Mini 808 - Rabbit Doubt Mafia: Over!

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/confirm

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Needs one more?

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-The source-comic revealed clues to the innocents as they opened doors.
-Grouping ourselves in different rooms, and then locking it for the night might also give us theories on how the mafia night-kill works, if it has been changed.

This sounds reasonable to me, but I'm not very familiar with the manga. Is there reason to believe that we could share hypothetical clues with others by sharing access to rooms? You asked the mod whether we have access to all doors at once. Do the manga characters gain access to additional doors over time? Is there an order to how the doors become accessible? I worry that we may use our code on a door and so associate it with that door, but that access to said door will not be granted until Day X; this is pure speculation. What were the scope and quality of the kill methods in the manga?

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To clarify, by "sharing access" I meant "allowing another player to walk into the room during the day."

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8's my lucky number, so...

Iecerint opens door number 8.
Iecerint moves to room number 8.

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1) If I lock it now, I'll either lock myself inside with Battousai or else lock him in the room while I remain in the corridor. Battousai must leave my room >.<

I think you can only close doors from the inside. Maybe this is a mechanic to prevent doors from becoming permanently inaccessible (assuming that mafia have a means of breaking into locked doors overnight, as otherwise we could just hide in separate rooms and break the system)?

I find Phily's argument that he could have waited for Player 7 to open said door persuasive at this time. MafiaMann, player 7, had not yet opened door 6. I am inclined to believe at this point that Phily made a mistake. On the other hand, I find Battousai's quick vig soft-claim, not to mention his dash for the confirmed weapons room, comparatively troubling.

Vote: Battousai

.

I speculate that there are mechanisms for more barcodes to be found, perhaps on a daily basis. Is there a precedent for that in the manga?

I agree with the suggestion that we should lock our doors and require discussion should players desire access to our rooms.

Iecerint closes door 8.

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as otherwise we could just hide in separate rooms and break the system)

Just realized that this is no good, since at least one player doesn't have a barcode. I think the point it was supporting (just set-up speculation) is unaffected, though.

Does anyone else see that my interogater is telling me not to answer?

I think his point was that he had already agreed that you had probably just made a mistake. Since this was the best you could have done under the circumstances, it was in your best interest to drop the issue. I believe this applied regardless of your alignment, so I don't think your subsequent indignation is a tell. Please let me know if it is apparent that I have missed something crucial about your altercation.

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Ok people I think maybe some people should stay in the same rooms because i have a feeling that you can only be protected by lets say a doctor if you are in a room with them and such.

Assuming that some second player doesn't have an ID, this will happen inevitably.

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Battousai moves to room 3

Got bored skipping rope, now I'm going to see if I can find any research in the library.

Have you missed the beginnings of a consensus around not allowing open access to rooms in the spirit of promoting discussion, or do you think that discussion doesn't apply to you because you don't have a key?

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Whats the difference between standing in a corridor and standing in the library that was openend by someone else?

Presumably, standing in the corridor is completely innocuous. Going into the library seems more innocuous than going into the storage room, but still carries the possibility of activating effects (unpleasant or otherwise). For all I know, there's a scene in the manga where a character enters a library and discovers his/her dark past and goes crazy. Discussion might have brought this to light and affected your decision to enter the library.

To everyone: have any players yet claimed familiarity with the source material? If so, do the rooms yet revealed remind you of anything?

And I don't understand how me going into the library would prevent me from promoting discussion.

That's an interesting point. Coupled with your comment about the lack of a consensus, am I to infer that you do not believe that it is currently wise to restrict access to our rooms?

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PhilyEc locks Room 7 from the outside

I doubt that this will resolve as you seem to think it will:

doors can only be closed from the inside.

I believe "closing" and "locking" are synonymous. To keep your room secure, you have to hide out in it.

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I don't think they can open the storage room door while you have the storage room door itself locked.

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Are you saying that the room you opened reminded you of something?

No; my only knowledge of the manga is some google searches and a wikipedia article. I'm trying to get a better handle on to what extent the set-up is reflective of the source material.

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His dismembered hand was retrieved to allow the group to make use of his barcode.

Does this mean that he gave the town an extra door to open after his death (implies a mechanism for obtaining additional locks, albeit one we clearly shouldn't try to trigger), or does it just mean that the characters maintain access to his already-accessed room after he died? Were there any deaths that led to the characters being cut off from a room?

As I understand it, there's one wolf mastermind in the manga who has a profile similar to the Mod in this game. There's another character (the lover) that she hypnotizes, and that lover hypnotizes various players to commit murders.

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V/LA starting tomorrow morning lasting until Sunday evening.

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Not all doors will be unlocked, they can be locked and stay locked. But night actions are not affected by a locked door (a cop can see your alignment if you are in a locked room, scum can NK you if you are in a locked room, etc.).

On what basis are you claiming this? We now know we have a flavor reason to know that scum will be able to unlock all doors at night, but I don't see how this applies to town roles like cop. Did I miss something?

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29* During the night, you’ll stay at the room you have last moved to during the day, with the exceptions of possible night actions.

Ah, I see. I read that as only applying to certain night actions.

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Back from V/LA

I'm not certain how much I like Battousai's defense of what I found most suspect about his action ("that he was just giving alternate, hypothetical town explanations for his behavior beyond 'no reason'" and "how quickly he mentioned a vig," respectively), but I don't think there's anything to be gained from pressing the issue further at this point.

Unvote

I'm not sure what to make of some players seeming to believe that locked doors have no effect except to optionally block door access during the day. "Possible night actions" implies that some night actions are NOT lock-proof IMO. I guess it's possible that the door locks are red herring, but I doubt it.

I like Ztife's post a lot:

It makes little sense for wolf to be able to NK only after going into this room.

I agree, unless the room locations are arbitrary (e.g. Mod has a list of the order in which rooms are unveiled such that the Storage room was pretty likely to be opened on Day 1 anyway). But I buy this. I think it's somewhat odd that Batt is trying to shift the negative attention onto you, but it could be that he's just trying to highlight Tenchi's alleged selective attention.

As for choosing who to lock ourself up with, I believe for N1 we should stay in groups of 3s. This is because we will probably be able to see the wolf leaving the room if we stick together (the wolf can open all doors, but in order to kill he will need to leave the room right?). And assuming there is 2 wolfs (in a typical 12 man setup, maybe even 3), this is the best way to group ourself for N1. So we know who left rooms or whatever. Or at least have a look at N1 flavour before deciding something else.

This method/implicit theory also sounds good to me, as it hypothesizes a function for the rooms given that they don't affect power-roles' efficacy.

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Oops, forgot to move about as per reasonable suggestions:

Iecerint opens door number 8 (Great Hall).
Iecerint moves to the corridor.
Iecerint moves to room number 3 (Library).
Iecerint moves to the corridor.
Iecerint moves to room number 9 (Bedroom).

I'm finishing in room 9 because it fits my flavor slightly better than the other rooms, but I have no other reasons for approaching that room. I'm entering room 3 on the way because of Ztife's suggestion that we may find clues upon entering it.

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EBWOP: Ah, ignore my first movement. I missed the Mod's note that opening a door is tantamount to entering it. My intent was to specify that I was unlocking door 8 before entering the corridor.

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MOD

: How do we go about investigating these rooms...?

By entering a room. Walking through a room only to go to a next one doesn''t count as entering as you only go through it to enter another room. If you''ve found an item, you''ll be notified through PM

Clarification Question -- I recently left room 8, entered room 3, then entered room 9. It is my understanding that I have therefore investigated rooms 8, 3, and 9. Is this accurate (as I have entered all the rooms), or not (as I didn't end any posts in room 3)?

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For Night Phase we'll all have to get into groups of three thus using 4 rooms. Any suggestions on which rooms they should be?

Note: Room 7 is open to anyone now

I agree with the spirit of Ztife's suggestion, too, but are you (and Ztife) implicitly promoting NL today?

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Kreriov moves to room 6

Do you now have a post restriction?

