DHSDSM beta: Game Over.

[whoami8]

Mod can we get a Yosariwen prod please.

Also wondering where Ojando is. Seemed like a rather eager replacement to take so long to post.

Zmd why do you list three people as confident scum but not vote for any of them? Also as J-Scope pointed out, what has Death of Hogfather done to specifically warrant scum inclusion?

Frog Dodging why did you ask for more activity from the rest of the town and then not post agin? Actually

mod can we get a Frog Dodging prod too

.

As I said before I'm getting scummy read off of PtA. I don't know tajo too well, but PokerFace-town is usually less tunneled and more proactive. He also tends to look at the bigger picture and not get hung up on a single point (OK that's very subtly different than less tunneled). I just feel that he's not actively scum hunting but is more trying to divert attention towards someone else.

I'm also up for some Trotsky pressure. Trotsky, could you please address my earlier question with your next post.

I'm not sure I'm buying Trotsky's defense that he thought A&B was mafia protecting a scumbuddy.

Why would mafia claim vig/SK outing themselves to a killing role?

To clarify that should read, you thought Zaph was mafia protecting A&B mafia so you requested A&B kill Zaph.

[Saunt Adelaus]

prodded: Yosariwen, Frog Dodging

current prod count:

1

:Frog Dodging, Ortohoops, PoketheAlpaca, Yosariwen, Zmd

3rd prod = instant replacement.

[Frog Dodging]

Hrmf.

I had sent my partner the results of a reread for him to turn into a post with the results of his own reread.

He hasn't got round to it yet, so I'll just post my thoughts.

I'm disturbed by Yosariwen's lurking. I don't think lurking in this game is as much of a scumtell as it would be in normal games, but for Yos in particular lurking is extremely bizarre. We both agree, at rate, that this deserves more attention.

Most of my thoughts are about the PTA wagon. If PTA is scum, then the fact that it competed with the A&B wagon for a while gives fertile ground for analysis. Of course, this all changes if PTA is town.

To make this a bit quicker, here is the exact replica of the post I sent to my partner:

1) Scum do not know who the SK is. We should treat the a&b wagon like a townie wagon for the purposes of identifying opportunistic scum.

2) The a&b wagon competed for a decent time against the PTA wagon. On page 3, the PTA wagon briefly reaches 5 votes, before it is the a&B wagon which takes off instead. If PTA is scum, this looks bad for incamnito, trotsky and ortohoops. However, for trotsky the position is more difficult to analyse, as one wanted to vote for a&b and the other wanted to vote for PTA. Not sure what this means for whether or not they are scum

3)ortohoops is posting a lot of fluff. There is very little actual scumhunting in ortohoops' posts - it is mostly theory discussion. That seems like an excellent scum strategy in a game like this.

4) Hogfather seemed anxious to hammer a&b without ever expressing prior suspicion of him. Odd progression there.

5) ZMD seems disconnected from reality. Not really paying any attention to any of the growing wagons - may be trying to slip under the radar with a vote on ortohoops.

6) I can't read DGB very well at all, but I am getting scummy vibes from their posts.

Normally I would say all these things more assertively, but I haven't parsed it into my normal mafiaspeak. These are still raw thoughts. A second PM contained the following:

PTA makes an effort not to die when he looks like he's going down. Hrmf, typical. Annoying, but typical. Why can't people sense danger building at a time when there's actually a chance of stopping it? Look for stalling on claiming, since that's the last hurdle before lynching him.

Jscope's PTA vote looks blaaaaaah. Check him out.

@Frogdodge, you mention trotsky and ZMD briefly in posts 137 & 138. You say they can be reasonably scum in that grouping but you don't go into detail exclusivly on Trotsky and ZMD. Why do you believe they could be scum?

I made my one of those posts before I reread, and my thoughts there were mostly gut vibes. Reread has given me more substantial reasons to be iffy about trotsky and zmd.

Zmd is scummier than trotsky.

[Ojando]

Hello!
We have both mostly caught up now. (SWSWC, the answer to your wondering is implied in the previous sentence and in our sig.)

A few thoughts from the catch up.

PtA post 28

I agree with everyhting PF has said.
Ill reread later.

Not only pointless, both sentences are off, reread 20 game posts? There is almost nothing to agree on too.
Ortohoops post 39

It's almost kind of ironic that my non-game related post has sparked more game related discussion than almost all the random votes.

I dislike implying credit for discussion by doing something questionable.
Also not quite seeing how the RVS questions from ortohoops to incamn and PtA to Yosariwen actually were meant to advance the game - they seem like questions for the sake of appearing to ask questions (also Yos never answered and PtA didn't seem to care)

PtA (populartajo)48"I'll post soon I promise" after getting that flak for fluff? Probably not even reading the thread but worried about looking like a lurker?
PtA 50 PBPA Confused ("DGBHoopla", this from someone who calls their playstyle meta-based??) and consisting of simple facts and feelings. No conclusions reached. Pseudo-participation.

We dislike Zaphod 141 A&B section. A&B was finito already. Don't see any other reason for this to be there than just to self-congratulate, playing up that their hydra was eagerly calling for the finishing votes of the lynch.

Ortohoops 154 - ortolan is defending Hoopla's fluff with fluff.

Poptajo is pity-fishing in 159. DGB's earlier display of bummedness could be in the same manipulative category although we're a little blind on the meta surrounding that.

Zmd is generally empty on content. Post 168, the only that has multiple comments, seems to be reads from gut that will not give us much. Please elaborate. The reason voiced for Trotsky's scummyness (relatively many posts first 2 pages), for example, would apply also to other players (like Pta, who Zmd declares town).

Frod Dodging, not sure how well the 4)Hogfather part in your latest post matches with reality, did you miss post 75?


Essentially we agree that the PoketheAlpaca seems the best lynch at the moment. Fluff crimes. Vagueness. After getting under heavier fire throwing suspicion without substantive points to back up the calling of the quick lynches. Apparently they sorted their thoughts on aim but one head doesn't seem to know what the other is doing. Pokerface uses ortohoops' comment "scum would avoid blatantly scummy and only slightly beneficial behaviour" as questionable in his attack against ortohoops. Next poptajo defends himself against ortohoops using the very same argument. Basically displaying pseudo in aspect after aspect.

vote: PoketheAlpaca

[Yosariwen]

Hello.

I'm sorry I haven't been posting. I (Yosarian) do not do well with this kind of mecahnic; the "posting without making progess hurts the town" thing really messes with my head, makes me want to make every single one of my posts *EPIC* and game-changing, and when I can't do that or don't feel up to making a super-mega-post, I tend to put it off. Same thing happened to me in the Short and Sweet mafia game, and posting hurt the town less in that game then it does here. Of course, lurking hurts the town as well, and probably hurts the town more; it's just really hard for me to post when I can't make a short pithy comment without wondering if it's worth doing in a cost/benifit analyis. (My intenet connection was down for about 24 hours on Wednesday, but that's not the main reason.)

Plus, for some reason, I'm really having trouble finding stuff to talk about in this game. Still, I will do my utmost to post more, even if it means some posts with less content. I've never been replaced in any game I've ever played on mafiascum, for ANY reason, and I will NOT let this be the first one if I can do anything about it.

I was actually about to hammer A&B around the end of page 4; I thought he was scum for a lot of reasons, especally shaft.ed's "if they weren't scum, scum would have killed someone not on the wagon to lynch them" argument. (Which, actually, apparently wasn't true, which is interesing.) But then I decided to wait and give them one more chance to respond first; and I didn't want to spend a post just to SAY "I'm thinking about hammering you" like I would in a normal game.
Anyway, sex with shaft.ed's wife really seems pro-town to me here; I really get a good vibe from them.

On a side note, if we could get together a second lynch today (that is, before end of page 12), and basically try to get off about 2 lynches a day, I think it would work to our advanage; 2 lynches/day would give us a favorable town kill/scum kill ratio without totally shutting down town night actions, if we can manage it while not being stupid . We also ideally want to make sure that person has a chance to claim before being hammered, though, so I think we want to a bandwagon going quickly here. (Also, for this reason, I think the pro-town thing to do here is for us to vote for someone during this post, rather then posting and not using our vote, and I will, although as of this point I honestly haven't decided who yet.)

From the mod's twilight post I took it that Frog wasn't going to die. It's possible there was a protection or a block.

Could be; in fact, almost certanly is true at this point, considering the time that's passed. Or else the SK might not have been telling the truth about having submitted the kill yet.

I wish ZMD didn't make the "prodded will post soon" post number 148. That's still anti-town, and probably scummy as well since scum would like to get us to drift past 12 pages without a lynch.

I'm not really getting Ortohoop's case against poke the alpaca in post 154; could you explain that again in your next post, please?

I'm having trouble remembering who is who, which makes meta especally hard, and it gets even worse when people post in their origional accounts and I can't remember who goes with what hydra. If you do a game like this again, Adel, it might help if you put that info in the first post. Let me post the list here, from the queau thread,for reference:

*1. Zaphod Beeblebrox (DGB+Plum)
2. Apples and Banana (SensFan+xofelf)
*3. Zmd (ZazieR+Kmd4390)
*4. Trotsky (Korts+roflcopter)
*5.

Death the Hogfather (Kairyuu+Seraphim)

Ojando (Ojanen+ Sando0
*6. Incamnito (Incognito+camn)
*7. Yosariwen (Yosarian2+Nuwen)
*8. Ortohoops (ortolan+Hoopla)
*9. sex w/ shafteds wife club (elvis_knits+shaft.ed)
*10. PoketheAlpaca (PokerFace+populartajo)
*11.

Pesco-Light (forbiddanlight+Pesco)

nyballosulgniirkps (Kison+springlullaby)
*12. Raging Wishbone (Raging Rabbit+WaltWishbone)
*13. J-Scope (Jahudo+KaleiÃ

[Saunt Adelaus]

Votecount as of post 179:

PoketheAlpaca:

4

:Ortohoops, J-Scope, sex w/ shafteds wife club, Ojando
Raging Wishbone:

1

:Yosariwen,

not voting:

7

:Frog Dodging, Incamnito, nyballosulgniirkps, Ojando, PoketheAlpaca, Raging Wishbone, Trotsky, Zaphod Beeblebrox, Zmd

while 12 players are alive, 7 votes will lynch

[Ortohoops]

I'm actually not liking either of the last two posts very much.

Ortohoops post 39

It's almost kind of ironic that my non-game related post has sparked more game related discussion than almost all the random votes.

I dislike implying credit for discussion by doing something questionable.

You haven't actually explained why her action was "questionable", you just seem to be bandwagoning with a whole bunch of other people who have attacked her "suggestions for approaching the game" style posting.

I will address this point here though, it's been brought up by many people and I've no doubt it's a genuine attitude that you can't rule out Hoops simply having tried to get through the game by making "suggestions to approaching the game" type posts while neglecting any actual scumhunting. I would bring up the counterpoint that she did exactly the same thing in Alpha, where you now know we were town, and where I think it had pro-town consequences. Additionally, I have come at things from a totally different tangent. Thus I think one of the main reasons we've been criticised for it is simply due the limited-posting-based nature of the game.

Also not quite seeing how the RVS questions from ortohoops to incamn and PtA to Yosariwen actually were meant to advance the game - they seem like questions for the sake of appearing to ask questions (also Yos never answered and PtA didn't seem to care)

What is the point here? What have you concluded from the fact they didn't bother to answer our questions?

Ortohoops 154 - ortolan is defending Hoopla's fluff with fluff.

You're bringing a startling lack of substance to the allegations against us. Once you label an original post as "fluff", that obligates us to respond do it, yet all you can say about the response is "oh that's fluff" again. You fail to go into any detail why. I've offered an explanation for why she might have posted what she did, I've agreed it might have been a bit sloppy, and additionally made the point that in the scheme of useless posting in this game we are probably in the bottom half of players anyhow. You haven't told me why my defence was fluff, and seem to want to draw us into a vicious circle whereby any defence of our previously labeled "fluff posting" is again labeled as "fluff posting"

The vote on PTA is appreciated, but your meritless attacks on us give me pause.

Yoswen's post is far scummier though.

I was actually about to hammer A&B around the end of page 4; I thought he was scum for a lot of reasons, especally shaft.ed's "if they weren't scum, scum would have killed someone not on the wagon to lynch them" argument. (Which, actually, apparently wasn't true, which is interesing.) But then I decided to wait and give them one more chance to respond first; and I didn't want to spend a post just to SAY "I'm thinking about hammering you" like I would in a normal game.

I don't understand what the point of telling us this was, unless you're trying to get after-the-fact townpoints by saying you were willing to let a claimed SK/vig live.

The following is very, very, very scummy:

On a side note, if we could get together a second lynch today (that is, before end of page 12), and basically try to get off about 2 lynches a day, I think it would work to our advanage; 2 lynches/day would give us a favorable town kill/scum kill ratio without totally shutting down town night actions, if we can manage it while not being stupid . We also ideally want to make sure that person has a chance to claim before being hammered, though, so I think we want to a bandwagon going quickly here. (Also, for this reason, I think the pro-town thing to do here is for us to vote for someone during this post, rather then posting and not using our vote, and I will, although as of this point I honestly haven't decided who yet.)

Basically, you want to lynch twice within the next four pages, and "want to get a bandwagon going quickly here." In your leaning scum list, you have both Raging Wishbone, and PokeTheAlpaca. PokeTheAlpaca's wagon had four votes on it, Raging Wishbone's had zero. I cannot understand how you can simultaneously want as many lynches as quickly as possible, and blatantly be trying to start a new wagon. This very, very much increases the probability of you being scum with PTA.

You also then blatantly equivocate between your contrary desires:

However, the ease of the wagon on PoketheAlpaca seems off to me; it seems too easy, no one seems to disagree with it at all. I can't quite explain it; I see scumtells and they look scummy on their own, but the wagon feels like it might be scum supported to me, or at least not scum opposed, if that makes sense; no one is arguing against this wagon, or trying to start a competing wagon, and that feels like a bad sign to me. Nuwen says she would like to see more people comment on this wagon.

So...now you want as many comments as possible on the wagon, prolonging the time it will take to lynch which you said just before you wanted to shorten? Your defence also makes no sense: "he's acting scummy but...I don't think he's scum".

Another point:

I'm not really getting Ortohoop's case against poke the alpaca in post 154; could you explain that again in your next post, please?

I find it hard to believe you could be so unconvinced by our case on PTA in 154 (you never actually say what you have wrong with it), yet independently also come to the conclusion that they are scummy (while not voting them).

*12. Raging Wishbone (Raging Rabbit+WaltWishbone): This one is mostly Nuwen's read; she dislikes the way that they put A&B at lynch -1 right after it was pointed out that putting someone at lynch -1 is dangerous, and also the way the other head then unvoted in order to try and use the kill. I agree; the post where Raging Wishbone unvotes and tries to get us to keep A&B alive so we can "direct their kill" is really anti-town to me, especally since town can lynch multiple times a day anyway. Nuwen also thinks their post 131 looks kind of "fluffy", in a scummy kind of way. (Funny side note: once slipped and called Pesco-Light "Pesco-Town". I have no idea if that means anything, but seems worth mentioning while I'm thinking abut it.)

Really don't like the misdirection in deferring the read to "mostly being Nuwen's" here. You also totally fail to explain what motivation a mafia player could have for wanting an extra town-directed kill in play. Your case is very, very weak; another reason you distracting from the PTA wagon is scummy.

*10. PoketheAlpaca (PokerFace+populartajo) : Along with the other things that have been pointed out, possible link to Raging Wishbone, in this post where he defends Raging wishbone.

We disagree with your opinion here. Both town and scum could want to keep a claimed Vig alive. That way the "vig" would kill people for them
* Scum would want "Vig" to wipe out town. Direct the "vig" to kill other townies
* Town would want "Vig" to kill scum
It is a null tell. If RW is town they clearly did not realize Town has infinite lynches and wouldn't need to direct the vig.

You've actually entirely misinterpreting this, because PTA was

not

defending RW

at all

, but actually trying to argue against our point that RW wanting to keep the SK/vig alive was a town-tell. This also shows how little sense your stance on RW/PTA makes, because you speculate about a connection between both RW and PTA, while deliberately neglecting one wagon in favour of starting another.

I think Yoswen is scum with PTA and is trying both to derail his wagon and tie RW to him if he gets lynched regardless and flips scum.

[PoketheAlpaca]

Sorry for the wall of text but then I'm sure you didn't want me to post more than once. Saunt Adelaus probably deserves a mod kill warning for posts 169 through 171

My reaction to RagingWishbone's unvote was the same as Ortohoops' - the reason is that town would be more likely to consider the possible benefits of that claim being legit, and utilizing the kill of the vigilante without realizing that they already possess the potential to make up for it themselves with their limitless lynches. While it's only in the benefit of the SK to kill town, both serial killers and vigilantes *want* to kill scum. The more likely to give off the knee-jerk reaction of unvoting would be town.

