DHSDSM alpha: Game Over.

[Raging Wishbone]

[ortolan]

What are you talking about RW? How did we miss a safe-lynch?

When the next action phase starts (T-1 hour), we need to wait for the scum to make their kill, then lynch quickly.

[ortolan]

RW: can you point me to where you had the discussion about posting screenshots of quicktopics, then post yours. I want time to look at it because I see it as possible you guys premeditated it and planned for it all along.

[Raging Wishbone]

What are you talking about RW? How did we miss a safe-lynch?

When the next action phase starts (T-1 hour), we need to wait for the scum to make their kill, then lynch quickly.

For the 4th and final time,

scum have no reason to kill 'till we lynch

.

Your other questions address Walt, and I trust he'll answer them, though asking him to prove the whole thing isn't some sort of conspiracy of ours is like asking him to prove he doesn't have a sister.

[ortolan]

No, but, seriously, at what point did we miss a safe lynch, apart from about 3 days ago?

We can't have done anything else up until this point.

[ortolan]

no, I am just wanting to know where specifically the screenshotting was discussed as I didn't notice it on a cursory re-read

[J-Scope]

Tthis post makes me wanna vote J-Scope right now. I really dislike how he tries to throw some dirt on nybasdjgsalxzgkasj so I'll be more likely to vote nyba over him, and several lines later claims to find him pro time anyways. This behavior is both indicative of his interest being only in self survival, and typical of Jahudo's play as scum (at least judging by the relatively recent Boost mafia). I'll wait for more discussion with Walt and everyone to post daytalk, though.

Can you or your partner answer my questions from that post? I'm not throwing dirt on nyballs; they've looked town to me as I've said previously. I'm also not saying Pesco-Light was scummy, because their vote was never played out and they are not responsible for flaking at that key moment.

I'm merely saying that I don't think Pesco-Light was involved with, or ever knew about, the main reasons why Yosariwen was lynched. Sure, they would have had to distance which doesn't seem exceedingly likely in a timed game, but we don't know their true intentions.

The main point I made with that post was this: Pesco Light did not call Yos scum or scummy. Their vote had alot of weight in the long run but not initially because they never drew a conclusion that Yos could be scum.

Self-survival is hard to judge. I think you are doing it too. It is clear to me that one of us is more likely the lynch, but this time choosing wrong costs us the game. So yes, I am thinking of self-survival.

[ortolan]

Self-survival is hard to judge. I think you are doing it too. It is clear to me that one of us is more likely the lynch, but this time choosing wrong costs us the game. So yes, I am thinking of self-survival.

I don't like how this reads. You are acknowledging that one of you or RW is the more likely lynch, but saying you can understand his behaviour from a townie perspective. However your thought process as town should be "I am not scum, I am not voting for nyb or Ortohoops therefore RW is scum".

[ortolan]

I will also point out before this next action phase begins (20 minutes away) that when the scum-kill is made, you/we need to lynch

before

the next action phase starts.

As soon as the next action phase starts, assuming there are 3 people alive, the scum can put in a kill which, while it would normally take 6-18 hours to resolve; if they are lynched, it resolves before they are lynched resulting in them endgaming. So, when the scum kill is made, you/we need to lynch

before

Action Phase 6 starts.

[nyballosulgniirkps]

Or we could no lynch.

Going to see what it says in the rules.

I'm ok to post daytalk, but all you can say about Jscope not being able to do so is a nulltell. And people have to do it quick. Also, Nuwen was never caught with the daytalk, it was only afterward that the forgery was brought to attention. Did you not remember that RW?

[nyballosulgniirkps]

Yeah it's possible.

Pending my partner's approval, I think we should no lynching because right now I'm feeling indecisive.

Thought, no lynch only at the end of the day so we can have a bit of breathing toom.

[ortolan]

nyb, I think you need a briefing in how the rules work: the days are entirely independent of action phases

Scum get a new kill every action phase (time dependent), a new day is heralded by us lynching someone, and comes with an obligatory twilight period of 6-18 hours after the lynch occurs during which neither night actions can be submitted nor lynches made. It's presumably to avoid the very strategy we proposed- to simply speedlynch down a list yielding high odds of a town win.

