DHSDSM beta: Game Over.

[Ortohoops]

Vote: Zmd

quicklynch gogo

==========[]

[Frog Dodging]

Vote: zmd

I like the analysis of the lurking, particularly as regards to nyballs. They're very experienced players and it's unlikely scum would want to kill without their input.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Vote: zmd

I like the analysis of the lurking, particularly as regards to nyballs. They're very experienced players and it's unlikely scum would want to kill without their input.

How does your vote relate to the explanatory sentence below?

[ortolan]

vee want answers 2 399

[ortolan]

vant*

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

LURKED
5. Ojando Death the Hogfather Lurked from June 17-26
8. Ortohoops Lurked from June 12-24
10. PoketheAlpaca June 14-20, June 20-26
11. nyballosulgniirkps Pesco Light June 9-17 and June 17-26
14. Frog Dodging June 9-15, June 15-21

Pretty sure from 19 June to 23 June we were in twilight awaiting rule changes. I know we could post, but no votes counted AFAIK, and considering how much work goes into this game, at least prior to the rule changes, it seemed like a convenient time to relax for a bit while waiting for the rule changes.

I think these are going off my timestamps here, and I'm not entirely sure what timestamps this account has given me and Ojanen are in diff timezones. But yeah, there was a 3-4 day period there where we were in twilight.

But then what about the couple of days immediately before the kill?

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

vant*

Log in your hydra.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

why is Zmd town Zaphod especially in light of RW's flip?

He's not lurking. I like that in Zmd.

[Frog Dodging]

Vote: zmd

I like the analysis of the lurking, particularly as regards to nyballs. They're very experienced players and it's unlikely scum would want to kill without their input.

How does your vote relate to the explanatory sentence below?

I would have thought it was pretty clear that it didn't.

[Zmd]

Zaphod, if you are truly town, it's likely that JScope is scum.

Ok, here's an idea. DGB know that I'd never put one of these up by my own choice if I were scum and she were in the game because it screwed us over in Medeival. (Also gives my opinions for later use after I'm lynched)

SCUM LIST!

Likely scum:
Zaphod Beeblebrox
J-Scope

Next scummiest:
nyballosulgniirkps
Ojando

Neutral:
Ortohoops

Town Lean:
Frog Dodging

Town:
PoketheAlpaca
Zmd

Scummiest at the top, towniest at the bottom.

I'd be ok lynching Zaphod or JScope. I'd be willing to lynch ny. I could compromise on Ojando or Ortohoops if needed. I will NOT vote FD or PtA (or myself obviously).

Oh, and can I ask for the case against me now that I don't have to search through Walls-O-Text to find things anyone says?

[J-Scope]

I'd be ok lynching Zaphod or JScope. I'd be willing to lynch ny. I could compromise on Ojando or Ortohoops if needed.

Any new reasons? Can you re-list your old reasons?

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Vote: zmd

I like the analysis of the lurking, particularly as regards to nyballs. They're very experienced players and it's unlikely scum would want to kill without their input.

How does your vote relate to the explanatory sentence below?

I would have thought it was pretty clear that it didn't.

Yeah, that's pretty clear, however, I am incredulous that you'd vote one player without explanation, throwing in a random sentence that you don't follow through.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Ok, here's an idea. DGB know that I'd never put one of these up by my own choice if I were scum and she were in the game because it screwed us over in Medieval. (Also gives my opinions for later use after I'm lynched)

WIFOM! You are scum pushing the WIFOM card. Which you also did in Medieval, by stating that the zwet lynch was scum driven. Which it was, ALL the scum was on it.

Zaphod, if you are truly town, it's likely that JScope is scum.

Which contradicts:

SCUM LIST!

Likely scum:
Zaphod Beeblebrox
J-Scope

I smell a rat and I am ready to hammer you for it.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

TO restate.

I believe that Zmd is scum for throwing a false track (his scum list) which he probably designed to be especially misleading since he got caught by it in Medieval Mafia.

Another thing he did in that game was to participate in a full-scumteam Day 1 bus'ing of zwet. He specifically said that the zwet wagon was scum-driven (that's his attempt as scum to WIFOM the town).