Iecerint moves to Room 1 (Men's restroom).

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Forgot the storage room, I think.

Iecerint moves to Room 7 (Storage room).

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Ah, my mistake. That said, it looks like I'm still in the Great Hall, so my prior movements seem to've all been blocked by my error. Therefore, I'll re-list the rooms I

am

able to enter to ensure that I will have explored them all.

Iecerint moves to Corridor.
Iecerint moves to Room 3 (Library).
Iecerint moves to Corridor.
Iecerint moves to Room 7 (Storage Room).
Iecerint moves to Corridor.
Iecerint moves to Room 9 (Bedroom)
Iecerint moves to Corridor.
Iecerint moves to Room 13 (Exit Room).

I would appreciate access to the Male Restroom and Crime Scene Room -- the first because my flavor may imply an event at MR and the second because it is generically a locale of interest. I am less eager to explore the Dark Room due to the negative effects of prior exploration.

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You guys are being too open- I'll tell you if I get a PR? My flavor suggests something will happen when I go to this room... Why would you do that, it's not like you were going to get lynched if you don't claim. And telling us what your flavor hints at is something you keep to yourself until you have to tell us. The scum and the town do not need to know about this at this point.

Kmd prior stated that we should keep doors locked so that discussion would be required before a player was granted access to a room. Since his door was (is) still locked, I thought he would probably require rationale before allowing access. I decided to go ahead and give a reason for Room 12, as well, so long as I was already giving one for Room 1.

Iecerint moves to Room 12 (Crime Scene Room).

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(Selective attention? Maybe. Right now, the Battousai case is the best one I can think of, and makes sense for me.)

Point taken. For what it's worth, this is what I was referring to:

Tenchi FOCUSED on that single reason, while assuming with no basis that scum had to go there to use their NK, without even considering any other reason, which is a scumtrait to focus on the scummiest thing someone does to get them lynched.

Batt's mention of Ztife could've been to deflect attention, or it could have been intended as evidence for this interpretation of your behavior. I believe you've already claimed a town motivation for said behavior -- you focus wherever makes the most sense -- which satisfies me for the moment.

I believe him. Because it had a rope. It was pretty early in the game, so it's an ok time to joke around. I think that's what he was doing.

Could you clarify why you didn't give myko this benefit of the doubt? At first glance I interpreted both his comment and your vote as early-game half-jokes, but your follow-ups have suggested your vote was earnest.

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The wolf has the key to all the doors, so why does key revelation hold so much suspicion?

That's true, but in that case I don't really understand the point of having hidden barcodes at all. More via Chekhov's Gun than anything else, I suspect that revealing code locations will hurt us.

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@ Kmd

Kmd prior stated that we should keep doors locked so that discussion would be required before a player was granted access to a room. Since his door was (is) still locked, I thought he would probably require rationale before allowing access.

Please?

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I guess I'll go into the last two rooms I haven't yet:

Iecerint moves to Corridor.
Iecerint moves to Room 6 (Dark Room).
Iecerint moves to Corridor.
Iecerint moves to Room 10 (Empty Room).

So I've now been in every room except the Male Restroom. Kmd, do you plan on allowing anyone access to your room? If so, under what circumstances would you grant access? If not, why not?

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Quick question, why are we grouping together in the first place?

I think it was based on speculation from Ztife that we might receive notices that a roommate left the room during the night.

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Quick question, why are we grouping together in the first place?

I think it was based on speculation from Ztife that we might receive notices that a roommate left the room during the night.

Thought so. How unbalanced is that? I guess we can try it for the first night, but I am highly doubtful that it will actually work that way.

My theory is that both certain scum and certain power roles will run around at night, which makes it a little more ambiguous with respect to the balance issue (pending knowledge of who actually moves around at night).

I'm not sure that Ztife's model is accurate, but I do think that sleeping locations will have an effect on the game, and I don't think it's that scum may only kill those that room with them (as flavor suggests the master wolf has a master-key). The other possibility I can think of is that it affects what players certain power roles may target with their abilities, which also probably makes sleeping in small groups a good idea.

Do you have an alternate theory? Maybe there's a more obvious function I've not considered.

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I like the Tenchi wagon better than those prior, but I also think he's one of the most active players, which can produce the appearance of scumminess where none exists. I'm sensitive to this because I was recently lynched as town in a similar situation.

I think the two most suspect actions taken by players so far have been Kmd's focus on myko (which doesn't strike me as scummy so much as unusual) and Batt's vig soft claim (even if he afterward said it was intended to be hypothetical). I also don't know what to make of Kmd holing himself up in the Male Restroom. Batt's other behavior seems town to me, and the vig thing has already been dealt with, so I don't think badgering him would be productive.

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EBWOP: Ztife's barcode location fishing was a little weird, too, but I think whether that was scummy will be easier to judge once we have a better idea of how the first death plays out. We can throw in my soft flavor claim for completeness, I guess.

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(voting for batt for "picking up a rope", voting phily for trying to add into discussions)

I believe he voted for Phily for breaking from Kmd's method of our selecting our rooms and consequently ending up in the Storage Room (Phily claimed he didn't notice Kmd's selection method and just chose lucky number 7; Kre started this wagon), and he voted for Batt because he chose Phily's Storage Room to enter in spite of other options being on the table, which he thought might suggest a need to find a weapon to kill (Batt claimed the choice was random -- flavor-wise, that he wanted to jump rope -- and pointed out that a vig would hypothetically also have a motivation for entering said room).

I think those were both very reasonable discussions, so I don't fault Tenchi for that. What I find more suspect is that he didn't seem to incorporate their explanations into his interrogation, which may have tunneled him in more than is advisable for Day 1. He's explained this as a playstyle; he likes to be aggressive with his best current lead.

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myko, could you elaborate about your vote on Penguin?

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Tenchi, don't let me scare you into lurking.

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You've practically said nothing at all. You've replied to a serious question by dancing around flavor. As irresponsible as this is, it is not indicative of scummyness, at least by my radar.

Well, he also brought up the vig business, even if he says he meant it hypothetically.

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Looker, I'm not saying that I disagree with your conclusions ("Tenchi is more suspect than Batt"), but your list there seems more than a little one-sided to me. It was my understanding that that was intentional on your part and that your questions about "which case is more plausible" have been rhetorical. Am I correct, or is your post an honest attempt to summarize the dispute? Are you just waiting for Tenchi to specify what he'd like to add to his column?

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I think Battwagon was based on his decision to run into the Storage Room rather than his not having a key per se. I'd also point out that the Tenchi lines you've quoted are "rebutting" pretty weak comments from Batt (e.g. "Maybe I'm a vig"/"I love jumping rope"/etc.). Apart from that, I pretty much agree with you on about Tenchi, but I wish he'd post about this.

I disagree with your assessment of Kre's attempted Philywagon. Phily's action needed to be explained, and he was ultimately only able to explain it as an error. Kre bought this quickly, though Phily got a little defensive, and so the ordeal became drawn out. I do agree with your (implicit) suggestion that, now that the details are out there, Phily's action wasn't scummy.

I don't think notices about leaving rooms necessarily breaks the system. If the theory is correct, it would probably also allow scum to learn likely power roles. I guess lucky room-choosing (say, all scum and PRs in one room) could still screw this up, though. Do you have an alternate theory about the function of sleeping locations? If so, do you have an alternate sleeping location strategy to accompany it? Or do you think that they're a red herring?

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I say KMD's vote sucks, and that he is scum for it.

To clarify, you're saying that his vote on you sucked (i.e. not his current vote on Tenchi)?

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Here's the relevant passage:

Maybe I'm a vig and wanted a weapon for my powerrole. If your theory is true about the scum having to find that room then it is possible that I am a vig. Not saying I am and not saying I'm not.

His use of proper pronouns made it seem like a soft claim to me, too, so I don't think it's fair to fault someone for interpreting it as such. (Actually, I think I mentioned it before Tenchi did.) Incidentally, as I recall, this quote comes right after a part of Batt's post that Looker quoted -- same paragraph. I'm not sure why it was omitted.