Respectfully disagree. Cross-kills (or additional, town-directed kills) = another way for scum to die. By eliminating another killing group scum substantially lower their probability of dying. This is also with the hindsight he actually was an SK- he still could have been a vig at that time. Are you actually suggesting scum are happy to leave potential vigs alive? It's not a sure town-tell but it's a strong one in this case.

In this game:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8926
I PF was scum. And everybody (Town and Scum) tried to use DGB (Who was a very powerful Vig) to kill other players since you were allowed 2 day kills a day and or only 1 lynch. Not even for a second did my scum group think of killing DGB. We thought of ways to use here to kill others for us the entire time. We even planned to lynch her later because her kills of town made her look like scum because she killed sometimes without anybody asking her too. She could have gone after us at any moment, thought we were scum and shot us to pieces. But she didn't. We figured she wouldn't and we were right. In my experience Town and scum have equal reasons to keep any and all other killing roles alive. As long as a player is a use to you there is no reason to kill them. Our scum group in that game even had the power to day kill without DGB to some extent. We didn't need her, she could have killed us, but we kept her alive because she was useful. If someone is useful to you and your side, then there is no reason to get rid of them no matter what side you are on. And I can see ways an extra kill could benefit either side.

But, I am aware that some of what "we" have posted in this game may be construed as fluff, which was why I was willing to forgive it from the other hydras, in the early game, up to a point. However PTA's constant diatribes about "fluff posting" become beyond hypocritical when they make not one but two

completely

useless posts on page 2, followed by a scummy PBPA. Of course then comes the unprompted unvote, and now a contrived OMGUS.

The above should also serve as a comprehensive reply to J-Scope as far as I'm aware.

...
Your case on Zaphod, quite frankly, sucks.

It seems to be based on the idea that not voting scum = scum.

Huh?^ Where you getting that part from?

However we know this is not the case when A&B is a flipped SK. It also contains an extremely vague and unsubstantiated assertion about their overall playing style (bolded), and another (hypocritical) reference to "time/post" wasting.

Vote: PokeTheAlpaca

OMGUS is voting you just because you are voting me. We both gave reasons as to why we are voting each other. If no reason was given then it would be OMGUS. I gave a reason. The way you word it suggests that any time too players vote each other it is OMGUS. To prove that I was OMGUS you must prove my reasons were BS and I was voting you out of spite. Instead you said I was right about the way that first post could be fluff. So how was I BSing? I wasn't

Check the time stamp and words of these posts from our game
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 63#1642063
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 08#1645208
and compare them to these posts from the alpha game
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 65#1642065
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 06#1645206
Tajo was clearly under the wrong impression that these games were the same. He has to treat and learn from both of them and he should now have learned from these mistakes with recent postings not being of the same manner.

And what I explained was the feel I get from the postings. Call it gut if you want but DGB is not someone who strays away from a challenge or easily follows a group. Her running scared is like bigfoot. You are shocked to see it. And that was the impression I was getting. Plums post on A&B didn't seem to add anything in my point of view. I've played in games where people have used simular posts to camaflauge or try to look like everybody else. It would have been better if she analyze the wagon from a finished perspective not a growing one. That way she could find scum NOW. See if someone had bad reasoning while voting A&B and would be more likly scum. That would have been providing something new and helpful to the game not more of the same A&B is scummy. Thinking A&B was scummy was only useful when A&B was alive.

These comments here should also answer what J-scope asked here:

Saying you find A&B scummy now does absolutly nothing. Its just a pathetic attempt to look like everybody else.

I agree that it does nothing to help them or the relevant discussion but I don't think it's a scumtell. The whole post looks like a big stream of consciousness to catch up to the present, like the catchup post of someone who replaced in.

They have agreedwith others/wagon jumped at times convienant to when others have been pressuring them.

Why don’t you think DGB would do this as town? I think she’s normally a free voter. The first six posts were a little extreme; some had a joking attitude or the intention of prodding a lurker, but none looked like they were trying to hide the fact that they were jumping on a person. I think it’s probably just a personality of the players, not the alignment.

_________________

This was part of what I was getting at in my suspicions of PoketheAlpaca. Asked for content, gives not really. I also dislike their attack on Ortohoops, to some degree, anyway. I explained why their vote on A&B was

not

hypocritical.

I don't get this either. Part of the case being expressed on A&B is their posting wasn't really adding much to the game. Saying Scum wouldn't do it because they'd get attacked for being scummy is stupid. Scum are more likly to be scummy. If scum were never scummy, how would we catch them? You sound like you want to attack those that conserve posts and you don't certainly seem to be doing or voting for that. Like you're being a hypocrite.

And I did not bye your explanation. They should be explaining why, not you. Its their vote not yours.

No, Ortohoops seems to want to attack those who immediately jump on those not being extremely conservative with posts.

If that was the case they would have voted themselves for voting me by now

If DGB is frustrated and/or wants to quit the site, that's her business. I would feel comfortable winning as scum so long as I didn't use that post of hers as some sort of excuse or explanation for why I couldn't be scum, and I played the game for my hydra and alignment as best I could. It would be stupid of you to try to use that to

confirm

me town anyway. That's hypothetical and irrelevent, though, because I don't happen to be scum.

I never said I would use it for that. I said the only purpose it seems to fufill is showing you agreeing with everybody that A&B is scum. And that sort of thing poses no use to getting new scum. Only thing it could be would be a pathetic attempt to make you look like everybody else. That was the feel I got from it. if you'll look at what I said earlier you'd see that what town should have done was try to analyze the wagon and see if vote X was bad reasoned and made player X scum

...

I told you that I had been busy and had let DGB fill most of our collective duties here, and I apologized for not being about too much. I felt I wed it to the game to do a complete, thorough reread, and saw no reason not to offer it up to everyone. I had to really get into this game and this was the best way I saw to do it. I do realize that not everything in my last post was still entirely relevent, but I think that it was a decent option, overall. If you can explain why it was more likely that I'm scum trying to look town than town/anyone trying to really catch up in the game and be open about all my thoughts on what's happened . . . I don't see a compelling reason for you to not be treating it as a nulltell.

...
You felt the need to make this point and yet you yourself didn't have a suspect to put your vote on at least semi-seriously. At least DGB was poking the lurkers; I'd say there's some value in that.

Vote: PoketheAlpaca

More later; am being kicked off the computer.

I move my vote when I find scum or think someone isn't. That's the way I've always done it. If I think Korlash isn't scum and don't have a new suspect

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 05#1177205

I don't revote. My vote serves a purpose while a random vote at that point served absolutly no purpose. She could have commented on the game that had started but instead she went straight back to the random stage.

Also, why is Orto a better choice than Zaphod, PtA?

I never said one was better than the other. What I said back there was Let's lynch them both.

We are willing to lynch both Zaphod and ortohoops. Willing to run them up asap.

My response to this
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 95#1669295
I wasn't attacking ortohoops for lack of content but attacking them primarily for their logic.

They said our wagon was oportunistic and that scum wouldn't post fluff; they helped lynch A&B with that attitude. They said my wagon was originally oportunistic and scum would avoid fluff; now they are on our wagon and say scum would do fluff. They said we fluff posted; Hoops did some too.

Basically they are going back on some key points of their logic as well as commiting things they once deemed wrong. I see that as hypocracy.

Vote: Ortohoops

I think that's a bit of a stretch.

Zaphod stated in their post prior to voting that they would be doing so if Apples and Banana's claim was 'unsatisfactory'.

Additionally, Trotsky/Raging Wishbone never pressured them into voting A&B but voted for a lack of erratic behavior from DGB.

Ok I must have the underlined part of that.
Trotsky and RW went after zaphod here and here
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 07#1655207
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 17#1660917
The very next post after each of those is a vote by Zaphod. Call it IRC habbit if you want but I related her moving then to something tthat had just happen thinking their votes could have influenced DGB's response. Still I think I'll re-read zaphod later with the underlined in mind.

I dislike implying credit for discussion by doing something questionable.
Also not quite seeing how the RVS questions from ortohoops to incamn and PtA to Yosariwen actually were meant to advance the game - they seem like questions for the sake of appearing to ask questions (also Yos never answered and PtA didn't seem to care)

Up until the alpha game played out, i had a good meta on Yosarian. EVERY game where I had seen him random vote he was town. EVERY game where he hadn't he was scum. He random voted in Alpha and I thought he could be town there and scum here. He was scum in alpha so I'm wondering if the town tell falling out there effects his non-random vote-age here. Haven't figured it out yet so that's why I have not really followed on it and been more so waiting for Yos's acknowledgement of those questions. If anybody wants to see a list of what game I had used to make that meta they can. The Alpha game was the first I ever saw to disprove the town tell I got on Yos and nothing yet has gone against the scum one.

Edit while previewing:

I read the thread and write a post and start getting ready for work and ortohoops posts. I'll read their last post later. Ain't got the time to right now

[Korts]

i agree with pokethealpaca on zaphod trying hard to look pro-town with her post-lynch a+b analysis. her defense hinges on people actually caring whether she found the already lynched sk scummy. all in all it looks like padding for her post.

vote zaphod

I'm not sure I'm buying Trotsky's defense that he thought A&B was mafia protecting a scumbuddy. Why would mafia claim vig/SK outing themselves to a killing role?

To clarify that should read, you thought Zaph was mafia protecting A&B mafia so you requested A&B kill Zaph.

the vig claim would obviously be stupid as mafia, it was from zaphod's initial ignorance of the a+b wagon that we suspected her, and the sudden switch and hard push on it implied hard bussing--which we would expect dgbscum to do in such a case.

the pta vs. ortohoops argument is pretty hypocritical of both re the fluffposting. both are reasonable wagons. we'll have to review them more seriously to have a solid opinion.

for reference i haven't read the walls o text from ojando onwards, will do that later.

[Korts]

well, so much for the lowercase format.

[Yosariwen]

Korts, for the love of God, please don't waste posts like that. There was absolutly no reason for you to make 2 posts in a row there. For that matter, there's no reason for you to be posting at all before you read the whole game; read the whole game, and then post all your thougts at once.

Yoswen's post is far scummier though.

Seriously? I spent 2 hours last night doing a hyper-detailed analysis of everything in the entiere game and every single person in the game, probably the longest and most meticulasly reserached scumhunting post I've done in any game all year, and that's your response? I find that kind of strange, honestly.

I was actually about to hammer A&B around the end of page 4; I thought he was scum for a lot of reasons, especally shaft.ed's "if they weren't scum, scum would have killed someone not on the wagon to lynch them" argument. (Which, actually, apparently wasn't true, which is interesing.) But then I decided to wait and give them one more chance to respond first; and I didn't want to spend a post just to SAY "I'm thinking about hammering you" like I would in a normal game.

I don't understand what the point of telling us this was, unless you're trying to get after-the-fact townpoints by saying you were willing to let a claimed SK/vig live.

Eh? Why the hell would any town person want to let a SK live, or how would anyone expect to get "pro-town points" for that?

I said it because it was true, and because people were curious about my thought process and why I hadn't posted in a while. The whole first part of that post was me catching up on the game and posting my thoughts and such as I did so. (that huge, monster post would normally have been like 3 posts, but I was trying to conserve posts.)

On a side note, if we could get together a second lynch today (that is, before end of page 12), and basically try to get off about 2 lynches a day, I think it would work to our advanage; 2 lynches/day would give us a favorable town kill/scum kill ratio without totally shutting down town night actions, if we can manage it while not being stupid . We also ideally want to make sure that person has a chance to claim before being hammered, though, so I think we want to a bandwagon going quickly here. (Also, for this reason, I think the pro-town thing to do here is for us to vote for someone during this post, rather then posting and not using our vote, and I will, although as of this point I honestly haven't decided who yet.)

Basically, you want to lynch twice within the next four pages, and "want to get a bandwagon going quickly here."

Yes, I would like to. Of course, lynching scum is more important then lynching quickly. Also, 4 pages is 100 posts; that should be pleanty of time to lynch someone (unless people keep wasting posts like Korts just did there).

I cannot understand how you can simultaneously want as many lynches as quickly as possible, and blatantly be trying to start a new wagon.

Because I want to lynch scum, and for reasons i explained, Raging Wishbone looks scummer to both me and to Nuwen then PTA does.

Remember, I *STARTED* the poke the alpaca wagon. I understand why he looks suspicious, and I continued to point out scumtells in the post I just made. However, if he was scum, I would kind of expect the wagon to not feel quite so easy and unopposed. In fact, the only person who was opposed to the PTA wagon so far was...you, who said at the time:

At the moment, the PokeTheAlpaca wagon looks very opportunistic.

Also, note that I certanly do NOT "want as many lynches as quickly as possible". That would be horrible stratagy, leading to lots of stupid bandwagons. I want about 2 lynches a day, ideally, which is enough to give us time to actually discuss stuff and attack people we find suspicious, while still giving us a significant advantage over the scum in terms of kill ratios. There's no need to just rapidly and blindly join every single wagon at the first oppertuinity just to secure more lynches like you seem to be suggesting; that would be terrible stratagy.

Do you really think that not blindly following wagons is a scum tell here? Is that seriously what you're suggesting? Or that "starting a bandwagon" is supposed to be a scum tell? Because I personally intend to continue to try to lynch people *I* think are scum, I'm not going to blindly follow wagons if I think there's somewhere better to put my vote. Deal with it.

This very, very much increases the probability of you being scum with PTA.

Interesting you should say that; I was just think your absurd reaction here (which is basically you attacking me for daring to find Raging Wishbone to be somewhat scummier then PTA) very, very much increases the possibility of you being scum with Raging Wishbone, especally if Poke the Alpaca flips town.

You also then blatantly equivocate between your contrary desires:

However, the ease of the wagon on PoketheAlpaca seems off to me; it seems too easy, no one seems to disagree with it at all. I can't quite explain it; I see scumtells and they look scummy on their own, but the wagon feels like it might be scum supported to me, or at least not scum opposed, if that makes sense; no one is arguing against this wagon, or trying to start a competing wagon, and that feels like a bad sign to me. Nuwen says she would like to see more people comment on this wagon.

So...now you want as many comments as possible on the wagon, prolonging the time it will take to lynch which you said just before you wanted to shorten? Your defence also makes no sense: "he's acting scummy but...I don't think he's scum".

People are posting and not commenting on the wagon at all, which I don't like. Are you really suggesting that it's scummy for me to want people to comment on a wagon before we lynch someone? How the hell do you expect to find scum if you want to just lynch people without any discussion about them? In fact, if you really are a pro-town person who really do think PTA is scum; if you really did think he was scum, you should be DEMANDING that EVERYONE post comments about him before the lynch, because that would help us find scum partners later. I can't understand why any pro-town person would be opposed to people commenting on the PTA lynch before it happens; you need to explain this to me.

Also, I didn't say "I don't think he's scum". At all. Or anything like it. I think he, personally, looks scummy when you read his posts individually, which by definition means "more likely to be scum then a random lynch would be".

However, while he, personally, looks somewhat scummy, I dislike the wagon on him, the way it's basically been unopposed, and the way no one tried to start a counter wagon. (And yes, I realize the irony here since you're now trying to accuse me of doing just that, but I don't care.)

The fact is, day 1, it's very rare a member of a scum group gets lynched, less likely then random in fact, because with no facts to go on, it's very easy for scum to stear the wagon away from each other. The fact that no one is trying to do that either means the other scum are willing to just bus PTA, or else that the wagon is a bad one; the feel *OF THE BANDWAGON* on PTA is making me kind of nervous.

If we get close to the (admittadly arbitraty) page 12 "deadline" I set, I might be willing to jump to the PTA wagon to secure a lynch before then. But there's absoltuy no reason to rush things; we've still got 4 pages left, and he's already at lynch -2, we have lots of time to explore other options, especally since he just looks scummier then PTA.

Another point:

I'm not really getting Ortohoop's case against poke the alpaca in post 154; could you explain that again in your next post, please?

I find it hard to believe you could be so unconvinced by our case on PTA in 154 (you never actually say what you have wrong with it), yet independently also come to the conclusion that they are scummy (while not voting them).

Um...dude...*I VOTED AND ATTACKED PTA LONG BEFORE YOU DID*. I started the wagon, remember? So what the are you talking about with questioning how *I* "independenlty came to the conclusion they are scummy". Hell, you were using MY argument to attack them in your post 154:

However PTA's constant diatribes about "fluff posting" become beyond hypocritical when they make not one but two completely useless posts on page 2, followed by a scummy PBPA.

That was the argument I used to start the PTA wagon in the first place. So don't act like you "don't understand why I find them scummy" when YOU are trying to ride MY coattails to attack them, ok?

I am curious about the other arguments you were trying to use in 154, because the REST of the arguments you were using to attack him seemed pretty illogical to me, and I would like you to explain them. Especally wher you attack him because he attacked Zaphod for not voting; "not voting" is generally a decent scumtell, and especally in a game like this where you should really be using your vote at all times.

