DHSDSM beta: Game Over.

[J-Scope]

Pesco, why are you voting a non-threat? You should be voting for scum, like this:

Vote: Pesco Light

[J-Scope]

I have no reads on hydra's... I can't even figure out who most of them are XD

[J-Scope]

@K-Scope: make sure we’re posting in this account. I fear the wrath of the mods.
I support our vote on PoketheAlpaca; pressure is good, especially on the Alpaca half.

His post 28 and 48 are, to me, unnecessary, and just look like a way to avoid looking like the least posting lurker, but it’s still lurking if there is no content. Post 50 looks like a lot of fence-sitting and recap without analysis; just vibes that don't include director commentary.

9. Jscope votes Pesco for voting the mod. protown vibe.
21. Trostsky feels relaxed.
2. Raging Wisahbone is again trying to break a game.
27. Yep, trotsky feels town.

Are these posts the only reasons you labeled Trostsky, RRBone, and Jscope as town at the end of your post? What made you place those three names and not Pesco who you also gave a pro-town vibe in the beginning but not the end?

Also yeah, explain why you paired DGB and hoopla like a hydra?
----------------

Re: Incamnito’s Post 52 – Was that whole list basing scum primarily on the number of posts they had? You vote for Hogfather because he only had 1 post and you claimed Trotsky looked town because he had a lot of posts. What about the content or lack thereof, how much did that factor into these opinions:

8. Ortohoops - a whole lot of nothing here. leaning scum.
10. PoketheAlpaca - Yay, you are doing stuff! Probtown (see #4 above!)

---------------

Why has apples and bananas wagon died? Because they decided to try to look like they're playing the game? All they did was agree with Yosariwen's point and hide behind them. Agreeing is fine. Wagoning is fine. No original thinking = scum.

The stall looks normal to me and I don’t think it was scum driven. It looks like the motive for so many votes there was to get A&B to talk, not to expose guiltiness.

I think the Alpaca wagon is similar but there’s more to question, and a few sentences that don’t add up, so I likes it more.
---------------

I'm going to Vote: Apples and Bananas on a gut read.

Any reason why you don’t think the A&B wagon was opportunitic where the Alpaca wagon was? How strong a gut read can you get from a player with 2 posts?

[J-Scope]

@Incamnito: If you've been reading the vote counts carefully enough you would know that only votes made in Hydra accounts will count.

But I fear the unvote wouldn't count under my other account!

If you felt this way you would also feel that K-scope's vote wouldn't count, which means A&B wasn't at L-1, which means you didn't have to unvote.

But if you were unsure, you were unsure.

------------------

My main point is I don't think scum would blatantly draw attention to themself in such an obvious way - or rather, I don't think those spam posts were intentionally made to waste posts, when a recharge target is so far off. There is little to no scum motivation behind it.

In fact I'd suggest scum would more likely be the players most wary of this infraction. It's a simple way for them to sit back early and jump on someone for fluff posting, knowing that the town is paranoid of this. And, I think A&B is most guilty of this crime.

That’s a good point. I still want to see better from the Alpaca pair but I see what you mean. Until A&B looks pro-town the pressure is justified in my opinion. I'd throw ZMD into that pile too.

I’m thinking town when I read Frog’s post 73. He’s using his post effectively to pressure a lot of people and really make them answer. He looks more pro-town so far.

Alright, I'll start here with an mild FOS for everyone accusing me of lurking except for incamnito. I've been V/LA, and you should all have known this.

You are two people though so where’s your people?

Death doesn’t give anything new in post 75 but that’s what you can expect from someone coming back from V/LA in a 4 page game. I don’t have a read on him.

[J-Scope]

[quote="Incamnito"]Do you, the J of J-scope disagree with KaleiÃ

[J-Scope]

That aside, A&B, what exactly did youhope to accomplish with that post?
Were you trying to prove that you have read the game?
Because I see a lot of "PBP", and not so much "A".

QFT.

31 - Strawmans my argument about heads vs hydras, and votes me for it, even though he claims to have a "gut scum read" on a RW post. FoS: Pesco Light

Is that really a strawman? He’s saying that you should be able to comment on whatever your other half said, which still allows the other half to enter in later and comment in their own words.

It sounded like you were originally trying to avoid having to make any acknowledgement for something your other half said. Scum would love to be able to get away with that; putting all the scumtells on one half but trying to keep the other respectable and the one you vote for or not.

68 - Explains that he thinks wasting posts isn't scummy, and that Scum actually probably won't do it...WHAT? I think he knows exactly if the Scum are or aren't wasting posts.

Do you have a different theory?

90 - Thinks I'm Scum since Scum haven't killed someone to try and kill me, despite the fact I think I'm off of L-1.

True, I don’t think that at any point you were in that danger, so it cannot be proven that you are scum because of that majority count that would affect your lynch.

[J-Scope]

I think more likely SK, but as long as you kill whoever we tell you to I think we'll be better off keeping you alive for now.

I think that’s a terrible idea. As long as an SK is alive they will try to win as themselves; they can’t win as town. If you think someone is SK you lynch them: no excuses!

Apples and Bananas is SK. He wouldnt bring the possibility of being a SK if he were a vig.

I agree with this point.

So either he kills someone acting very pro-town that is pro-town and we have to kill him later because he's hurting our chances; he kills someone acting anti-town that ends up being pro-town and that's not good because scum have better odds; or he actually manages to find scum and we either risk keeping him and his kill around until the three mafia are found and the game officially ends or the game continues and we have to kill him anyway or risk losing to him. Too many risks that we can avoid now.

And this isn't conclusive but A&B has been at L-1 for a while and no one has been killed to force a lynch with 7 votes. But there could be alot of reasons for that.

I'm ready to hammer.

Incamnito, is there a good reason for us to know who he targeted?

[J-Scope]

Why Frog Dodging? Was this before you had made a second post? You FoS'ed several people but never FrogDodge. You even had this to say about him:

73 - Very nice, concise, post which sums up their views in the past page or so. This is what the Town should strive for all posts to be, in my opinion.

I don't like the fact that you had made a kill before you had made any sign of public scumhunting.

I guess it doesn't matter. We'll either trust you or not when we find out what you are, but this looks like more evidence of scum.

unvote;
Vote: Apples & Banana

[J-Scope]

From the mod's twilight post I took it that Frog wasn't going to die. It's possible there was a protection or a block.

I don't disagree with Frog Dodging's widespread complaint that this game has low contribution and people generally acting quiet.

nyballs: Have you finished reading? Where are you?

Zaphod: Why are your posts so short? That looks more like DGB style than Plum style. Has Plum said much?

PokeAlpaca: Post in your hydra account! Your last official post was April 28. In that post you thought DGB Hoopla was scummy. Based on your PbPa I assume you meant Zaphod (DGB-Plum), but you really need to clarify and elaborate your position on those two separate hydras. I also want to know if both of your heads agree or disagree on this stance.

Yosariwen: Where are you and what are you thinking? Most of your contribution is to say how we should approach this game with a good balance of avoiding fluff and lurking. So what do you think of what's happened in the 5 days since you've been missing?

Dude, who did we vote for? Read much? We discussed it and agreed it was a terrible idea and vote for A & B!

Which is good. I wanted to add my own 2 cents since I've played a game where we debated whether to use an outed SK as a Vig or kill him.

[J-Scope]

Mod: Incamnito needs a good prod too.

PTA is extremely scummy. His first two posts are ok but when you get to page 2 he starts to get really scummy.

You need to explain a few things:

1. Did the head that write post 58 also write 149? If so, why the hypocrisy?
If not, see questions 2 and 3.

2A. Were your 2 heads in disagreement when you called the PtA wagon opportunistic in post 58?
2B. Did the head that wrote 58 talk with the other head before writing that post?

3A. Are your 2 heads still in disagreement over the PtA wagon when you wrote post 149?
3B. Did the head that wrote 149 talk with the other head before writing that post?

Post 50 is PBPA. I usually find these completely useless and irritating to read when they're done without quotes. I additionally dislike this post because it's mostly IIoA- largely a description of the posts rather than analysis or an expression of an attitude towards the relevant players.

Yes I think it is largely IIoA too. On one hand there hasn’t been many people to analyze those posts and they were early posts that did not say much. On the other hand, if you are going to give something the town already knows, you are not scumhunting. It is a very weak post that does not explain how the reads got made.

He doesn't take a strong stand on anyone and fails to change his vote from the random phase,

which is ironic because it's still on Trotsky, the very player he criticised someone else (Zaphod) for voting in his PBPA.