Who do you have in mind when you mention players who are only speculating about set-up? Me? Ztife?

Re: Kmd -- I was thrown off by myko's use of present tense.

myko, I think you posted earlier that Tenchi seemed like his "town self." What did you mean by that, and what specifically has Tenchi done between now and then (if anything) to change your mind? You mentioned the change in your post targeting Tenchi and Kmd, but it seems like Tenchiwagon was already set-up prior to your "town self" comment.

I'm going to go ahead and

Vote: Tenchi

just to encourage him to post/weigh in on recent events; it's been quite some time.

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I think Tenchi's behavior is more suspicious than other players', but I think that some players are criticizing him in ways that don't make sense. My post reflects that. I have to admit that I'm also a little suspicious of his personal issues -- they seemed to arise just when I speculated that his high activity was leading to suspicion. In that eventuality, whether he's town or scum, voting him might encourage him to give us something from his perspective.

I share Kmd's confusion regarding Kre's unvote to a degree; however, I do agree with Kre that Tenchi's high activity early in the game (multiple posts per day, etc.) is in large part what led to suspicion. I think Kmd's incredulity at this point should make clear why this is a legitimate reason to re-evaluate the case against someone.

@ myko -- Did you miss my question? Which players specifically do you think are contributing only set-up details?

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Sure. There's also this, if you wouldn't mind:

myko, I think you posted earlier that Tenchi seemed like his "town self." What did you mean by that, and what specifically has Tenchi done between now and then (if anything) to change your mind? You mentioned the change [from a town read to a scum read] in your post targeting Tenchi and Kmd, but it seems like Tenchiwagon was already set-up prior to your "town self" comment.

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EBWOP: It seems that I actually asked Kre (not myko) about which set-up hypothesizers specifically he found scummy, but I was a little vague as to whom the question was directed to. But if you share his feelings on that issue and think that certain players are particularly egregious, I'd still like to hear your take.

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And to follow up that post

FOS: Mafiamann

IMO, you have been actively lurking. You've been focused on flavor more than anything, and responding in short posts that most don't take a real stance.

Im sorry im going to Florida so dont expect it to get better. I still really find the guy who tried to dictate where everybody stayed the scummiest just because i think that what room your in has some power over night actions.

Phily or Ztife (first or second)?

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Bitchibee might need a prod or something. I don't think he's made any posts since he joined the game.

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Ah, missed it.

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Vacation/Limited Access. I think.

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EBWOP: On that note, I'll be

V/LA July 5th to July 10th

. I should be able to check in on Tuesday night, though.

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Having just read MM in isolation, I agree that it would be nice to have on record his view of the various miniwagons, and of other not-yet-wagon'd players. I think the post restriction makes this a bit of a pain for him, which may explain why there's relatively little out there. From what I've read, it seems like he's agreed with Batt's points against Tenchi and is suspicious of Phily's room assignments form, but he does think that we should room in small groups overnight.

My avatar is the painting "Satan sowing his seeds," so I can be Satan if you need a name for me.

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Didn't say it excused it; just that it may explain it.

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I have to say that I can see where myko's coming from with the comment about Kmd, at least. I've never played with him, but he usually strikes me as a leader in the games with townKmd that I've read through, and he's been town in all of those. It could just be that I gravitate toward his avatars. This certainly isn't near enough to warrant my vote on its own, though.

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The only one I can recall for certain offhand is Fantasy mafia, but I think I've seen other games of yours where you're a non-PR and seem active. When I first found the site, I read a lot of games with themes that interested me, and you stood out in several of them (enough that I recognized your name when I saw you on the playerlist). Again, it could just be that you tend to have rather memorable avatars.

On the subject of your hypothesized scumteam, I can understand your suspicion of Tenchi (though a response from him is very, very needed), and, while you've had a weird thing against myko the whole game that never made any sense to me, I can at least understand his pairing with Tenchi.

Kre, on the other hand, doesn't strike me as scummy whatsoever. He asks questions about potentially problematic player actions, then backs off if there's a reasonable explanation (refer to Kre and Phily early on for an example). The only questionable thing he's done this game to my memory is to unvote Tenchi, which, while not scummy in itself (he listed what I think [and you don't] are good reasons for it), is suspect in that he didn't refer to an alternate player to attack. (IMO a better way to handle the unvote might have been "Tenchi's gone right now, and it's getting out of hand. I'm unvoting. Player X did Y; let's talk about that.")

Is his unvote on Tenchi the main basis for your suspicion of him?

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I also think it's a little weird that you won't let anyone into the bathroom with you, flavor aside.

Also, is Batt aware that he's locked in the Crime Scene Room with Looker?

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^ He's inevitably going to reference Tenchi's pre-"personal business" activity level. It's similar to the argument Kre gave for unvoting Tenchi (and that I gave in the post where I voted Tenchi).

Keep in mind that myko's gone on record as saying that he finds Tenchi scummy. It's not as if myko's arguing that Tenchi is a saint. That said, this was probably poor choice of words regardless of myko's alignment:

Tenchi is a player that tends to play with fire, like he does here.

His things he said were scummy, but he took risks, something I consider town.

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If you don't want to pursue the Tenchi situation because he's not here, I think that's a reasonable course of action; however, failing to bring up an alternate conversation topic will lead to lurker behavior for anyone who agrees with you, as there's implicitly nothing to discuss until Tenchi comes back and restarts the thread. Your decision not to provide an alternate topic of conversation is a null-tell in my view -- you've pointed out reasonably that you don't want to rush into anything -- but I still wish you'd offered a preferred way to spend the time while Tenchi was away.

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Tenchi, I have to say that I agree with Kmd with regard to your return post. It reads more like a summary of non-Tenchi troubling behavior than an individual's take on the game. For example, you'll comment that someone said something "interesting" without providing any context. What kind of interesting? Scummy? Insightful? It's not always clear. The closest you come to what I was hoping for is your (implicit) suspicion of myko.

That said, I think you bring up some good points that others haven't been emphasizing. I agree that myko's "soundbyte" summary of your defense was lacking, as was his claim that your case against Batt was based on his being keyless. I think the second of these was poor play rather than scummy play -- it's such an extreme misrepresentation that I don't think anyone would make it intentionally.

I think Batt's comment is just a joke about the flavor of being locked in a room with someone of indeterminate gender and the mod. On that note, given that your suspicion of Batt is based around his Storage Room entry, why aren't you suspicious of Phily for deviating from Kmd's room assignment plan? IMO both players have offered plausible-if-not-excellent explanations for their behavior (respectively, no key -> has to go into some room, random apart from that, [extra]-soft-vig claim if that doesn't satisfy you; and having misread in-thread).

myko's side of the Phily/myko discussion is doing even less for me, but it may just be that they've tunneled in on one another a bit. myko, do you really believe that there are 4 scum? Also, who's your hypothesized 4th scum? I recall that you've emphasized Phily/Kmd/Tenchi the past few days.

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Repeating mine:

Having just read MM in isolation, I agree that it would be nice to have on record his view of the various miniwagons, and of other not-yet-wagon'd players. I think the post restriction makes this a bit of a pain for him, which may explain why there's relatively little out there. From what I've read, it seems like he's agreed with Batt's points against Tenchi and is suspicious of Phily's room assignments form, but he does think that we should room in small groups overnight.

My avatar is the painting "Satan sowing his seeds," so I can be Satan if you need a name for me.

I'd just like you to contribute your perspective of the various conflicts (namely, Kmd/Phily/myko and Tenchi/Batt). Looker's question may be a reasonable way to approach Tenchi's wagon.

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Batt seems to agree here, I've not seen KMD nor Iece comment on my attacks either.

