DHSDSM beta: Game Over.

[nyballosulgniirkps]

Ojando, the inconsistency you are pointing out is mostly because of my partner. #1 and #4 are not mine, and I'm fairly baffled that you didn't realize this. If you don't believe me then I recommend you read the posts entirely. Both posts also mention me in third person. I also always vote with a colon.

#3 was written by me, but that was not a defense. In fact, I can't recall ever taking a 'pro Zaphod' stance this entire game. As you've accurately pointed out, I did defend against the notion that their apparent obliviousness to previous events was scummy, but as is also clearly stated, that is not a point in their favor.

Any transition of my stance on Zaphod has been from neutral to scummy, and that is nothing short of natural.

[Adel]

Votecount as of post 500:

Zaphod Beeblebrox:

1

:J-Scope,

not voting:

6

:Frog Dodging, nyballosulgniirkps, Ojando, Ortohoops, PoketheAlpaca, Zaphod Beeblebrox,

while 7 players are alive, 5 votes will lynch

Countdown Timer to Deadline

[Adel]

meeting Yhtill in the mountains tomorrow.

V/LA for 86 hours from this post.

try posting, it will help the time seem to go by faster in my absence. [/joke]

[Ojando]

Ojando, the inconsistency you are pointing out is mostly because of my partner. #1 and #4 are not mine, and I'm fairly baffled that you didn't realize this. If you don't believe me then I recommend you read the posts entirely. Both posts also mention me in third person. I also always vote with a colon.

You are correct.

#3 was written by me, but that was not a defense. In fact, I can't recall ever taking a 'pro Zaphod' stance this entire game. As you've accurately pointed out, I did defend against the notion that their apparent obliviousness to previous events was scummy, but as is also clearly stated, that is not a point in their favor.
Any transition of my stance on Zaphod has been from neutral to scummy, and that is nothing short of natural.

Regards the pro-Zaphod stance, yes, seems SL found ZB town, you were more anti-anti-Zaphod, consistently finding the attacks on her weak. (notably PtA, Trotsky, J-scope's points nulltells, also Ojando implied). Until your generalized comment about the Zmd interaction you consistently disagreed with the points brought against them, not just the obliviousness one like you continue to say. That consistency is somewhat notable, although it's true Kison never implied Zaphod was more than neutral.

This stating one detail/point in time as opposed to a perspective of a larger chunk of the game is actually somewhat a behavioral trend: it's similar to your Zmd vote with the thing with Frog as the only reason specified as actually water-holdingly scummy although "there are other things".

[PoketheAlpaca]

EVERYONE: Is it a good or bad strategy to be looking for both scum right through connections now?

I can see some of what orto is saying in terms of them agreeing with each other but the idea J-scope is prompting Nyball to post is a bit far-fetched. Deep South Format allows scum to day talk so if j-scope wanted to prompt his buddy to post he'd pm them or use a quick topic outside the game. He wouldn't prompt them in the game thread. I don't think that element warants as effective distancing or a conection. J-scope has been very active this game so I can understand them wanting nyball to post more since nyball hasn't been active. FD has also said people need to post more so I don't really see a problem with J-scope doing it.

Trying to connect players is a strategy that can find scum but it works best when you already know one players alignment. I don't think what SWSWC said about nyball or j-scope was telling. And at the moment we don't know either nyball or j-scope alignment so I don't think there is much to be gleaned. Orto trying to connect them before one flips makes me wonder if Orto already knows one of their alignments and or sees nyballs lynch inevitable.

Exactly how many times has orto mentioned Nyballs? I just did a game search for the letters nyb in ortohoops and ortolan's posts. Outside the two posts
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 28#1766928
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 39#1770039
where Orto trys to connect J-scope to nyballs he hase mentioned nyballs in these places

We got prodded.

Hi, sorry for the delay, this game is harder to read than the other. I also gave alpha more attention because timing is more critical over there.

same.