I perceive another similar attempt to WIFOM us, this time, by providing a scumlist.

I am as certain as could be that Zmd is scum.

He must die.

Whoever is willing to put him at L-1, I will hammer.

[Zmd]

I'd be ok lynching Zaphod or JScope. I'd be willing to lynch ny. I could compromise on Ojando or Ortohoops if needed.

Any new reasons? Can you re-list your old reasons?

Anti-RW and quick to agree with what we thought was a catch.

Ok, here's an idea. DGB know that I'd never put one of these up by my own choice if I were scum and she were in the game because it screwed us over in Medieval. (Also gives my opinions for later use after I'm lynched)

WIFOM! You are scum pushing the WIFOM card. Which you also did in Medieval, by stating that the zwet lynch was scum driven. Which it was, ALL the scum was on it.

Zaphod, if you are truly town, it's likely that JScope is scum.

Which contradicts:

SCUM LIST!

Likely scum:
Zaphod Beeblebrox
J-Scope

I smell a rat and I am ready to hammer you for it.

First, when the hell is MS going to stop being so scared of WIFOM and call every little thing "OMG SCUM WIFOM"?

Second, no contradiction. IF you are town, JScope is likely scum. I personally have you as my top suspect, but I definitely could be wrong. So if I'm wrong and you are town, JScope is a good choice for a lynch.

TO restate.

I believe that Zmd is scum for throwing a false track (his scum list) which he probably designed to be especially misleading since he got caught by it in Medieval Mafia.

Nah, it's actual suspicions.

Another thing he did in that game was to participate in a full-scumteam Day 1 bus'ing of zwet. He specifically said that the zwet wagon was scum-driven (that's his attempt as scum to WIFOM the town).

I was being a dick and showing Camn that my Gambit had merit and only failed originally because it was scum that I was looking at and Zwet was town there, so it worked. The whole scum team was on there. I meant to go back to it at endgame, but I think I forgot. But what's that have to do with this game. *Continues reading*

I perceive another similar attempt to WIFOM us, this time, by providing a scumlist.

So am I scum with you or JScope? lol

I am as certain as could be that Zmd is scum.

He must die.

Whoever is willing to put him at L-1, I will hammer.

Fair enough, this lynch was coming forever ago. I'm lucky as hell to still be alive.

Btw, my no claim was an attempt to draw a scum kill before. I'm just a VT. I posted here that I was going to try the Gambit for the first time. Did it in a game in SA shortly after that post and was quicklynched, so failed miserably. I guess it's a bad idea. Supposed to stop a lynch and draw a NK at the same time, but I didn't think it through.

For what it's worth,

Vote JScope

DGB seems to be honestly looking for scum. JScope seems happy to just ride through the game.

JScope is scum with ny.

[Adel]

Votecount as of post 414:

Zmd:

2

:Ortohoops, Frog Dodging,

Zmd

J-Scope:

1

:

J-Scope

Zmd

not voting:

8

:J-Scope, nyballosulgniirkps, Ojando, PoketheAlpaca, Zaphod Beeblebrox,

while 8 players are alive, 5 votes will lynch

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

First, when the hell is MS going to stop being so scared of WIFOM and call every little thing "OMG SCUM WIFOM"?

I know WIFOM that's planted by scum, from the regular day to day WIFOM. Your kind of WIFOM is scum-planted WIFOM.

Another thing he did in that game was to participate in a full-scumteam Day 1 bus'ing of zwet. He specifically said that the zwet wagon was scum-driven (that's his attempt as scum to WIFOM the town).

I was being a dick and showing Camn that my Gambit had merit and only failed originally because it was scum that I was looking at and Zwet was town there, so it worked.

No, zwet was scum, you were scum. What you say makes no sense and is in no way related to my postulate, which is that you like to plant WIFOM as scum.

Such as declaring that the zwet wagon was scum-driven.

When zwet was scum, and being bus'ed by his entire scum team, including you.

Btw, my no claim was an attempt to draw a scum kill before.

I'm not buying that. It was a soft fakeclaim. Otherwise, wou would in fact have been killed for it.

DGB seems to be honestly looking for scum.

And I honestly found some! YOU!