Frankly, I'm not sure what to make of your misunderstanding of the fact. I would hope displaying such an apparent ignorance of the game mechanics (which wouldn't be genuinely possible if you were scum) is a town-tell.

I still do want to see day-talk screenshots from all

[J-Scope]

Self-survival is hard to judge. I think you are doing it too. It is clear to me that one of us is more likely the lynch, but this time choosing wrong costs us the game. So yes, I am thinking of self-survival.

I don't like how this reads. You are acknowledging that one of you or RW is the more likely lynch, but saying you can understand his behaviour from a townie perspective. However your thought process as town should be "I am not scum, I am not voting for nyb or Ortohoops therefore RW is scum".

Self-survival is what scum are doing too. To me RW is most likely the last scum. To everyone else, my perception is that one of us must be scum and the other town with scum tendencies (ie: not hard voting Yos). To everyone of us this decision ends the game so both scum and town have reason towards self-survival.

I think RW was getting at that I was self-survival because that's something that scum would do. I agree, but it has to be something town does here.

A closer look at RW:
---------

Thus far I see Frod Dodging being useless, arguing against Orthoops' plan (meaning supporting slowing down the game, meanig bad) and then after being called out on it immediately upping the aggressive with a vote on Yosariwen, who thus far feels strongly town. That's definitely good enough for a vote: frog dodging.

I'm not at all suspicious of Yosariwen, the crumbing, while a bad move, feels like unnatural play for scum (especially smart scum), and while I've never played with Nuwen, Yos feels like his town self thus far.

These were taken very early on in the wagon, around 2 votes where the attention was building but not the dominant issue. They chose not to push the issue of the crumb and from the start they decided to play it off as nothing while still giving them potential room to change their mind through the other head:

Alright so Nuwen made a huge MISTAKE? As far as my meta and previous experiences playing with her, she seems to think she is incapable of mistakes? I'm not sure I am buying this?

These questions look like they are directed at the self, as if the hydra is debating how they will eventually rule this decision but for now they are giving Nuwen the benefit of the doubt.

…and probably frogdoger may be townies. In fact without my partner around I would unvote frogdodge if he was in danger of being lynched... Yoso I am just not so sure about, I also dont like that she is posting elsewhere as someone else pointed out but not here?

There is a hint of suspicion of Yos-Nuwen in this post but it is very weak and probably couldn't have led to much. The bigger importance is how they use both heads to think independent, differing thoughts. This allows them to stay on the fence until one path becomes more viable and ultimately the head that chose that path could convince the other without us seeing much of the behind the scenes talk.

This can be alleviated if they provide private discussions, but I am somewhat hesitant to what they will show seeing as they believe they know how to determine fake conversations from real ones, and how they might position that authority.

Regarding YoSo, I would not vote to lynch them, (other than their possible lie and trying to find an excuse for sexEd, I still think they sound like townies trying to stay in the game)

What possible lie? You seem to acknowledge that the possible lie is a reason you would lynch them, so did you think the lie was real?

----------------

I think it is critical to find out who tried to get Yoso mod killed, if someone did..... however in the end if Yoso does get lynched and flips scum THEN it is a mute conversation. At this point in the game, I am not gonna wwitch my vote, but I wont be around tomorrow or the weekend either I think... so I will leave it to my partner to make a final choice.

I am really thinking yoso is a bad lynch... Whoever wants to hammer, please read the last four pages (tonights posts) carefully... and give it just a tad of time…

I am NOT stalling, a few hours wont hurt... I just really think there was something important in the last four pages and it would be prudent for everyone to consider before hammering yo/nuwen!

I thought these posts looked appropriate at the time because they were focusing on something (the modkill attempt) that needed to be addressed. But nothing came of it and RW went on to vote Yos-Nuwen over the AIM chat which felt like a side issue, or an auxiliary issue to the main case on Yos-Nuwen.

-----------

They do an interesting thing in this wagon, which is take both sides by using both heads. They allow themselves to call Yos town in the early going and find an /in to join the wagon late by deferring to the other head.