Although apparently, rather then explain your attacks on PTA, or respond to my reasons for thinking Raging Wishbone looks scummier, you'd rather just attack anyone who dosn't blindly follow you. Nice.

*12. Raging Wishbone (Raging Rabbit+WaltWishbone): This one is mostly Nuwen's read; she dislikes the way that they put A&B at lynch -1 right after it was pointed out that putting someone at lynch -1 is dangerous, and also the way the other head then unvoted in order to try and use the kill. I agree; the post where Raging Wishbone unvotes and tries to get us to keep A&B alive so we can "direct their kill" is really anti-town to me, especally since town can lynch multiple times a day anyway. Nuwen also thinks their post 131 looks kind of "fluffy", in a scummy kind of way. (Funny side note: once slipped and called Pesco-Light "Pesco-Town". I have no idea if that means anything, but seems worth mentioning while I'm thinking abut it.)

Really don't like the misdirection in deferring the read to "mostly being Nuwen's" here.

Ok, your first sentance is complete garbage. Me and Nuwen were talking as I was writing that post, she made the observations, and I agreed with them. Why should it matter to you if the thought origionally came from me or from Nuwen? Why are you making such a big deal out of irrelevent side issues here?

You also totally fail to explain what motivation a mafia player could have for wanting an extra town-directed kill in play.

First, the one head put him at lynch -1 without giving him a chance to claim, right after that had been pointed out to be anti-town, since scum can insta-lynch anyone who is at lynch -1 in this game by just daykilling someone not on the wagon. At the very least, this demonstrates a carelessness that looks scummy.

Then, the other head saying "let's keep the SK alive so we can direct him" is even worse, in my opinion.

I said it was anti-town, and it was. Anti-town means "bad for the town". There is absolutly no reason a pro-town person should want to keep a SK alive, just in order to "direct the kill." Especally in a game when town can lynch multiple times a day anyway.

Lynching a SK day 1 is one of the best things that can possibly happen for the town; it extends the game, means less nightkills, more lynches. In general, nightkills give the town much less information then lynches do, so they hurt the town more then they hurt the mafia.

Any pro-town person who has a chance to eliminate an anti-town role day 1 like that should be jumping for joy. Instead, he unvoted, after it became apparent he was a SK. At the very LEAST, it seems like he was trying to stall an inevitable lynch, which is also anti-town in this game. At the most, he was trying to prevent the SK from being lynched in a situation where lynching the SK would clearly improve the town's chances of winning.

Basically, I don't think he's on my side, because there's no reason a pro-town person should act like that.

Your case is very, very weak; another reason you distracting from the PTA wagon is scummy.

Again, all you can think about is the PTA wagon. Why are you in such a rush? You do realize that two competing bandwagons is inherently better for the town and inhererenly provides more information to the town then a day with only one wagon, right? I do hope we lynch someone by page 12, but it's only page 8 right now.

*10. PoketheAlpaca (PokerFace+populartajo) : Along with the other things that have been pointed out, possible link to Raging Wishbone, in this post where he defends Raging wishbone.

We disagree with your opinion here. Both town and scum could want to keep a claimed Vig alive. That way the "vig" would kill people for them
* Scum would want "Vig" to wipe out town. Direct the "vig" to kill other townies
* Town would want "Vig" to kill scum
It is a null tell. If RW is town they clearly did not realize Town has infinite lynches and wouldn't need to direct the vig.

You've actually entirely misinterpreting this, because PTA was

not

defending RW

at all

, but actually trying to argue against our point that RW wanting to keep the SK/vig alive was a town-tell.

Wait...really?

You were trying to argue that RW wanting to keep the SK alive was a *TOWN* tell?

Hahaha.

Man, you make this easy. I think we just found RW's scumbuddy here.

Fos:Ortohoops

This also shows how little sense your stance on RW/PTA makes, because you speculate about a connection between both RW and PTA, while deliberately neglecting one wagon in favour of starting another.

"delibreately neglecting"? Everyone who isn't voting PTA is "delibratly neglecting" the PTA wagon just as much as I am. The only difference is I'm actually using my vote to hunt scum; in this case, someone who's more likely to be scum then PTA is, IMHO.

Anyway:

Up until the alpha game played out, i had a good meta on Yosarian. EVERY game where I had seen him random vote he was town. EVERY game where he hadn't he was scum.

Lol.

I random vote just about 50% of the time when I'm town, and just about 50% of the time when I'm scum. Other factors affect it, certanly, but I actually make an effort to try to keep it close to that number when I can, for meta reasons that I'm not going to go into right now.

Nice try to come up with a Yos tell, though. Pretty sure that's just a factor of the relitivly small number of games we've played together, though.

[Raging Wishbone]

Ok, dropping off a quick note and answering questions...me and RR our VLA until Sunday and into late next week...considering the speed of this game, it should not be a problem....

Korts, for the love of God, please don't waste posts like that. There was absolutly no reason for you to make 2 posts in a row there. For that matter, there's no reason for you to be posting at all before you read the whole game; read the whole game, and then post all your thougts at once.

Yoswen's post is far scummier though.

Seriously? I spent 2 hours last night doing a hyper-detailed analysis of everything in the entiere game and every single person in the game, probably the longest and most meticulasly reserached scumhunting post I've done in any game all year, and that's your response? I find that kind of strange, honestly.

ROFL, dude I spent 20 hours on Alpha on endgame and was wrong, glad you had a good two hours. Korts post was fine!

Fucking Jscope - nice job by the way, you crushed us by voting NYBalls instead of hoops... he was so town in that game and I was so wrong....

*10. PoketheAlpaca (PokerFace+populartajo) : Along with the other things that have been pointed out, possible link to Raging Wishbone, in this post where he defends Raging wishbone.

We disagree with your opinion here. Both town and scum could want to keep a claimed Vig alive. That way the "vig" would kill people for them
* Scum would want "Vig" to wipe out town. Direct the "vig" to kill other townies
* Town would want "Vig" to kill scum
It is a null tell. If RW is town they clearly did not realize Town has infinite lynches and wouldn't need to direct the vig.

...or genius we saw something you didn't.

Interesting you should say that; I was just think your absurd reaction here (which is basically you attacking me for daring to find Raging Wishbone to be somewhat scummier then PTA) very, very much increases the possibility of you being scum with Raging Wishbone, especally if Poke the Alpaca flips town.

This ain't the Alpha game, I know Tajo will flip town and it ain't cause I am scum! But than again he aint getting lynched today I hope!

I think we just found RW's scumbuddy here.

Fos:Ortohoops

lol, meh wrong, lmao....

@Othohoops - great gane in Alpha, I am sorry I was pressured on time and did not know if RR would have a chance to check the thread before I returned today... He called JScope scum in daytalk and I screwed it up by not voting with ya! *gah* I almost quit tooo!, lol

Posting these notes here because Adel locked the Alpha thread and I owe Hoops, Raging Rabbit an apology for botching that game, I also owe Jscope sincere props and Kudos...also thanks to Adel for setting these games up...

*pinches Santa Claus ass*

Boy or girl Joking, lol

...and this ain't fluff, I agree with everything Orthohoops wrote and have a bit to add....

Nice try to come up with a Yos tell, though.

-

Yos tail = easy... any time you try to defend Nuwens lack of intelligence and vocabulary and understanding of the game. Everyone here knows she ain't that stupid Dude... quit patronizing her, writing things that make her look stupid...kinda looks scummy because she does not seem to be a retard.

This is not an omgus vote it is bassd on ALPHA!

Otrhohoop presented a brilliant case against yah and all you tired to do was slither your way ouit of it like a snake,....and this game I will trust his judgment more!

VOTE: Yosariwen

[Ojando]

Ortohoops post 39

It's almost kind of ironic that my

non-game related post

has sparked more game related discussion than almost all the random votes.

I dislike implying credit for discussion by doing something questionable.

You haven't actually explained why her action was "questionable", you just seem to be bandwagoning with a whole bunch of other people who have attacked her "suggestions for approaching the game" style posting.

See the bolded part from the quote. I wouldn't have thought that needed clarification in this game. Post wasting is inherently bad, since it was on first page I labeled it questionable instead of a stronger word.

Also not quite seeing how the RVS questions from ortohoops to incamn and PtA to Yosariwen actually were meant to advance the game - they seem like questions for the sake of appearing to ask questions (also Yos never answered and PtA didn't seem to care)

What is the point here? What have you concluded from the fact they didn't bother to answer our questions?

Incamn did answer your question. Yos didn't answer PTA. The point was that the question from Hoopla and especially the questions from PTA seemed artificial to me. Since I didn't see the point of the questions, Yos not answering didn't drive me to conclusions. PTA not following up drove me to the conclusion that he wasn't that interested in the answers, which supported the thought of the chit-chatty nature of the questions. This is now a bit dated since PTA claimed in his last post he was trying some kind of a meta trap.

Ortohoops 154 - ortolan is defending Hoopla's fluff with fluff.

You're bringing a startling lack of substance to the allegations against us. Once you label an original post as "fluff", that obligates us to respond do it, yet all you can say about the response is "oh that's fluff" again. ... ....

That did come out more in a self-note mode.
We were referring to the "the other half did it" defence. Your heads seem to have very different take on things and that could be a convenient way to contradict yourself without having to take responsability. That being said, at the moment we are much more interested in pursuing PtA whose heads contradict timewise simultaneously in their attack and defence.


@Raging Wishbone

This ain't the Alpha game, I know Tajo will flip town and it ain't cause I am scum! But than again he aint getting lynched today I hope!

This is the second time you say strongly that you find PTA town, I wish you would just get on and give your reasons for thinking so already.
You call Ortohoops' case on Yos brilliant, but at the same time that case relied mostly on the suspicion that PTA is scum. Contradiction?

[Yosarian2]

ROFL, dude I spent 20 hours on Alpha on endgame and was wrong, glad you had a good two hours. Korts post was fine!

Ok, now trying to bring emotion from the Alpha game, when I was scum, into the game here in order to manipluate the town. Scum tactic.

Interesting you should say that; I was just think your absurd reaction here (which is basically you attacking me for daring to find Raging Wishbone to be somewhat scummier then PTA) very, very much increases the possibility of you being scum with Raging Wishbone, especally if Poke the Alpaca flips town.

This ain't the Alpha game, I know Tajo will flip town and it ain't cause I am scum! But than again he aint getting lynched today I hope!

Interesting; he's at lynch -2 now, and Ortohoops entire post was him attacking me because I didn't put him at lynch -1 now. So why are you attacking me here?

Yos tail = easy... any time you try to defend Nuwens lack of intelligence and vocabulary and understanding of the game. Everyone here knows she ain't that stupid Dude... quit patronizing her, writing things that make her look stupid...kinda looks scummy because she does not seem to be a retard.

Excuse me? When in this game did I ever say anything like that?

I've never "patrionized her" or "written anything that called her stupid". She's certanly not. All I did there was mention that some of the observations in that post were origionally hers; and they were good observations, and ones I certanly agreed with. For example, she was the one who first noticed how scummy your actions regarding the AB wagon was, she was the one who figured out that you are scum.

Although I think you're still just talking about the alpha game here, which again, is scummy.

This is not an omgus vote it is bassd on ALPHA!

Otrhohoop presented a brilliant case against yah and all you tired to do was slither your way ouit of it like a snake,....and this game I will trust his judgment more!

VOTE: Yosariwen

Again, in this game, his ENTIRE CASE on me was based on me not wanting to put PTA at lynch -1 just yet. How can you think his case on me is "brilliant" if you don't think PTA is scum?

----

This post by RW really makes me happy with my vote on him. He's just trying to manipulate the entire town by using emotions from the alpha game, which clearly has nothing to do with this game. He claims that his vote on me "isn't OMGUS", but that's cleary garbage since the only reason (related to THIS game) that he gave was "Otrhohoop's case" and he clearly dosn't believe Otrhohoops case. Other then that, everything else in this post was scummy attempts to manipulate the emotions of the town by constant references to the alpha game, and trying to use that as an excuse to undermine our case against him. He can't defend himself against our case on him, so instead he's trying to undermine it by attacking me in a scummy, manipulative way.

RW is obvscum here, and we need to lynch him now.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

@ Yosariwen

I don't understand why you're voting RW when Poke is another main suspect of yours, has a far larger wagon, and you think Poke may be RW's buddy. To wit: "*10. PoketheAlpaca (PokerFace+populartajo) : Along with the other things that have been pointed out, possible link to Raging Wishbone, in this post where he defends Raging wishbone. "

[Yosarian2]

@ Yosariwen

I don't understand why you're voting RW when Poke is another main suspect of yours, has a far larger wagon, and you think Poke may be RW's buddy. To wit: "*10. PoketheAlpaca (PokerFace+populartajo) : Along with the other things that have been pointed out, possible link to Raging Wishbone, in this post where he defends Raging wishbone. "

Because RW is far scummier.

Tajo is kind of scummy; he's more likely to be scum then a random lynch. On the other hand, RW is incredibly obvscum, especally after that last post of theirs where they came up with a series of really illogical and contradictory excuses to OMGUS vote me (while specifically denying they were OMGUS voting, of course ) and tried to manipulate the town using the alpha game.

If we lynch tajo, I won't be unhappy, but I really want to lynch RW right now.

[ortolan]

In this game:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8926
I PF was scum. And everybody (Town and Scum) tried to use DGB (Who was a very powerful Vig) to kill other players since you were allowed 2 day kills a day and or only 1 lynch. Not even for a second did my scum group think of killing DGB. etc. etc.

This is pretty much a point made with a sample size of one in a game with different circumstances. In this game the vidge/SK gets to make a new kill every action phase in a smallish game. Additionally not knowing whether they are town or self-aligned makes their actions unpredictable to other scum-players. Scum players would also potentially be scared of town reaching consensus on who the vidge/SK should kill and targetting them or their scumbuddies. Finally I see him as, if he was scum, wanting to not have to waste his kill on him that action phase (surely he'd prefer to get him lynched and choose a different target). As I said it's not an overwhelming town tell but I still view it as a town tell nonetheless.

They said our wagon was oportunistic and that scum wouldn't post fluff; they helped lynch A&B with that attitude. They said my wagon was originally oportunistic and scum would avoid fluff; now they are on our wagon and say scum would do fluff. They said we fluff posted; Hoops did some too.

Basically they are going back on some key points of their logic as well as commiting things they once deemed wrong. I see that as hypocracy.

This summarises the main two points we are being attacked for this game: the first is supposedly "fluff posting" while attacking others for fluff posting. Now I acknowledge that some of what Hoops posted was sloppy, especially when she then wanted to attack other people for wasting posts. However, in the scheme of things, none of our posts have been as wasteful as for example PTA's or Zmd's or Death The Hogfather's or Korts' or J-Scope's or Zaphod Beeblebrox's; all of whom have made at least one post

entirely

devoid of game or meta related content from my brief check of the last few pages.

The other point is that "our" read on PTA differed between different points in the game. As should have been obvious from for example, the difference in purple and black text, that was two different people reading. Hoops made the first post without consulting me, and while I was doing Alpha I kind of expected her to post here but she had to move countries so when we got prodded I took it upon myself to make the post and could not ignore PTA's blatant scumminess- I could not consult her at the time and still haven't had a proper opportunity to talk to her about this game. Nevertheless, I very much disagree with PTA's wagon being "opportunistic". So, PTA, with my rebuttal to these two points in mind, I would urge you to very strongly reconsider your view you are not OMGUSing us, as neither of your points have merit imo (your case against us in light of these points is even weaker which leads me to wonder how much scumhunting rather than OMGUSing scum-style you're actually trying to do).

i agree with pokethealpaca on zaphod trying hard to look pro-town with her post-lynch a+b analysis. her defense hinges on people actually caring whether she found the already lynched sk scummy. all in all it looks like padding for her post.

vote zaphod

Weeeeeak vote.

the vig claim would obviously be stupid as mafia, it was from zaphod's initial ignorance of the a+b wagon that we suspected her, and the sudden switch and hard push on it implied hard bussing--which we would expect dgbscum to do in such a case.

Except they're not scum with A&B?

the pta vs. ortohoops argument is pretty hypocritical of both re the fluffposting. both are reasonable wagons. we'll have to review them more seriously to have a solid opinion.

Um, you've made at least two entirely useless posts in this game (see your subsequent post, 184, as well as 174). This puts you on far, far worse footing than us, however hypocritical you want to be; sorry about that. Consider a self-vote though.

Seriously? I spent 2 hours last night doing a hyper-detailed analysis of everything in the entiere game and every single person in the game, probably the longest and most meticulasly reserached scumhunting post I've done in any game all year, and that's your response? I find that kind of strange, honestly.

WIFOM? This being valid hinges on you actually being town.

Basically, you want to lynch twice within the next four pages, and "want to get a bandwagon going quickly here."

Yes, I would like to. Of course, lynching scum is more important then lynching quickly. Also, 4 pages is 100 posts; that should be pleanty of time to lynch someone (unless people keep wasting posts like Korts just did there).