Mod: I think Zmd has three votes- me Frog and nyb

Whom I'm willing to lynch now (update it as you post):
1. Zaphod Beeblebrox (1) Ojando
3. Zmd (2) Ojando, Ortohoops
4. Trotsky(4): nyballosulgniirkps, ZMD, Zaphod Beeblebrox, Ortohoops
5. Ojando (1): ZMD
7. Yosariwen (1): nybaloosulgniirkps
8. Ortohoops (1): ZMD
10. PoketheAlpaca (0):
11. nyballosulgniirkps (0):
12. Raging Wishbone (2): Zaphod Beeblebrox, Ojando
13. J-Scope (0):
14. Frog Dodging (0):

Wow that's it? And I thought J-scope was the one ignoring nyball until recently. You haven't given much about nyball yourself throughout the game. I also Searched nyball's posts for the phrase orto:

My reaction to RagingWishbone's unvote was the same as Ortohoops' - the reason is that town would be more likely to consider the possible benefits of that claim being legit, and utilizing the kill of the vigilante without realizing that they already possess the potential to make up for it themselves with their limitless lynches. While it's only in the benefit of the SK to kill town,

both

serial killers and vigilantes *want* to kill scum. The more likely to give off the knee-jerk reaction of unvoting would be town.

Yosariwen's re-entrance into the game is very good. I'm getting a strong town vibe from him, and while I believe the point Ortohoops raises about his contradictory Raging Wishbone vote is valid, I believe his explanation is sufficient, nor do I believe it warrants the amount of attention that it has received. The pushes against him don't feel genuine, particularly from Raging Wishbone, and as such...

Vote: Raging Wishbone

for that horrendous vote justification in post 186

<snip>

However, the ease of the wagon on PoketheAlpaca seems off to me; it seems too easy, no one seems to disagree with it at all. I can't quite explain it; I see scumtells and they look scummy on their own, but the wagon feels like it might be scum supported to me, or at least not scum opposed, if that makes sense; no one is arguing against this wagon, or trying to start a competing wagon, and that feels like a bad sign to me. Nuwen says she would like to see more people comment on this wagon.

So...now you want as many comments as possible on the wagon, prolonging the time it will take to lynch which you said just before you wanted to shorten? Your defence also makes no sense: "he's acting scummy but...I don't think he's scum".

You're putting words into his mouth. That entire paragraph you quoted is nothing more than an observation, yet you are twisting it to appear as if he is requesting that people carry it out.

a couple of these:

Whom I'm willing to lynch now (update it as you post):
1. Zaphod Beeblebrox (1) Ojando
3. Zmd (2) Ojando, Ortohoops, nybaloosulgniirkps
4. Trotsky(4): nyballosulgniirkps, ZMD, Zaphod Beeblebrox, Ortohoops
5. Ojando (1): ZMD
7. Yosariwen (1): nybaloosulgniirkps(?)
8. Ortohoops (1): ZMD
10. PoketheAlpaca (0):
11. nyballosulgniirkps (0):
12. Raging Wishbone (2): Zaphod Beeblebrox, Ojando, nyballosulgniirkps
13. J-Scope (0):
14. Frog Dodging (0):

Ortohoops - Neutral

Except for that last part and maybe nyball disagreeing with orto about yos there isn't much there either.

There are several other players who I have mentioned very minimally. Bonus points if you can name them.

Is that enough for bonus points?

_________________

In that post You don't mention any strong suspicions on trotsky. The only time you mention an actual case for suspecting trotsky before that post is a month earlier here:

<Snip>

Did you think that alone was reason enough to lynch trotsky?

This was made by Springlullaby and, because of what I have said about there being virtually no communication between us, I don't know any more of why she placed that vote than what is in written in the post.

My

reason was more gut-based; I recall not liking Trotsky's complete detachment from the game, and unwillingness to fight the grim situation he was in. Not something I would have expected from roflcopter. But I didn't feel like spending hours sifting through posts just so I could match the intensity of this game and justify my vote to everyone else. Call that scummy if you please, but I don't have the fire inside to do it anymore.