They admit that the modkill attempt won't be important if Yos dies and flips scum. I don't know what ever became of that modkiller attempter but the more I look at it, it looks like a diversion to setup a wild goose chase. It could have been started by Yos himself because it allowed the wagon to stall for a few moments. If it was, the remaining scum would have known to use it as a tipping point to either bus or push the wild goose chase. There isn't solid evidence to support this but I have a gut feeling from Yos's posts that he was ready for that cloud of confusion.

The reason they joined the wagon, frankly, looks like a small issue to the reasons many of us suspected Yos-Nuwen. A couple minutes in between AIM posts, using "they" to refer to the town; it is hard to say how people use their time on AIM or their English. The first can be explained away by other AIM chat conversations; the second could refer to the "town that isn't us and doesn't know us". Yes, these things are mute because Yos-Nuwen flipped scum but the last remaining scum would have known this and, by bussing, would turn this small tell into a genuine find after the flip.

I am betting that RW gauged the wagon early on as a passing phase, so he stayed off it. The wagon became great and this AIM tell was invented to give himself a reason to join. It helped that both heads had been opposed on some other opinions, so this hop would look like an extension of that. One even said they would differ to the other on the decision. We presume this is where the one that genuinely opposed the wagon from the start now differs to the other who was more cautious and has more justification to join as a curious, scumhunting "townie".

I am betting that RW is scum. If this comes down to me vs. RW I'll vote and let the others decide.

[ortolan]

I would probably vote for J-Scope at this stage, just throwing it out there

that is very, very pending RW posting their quicktopic and it being heavily scrutinised, as well as nyby

[J-Scope]

What about Hoops? Has she been in recently?

[Raging Wishbone]

No, but, seriously, at what point did we miss a safe lynch, apart from about 3 days ago?

We can't have done anything else up until this point.

I'm not saying there's any point specifically where we missed a lynch, just that it's a shame that if we would've done things like 12 hours faster we would've had another free one.

no, I am just wanting to know where specifically the screenshotting was discussed as I didn't notice it on a cursory re-read

I don't remember either, so I'll let Walt answer you since he's the one who discussed that.

Can you or your partner answer my questions from that post? I'm not throwing dirt on nyballs; they've looked town to me as I've said previously. I'm also not saying Pesco-Light was scummy, because their vote was never played out and they are not responsible for flaking at that key moment.

It's genuine simply because it feels real to me rather than planned in advance. It's a gut thing and I see no point arguing this further.

I'm merely saying that I don't think Pesco-Light was involved with, or ever knew about, the main reasons why Yosariwen was lynched. Sure, they would have had to distance which doesn't seem exceedingly likely in a timed game, but we don't know their true intentions.

The main point I made with that post was this: Pesco Light did not call Yos scum or scummy. Their vote had alot of weight in the long run but not initially because they never drew a conclusion that Yos could be scum.

And my point is that you as town shouldn't be trying to discredit nyba if you actually do think they're town, and the fact you your first point is bascially meant to make me lean more towards lynching nyba than you while the second one is that you think nyba's town and I'm scum makes it look like all you're looking for is for someone else to get lynched.

Self-survival is hard to judge. I think you are doing it too. It is clear to me that one of us is more likely the lynch, but this time choosing wrong costs us the game. So yes, I am thinking of self-survival.

The fact I was considering nyba and your post essentially encourages me to consider him further alone proves this is a completely false dichotomy.

I don't like how this reads. You are acknowledging that one of you or RW is the more likely lynch, but saying you can understand his behaviour from a townie perspective. However your thought process as town should be "I am not scum, I am not voting for nyb or Ortohoops therefore RW is scum".

qft.


I tend to see nyba's suggestion to no lynch as a null - slight town tell. And ort's right, we need to post whatever daytalk we can asap.

Just saw J-scope posted a big case on us, will address it in a seperate post.

Just

[Raging Wishbone]

As always, I'll answer the parts regarding me and let Walt handle his. So if I ignore a question, it's probably because I'm the half of the hydra that shouldn't be answering it.

Self-survival is what scum are doing too. To me RW is most likely the last scum. To everyone else, my perception is that one of us must be scum and the other town with scum tendencies (ie: not hard voting Yos). To everyone of us this decision ends the game so both scum and town have reason towards self-survival.