I cannot understand how you can simultaneously want as many lynches as quickly as possible, and blatantly be trying to start a new wagon.

Because I want to lynch scum, and for reasons i explained, Raging Wishbone looks scummer to both me and to Nuwen then PTA does.

Remember, I *STARTED* the poke the alpaca wagon. I understand why he looks suspicious, and I continued to point out scumtells in the post I just made. However, if he was scum, I would kind of expect the wagon to not feel quite so easy and unopposed. In fact, the only person who was opposed to the PTA wagon so far was...you, who said at the time:

At the moment, the PokeTheAlpaca wagon looks very opportunistic.

The point I am making is that calling for faster lynches then avoiding a healthy wagon on your "second" largest suspect in favour of your supposed first is disingenuous. And how can you prove your earlier vote on PTA wasn't simple distancing??? Your point about the "easy and unopposed wagon" I also do not like- that is an extremely subjective notion and you could potentially make that argument of pretty much any bandwagon in the game. Plus you've seen people's subsequent reticence in joining the PTA wagon anyhow. I also note you rely on the implied hypocrisy of our apparent "shift in opinions" here.

People are posting and not commenting on the wagon at all, which I don't like. Are you really suggesting that it's scummy for me to want people to comment on a wagon before we lynch someone? How the hell do you expect to find scum if you want to just lynch people without any discussion about them? In fact, if you really are a pro-town person who really do think PTA is scum; if you really did think he was scum, you should be DEMANDING that EVERYONE post comments about him before the lynch, because that would help us find scum partners later. I can't understand why any pro-town person would be opposed to people commenting on the PTA lynch before it happens; you need to explain this to me.

Where did I say I didn't want people commenting on his wagon? All I have said is that your position of both wanting more lynches while starting fresh new bandwagons and neglecting those of people you admit to find scummy is inconsistent.

The fact that no one is trying to do that either means the other scum are willing to just bus PTA, or else that the wagon is a bad one; the feel *OF THE BANDWAGON* on PTA is making me kind of nervous.

If PTA's buddies

were

busing him it still would be a fantastic wagon. I don't see how a *feel* can simultaneously make you think someone is being bused; or they are town and not being bused- surely those two circumstances would have unique and distinct tells?

If we get close to the (admittadly arbitraty) page 12 "deadline" I set, I might be willing to jump to the PTA wagon to secure a lynch before then. But there's absoltuy no reason to rush things; we've still got 4 pages left, and he's already at lynch -2, we have lots of time to explore other options, especally since he just looks scummier then PTA.

Wait didn't you say you wanted

two

lynches an action phase? Why would you switch wagons at an arbitrary point in day 12 anyway (apart from it being just before a new action phase)?

That was the argument I used to start the PTA wagon in the first place. So don't act like you "don't understand why I find them scummy" when YOU are trying to ride MY coattails to attack them, ok?

How does observing apparently the same things as you constitute "riding your coattails"? Why is it not plausible that you attempted to distance from PTA and are now trying to undermine his wagon having seen it go too far?

I am curious about the other arguments you were trying to use in 154, because the REST of the arguments you were using to attack him seemed pretty illogical to me, and I would like you to explain them. Especally wher you attack him because he attacked Zaphod for not voting; "not voting" is generally a decent scumtell, and especally in a game like this where you should really be using your vote at all times.

Although apparently, rather then explain your attacks on PTA, or respond to my reasons for thinking Raging Wishbone looks scummier, you'd rather just attack anyone who dosn't blindly follow you. Nice.

I don't even understand your point about Zaphod not voting- I just looked back and they were voting the whole time and were actively commenting on the A&B wagon while it was going on. It's also funny that you comment on this while seemingly completely ignoring PokerFace's almost total and blatant ignoring of the situation in post 99. Apart from this, again, I ask, explain to you what was illogical about our attacks on PTA- I've asked you to clarify twice now and you totally ignore the question.

Ok, your first sentance is complete garbage. Me and Nuwen were talking as I was writing that post, she made the observations, and I agreed with them. Why should it matter to you if the thought origionally came from me or from Nuwen? Why are you making such a big deal out of irrelevent side issues here?

It seemed to me you wanted to have it both ways and were introducing Nuwen's supposed read as a way of segueing from supporting a PTA lynch to an RW lynch. I thought you yourself were disowning responsibility for the attack on RW- if you yourself are happy to support your hydra's attack on RW I would drop this point.

First, the one head put him at lynch -1 without giving him a chance to claim, right after that had been pointed out to be anti-town, since scum can insta-lynch anyone who is at lynch -1 in this game by just daykilling someone not on the wagon. At the very least, this demonstrates a carelessness that looks scummy.

Then, the other head saying "let's keep the SK alive so we can direct him" is even worse, in my opinion.

I said it was anti-town, and it was. Anti-town means "bad for the town". There is absolutly no reason a pro-town person should want to keep a SK alive, just in order to "direct the kill." Especally in a game when town can lynch multiple times a day anyway.

Lynching a SK day 1 is one of the best things that can possibly happen for the town; it extends the game, means less nightkills, more lynches. In general, nightkills give the town much less information then lynches do, so they hurt the town more then they hurt the mafia.

The problem is these two don't work in conjunction. You are attempting to have your cake and eat it too. You want to call him scummy for being "careless" by leaving an SK on L-1, but you also want to attack him for not wanting the SK killed.

Wait...really?

You were trying to argue that RW wanting to keep the SK alive was a *TOWN* tell?

Hahaha.

Man, you make this easy. I think we just found RW's scumbuddy here.

Fos:Ortohoops

Um...are you seriously claiming not to have understood the point we've just been contesting in the last serious of posts? And you think that's a justification for FoSing me at that????

@Othohoops - great gane in Alpha, I am sorry I was pressured on time and did not know if RR would have a chance to check the thread before I returned today... He called JScope scum in daytalk and I screwed it up by not voting with ya! *gah* I almost quit tooo!, lol

Posting these notes here because Adel locked the Alpha thread and I owe Hoops, Raging Rabbit an apology for botching that game, I also owe Jscope sincere props and Kudos...also thanks to Adel for setting these games up...

*pinches Santa Claus ass*

No hard feelings, friend.

This ain't the Alpha game, I know Tajo will flip town and it ain't cause I am scum! But than again he aint getting lynched today I hope!

I am kind of curious about this- we seem to agree that Yosarian is suspicious but in my mind that's largely because of the way he's detracting from the PTA wagon, while you're assuring us he's obv-town.

See the bolded part from the quote. I wouldn't have thought that needed clarification in this game. Post wasting is inherently bad, since it was on first page I labeled it questionable instead of a stronger word.

I would like to see you attack the large number of people who are even more guilty of it than us even harder then please.

That did come out more in a self-note mode.
We were referring to the "the other half did it" defence. Your heads seem to have very different take on things and that could be a convenient way to contradict yourself without having to take responsability. That being said, at the moment we are much more interested in pursuing PtA whose heads contradict timewise simultaneously in their attack and defence.

Believe me if I was scum I would try far harder to ensure our opinions supposedly appeared "united".

This is the second time you say strongly that you find PTA town, I wish you would just get on and give your reasons for thinking so already.
You call Ortohoops' case on Yos brilliant, but at the same time that case relied mostly on the suspicion that PTA is scum. Contradiction?

I second this question.

Ok, now trying to bring emotion from the Alpha game, when I was scum, into the game here in order to manipluate the town. Scum tactic.

Um how exactly?

Interesting; he's at lynch -2 now, and Ortohoops entire post was him attacking me because I didn't put him at lynch -1 now. So why are you attacking me here?

He is at four votes which is actually L-3.

Although I think you're still just talking about the alpha game here, which again, is scummy.

???

Again, in this game, his ENTIRE CASE on me was based on me not wanting to put PTA at lynch -1 just yet. How can you think his case on me is "brilliant" if you don't think PTA is scum?

Fair point.

RW is obvscum here, and we need to lynch him now.

You sound

very

certain here.

@ Yosariwen

I don't understand why you're voting RW when Poke is another main suspect of yours, has a far larger wagon, and you think Poke may be RW's buddy. To wit: "*10. PoketheAlpaca (PokerFace+populartajo) : Along with the other things that have been pointed out, possible link to Raging Wishbone, in this post where he defends Raging wishbone. "

I concur, your excellency.

Because RW is far scummier.

Tajo is kind of scummy; he's more likely to be scum then a random lynch. On the other hand, RW is incredibly obvscum, especally after that last post of theirs where they came up with a series of really illogical and contradictory excuses to OMGUS vote me (while specifically denying they were OMGUS voting, of course ) and tried to manipulate the town using the alpha game.

If we lynch tajo, I won't be unhappy, but I really want to lynch RW right now.

Your expressed reasons are, again, weak.

[Zmd]

It's possible that your partner will say something and you don't know why they said it or you don't even agree with it. I agree that it isn't a major issue though as you can easily say "I don't know why my partner said that" or "I disagree with my partner."

Why are you talking to someone that replaced out, like, over a week ago?

I was catching up, so I stated my opinion.

I disagree to an extent. Scum will still want to rush things a little. I expect to see a mix. Scum who are trying to sneak in extra posts and scum who lurk.

Is that disagreeing with the essence of what Ortohoops said though? That scum would jump on someone for fluff posting?

I think scum might jump on that, but I see town getting genuinely frustrated with fluff too, so I won't use attacking fluff posting as a point against anyone.

Scum are Ortohoops, Trotsky, and Death The Hogfather.

You gave scumpoints to Trotsky and said Ortohoops was opportunistic, but you didn't mention Death the Hogfather in that post. How is he scum?

Gut. And I think he made a vote I didn't like the timing of.

Looking at him in isolation, I probably didn't like the A&B vote.

Zmd why do you list three people as confident scum but not vote for any of them? Also as J-Scope pointed out, what has Death of Hogfather done to specifically warrant scum inclusion?

I listed my top three suspects. I don't have a huge case on any of them, but I have a strong feeling that Trotsky is scum trying to use as many posts as possible.

Vote Trotsky

Second question answered above.

Zmd is generally empty on content. Post 168, the only that has multiple comments, seems to be reads from gut that will not give us much. Please elaborate. The reason voiced for Trotsky's scummyness (relatively many posts first 2 pages), for example, would apply also to other players (like Pta, who Zmd declares town).

I tend to use my gut quite a bit for my suspicions. Logic is used to persuade people. I'll get to that when I'm more sure on someone. My gut reads are still Trotsky, Ortohoops, and Hogfather.

PTA was scummy as town in the other game, so I'm a little slow to jump on them.

I wish ZMD didn't make the "prodded will post soon" post number 148. That's still anti-town, and probably scummy as well since scum would like to get us to drift past 12 pages without a lynch.

Didn't realize it was anti-town until after I said it. Won't do it again. I'm used to being active in games, so I'm still getting used to trying not to post too much.

Leaning scum

*3. Zmd (ZazieR+Kmd4390) : Several non-content posts. Has only made one post this game with content, and I don't agree with any of it.

Several? I think the only non-content post I've made was the "will catch up" post. Everything else has had content. And you of all people should know that just because you disagree with someone doesn't make them scum. Just like agreeing with someone doesn't make them town.

-----------------

Read Trotsky/Korts/Rofl in isolation and tell me they aren't scum.

[Yosariwen]

I'm not sure if continuning to go back and fourth on this forever is a good idea, since I don't want to waste too many posts. But I'm quite confident RW is scum, and frankly the sudden, unexpected, and harsh resistance I'm suddenly getting to the idea of lynching him is making me a lot more confident I'm going in the right direction.

This is pretty much a point made with a sample size of one in a game with different circumstances. In this game the vidge/SK gets to make a new kill every action phase in a smallish game. Additionally not knowing whether they are town or self-aligned makes their actions unpredictable to other scum-players. Scum players would also potentially be scared of town reaching consensus on who the vidge/SK should kill and targetting them or their scumbuddies. Finally I see him as, if he was scum, wanting to not have to waste his kill on him that action phase (surely he'd prefer to get him lynched and choose a different target). As I said it's not an overwhelming town tell but I still view it as a town tell nonetheless.

None of that makes it a "town tell" at all. You talk about a SK's actions being "unpredictable to scum players"; sure, but it's a lot MORE unpredictable to TOWN players, who after all are usually the ones who end up getting killed by a Sk. You talk about scum being worried about a "town consensus" deciding to direct the SK to kill a scum, but that dosn't make any sense either; if there's town consensus, town can just lynch again anyway. And if a SK is outed, scum really aren't worried about the SK beating them; if you get into a endgame scenerio where the SK can't be lynched, or where he's starting to become at threat to the town, scum can just kill him; town don't have that option, if you get into a 2-1-2 endgame or something town has absolutly no way of getting rid of the SK at all.

The SK, ESPECALLY an open and outed SK, is a MUCH bigger threat to the town then to the scum, and leaving him alive is MUCH more anti-town then it is anti-scum.

Seriously? I spent 2 hours last night doing a hyper-detailed analysis of everything in the entiere game and every single person in the game, probably the longest and most meticulasly reserached scumhunting post I've done in any game all year, and that's your response? I find that kind of strange, honestly.

WIFOM? This being valid hinges on you actually being town.

Huh? That dosn't make any sense at all.

It's very rare that I make a post containing a huge amount of detailed, carefully thought out, and extensivly explained analysis, to the extent that I just did, and someone's first reactions is "Woah, that post makes Yosarian look scummy!" So, yeah, I find your reaction there quite strange and unexpected. That's not "wifom", nor does it really have anything to do with my alignment.

Basically, you want to lynch twice within the next four pages, and "want to get a bandwagon going quickly here."

Yes, I would like to. Of course, lynching scum is more important then lynching quickly. Also, 4 pages is 100 posts; that should be pleanty of time to lynch someone (unless people keep wasting posts like Korts just did there).

I cannot understand how you can simultaneously want as many lynches as quickly as possible, and blatantly be trying to start a new wagon.

Because I want to lynch scum, and for reasons i explained, Raging Wishbone looks scummer to both me and to Nuwen then PTA does.

Remember, I *STARTED* the poke the alpaca wagon. I understand why he looks suspicious, and I continued to point out scumtells in the post I just made. However, if he was scum, I would kind of expect the wagon to not feel quite so easy and unopposed. In fact, the only person who was opposed to the PTA wagon so far was...you, who said at the time:

At the moment, the PokeTheAlpaca wagon looks very opportunistic.

The point I am making is that calling for faster lynches then avoiding a healthy wagon on your "second" largest suspect in favour of your supposed first is disingenuous.

Eh? I want us to lynch someone by page 12, so I made sure to try and find the scummiest person in the game and vote for him. Everyone should be voting right now, because we're on a time sceduale.

Why should I settle for the second best wagon when I think I can probably get someone who I think is much more likely to be scum lynched? I mean, if it really looks like the RW wagon isn't going to happen by page 12, I might be willing to settle on someone else.

And how can you prove your earlier vote on PTA wasn't simple distancing???

Now, that's a scummy thing to say, since obviously no one can ever prove anything of the sort.

Anyway, of course I can't prove that if PTA is scum, any more then you can prove you were not bussing him if he flips scum. However, I was pointing out that it's the hight of absurdity for you to act like I couldn't possibly suspect PTA on my own, when I *started* the wagon, and your arguments were heavily based on the ones I already made.

That really makes me think that either you're not paying attention to the game, or that you wanted to find some kind of excuse to attack me in response to my RW attack and didn't worry about being to careful with the facts. Which, again, points to you as a possible RW scum partner.

Your point about the "easy and unopposed wagon" I also do not like- that is an extremely subjective notion and you could potentially make that argument of pretty much any bandwagon in the game.

Huh? No, a lot of bandwagons are opposed in certain games. This RW wagon, for example, seems to have gotten a huge backlash for no apparent reason.

Plus you've seen people's subsequent reticence in joining the PTA wagon anyhow. I also note you rely on the implied hypocrisy of our apparent "shift in opinions" here.

No, there's nothing hypocitical about changing your mind; pro-town people should change their mind, all the time.

It's odd, though, that you don't understand what I mean when I say that the wagon feels too easy when you yourself said almost the exact same thing earlier in the game. Again, makes me think you're more interested in attacking me to try to bully me back off of the RW vote and back onto the PTA wagon then you are in actually scumhunting

People are posting and not commenting on the wagon at all, which I don't like. Are you really suggesting that it's scummy for me to want people to comment on a wagon before we lynch someone? How the hell do you expect to find scum if you want to just lynch people without any discussion about them? In fact, if you really are a pro-town person who really do think PTA is scum; if you really did think he was scum, you should be DEMANDING that EVERYONE post comments about him before the lynch, because that would help us find scum partners later. I can't understand why any pro-town person would be opposed to people commenting on the PTA lynch before it happens; you need to explain this to me.