Phily, if I recall correctly, your case against myko is based mostly on the doublevote post, though you think his response to your pressure has also been scummy. If that's accurate, I don't think I find the argument convincing. I'm pretty sure myko had been promising a catching-up post for awhile, so I think it's reasonable that he'd make a write-as-you-read post that included a doublevote. I agree with you that his response to pressure may contain elements of OMGUS, but a couple of your posts are similarly questionable (Post 449, where you implied that myko had made claims I don't believe he'd made). Moreover, I think myko has done a better job than you of avoiding the appearance of tunneling.

I think myko's scummiest moment that is difficult to attribute to poor play has been his attack on Tenchi that in my view unfairly characterized his attacks on Batt.

The original purpose of my Tenchi vote was to discourage Tenchi from lurking to safety, which is no longer relevant.

Unvote

for now.

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I didn't focus as much on the "mostly gut" comment as on myko's mention of Kmd's early game solo mykolynch campaign, which I've repeatedly said didn't make much sense to me, either. I agree that it's a big stretch to vote Kmd on that basis alone, but I could imagine OMGUS feelings contributing enough to push it to a vote regardless of alignment.

Regarding the other -- I may misunderstand your question, but whether myko's lying or not, I don't expect him to change his story. It seems like his sketchiest behavior has been from before you started applying pressure; similarly, it doesn't seem like the pressure has been very productive. I think myko's response to Kmd's question, by contrast, has been productive.

It seems that you think myko has lied about his suspicion of Kmd and that he really suspected Tenchi. IMO myko's most obvious motive to lie in this way would be to protect scumbuddy Tenchi. Given that, shouldn't a player with your suspicions be focusing on Tenchi rather than myko, since myko flipping town tells us less than Tenchi flipping town? I'm not saying I ascribe to this view of things, but it seems to fit what I believe you find suspect about myko's play. Please correct me if I have forgotten something important that changes this.

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Back for a few hours tonight. Have caught up:

Kmd: It looks like one-third of your points against Tenchi are on account of his speculation at the setup. In my opinion, other players have been just as guilty of this -- namely, I believe Ztife and I have made a few flavor/setup-based posts. Is there something different about our (and others') speculation about flavor that makes it less scummy, or is it just that Tenchi also has the bandwagoning in his corner?

I'd also encourage you to re-examine Kre's alleged tunnel on Phily. For one, the basis of his attack on Phily was that Phily deviated from the plan that you had formulated (Phily said he didn't read all of your post), so I'm guessing that it's not that you think that Kre was wrong to question Phily. Kre quickly accepted that explanation and said his action was a null-tell, but the argument wore on because Phily became defensive. (I also liked Kre's reasons for unvoting Tenchi, but that's neither here nor there.)

His "wild/unsupported" comment does seem a little off, as none of the reasons in your post are new. Maybe the comment was based on your apparently having mentally locked-in a scumteam with members XYZ on Day 1 rather than the cases on the individual players.

Also, unless you received a PM (or something) suggesting that it would be pro-town to keep players out of the bathroom, I think you should let us into the bathroom. You are the only player who has not allowed access to his room.

That said, Gregory's post was a little weird. O_o

[Iecerint]

Back again. No more running off for awhile:

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Tenchi - Jumping wagons for little or no reason.
PhilyEc - Being way to defensive about mistakes
Mykonian - This whole weird KMD back and forth thing
Kmd - Pushing a bad case
Ztife - Lurking

Tenchi and Phily I can understand categorically, but those aren't the best reasons out there in my view. The same could go for myko. And Kmd is suspicious for pushing a case against a player that you yourself think is scummy (granted, a poor one)? This is not the list I would have expected to see. Particularly, could you clarify your view of myko and Kmd? Are they both scum? Is one of them scum?

Gregory, I was referring to your set-up speculation that restrooms might protect female players.

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I expected to see a list with different reasons, and/or conditional scum relationships. The suspects themselves are fine, except that I find Kmd-myko improbable. I don't think Kre is necessarily positing such a pairing, but the post is ambiguous.

I'm ashamed to say that I don't really have strong reads in this game. If I were forced at gunpoint to vote a player, it would be Tenchi both because Batt's characterization of Tenchi's attack on him seemed plausible to me and because his activity dropped dramatically after I questioned whether his high activity was causing problems for him. The second is partially explained by V/LA, but not wholly.

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^ I've wanted to come into the bathroom since page 12 or so. Why didn't I ever get a funny face?

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^ It's also possible that each room, once opened, has events associated with it tied to (for example) specific/otherwise players entering. I'm actually inclined to believe that something like that is probably the case, as the doorlocks otherwise have no hypothesized function.

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could you explain that, perhaps with an example?

I'm not sure what's unclear, but, since you asked, rather than the first player who enters a room receiving something, room-based rewards may be triggered by a specific player receiving something. If this isn't the case -- if it's always the first player to enter the room -- then the door locks aren't keeping any abilities away from other players, and they presumably aren't going to block NKs, either. However, if it is the case, door locks have the function to restrict room access in a meaningful way.

Kmd, why do you think Gregory is town? His suspects?

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I normally find the "I got nothin'; I'll re-read and get back to ya later" kind of post to be slightly scummy, or at least anti-town (mostly because people very rarely follow-up on that sort of thing). I say "normally" because, in this particular game, I don't have a lot of confidence in my reads. But I certainly don't think that lack of confidence is a towntell.

For that matter, his suspects don't even really mesh with yours. He likes Kre and Phily; you dislike Kre, and Phily is your backup scum.

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@Mykonian - Um, gee, could it be that Kmd popped to the top of my list when he started lying and misrepresenting posts?

I understand the Kmd suspicion, and I may even understand the misrepresentation, but I don't understand the "lying." Where's that?

In fact, I demand everyone to place a vote by deadline.

Vote: Tenchi

. I am highly annoyed by his convenient disappearance right around the time that lots of players noted his high activity. I agree with Kmd that his only substantial post since then was underwhelming. Part of the reason I've been so hesitant with this is that my second-favorite lynch, for reasons similar to Tenchi's case, is probably Kmd. I think it's unlikely that Tenchi and Kmd share an alignment.

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It's only a lie if Kmd is scum. Otherwise, it's just a bad guess.

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myko, please refer to my previous post.

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No saying if you dont vote your scum is not effective because who but scum would do things purely to prove they are not scum

Could you quote the specific Kmd comments you find objectionable?

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Then it was directed at Batt, right? I was thrown off by the use of second person after Kmd answered you.

I don't think Batt quite framed it that way. His point is that votes are information. Information is protown because it can be analyzed. In the absence of information, lynches are random and mafia wins on average. I agree with Kmd on that point.

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myko, I was answering this post:

It's only a lie if Kmd is scum. Otherwise, it's just a bad guess.

and who do you want to lynch.

same for phily: please be constructive. You said yourself you hated people that went around calling other peoples cases bad. Please pick out the best one, so we don't have to go to fast for a lynch.

I had just voted for Tenchi in my prior post and spelled-out why. That's all I was pointing out

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An extension wouldn't hurt my feelings. I want Tenchi to participate.

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Looker, Ztife, Gregory, Tenchi, & Mafiamann --

Do you find any of the three main wagons (Kmd, myko, Tenchi) credible?

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Is the disease name the shortest-spelt wagon, or the intermediately-spelt wagon?

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I'm pretty ambivalent about Kmd v. myko. I agree with Kre that Kmd has misrepresented her play (whether intentionally or due to laziness) a few times this game. On the other hand, my gut weakly prefers myko. I'm worried that this may just be because Kmd is friendlier. I'll make a decision tomorrow if a bunch of players haven't migrated to Tenchi's wagon.

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I can't help it.

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Here's the example I was thinking of:

-Basically tunnels on Phily early.

Kre didn't tunnel on Phily. She asked questions about his behavior, he answered them, and then she concluded that it was a null tell and didn't press the issue. Phily got really defensive at this point with "Why would you even suspect me; I am not suspicious"-type posts, so Kre explained why his behavior had been worth looking into and reiterated that she thought it was null. This was a drawn-out affair, but it was Phily's defensiveness that made it so.