In this paragraph you mention the main reason roflcopter was attacked by Zaphod, rofl's lurkage/detachment from the game. Gut is the only reason you mention as your own. How long did it take you to right this paragraph? Not long huh? So i don't see why you couldn't have given something short and to this equivalence back then.

You aslo mention you had other things and then undermine that logic by saying it doesn't hold that much weight. I don't think you really had any other strong reasons for going after them. Can you explain why you were willing to continue going after ZMD for the same main reasons you went after RW when you said ZMD was less guilty of it? Can you also state if there were truly other things that you actually felt strongly about?

Again, "other things" is referring to general vibes that I did not feel like pursuing or justifying in the eyes of others.

"Less guilty" also does not mean "not guilty." It means Raging Wishbone is of higher priority. With him out of the picture, ZMD raised rank in the queue of scumbaggedness

Then why did you even bring up those vibes or other things? You brought them up and then said they carried 'less' weight. By saying less weight you undermine your argument. I think that if you genuinely had other reasons at all you would have expressed them as 'some' weight. That way you would actually be giving a better case and or hunting with better reasoning.

Not going deeply into your reasoning on trotsky makes me think you were trying to sneak in a vote in order to get any lynch and not the lynch you seemed to be wanting, especially since you didn't seem to realize the wagons were at the same size.

You get off RW's wagon and vote trotsky as trotsky's wagon is picking up before page 12. You were the 4th vote on RW and the 4th vote on Trotsky at that point. Is there any great reason you can give for thinking a wagon on Trotsky would go through over your wagon on RW? Why didn't you continue to try to push for an RW lynch when you clearly perfered it and needed the same number of votes?

This has been explained already. We were under the post constraint at that point, and closing in on the limit. I was pushing for a lynch to go through, and did not mind seeing Trotsky go. This was back when people were posting absurdly long posts. I didn't accurately count the votes, but things seemed to be moving towards Trotsky. And as such, I placed my vote where I felt it would most likely lead to a lynch I was not opposed to. It worked.

I think I'm ready to take this ball to the hoop. Deadline is next wednesday. Looks like adel extended it from friday because of her v/la. I'm getting kinda sleepy at the moment. What exactly is the logic behind the no lynch at this stage again?

Can we even no lynch with Adel's new rules?

We got 7 alive so is its not exactly mylo or am i miscounting/forgetting something. I am ready to lynch nyball today.

[J-Scope]

It is extreme. I think PoketheAlpaca is town. Everything else is a blur. Nyballs in particular seems disenganged. Maybe to the point of forgetting to send in a kill?

Why is nyballs scummy to you now but not before? What do you mean by everything else is a blur?

Your no kill speculation doesn't account for there being two scum alive? Do you think both forgot?

[Shanba]

Guys, I'm gone. I'm leaving tonight and I don't think JD will be picking up after me; after all, weeks of poking him when I was around haven't prompted any action so I assume he'll just sit back and ignore the game if he can. Sorry about this. I'm off for three weeks, and my access will probably range from none to very limited. I had hoped that having a partner would allow me to play during the summer.

I'm just going to spin off some of the thoughts that are crossing my mind about who might be scum in this game. J-scope is another Hydra with a sleeping head; I really doubt Scope is doing any talking. Scope's passiveness suggests town to me; I reckon he would put on more of a facade as scum. Possible connection between J-Scope and PTA; after Shaftscum dies Jscope who has up to then been attacking PTA is very quick to clear him. Also although shaftscum built a case against PTA, he's not pushing it aggressively and earlier in the day he had pushed the A&B wagon when the two were on level-pegging. I could see a shaft/scope/alpaca group.

I do not think Ojando is scum. I also think it is unlikely that ZB is scum; I am often getting pro-town vibes off them.