Can you re-phrase the bolded part of this sentence? I'm not sure I know what posts your talking about.

Saying you find A&B scummy now does absolutly nothing. Its just a pathetic attempt to look like everybody else.

I agree that it does nothing to help them or the relevant discussion but I don't think it's a scumtell. The whole post looks like a big stream of consciousness to catch up to the present, like the catchup post of someone who replaced in.

They have agreedwith others/wagon jumped at times convienant to when others have been pressuring them.

Why don’t you think DGB would do this as town? I think she’s normally a free voter. The first six posts were a little extreme; some had a joking attitude or the intention of prodding a lurker, but none looked like they were trying to hide the fact that they were jumping on a person. I think it’s probably just a personality of the players, not the alignment.

[J-Scope]

However PTA's constant diatribes about "fluff posting" become beyond hypocritical when they make not one but two completely useless posts on page 2, followed by a scummy PBPA.

Well, let us know if Hoops agrees with this statement or not.

[J-Scope]

Actually, I want to poke the alpaca too. Their last post was not the type of post I'd expect from town that is sorry about lurking and fluffing around. They did not elaborate on their suspects; their priority was to throw the suspicion on first and foremost. I want to see better explanations than what they gave if they are already calling for Zaphod and Orto quick lynches.

I also think that Tajo's voice is lacking in that post and he needs to defend his fluff more than PF does for him.

Also, why is Orto a better choice than Zaphod, PtA?

Vote: PoketheAlpaca

[J-Scope]

a)really really hate the situation of changing acounts to post

I don’t think there is a penalty for posting in your main account, so perhaps it’s not a big deal but the idea is to communicate with your teammate. (obviously I’m failing at that myself, but c'est la vie.)

Mod: Is there a penalty for continual posting in one’s regular account?

b)a big part of my scumhunting powers was to use meta on people I know but sometimes this hydra situation wont let me eavluate who is posting what

How many people could you meta here? How would you give equal attention to the people you didn't know? For instance, I don’t think I know you well enough or you me.

My reads are there and as you and many here know, I scumhunt by POE and gut.

What’s POE?

[J-Scope]

The cool side of J-Scope is going to get back into this game asap.

[J-Scope]

Yosariwen last posted when they were still alive in alpha. What gives?

Zaphod looked like they were coming back in a pro-town way with their last post but that was almost a week ago.

Same with Frog Dodging but I thought they’ve been very town with their opinions and analysis. They seemed to put a lot of thought into analyzing posts but they’ve been gone almost a week too.

Trotsky needs to post again too. I don’t think they’ve done enough to warrant a solid read. It’s all early pressure on A&B that was good and all but doesn’t mean they aren’t scum themselves. They need to show they know the rest of the thread.

Out of the lurkers I think Yosariwen's absence looks the most questionable. Does anyone know if meta or V/LA apply here for them?

Not really liking Orto's defense that "my hydra partner did it!" in regards to the three fluff posts PtA pointed out. You and your hydra are the same player in this game. That's a BS defense. I do agree however that some of those "fluff posts" were direct replies to questions asked by other players.

I agree here and would apply that same principle on the PoketheAlpaca hydra when they explained that the one half of the hydra looking hypocritical (tajo) is not the one that made the accusation on fluff posts (pokerface). They are playing as one and should demonstrate that they are on the same page with how they are playing and judging others.

It's possible that your partner will say something and you don't know why they said it or you don't even agree with it. I agree that it isn't a major issue though as you can easily say "I don't know why my partner said that" or "I disagree with my partner."

Why are you talking to someone that replaced out, like, over a week ago?

I disagree to an extent. Scum will still want to rush things a little. I expect to see a mix. Scum who are trying to sneak in extra posts and scum who lurk.

Is that disagreeing with the essence of what Ortohoops said though? That scum would jump on someone for fluff posting?

Scum are Ortohoops, Trotsky, and Death The Hogfather.

You gave scumpoints to Trotsky and said Ortohoops was opportunistic, but you didn't mention Death the Hogfather in that post. How is he scum?

[J-Scope]

I think Ortohoops makes a good defense for Hoops early suggestions on approaching the game (mostly posts 68 and 98) are similar in attitude with early opinions made in alpha. I think it could be a way of just getting into the groove of participating in both games so at worst it’s a null tell and at best looks pro-town.

Can we try to make somewhat more compact posts? I feel that this may have a negative impact on some players, given that alpha had its fair share of lurker lynches. I definitely prefer walls of text to one-liners but we’re also only on page 8.

Also, I want to warn people about something I didn’t get a chance to reveal in alpha. I faked those screencapped PMs and QTs. It only took a few minutes and I know at least one other player that can do the same (cough kison cough). So basically I’m thinking we should not rely too heavily on that mode of reveal.

On a side note, if we could get together a second lynch today (that is, before end of page 12…

Basically, you want to lynch twice within the next four pages, and "want to get a bandwagon going quickly here.”

Yes, I would like to. Of course, lynching scum is more important then lynching quickly.

Wait, do you want 2 additional lynches in this action phase or 1 lynch, being the second lynch in this action phase (after A&B)? Post 179 read like you wanted 2 total but 185 reads like you want 3 total.

PoketheAlpaca (PokerFace+populartajo) : Along with the other things that have been pointed out, possible link to Raging Wishbone, in this post where he defends Raging wishbone.

You've actually entirely misinterpreting this, because PTA was not defending RW at all, but actually trying to argue against our point that RW wanting to keep the SK/vig alive was a town-tell.

I understand why he looks suspicious, and I continued to point out scumtells in the post I just made. However, if he was scum, I would kind of expect the wagon to not feel quite so easy and unopposed.

@Yoswen: Do you think that RW looking scummy and there being a supposed connection between PtA and RW makes PtA look more scummy? I don’t see concern in how smoothly the PtA wagon gained attention, but I do share the concern of teams that are not commenting on the wagon.

And what I explained was the feel I get from the postings. Call it gut if you want but DGB is not someone who strays away from a challenge or easily follows a group.

I can agree with this concern. I’ve always seen DGB speak very freely but after the first few pages she’s been quiet. Just recently Zaphod came back from V/LA, so maybe that explains some of the absence.

I never said one was better than the other. What I said back there was Let's lynch them both.

Okay that still sounds odd to me. You would have to lynch one first, and judging by your vote I’d assume you wanted Ortohoops first? Would a particular role flip have given you pause to lynch Zaphod or consideration in some other route?

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Read Trotsky/Korts/Rofl in isolation and tell me they aren't scum.

I did and I wanted to share my results

2 of the Korts posts are filler. 174 tells us he hasn’t read since his last post, 7 days earlier. He should have waited until he had read and then posted, but at least he’s being honest I guess. 184 could have been an impulse but it was unnecessary.

Korts 183 has a decent vote on Zaphod. I don’t think it’s a hop but rather a legit starting point to look at someone. The rest of the post I get the sense he’s not on the same page with rofl and still not fully in the game.

The rofl post I don’t agree with trying to direct a kill on someone you think is scum, but his stance could just be a tactic difference and null tell. Just a question on Zaphod and all together an unimportant post at a time when other people were posting 1 or 2 lines at a time.

Tortsky has had about 10 short posts (again it seems okay since other people were doing it) that make me think they are posting in the moment but not looking at the big picture. Most of the posts were in April, so early on, which could explain why there’s no big picture.

I thought it was funny that one head muscled out the other on his A&B vote choice over PtA, but I don’t see that mis-communication as clearly scummy. I think scum would more likely want to appear cohesive.

I’m not sold on the Trotsky case but I really can’t say they are town. Need to hear more from them.

[J-Scope]

I’m not sold on ZMD’s motives on taking interest on a non-wagon being scummy yet. I want to see how he reacts to multiple people calling out his cautious play. I do not like that he has virtually ignored PoketheAlpaca, but I’m not sure that affects how I see where he’s putting his attention instead.

Also PoketheAlpaca has gone missing this last week. I definitely want to see more of them.

However, what do you like about Trotsky's Zaphod case? There's nothing there.

I think it’s a legitimate case if they attempt to analyze Zaphod and explain how Zaphod ignored the A&B wagon and pushed another wagon with weak reasons. I thought they could legitimize their Zaphod case by explaining how these reasons were weak, we just need to see what they do when they catch up in this game.