[Zmd]

I know WIFOM that's planted by scum, from the regular day to day WIFOM. Your kind of WIFOM is scum-planted WIFOM.

Nah, my WIFOM in this game was trying to make scum think I was a big scary power role. XD

No, zwet was scum, you were scum. What you say makes no sense and is in no way related to my postulate, which is that you like to plant WIFOM as scum.

No, the scum team was me, Rogue (Shea), Scot, and Hascow. Zwet wasn't part of it.

I do like to plant WIFOM as scum though. Let's look at the same game. I successfully connected myself to Yos, one of the towniest players in the game, which led to him being vidged, I believe. Tried to connect myself to Camn, Tajo, and Farside as well but wasn't quite as successful.

Such as declaring that the zwet wagon was scum-driven.

When zwet was scum, and being bus'ed by his entire scum team, including you.

Actually, I was making a true statement. Zwet was town and his wagon was scum driven.

I'm not buying that. It was a soft fakeclaim. Otherwise, wou would in fact have been killed for it.

I was too likely of a lynch target for scum to kill me. And if I was soft fakeclaiming, wouldn't I have claimed for real now instead of claiming vanilla (OMG WIFOM!)?

And I honestly found some! YOU!

Sorry to disappoint you, but according to our Role PM, we are town.

[populartajo]

Pokerface and myself plan to post something tonight.

In the meantime, I just would like to point out that I dont like this KMD/DGB conversation at all.

At all.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Actually, I was making a true statement. Zwet was town and his wagon was scum driven.

My bad, I'm confusing this with another game (Lynch All Lurkers) where zwet was bus'ed Day 1 by his whole scumteam. Except for this detail, my conclusion remains.

[Zmd]

Heh, I wasn't in that game.

Interested to see what Tajo doesn't like.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Heh, I wasn't in that game.

I know that. You were in Medieval where you spread the joy of scum WIFOM quite freely.

[J-Scope]

@Mod: I think the vote count needs correction.

ah, I see the mistake. Thanks. ~Adel

Anti-RW and quick to agree with what we thought was a catch.

That's about me? Since when has my suspicions of RW and his suspicions of me meant anything alignment-wise to you?

I have you and RW as my top two choices, so yes, I think the chances are high that at least one of you is scum. Not because of your suspicions on each other.

This looks like backtracking.

And that was a catch on RW when he suspected someone he saved for not dying. Well not a RW-scum catch but still pretty fishy. So what does quickness have to do with it if I already had a case to lynch the guy?

DGB seems to be honestly looking for scum. JScope seems happy to just ride through the game.

How is that?

[nyballosulgniirkps]

@nyballs: Is ZMD still your top suspect? How much of it is this reason:

Top two candidates on my list right now are Raging Wishbone and ZMD. Both made the ridiculous attempt of painting Frog Dodging as possessing confidence that they wouldn't die by taking their post out of content.

Yes. I still find the attack on Frog Dodging to be incredibly scummy, regardless of the fact that Raging Wishbone, in their deranged state of mind, clung to it despite being town. There are other things, though, the main point which comes to mind being his complete detachment from the game earlier on, though that point on its own doesn't hold as much weight in my opinion because of the mechanic that previously governed the game.

Vote: Zmd

This concerns me mildly because I feel that Zaphod is trying to draw attention to the fact that she is not paying attention to shaft.ed. People should naturally be concerned when a player ignores another player, so you’d think said player would not want to make it known they are doing a suspicious thing by ignoring another player. And that other player flipped scum.

While it's legitimate for you to believe this, I have seen, in other games(from town DGB at least) this apparent outspoken ignorance to what seems obvious occurrences in the game. That's not a point in their favor but rather a lack of a point against. That said, the inconsistency in Zaphod's attacks leave me unsettled. I don't really think their interaction with Trotsky is very telling.

11. nyballosulgniirkps Pesco Light June 9-17 and June 17-26

<...>

It's possible that some players didn't post under their hydra, let THEM show that they weren't lurking during the intervals stated above. If they do I'll remove the name from the suspicion list.

I like the analysis of the lurking, particularly as regards to nyballs. They're very experienced players and it's unlikely scum would want to kill without their input.