Where did I say I didn't want people commenting on his wagon? All I have said is that your position of both wanting more lynches while starting fresh new bandwagons and neglecting those of people you admit to find scummy is inconsistent.

That's not "all you said." Right here, you attacked me for wanting people to comment on the PTA wagon:

So...now you want as many comments as possible on the wagon, prolonging the time it will take to lynch which you said just before you wanted to shorten?

And again, you seem to fail to have understood what I said. "We should lynch about 2 people every 12 pages" does NOT mean that we should lynch someone every single chance we get no matter what without any chance for discussion first. I hate the way you're trying to pretend my position is something it isn't, and then trying to use that misinterpretation to pretend that I somehow contradicted myself.

The fact that no one is trying to do that either means the other scum are willing to just bus PTA, or else that the wagon is a bad one; the feel *OF THE BANDWAGON* on PTA is making me kind of nervous.

If PTA's buddies

were

busing him it still would be a fantastic wagon. I don't see how a *feel* can simultaneously make you think someone is being bused; or they are town and not being bused- surely those two circumstances would have unique and distinct tells?

Interesting thought. Do you think PTA is scum and is being bussed, then? Who do you think is bussing him, and what unique and distinct tells do you see?

Obviously if PTA is being bussed he's a great wagon. But scum don't really bus all that often, in my experence, especally a good player like Tajo who's being wagoned for reasons that aren't especally strong.

If we get close to the (admittadly arbitraty) page 12 "deadline" I set, I might be willing to jump to the PTA wagon to secure a lynch before then. But there's absoltuy no reason to rush things; we've still got 4 pages left, and he's already at lynch -2, we have lots of time to explore other options, especally since he just looks scummier then PTA.

Wait didn't you say you wanted

two

lynches an action phase? Why would you switch wagons at an arbitrary point in day 12 anyway (apart from it being just before a new action phase)?

Yes, I want 2 lynches per action phase. We've already had one lynch this action phase, so I would like another one by about page 12.

That's not something that we need to stick to absolutly or anything, but I think it's a good thing to shoot for. We don't want to dilly-dally to the point where scum get too many extra kills off, but on the other hand, we don't want to rush too much either; that rush to LYNCH LYNCH LYNCH without thinking or discussing anything just completly destroyed the town in War in Heaven mafia, IMHO. 2 lynches a day seems like a happy medium for me, a speed we should be able to keep up without stifiling discussion too much.

And, since town tends to not do anything these days without a deadline, I think it would be in our best interest to basically going to treat that 2 lynch/12 page thing like a "soft" deadline, something to spur discussion and keep the game moving, although something we can certanly break if we have good reason to do so.

That's the best pro-town stratagy I can come up with for how to use the rules of this game to our advantage, anyway.

That was the argument I used to start the PTA wagon in the first place. So don't act like you "don't understand why I find them scummy" when YOU are trying to ride MY coattails to attack them, ok?

How does observing apparently the same things as you constitute "riding your coattails"? Why is it not plausible that you attempted to distance from PTA and are now trying to undermine his wagon having seen it go too far?

I made a case against him, you then either used part of that my case or else observed the same thing later in the game, and then you suddenly "don't understand" why I am suspicious of Tajo. That was the part of your post that I have a problem with.

It's not what I was talking about, but your whole "distancing" thing is very weak (It's basically "Yos voted PTA, then he later decided someone else was scummier then PTA and voted vote there instead, so Yos must be scum with PTA!").

I am curious about the other arguments you were trying to use in 154, because the REST of the arguments you were using to attack him seemed pretty illogical to me, and I would like you to explain them. Especally wher you attack him because he attacked Zaphod for not voting; "not voting" is generally a decent scumtell, and especally in a game like this where you should really be using your vote at all times.

Although apparently, rather then explain your attacks on PTA, or respond to my reasons for thinking Raging Wishbone looks scummier, you'd rather just attack anyone who dosn't blindly follow you. Nice.

I don't even understand your point about Zaphod not voting- I just looked back and they were voting the whole time and were actively commenting on the A&B wagon while it was going on. It's also funny that you comment on this while seemingly completely ignoring PokerFace's almost total and blatant ignoring of the situation in post 99. Apart from this, again, I ask, explain to you what was illogical about our attacks on PTA- I've asked you to clarify twice now and you totally ignore the question.

Eh? I've asked you several times now to explain your case against PTA in post 154, and you still haven't done so.

I have no problem with your post 149, since again I pointed that stuff out long before you did, and mentioned again the general lack of content in my analysis post. I just wanted you to explain exactally what you were talking about in your post 154, espeally the part about Zaphod or whatever, because I didn't understand where you were going with that, and I wanted to since PTA was on my suspect list.

By the way, it wasn't *My point* about "Zaphod not voting". That was some point you were trying to make that I don't at all understand in post 154, and I was trying to get you to explain it. Personally, I think Zaphod is probably town.

Ok, your first sentance is complete garbage. Me and Nuwen were talking as I was writing that post, she made the observations, and I agreed with them. Why should it matter to you if the thought origionally came from me or from Nuwen? Why are you making such a big deal out of irrelevent side issues here?

It seemed to me you wanted to have it both ways and were introducing Nuwen's supposed read as a way of segueing from supporting a PTA lynch to an RW lynch. I thought you yourself were disowning responsibility for the attack on RW- if you yourself are happy to support your hydra's attack on RW I would drop this point.

Of course I am. If I didn't agree with her thoughts, I certanly would have said so, and if we didn't agree on him being scummy I don't imagine we would be voting for him right now.

I even specifically went out of my way in that section to say that I agreed with her analysis of RW.

First, the one head put him at lynch -1 without giving him a chance to claim, right after that had been pointed out to be anti-town, since scum can insta-lynch anyone who is at lynch -1 in this game by just daykilling someone not on the wagon. At the very least, this demonstrates a carelessness that looks scummy.

Then, the other head saying "let's keep the SK alive so we can direct him" is even worse, in my opinion.

I said it was anti-town, and it was. Anti-town means "bad for the town". There is absolutly no reason a pro-town person should want to keep a SK alive, just in order to "direct the kill." Especally in a game when town can lynch multiple times a day anyway.

Lynching a SK day 1 is one of the best things that can possibly happen for the town; it extends the game, means less nightkills, more lynches. In general, nightkills give the town much less information then lynches do, so they hurt the town more then they hurt the mafia.

The problem is these two don't work in conjunction. You are attempting to have your cake and eat it too. You want to call him scummy for being "careless" by leaving an SK on L-1, but you also want to attack him for not wanting the SK killed.

The key thing you're missing here is, he was careless for putting him at lynch -1 *BEFORE HE HAD CLAIMED*.

At that point of the game, if RW was mafia, all he would know was that A&B was not mafia, and would therefore be perfectly happy to run him up, just like mafia tend to be happy with any easy townie-lynch. On the other hand, I do NOT think a pro-town person would put someone at lynch-1 before a claim like that; if A&B had, say, claimed Cop, the mafia could have just daykilled someone not on the bandwagon and A&B would have just died without someone else having to hammer him, since the # of votes needed to lynch would have dropped from 7 down to 6.

That would have been a HUGE risk for a pro-town person to take, especally since Shaft.ed pointed out that risk in post 90, and THEN RW voted him in post 92. So, yeah, I find that scummy.

His behavior after the claim, when it became obvious AB was almost certanly a SK, is scummy for an entierly different reason (that I explained above).

So, yes, in this case, I can "have my cake and eat it to". Both actions were scumtells, for completly different reasons.

Wait...really?

You were trying to argue that RW wanting to keep the SK alive was a *TOWN* tell?

Hahaha.

Man, you make this easy. I think we just found RW's scumbuddy here.

Fos:Ortohoops

Um...are you seriously claiming not to have understood the point we've just been contesting in the last serious of posts? And you think that's a justification for FoSing me at that????

Eh...honestly, I was getting a bit frustrated by this part of the post. Yeah, I did know you had already argued that point. I do actually think there's a very good chance that you're RW's scumbuddy here, but it's not primarally because of that.

Ok, now trying to bring emotion from the Alpha game, when I was scum, into the game here in order to manipluate the town. Scum tactic.

Um how exactly?

His entire post was him attacking me and voting for me, and the main reason he gave was all stuff that happened in the alpha game.

It's a scum manipulation trick to remind other people "Hey, remember how that guy was scum and we were town last time we played?" It's scummy because my alignment in a different game clearly has nothing to do with my alignment here, so it's worthless as a scumhunting trick, but it's an effective manipulation technique that's effective at getting people to look at someone else in a suspicious way.

Interesting; he's at lynch -2 now, and Ortohoops entire post was him attacking me because I didn't put him at lynch -1 now. So why are you attacking me here?

He is at four votes which is actually L-3.

Ah, ok, my mistake.

Although I think you're still just talking about the alpha game here, which again, is scummy.

???

It wouldn't be scummy if he was using it for meta reasons, trying to compare my playstyle from one game to another game to figure out my alignment or make a case against me. But he dosn't seem to be doing that; it sounded like what he was saying was "Hey, Yosarian was scum in Alpha, and Ortohops was town; let's all follow Ortohops and vote for Yosarian here!"

RW is obvscum here, and we need to lynch him now.

You sound

very

certain here.

(nods) Yeah. I mean, day 1 lynches are never really certain, but I already thought RW was the scummiest person in the game, and my confidence in RW being scum went WAY up after post 186.

Because RW is far scummier.

Tajo is kind of scummy; he's more likely to be scum then a random lynch. On the other hand, RW is incredibly obvscum, especally after that last post of theirs where they came up with a series of really illogical and contradictory excuses to OMGUS vote me (while specifically denying they were OMGUS voting, of course ) and tried to manipulate the town using the alpha game.

If we lynch tajo, I won't be unhappy, but I really want to lynch RW right now.

Your expressed reasons are, again, weak.

Do you really think my reasons for voting RW are weaker then the reasons for the Tajo wagon? How so?

Anyway, on an unrelated note, Nuwen has another observation she wants me to include in this post, so as to conserve posts and all that. (And yes, ortolan, I completly agree with her observation here as well; there's a good reason ZMD is on my scum list.)

"Feh, ZMD's most recent post is sparse and almost purely responsive. Everything about his post is watered down and galvanized only by questions. Even his case and vote are forced in order to refute ShaftedSex."

[Raging Wishbone]

I need to respond to a few posts but timing is of the essence on this one, since Yoso, is here ONLINE right now...please post your GOLLY 4 aim chats asap! Don't want to give you more time to try and fake them again.

Ok.

Vote:Raging Wishbone

, our biggest suspect after that (exausting) re-read and analysis. (Also, it actually took 4 AIM posts to send this whole thing to Nuwen for comment before I posted it, haha)

This is worth two posts.

[Yosariwen]

I need to respond to a few posts but timing is of the essence on this one, since Yoso, is here ONLINE right now...please post your GOLLY 4 aim chats asap! Don't want to give you more time to try and fake them again.

Ok.

Vote:Raging Wishbone

, our biggest suspect after that (exausting) re-read and analysis. (Also, it actually took 4 AIM posts to send this whole thing to Nuwen for comment before I posted it, haha)

This is worth two posts.

What, you didn't think I (Nuwen) was online too? I'm channeling Yos for a moment:

"First of all, I dislike that RW just wasted another post there just to say that, rather then a more full response.

I can't imagine our private chat is likely to be that helpful here, but it's ok. Just give me a few minutes to go through and remove any role speculation or related information from the chat logs."

Which Nuwen agrees with, should Orts ask. I also added in code tags around the posts Yos sent me via AIM to make the transcript less confusing. Redacted sections are indicated.

3:57:38 PM ArtherDent: On a side note, we're really going ot have to do something in that beta game. I find it so hard to get motived, though, because of the whole "posts are bad" thing...bah, same thing happened to me in Short and Sweet
3:58:00 PM Mercuriala: Yeah, I've been feeling the same dismotivation.
3:58:24 PM Mercuriala: Combined with allowing the game to fall by the wayside during Alpha's early stages.
3:58:38 PM ArtherDent: Yeah
3:59:00 PM ArtherDent: Still, lurking is still bad, if we don't post more content we're going to really get nailed for it.
3:59:15 PM Mercuriala: I'll do a strong reread after my shift is done for the day (2 minutes!) and we'll put our heads together sometime tonight/tomorrow?
3:59:18 PM Mercuriala: Oh, I agree
3:59:27 PM Mercuriala: And thanks for keeping alive in that game.
3:59:38 PM Mercuriala: It shifted to the black hole portion of my short term memory.
3:59:49 PM Mercuriala: Things that enter are rarely seen again.
4:00:09 PM ArtherDent: Heh...know what you mean
4:00:19 PM ArtherDent: And sure, sounds good
4:00:19 PM Mercuriala: resquiat in pace, Happy the Hamster.

8:17:58 PM ArtherDent: Hello
8:18:08 PM Mercuriala: Mao.
8:18:46 PM ArtherDent: Well, I was right, people are really starting to get worried about us lurking, in a bad way. Plus we just got prodded.
8:19:51 PM Mercuriala: I'm still reading. We can just be honest and explain that the game's post restriction does tend to create a buildup of post content that inevitably fades from the contemporary
8:20:00 PM Mercuriala: and just leads to disinterest/apathy in the game.
8:20:53 PM ArtherDent: Yeah
8:21:06 PM ArtherDent: This is what I have so far, I started writing it:
8:21:09 PM ArtherDent: Hello.

I'm sorry I haven't been posting. I (Yosarian) do not do well with this kind of mecahnic; the "posting without making progess hurts the town" thing really messes with my head, makes me want to make every single one of my posts *EPIC* and game-changing, and when I can't do that or don't feel up to making a super-mega-post, I tend to put it off. Same thing happened to me in the Short and Sweet mafia game, and posting hurt the town less in that game then it does here.
8:23:24 PM Mercuriala: I think a lot of people, especially those with town interests in mind, will sympathize. Some strong points about the game should dissolve most suspicion, I really doubt that game is going to humor an outright policy lynch on a lurker
8:24:10 PM ArtherDent: Ok, this is it now:
8:24:12 PM ArtherDent: Hello.

I'm sorry I haven't been posting. I (Yosarian) do not do well with this kind of mecahnic; the "posting without making progess hurts the town" thing really messes with my head, makes me want to make every single one of my posts *EPIC* and game-changing, and when I can't do that or don't feel up to making a super-mega-post, I tend to put it off. Same thing happened to me in the Short and Sweet mafia game, and posting hurt the town less in that game then it does here. Of course, lurking hurts the town as well, and probably hurts the town more; it's just really hard for me to post when I can't make a short pithy comment without wondering if it's worth doing in a cost/benifit analyis. (My intenet connection was down for about 24 hours on Wednesday, but that's not the main reason.)


8:24:44 PM ArtherDent: Ok. So now, relevent game analysis:
8:24:44 PM Mercuriala: Don't post just to make that excuse, however. How long will you be alive?
8:24:45 PM ArtherDent: Um
8:24:53 PM Mercuriala: ^
8:25:13 PM ArtherDent: (nods) Yeah, I was thinking we'd combine that and some other stuff into a single post, if we could
8:25:24 PM Mercuriala: I usually take notes on games and have too many leads to go on and very little focus, but this game has been rather sparse
8:27:09 PM ArtherDent: Anyway, I'm going to post SOMETHING tonight, no quesiton
8:27:33 PM ArtherDent: (I've never been replaced in any game I've been the entire time I've been on MS; this won't be the first one. )
8:28:01 PM Mercuriala: Heh, especially not with a hydra partner to (presumably) fall back on.
8:28:27 PM Mercuriala: Being dead in LAL helps, although typing with stitches is irritating.
8:28:54 PM Mercuriala: I wonder what the precedent is for dictated cases.
8:28:54 PM ArtherDent: Stiches? You ok?
8:29:07 PM Mercuriala: Yeah, I was just a ninny.
8:29:17 PM Mercuriala: I used a switchblade as a corkscrew.
8:29:20 PM Mercuriala: I got the cork!
8:29:24 PM Mercuriala: And some skin.
8:29:45 PM ArtherDent: Heh. Be careful; you know what happened to me this fall, right?
8:29:53 PM Mercuriala: I do not.
8:30:53 PM ArtherDent: Oh. I just gave myself a tiny little cut on my pinky finger, while washing dishes; on the inside of my finger between the hand and the lower joint. Such a small cut, it didn't even need stiches. Except I somehow managed to sever the tendon in my finger in the process.
8:31:42 PM Mercuriala: Heh, you must have bony fingers.
8:32:04 PM ArtherDent: Eh...not really. The hand specilist thought it was probably because my finger was curled at the time I did it
8:32:52 PM Mercuriala: Even then, it's strange that you hit tendon prior to slicing through fatty tissue (which would have required stitches).
8:33:01 PM ArtherDent: So, had to get surgery, get the tendon re-attached. Then was in a cast over my entire right hand and arm for 2 weeks, and then spent the next 5 months or so with a brace on my arm and going to physcial therepy 2 times a week
8:33:44 PM ArtherDent: Yeah, it was pretty strange, everyone agreed with that. The people in the hospital didn't even seem to believe me. (Question of the year: "Are you sure your finger worked before you cut yourself?")
8:34:10 PM Mercuriala: You sure learned your lesson, didn't you. Get a dishwasher like the rest of us environmentally unfriendly, fat, lazy Americans.
8:34:34 PM ArtherDent: Lol. Yeah, a dishwasher would be nice
8:36:01 PM Mercuriala: I'd also point out in your post that lurking is a bit ineffectual as a tell.
8:36:22 PM Mercuriala: Scum need to push to the next action phase, not assist in delaying it.
8:41:36 PM ArtherDent: Eh, I think people know that already, but we can say it if you want
8:41:46 PM ArtherDent: This is what I have so far:
8:41:49 PM ArtherDent: Hello.