---------------------------

Some thoughts on the Yosariwen vs Raging Wishbone argument:

I think Yos and Nuwen give legit reasons for voting RW in post 179 and then they vote with this disclosure:

Vote:Raging Wishbone, our biggest suspect after that (exausting) re-read and analysis. (Also, it actually took 4 AIM posts to send this whole thing to Nuwen for comment before I posted it, haha)

I don’t think they made it necessary here for us to see all of their private discussions on this topic. If they had a case that went beyond what they made public, they could have made that public on their own. There are going to be some debates on reads made in private.

RW comes back with a vote on Yosariwen that they want to call OMGUS but I understand it as a vote for meta reasons, though I think RW’s meta here doesn’t really apply because Nuwen did not do anything like she did in alpha.

I need to respond to a few posts but timing is of the essence on this one, since Yoso, is here ONLINE right now...please post your GOLLY 4 aim chats asap! Don't want to give you more time to try and fake them again. Wink

RW asks Yosariwen to release the AIM chat logs, which is now their second move to replay alpha (the first bringing up the meta). I don’t think they are going too far by asking for these logs; it sounds like a good idea to pressure Yosariwen into explaining their thought process.

Nuwen posts the chat logs that are still being deciphered like the Dead Sea Scrolls but basically downplays the logs usefulness to the group. I'd like to see RW analyze these logs before they draw too many conclusions.

RW comes back and I think they misrepresent the initial Yosariwen vote on them by saying this:

The fact and addition of needing to prove themselves by claiming they have 4 AIM chats that will "knock are socks off" seems completely scummy.

It looks to me like RW is trying to undermine Yosariwen’s initial vote on them by making it look like Yosariwen had acknowledged the chats as a justification for voting (which I don’t agree with) along with eventually releasing the chats as an offensive, instead of defensive, play, when it was clear that RW made them release the chats. RW’s conclusion that the situation was “completely scummy” here looks reactive and exaggerated.

In this debate Yosariwen looks town to me and RW could be scum. I need to look at all his posts in isolation, but when they refer to alpha to bring more emotion into their defense my scumdar pings loud and clear:

I will not FUCKING be crucified in this game the same way I was in the Alpha game for making a good choice on lynching scum!

[J-Scope]

Looking back at Sex with shaft.ed’s wife’s posts I don’t see PoketheAlpaca as a likely partner of them. Much of their post 164 was dedicated to building up a serious case on Alapca and they didn’t push the case on Trotsky nearly as far.

At this point I'm not liking Trotsky or PtA. I'd like more pressure on the former, but have a clearer read on the latter. So let's do both, we've got all they lynches we want.

This to me looks like an attempt to group the two together by saying he’d be okay with lynching both. But at the same time SWSSC only had a minor point about Trotsky while making a big case on Alpaca. I don't see them preparing to move off the Alpaca wagon with only a few pages left in the day.

Post 175 looks like an attempt to push the Alpaca lynch before the Trotsky lynch. Shaft.ed’s post 200 doesn’t change my opinion about how they were treating Trotsky or Alpaca. Therefore I think Alpaca is very unlikely to be a scumbuddy with Shaft.ed.

I need to see if anyone else interacted with shaft.ed but right now I’d be more confidant in a RW lynch than a Alpaca one. I'll probably vote them after a read of shaft.ed interactions and more looking at RW and Yosariwen's AIM chats. I don't like the Trotsky or Ortohoops wagon, and I don't think Yosariwen is scum. I'm still not sure about ZMD; they just haven't said or done enough.

unvote

[J-Scope]

Gee, J-scope, now that Alpha is over you can add in the details to your fake daytalk from that game, please do so....

You can't trust any of the PMs or QTs I made in alpha because they were fake, and I had faked the censored beta stuff too to make it look more realistic.

I didn't say anything substantial about beta in the QT because alpha was the main game at the time of my posts whereas beta was only around page 3. After about the first week I had accepted that K-Scope and I weren't going to be playing as one person so I didn't confer anything with him.

Here is the only post I mentioned beta though. It was the first post of the QuickTopic:

Hi. I realized that we should probably have some kind of private communication.

Let me know if I'm talking too much or looking too wishy-washy. There are some things that we should probably decide on together before we post. You can rein me in if I'm saying something stupid on alpha.

In alpha, I'm starting to pressure Ortohoops and I feel like an Apples/Banana vote or a Trotsky vote could be orchestrated. Pesco could be the biggest target now but I don't know if we should join that bandwagon now. We are already tied to them through Incamnito though. What do you think?

In beta, we need to post something but I can't think of a worthwhile thing to say.

Aww, look at me trying to setup a mislynch
That post was made April 28 which correlates to page 3 of beta. You can guess that I had been waiting for K-Scope to talk to me before I made anything more than a random vote, which is why my first substantial post didn't happen until April 29.

[J-Scope]

@RW: What are you looking for in this QT?

If anyone hasn't read the end of alpha yet, I faked a few QuickTopic entries to make me look town. Here is the altered QT:



And below is the original QuickTopic with all the pieces I used in photoshop:



You can see that Post 5 was used to remake Post 1; Post 7 was used to remake Post 3; Post 8 was used to remake Post 4.

Post 6 was a messup because I needed the darker background color for Post 3.

The black censors don't matchup because I wasn't trying to hide beta talk; I was trying to get the right post lengths and also because I had earlier used the excuse on RW and Ortohoops that I didn't want to post QT's because there was interchangeable beta talk. That was a lie, but what do you expect from scum?

Anyway, now that the magic has been revealed I don't think we can rely on screencaps because they can be faked.

------------------

I don't think FrogDodge is an SK. It seems probable that he was protected or the scummy A&B was roleblocked. A&B didn't have a reason to lie but I don't think occam's razor points to FrogDodge as scum.

I think RW is the best lynch right now. I gave my reasons in Post 210.

Vote: Raging Wishbone

[J-Scope]

@J-scope - I dont get it? You had an entire conversation by yourself or you just posted an entire fake daytalk to ruin any chance we had of catching anyone else?

What do you mean conversation by yourself? Everything after post 4 was made to help me win alpha. Posts 1-3 of the original QT were honestly trying to play with K-Scope. There never was beta talk with content and it wasn't supposed to line up to anything.

How did I ruin any chance we had of catching anyone else? What would we have caught them doing?

my scum hunting techniques may not be the best, but at least I am trying... you seem to just want to lynch townies.

I am not voting for you strictly you have the opinion that Yosariwen is scum. I am voting for you because you misrepresented why Yosariwen voted for you, and because you have brought emotion into your case from alpha which does not look like a scum hunting technique.

Are you saying that I want to lynch townies because I am voting for you? How do I know you are town again?

J-scope is giving me bad vibes. Not certain why he is focusing so much on his quicktopic thing - no one has argued with him, yet he keeps pushing it.

RW prodded me to reveal the QT in 3 separate posts. Do you think I am focusing more than was needed to by RW's requests? I did not intend to push anything; I think the discussion RW has carried over from alpha about QT's is unimportant.

Here is where he told me to post the QT:

Gee, J-scope, now that Alpha is over you can add in the details to your fake daytalk from that game, please do so....

Very cool Bro, please post a screencap, so we can match it to Alpha screencap?

@Ortohoops and JScope still waiting for your screencaps so we can compare them to the Alpha game.

----------
If RW isn't a viable lynch for today I would consider going back to PtA although they'd have to be an SK and I don't know how likely a second SK is anymore.

I don't really know how Zazier plays but I can see that she is very active in other games. I think more explanation is necessary on their activity level in this game.

I'd still like to see if Trotsky comes around and posts more. I feel it would be more of a lurker lynch on them right now.

[J-Scope]

@Mod: I should be voting for Raging Wishbone, not Frog Dodging

By the way, I'm confused by the second half of your sentance. We know a mafia person got daykilled, we know that it couldn't have been the SK who got lynched (because too much time went past), and we know that if there's a SK there can't be a vig, so there has to be another SK in the game, right?

You are right, shaft.ed’s killer would have to be a second SK and not a Vig. I can get on board with prioritizing the search for shaft.ed’s scumbuddies.

How much of SWSWC was Shaft.ed and how much was elvis_knits? I couldn't tell if e_k was contributing but I also don't know how either play. Does anyone know e_k enough to know if she would bus early on or maybe try to ignore scumbuddies?

I mean J-Scope did you post that quick topic to make fun of us all? You have 8 posts, you YOURSELF claim that is was original from Alpha, anyone reading the content can tell you faked it! I mean you "faked it so bad" it is hard to believe scum would make such a huge mistake twice?