The thing about nyballs is that he seems very open to just running off the one piece of work they've really pulled this game; that is, deconstructing the case against us. Clearly, they were interested and motivated then, because they were willing to go to some length to disprove ZMD. But that seems to have defined their play, they're not looking beyond it. This is tunneling of a most unusual kind and I can definitely see it as being indicative of scum. Furthermore (and I get the feeling that no one listens to me when I post this, because although I posted it before it's since been posted again by ohgodIdon'trememberandIdon'tcare) they had all the possible lynches down as suspects before they started tunneling.

Jscope is weird around the end of the trotsky lynch. I remember (wrongly, apparently - it was ortohoops) clearly that we were at an impasse there until I made the move off ZMD onto trotsky to get us a lynch. After that there was a general doggypile. nyballs, rw, PTA jumped on. Jscope tingles my scumdar for a weird passive-aggressive post about Trotsky (acting as commentator not as protagonist).

there's a point where nyballs shows evidence of skimming:

The Frog Dodging attacks are getting pretty stale. First it was that he was the serial killer. Now that that's over and done with, the speculation is that he received the scum doctor protection. Can anyone point to scuminess in their actual play? That would probably be a more promising place to start.

I think this is referring to Ojando, in which case it is a mischaracterisation: Ojando was attacking a possible discrepancy in our posts about our inability to contact each other. I'm ambivalent about jscope's subsequent case on RW. Overall it's a slihgt towntell as it looks genuine and he's avoiding the tasty ZMD wagon.

Besides, a Night 0 choice for a player likely to be killed would hardly be FD.

These sorts of comments are a massive thorn in my ego

I want us to win this. My suspect list goes as follows: nyballs, J-scope, PTa, ortohoops, the rest of you pro-town bastards.

I didn't really get much on ortohoops. They stayed more or less anonymous in my mind, as I basically skipped the large walls of text, so I lost their argument with Yosiwen. My gut there is town, but it's the sort of gut feeling that normally presages being violently sick, so I wouldn't put too much trust in it.

Yeah. I want nyballs dead; I can't see anything that says town and I've seen a lot of stuff that says scum.

[Ortohoops]

You are overreacting. I have not been so on your case. I haven't called you scummy once. I'm not trying to find ways to call you scum.

The "you are overreacting" here implies you know I'm town and have reacted naturally towards you (although you claim my reaction is unjustified).

Shaft.ed didn't mention nyballs.

That doesn't preclude them being buddies at all.

Are you trying to make a point with our posts being adjacent? I think nyballs' tone can be explained by the fact he was taking the entire post to suspect ZMD, so naturally he'd agree with my points to further his position and disagree with ZMD to further his position. This could be a valid point against nyballs actually.

To be frank normally I would never view mere post adjacency as a scum-tell. But it happened

so

many times when I re-read you two it was uncanny. I'm aware that scum normally would deliberately avoid it so that it wouldn't be a scum-tell but it just happened constantly when I re-read you two, far more than luck would suggest.

I'm not looking for both scum at the same time in case one is wrong. I'm still looking for people individually.

EVERYONE: Is it a good or bad strategy to be looking for both scum right through connections now?

I am very strongly of the opinion that you need to be putting forward a hypothesised actual scum-pair now. If we restrict ourselves to making individual scum-cases it's just another way the two scum can easily exploit "behavioural tells" on a townie and therefore end-game. I dislike behavioural tells over actual "links to scum" tells in general though.

But I'm not scum, and my disdain for being lynched as town has helped me avoid it for 19 months now, for a total of 3, and I have no intention of changing that for this game.

Honestly, this sentence serves no practical purpose other than to say "hehe I'm not scum and thus will break my record if you lynch me".

nyb: who do you think the scum-pair is if you're not in it?

I can see some of what orto is saying in terms of them agreeing with each other but the idea J-scope is prompting Nyball to post is a bit far-fetched. Deep South Format allows scum to day talk so if j-scope wanted to prompt his buddy to post he'd pm them or use a quick topic outside the game. He wouldn't prompt them in the game thread.