Kre and I pointed out as much, and you amended your criticism this way:

I'm not saying that looking at Phily was scummy. I'm saying that looking at ONLY Phily was scummy.

As I read this, it means that looking into Phily was OK, but tunneling on Phily wasn't. (Let me know if I'm interpreting your post incorrectly.) The problem with this is that Kre didn't tunnel.

[Iecerint]

Well, you were upset with his reasons for unvoting Tenchi, so that's the obvious place to look. There're three posts in his iso on the subject; he agrees with Batt's view that Tenchi was scummy for jumping wagons and follows up in two other posts until Tenchi starts lurking and he unvotes.

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myko, you were in the WoT mini, right? Could you remind me of what your role was in that?

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^ In the source material, scum has a key that opens all the doors. If flavor is any guide, it's probable that locking the door is only going to keep out town PRs, if anything.

I promised I'd vote one of the main wagons today if I was still alone on Tenchi, so I'll

unvote, Vote: Kmd

. I'm really not crazy about the case against him (weird early tunnel on myko, weirder Kre attack), but I don't like the case on myko (the doublevote post) much at all, so he's winning by default. I agree that myko's posts can give a kinda bad feeling sometimes, but reading him here gives me the same impression as I got when I read the WoT mini, so I'm considering that null.

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Mastin, I think it's too late to implement your plan (which appears to be that everyone goes to their room and locks the door). We actually flirted with the idea you're suggesting in the early game, but we ultimately doubted the game would be so easily breakable. Moreover, the two players without rooms are left out of the loop. I'd say that at best it lets scum WIFOM us by killing one of those two, and at worst it blocks town PR.

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As I understand it, one scum (same role as the Mod in this game) fakes her death and then hypnotizes another female player to commit the murders. The game probably won't be as breakable as that, though.

It's also possible that scum can prevent PRs by denying access to certain rooms at night (e.g. what Mastin is doing at the Library). He's claimed that he wants all of us to lock ourselves in our own rooms, presumably under the assumption that this will make us safe. I suspect his plan, especially if its only actual effect is to lock the library, is anti-town.

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I'd like to give Mastin a chance to unlock his door if he so chooses before we hammer, since his action was apparently based on the assumption that all doors would be locked, and I don't think that's going to happen.

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I predict that Mastin lets the timer run out on the Library.

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I would support an extension.

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Vote: Mastin

I dispute Kmd's assertion that Mastin was "obvtown." I think locking the library (and keeping it locked) in spite of explanations for it being an anti-town action should be cause for concern. It doesn't help that both of his predecessors active-lurked to replacement.

[Iecerint]

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Gregory is PaperPenguin. Paperpenguin was famous for knowing flavor well. Gregory is famous for speculating that female roles are safe from NK in Kmd's male restroom, and also some other things. Kmd called him obvtown Day 1, prompting Batt and me to ask why.

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I was responding to the couple of "Who is Gregory" posts. I think his play is worth summarizing because there's apparently something in his first few posts that struck you as obvtown; at the time, I believe you said it was because he expressed intent to be more involved in the game. By now I think he's indeed stepped up, but I don't think he was obvtown when you first claimed as much.

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Unless someone has multiple keys, I think we're out of them. Batt didn't have one, and there are 11 doors open.

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MSG, whether your restriction is real or not, its affect on your play is immaterial. Either it's real and was not intended for a specific alignment, or it is not real and was intended to justify minimal contributions from scum.

I agree with Gregory that Batt should not have pointed out the post restriction to MSG.

[Iecerint]

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[Iecerint]

Are people ignoring Mastin because of his meta, or because they don't think he's done anything anti-town?

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A character found a clue in the library in the source material. Kre's death flavor may also imply it may be used for some players' investigations. It seems like as decent a place to hang out as any. It's certainly more likely to prompt a game mechanic event than hanging out in the corridor.

Do you really think I'm scummy for being in the Library?

I agree that Kmd looks scummy. He basically tunneled on myko all day for silly reasons (initially) and was incorrect -- plus some weird Kre accusations for good measure. The Tenchi case was reasonable, but 2/3 isn't great. He spent most of today bantering with you about his notoriety (or something). That said, I think you're a better lynch due to the behavior of your predecessors (lurk to replacement), your anti-town decision to lock the Library, your half of the banter with Kmd, and your unreliable meta.

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^ Yep, Kmd called Greg obvtown. Batt and I got upset because Greg hadn't yet done anything particularly remarkable at that time.

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Of the 6 other than myself who voted Myko, Mastin and Gregory were obvtown yesterday. Batt was pretty townie. Looker was pretty townie. Let's lynch either Phily or Don.

I'd misremembered the first time you called Greg town as "obvtown," too, Kmd, but you did explicitly call him obvtown above.

Your tunnel on myko is most egregious early in the game (e.g. before the shouting match with Phily), when it was based only on the RVS comment to Looker. It's true that you went after Kre a bit, but I never found that case very credible. You didn't go after Tenchi as much, either, though probably more because he was lurking/V/LA than anything else. I'd forgotten about Phily; I can recall you saying that he was your backup in case one of myko/Tenchi/Kre was incorrect. Did your case on Phily ever go beyond that? I can't recall.

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Kmd, could you clarify you case on DJ? It seems like your used vote analysis to break down the possible suspects and then picked a favorite, but it's not clear what factors led to the favorite-picking.

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That's L-2?

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Molestargazer''s vote hasn''t been counted as he didn''t unvote first.

I think he's referring to this.

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His VC analysis assumes that at least one person on myko's wagon was scum. From there, he thought you were the scummiest of them.

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Myko had a catch-up post where he listed his suspicions as he went along. As a result, he voted for two different players in the post. Phily argued that the post was scummy because he thought the evidence against the second-voted player was weaker than that against the first. It was the first "scummy" myko action apart from the RVS thing Kmd stuck with early on IIRC.

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Phily -- I didn't mean to imply that you were wrong in thinking that there was a discrepancy. There certainly was. Whether the discrepancy was scummy is another issue, but it was certainly worthy of a limited amount of scrutiny.

I'm not crazy about DJ's responses to Kmd's pressure, but I'm not crazy about Kmd, either. This sounds familiar. <_<

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A) Kmd has been voting you all day and has directed his last several posts at you and your behavior.

B) I don't like your explanation for hammering, namely. More recently:

players don't get to L-1 by accident.

not everyone in town needs to scumhunt.

I would never type these as town. Granted, I like to think I wouldn't type them as scum, either. But they're certainly odd. Myko made some similarly odd comments after some pressure from Kmd, which is why I said this seems familiar.

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Sure, I think players get to L-1 by accident from time to time. But more than that, what's scummy (or at least odd) about your statement is that it implies that scum never hammers town. I doubt that.

Also, sure, I think it's best if everyone tries to scumhunt. On average, town scumhunters are easier to distinguish from scum scumhunters than are town lurkers from scum lurkers.

The play is odd because it doesn't seem particularly pro-town, but I don't think it's very good play for scum, either.

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@ DJ -- I think you're misunderstanding some of what I've typed. I am differentiating "odd" and "scummy" play. Scummy play is play that's indicative of scum. Odd play is play that is unusual for both town and scum. I think your response to Kmd's pressure (and myko's response to the same scenario yesterday) has been odd rather than scummy. I commented as much because the same scenario didn't work out too well with myko Day 1.

I didn't say that you said that scum never hammers town. I said that that was an implication of your statement "players don't get to L-1 by accident." It sounds like you argued that scum are more likely to be earlier to on the wagon, so we should focus there and give you the benefit of the doubt. (Let me know if I misunderstood what you meant.) If this is true, it means that scum is comparably unlikely to hammer town (and totally unlikely if we take your statement literally).

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MSG -- I'm not sure what question you're asking. Could you clarify what you're asking about?

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The only thing keeping me from switching to DJ is Ztife.

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I asked awhile ago, but I don't think anyone responded. Are we ignoring Mastin because of his prior meta, or for other reasons?