No, I posted the QT’s because you asked me to and for no other reason. I was perfectly content with warning the group about how I won as scum in alpha so as to prevent scum from winning that way.

The QT posts 5-8 was not for K-Scope to read. They never existed until I made them to trick you. And I showed you the real posts 1-4 which I am saying are the real deal.

I did not screencap my original QuickTopic to prove my innocence to anyone. I realize that what I am now calling real could very well be another fake. You have to judge for yourself based on my complete game here.

At first glance I would assume that you meant to imply that there never was any daytalk, but then you clearly write in the "original" conversation with you and K-Scope it was different and explain EXACTLY where you change you and K-Scopes conversation to fit the Alpha game, hence there was an original conversation between you and K-Scope which lasted 8 posts... but what follows has been contrived! Anybody looking at it can tell it is fake. You follow up with a second post NOW and only now claiming it was never real... It is a complete contradiction.

I did not have a conversation with K-Scope that lasted 8 posts. Look at the timestamps and see where they correlate to the Alpha game. I’ll do it here:

Post 1 and 2 were made on April 28. Post 3 was made on April 29; Post 4 was made on April 30. So posts 1-4 correspond to action phase 1 and 2.

Posts 5 through 8 took place on May 12 which corresponds to our 3 person LyLo. It was during that action phase that I wrote those four posts and used photoshop to composite the content of Posts 5-8 onto the time stamps of Posts 1-4.

I feel like you are making this out to be a scumtell in our Beta game, when it clearly is only a tell for the Alpha game.

I still would like to hear everyone’s thoughts on the mechanics of this game in specific response to A & B claiming they tried to kill FrogDodge?

Maybe Frog Dodge is the SK, but right now that’s only one explanation compared to the possibly more explanations that deal with a potential RB/Doc power. I don’t think FrogDodge is scum but it’s something to keep in mind if we’re still looking for an SK and the possibility of a RB/Doc explanation isn’t there.

[J-Scope]

Whom I'm willing to lynch now (update it as you post):
1. Zaphod Beeblebrox (2) Ojando, J-Scope
3. Zmd (4) Ojando, Ortohoops, nybaloosulgniirkps, J-Scope
4. Trotsky(4): nyballosulgniirkps, ZMD, Zaphod Beeblebrox, Ortohoops
5. Ojando (1): ZMD
7. Yosariwen (1): nybaloosulgniirkps(?)
8. Ortohoops (1): ZMD
10. PoketheAlpaca (0):
11. nyballosulgniirkps (0):
12. Raging Wishbone (4): Zaphod Beeblebrox, Ojando, nyballosulgniirkps, J-Scope
13. J-Scope (0):
14. Frog Dodging (0):

You're not tunneling on me to the point of insanity. Therefore you are scum. Or maybe you'll start tunneling now, to fit that part of your town-meta more closely. And thus this game will become another hell whose end I will pray for.

If it "doesn't seem like me," well, too bad. It is me.

I don’t understand this and I don’t really believe it based on how Zaphod previously reacted to Trotsky’s accusations on them. If they didn’t think Trotsky was insanely tunneling, then it looks like they were faking outrage on them. Either way it looks like a lie to boost themselves against Trotsky.

I’d also like a ZMD lynch because of how they’ve ignored larger wagons in favor of making small points about inactives. I don't understand their case on Ojando, even though I'm guessing its their third choice and probably just a gut feeling.

I'm not so hot about a Trotsky lynch. They haven't been pro-active or pro-town but I think Zaphod and ZMD are better choices and they don't pair good with Trots.

So Kscope returned right before you won Alpha, are you telling me you had no communication with him/her?

I PM’ed him the other day and asked if he was going to start playing but I haven’t heard back from him yet.

[J-Scope]

@RW: I did get a response from him and it's a good enough excuse for me to believe it.

Why do you want a screencap of this? Why not just a bit o' text? I'll screencap, of course, but I'd much rather lynch you.

Mod: Can we get a vote count?

I don't like the modkill idea. This game shouldn't be too hard to catch up in if we can find good replacements.

Frog Dodge and Pokey Alpaca should add to the list of lynch candidates just to make it semi-official, and we should wrap up this lynch before the clock strikes 12.

[J-Scope]

Here is your problem and here is something EVERY OTHER TOWNIE HAS DONE and needs to ask themself? Isn't the first thing you do when returning from VLA to ask your PARTNERS opinion on the game?

It’s my secret shame that K-Scope and I are having marital problems. I wanted to go to counseling with him because he just won’t communicate with me! Then last week I saw him hanging around another forum. I think he’s cheating on me.

Actually I have no idea why K-Scope did or didn’t do something. I have never played a game with him before to my knowledge. How well is your experience with K-Scope?

Who has played with Kaleidoscope before and can tell me if he’s the time of player to leave for a month then come back and post without telling me?

The first thing he should have done is send you a pm to asky you to catch him up to speed...actually whether scum or Town.

So this tell isn’t even a scum tell? Are you saying that because K-Scope is a lousy partner I should die? I’m actually quite comfortable playing by myself and that was an option at the start of these two games. It doesn’t ruin my game experience. Does it ruin anyone else’s?

J-Scope is the best lynch due to his arugments on daytalk and his associations with sexed!

If that’s how you make associations (you claimed plural but I only see one post) with scum, then you should have looked at the rest of shaft.ed’s post.

RW For the love of God...see above. I'm getting a townish read off of RW for what it matters.

J-Scope Thanks for sharing the tidbit about falsifying logs. This is townie points for J-Scope. Although if scum, he might just not feel like being bothered to create fake logs Wink However, what do you like about Trotsky's Zaphod case? There's nothing there.

In both cases he told us a little thing he didn’t like, with your quote pyramids and my deceptive capabilities, but he also completed the read as more town than scum.

What is the difference between him giving me townie points and him giving you a townie read? You’re trying to create a double standard on a tell that does not have enough data points. Unless you want to come clean and reveal we’re both scum with shaft.ed.

[J-Scope]

I am very sure Trotsky is at L-1 (with votes from ZMD, Ortohoops, Frog Dodge, nyballs, and RW). That and page 12, and no other wagon being near L-1 (RW is L-3 I think) tells me it’s probably time for Trots to claim in his next post.

I don’t understand this:

a cursory glance up the page after this shaft.elvis death gives me a warm fuzzy about zaphod's chances of being a scumpartner.

Was this answered somewhere that I can't find?

Me and Ojanda agreed on the first thing we would do when we returned from vla with our partner.

I’m just speculating here but K-Scope probably hadn’t read anything when he thought he was going to return, and when he saw the walls of text he knew this game wasn’t his style, and he didn’t have time to read up, so he quit again. Maybe someone can confirm K-Scope's attitude towards walls of text.

Dude is tht your pic you looks like a wanna be band member for Modern English or the Cure... gah try harder there too.

It’s Kevin Bacon. My Jahudo avatar shows Kevin Bacon holding up a plate of crispy bacon. What can I say, I do what the GD memes tell me.

[J-Scope]

Now that the second SK is gone I'm having trouble finding room for Alpacascum; I still don't think he is mafia with shaft.ed.

RW is my top suspect and I'll re-present a case on him.

I'm pretty sure there's a lot of scum on Trotsky's wagon, because beyond gut reads, there wasn't much of a case, roflcopter's habit of lurking as scum gave him away.

Do you think the mafia went for the trotsky lynch because they believed in rofl's habit of lurking as scum? Why could that be more of a scum motive than a town one? Also, how many is a lot of scum?

paradoxically I'd be delighted to vote any player that is on it. How 'bout that.

I think you could be a little pickier. What about the 3 people not on the wagon, would you vote for any of them?

[J-Scope]

This was meant to be a speedy game so I think we need more motivation to pick up the pace, whatever the deadline may be.

[J-Scope]

Are we still in twilight?

Alpaca's post got me to thinking about that early SWSWC post too:

Not really liking Orto's defense that "my hydra partner did it!" in regards to the three fluff posts PtA pointed out. You and your hydra are the same player in this game. That's a BS defense. I do agree however that some of those "fluff posts" were direct replies to questions asked by other players.

I think shafted had motive to pressure scumbuddies in post 164 where he ended up voting Alpaca over a lot more points than he had for anyone else. The momentum he could have potentially given to a scumbuddy wagon was lessened by the momentum he created for Alpaca’s wagon.

He also suspected the dead SK’s a little bit but the only other living players he pressured was Kairyuu, who is now Ojando:

Don't understand why Kirayuu requires input from his hydra before posting. I realize you want to conserve posts but you seem to be able to post in other mafia games all by your lonesome. Even weirder that he's feinding worry about placing a vote during a phase where votes cannot be placed and no other players have votes on them even if they could. Possibly faked concern here.