Well they might be asking them to post in order that we draw precisely the conclusion you have "they would have just asked them in their quicktopic". Do you not find the sheer number of instances of adjacent posts between the two out of the ordinary?

Trying to connect players is a strategy that can find scum but it works best when you already know one players alignment. I don't think what SWSWC said about nyball or j-scope was telling. And at the moment we don't know either nyball or j-scope alignment so I don't think there is much to be gleaned. Orto trying to connect them before one flips makes me wonder if Orto already knows one of their alignments and or sees nyballs lynch inevitable.

That's a big stretch. If you didn't notice I am advocating looking for scum-pairings. If we scumhunt individually it makes it way easier for the two scum to build a case against a townie with "behavioural tells" which then gets populous support. If someone has no viable buddies then I'm willing to conclude they're not scum, and anyone arguing otherwise is probably scum themselves.

Clearly according to you (PTA) we haven't mentioned nyb much. That is a point I can't refute. All I know is I'm town and am looking for scum. If I see something as pointing to two people being more likely scum, even if ironically I've apparently committed the same thing myself; I'm still going to point it out. Do you have an actual problem with the methodology/rationale being used- if we interacted with nyb in the same way as J-Scope, does that make us both equally likely to be scum; or is it just a null-tell in both cases? Please clarify your opinion.

We got 7 alive so is its not exactly mylo or am i miscounting/forgetting something.

scum day-kill = 6 alive, lynch = 5 alive, scum day-kill tomorrow = 4 alive = end-game. Frankly I'm skeptical of anyone claiming not to be aware of this.

I find PTA's eagerness to lynch nyb unsettling. They've been harking on about our links to SWSC all game, trying to ensure we're constantly on the back foot but they've never taken it very far beyond voting or stating their readiness to vote us. They've never actually tried to drum up popular support to lynch us, and even now apparently don't suspect us enough to neglect to lynch nyb. I'm concerned PTA has been using us all game as a way of avoiding doing real scum-hunting or committing scum-slips. Nothing else could explain the number of attack posts they've made against us while doing little towards getting us lynched. Also I'm unsettled by J-Scope agreeing with me on nyb (on one point at least):

Are you trying to make a point with our posts being adjacent? I think nyballs' tone can be explained by the fact he was taking the entire post to suspect ZMD, so naturally he'd agree with my points to further his position and disagree with ZMD to further his position. This could be a valid point against nyballs actually.

I would like some clarification on where J-Scope stands on nyb.

[J-Scope]

I'll respond to the rest of your post later but I need to address this adjacent posting thing separately.

But it happened so many times when I re-read you two it was uncanny.

It may be uncanny but a couple of closely made posts does not explain why it is more likely a scum tell. Posting schedules can be shaped by things like time zones and work schedules.

After looking at all these coincidences I only see two close encounters where you could say we were IM’ing or some similar day talk plan:

Jscope 343 Fri Jun 26, 2009 1:02 pm
Nyballs 344 Fri Jun 26, 2009 1:11 pm

Jscope 466 Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:20 pm
Nyballs 467 Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:21 pm

The rest have a separation of several hours, which you could either take as coincidence or planned but really you could say that of anybody’s post in this game. With the average delay about 5 hours, you could argue that a lot of every player's posts could have been waiting for a scum buddy because of their proximity.