I'm sorry I haven't been posting. I (Yosarian) do not do well with this kind of mecahnic; the "posting without making progess hurts the town" thing really messes with my head, makes me want to make every single one of my posts *EPIC* and game-changing, and when I can't do that or don't feel up to making a super-mega-post, I tend to put it off. Same thing happened to me in the Short and Sweet mafia game, and posting hurt the town less in that game then it does here. Of course, lurking hurts the town as well, and probably hurts the town more; it's just really hard for me to post when I can't make a short pithy comment without wondering if it's worth doing in a cost/benifit analyis. (My intenet connection was down for about 24 hours on Wednesday, but that's not the main reason.)

Plus, for some reason, I'm really having trouble finding stuff to talk about in this game. Still, I will do my utmost to post more, even if it means some posts with less content. I've never been replaced in any game I've ever played on mafiascum, for ANY reason, and I will NOT let this be the first one if I can do anything about it.

I was actually about to hammer A&B around the end of page 4; I thought he was scum for a lot of reasons, especally shaft.ed's "if they weren't scum, scum would have killed someone not on the wagon to lynch them" argument. (Which, actually, apparently wasn't true, which is interesing.) But then I decided to wait and give them one more chance to respond first; and I didn't want to spend a post just to SAY "I'm thinking about hammering you" like I would in a normal game.
Anyway, sex with shaft.ed's wife really seems pro-town to me here; I really get a good vibe from them.

On a side note, if we could get together a second lynch today (that is, before end of page 12), and basically try to get off about 2 lynches a day, I think it would work to our advanage. We also ideally want to make sure that person has a chance to claim before being hammered, though, so I think we want to a bandwagon going quickly here.

8:42:29 PM ArtherDent: (Also, for the reason I posted in the last paragraph, I think the correct pro-town move here is to vote for SOMEONE during this post, although I really have no idea who yet)
8:48:56 PM ArtherDent: Do you have thoughts about anyone in the game? Any analyis you have, basically anything you're thinking at this point, let me know and I'll add it onto the post
8:49:34 PM Mercuriala: I'm trying to write up something complementary and cohesive as well, sorry slow going.
8:49:45 PM ArtherDent: Ok, no problem
8:51:10 PM Mercuriala: Thus far, I think your post will be most critiqued for saying a nothing in a multitude of words - "I was going to do" or "I was about to do" is meaningless and can neither be proven nor corroborated, and it provides very little comment on what will be called "current" issues
8:51:36 PM Mercuriala: The only piece of alignment posture in there is your pro-town vibe from Shaft's wife.
8:51:41 PM ArtherDent: Yeah, i know.
8:52:12 PM ArtherDent: This game is hard, heh.
8:52:19 PM Mercuriala: It really is.
8:52:21 PM ArtherDent: Still, it was true.
8:52:29 PM Mercuriala: I'm thinking straight up wagon analysis will be the way to go.
8:52:32 PM ArtherDent: And I don't see any reason to not say it
8:52:41 PM Mercuriala: Oh, by all means
8:52:45 PM ArtherDent: Eh...but there's not much point in doing a traditional wagon analysis on a SK wagon
8:52:54 PM Mercuriala: We just have to follow it up with something worthwhile in the same post
8:52:58 PM ArtherDent: Agreed
8:52:59 PM Mercuriala: Yeah, that was a bit feh
8:53:14 PM ArtherDent: Oh, lynching a SK day 1 is AWESOME, probably the best thing the town can possibly do
8:53:30 PM Mercuriala: But pretty useless for the rest of the game
8:53:37 PM Mercuriala: I'm not complaining at all
8:53:41 PM ArtherDent: (shrug)
8:58:33 PM ArtherDent: Also, I keep forgetting who is who, which is annoying
8:58:57 PM ArtherDent: I think I'm going to include the whole list of who is in which hyrda from the queau thread into here, for easy reference
8:59:32 PM Mercuriala: God yes I hate that.
8:59:49 PM Mercuriala: I keep having to refer back to the original player list
8:59:55 PM ArtherDent: Yeah
9:01:54 PM ArtherDent: Trying to figure out who nyballosulgniirkps is now
9:05:07 PM Mercuriala: Ah, Kison+Springlullaby
9:05:13 PM ArtherDent: Yeah, found it
9:05:23 PM ArtherDent: Mods posted it in thread when they replaced in
9:05:31 PM ArtherDent: Thanks
9:05:35 PM Mercuriala: Yeah, I just hit that spot while rereading
9:17:40 PM Mercuriala: God, the only thing jutting out in the slightest is Wishbone's L-1 vote on A&B after half a page of players making the cautious decision NOT to put A&B at L-1 lest scum get a two for one.
9:17:53 PM Mercuriala: then walked home, drunk with my shirt off, drunk dialing people and heckling people on the street
9:17:55 PM Mercuriala: Er
9:17:59 PM ArtherDent: Hehe
9:18:01 PM Mercuriala: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 27#1653027
9:18:09 PM Mercuriala: Fritz said that
9:18:17 PM Mercuriala: Fucking clipboard.
9:18:18 PM ArtherDent: Ah, ok
9:18:27 PM ArtherDent: I was assuming it was you, that would have been funnier
9:18:42 PM Mercuriala: I'm classy.
9:18:45 PM Mercuriala: ::snerk::
9:18:50 PM ArtherDent:
9:19:46 PM Mercuriala: And then his hydra partner retracts the vote, with the hope of steering the kill
9:20:32 PM ArtherDent: Yuck
9:20:40 PM Mercuriala: "As long as you kill whoever we tell you" can translate into another scum maneuvered kill. In this setup especially, a living vig is more likely to push the town into a lylo situation
9:28:47 PM Mercuriala: I think Frog Dodging's supposed posthumous post was also genuine and cautionary from a pro-town perspective; it contained a relatively low amount of scum death WIFOM that crops up. My whimsical gut says dying townie.
9:29:16 PM Mercuriala: I'm actually reading backwards in time now, sorry I'm so slow going.
9:29:43 PM ArtherDent: By the way, if raging wishbone is scum the part where he calls pesco-light "pesco town" could be a nifty scum slip.
9:30:14 PM Mercuriala: I'm really hesitant to call Raging Wishbone's fluff scummy
9:30:46 PM Mercuriala: I realize I'm applying an uneven standard, but I've always perceived him as a bit of a duffer.
9:32:10 PM ArtherDent: Eh
9:32:28 PM ArtherDent: I really do call that post scummy, though, where he wanted us to keep the SK alive to "direct his kill"
9:32:36 PM Mercuriala: Definitely
9:32:43 PM Mercuriala: Especially after the vote, unvote, and then hammer.
9:32:48 PM ArtherDent: (I'm currently trying to make a list of all the players and put them into "town, leaning town, neutral, scummy" type catagories
9:33:33 PM Mercuriala: (I gave up writing coherently in favor of keeping my stitches intact, I'll just feed you observations to relay)
9:33:57 PM ArtherDent: Ok
9:34:32 PM Mercuriala: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 13#1660013
9:34:57 PM Mercuriala: Here's where the interaction gets fluffy (especially when he gets Adel to respond and take up a game post).
9:35:22 PM Mercuriala: That post contains another absa-stance too. "DGB/Plum get a free pass."
9:36:39 PM ArtherDent: Ok
9:37:01 PM Mercuriala: Just more pieces that hinge on RR's alignment.
9:37:22 PM ArtherDent: brb
9:39:09 PM Mercuriala: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 77#1664377
9:40:02 PM Mercuriala: PTA defends that scummy point against RW here, by the way - calls vig direction a null tell under the assumption that Raging Wishbone didn't understand the mechanics of the game make a vig role immaterial
9:40:37 PM Mercuriala: "what he said has both town and scum motivations. Except in this game. But he didn't realize that, really. Null tell."
9:42:43 PM ArtherDent: Ok; possible link to ragin wishbone
9:47:40 PM ArtherDent: I'm probably going to be going to bed soon, tired. Let me see if I can finish this...
9:47:55 PM Mercuriala: Understandable.
9:48:10 PM Mercuriala: I can keep collecting ideas to pool tomorrow or over the weekend.
9:49:15 PM ArtherDent: The one thing about Poke the Alpaca, while I see scum tells, the wagon dosn't really feel right to me
9:49:24 PM ArtherDent: It's too easy. No one seems to disagree with it at all
9:49:32 PM Mercuriala: Tajo is a very opportunistic wagon target.
9:49:57 PM Mercuriala: And the intrahydra disagreements do not help his case in the slightest.
9:50:53 PM ArtherDent: (shrug)
9:50:59 PM Mercuriala: I don't think the wagon is solely scum-directed, if that's what you mean - I'm assuming at least one scum member is choosing to remain quiet about Tajo. It's difficult who is simply laying low and who is making a case on a competing wagon, however, because of the inactivity
9:51:02 PM Mercuriala: but yeah
9:51:08 PM Mercuriala: I get what you're feeling
9:52:32 PM ArtherDent: I wouldn't say scum directed
9:52:39 PM ArtherDent: But it feels...scum supported, or at least not scum opposed
9:54:33 PM Mercuriala: I want more people to comment on the wagon.
9:55:34 PM Mercuriala: Easier to splice off-voters who don't support the wagon or off-voters who are just playing catchup
9:55:56 PM Mercuriala: But yes, the fact that there are no competing wagons is alarming.
9:56:09 PM Mercuriala: But could be blamed partially on inactivity
9:57:43 PM ArtherDent: Ok...I've commented on almost everyone now,
9:57:47 PM ArtherDent: Any thoughts on j-scope?
9:58:00 PM Mercuriala: Not that stand out
9:58:14 PM Mercuriala: god it's so annoying to try and read a player in isolation.
9:58:27 PM ArtherDent: Ok
10:02:29 PM ArtherDent: Wow, this is a monster post. Ok, here it is, right before i post it
10:02:39 PM ArtherDent: Lol...it's too long to post in AIM
10:03:27 PM ArtherDent: Ok, let me just give you the part you didn't see yet
10:03:33 PM Mercuriala: Hah, all right
10:03:39 PM ArtherDent: And it's still too long. :haha:
10:03:52 PM Mercuriala: PM it, hah
10:04:05 PM ArtherDent: Ok, part 1:
10:04:20 PM ArtherDent:

***CODE TAGS ADDED FOR POSTING PURPOSES*** -Nuwen

Code: Select all

[quote="J-Scope"]
From the mod's twilight post I took it that Frog wasn't going to die. It's possible there was a protection or a block. 
[/quote] 
  
Could be; in fact, almost certanly is true at this point, considering the time that's passed.  Or else the SK might not have been telling the truth about having submitted the kill yet.   
  
I wish ZMD didn't make the "prodded will post soon" post number 148.   That's still anti-town, and probably scummy as well since scum would like to get us to drift past 12 pages without a lynch. 
  
I'm not really getting Ortohoop's case against poke the alpaca in post 154; could you explain that again in your next post, please?   
  
I'm having trouble remember who is who, which makes meta especally hard, and it gets even worse when people post in their origional accounts and I can't remember who goes with what hydra.  If you do a game like this again, Adel, it might help if you put that info in the first post.  Let me post the list here, from the queau thread,for reference: 
  
 
10:04:23 PM ArtherDent:  *1. Zaphod Beeblebrox (DGB+Plum) 
2. Apples and Banana (SensFan+xofelf) 
*3. Zmd (ZazieR+Kmd4390) 
*4. Trotsky (Korts+roflcopter) 
*5. [s]Death the Hogfather (Kairyuu+Seraphim)[/s] Ojando (Ojanen+ Sando0
*6. Incamnito (Incognito+camn) 
*7. Yosariwen (Yosarian2+Nuwen) 
*8. Ortohoops (ortolan+Hoopla) 
*9. sex w/ shafteds wife club (elvis_knits+shaft.ed) 
*10. PoketheAlpaca (PokerFace+populartajo) 
*11. [s]Pesco-Light (forbiddanlight+Pesco)[/s] nyballosulgniirkps (Kison+springlullaby)
*12. Raging Wishbone (Raging Rabbit+WaltWishbone) 
*13. J-Scope (Jahudo+KaleiÃ

[Raging Wishbone]

Once again; just to reiterate, the above post and the willingness and need for self-adulation of Yoso on behalf of his partner reek of scum trying to find a way to jusitfy their "existence in the world"... The reason I write that is not because of a sure scum read but more so because of the defensive nature of the post. The fact and addition of needing to prove themselves by claiming they have 4 AIM chats that will "knock are socks off" seems completely scummy.... Yosairen is online right now, I felt it was prudent and necessery for him to copy and pastes these AIM chats for our edifictation as soon as possible, so I did two posts... If only to clear he and his partners good name.



I mean it only took me seven minutes to do that it should take him no more that 7 minutes to reply with aim chats right?

The main reason I claim PokaTajo is town is because of this post, I went through and read all of his links and he makes a good case (So on one hand Poker makes a damn good Lawyer and could have defended OJ 'j/k", on the other he does come across as being honest.... at this point I think his post makes complete sense and that is why I think he is town!

Sorry for the wall of text but then I'm sure you didn't want me to post more than once. Saunt Adelaus probably deserves a mod kill warning for posts 169 through 171

My reaction to RagingWishbone's unvote was the same as Ortohoops' - the reason is that town would be more likely to consider the possible benefits of that claim being legit, and utilizing the kill of the vigilante without realizing that they already possess the potential to make up for it themselves with their limitless lynches. While it's only in the benefit of the SK to kill town, both serial killers and vigilantes *want* to kill scum. The more likely to give off the knee-jerk reaction of unvoting would be town.

Respectfully disagree. Cross-kills (or additional, town-directed kills) = another way for scum to die. By eliminating another killing group scum substantially lower their probability of dying. This is also with the hindsight he actually was an SK- he still could have been a vig at that time. Are you actually suggesting scum are happy to leave potential vigs alive? It's not a sure town-tell but it's a strong one in this case.

In this game:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8926
I PF was scum. And everybody (Town and Scum) tried to use DGB (Who was a very powerful Vig) to kill other players since you were allowed 2 day kills a day and or only 1 lynch. Not even for a second did my scum group think of killing DGB. We thought of ways to use here to kill others for us the entire time. We even planned to lynch her later because her kills of town made her look like scum because she killed sometimes without anybody asking her too. She could have gone after us at any moment, thought we were scum and shot us to pieces. But she didn't. We figured she wouldn't and we were right. In my experience Town and scum have equal reasons to keep any and all other killing roles alive. As long as a player is a use to you there is no reason to kill them. Our scum group in that game even had the power to day kill without DGB to some extent. We didn't need her, she could have killed us, but we kept her alive because she was useful. If someone is useful to you and your side, then there is no reason to get rid of them no matter what side you are on. And I can see ways an extra kill could benefit either side.

But, I am aware that some of what "we" have posted in this game may be construed as fluff, which was why I was willing to forgive it from the other hydras, in the early game, up to a point. However PTA's constant diatribes about "fluff posting" become beyond hypocritical when they make not one but two

completely

useless posts on page 2, followed by a scummy PBPA. Of course then comes the unprompted unvote, and now a contrived OMGUS.

The above should also serve as a comprehensive reply to J-Scope as far as I'm aware.

...
Your case on Zaphod, quite frankly, sucks.

It seems to be based on the idea that not voting scum = scum.

Huh?^ Where you getting that part from?

However we know this is not the case when A&B is a flipped SK. It also contains an extremely vague and unsubstantiated assertion about their overall playing style (bolded), and another (hypocritical) reference to "time/post" wasting.

Vote: PokeTheAlpaca

OMGUS is voting you just because you are voting me. We both gave reasons as to why we are voting each other. If no reason was given then it would be OMGUS. I gave a reason. The way you word it suggests that any time too players vote each other it is OMGUS. To prove that I was OMGUS you must prove my reasons were BS and I was voting you out of spite. Instead you said I was right about the way that first post could be fluff. So how was I BSing? I wasn't

Check the time stamp and words of these posts from our game
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 63#1642063
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 08#1645208
and compare them to these posts from the alpha game
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 65#1642065
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 06#1645206
Tajo was clearly under the wrong impression that these games were the same. He has to treat and learn from both of them and he should now have learned from these mistakes with recent postings not being of the same manner.