The last bit is most interesting to me. Shafted implies that Kairyuu could be putting on an act, which sounds like a scummy act and not an anti-town act.

These are just small samples though so I don’t feel confidant in either hydra being more likely scum buddies with shaft.ed unless I can see them as scummy hydras in their own posts.

----------------------

There is another possibilities now in light of trotsky's reveal. He was SK that wanted Zaphod lynched after his death. Wanting Zaphod lynched after having lost the game as SK, means trotsky could have only wanted one thing there. He actually thought Zaphod was scum with SWSWC and if he(trotsky) couldn't win as SK, he didn't want Zaphod to win either.

I’m not sure I believe that motive because it had no effect on Trotsky. He clearly wanted to lynch Zaphod and I think he could have wanted that whether she was scum or town.

----------------------

Ojando, as scum, I am a better player. I am more confident in my actions. I know my plan and I go with it.

How is the following not being confident?:

Scum are Ortohoops, Trotsky, and Death The Hogfather.

Read Trotsky/Korts/Rofl in isolation and tell me they aren't scum.

I get that the first could be interpreted by us as a normal suspect list but you come off as incredibly confident and deliberate in both quotes. Where are you second guessing when people agree with you about Trotsky?

Suspects in order: RW, JScope, Ortohoops, Ojando.

What points of RW's do you agree with against me? I don’t recall you mentioning this before. Since RW and I think the other is scum, do you think that one or the other is scum? How likely is 1 of us scum?

I still like a RW lynch and I'll try to give all my reasons in a day or two.

[J-Scope]

Why I think RagingWishbone is scum
A report by J-Scope
3rd period scuminomics

This first part is rehash but I still think it is valid. Also note that they never commented on these thoughts when I posted them the first time:

I think RW misrepresented the initial Yosariwen vote on them by saying this:

The fact and addition of needing to prove themselves by claiming they have 4 AIM chats that will "knock are socks off" seems completely scummy.

It looks to me like RW is trying to undermine Yosariwen’s initial vote on them by making it look like Yosariwen had acknowledged the chats as a justification for voting (which I don’t agree with) along with eventually releasing the chats as an offensive, instead of defensive, play, when it was clear that RW made them release the chats. RW’s conclusion that the situation was “completely scummy” here looks reactive and exaggerated.

I think RW is trying to compare the situation to alpha, where YosNuwen was scum, without evidence to explain why the alpha meta applies.

I will not FUCKING be crucified in this game the same way I was in the Alpha game for making a good choice on lynching scum!

It also seems very early and unprovoked to use emotional words like "FUCKING be crucified", so I feel this could be a deliberate exaggeration to heighten the importance of the case through emotion as a possible motive.

--------------------------------------

Secondly, I feel that Raging Wishbone has treated his case on me in a similar manner. RW attacked me for my posting of quicktopic chats here:

I mean J-Scope did you post that quick topic to make fun of us all? You have 8 posts, you YOURSELF claim that is was original from Alpha, anyone reading the content can tell you faked it! I mean you "faked it so bad" it is hard to believe scum would make such a huge mistake twice?

This quote paints me in a bad light and does not acknowledge my side of the story that explained why it looked fake. It is misrepresentation to say I posted the QT’s for a reason on my own accord, because the only one that wanted the QT’s was RW himself:

@Ortohoops and JScope still waiting for your screencaps so we can compare them to the Alpha game.

Yeah, well qt aside, you are slipping under the radar once again like alpha.

This looks like an attempt to compare scum-alpha-Jscope with beta-Jscope without using any evidence, so I don’t trust the motive they had for bringing this up.

--------------------------------------

His next vote (post 267) raises some questions for me. This was the most tangible reason he gave:

J-Scope is the best lynch due to his arugments on daytalk and his associations with sexed!

The first part does not fit with what they had previously said here to end our argument on daytalk:

I am not completely convinced, however I buy enough of what you wrote to...

UNVOTE: J-Scope

And the second part, my supposed associations with shaft.ed, was not explained in that post. Most of 267 was about how K-Scope was a bad partner, but he doesn’t use it as a reason for voting, even though a skim read might suggest he thinks it’s a scumtell. That’s what it feels like to me:

The first thing he should have done is send you a pm to asky you to catch him up to speed...actually whether scum or Town.

And althought he did not explain why he thought I had associations with shaft.ed, I found what he probably meant and I see a double standard in his scumtell:

RW For the love of God...see above. I'm getting a townish read off of RW for what it matters.

J-Scope Thanks for sharing the tidbit about falsifying logs. This is townie points for J-Scope. Although if scum, he might just not feel like being bothered to create fake logs Wink However, what do you like about Trotsky's Zaphod case? There's nothing there.

In both cases he told us a little thing he didn’t like, with your quote pyramids and my deceptive capabilities, but he also completed the read as more town than scum.

He also hadn’t commented on those points I made from an earlier post so there they are again.

--------------------------------------

@RW: What scumtells do you still think are valid against me? Do you think anything looked scummy before but now you aren’t sure or don’t think is a scumtell?

Do you think shaft.ed’s post to me was any different than what he said to you?

Do you know why I talked to myself in my QuickTopic? Or is it just that you know I am capable of faking it so you think the new stuff could very well be fake too? If so, why ask for them?

Why did the argument about QuickTopics reappear as a reason for voting me in post 267 after you unvoted over that same argument in post 257?

[J-Scope]

What kind of gambit was it? How much of your play was a gambit?

I guess this was you way of ending the gambit:

This game is too hard, and trying to scum hunt and goad someone into a conversation ain't working; J-scope I was hoping you would bite, lol Bro... I kinda think you are scum but can't vote ya again....

So were you trying to find scumtells in my reactions? What does this say about the points you uncovered in the first place? I think they were not strong enough to stand on their own because some of it was just double standard and confirmation bias.

@J-scope - your post#322 was the most defensive post made this game based on my erroneous comments, gambit, jokes, sarcasm, ect to keep the game moving when it was dying....

Where are the jokes and sarcasm? I thought you were always pretty serious about wanting to lynch me.

I disagree about my case being OMGUS. I think the methods you used to scumhunt me were scummy and you still have not commented on large parts of them. So we don't have to end our conversation after all!

[J-Scope]

I know that ZMD is placing RW at or near the top of his suspect list right now but I can't tell if there is any reason beyond the voting analysis.

Post 305

Suspects in order: RW, JScope, Ortohoops, Ojando.

I think if I was going to vote (it's twilight, so won't bother), it would be for RW. I'd also be ok lynching JScope or ny.

Post 311

The other votes are scummy. Not voting is scummy
…
Put them together and ny/RW got scumpoints on both.

Post 321

I have you and RW as my top two choices, so yes, I think the chances are high that at least one of you is scum. Not because of your suspicions on each other.

We can see RW is now one of his top two choices but the only reason provided is that RW was on both the A&B and the Trotsky wagon but not the hammer vote or the vote directly after shaft.ed.

I can understand ZMD's opinion that a hammer could be done by scum or town because it takes guts and a good case on the voters part to hammer. I'm not sure a scum would try not to vote after a scumbuddy though; I've never thought about that as being something scum would avoid.

So I think the voting analysis is okay but not very strong reasoning. I'm not sure why it would be reasoning enough to vote when we're at day 3 in the game.

@ZMD: Is the voting analysis the only reason RW is on your suspect list? Why is RW higher than nyballs?

[J-Scope]

The new rules sound good to me.

Vote: Raging Wishbone

[J-Scope]

Walt and RR haven't posted in their normal accounts in a month. Are you guys still around for this game though?

spring hasn't been posting for a week but kison is active on his account. Can nyballs tell us where they stand?

Sando and ojanen are active in their regular accounts too. Can ojando give an update on where they stand?

[J-Scope]

Nice catch ZMD. I agree with them and Zaphod in saying that RW's claim of doctor does not add up.

VOTE: FrogDodge

Unless we can figure out if A&B was lying... I see no other reason he is not dead. I kinda would like to stick with Occams Razor.

If you were protecting Frog Dodge, that would be a good reason to guess why he wasn't scum killed by A&B, but you vote anyway to paint him as a SK. Why go so far as to vote and speculate that he's an SK?

------------------------------------

This is not emotional, I find very little within this game that could provoke a response such as you described. It is exaggerated to illustrate the importance of my reply.