A quick search will reveal that I was present and accounted for on the site during both of those two intervals, and on several occasions. My partner(springlullaby), however, was not... As long as one of us was, though, I think that renders the argument null.

Town Lean:
Frog Dodging

Town:
PoketheAlpaca
Zmd

In light of the two serial killer flips, why do you only put Frog Dodging in the "Town Lean" category?

JScope is scum with ny.

Fuck. What gave us away?

[PoketheAlpaca]

Giving you guys the heads up in case you didn't already know the info. I pokerface have had some pretty shitty access the past month. Recently bought a new house of my own. I have spent alot of time filling out paperwork and or packing. ATM I am waiting for the people at utility departments to get their act together. Also waiting for a wax seal under the toilet to get repaired. Can't really move in if I can't use a bathroom. So I haven't had much time for access the site wear I am living at right now and posting at work not something I like doing in games.

After RW's flip I'm not 100% sure what to think of Zaphod and ZMD. I was certain RW was scum and that he wouldn't be paired with either of them. Since RW was town that's off the table. RW is gonna need to explain why they protected and attacked the same guy when the game is over. That made no logical sence. I might take some time to reread ZMD and Zaphod before that fiasco again but there are some comments/questions I have for them right now

@Zaphod,

Deep south format dictates that scum can day talk amongst themselves at any time. Your scum must be lurking case is based on the idea scum didn't spend much time organizing the yos kill. Everybody has been posting at least somewhere on the site if not in our game, even I sneak some MD and GD posts while at work. There doesn't seem to be any way you can really tell who is spending what time on a scum action based on just our game postings

@ZMD,

some of your defense to the case on you yesterday was meta information. I thought you said something about Zazie always doing a giant catch up post whenever she comes back into a game. You've been talking to her it would appear and yet she hasn't done any of that. Also you said you don't play like this as scum. Something to extent of you believe you are better or more confident in pushing your suspicions as scum. So you are better at pushing cases on people when you already know the outcome and its effect on your faction. You have not be giving any real big or well thought out cases on other players. You aren't pushing but at the same time you don't really seem to be talking about or questioning your reads in the game that much. You mention what you read but you really don't go into detail why. Basically there isn't a great way for us to truly tell how certain you are of your cases without you talking about them. There is no way you can assert you are less or more confident, less or more scum, without reason. Either I am misunderstanding your defence or there seems to be a hole in it. I also rather dislike the idea of a defence based around "Oh I wouldn't do this as scum". You have not shown us any links or proof of that point and there is no way we can tell you aren't acting this way to specifically use your meta to your advantage. Also I like I said before that definatly seemed like a soft claim to me.

Zmd is barely under attack. He may be the first wagon of the day. But already he's throwing in the towel, refusing to claim, accepting his lynch,

but soft-claiming a power role in the hope that he'll be spared

without risk of being counterclaimed, or being accountable. And we are warned we won't get more at L-1 with everyone salivating to hammer. That's scumtalk.

Also, this is gonna piss some people off, but if I get near a lynch, I won't claim. Enough people see me as scummy that I can accept my own lynch instead of being lynched later when we have less mislynches availible to us. And if I were to survive the lynch, I have the scum WIFOMing over my role and trying to decide if they need to worry about me or not. All I am going to say is that

if I am a power role, I have no valuable information to share yet.

That's as close to a claim as I am getting even if I am at L-1 with everyone else threatening to hammer. Take it how you will, but that's what I am doing and I'm set on that.

By saying 'yet' he is infering he could have some later which would be a soft claim and a way to bargin or ask to be spared later.

I'd be ok lynching Zaphod or JScope. I'd be willing to lynch ny. I could compromise on Ojando or Ortohoops if needed.

Any new reasons? Can you re-list your old reasons?

Anti-RW and quick to agree with what we thought was a catch.

I'm pretty sure there was alot of people who made a deal out of RW's claim not matching his play. You brought it up and I believe Zaphod, j-scope, myself, ortohoops and ojando all agreed with you.

I am also still suspicious of Ortohoops. The suspicion information I outlined for them being paired with SWSWC here:

Freaking huge post wrote:

1) Hoops "fluff posts" weren't fluff in the same way.
2) Hers didn't have the same frequency.

