DHSDSM alpha: Game Over.

[Saunt Adelaus]

Apples and Banana, Tracker, was killed.

Votecount as of post 549

Zmd:

3

:J-Scope, nyballosulgniirkps, Raging Wishbone,
Raging Wishbone:

2

:Zmd, Zaphod Beeblebrox,

not voting:

1

:Ortohoops,

while 6 are alive, 4 votes will lynch

[Raging Wishbone]

Unvote: ZMD

We are running out of townies, and I aint playing Survivor anymore... policy lynch = bad!

@Hoops your link to an ethics discussion was SPOT on..

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 3&start=75

Who here wants to keep Zaphod/DGB in the game and let her win whether town or scum because she wrote "she is leaving mafiascum because people accuse her of being scum when she is town." - Hopps you supported my posts regarding this matter, so you really cant win if you are scum either can you? I mean you can win, but then you gotta answer ethics questions right?

I absolutely can NOT vote for either of them because of this! I dont want her to leave because she gets accussed of being scum, when she is town! And I agree with everything Hoops wrote.

Is this unfair, cheating? Anyone care to chime in...

@ZMD - Pull your head out of your ass beacuse if you end up in endgame, playing Survivor you are gonna loose TOWN this game! You are not reading enough, you are not paying attention, you act so scummy at times, and you have no idea when you are at l1 or l2... Genius we dont vote who we like or dont like out of this game, we vote for who is scum... You just want to play "Survivor" and I'm telling you right now, you will cost us this game.

[J-Scope]

Zaphod is my second choice for a lynch. I feel that they didn't contribute to the Yos-Nuwen wagon discussion to the extent that they should have based on how they have portrayed themselves during this game, particularly Plum who had talked about the wagon but never came to a conclusion on Nuwen calling out the crumb being a scum tell or not.

After I gave Yosariwen some headroom to hunt scum, they didn't take the opportunity, but rather dug themselves in the defensive position.

This is true but it happened late in the day after Yos-Nuwen defended several points, but Zaphod did not comment on those points. I find it strange that Zaphod would promote scumhunting without debating the biggest wagon of the day.

For instance, Zaphod-Plum had two specific insights into the Yos-case that she graced the surface of in Post 159. In neither case did she follow up, question Yos-Nuwen, or come to a similar/different conclusion.

1.

Nuwen's explanation doesn't make much sense, but then again as scum the best thing to do would be to not mention it outside the scum quicktopic and kill Incamn.

2.

Why would you assume something before you have reason to assume it? I'd say that Yosariwen pointing out the breadcrumb thus signaling to the scum "HEY-O POWER ROLE HERE" is a much better reason for the kill than to frame 5 people on a bandwagon.

Why are you assuming it was a scum kill, Frog? Especally considering that there were 5 votes on the wagon, I wouldn't at all be surprised if the Incamn kill was a compulsive vig (remember, if there is a compulsive vig, that role has to kill every single action phase, every 96 hours.)

This ALSO makes me twitch. I would guess, if I had to, that Incamn was a kill o' scum.

In the next few posts both sides of Zaphod say they think Yos-Nuwen is likely town, but neither explain WHY. It had seemed like Plum wanted to really explore points 1 and 2 from above but never did. Yos-Nuwen got to L-1 by the time Zaphod called them town and asked them to place a vote. Zaphod also tried to further two wagons (RW and A&B), so it's possible that they were trying to "vote everyone (but Yos-Nuwen) under the sun".

--------------
That being said, I still prefer a ZMD lynch today. RW sums up some good reasons why in 549. I agree that it looked like ZMD played to survive in day 1. I place more value on whether or not someone investigated/questioned/pushed the Yos-Nuwen wagon rather than if you voted them or not.

Also, Ortohoops is sure town for their pressure on Yos.

Nyballs has looked town so far, I can elaborate if necessary, but Pesco-Light actually seemed to vote for Yos-Nuwen more as a warning because Nuwen wanted to use probability to catch scum power roles. Hard to say if Pesco thought that was scummy or just stupid. I thought their involvement on the Yos-Nuwen wagon was a null tell, in other words. It probably has given Nyballs some slack to play loose and aggressive, but even that's looked normal pro-town behavior.

RW I have to read again. I want to make sure I'm not confusing games.

[Zmd]

You know I just don't see you wanting to do anything but go with the "policy lynch" plan... and I disagree with tha plan.