And what I explained was the feel I get from the postings. Call it gut if you want but DGB is not someone who strays away from a challenge or easily follows a group. Her running scared is like bigfoot. You are shocked to see it. And that was the impression I was getting. Plums post on A&B didn't seem to add anything in my point of view. I've played in games where people have used simular posts to camaflauge or try to look like everybody else. It would have been better if she analyze the wagon from a finished perspective not a growing one. That way she could find scum NOW. See if someone had bad reasoning while voting A&B and would be more likly scum. That would have been providing something new and helpful to the game not more of the same A&B is scummy. Thinking A&B was scummy was only useful when A&B was alive.

These comments here should also answer what J-scope asked here:

Saying you find A&B scummy now does absolutly nothing. Its just a pathetic attempt to look like everybody else.

I agree that it does nothing to help them or the relevant discussion but I don't think it's a scumtell. The whole post looks like a big stream of consciousness to catch up to the present, like the catchup post of someone who replaced in.

They have agreedwith others/wagon jumped at times convienant to when others have been pressuring them.

Why don’t you think DGB would do this as town? I think she’s normally a free voter. The first six posts were a little extreme; some had a joking attitude or the intention of prodding a lurker, but none looked like they were trying to hide the fact that they were jumping on a person. I think it’s probably just a personality of the players, not the alignment.

_________________

This was part of what I was getting at in my suspicions of PoketheAlpaca. Asked for content, gives not really. I also dislike their attack on Ortohoops, to some degree, anyway. I explained why their vote on A&B was

not

hypocritical.

I don't get this either. Part of the case being expressed on A&B is their posting wasn't really adding much to the game. Saying Scum wouldn't do it because they'd get attacked for being scummy is stupid. Scum are more likly to be scummy. If scum were never scummy, how would we catch them? You sound like you want to attack those that conserve posts and you don't certainly seem to be doing or voting for that. Like you're being a hypocrite.

And I did not bye your explanation. They should be explaining why, not you. Its their vote not yours.

No, Ortohoops seems to want to attack those who immediately jump on those not being extremely conservative with posts.

If that was the case they would have voted themselves for voting me by now

If DGB is frustrated and/or wants to quit the site, that's her business. I would feel comfortable winning as scum so long as I didn't use that post of hers as some sort of excuse or explanation for why I couldn't be scum, and I played the game for my hydra and alignment as best I could. It would be stupid of you to try to use that to

confirm

me town anyway. That's hypothetical and irrelevent, though, because I don't happen to be scum.

I never said I would use it for that. I said the only purpose it seems to fufill is showing you agreeing with everybody that A&B is scum. And that sort of thing poses no use to getting new scum. Only thing it could be would be a pathetic attempt to make you look like everybody else. That was the feel I got from it. if you'll look at what I said earlier you'd see that what town should have done was try to analyze the wagon and see if vote X was bad reasoned and made player X scum

...

I told you that I had been busy and had let DGB fill most of our collective duties here, and I apologized for not being about too much. I felt I wed it to the game to do a complete, thorough reread, and saw no reason not to offer it up to everyone. I had to really get into this game and this was the best way I saw to do it. I do realize that not everything in my last post was still entirely relevent, but I think that it was a decent option, overall. If you can explain why it was more likely that I'm scum trying to look town than town/anyone trying to really catch up in the game and be open about all my thoughts on what's happened . . . I don't see a compelling reason for you to not be treating it as a nulltell.

...
You felt the need to make this point and yet you yourself didn't have a suspect to put your vote on at least semi-seriously. At least DGB was poking the lurkers; I'd say there's some value in that.

Vote: PoketheAlpaca

More later; am being kicked off the computer.

I move my vote when I find scum or think someone isn't. That's the way I've always done it. If I think Korlash isn't scum and don't have a new suspect

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 05#1177205

I don't revote. My vote serves a purpose while a random vote at that point served absolutly no purpose. She could have commented on the game that had started but instead she went straight back to the random stage.

Also, why is Orto a better choice than Zaphod, PtA?

I never said one was better than the other. What I said back there was Let's lynch them both.

We are willing to lynch both Zaphod and ortohoops. Willing to run them up asap.

My response to this
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 95#1669295
I wasn't attacking ortohoops for lack of content but attacking them primarily for their logic.

They said our wagon was oportunistic and that scum wouldn't post fluff; they helped lynch A&B with that attitude. They said my wagon was originally oportunistic and scum would avoid fluff; now they are on our wagon and say scum would do fluff. They said we fluff posted; Hoops did some too.

Basically they are going back on some key points of their logic as well as commiting things they once deemed wrong. I see that as hypocracy.

Vote: Ortohoops

I think that's a bit of a stretch.

Zaphod stated in their post prior to voting that they would be doing so if Apples and Banana's claim was 'unsatisfactory'.

Additionally, Trotsky/Raging Wishbone never pressured them into voting A&B but voted for a lack of erratic behavior from DGB.

Ok I must have the underlined part of that.
Trotsky and RW went after zaphod here and here
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 07#1655207
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 17#1660917
The very next post after each of those is a vote by Zaphod. Call it IRC habbit if you want but I related her moving then to something tthat had just happen thinking their votes could have influenced DGB's response. Still I think I'll re-read zaphod later with the underlined in mind.

I dislike implying credit for discussion by doing something questionable.
Also not quite seeing how the RVS questions from ortohoops to incamn and PtA to Yosariwen actually were meant to advance the game - they seem like questions for the sake of appearing to ask questions (also Yos never answered and PtA didn't seem to care)

Up until the alpha game played out, i had a good meta on Yosarian. EVERY game where I had seen him random vote he was town. EVERY game where he hadn't he was scum. He random voted in Alpha and I thought he could be town there and scum here. He was scum in alpha so I'm wondering if the town tell falling out there effects his non-random vote-age here. Haven't figured it out yet so that's why I have not really followed on it and been more so waiting for Yos's acknowledgement of those questions. If anybody wants to see a list of what game I had used to make that meta they can. The Alpha game was the first I ever saw to disprove the town tell I got on Yos and nothing yet has gone against the scum one.

Edit while previewing:

I read the thread and write a post and start getting ready for work and ortohoops posts. I'll read their last post later. Ain't got the time to right now

@Raging Wishbone

This ain't the Alpha game, I know Tajo will flip town and it ain't cause I am scum! But than again he aint getting lynched today I hope!

This is the second time you say strongly that you find PTA town, I wish you would just get on and give your reasons for thinking so already.
You call Ortohoops' case on Yos brilliant, but at the same time that case relied mostly on the suspicion that PTA is scum. Contradiction?

I thought Poker's post was extremely articulate, reasoned well...and if you clicked on every link he pointed out, well then you have done as much homework as me... If you ain't then don't talk to me! j/k, lol

meh but dont worry I defended yo/nuwen this much in Alpha and turned on them first mistake they made and we ALL nailed them. I promise if I make a mistake I will be the first to admit it but for now tajo/poker = fail lynch!.

@Yo/Nuwen - umm, there is no wagon on me Genius, it is you and yours and yours against us alone! Remember we dont vote in this game who we dont like, we vote for who is scum.

I'm actually not liking either of the last two posts very much.

Ortohoops post 39

It's almost kind of ironic that my non-game related post has sparked more game related discussion than almost all the random votes.

I dislike implying credit for discussion by doing something questionable.

You haven't actually explained why her action was "questionable", you just seem to be bandwagoning with a whole bunch of other people who have attacked her "suggestions for approaching the game" style posting.

I will address this point here though, it's been brought up by many people and I've no doubt it's a genuine attitude that you can't rule out Hoops simply having tried to get through the game by making "suggestions to approaching the game" type posts while neglecting any actual scumhunting. I would bring up the counterpoint that she did exactly the same thing in Alpha, where you now know we were town, and where I think it had pro-town consequences. Additionally, I have come at things from a totally different tangent. Thus I think one of the main reasons we've been criticised for it is simply due the limited-posting-based nature of the game.

Also not quite seeing how the RVS questions from ortohoops to incamn and PtA to Yosariwen actually were meant to advance the game - they seem like questions for the sake of appearing to ask questions (also Yos never answered and PtA didn't seem to care)

What is the point here? What have you concluded from the fact they didn't bother to answer our questions?

Ortohoops 154 - ortolan is defending Hoopla's fluff with fluff.

You're bringing a startling lack of substance to the allegations against us. Once you label an original post as "fluff", that obligates us to respond do it, yet all you can say about the response is "oh that's fluff" again. You fail to go into any detail why. I've offered an explanation for why she might have posted what she did, I've agreed it might have been a bit sloppy, and additionally made the point that in the scheme of useless posting in this game we are probably in the bottom half of players anyhow. You haven't told me why my defence was fluff, and seem to want to draw us into a vicious circle whereby any defence of our previously labeled "fluff posting" is again labeled as "fluff posting"

The vote on PTA is appreciated, but your meritless attacks on us give me pause.

Yoswen's post is far scummier though.

I was actually about to hammer A&B around the end of page 4; I thought he was scum for a lot of reasons, especally shaft.ed's "if they weren't scum, scum would have killed someone not on the wagon to lynch them" argument. (Which, actually, apparently wasn't true, which is interesing.) But then I decided to wait and give them one more chance to respond first; and I didn't want to spend a post just to SAY "I'm thinking about hammering you" like I would in a normal game.

I don't understand what the point of telling us this was, unless you're trying to get after-the-fact townpoints by saying you were willing to let a claimed SK/vig live.

The following is very, very, very scummy:

On a side note, if we could get together a second lynch today (that is, before end of page 12), and basically try to get off about 2 lynches a day, I think it would work to our advanage; 2 lynches/day would give us a favorable town kill/scum kill ratio without totally shutting down town night actions, if we can manage it while not being stupid . We also ideally want to make sure that person has a chance to claim before being hammered, though, so I think we want to a bandwagon going quickly here. (Also, for this reason, I think the pro-town thing to do here is for us to vote for someone during this post, rather then posting and not using our vote, and I will, although as of this point I honestly haven't decided who yet.)

Basically, you want to lynch twice within the next four pages, and "want to get a bandwagon going quickly here." In your leaning scum list, you have both Raging Wishbone, and PokeTheAlpaca. PokeTheAlpaca's wagon had four votes on it, Raging Wishbone's had zero. I cannot understand how you can simultaneously want as many lynches as quickly as possible, and blatantly be trying to start a new wagon. This very, very much increases the probability of you being scum with PTA.

You also then blatantly equivocate between your contrary desires:

However, the ease of the wagon on PoketheAlpaca seems off to me; it seems too easy, no one seems to disagree with it at all. I can't quite explain it; I see scumtells and they look scummy on their own, but the wagon feels like it might be scum supported to me, or at least not scum opposed, if that makes sense; no one is arguing against this wagon, or trying to start a competing wagon, and that feels like a bad sign to me. Nuwen says she would like to see more people comment on this wagon.

So...now you want as many comments as possible on the wagon, prolonging the time it will take to lynch which you said just before you wanted to shorten? Your defence also makes no sense: "he's acting scummy but...I don't think he's scum".

Another point:

I'm not really getting Ortohoop's case against poke the alpaca in post 154; could you explain that again in your next post, please?

I find it hard to believe you could be so unconvinced by our case on PTA in 154 (you never actually say what you have wrong with it), yet independently also come to the conclusion that they are scummy (while not voting them).

*12. Raging Wishbone (Raging Rabbit+WaltWishbone): This one is mostly Nuwen's read; she dislikes the way that they put A&B at lynch -1 right after it was pointed out that putting someone at lynch -1 is dangerous, and also the way the other head then unvoted in order to try and use the kill. I agree; the post where Raging Wishbone unvotes and tries to get us to keep A&B alive so we can "direct their kill" is really anti-town to me, especally since town can lynch multiple times a day anyway. Nuwen also thinks their post 131 looks kind of "fluffy", in a scummy kind of way. (Funny side note: once slipped and called Pesco-Light "Pesco-Town". I have no idea if that means anything, but seems worth mentioning while I'm thinking abut it.)

Really don't like the misdirection in deferring the read to "mostly being Nuwen's" here. You also totally fail to explain what motivation a mafia player could have for wanting an extra town-directed kill in play. Your case is very, very weak; another reason you distracting from the PTA wagon is scummy.

*10. PoketheAlpaca (PokerFace+populartajo) : Along with the other things that have been pointed out, possible link to Raging Wishbone, in this post where he defends Raging wishbone.

We disagree with your opinion here. Both town and scum could want to keep a claimed Vig alive. That way the "vig" would kill people for them
* Scum would want "Vig" to wipe out town. Direct the "vig" to kill other townies
* Town would want "Vig" to kill scum
It is a null tell. If RW is town they clearly did not realize Town has infinite lynches and wouldn't need to direct the vig.

You've actually entirely misinterpreting this, because PTA was

not

defending RW

at all

, but actually trying to argue against our point that RW wanting to keep the SK/vig alive was a town-tell. This also shows how little sense your stance on RW/PTA makes, because you speculate about a connection between both RW and PTA, while deliberately neglecting one wagon in favour of starting another.

I think Yoswen is scum with PTA and is trying both to derail his wagon and tie RW to him if he gets lynched regardless and flips scum.

Debating the entire sk/vig convo, wether it was a RIGHT call or wrong call is mute in my humble opinion. We NAILED an SK, it was the right call yeah?

Me and RR did the same thing on the yo/nuw lynch and went back and forth on what we should do and made a good vote! I will not FUCKING be crucified in this game the same way I was in the Alpha game for making a good choice on lynching scum!

In this game:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8926
I PF was scum. And everybody (Town and Scum) tried to use DGB (Who was a very powerful Vig) to kill other players since you were allowed 2 day kills a day and or only 1 lynch. Not even for a second did my scum group think of killing DGB. etc. etc.

This is pretty much a point made with a sample size of one in a game with different circumstances. In this game the vidge/SK gets to make a new kill every action phase in a smallish game. Additionally not knowing whether they are town or self-aligned makes their actions unpredictable to other scum-players. Scum players would also potentially be scared of town reaching consensus on who the vidge/SK should kill and targetting them or their scumbuddies. Finally I see him as, if he was scum, wanting to not have to waste his kill on him that action phase (surely he'd prefer to get him lynched and choose a different target). As I said it's not an overwhelming town tell but I still view it as a town tell nonetheless.

They said our wagon was oportunistic and that scum wouldn't post fluff; they helped lynch A&B with that attitude. They said my wagon was originally oportunistic and scum would avoid fluff; now they are on our wagon and say scum would do fluff. They said we fluff posted; Hoops did some too.

Basically they are going back on some key points of their logic as well as commiting things they once deemed wrong. I see that as hypocracy.

This summarises the main two points we are being attacked for this game: the first is supposedly "fluff posting" while attacking others for fluff posting. Now I acknowledge that some of what Hoops posted was sloppy, especially when she then wanted to attack other people for wasting posts. However, in the scheme of things, none of our posts have been as wasteful as for example PTA's or Zmd's or Death The Hogfather's or Korts' or J-Scope's or Zaphod Beeblebrox's; all of whom have made at least one post

entirely

devoid of game or meta related content from my brief check of the last few pages.

The other point is that "our" read on PTA differed between different points in the game. As should have been obvious from for example, the difference in purple and black text, that was two different people reading. Hoops made the first post without consulting me, and while I was doing Alpha I kind of expected her to post here but she had to move countries so when we got prodded I took it upon myself to make the post and could not ignore PTA's blatant scumminess- I could not consult her at the time and still haven't had a proper opportunity to talk to her about this game. Nevertheless, I very much disagree with PTA's wagon being "opportunistic". So, PTA, with my rebuttal to these two points in mind, I would urge you to very strongly reconsider your view you are not OMGUSing us, as neither of your points have merit imo (your case against us in light of these points is even weaker which leads me to wonder how much scumhunting rather than OMGUSing scum-style you're actually trying to do).

i agree with pokethealpaca on zaphod trying hard to look pro-town with her post-lynch a+b analysis. her defense hinges on people actually caring whether she found the already lynched sk scummy. all in all it looks like padding for her post.

vote zaphod

Weeeeeak vote.

the vig claim would obviously be stupid as mafia, it was from zaphod's initial ignorance of the a+b wagon that we suspected her, and the sudden switch and hard push on it implied hard bussing--which we would expect dgbscum to do in such a case.

Except they're not scum with A&B?

the pta vs. ortohoops argument is pretty hypocritical of both re the fluffposting. both are reasonable wagons. we'll have to review them more seriously to have a solid opinion.

Um, you've made at least two entirely useless posts in this game (see your subsequent post, 184, as well as 174). This puts you on far, far worse footing than us, however hypocritical you want to be; sorry about that. Consider a self-vote though.