I think adding swears in ALL CAPS to your attack draws the other players attentions to your case through emotion. They might subconsciously find your case more serious and obvious because of an unnecessary exaggeration. That's just how I saw it.

I'll concede that my lack of communication with my partner and his popping in and out throughout the game is anti-town on both counts. I only wonder if his flaking had more to do with the posting requirements of the game and not anything else. K-Scope likes the short 1-2 sentence posts after all.

@J-Scope - You may find my comments regarding Sex W/Shaft as a double standard, however I disagree. I find their comments regarding your "townie" alignment musch more proactive then those they made regarding us.

What is more proactive about it? That he said the words "townie points"? That sounds close enough to what you got: "townish read", so I think both of us could be tied to SWSWC in that way.

[J-Scope]

I’m not very gung-ho about a ZMD lynch. He brought up a valid point against RW when it already looked like RW was going to be lynched, which tells me ZMD was trying to make the best choice and not just save his skin in that instance. I still don’t understand why RW pushed FD suspicion but that’s discussion for post-game.

The reason I originally suspected him, that he focused on secondary discussions and ignored the larger discussions at the time haven’t really continued with the way this game has progressed. He’s been more at the forefront now so maybe the tell is something to do with how he gets into the flow of a game.

------------

Nyballs was on RW for a long time and had several reasons to join the wagon. Definitely not a hop. However, they haven’t said nearly as much as the rest of us and its hard to judge where they stand on most of the remaining living people. They’ve had 2 full months to contribute and all we have of them are a dozen posts that are mostly about RW and Trotsky. More posting please.

@nyballs: Is ZMD still your top suspect? How much of it is this reason:

Top two candidates on my list right now are Raging Wishbone and ZMD. Both made the ridiculous attempt of painting Frog Dodging as possessing confidence that they wouldn't die by taking their post out of content.

I don’t think it’s noteworthy that Nyballs suspected Yosariwen more than most people.

------------

I need to re-establish my read on Zaphod, which has gone from mild concern to pretty suspicious.

2. The SK has been caught and lynched and is dead; that's excellent news. Now I need to go back for more tells and analysis. Grrr Smile.

I meant interpretation #2 (noting that the town lynched the SK while I was out). I could see that one might interpret it as #1 (personal gloating, including gloating for the work of a hydra buddy); I tried, and continue to try, to clarify.

I’m ready to believe this perception of Post 141 and that as a catchup post there was some legitimacy to talk about something that was over and done with.

Hey shaft.ed I didn't know you were in this game... you might be upset at the innuendo suggested by one of the hydra's name... give my regards to your wife.

This concerns me mildly because I feel that Zaphod is trying to draw attention to the fact that she is not paying attention to shaft.ed. People should naturally be concerned when a player ignores another player, so you’d think said player would not want to make it known they are doing a suspicious thing by ignoring another player. And that other player flipped scum.

The more I look at Zaphod’s interaction to Trotsky, the more I get concerned.

Furthermore, as of late, I also have never, ever seen you fail to stubbornly tunnel on me. I must therefore conclude that you are scum.

This is just such a bizarre tell but when I try to take out the emotion between Trotsky and Zaphod present at the time, I think this failure to tunnel is just a bad point and was pushed for too long.

I don't remember it, and everything you do is to irritate me anyway, so buzz off, scum. I don't care to answer your questions or interact with you but for the fact that you're a scumbag in this game and you should be dead already.

This was before the Trotsky wagon even existed and Zaphod was done trying to play with Trotsky. It looks like it could be an attempt not to push the wagon using emotion as a tool, when in reality Zaphod was helping to push the wagon just by saying this.

They don’t mention Trotsky for about a week and in that time we pass around that “Who we’d vote for” list and Trotsky is tied with the largest wagons.

Then when Trotsky is lynched, Zaphod does something suspicious:

I'm pretty sure there's a lot of scum on Trotsky's wagon, because beyond gut reads, there wasn't much of a case, roflcopter's habit of lurking as scum gave him away.

I'm very sad not to be on that list, but paradoxically I'd be delighted to vote any player that is on it. How 'bout that.

I feel that they were pushing the Trotsky wagon pretty solidly while staying on the outside of it just so they could come back and say they were scumdriving a wagon.

------------

Right now I’d vote for Zaphod first but I want to take this day in stride and get a better read of Ojando and Ortohoops, who I feel I’ve been neglecting to really analyze critically.

The frog and the alpaca are still looking town to me.

[J-Scope]

It took forever for the scum kill to go through. I'm interested in two players that lurked hard.

Do you think the second statement is related to the first? Who are the lurkers you have in mind?

[J-Scope]

I'd be ok lynching Zaphod or JScope. I'd be willing to lynch ny. I could compromise on Ojando or Ortohoops if needed.

Any new reasons? Can you re-list your old reasons?

[J-Scope]

@Mod: I think the vote count needs correction.

ah, I see the mistake. Thanks. ~Adel

Anti-RW and quick to agree with what we thought was a catch.

That's about me? Since when has my suspicions of RW and his suspicions of me meant anything alignment-wise to you?

I have you and RW as my top two choices, so yes, I think the chances are high that at least one of you is scum. Not because of your suspicions on each other.

This looks like backtracking.

And that was a catch on RW when he suspected someone he saved for not dying. Well not a RW-scum catch but still pretty fishy. So what does quickness have to do with it if I already had a case to lynch the guy?

DGB seems to be honestly looking for scum. JScope seems happy to just ride through the game.

How is that?

[J-Scope]

JScope, RW was town. There's a good chance scum was on the wagon.

But not you right?

ZMD is scummy looking, but I think Zaphod is just plain scum.

Vote: Zaphod

[J-Scope]

Deadline is coming in about 5 days. I still prefer a Zaphod lynch. I would be okay with a ZMD lynch though.

No, actually, I completely disagree here. Scum who want to hop on a wagon are often reluctant to say "Yeah, I agree with x" for the simple reason that it looks bad. If they can come up with a plausible sounding excuse to wagon, then that's much better. Town are less worried, in general, about seeming plausible.

They were already on the wagon by the time they brought up that point about RW's being suspicious of no SK-kill. They could have tried to float by with just their wagon analysis as a reason, but I thought they did extra research.

But looking again I can see why ZMD was in a good position to remember RW's suspicion of FD not dying, since he adopted that stance too.

I strongly believe FD to be SK because of his confidence in surviving A&B's kill.

So it doesn't look like great research anymore.

[J-Scope]

Where's that tajo post we were promised? Moar alpaca please

Also I want to know who the non-voters would vote for.

And nyballs needs to show some life before this day is over. (Hint: this day is almost over)

[J-Scope]

Tajo, are you saying that stuff points to a ZMD - Zaphod scumpair? Is there one particular reason why you voted ZMD over Zaphod?

You acknowledge that he's now at L-1. It'd be good to hear a response from both ZMD and Zaphod while I prepare the =====[]

[J-Scope]

ZMD has given very weak, subjective reasons for suspecting nyballs. The fact that he is promoting them so highly makes me worry he’s trying to bus (that's speculation for tomorrow and doesn't increase my suspicion on ZMD today), or that he’s not trying to analyze posts, but either way ZMD looks bad.

His reasons for suspecting nyballs are:
1. They did not vote for anybody when A&B was lynched
2. They voted for Trotsky when he was lynched

Reason #1 is weak because A&B was lynched May 4, only two days after Nyballs entered the game as a replacement. It also occurred around page 4-5 where justification for voting was not that much. So ZMD’s vote on Orto, FD’s vote on PtA, Zaphod’s vote on Hogfather, or my vote on ZMD should be judged in the same way as someone who could have voted if able to.

Reason #2: If ZMD thinks at least 1 scum had to be on the Trotsky wagon, I don’t understand why his vote or Orto’s vote are off limits. Otherwise FD, nyball and PtA should be on level ground here.

And since ZMD said he didn't find nyballs' suspicious outside of voting, I am having a hard time understanding his confidence in putting nyballs and me on a marquee.

-----------------
I'd still like to see if the 1/2 active Zaphod can respond to the last page but otherwise I'm ready to vote.

[J-Scope]

Both sides of Zaphod have been absent from their regular accounts. We're running out of time so I'll go ahead and hammah this scum.

unvote;
Vote: Zmd

[J-Scope]

Vote: Zaphod

With the reasons I provided in an earlier post, and because this post looks scummy:

Zmd you're pulling at my heartstrings and now I think you're town again.

Who's the scum?

