thus far, which is a valid point
57 - Jumps back on my wagon
58 - Votes me for jumping on the Poke wagon, points out KScope's meta allows him to jump on wagons, when my meta is someone who often votes without giving reasons, and wagons a ton Day 1. Ortohoops, who made this post?
59 - Undoes his other head's vote, jumps back on my wagon. This is the same person that said there should be no perceivable difference between the heads.
60 - Talks about the wagon on me without commiting for or against it, points out he finds Poke very scummy
61 - Questions Frog about his reasons for not posting much
62 - Points out that he doesn't see the case on me, he doesn't like Ortohoops wagon-hopping and hypocrisy. :goodposting:
63 - Pressures Poke, asks Orto how the Poke wagon was any more opportunistic than mine
64 - This was a bad post by me, where I waste a post asking a question about one thing shafted said
65 - Explains the rationale for his list/comments of everyone
66 - Points out how bad of a post 64 was
67 - Lurker-votes Hogfather
68 - Explains that he thinks wasting posts isn't scummy, and that Scum actually probably won't do it...WHAT? I think he knows exactly if the Scum are or aren't wasting posts.

Unvote, Vote: Ortohoops

69 - Mod post
70 - Claims I "make a fine lynch today"
71 - Explains the SK/Vig thing from earlier, votes Zaphod, points out my "wagon is good too", which just looks like paving the way to jump on down the road
72 - Wastes a post correcting what looks like a nice freudian slip in 73
73 - Very nice, concise, post which sums up their views in the past page or so. This is what the Town should strive for all posts to be, in my opinion.
74 - Another post similar to Frog's 73, commenting on a few things
75 - Jumps on my wagon
76 - Mod post
77 - Another reasonless wagon post, jumping on to the new biggest wagon, right after the vote count, and attemps to put me at L-1
78 - Unvotes me to create a buffer in case of a scumkill
79 - Double post, since 78 wasn't under the hydra account
80 - Posts under the J-Scope account, doesn't vote me
81 - Revotes me.
82 - Pipes in out of nowhere, having done shit all in terms of posting all game, that she is willing to hammer me
83 - Useless double-post, since she didn't vote
84 - Points out how they think its better to hammer rather than unvote and start a new wagon, something I think is preposterous.
85 - Asks other people about how they feel about my wagon
86 - Points out how I'm active lurking, which I don't deny, but that he's waiting for something from me before voting me again
87 - Mod post
88 - 'I'm replacing in!' post
89 - Talks about wanting me hammered in 24 hours
90 - Thinks I'm Scum since Scum haven't killed someone to try and kill me, despite the fact I think I'm off of L-1.
91 - Wants me lynched for not posting
92 - Points out its probably better to focus on Alpha, yet votes me for not having said much in this game, putting me at L-1

---

All in all:

FoS: Poke, Zaphod, Wishbone, Pesco
Unvote, Vote: Ortohoops

[Apples and Banana]

That aside, A&B, what exactly did youhope to accomplish with that post?
Were you trying to prove that you have read the game?
Because I see a lot of "PBP", and not so much "A".

QFT.

Really? On all the important and/or big posts, I commented on whether I liked the post or not, how I felt about it, and/or if I felt it was scummy.

31 - Strawmans my argument about heads vs hydras, and votes me for it, even though he claims to have a "gut scum read" on a RW post. FoS: Pesco Light

Is that really a strawman? He’s saying that you should be able to comment on whatever your other half said, which still allows the other half to enter in later and comment in their own words.

It sounded like you were originally trying to avoid having to make any acknowledgement for something your other half said. Scum would love to be able to get away with that; putting all the scumtells on one half but trying to keep the other respectable and the one you vote for or not.

If someone replaces into a game, they usually cannot explain their predecessor's behaviour, and they're not expected to. After all, they may have the same role, but no one can be expected to explain why someone else said or did something.

Why is it any different in this game? Why should one person be expected to explain why another said/did something, just because they share the same role? Especially if people want the heads to be indifferentiable, in which case the options for the head that isn't being questioned are to not post, or to completely ignore the question.

68 - Explains that he thinks wasting posts isn't scummy, and that Scum actually probably won't do it...WHAT? I think he knows exactly if the Scum are or aren't wasting posts.

Do you have a different theory?

Well, I think its silly to say that we should look for Scum in the people NOT wasting posts, since that goes directly against what would serve them best. People who waste posts in this game are pseudo-equivalent to lurkers in a normal game - sure, they're not all Scum, but lurking is scummy.

Apples, seriously, that was totally worthless. Claim or die please.

Really? And yet there's absolutely no reasons you can give to support that theory? So no, I'm not going to claim.

I've already explained my stance on the value of posts. We're not even 5 pages into the game and we almost have a lynch - the town should hypothetically be aiming for 2-3 lynches per action phase, and we should be able to do it comfortably.

Are you implying that I'm good as lynched? As I'm sure you know, not all wagons lead to a lynch, especially if it was a lurker lynch more than anything else. Or maybe you submitted a kill, and are just waiting for it to go through?

Lets make a safe presumption and say we only lynch twice before page 13 - scum have had their kill, and the Sk/vig has one too. We're down to 10 players, and the next phase still has 10 pages, where we should easily be able to lynch 2-3 players again with more information in the game. I really think we don't need to be so hasty, and certainly don't think the basis of cases should be determined by their signal:noise ratio, unless it's substancial.

That's true. But without the wasted posts, maybe we could lynch 3-4 times. What you're saying is like me saying, in a normal game, "We have 6 weeks to lynch someone, so the people that only post once a week still give us enough information to lynch someone by the end of the day. I think Scum are the ones posting a lot."

Now, addressing your post more specifically; every time you generate suspicion on someone, you're basing it on the thought that scum are more likely to do x than town.

Congratulations, you just DEFINED a scumtell.

The way you come to the conclusion I'm scum, is on the basis of this logic. It's simple - I think scum are more likely to avoid fluff posting early on, and take the opposite stance.

But posting fluff early on DIRECTLY helps them win.

It's an easy way to force suspicion on players - they're preying on the paranoia of the town. I don't think scum would be stupid enough to come in and make fluff posts to start the game. Why would they want the early attention when they don't even know how hasty the town is going to be with post wasting? It's a stupid risk to jump in the limelight like that, and it's even stupider to not be aware that fluff posts would put them under pressure.

Do you also think that Scum wouldn't lurk in a normal game, for those same reasons?

This is why I think scum would take the stance of jumping on

anything

that could be interpretted as a slight waste.

Which I'm not doing, if that's what you're implying.

[Apples and Banana]

A&B refuses to claim. We can lynch him now.

This post ^^^

Also, not posting under your hydra name is uber confusing.

And when I saw that, I claimed.

And sorry, I'll make an effort to use this account.

[Apples and Banana]

Whether I am Vig or SK, I still provide an extra kill to the Town every cycle.

[Apples and Banana]

Whether I am Vig or SK, I still provide an extra kill to the Town every cycle.

I take this as confirmation that you are a SK.

Hammer please before he kills a townie.

I've submitted a kill for this cycle anyways. Don't waste any more posts on my wagon, let me help hunt for the actual Scumgroup.