Nyballs 209 Wed May 20, 2009 9:09 pm
Jscope 210 Thu May 21, 2009 1:11 am

Jscope 422 Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:36 pm
Nyballs 423 Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:57 am

nyballs 444 Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:42 am
Jscope 445 Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:05 am

Jscope 493 Sat Jul 18, 2009 12:52 pm
Nyballs 494 Sat Jul 18, 2009 2:25 pm

But if you want to talk about adjacent posting, you should explain why you aren't scumbuddies with Frog or I:

Orto 154 Sun May 10, 2009 9:24 am
Jscope 155 Sun May 10, 2009 9:39 am

Jscope 297 Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:43 pm
Orto 298 Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:39 pm

Jscope 470 Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:40 pm
Orto 471 Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:02 am

---------------------------------------------------

Frog 337 Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:20 pm
Orto 338 Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:27 pm

Orto 400 Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:14 am
Frog 401 Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:39 pm

Frog 478 Fri Jul 17, 2009 5:34 am
Orto 479 Fri Jul 17, 2009 6:35 am

You had a couple other back to back posts with either one of us IIRC but those had a separation of several hours.

[ortolan]

If you are correct in implying that that's pretty much a standard distribution of adjacent posts then fair enough. I started to re-read you two when Kmd mentioned you were a likely scum-pair and perhaps it was confirmation bias that made me think your posts occurred adjacent to one another more than they would on average. I will check when I next re-read. Are you happy to lynch nyb at this point J-Scope?

[populartajo]

V/LA until weekend. Job is being shitty these days.

[J-Scope]

Are you happy to lynch nyb at this point J-Scope?

No, I'm confident in a Zaphod lynch but I'm also considering the no lynch option. And right now I think we should talk more about the no lynch option.

Pros:
-It is low risk because we still have the same minimum # of mislynches as a safety net.
-unknown power roles may get better information for a mass claim at a later date.

Cons:
-a no scum kill doesn't necessarily tell us something and we're back where we started.
-a power role kill could lose us information.
-any kill lowers our maximum # of mislynches possible as a safety net. (?)

[ortolan]

Lynch wrong today = dead tomorrow (assuming the scum kill is going to go through)

If we no lynch today (and the scum kill goes through) then we have 6 players tomorrow, we're still in LYOL (assuming the scum kill goes through) but with one fewer player

[nyballosulgniirkps]

Shanba: I have basically admitted to skimming this game. The problem is that it's not an indication of my alignment. I can give a plethora of games where I have lurked as town and skimmed just to avoid being replaced. I can also list several games where I have done this as scum in the past. It's more a matter of whether or now I am enjoying the game. My reasons for being detached from this game are not alignment based, and I think if you look at my dwindling level of activity over the site in recent weeks, that you will see for yourself that this trend is not exclusive to this game. I also think that you, of all people, should know this can and does happen to players. You should also note that even as a duo(we were, at the time), Springlullaby and I were not very helpful in the Alpha game, where we were town. I urge you to look to see if you can find any actual difference between our behavior in that game and this one, and ask yourself if you truly, honestly think I am scum because of my activity and level of commitment to this game.

nyb: who do you think the scum-pair is if you're not in it?

I don't think J-Scope is scum. I don't think Frog Dodging is scum. I also don't think PokeTheAlpaca is scum. This means I think the scum are among you, Ojanen and Zaphod Beeblebrox. If I had to pick two, it would be you and Zaphod.

In this paragraph you mention the main reason roflcopter was attacked by Zaphod, rofl's lurkage/detachment from the game. Gut is the only reason you mention as your own. How long did it take you to right this paragraph? Not long huh? So i don't see why you couldn't have given something short and to this equivalence back then.

I certainly could have, had I spent the time thinking about what it was I did not like at the time of posting that. But I didn't, and acknowledge that it is anti-town.

Then why did you even bring up those vibes or other things? You brought them up and then said they carried 'less' weight. By saying less weight you undermine your argument. I think that if you genuinely had other reasons at all you would have expressed them as 'some' weight. That way you would actually be giving a better case and or hunting with better reasoning.

I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make. The only point that I said carried 'less weight' was in reference to ZMD's detachment from the game. By 'less weight' I am (poorly) trying to say that I think it carries less weight

in this game

because of the post-limiting mechanic resulting in the monstrously sized posts. It should be obvious that 'less weight' does not mean 'no weight', so again, I'm not really sure what you're trying to say, here.