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MSG, it looks like you're asking about this post:

Myko had a catch-up post where he listed his suspicions as he went along. As a result, he voted for two different players in the post. Phily argued that the post was scummy because he thought the evidence against the second-voted player was weaker than that against the first. It was the first "scummy" myko action apart from the RVS thing Kmd stuck with early on IIRC.

I don't think that myko's post itself was scummy, no. I don't think that play benefits myko as scum (or town). The post is best understood as poor communication skills (because the reason for the doublevote was not transparent) and/or poor play (regardless of alignment).

I don't think Phily was scummy to investigate the doublevote post, but his continued attack may be a little suspicious. On the other hand, a) we already saw him be volatile when Kre asked about his play deviation early on, so it may be null for him, and b) myko's defense could've been better, too, as I think Phily has since pointed out.

FoS: Kmd

.
1. This is the second time this game that you have called someone obvtown with no clear basis for your belief.
2. Mastin is never obvtown.

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Is Gregory at L-1?

I'm not really seeing the case against him. As far as I can recall, DJ made some odd responses to Kmd's comments ("some town players shouldn't scumhunt," etc.), which Greg jumped on, and then people started jumping on Greg. He was pretty vacuous Day 1 (but he replaced in late), and his predecessor knew about the flavor.

Has Greg done something else?

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Are you still confident about Gregory, your prior obvtown read? I know you've FoS'd MSG. How serious are you about the DJ vote?

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I've reread DJ and Greg in iso. Both have played strangely, but not in ways that clearly benefit them as scum. I'll

Vote: Gregory

because I agree with MSG that he's been disingenuous with his attacks on DJ. On the other hand, players who defend lurking, apparently on the basis of not having too much going on in the thread being good, are pretty deserving of scrutiny, so I'm not as happy as I could be about my vote.

If I had my way, I would prefer to lynch Mastin, Phily, or Tenchi before Greg. Phily and Tenchi do not exist, and Mastin doesn't seem to be a popular lynch, so I'll go with the best viable option.

This puts Gregory at L-1. I think he said he'd post tomorrow.

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I think you should either claim, or make a case that someone else is a better lynch due to XYZ.

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Tenchi has been needing to be replaced all day. Voting Tenchi isn't going to get us anywhere unless he can be replaced quickly. The same goes for Phily.

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What's the deal with the perfect key? Or are we going to find out shortly?

unvote; Vote: Gregory

since I apparently forgot to unvote before.

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Greg, does your flavor give you reason to suspect that you have an additional ability on top of being the doctor? That would strike me as a pretty extreme role. Coupled with the convenience of your claim for scum (can't safely be investigated), I am not sure I believe your claim.

MSG, MM was the originator of the restriction (if it is faked), and he was a lurker. As his replacement, you have no choice but to continue his restriction. We should interpret the utility of faking the restriction in the context of how MM used it.

Batt, I think it's OK to vote someone for inactivity if they are actively lurking because this can pressure them to contribute. However, I don't think that that's the case with Tenchi. Tenchi just isn't here; voting him won't help us get a read on him. He should've been replaced something like a month ago. If you suspect Tenchi (or Phily), maybe you could help SHC find a replacement...?

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Wait. So you were an Artist during Day 1, but your role changed to Insane-doc overnight?

Do you need the library open to save people? Does it matter where individual players are (e.g. whether they're in the library)?

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EBWOP: Whether they're in the

library

hospital.

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^ What're you impressed with...?

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^ Give your flavor.

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The answer to Kmd's question is in Gregory's post just prior to that. Unless Kmd has a basis for believing that Gregory is lying about that.

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^ Give your flavor.

don't know what you mean with this. Please explain.

Please paraphrase any flavor text regarding your Artist-InsaneDoc personas. For example, it might explain why your character is participating in the game, or it might explain the kind of person your character has been up to this point.

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Kmd, I haven't posted as regularly in this game as I was doing in Twilight mafia. (I'm OK saying that outright now because I was just NK'd.) Is there a reason you haven't called me out on that?

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^ What're you impressed with...?

Looker, what were you impressed with before?

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...

You never read your role PM?

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......O_o

Why would you do that? Beyond that, why would you admit to that? What if you're a town power-role?

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Why the hell have you been defending Gregory if you haven't read the thread?

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I think she's referring to his current state. He's not voting. It would be useful to know his scum reads if they have changed since he unvoted.

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DJ, I share your confusion that MSG is still alive. However, I don't think he'll be modkilled. First, MM made a similar mistake early on, quickly caught it and apologized, and was not modkilled for it. Second, MSG also immediately apologized for it. Either there is no restriction, and that's why MSG is alive, or Zaz is pretty forgiving. In other words, it's not that Zaz doesn't notice; therefore, asking for him to be modkilled will probably have no effect.

I don't think Looker is lying about it. Or, if he is, he had no reason to -- unless he was trying to make his support of Greg null. Lynching either of them will make the story clearer.

I guess the NK flavor suggesting that Looker was some kind of investigative role was just a coincidence, then. Or, at least, Looker didn't do any investigating last night. Because of the flavor and his logic-less defense of Greg, I'd been wondering whether he'd checked Greg last night and gotten an innocent result or something.

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As I recall it, the case against DJ is that he was on myko's lynch and answered some of Kmd's questions oddly. Then some players thought Greg was getting disproportionately excited about DJ, and Greg started to become the favored lynch. Is there more to it?

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DJ:

20* A modkill will end the day. However, if the modkill is used for strategic reasons, one player on your side will get punished.

I'm not sure whether "strategic reasons" apply, but it is at any rate clear that the modkill will end the day. I mention as much because it sounds like you think it won't ("gaining information without lynching").

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It has to be nulled because you (allegedly) have no idea whether you are town or scum. Hence, everything you have said is null with regard to your alignment.

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Batt makes a good point that your hypothetical scumbuddies would have let you know that you're scum, though. So if you're scum, you almost certainly know about it. This is all a bit beside-the-point, because if you're scum this is probably all a fabrication, anyway.

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I think that's a really bad argument, Batt. You should always lynch genuinely scummy players over random lynches. If you want to lynch Looker, you should do so because you think he's lying about being unaware of his alignment. If he is genuinely unaware of his alignment, he is more likely to be town. Another problem with lynching Looker is that if he turns up town we get no new information from it whatsoever, as he's unlikely to've lied about not knowing his alignment if he is town.

DJ, I think the points Greg has listed are worth considering. You've already explained them both, but that doesn't mean they should be taken off the table.

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^ If that last sentence is directed at me, I'd like to clarify that I am not clearing Looker. Rather, I am suggesting that lynching Looker while accepting his story about not knowing his alignment would be silly. It seemed like that was Batt's position, as Looker is only a "random lynch" if we believe his story.

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Lynching scummy players gives us information. Lynching Looker doesn't (unless he's scum and lying about not knowing his role). So we should prefer to lynch scummy players assuming that they exist so that town will gain information about other players' alignment. It's possible, if remote, that Looker's alignment will ultimately be determinable by process of elimination.

I would strongly encourage Looker to play to win. If he's telling the truth about not knowing his alignment, he's probably town, so this means looking at his role and playing according to it.

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We should lynch players who'll give us more information first and lynch players who'll give us less information later. Looker will give us less information. Therefore, we should lynch him later.

The exception is if you think Looker is lying scum. In that case, Looker gives lots of information, because he knows his alignment. But otherwise, I think lynching someone else is preferable.

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Kmd's "we are not lynching these people" list are pretty much my 3 favorite lynches.

DJ, the case against you is your bizarre "not everyone has to scumhunt" comment and the associated comments. The case on Looker is just a policy lynch as far as I can tell. I agree that Batt looks bad for buying into it. I'm not sure why you don't think Kmd looks bad for buying into it; maybe you do and just haven't said as much.

I'd vote MSG with you if I weren't too busy voting Greg.

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Well, MM was pretty scummy (at best, unhelpful). Not that I expect you to explain that to me, but it's something other than your restriction.