I think RW was getting at that I was self-survival because that's something that scum would do. I agree, but it has to be something town does here.

Highly manipulative. Again you draw that false dichotomy - why you completely rule out nyba (and to a lesser extent orhoops) is beyond me unless you know they're town and think you'll have the easiest time getting us lynched. Then there's the "scum tendencies" thing, which basically draws the equation that scummy = a person not voting Yos, but is absurd since by using the term "

hard

voting" he groups him and us together, even though Walt and I voted Yos, while he

didn't

. Votes can be seen as genuine to different extents, but there's no such thing as "hard voting". You either vote or you don't.

To everyone of us this decision ends the game so both scum and town have reason towards self-survival.

This isn't a 3 player - 1 confirmed townie situation where both sides know their lynch means their side loses. If you're town, you should've been trying to decide who's the last scum - to actually scumhunt - rather than just pick us out as the most likely to be lynched and draw a false dichotomy that either you or us must therefore be the scum and the lynch. This looks even worse when you consider how you tried to make me suspect nyba over you, without ever yourself expressing a belief that he's scum. This isn't scumhunting, this is pure self survival when town still has scumhunting to do, and is therefore a strong scumtell imo.

These were taken very early on in the wagon, around 2 votes where the attention was building but not the dominant issue. They chose not to push the issue of the crumb and from the start they decided to play it off as nothing while still giving them potential room to change their mind through the other head:

Since these quotes are the only ones that are mine, I just wanna mention that I still think that crumbing thing Nuwen did was bad play for both sides and therefore a null tell, but we're of course lucky to have lynched scum based on it (or I could be just flat out wrong).

These questions look like they are directed at the self, as if the hydra is debating how they will eventually rule this decision but for now they are giving Nuwen the benefit of the doubt.

Yes, and I would think this kind of genuine indecision and conflicting opinions between two players sharing the same role is a towntell. Of course you try to portray it as a conspiracy of ours to make us look better by intentionally disagreeing and using different trails of thought, but again asking me to prove this isn't the case is like asking me to prove I don't have a sister. I think that, generally speaking, if something looks like a genuine towntell, it should be seen as a genuine towntell, even if it's not defenitive and can also be explained as a planned ahead intiricate scum ploy.

There is a hint of suspicion of Yos-Nuwen in this post but it is very weak and probably couldn't have led to much. The bigger importance is how they use both heads to think independent, differing thoughts. This allows them to stay on the fence until one path becomes more viable and ultimately the head that chose that path could convince the other without us seeing much of the behind the scenes talk.

This can be alleviated if they provide private discussions, but I am somewhat hesitant to what they will show seeing as they believe they know how to determine fake conversations from real ones, and how they might position that authority.

Here you continue the intricate ploy line. Why is this a better explanation than simple disagreement between two townies sharing the same role? It isn't, you're just writing this post in an attempt to make us look scummy, either as a result of tunnlevision or of you being scum (and since the tunnlevision looks completely intentional, I'd go for the second). I also like how you prepare yourself ahead to cast doubt on our DT.

The reason they joined the wagon, frankly, looks like a small issue to the reasons many of us suspected Yos-Nuwen. A couple minutes in between AIM posts, using "they" to refer to the town; it is hard to say how people use their time on AIM or their English. The first can be explained away by other AIM chat conversations; the second could refer to the "town that isn't us and doesn't know us". Yes, these things are mute because Yos-Nuwen flipped scum but the last remaining scum would have known this and, by bussing, would turn this small tell into a genuine find after the flip.

I am betting that RW gauged the wagon early on as a passing phase, so he stayed off it. The wagon became great and this AIM tell was invented to give himself a reason to join. It helped that both heads had been opposed on some other opinions, so this hop would look like an extension of that. One even said they would differ to the other on the decision. We presume this is where the one that genuinely opposed the wagon from the start now differs to the other who was more cautious and has more justification to join as a curious, scumhunting "townie".