I'll admit there was some level of difference in terms of frequency and what the posts were about but I still saw that as somewhat fluff.

4) It was Hoops that did it, not me.

Ortolan and hoops have the same role and are the same player. This point is mute. You could just talk to your partner about it and see what they may be thinking. Have you spoken with them recently or are you pretty much playing the game all by yourself now, kinda what Jahudo is doing in terms of J-scope?

Re-reading Hoops early posts I think they were a

bit deliberately abrasive

and maybe not well thought-out because of the attacks they could leave us open to. I don't see how they could have a scum agenda behind them though, she is drawing a lot of attention to us by both her comments and by the way she is posting in light of the rules.

Is this in cocern to what could be seen as fluff or is this in regards to how she thought scum might avoid posting fluff at all costs? I'm not sure which of those you perscieve as diliberatly abrasive nor do I understand why you think it was dileberately without a context clarification.

Assuming you are discussing how she thought scum would avoid fluff earlier on, the only scum agenda I could percieve there is that by getting townies to attack in the direction of non-fluff posters constantly, players may feel encouraged to post often as a result to avoid attack. This would length the thread/game and help the scum. It is a bit of a complicated agenda though so if she is town she unlikly considered this as a possibility. The alternative to this possible agenda is that she truly thought A&B was scum for avoiding of fluff and pretty much the entire wagon on A&B didn't see it as that from the cases laid out. This line of thought brings 2 possibilities:

1.

Hooplas suspicions of A&B weren't genuine. Her case was crap opposite of why A&B was attacked. She wanted to attack and get rid of A&B without going against her own already outlined views because of how that may draw suspicion

or 2.

She really didn't think things well through enough as you suggest.
hmm... I guess I can see how B/your defense is a viable answer there then since I believe Tajo was not thinking or paying attention to either game when he made identical posts in both games in the same timeframes as I ponted out earlier.

Check the time stamp and words of these posts from our game
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 63#1642063
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 08#1645208
and compare them to these posts from the alpha game
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 65#1642065
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 06#1645206
Tajo was clearly under the wrong impression that these games were the same. He has to treat and learn from both of them and he should now have learned from these mistakes with recent postings not being of the same manner.

So I guess I will accept your defense for ONLY that part.

_________________

CONECTIONS SECTION START

3) You were actually attacking other people strongly for doing it while doing it yourself.

Rewind, you are the one I am accusing of doing this. You attacked me first for the fluff and I responded saying that you had done a type of fluff aswell and thus you were not blameless.

My response to this
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 95#1669295
I wasn't attacking ortohoops for lack of content but attacking them primarily for their logic.

They said our wagon was oportunistic and that scum wouldn't post fluff; they helped lynch A&B with that attitude. They said my wagon was originally oportunistic and scum would avoid fluff; now they are on our wagon and say scum would do fluff. They said we fluff posted; Hoops did some too.

Basically they are going back on some key points of their logic as well as commiting things they once deemed wrong. I see that as hypocracy.

odd, I'm just now realizing that the given link there was something said by SWSWC and I said that in response to how they percieved I was attacking you.

PtA attacking Ortohoops for lack of content was amusing. Pot meet kettle.

<snip>

PtA is self contradicting with his long post saying they think Zaphod is scum, rather strongly, but landing a vote elsewhere. Also interesting that PtA's attacking Ortohoops for being hypocritical is itself hypocritical. Would you mind self voting?

What is said here by SWSC is an attack of us(PtA) on the grounds of our ortohoops suspicions. This can be consider an awkward response or bad defense of ortohoops in the terms of how SWSWC later looked at ortohoops in that same post.

Not really liking Orto's defense that "my hydra partner did it!" in regards to the three fluff posts PtA pointed out.

You and your hydra are the same player in this game. That's a BS defense. I do agree however that some of those "fluff posts" were direct replies to questions asked by other players.

Because they actually give credit to some of our(PtA's) suspicions on Ortohoops. I am greatly considering the possibility you(ortohoops) are scum with SWSWC because they seemed to defend you from some logic and then imediatly attack you with it. I think they may have been confused on whether to defend or distance from their scum buddy there pending how other players may view the case on you. By being in between like that they could defend or bus you without reprecussion as they would have the option to be on either side.