I wish Tenchi and Mastin's slots had players in them. : /

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Kmd, may I ask on what basis I am town. You've said that several times, but I don't really understand how you come to that conclusion. Namely, I'm not scumhunting as much in this game as I usually do (not for lack of trying), and I've posted in this game less than I usually do.

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EBWOP: ?*

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I second Batt's request.

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If a player...fakes breaking a rule...he will be punished for doing so. The punishment depends on the infraction.

What if a player breaks a fake rule? Does that constitute faking breaking a rule?

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My point is that you've repeatedly declared me town even though you literally have no reason to (except by PoE, maybe). Other players have done so, too, but unlike their comments, yours seem unsupported. Your reads of other players have been pretty similar -- your reads on Kre and Greg come to mind. When you do give reasons for your reads beyond "gut," they're almost always arguments someone else has come up with. This might be OK if your gut reads made sense to me, but they really haven't this game.

I'm wondering if you're trying to buddy me on the back of having read my comment about my susceptibility to it in your Twilight mafia thread. Were it not for the fact that I know you've been away for much of the past few weeks, I would suspect you significantly.

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No. Why don't you let everyone know who

you

are.

You could at least let YOURSELF know who you are. We've all done that much.

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What's depressing?

Greg claiming a not-confirmable role that is investi-proof is probably suspicious enough to trump MSG and DJ IMO.

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You've been busy, so maybe there's more to your reads than you've had time to communicate, or maybe you didn't notice the post I made in the game you were modding. Lack of time may also make analysis difficult or impossible for you, which makes your reliance on gut reads less problematic than it would otherwise be.

Thinking a player is town because of perceived towntells is not scummy; however, thinking a player is town for no reason at all, especially if this happens with enough players that investigative roles can't explain it (Greg + Iec on D2, in this case), is.

I also find your pursuit of the easy policy lynch on Looker to be slightly scummy, but I agree that Looker is a bit obnoxious.

I'm going to look back at who voted for Greg.

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As I understand them, the Mod's comments indicate that fake rules will be enforced in the same way as real rules. This means that MSG's infraction is being largely ignored not because the restriction isn't real, but because the infraction was minor (forgetting to mess with the quote). So MSG's failure to be punished is null with respect to his truthfulness.

I can't tell if your other comments are sarcastic, but I appreciate the sentiment, regardless.

I count 3 players in need of replacement -- Tenchi, Mastin, and Phily. This is a little extreme. It takes 6 of the 7 of us agreeing on something to lynch a player. If replacing is impossible, something like modkills may be necessary to keep the game going.

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the post restriction is that he can't use names. he used a name. how is that a "minor infraction"? msg has recieved no punishment, be it fake or real. so yeah, whatever.

I think you're misunderstanding. I am not personally arguing that the infraction was minor. I'm pointing out that, because the Mod has said he would punish MSG regardless of whether it was an official rule or an imaginary rule, he evidently thinks that it is such.

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You're misunderstanding. The Mod has said that whether or not rules are real will not affect how he enforces them. For example, if I claimed to be under a restriction where I could post using only smilies, I would be punished for breaking that rule even if it were only an imaginary, self-imposed rule. So whether MSG gets a warning or not via your method is null with regard to both her alignment and whether she is lying.

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EBWOP: If anyone reads the Mod's text differently, feel free to correct me.

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You may be right about how the Mod came to decide how to address the issue, but that doesn't change the fact that getting MSG to break the rules is at this point likely to lead to consequences regardless of MSG's circumstances.

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Batt is getting a little free with the scumwand. I would find this worrisome except that I agree with him.

MSG, I actually agree with DJ that the Mod being reluctant to intervene comes down on the side of the rule not being mod-derived. I think the Mod would be comparatively dogmatic about mod-derived rules.

Looker, is there a reason you're not asking Greg about Kmd?

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That group of 5 is your scumlist?

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Come to think of it, I'd have thought that Greg'd be less incredulous of MSG's post restriction if his insane doc status were real. His role allegedly changed (albeit later) on account of (he speculates) opening the Hospital door; MSG's is alleged to have changed upon opening the Dark Room door.

Another thought -- if Greg's alleged rolechange is attributed to his opening the Hospital door, then it is probably null with regard to his alignment.

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Greg, you're said that you think MSG is scum, or at least more likely scum than DJ. (Please clarify that, btw.) Do you think MSG is lying about his restriction?

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Let me make sure I understand you, DJ. You want to risk the cop on Greg instead of killing Greg today. You think that Batt is the second-most-likely scum. Do I have that right?

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Looker, I'm not sure about Kmd. I asked about him because I'd just brought it up and it seemed to be ignored. I didn't know if you were trying to minimize the case against him.

Also, you think I'm potentially scum with Mastin? Why?

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I came out wanting to lynch Mastin and kept my vote there for like 2 rl weeks or something, though. It's not just lack of buddying. I agree that keeping possibilities open is useful, but a line has to be drawn somewhere. What's the basis of your Iec-Mastin link? Why are you excluding Tenchi from consideration?

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Looker, I asked about Tenchi because you included Phily, but not Tenchi. Neither player is here, so it doesn't make sense to me that you'd include one but not the other. I think both Tenchi and Phily are worthy of consideration based on their play yesterday, though it's hard to keep them in the picture after all the shenanigans today. Also, you still haven't said where the Iec-Mastin link comes from.

I was about to switch to voting DJ on the basis of his "plan," but it looks like he misremembered Greg's role or something, so maybe I should disregard it. Do other people think he's telling the truth about misremembering? I'm not crazy about him picking up Batt's rhetoric just a few posts after thinking Batt's scum.

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Nah, I'm referring to the places where Batt's been emphasizing that the Mod wouldn't inform Greg about his sanity. He's continuously mentioned as much, and no one else's really taken to that particular point IIRC, so you must have picked it up from him. This is strange because you want to lynch Batt for his last couple of positions, but now you're advocating one of his positions.

An alternative explanation is that you're not reading all of Batt's posts and happened to independently come to the same conclusion as him, which is similarly suspect.

Please let me know if there is an third explanation I have missed.

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Yep, sorry; you're correct, DJ. Thanks for straightening that out for me. I could see you confusing Greg's insane-doc with the traditional insane-doc role, too.

now he's grabbing my reason for voting greg and doesn't seem to mind getting credit for something he should damn well know isn't true.

I assume you're referring to his not having corrected me or set things straight up until now?

Humor me, Looker.

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Is it possible that MSG only has to censor people in his posts and not the "Player A wrote:" structure of the quote function, if not abused obviously?

We have evidence that MSG has to remove all names. Check MM in iso. He made this mistake in an early post-restriction post and had to ask the mod for forgiveness. Granted, this doesn't necessarily mean the penalty is always (or ever) a modkill. For that matter, I suppose it's possible, if the restriction is real, that it was unclear with regard to how quotes would be handled, though. MM may have misunderstood.

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I think DJ's deal with MSG wasn't really scummy early on when he apparently didn't know a modkill would end the day, but it was somewhat scummy if he ever petitioned for it after that. I vaguely recall that he did, but I could be wrong about that.

I think we should lynch either Greg or Looker (or Kmd) before Batt. I think Greg is fakeclaiming, and I think Looker is probably lying about not reading his PM. (Kmd mostly just has reads that don't make any sense.) I agree with DJ that Batt's most recent behavior is a little odd, but he looked pretty town Day 1 -- or, at least, I think his case against Tenchi was similarly as solid as your case against Batt.

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DJ: OK, I remember you pushing for the modkill even after you knew it would end the day, and I found that scummy. Is that better? Also, why wouldn't you just set the record straight in a circumstance like that?

I think Greg is lying because doctor is the classic scum PR fakeclaim. That he goes a step farther and claims investi-proof doctor just makes it worse. His claim is very convenient for scum. I also don't like that he doesn't believe MSG. As they apparently both experienced role changes due to opening a door, I'd expect Greg to give MSG more the benefit of the doubt than the rest of us.