Who is policy lynching?

The whole "plan" is quicklynching so that the scum don't get to kill.

RW, how do we benefit from allowing scum to continue to kill instead of rushing to avoid that?

We, as a town, are the only one's who decide who dies under this plan. And why would I agree to it as scum, knowing that I probably won't live very long under this plan. Your reluctance to follow the plan is quite noticable.

I still don't understand why you voted Yo/nuwen, when you clearly stated a few weeks ago we were scum.

Simple really. There's more than one scum. Yos was suspicious too. Yos was at L-First, you weren't even close. The Yos lynch was just as good as yours. And they were scum, so it worked out. I'm not seeing the problem.

Really though. Just because I "clearly state" suspicions on one player means all others are town? No. We call that tunnel vision. I try to avoid that.

You know what also really intrigues me, You both seem to have one voice and shoveling the same comments. Can you please tell me if both partners are active and who wrote this last post? - ww

Good observation. Zaz made the first two posts of the game. Everything else has been me, Kmd.

The more and more I read your posts in solation Zmd and

the other comments people have made on your alignment

the more you reek of scum. Since it seems we are doing the policy lynch thing, and Zmd has the most votes...

Vote: ZMD

Other people say I'm scum! They MUST be right!

In all seriousness though, why are you following a plan you just disagreed with? Or was that the other head?

I think this is the exchange that bothers me most... ZMD claims to want to lynch good candidates, however they dont want to lynch "good" candidates, they only want to lynch anyone who is easy to lynch. They dont care if they lynch townie or scum, they just want to survive... if we didn't already have a lynched VIG, I would swear they were Serial Killers.

As far as a conncetion to Yos, reading so far, this is the closest thing I can find; the whole exchange with SexEd... Why does Zmd, tell DGB not to point out the scumtell on Yos/Nuwen...why does ZMD never tell us a scumtell on yos/Nuwen... Why does ZMD try to derail DGB's early line of questioning?

I'm not sure ZMD is the right lynch, however my partner was... Also, out of all the remaining Townies, Zmd is on the top of those I think may be scum. I think this is s good lynch.

Someone please Hammer this Scum!

Actually, I've been pretty clear on my stances. I said I was against an A&B lynch (I see that they were killed). I said I was against an Ortohoops lynch (still am). I also wouldn't like an ny lynch. I WOULD support a lynch of you, JScope, or Zaphod in that order. Preferably not Zaphod yet though. I fail to see how I'd take any lynch.

The meta scumtell shouldn't have been pointed out if it hadn't been dropped yet because that would have led to Yos and Nuwen trying to avoid those tells, making them useless. Pretty obvious from my PoV. *shrug*

Pointing out the breadcrumb was enough of a tell for me.

What exactly are you trying to say I "derailed"?

And you aren't sure it's the right lynch and yet you want me hammered and are prepared to confidently call me scum? Seriously?

@ZMD - Pull your head out of your ass beacuse if you end up in endgame, playing Survivor you are gonna loose TOWN this game! You are not reading enough, you are not paying attention, you act so scummy at times, and you have no idea when you are at l1 or l2... Genius we dont vote who we like or dont like out of this game, we vote for who is scum... You just want to play "Survivor" and I'm telling you right now, you will cost us this game.

I'm reading much more than I did very early in the game. I'm active and have strong opinions. I'm not going to sit back and take a lynch for no reason.

[Raging Wishbone]

And you aren't sure it's the right lynch and yet you want me hammered and are prepared to confidently call me scum? Seriously?

@ZMD - Pull your head out of your ass beacuse if you end up in endgame, playing Survivor you are gonna loose TOWN this game! You are not reading enough, you are not paying attention, you act so scummy at times, and you have no idea when you are at l1 or l2... Genius we dont vote who we like or dont like out of this game, we vote for who is scum... You just want to play "Survivor" and I'm telling you right now, you will cost us this game.

I'm reading much more than I did very early in the game. I'm active and have strong opinions. I'm not going to sit back and take a lynch for no reason.

Do you read at all ZMD? I unvoted you! I don;'t want you hammed... Why did you write I wanted you hammered? I do think you are an idiot and if this town lets you go into end game scum will destroy you.

You did not answer my most important question...tis an Ethics question! If DGB/Plum or Hoops win as scum have they violated a code of ethics according to you standards?