Untrue. I don't remember exactly why Walt joined the wagon, so I'll let him explain it again himself when he returns, but the AIM tell was originally mentioned in my catch-up post, that was typed before Yos' lynchbut posted after he was already proven scum. Even though it's entirely possible that had I managed to catch up before Yos' lynch I'd vote him based on the AIM tell and some other stuff I commented on then, I was too late and that's not what happened.

If you count the Zmd lynch, that's twice I would've probably made the "right" decision and correceted a "wrong" stance I had before if I hadn't been too late, which is a shame but then again this game is moving at a pretty insane pace, and so's my life atm. Of course you can choose not to believe me and claim I only made those up after Yos and Zmd died to make me look better, and again there's no way for me to prove that isn't the case other than tell you it isn't.

Anyways, this proves your whole above theory false, though I'm sure with some effort you'll be able to make up a new one which explains how we're even more likely to be conspirators in light of the actual facts. I doubt it'll be very convincing, though.

I am betting that RW is scum. If this comes down to me vs. RW I'll vote and let the others decide.

You're the one trying to make it come down to it, 'cause you think (or thought) you're most likely to win this dual.

Answer me this, for a start - why does the difference of opinion between me and Walt make us more likely to be scum? What's wrong with the simple explanation that we really did disagree on some stuff?



I'm almost ready to vote J-Scope, but I'll wait some more for everyone's DT.

[Raging Wishbone]

RW: can you point me to where you had the discussion about posting screenshots of quicktopics, then post yours. I want time to look at it because I see it as possible you guys premeditated it and planned for it all along.

Here is the exchange, between RR and Sens Fan...

What QT?

Me and Walt set up a QT to communicate when we're not both online. You should do the same if you're town and haven't yet.

3) Mind posting a screenshot of an earlier segment of the QT? Preferably one where you're discussing who you think is Scum. Also nice to be included would be the title of the QT. (Obviously, crop/blur out the url.)

3) Mind posting a screenshot of an earlier segment of the QT? Preferably one where you're discussing who you think is Scum. Also nice to be included would be the title of the QT. (Obviously, crop/blur out the url.)

I'm not sure Adel will be ok with this, nor do I think my fucekd up computer is capable of taking screenshots. Otherwise, fine.

Mod

, is this allowed?

see rules 17 and 18

see rules 17 and 18

Yeah, gathered as much. We talk about beta as well there, so that can't be done. I could paraphrase our talk on alpha, though.

see rules 17 and 18

Yeah, gathered as much. We talk about beta as well there, so that can't be done. I could paraphrase our talk on alpha, though.

Ah, hadn't even thought of that.

Don't bother paraphrasing, that ruins the purpose.

I have a few screencaps done and loaded on a server, however I am having a bit of trouble figuring out how to embed them so far. Anyone know how I can do this?

@Adel - Can I just link to the photoboucket account with the screencaps? It does not contain anything other then a few screencaps of me and RR's talk of the Alpha game.

There is nothing I can show because I haven't been playing with my partner (Kaleidoscope). I tried to exchange PM's and he had replied that he was sorry but couldn't keep up with the game.

Post 37 was the only post he made under "J-Scope". The rest was all me, Jahudo.

He had a few posts that he made on his own account but those were to say he wasn't reading, so I've just gone ahead and played solo.

I find it hard to believe you have nothing you can post and you did not communitcate with her at all when this game started. I see the K-scope left, but did you not talk to her after you got your roles? Did you not send her a pm or did she not send you a pm? Don't you think one off the first things everyone did in this game was speak to their partner?

@NyBalls - Good deal, I would love to see those posts if your partner agrees.

@RR - We were out of time yesterday and there was no sense in rushing a lynch and chancing being wrong so scum could swoop in and use this action period to make a kill and End this game. - ww

[Raging Wishbone]

Just to prevent any confusion, that post above was Walt and the two before it are mine (RR).

@Adel - Can I just link to the photoboucket account with the screencaps? It does not contain anything other then a few screencaps of me and RR's talk of the Alpha game.

I think as long as you don't put anything there mentioning beta, linking to basically wherever you want is completely allowed. I could post my flickr account, if anybody cared.