I think Looker is lying because that's a long time to go without looking at a role. At any rate, I personally wouldn't have that much self-control. The only thing supporting the claim is that he claimed it at a time that wasn't very opportunistic; it's not clear what Looker gained by making the claim when he did.

I share MSG's incredulity at your "rolefishing" accusation. At worst, his action will make Greg publicize his read of MSG (which, judging from what MSG quoted, is some kind of PR), which may be anti-town, but isn't scummy because MSG would be rolefishing his own role.

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"Setting the record straight" would be you either saying "Nope, I dropped the issue after the rule was shown to me" or "Yep, I kept going after the rule was shown to me due to X." "I have no problem with modkills," while informative, is consistent with either of those statements, so it doesn't set the record straight.

Maybe the doc thinks that Greg's role is sketchy enough that he's lynchable without outright claiming. Or maybe roles really are totally based on who opens which door (maybe with town-scum variations depending on which alignment opens which door). In either case, there's no reason to expect a counterclaim. Moreover -- you want to lynch Greg, too, so I find your tone a little disingenuous.

I thought I remembered Greg was saying that he knew who Looker was (85%) rather than who the cop was (85%). Rereading Greg, I see that it was indeed the latter. MSG may well have been rolefishing.

Unvote

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^ Where did

that

come from? Are you referring to the fact that he's not currently voting?

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Good point about the effect happening in different circumstances both times, Greg. My critique that you should believe MSG more has just changed into a critique that you should believe MSG less.

Also, MSG should probably believe you less, but I think he's voting DJ by the last votecount.

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You've missed that MM (=MSG) also broke the alleged post restriction yesterday in the same way (messing up the quotes). The Mod didn't punish MM. He may just want to be consistent. MSG probably doesn't want to break the rule again because the Mod has by now clarified that MSG will be punished for breaking fake rules. MSG not wanting to break the rules again is null. It's possible that MSG received a warning and is not allowed to comment on it. (MSG: Please clarify whether you have received a warning if possible.)

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EBWOP: Oh, wait, I see what you mean. MSG wouldn't be any more worried about breaking the rule again if there were no difference in the enforcement of the rule. This means that MSG's worry must be due to changes in how the rule will be enforced. This means that the rule is probably fake.

Vote: molestargazer

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DJ encouraged MSG to break the rules again (presumably again via quotes), and the Mod clarified that breaking a fake rule would have the same penalty as breaking a real rule. MSG has not complied with DJ's request. This seems null unless you consider that the Mod's clarification only constitutes a warning if the rule is fake. Otherwise, it was just an answer to my question about fake rules. So lyingMSG (ironically) has something to fear from breaking his rule again, but truthfulMSG doesn't (on account of how the rule has been enforced in the past).

This assumes that the Mod will give a warning before modkilling and that MSG has not yet received a warning.

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I based it on my reading of this:

now mod ambiguously defends the claim but still seems to be shrugging off the infraction without so much as a warning. i ask msg to break the restriction again and he refuses. what is he afraid of? he hasn't even recieved one warning. what bastard mod would modkill without first offering a warning? certainly not someone as hot as zazie.

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If MSG's rule is real and neither MM's mistake nor MSG's mistake has brought a warning, I don't see why not, other than that it's against the spirit of the game. In that circumstance, the only reason not to is if there's reason to believe that MSG will be punished without a warning. It's also possible that MSG and/or MM received a private warning that they're not permitted to tell us about.

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If the rule were fake, MSG would probably be modkilled because the earlier warning about fake rules being treated as real rules would have served as a warning. This would be OK, because MSG would almost certainly be scum. If the rule were real, MSG would probably be warned, privately or otherwise. This would be OK, because warnings rarely hurt anyone.

Again, this doesn't work if the Mod doesn't believe in warnings or has already given a private one. It's also possible that the warning might be accompanied by a more minor penalty (e.g. loss of hypothetical PR abilities), but I figure that's a fair gamble.

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Yep; I suppose that's possible, too. But I'm getting antsy.

Kmd, DJ has expressed an opinion about how the Mod dealt with MSG's slip. What do you make of his opinion?

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Uhm... just using the first and second letter then?

No i believe i have to identify people based on actions instead of usernames

oops im not really allowed to have your name in the quote in the above post sorry

Yep; MM apologized, too. It could just be that Zaz is nice. I personally would've given at least a private warning, but maybe that's neither here nor there.

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DJ, if you were intending to imply something else by the passage I quoted, please clarify it. It seems like it was purely rhetorical if that's not where you were going with it.

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Well, if there was no point to the first part of your post, then it amounted to a lengthy defense of suspecting MSG's post restriction followed by a unrelated call to lynch Batt. That doesn't make sense to me.

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The hell? I'm quoting you. Not someone else. It should not be difficult or taxing for you to explain why you posted something. You might have said "I wanted to remind Batt why I suspected MSG." You didn't. Instead, you complained that the "whole situation is odd," which doesn't make any sense because we're talking about your wallpost. It may be odd to us, but it shouldn't be odd to you; you wrote it. When I didn't accept that and asked you again, you attacked me.

So, what, were you intending that we would skim the wallpost and ignore that its content has next to nothing to do with Batt, even though that's the evident purpose of the post?

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I asked because, much as I may dislike admitting it, I agree with DJ to an extent that the Mod's actions made MSG look a little guilty. I wanted to see if you were in the same position as me (i.e. whether you are ambivalent at best about DJ while agreeing with him on that point).

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I think Looker is lying because that's a long time to go without looking at a role. At any rate, I personally wouldn't have that much self-control. The only thing supporting the claim is that he claimed it at a time that wasn't very opportunistic; it's not clear what Looker gained by making the claim when he did.

why would she lie about it? That doesn't make sense, does it?

Yep, it doesn't make much sense. That's what I say in the last sentence.

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I think it's unlikely that MSG will be killed overnight. The rules stipulate that modkills end the day. This implies that the Mod is prepared to modkill during the day.

Don't forget about Kmd's gut on myko.

Zaz hasn't posted in over a week. : /

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We had him at L-1 forever, didn't we? We didn't lynch him because so many players need to be replaced. We don't have the manpower to lynch anyone (we need all but one of the active players, I think), so the day's gone on forever.

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^ Which two a-holes?

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Unvote, Vote: Gregory

It looks like that's L-1.

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your case amounts to: dj is scum. what he does is scummy.

that's just not much of a case.

Not to interject, but it's actually kinda a decent case. Players who do scummy things are more likely scum. You probably also recognize that you've said some scummy stuff, since you've personally OK'd a vig kill.

Granted, this may all be premature.

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Why does everyone take out the first e....

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Nope; never. People just keep making it so that I've cut up ice cubes with a knife or something.

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Why didn't you just claim Paranoid Doc? <_<

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If you'd accompanied it with some of that flavor you've now mentioned, then yeah, maybe. "Insane doc" usually means you kill your patients. It would've been one more piece of the puzzle that didn't quite fit properly.

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How would your role be useless? I'm assuming that was an answer to my question.

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This is very spooky. It seems like either the killing scum is an inactive/lurker player, or the doctor role passed on to another player. Or a roleblock, in which case someone has a good idea of who's scum. If there's another way I haven't considered, please let me know.

/drunkpost

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I'd be OK with a DJ or Looker lynch, I guess. Given the events last night, I think they're more likely scum than certain other players. Maybe I'll read over D2 again to make sure that MSG is the second-tier choice.

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The events I was referring to are Batt's alleged hide, which may explain the lack of kill last night, and Gregory's alignment, which I think make Kmd look good because he had many opportunities to shift his view of Greg due to Greg's behavior and have him lynched earlier. Kmd's absence yesterday was also reflected in his ability to mod Twilight mafia, so I'm inclined to believe that his relative lurking is pretty null.

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One strange thing -- why did Greg apparently know about the restroom as a hiding place on D1? Was he just guessing?