The same Back and forth attitude of SWSWC not knowing how to act around orto scum can also be seen here:

SWSWC's view of you here:

Orto

Your back and forth with Yos is stifling game conversation. While I feel your points are valid, you're sidetracking discussion which is antitown. I also don't like that you feel the need to reply to every single point against you. Do you still find PtA most likely scum? If so is Yos a likely buddy or a misguided townie?

Orto scummy here.

SWSSC agress that he has valid points but also he is called antitown.

The last two questions feel fabricated.

doesn't sit well we me or tajo

That's great. Why?

All that I've said above is pretty much the why. SWSWC was fairly back and forth with their view of you. One moment they agree and defend you, the next they attack you and call you antitown. Its practically wishy-washy and I can see SWSWC-scum being that way about a possible scum buddy like you.

CONECTIONS SECTION END

<snip>

I disagree with the conclusion because I disagree with the premise that "there wasn't much of a case". FYI I have played several games with rofl as town previously- Lynch All Lurkers, Hunchback of Notre Dame and RealTime Mafia - in all he was extremely aggressive. I also saw a bit of a game where he was an SK which he got nominated for a scummy for, perhaps won it but I can't recall how he played that game. Anyways, in this and Alpha he played totally different (granted it's only one half of the hydra); which is why he got vigged in that and lynched in this. I have also seen him comment that he finds it harder to play as scum. Essentially it's very hard to fake such aggressiveness which is a stalwart of his town play, when scum. I don't actually think you're scummy for pushing this argument because it's counterintuitive anyway (and it's the same thing PTA attacked you for on A&B) and you're drawing attention to yourself by brazenly saying "I wish I was on this wagon, I did have a gut read on rofl but the people who did vote him are opportunistic scum". I do however think a position on the wagon is a null-tell if anything.

What you say here seems confusing to me. Are you saying you believe my case on Zaphod trying to come off like everyone else is weak? That you think Plum was not faking or gloating?

I have seen Roflcopter be fairly agressive as town many times. And I actually read the game where he was SK and nommed for a scummy. He did not win a scummy but I did support his nomination. He was actually fairly agressive as SK in that game.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8269
I would guess because he still needed to find and eliminate the other scum group. Why such agression did not carry over to this game where he was also SK, I'm not sure. Other than that game and Alpha/Beta, I have not seen Rofl-scum. I voted rofl over his failure to claim and submissive give up additude. I thought he was scum with SWSWC and that he had given up so I was happy to drop the hammer on that. What do you think of this reasoning? What do you recall of the main reasoning given by Frog Dodge, nyballs, RW? Basically does anyone other than ZMD come off as scummy to you?

hasn't really been refuted or acknowledged by them since I made the case

PTA: I (ortolan) am playing this game solely at present, Hoops left us open to attacks at the beginning of the game (albeit ones which aren't warranted); because they could be spun as similar to fluff posts

Again, you guys have the same role. Don't make excuses or say poor me. Deal with it head on by explaining or rationalizing what you can.

Yes, I think your case on Zaphod trying to come across like everyone else was weak.

Doesn't say why

Yes, not only Zmd comes across as scummy but RW

now.

The question was a

then

question not a

now

question

Because they've claimed to doctor someone they tried to paint with suspicion for not being night-killed. I also see little basis for their claimed protect on PTA. Thus I am ready to lynch, simply waiting PR resolution a la PTA's 362.

They acknowledge everything except the conections coments and don't ever really go into great detail. Like Yos2 had pointed out, Ortohoops didn't imediatly acknowledge the flip of SWSWC like they might have expected it to be scum. I think Ortohoops may be distancing or ignoring the affairs between them earlier because he knows he is conected to scum.

I did speak with tajo yesterday via pm about his earlier comment. I asked him what he didn't like about the back and forth between ZMD and Zaphod. He told me he felt that part of it was coming accross as though it was forced. He said he'd try to outline his thoughts to me later when he got out of the office. I am yet to here back from him since so I guess he'll show me and or the rest of you guys what he means soon enough.