[Raging Wishbone]

EBWOP

Meh, actually meebe, I am the idiot since I can't work a tag to save me life...lol

And you aren't sure it's the right lynch and yet you want me hammered and are prepared to confidently call me scum? Seriously?

@ZMD - Pull your head out of your ass beacuse if you end up in endgame, playing Survivor you are gonna loose TOWN this game! You are not reading enough, you are not paying attention, you act so scummy at times, and you have no idea when you are at l1 or l2... Genius we dont vote who we like or dont like out of this game, we vote for who is scum... You just want to play "Survivor" and I'm telling you right now, you will cost us this game.

I'm reading much more than I did very early in the game. I'm active and have strong opinions. I'm not going to sit back and take a lynch for no reason.

Do you read at all ZMD? I unvoted you! I don;'t want you hammed... Why did you write I wanted you hammered? I do think you are an idiot and if this town lets you go into end game scum will destroy you.

You did not answer my most important question...tis an Ethics question! If DGB/Plum or Hoops win as scum have they violated a code of ethics according to you standards?

[Ortohoops]

I was incorrect about A&B, sorry. I found quite a few things he did scummy (they were tbh) and thought he was last-minute gambiting scum.

I've done a kind of re-read and I agree with J-Scope's 552 strongly, which makes me think he is town. I would go a Zmd then Zaphod lynch. I'm wary of tunneling on DGB now (:D) but I've just never had any pro-town epiphanies with them this game.

I'm also a little wary of the fact I've only seen springlullaby in two games before, one in which she was mafia and one in which she was SK. I've no idea what her town meta is. That said Pesco Light seemed fairly town to me.

I'm also giving Raging the benefit of the doubt at this stage. He'd probably be my third lynch choice I guess.

So...Zmd then Zaphod I think.

[Raging Wishbone]

Hey Hoops, please answer my ethics question.. neither you or Zaphod can win as scum based on the entire ethics discussion, right? I mean you can win, but playing a card that DGB will leave this sight because she was accused of being scum when she is in fact town is an ethics question. YOU pointed out the thread, so I would really love to hear your thoughts on the matter.

[Ortohoops]

DGB didn't specifically refer to it in this game did she?

And just because she complains of getting wagoned when town doesn't mean if she gets wagoned this game, she is town. I am of the opinion that, yes, that thread was partly influencing my judgement on DGB but it may also be that I find her unjustly suspect in general. Still, it's clearly not influencing my judgement- her and Plum are my second choice for a lynch.

[Raging Wishbone]

DGB didn't specifically refer to it in this game did she?

And just because she complains of getting wagoned when town doesn't mean if she gets wagoned this game, she is town. I am of the opinion that, yes, that thread was partly influencing my judgement on DGB but it may also be that I find her unjustly suspect in general. Still, it's clearly not influencing my judgement- her and Plum are my second choice for a lynch.

meh, semantics yeah she did, I thought that is why you gave me the Ethics thread link...cause you thought it would be wrong for either me, her, or NOW you to use that card to win this game. A statement implied or one spoken with conviction, meh, they should mean something yeah?

Why did you write she did not mention it in this thread? (we can meta and define or interpret semantics yeah?) She absolutely implied it or spoke/wrote with it in conviction at least, as far as I am concerned neither you or dgb/plum can win as scum... Do you agree, I mean you can both win, but I will never stop oosting in the ethics thread about it!

I gave you and dgb/plum a free pass because I did not want DGB to leave mafiascum... I can sleep at night losing on that note!

[Ortohoops]

um...what the hell are you talking about?

the ethics thread

I

linked to was re: V/LA, and re: SensFan...nothing to do with DGB

[Ortohoops]

Are you making the point that saying she gets unfairly wagoned in every game in an ethics thread is unethical for all her ongoing/subsequent games?

[Raging Wishbone]

Are you making the point that saying she gets unfairly wagoned in every game in an ethics thread is unethical for all her ongoing/subsequent games?

no, the point I am making is she wrote the comment that she is leaving mafiascum because she gets accused of being scum when she is town. We had this discussion or at least me and your partner did and he agreed.

So, my question is ethically speaking would this be a piss-poor way to win?

I mean we have our choice, vote dgb scum and she leaves the sight for ever or vote her town and she will stay? Again, we already had this discussion and you seemed to agree and pointed me to the ethics thread.... so you are now in the same position as her.