Seriously? I spent 2 hours last night doing a hyper-detailed analysis of everything in the entiere game and every single person in the game, probably the longest and most meticulasly reserached scumhunting post I've done in any game all year, and that's your response? I find that kind of strange, honestly.

WIFOM? This being valid hinges on you actually being town.

Basically, you want to lynch twice within the next four pages, and "want to get a bandwagon going quickly here."

Yes, I would like to. Of course, lynching scum is more important then lynching quickly. Also, 4 pages is 100 posts; that should be pleanty of time to lynch someone (unless people keep wasting posts like Korts just did there).

I cannot understand how you can simultaneously want as many lynches as quickly as possible, and blatantly be trying to start a new wagon.

Because I want to lynch scum, and for reasons i explained, Raging Wishbone looks scummer to both me and to Nuwen then PTA does.

Remember, I *STARTED* the poke the alpaca wagon. I understand why he looks suspicious, and I continued to point out scumtells in the post I just made. However, if he was scum, I would kind of expect the wagon to not feel quite so easy and unopposed. In fact, the only person who was opposed to the PTA wagon so far was...you, who said at the time:

At the moment, the PokeTheAlpaca wagon looks very opportunistic.

The point I am making is that calling for faster lynches then avoiding a healthy wagon on your "second" largest suspect in favour of your supposed first is disingenuous. And how can you prove your earlier vote on PTA wasn't simple distancing??? Your point about the "easy and unopposed wagon" I also do not like- that is an extremely subjective notion and you could potentially make that argument of pretty much any bandwagon in the game. Plus you've seen people's subsequent reticence in joining the PTA wagon anyhow. I also note you rely on the implied hypocrisy of our apparent "shift in opinions" here.

People are posting and not commenting on the wagon at all, which I don't like. Are you really suggesting that it's scummy for me to want people to comment on a wagon before we lynch someone? How the hell do you expect to find scum if you want to just lynch people without any discussion about them? In fact, if you really are a pro-town person who really do think PTA is scum; if you really did think he was scum, you should be DEMANDING that EVERYONE post comments about him before the lynch, because that would help us find scum partners later. I can't understand why any pro-town person would be opposed to people commenting on the PTA lynch before it happens; you need to explain this to me.

Where did I say I didn't want people commenting on his wagon? All I have said is that your position of both wanting more lynches while starting fresh new bandwagons and neglecting those of people you admit to find scummy is inconsistent.

The fact that no one is trying to do that either means the other scum are willing to just bus PTA, or else that the wagon is a bad one; the feel *OF THE BANDWAGON* on PTA is making me kind of nervous.

If PTA's buddies

were

busing him it still would be a fantastic wagon. I don't see how a *feel* can simultaneously make you think someone is being bused; or they are town and not being bused- surely those two circumstances would have unique and distinct tells?

If we get close to the (admittadly arbitraty) page 12 "deadline" I set, I might be willing to jump to the PTA wagon to secure a lynch before then. But there's absoltuy no reason to rush things; we've still got 4 pages left, and he's already at lynch -2, we have lots of time to explore other options, especally since he just looks scummier then PTA.

Wait didn't you say you wanted

two

lynches an action phase? Why would you switch wagons at an arbitrary point in day 12 anyway (apart from it being just before a new action phase)?

That was the argument I used to start the PTA wagon in the first place. So don't act like you "don't understand why I find them scummy" when YOU are trying to ride MY coattails to attack them, ok?

How does observing apparently the same things as you constitute "riding your coattails"? Why is it not plausible that you attempted to distance from PTA and are now trying to undermine his wagon having seen it go too far?

I am curious about the other arguments you were trying to use in 154, because the REST of the arguments you were using to attack him seemed pretty illogical to me, and I would like you to explain them. Especally wher you attack him because he attacked Zaphod for not voting; "not voting" is generally a decent scumtell, and especally in a game like this where you should really be using your vote at all times.

Although apparently, rather then explain your attacks on PTA, or respond to my reasons for thinking Raging Wishbone looks scummier, you'd rather just attack anyone who dosn't blindly follow you. Nice.

I don't even understand your point about Zaphod not voting- I just looked back and they were voting the whole time and were actively commenting on the A&B wagon while it was going on. It's also funny that you comment on this while seemingly completely ignoring PokerFace's almost total and blatant ignoring of the situation in post 99. Apart from this, again, I ask, explain to you what was illogical about our attacks on PTA- I've asked you to clarify twice now and you totally ignore the question.

Ok, your first sentance is complete garbage. Me and Nuwen were talking as I was writing that post, she made the observations, and I agreed with them. Why should it matter to you if the thought origionally came from me or from Nuwen? Why are you making such a big deal out of irrelevent side issues here?

It seemed to me you wanted to have it both ways and were introducing Nuwen's supposed read as a way of segueing from supporting a PTA lynch to an RW lynch. I thought you yourself were disowning responsibility for the attack on RW- if you yourself are happy to support your hydra's attack on RW I would drop this point.

First, the one head put him at lynch -1 without giving him a chance to claim, right after that had been pointed out to be anti-town, since scum can insta-lynch anyone who is at lynch -1 in this game by just daykilling someone not on the wagon. At the very least, this demonstrates a carelessness that looks scummy.

Then, the other head saying "let's keep the SK alive so we can direct him" is even worse, in my opinion.

I said it was anti-town, and it was. Anti-town means "bad for the town". There is absolutly no reason a pro-town person should want to keep a SK alive, just in order to "direct the kill." Especally in a game when town can lynch multiple times a day anyway.

Lynching a SK day 1 is one of the best things that can possibly happen for the town; it extends the game, means less nightkills, more lynches. In general, nightkills give the town much less information then lynches do, so they hurt the town more then they hurt the mafia.

The problem is these two don't work in conjunction. You are attempting to have your cake and eat it too. You want to call him scummy for being "careless" by leaving an SK on L-1, but you also want to attack him for not wanting the SK killed.

Wait...really?

You were trying to argue that RW wanting to keep the SK alive was a *TOWN* tell?

Hahaha.

Man, you make this easy. I think we just found RW's scumbuddy here.

Fos:Ortohoops

Um...are you seriously claiming not to have understood the point we've just been contesting in the last serious of posts? And you think that's a justification for FoSing me at that????

@Othohoops - great gane in Alpha, I am sorry I was pressured on time and did not know if RR would have a chance to check the thread before I returned today... He called JScope scum in daytalk and I screwed it up by not voting with ya! *gah* I almost quit tooo!, lol

Posting these notes here because Adel locked the Alpha thread and I owe Hoops, Raging Rabbit an apology for botching that game, I also owe Jscope sincere props and Kudos...also thanks to Adel for setting these games up...

*pinches Santa Claus ass*

No hard feelings, friend.

This ain't the Alpha game, I know Tajo will flip town and it ain't cause I am scum! But than again he aint getting lynched today I hope!

I am kind of curious about this- we seem to agree that Yosarian is suspicious but in my mind that's largely because of the way he's detracting from the PTA wagon, while you're assuring us he's obv-town.

See the bolded part from the quote. I wouldn't have thought that needed clarification in this game. Post wasting is inherently bad, since it was on first page I labeled it questionable instead of a stronger word.

I would like to see you attack the large number of people who are even more guilty of it than us even harder then please.

That did come out more in a self-note mode.
We were referring to the "the other half did it" defence. Your heads seem to have very different take on things and that could be a convenient way to contradict yourself without having to take responsability. That being said, at the moment we are much more interested in pursuing PtA whose heads contradict timewise simultaneously in their attack and defence.

Believe me if I was scum I would try far harder to ensure our opinions supposedly appeared "united".

This is the second time you say strongly that you find PTA town, I wish you would just get on and give your reasons for thinking so already.
You call Ortohoops' case on Yos brilliant, but at the same time that case relied mostly on the suspicion that PTA is scum. Contradiction?

I second this question.

Ok, now trying to bring emotion from the Alpha game, when I was scum, into the game here in order to manipluate the town. Scum tactic.

Um how exactly?

Interesting; he's at lynch -2 now, and Ortohoops entire post was him attacking me because I didn't put him at lynch -1 now. So why are you attacking me here?

He is at four votes which is actually L-3.

Although I think you're still just talking about the alpha game here, which again, is scummy.

???

Again, in this game, his ENTIRE CASE on me was based on me not wanting to put PTA at lynch -1 just yet. How can you think his case on me is "brilliant" if you don't think PTA is scum?

Fair point.

RW is obvscum here, and we need to lynch him now.

You sound

very

certain here.

@ Yosariwen

I don't understand why you're voting RW when Poke is another main suspect of yours, has a far larger wagon, and you think Poke may be RW's buddy. To wit: "*10. PoketheAlpaca (PokerFace+populartajo) : Along with the other things that have been pointed out, possible link to Raging Wishbone, in this post where he defends Raging wishbone. "

I concur, your excellency.

Because RW is far scummier.

Tajo is kind of scummy; he's more likely to be scum then a random lynch. On the other hand, RW is incredibly obvscum, especally after that last post of theirs where they came up with a series of really illogical and contradictory excuses to OMGUS vote me (while specifically denying they were OMGUS voting, of course ) and tried to manipulate the town using the alpha game.

If we lynch tajo, I won't be unhappy, but I really want to lynch RW right now.

Your expressed reasons are, again, weak.

For me the largest part of your argument was not that Tajo and Yo/Nuw were partners, but that your points of how yo/nuw were acting scummy seemed very true... again, I just cant undertstand why he keeps apologizing for his partner? I dont get his vote on me at all (so yeah meebe I omgussed a bit) and offering yim chats? She is a smart girl let her post!

hmmm, alright I am gonna....so I dont make an Omgus mistake again.

UNVOTE

I'll let me partner take a look at this thread next chance he gets to revote if he feels it is a good lynch.

If you all were to make me make a vote it would be yos/nuw... I will NOT vote tajo/Poker nor will I vote hoops...yet, lol.

..and also just to make one other point, the dynamic of this game is very difficult, in my opinion... posting seems more like work than actually a game for fun. I dont know why, because I like to spend time here, but trying to read everything and cover every point is takes away from the random... I mean, I think this game seems more serious where as Alpha was just woot lte party... I don't know if that makes any sense? It's still fun, but just different.

[J-Scope]

I think Ortohoops makes a good defense for Hoops early suggestions on approaching the game (mostly posts 68 and 98) are similar in attitude with early opinions made in alpha. I think it could be a way of just getting into the groove of participating in both games so at worst it’s a null tell and at best looks pro-town.

Can we try to make somewhat more compact posts? I feel that this may have a negative impact on some players, given that alpha had its fair share of lurker lynches. I definitely prefer walls of text to one-liners but we’re also only on page 8.

Also, I want to warn people about something I didn’t get a chance to reveal in alpha. I faked those screencapped PMs and QTs. It only took a few minutes and I know at least one other player that can do the same (cough kison cough). So basically I’m thinking we should not rely too heavily on that mode of reveal.

On a side note, if we could get together a second lynch today (that is, before end of page 12…

Basically, you want to lynch twice within the next four pages, and "want to get a bandwagon going quickly here.”

Yes, I would like to. Of course, lynching scum is more important then lynching quickly.

Wait, do you want 2 additional lynches in this action phase or 1 lynch, being the second lynch in this action phase (after A&B)? Post 179 read like you wanted 2 total but 185 reads like you want 3 total.

PoketheAlpaca (PokerFace+populartajo) : Along with the other things that have been pointed out, possible link to Raging Wishbone, in this post where he defends Raging wishbone.

You've actually entirely misinterpreting this, because PTA was not defending RW at all, but actually trying to argue against our point that RW wanting to keep the SK/vig alive was a town-tell.

I understand why he looks suspicious, and I continued to point out scumtells in the post I just made. However, if he was scum, I would kind of expect the wagon to not feel quite so easy and unopposed.

@Yoswen: Do you think that RW looking scummy and there being a supposed connection between PtA and RW makes PtA look more scummy? I don’t see concern in how smoothly the PtA wagon gained attention, but I do share the concern of teams that are not commenting on the wagon.

And what I explained was the feel I get from the postings. Call it gut if you want but DGB is not someone who strays away from a challenge or easily follows a group.

I can agree with this concern. I’ve always seen DGB speak very freely but after the first few pages she’s been quiet. Just recently Zaphod came back from V/LA, so maybe that explains some of the absence.

I never said one was better than the other. What I said back there was Let's lynch them both.

Okay that still sounds odd to me. You would have to lynch one first, and judging by your vote I’d assume you wanted Ortohoops first? Would a particular role flip have given you pause to lynch Zaphod or consideration in some other route?

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Read Trotsky/Korts/Rofl in isolation and tell me they aren't scum.

I did and I wanted to share my results

2 of the Korts posts are filler. 174 tells us he hasn’t read since his last post, 7 days earlier. He should have waited until he had read and then posted, but at least he’s being honest I guess. 184 could have been an impulse but it was unnecessary.

Korts 183 has a decent vote on Zaphod. I don’t think it’s a hop but rather a legit starting point to look at someone. The rest of the post I get the sense he’s not on the same page with rofl and still not fully in the game.

The rofl post I don’t agree with trying to direct a kill on someone you think is scum, but his stance could just be a tactic difference and null tell. Just a question on Zaphod and all together an unimportant post at a time when other people were posting 1 or 2 lines at a time.

Tortsky has had about 10 short posts (again it seems okay since other people were doing it) that make me think they are posting in the moment but not looking at the big picture. Most of the posts were in April, so early on, which could explain why there’s no big picture.

I thought it was funny that one head muscled out the other on his A&B vote choice over PtA, but I don’t see that mis-communication as clearly scummy. I think scum would more likely want to appear cohesive.

I’m not sold on the Trotsky case but I really can’t say they are town. Need to hear more from them.

[Frog Dodging]

This game is becoming extremely frustrating. My partner hasn't posted since, ooooh, early May. I have neither the time nor the inclination to analyse the god damn massive walls of text. Frankly, they're not very interesting. And the way RW quotes other massive walls of text in his own massive wall of text, so that you had to scroll down past them to find out what he was going to say, then scroll back up to see what he was commenting on, was extremely annoying indeed.

However. Yosariwen is town. I'm pretty sure of it, tbh. There are a lot of arguments being put forwards that are simply nonsense. A short summary:
a)Yos patronising Nuwen is a scumtell - bullshit. Not only is that not happening, it's also not true. Yos patronising Nuwen worked as a scumtell in the last game because he was trying to cover up for one of nuwen's mistakes - and nuwen hasn't made a mistake here that is on the same scale.

b)PokeTheTajo is scum because he is bringing in emotion from the alpha game to try and manipulate people - I really don't think this is a scumtell. There is no way they thought consciously to themselves "let's remind everyone of alpha so everyone starts associating Yosiwen A with Yosiwen B." I just don't see it at all.

c)"My biggest concern with RW's log fishing is stated up in today's log, but I'll summarize: it seems like RW is attempting to undermine Yos' case from any possible angle, including whether or not his intra-hydra communication is accurate. This is irrelevant to any counterpoints any the case Yos and I have built - we're posting logs only to indulge posterity and are not humoring RW's idea that our case hinges on consistent logs. But the logs are there and consistent anyway, so neat-o. "
Quote boxes are ugly. Anyway, this doesn't hold water. RW was obsessed with AIM logs in the other game, too. RR believes that WW is an aim chat analysis genius (look at their posts in alpha) and I do think that they would ask for AIM chats regardless of their alignment.

d) "Once again; just to reiterate, the above post and the willingness and need for self-adulation of Yoso on behalf of his partner reek of scum trying to find a way to jusitfy their "existence in the world"" - I beg your pardon? This is probably the worst of the lot - it just doesn't make sense. That's not the way scum mentalities work. Scum do not need adulation. They are not looking to justify their existence in the world. I don't even know how you came to that conclusion.

I'm not sure about RW scum. A lot of it seems to be an emotional OMGUS reaction on Yosiwen's part - he made a nice long detailed post, got attacked for it, felt victimised. However, there is a nugget, a core (that came before the back and forth) which makes some sense - like I said before, we treat the A&B wagon like a townie wagon for the sake of scumhunting, and RW's actions there are scummy.

I'm tempted to vote for ZMD here. Again, they are nowhere near where the actual discussion is happening. They're off in their own little world - which is a comfortable position to be in for scum. They have their suspect, who's unlikely to be lynched, so they can simply leave their vote there for a while. They're not in the thick of a great debate, so they're not going to be questioned too heavily. All they need to do is make a post every once in a while re-affirming their support of a trotsky wagon.
In this game I do it on Santos, partly so I don't have to comment on the wagon on my scumbuddy. In this game I had planned to do it on elmo, my scumpartner (but then ended up lurking instead. Whoops!) You can see it starting, though, if you look at my posts in isolation. This one I do it on alexhans, my scumpartner. It's so much easier to play as scum if you don't have to pay attention to the game.

Just to your chosen vote.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

This isn't a good game for me... stop posting so much and pull a hammer ===[]