[Raging Wishbone]

I would probably vote for J-Scope at this stage, just throwing it out there

that is very, very pending RW posting their quicktopic and it being heavily scrutinised, as well as nyby

@J-Scope - Why do you think Hoops would think of voting for you or NYballs as scum? I told everyone I was gonna post screen caps that should make us obv town. If Hoops was scum why would he even consider letting us continue. Wouldn't the smartest thing for scum to do, elimante us before we had the chance? So imo Hoops is looking really town in this game

Yeah it's possible.

Pending my partner's approval, I think we should no lynching because right now I'm feeling indecisive.

Thought, no lynch only at the end of the day so we can have a bit of breathing toom.

I am indecisive too and his is might be a good plan, if scum don't make a kill by the end of the next action period. However, with the delay on actions, i don't think we can take that chance. With all our different time zones and stuff I think we need to come to a consensus by the end of Day Wedensday May 13th.

@RR - I left you the link in qt, if you know how to embed them from flickr, please let me know, I can switch to that. - ww

[J-Scope]

I never tried to make anyone suspect nyballs. I have no idea where you are getting this idea from what I said. I called Pesco a null read solely in the interaction with Yosariwen. The other Pesco posts do not amount to a strong read either since they are very early in the game. I can make out the FL style in several of them but I don't know much about her meta. In the moment I would read very slightly pro-town on them but the conversion rate to now doesn't give them a solid read in my opinion.

Raging Wishbone is attempting to pass this off as me playing survival but that was never the case. I was instead pointing out how RW was giving Pesco a town read that I couldn't follow to that logical conclusion.

And my point is that you as town shouldn't be trying to discredit nyba if you actually do think they're town, and the fact you your first point is bascially meant to make me lean more towards lynching nyba than you while the second one is that you think nyba's town and I'm scum makes it look like all you're looking for is for someone else to get lynched

I think you missed the point entirely. I was pointing out how YOU were misguided on what Pesco did or did not do. They hardly pressed Yos at all and not on the reasons others did, which I took as a NULL TELL. You on the other hand give them a townie read that your now basing on a feel? But really you pointed towards their interactions with Yos, which made me suspicious of you because you did not say why and I suspected you just made it up.

I am saying that you are crediting nyballs, perhaps to get them on your side. I was not discrediting nyballs because I did not suspect them or Pesco. I suspected how you elevated Pesco, therefore I suspected you!

Highly manipulative. Again you draw that false dichotomy - why you completely rule out nyba (and to a lesser extent orhoops) is beyond me unless you know they're town and think you'll have the easiest time getting us lynched.

I’ve only ever thought they were pro-town when I’ve said anything at all. I can explain why they are pro-town if you want, though I’m not trying to change your vote and I don’t think Ortohoops is considering voting them either. It’s more important now to focus on who I will vote for, not who I won’t.

Then there's the "scum tendencies" thing, which basically draws the equation that scummy = a person not voting Yos, but is absurd since by using the term "hard voting" he groups him and us together, even though Walt and I voted Yos, while he didn't. Votes can be seen as genuine to different extents, but there's no such thing as "hard voting". You either vote or you don't.

The “not hard voting” was an example of how you are perceived as possible town with scum tendencies. If I were analyzing myself I would probably use the example “investigating Yos without voting”.

I’m grouping us together only because to an outsider our actions could have been stronger on the Yos wagon.

Why is this a better explanation than simple disagreement between two townies sharing the same role?

To be clear, I was turning these questions into scum conclusions to see if they make sense. I am at the stage where I cannot possibly see anyone else as scum, because there is no one else. For the sake of undecided people I can compile the neutral aspects of the case again but I am already decided for myself and want to hear from the undecided.

[Raging Wishbone]

I think you missed the point entirely. I was pointing out how YOU were misguided on what Pesco did or did not do. They hardly pressed Yos at all and not on the reasons others did, which I took as a NULL TELL. You on the other hand give them a townie read that your now basing on a feel? But really you pointed towards their interactions with Yos, which made me suspicious of you because you did not say why and I suspected you just made it up.

I am saying that you are crediting nyballs, perhaps to get them on your side. I was not discrediting nyballs because I did not suspect them or Pesco. I suspected how you elevated Pesco, therefore I suspected you!