[Ortohoops]

There is no dilemma here. She has not said for this game "vote me and I'll leave site". If she had, I would be lynching her as a number one priority. I don't believe she said that in any external threads either, she just claims she is getting tunneled on with poor logic, which seems to be a subjective determination. Either way it has no relevance to this game as far as I can see.

Anyway, the decision needs to be made.

Vote: Zmd

L-1

[Raging Wishbone]

There is no dilemma here. She has not said for this game "vote me and I'll leave site". If she had, I would be lynching her as a number one priority. I don't believe she said that in any external threads either, she just claims she is getting tunneled on with poor logic, which seems to be a subjective determination. Either way it has no relevance to this game as far as I can see.

Anyway, the decision needs to be made.

Vote: Zmd

L-1

sorry Hoops can you please just agree or disagree with this...it is a yes or no question. Ethically speaking based on the dialog we have had this game, you can not win "win" as scum, yes or no?

[Raging Wishbone]

There is no dilemma here. She has not said for this game "vote me and I'll leave site". If she had, I would be lynching her as a number one priority. I don't believe she said that in any external threads either, she just claims she is getting tunneled on with poor logic, which seems to be a subjective determination. Either way it has no relevance to this game as far as I can see.

Anyway, the decision needs to be made.

Vote: Zmd

L-1

sorry Hoops can you please just agree or disagree with this...it is a yes or no question. Ethically speaking based on the dialog we have had this game, you can not win "win" as scum, yes or no?

[Ortohoops]

We cannot win as scum in this game, but that is not because of an ethical issue

I see the ethical issue with DGB as largely irrelevant because if she is scum I don't see her living to end-game. I might feel a little bit resentful if I felt less inclined to vote her in a certain game because of her complaints about being targeted too much while town, but that's life I suppose (and is not currently relevant to this game).

[Raging Wishbone]

We cannot win as scum in this game, but that is not because of an ethical issue

I see the ethical issue with DGB as largely irrelevant because if she is scum I don't see her living to end-game. I might feel a little bit resentful if I felt less inclined to vote her in a certain game because of her complaints about being targeted too much while town, but that's life I suppose (and is not currently relevant to this game).

Alright Bro or sis...lol, who am I talking/posting with anyway Hoops or Orto, lol...

VOTE: ZMD

[ortolan]

moi

[Saunt Adelaus]

Votecount as of post 568

Zmd:

4

:J-Scope, nyballosulgniirkps, Ortohoops, Raging Wishbone,
Raging Wishbone:

2

:Zmd, Zaphod Beeblebrox,

not voting:

0

:

while 6 are alive, 4 votes will lynch

Zmd, Townie, was lynched on Sat May 09, 2009 at 8:14 am

[Ortohoops]

Vote: Zaphod Beeblebrox

[Raging Wishbone]

Gah, was just about to point out ZMD's more likely town because of his interaction with A&B. Should've gotten on this game sooner.

I believe we're in twilight now, otherwise I'd vote Zaphod as well. I don't understand Walt inclination to be "moral" and let her live 'cause she's pissed off at the site, DGB isn't a little girl and I'm sure she doesn't want wins handed to her on a silver platter as some sort of an attempt to soothe her. Orthoops I'm pretty sure is town, and nybalajasldgjas is prob town as well due to the part their predeccesors took on the yoswagon. So my preferred order is Zaphod, then J-scope, then probably nybazxklgjsdlkgnalkhdgn.

-RR

[Raging Wishbone]

We've got time to end this before scum gets another kill in if we're quick about things (

Mod

, please try and make twilights last closer to 6 hours than 18, as time is of the essence in determining the result of this game), so I believe we should have 3 more lynches this action phase.

Getting to the next phase with 3 alive means we lose, getting to it with more means we flat out lose our last lynch. No amount of discussion is worth this, so let's not let talk get in the way of lynching.

Just in the off chance it'll count,

vote Zaphod

.

[ortolan]

Today we can either do one or three lynches. It will depend on who posts. I'm thinking three lynches is likely to be practically difficult, in which case we will need to do one, wait till the kill gets committed tomorrow, then do the last.

Also, because I want to know this for both games:

Mod: If someone submits a kill, will this kill go through no matter what within 6 to 18 hours? E.g. what if they submit a kill then 3 hours later get lynched. Will that kill resolve before they get lynched, or still resolve after they get lynched, or not resolve at all?

[ortolan]

EBWOP: Sorry, 6 to 30 hours