I can't really tell why they changed their position and they aren't trying to form a new one, instead asking someone else to come up with a suspect.

I want to know where they stand now.

[J-Scope]

Mod: can you prod Kison / nyballs?

I think the half-Zaphod is coming out of V/LA now.

@People re-reading: What in particular are you reading?

There's not much I'm learning from ZMD's gut opinions now that he's known town. I do agree on some of his rankings like in this post:

I'd be ok lynching Zaphod or JScope. I'd be willing to lynch ny. I could compromise on Ojando or Ortohoops if needed. I will NOT vote FD or PtA (or myself obviously).

Except move nyballs below Ojando and Ortohoops because I don't have reason to place nyballs as scum currently, and my bad feelings about Ojando and Orto.

--------------------------
I've got a bad feeling about Ojando recently that is mostly gut right now, but I am also concerned that they approached yesterday without very much electricity. To say it another way, they were more passive than aggressive even though they were torn between ZMD and Zaphod.

If they really couldn't decide the best lynch between themselves I'd expect them to work it out amongst themselves but also in the thread directed at ZMD and Zaphod. They did a little but without much passion. This is compared to the passion they had against RW.

@Ojando: Any reason why your confident style dropped between days 3 (RW) and 4 (ZMD/Zaphod)?

--------------------------
I also have a bad feeling about Ortohoops and it starts with how long it took for them after shaft.ed died for them to comment on it or use that knowledge to scumhunt.

Their first post after the shaft.ed flip was almost 5 days but in that post they didn't mention shaft.ed at all. Not even to say they will go and look for connections, etc.

@Orto: Why didn't you acknowledge the flip in that first post?

[J-Scope]

After you said ZMD pulled your heartstrings as town, you didn't give a new feeling on who was scum. So who is scum?

I think the no-kill could be the result of a power role, though there's nothing to indicate that either way.

[J-Scope]

There were 3 trackers in alpha. Why not multiple roles here?

[J-Scope]

It does sound like we are in potential mylo by what Orto wrote out. A RB claim would give us some good odds since I doubt scum didn’t send in any kill.

A no lynch might be good but we should do some scumhunting today because we have the time.

As for a doc, I don't see a massive advantage in him coming forwards today over coming forwards tomorrow. I mean, a 50/50 is still better odds than we would normally get when trying to lynch scum, even slightly better than having the two confirmed innocents, especially when you consider that the claimed doc would instantly die. However, since any doc would have interesting information to share with the town, he really ought to be breadcrumbing yesterdays protection target.

I understand the part about clearing innocents while the doc is alive, but I don’t understand the breadcrumbing before the doc claims outright. Scum might pick up on the breadcrumb and kill the doc before we know who they targeted.

Ojanen has done most of the posting since then, and is naturally more passive than I am.

Really? She just chewed me out in the recently ended chosen game.

I don’t think you necessarily have to start being confident with your next target for me to think you’re playing like town, but I have noticed a drop in your enthusiasm to question someone one on one. It’s a drop that FD pointed out most of us are doing, but some people weren’t that active to begin with (nyballs and zaphod in particular).

It's interesting that you apparently agree with some of his rankings even though he has you as top 2/equal first in his suspects. You need to explain why you could both be town and he could have a similar mentality to you about finding the scum, but place you so highly in his suspects.

I wouldn’t change my prior suspicions just because he came out with a similar list. Especially not after he flipped town, just because he’s wrong about me and I think he’s wrong about nyballs.

I think we had different reasons for suspecting Zaphod, and I can’t tell his complete reason for suspecting either Ojando or Ortohoops. Reasons for placing FD and PtA looks pretty similar. I’ll only post comparative reads from ZMD and myself if some people think it’s worthwhile.

If you re-read my subsequent posts you'll see you're entirely re-treading old ground. I made that post because I was in a rush to beat the prod, if you read my next post I addressed this point after Yos brought it up.

Right, but my concern is that while you claimed to have noticed shaft.ed death and didn’t take into account its implications, you didn’t make any acknowledgement of his death in that post. You didn’t have to consider implications or respond to other people’s ideas on the scum flip, but I am don’t know why you left it completely alone until the next post.

When you say your bad feeling "starts" at that point- is there any more substance to it, or are you just re-treading the points Yos and PTA already made?

There’s also your periods of inactivity. Can you say that any are V/LA or something else? If not I think it shows too much complacency for town that still need to find a couple of scum.

But that’s all for now. I don’t know who you suspect now but I have that question about many people.

[J-Scope]

HEY GUYS I JUST NOTICED

THIS IS IMPORTANT

Look at the number of SKs, mafia; look at the number of kills.

If SKs don't submit a kill, someone is chosen randomly by the mod.

This mechanism doesn't appear to apply to mafia.

So unless wishbone stopped kills, or scum tried to kill the same people at the same time, its possible that a massclaim will answer why there were no kills in previous days?

Still we don't know which kills were from which scum. This looks like further reason for a RB claim at the least now.

But who does everyone think is scum without speculating on kills?

[J-Scope]

Some of orto's pbpa looks like spin because he doesn't always explain why a particular thing points to greater chance of jahudo-nyballs partnership and not another option. I also don't think it's a good idea to be looking for scum partnership in case you're only half-right. I think that hurts individual cases.

I like your prompt for them to post more in 139 having as far as I'm aware not mentioned them previously:

Does this actually mean anything?

Then in your next post you strangely don't mention them having prompted them to speak up- no reply to their catch up post (Post 172)

I didn't find anything interesting to comment on from their posts. I prompted them to speak because they hadn't posted at all. They weren't the only one I asked to be more active.

nyb doesn't mention you in 205 either,

or

in 209. When you post 210 that's not the first time you two have had adjacent posts (presumably after having had a nice little day-talk) WHERE YOU TOTALLY IGNORE ONE ANOTHER.

I don't think its funny that you threw in that little day-talk joke. Is it strange that I ignored nyballs only because I had prodded them to post?

This just reads like a caricature of hunting your buddies' partners.

How so? As it stands your statement looks like spin, because it doesn't explain why and why not the other option.

But yer, for everyone else, just count the number of times they mention one another in subsequent posts. It's completely zilch, the only context J-Scope mentions nyb in is:

Valid observation. I don't have a defense other than what I write is what I think is worthy of being written at the time. Nyballs hasn't said much that I find interesting either way. For most of the game I did the same with you, Orto, and Ojando. I mostly ignored both of you.

I find it amusing you've been so on my case over ignoring SWSWC's flip to begin with (which was a thread you stole from PTA anyhow).

You are overreacting. I have not been so on your case. I haven't called you scummy once. I'm not trying to find ways to call you scum.

J-Scope is still going to hyper-length to analyse SWSWC's scumbuddies in 317 and still totally ignoring nyb.

Shaft.ed didn't mention nyballs.

Again nyb's response is adjacent to J-Scope's in 423. The language used to address J-Scope's questions in this post I find formal and neutral (distancing), in contrast to the answers to Zaphod and Zmd featuring more emotion and aggression respectively.

Are you trying to make a point with our posts being adjacent? I think nyballs' tone can be explained by the fact he was taking the entire post to suspect ZMD, so naturally he'd agree with my points to further his position and disagree with ZMD to further his position. This could be a valid point against nyballs actually.

Textbook distancing from the mislynch.

Because I found Zaphod scummier than ZMD? I had held that position at the start of that day.

Why do they need to show more life, it's not like you ever find them scummy (or even mention them) even though you've hinted that they're lurking throughout the game.

It's always bad when players are lurky. Was my hint the one saying they had a dozen posts over the course of 2 months? I find that bad even if they're posts are chock full of content.

nyb's list is particularly scummy because the two lowest down players are Zaphod and Ojanen and I see no feasible link between the two. It looks like the scum are set to lynch Zaphod and end-game us if their kill goes through today and tomorrow.

I'm not looking for both scum at the same time in case one is wrong. I'm still looking for people individually.

EVERYONE: Is it a good or bad strategy to be looking for both scum right through connections now?

[J-Scope]

Oh yeah, I'm stupid. It's been so long I forgot the original rules about action phases not being related to lynches.

So I don't have any idea what Zaphod's talking about.

[J-Scope]

It is extreme. I think PoketheAlpaca is town. Everything else is a blur. Nyballs in particular seems disenganged. Maybe to the point of forgetting to send in a kill?

Why is nyballs scummy to you now but not before? What do you mean by everything else is a blur?

Your no kill speculation doesn't account for there being two scum alive? Do you think both forgot?