Yeah, nice try. Here's the original quote:

Exactly what about Pesco-Light's interaction with Yos is genuine? Why does "genuine" mean they are not likely scum with Yos?

Here's the distinction - the motivation behind breadcrumbing was a null tell (any power role has the motivation to crumb his or her results, regardless of alignment). As an independent body, nothing Incamn did made him/her more likely to be scum than town or town than scum.

Probability dictates that killing a random power role will hit scum more often than killing any other random player. This isn't a tell; it's a ratio observation independent of the crumbing itself.

Playing the setup isn't going to catch scum more effectively than solid scumhunting and I'm quite sure this is not unreasonable to expect from the experienced players in this game.

This was the only real interaction they had. It was the reason Pesco voted and it was their last post. I don't think it is a indication either way because they were not calling Yos scum, but they did place a vote so if they are partners they intended to distance early. We don't know what their true intention was because it never played out. Maybe they were hoping to withdraw the vote, but maybe not. At the time of the vote I think there was enough time and leeway to do either.

So I don't think Pesco-Light's actions make them much less likely to be scum. I think nyballs has looked pro-town, however, by getting to the root of who could be scum and why based on day 1's wagon.

I have to write up a case but I'm thinking I'd vote for RW over nyballs.

You don't use your analysis of nyba as a followup to questioning me or showing why you suspect me, you just contradict my point (thereby hopefully making him look worse to me) and go on to declare him pro town.

The “not hard voting” was an example of how you are perceived as possible town with scum tendencies. If I were analyzing myself I would probably use the example “investigating Yos without voting”.

I’m grouping us together only because to an outsider our actions could have been stronger on the Yos wagon.

And yet, there's a very clear cut difference between

voting

Yos and

not voting

Yos which you where trying to blur with your invention of "hard voting".

[Raging Wishbone]

viewtopic.php?t=9678

For everyone's benefit, above is a link to the aformentioned boost mafia, where Jahudo played somewhat similarly to here and got lynched d1 as GF.

[J-Scope]

You don't use your analysis of nyba as a followup to questioning me or showing why you suspect me, you just contradict my point (thereby hopefully making him look worse to me) and go on to declare him pro town.

I did ask you questions; those two at the top of the post. I was going to explain once you had explained your initial claim. I couldn’t show you why until you had the chance to give the complete answer. Now that you did I still am not satisfied; you had a feeling that Pesco was being genuine but I still don’t see how one would come to that conclusion over another conclusion since the Pesco appeared to respond to Yos neutrally, not as a town or scum or someone you’d really like to watch closer.

How would a scum-Pesco be unable to make that post?

And yet, there's a very clear cut difference between voting Yos and not voting Yos which you where trying to blur with your invention of "hard voting".

True enough. I don’t want to blur the merits of our actions but I do want to distinctly analyze them.

Say on a scale of 1 to 10, how much attention did we pay to the wagon? How often or much did we suspect them? How did we try to push towards a lynch or away from one? Then add the fact that you voting and I only FoS’ed. And what is more likely for scum to do?

I’ll come back to this later.

For everyone's benefit, above is a link to the aformentioned boost mafia, where Jahudo played somewhat similarly to here and got lynched d1 as GF.

That may provide an accurate representation of how I fight tooth and nail not to get lynched, but I do that as town too; even if the game is statistically won and people tell me to just go quietly (I don’t). Examples:

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10237
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10165

Is that what you were getting at by “played” or do you mean my offense?

[Raging Wishbone]

How would a scum-Pesco be unable to make that post?

He wouldn't, there's no such thing as a post scum are "unable" to make. It's a matter of me feeling his exchange with Yos was genuine (and also tactically not a move I'd expect scum to make, though that's no to say it couldn't have been bussing), which is a matter of gut and I don't see how you can hold that against me. Your post doesn't look at all like it was intended as an attack of me, and anyways the attack you now try to present it as to cover the scumtell I blamed you of really sucks.

Is that what you were getting at by “played” or do you mean my offense?

I mostly mean the "contributing a reasonable amount to the game while flying just under the radar" vibe I get from you in both games. I think it's a smart approach for scum to take.