[J-Scope]

I'll respond to the rest of your post later but I need to address this adjacent posting thing separately.

But it happened so many times when I re-read you two it was uncanny.

It may be uncanny but a couple of closely made posts does not explain why it is more likely a scum tell. Posting schedules can be shaped by things like time zones and work schedules.

After looking at all these coincidences I only see two close encounters where you could say we were IM’ing or some similar day talk plan:

Jscope 343 Fri Jun 26, 2009 1:02 pm
Nyballs 344 Fri Jun 26, 2009 1:11 pm

Jscope 466 Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:20 pm
Nyballs 467 Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:21 pm

The rest have a separation of several hours, which you could either take as coincidence or planned but really you could say that of anybody’s post in this game. With the average delay about 5 hours, you could argue that a lot of every player's posts could have been waiting for a scum buddy because of their proximity.

Nyballs 209 Wed May 20, 2009 9:09 pm
Jscope 210 Thu May 21, 2009 1:11 am

Jscope 422 Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:36 pm
Nyballs 423 Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:57 am

nyballs 444 Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:42 am
Jscope 445 Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:05 am

Jscope 493 Sat Jul 18, 2009 12:52 pm
Nyballs 494 Sat Jul 18, 2009 2:25 pm

But if you want to talk about adjacent posting, you should explain why you aren't scumbuddies with Frog or I:

Orto 154 Sun May 10, 2009 9:24 am
Jscope 155 Sun May 10, 2009 9:39 am

Jscope 297 Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:43 pm
Orto 298 Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:39 pm

Jscope 470 Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:40 pm
Orto 471 Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:02 am

---------------------------------------------------

Frog 337 Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:20 pm
Orto 338 Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:27 pm

Orto 400 Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:14 am
Frog 401 Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:39 pm

Frog 478 Fri Jul 17, 2009 5:34 am
Orto 479 Fri Jul 17, 2009 6:35 am

You had a couple other back to back posts with either one of us IIRC but those had a separation of several hours.

[J-Scope]

Are you happy to lynch nyb at this point J-Scope?

No, I'm confident in a Zaphod lynch but I'm also considering the no lynch option. And right now I think we should talk more about the no lynch option.

Pros:
-It is low risk because we still have the same minimum # of mislynches as a safety net.
-unknown power roles may get better information for a mass claim at a later date.

Cons:
-a no scum kill doesn't necessarily tell us something and we're back where we started.
-a power role kill could lose us information.
-any kill lowers our maximum # of mislynches possible as a safety net. (?)

[J-Scope]

The "you are overreacting" here implies you know I'm town and have reacted naturally towards you (although you claim my reaction is unjustified).

How does it imply that? I do not know you are town, but I do not have the confidence to think you are scum. Typically when I don’t focus on people in early days like you (and Ojando and, yes, nyballs) that means I have found nothing scummy with them and do not think they are scum.

I typically do not go out of my way to say someone looks town, or that I have a gut feeling they are town. With nyballs I was always pretty neutral, with you and Ojando I thought town but never had a good reason.

Shaft.ed didn't mention nyballs.

That doesn't preclude them being buddies at all.

I agree but that wasn’t what you were talking about, was it?

J-Scope is still going to hyper-length to analyse SWSWC's scumbuddies in 317 and still totally ignoring nyb.

What does this sentence mean if not to suggest that my SWSWC’s analysis did not include nyballs as a scumbuddy? Since he didn’t mention nyballs, how would I be able to comment on it?

Or did you mean that I ignored nyballs separate from where I was going? Because you had already said that in other sentences. So it seems to me like you meant the first one.

I am very strongly of the opinion that you need to be putting forward a hypothesised actual scum-pair now.

What do you mean by behavior tells? I can agree with you but mostly because we are in that possible mylo situation and need to look at all options. I’m still going to believe Zaphod is scum and look for connections to her.

[J-Scope]

unvote;
Vote: No Lynch

gogogo quick no-lynch!!!

[J-Scope]

@Zaphod: Then maybe you can enlighten us as to why nyballs is scum and we should be voting him now? Keep in mind we have, like, 2 days until deadline.

Ojando, Alpaca and nyballs: are you for or against a no lynch?
Ojando, who is your top suspect?

[J-Scope]

Yeah, because wasn't both halves of Zaphod on V/LA from the middle to the end of day 4? Maybe scum team is lurker Zaphod and lurker nyballs, with Zaphod trying to distance from nyballs using bad logic.

[J-Scope]

J-Scope why are you in such a hurry to vote a no-lynch in 517? It will happen irrespectively of whether we vote for it or not.

I was still voting for Zaphod, so I had to unvote. And I no lynch voted to get the category highest on the board so scum wouldn't slip in a last second vote.

Anyways, after looking for "pairs", I can see a Ojando-Ortohoops scumteam for these quotes:
* They have failed to give a concrete read on the other anywhere. seeing that just recently said he "has no idea" shows to me that they could have been floating by on mild interaction until the pool of suspects decreased to where they had to give a real read.

*Ojando/Ojanen/Sando have mostly ignored Orto since their first few posts upon replacing in. Again they don't give so much as a guess as to Orto's alignment.

*Ortolan has largely ignored Ojando except for 1 post (post 181). In that post he brings up several scummy points about Ojando but doesn't peruse anything. It looks like distancing or mudslinging more than genuine suspicion.

@Ojando and Ortolan: Why have you ignored each other so much?

I still gotta see if they ignore anyone else to this extent, or failed to give a read on anyone else.

[J-Scope]

What do you mean by distancing

or

mudslinging.

The difference is that mudslinging groups them among other players that you are already distanced from, whereas distancing is just on the grounds that you and them are at odds.

To be honest I don't know if mudslinging is the right term but I just threw it in there because it sounds like grouping one scum among several townies.

An example of mudslinging:

you just seem to be bandwagoning with a whole bunch of other people who have attacked her "suggestions for approaching the game" style posting.

An here's the possible distancing:

You're bringing a startling lack of substance to the allegations against us. Once you label an original post as "fluff", that obligates us to respond do it, yet all you can say about the response is "oh that's fluff" again. You fail to go into any detail why.

It is just one post though, and I doubt a Orto-Ojando team would make a conscious effort to distance but only do it for such a short period of time.

But enough about you, let's talk about Ojando. Is this the right time for a role claim? Were you for or against the doc claim earlier today, Orto? I thought we settled that the doc, if ever there was one, should only crumb so the mafia don't kill him today.

I'm more than a little concerned that Orto is role fishing here.

[J-Scope]

You realise it is now effectively "tomorrow" as we have voted a no lynch.

I thought it took 5 votes for a decision today. Adel's VC must be a typo because I only count 7 players. I guess it is twilight.

Why did you totally ignore the substance of what I was saying against him in favour of looking for further (nonexistent) connections between us and accusing me of role-fishing?

Sorry, I'll get to that here.

I feel that both your and Ojando's logic is somewhat flawed because our mod has been V/LA for a week now, which means that scum could only speculate that they're kill was stopped if they sent it during that 11 day period between July 10 and July 21.

More importantly, however, a doc would not logically assume that the kill was sent at a certain point in the day, and thus could not guess if they saved anybody yet.

It's possible that someone like Ojando could speculate as scum, but I don't see how the speculation practically guarantees that they're either scum or doc. So I don't understand yet why you are so certain on this tell. It makes me look for an ulterior motive.

--------------------------
In other news I'm disregarding all problems I have with DGB posts and only counting Plum suspicions in my Zaphod case. Her playstyle is too much of an enigma to me and I feel that I am overreacting when I see how she posts. I have to go see if I had any problem with Plum.

[J-Scope]

I'm here and trying to figure out how much time we have left today.

Orto asked what the nyballs case was. For me:
1. Four town docs does not sound plausible.
2. Ojando was the one to have a protection on somebody the first time there was no kill, so its likely he stopped it.
3. Frog has seemed more town throughout the game than nyballs. Why? Alot of it was the way they commented on alot of bits of people's posts without censorship, like they weren't worried about burning bridges. I could post examples but I've seen it from them most of the game and I like my read on that behavior as town.

And nyball I didn't feel was that townish or scummish until finding out he skipped a protection on that one action phase, but he had contributed to getting there. So yeah, more process of elimination.

[J-Scope]

Not sure what FD means, since I wasn't trying to vote him earlier. Anyway, we'll have to see if a kill got through today. If not, we'll still get another chance even if nyball is not scum. But I think he is scum.

And I think other scum is Zaphod.

Vote: nyballosulgniirkps

[J-Scope]

Vote: Frog Dodging