The 'less guilty' comment is a completely different thing, and that is my comparison between Raging Wishbone and ZMD's attacks on Frog Dodging. I thought Raging Wishbone was scummier because of it because he was the one who went and found their post of imminent death and selectively quoted it, whereas ZMD claimed to have based his opinion on the selective quoting.

Not going deeply into your reasoning on trotsky makes me think you were trying to sneak in a vote in order to get any lynch and not the lynch you seemed to be wanting, especially since you didn't seem to realize the wagons were at the same size.

I can't really argue this beyond citing my low level of devotion to this game, and more recently, Mafia in general.

[J-Scope]

The "you are overreacting" here implies you know I'm town and have reacted naturally towards you (although you claim my reaction is unjustified).

How does it imply that? I do not know you are town, but I do not have the confidence to think you are scum. Typically when I don’t focus on people in early days like you (and Ojando and, yes, nyballs) that means I have found nothing scummy with them and do not think they are scum.

I typically do not go out of my way to say someone looks town, or that I have a gut feeling they are town. With nyballs I was always pretty neutral, with you and Ojando I thought town but never had a good reason.

Shaft.ed didn't mention nyballs.

That doesn't preclude them being buddies at all.

I agree but that wasn’t what you were talking about, was it?

J-Scope is still going to hyper-length to analyse SWSWC's scumbuddies in 317 and still totally ignoring nyb.

What does this sentence mean if not to suggest that my SWSWC’s analysis did not include nyballs as a scumbuddy? Since he didn’t mention nyballs, how would I be able to comment on it?

Or did you mean that I ignored nyballs separate from where I was going? Because you had already said that in other sentences. So it seems to me like you meant the first one.

I am very strongly of the opinion that you need to be putting forward a hypothesised actual scum-pair now.

What do you mean by behavior tells? I can agree with you but mostly because we are in that possible mylo situation and need to look at all options. I’m still going to believe Zaphod is scum and look for connections to her.

[ortolan]

Shanba: I have basically admitted to skimming this game. The problem is that it's not an indication of my alignment. I can give a plethora of games where I have lurked as town and skimmed just to avoid being replaced. I can also list several games where I have done this as scum in the past. It's more a matter of whether or now I am enjoying the game. My reasons for being detached from this game are not alignment based, and I think if you look at my dwindling level of activity over the site in recent weeks, that you will see for yourself that this trend is not exclusive to this game. I also think that you, of all people, should know this can and does happen to players. You should also note that even as a duo(we were, at the time), Springlullaby and I were not very helpful in the Alpha game, where we were town. I urge you to look to see if you can find any actual difference between our behavior in that game and this one, and ask yourself if you truly, honestly think I am scum because of my activity and level of commitment to this game.

Well at best all you can have established here is that your behaviour this game is a null-tell, not a town-tell

I don't think J-Scope is scum. I don't think Frog Dodging is scum. I also don't think PokeTheAlpaca is scum. This means I think the scum are among you, Ojanen and Zaphod Beeblebrox. If I had to pick two, it would be you and Zaphod.

This is exactly the sort of thing I was talking about. Do you see a link between us and Zaphod? What is it? This making lists and not really considering buddying etc. is scummy. I also feel a lot better about lynching you after your announced top two suspects- me and Zaphod. Zaphod I've felt was town as long as I can remember, and I know I'm town. Also Frog wants to lynch you and I'm almost positive they're town. I still think J-Scope - nyb is the scumpair.

What does this sentence mean if not to suggest that my SWSWC’s analysis did not include nyballs as a scumbuddy? Since he didn’t mention nyballs, how would I be able to comment on it?

Or did you mean that I ignored nyballs separate from where I was going? Because you had already said that in other sentences. So it seems to me like you meant the first one.

I meant two different points. You seemed to be going to great length across multiple posts to analyse SWSWC's scumbuddies while neglecting other aspects of the game. I also noted your ignoring nyb as consistent with your general trend of behaviour.

What do you mean by behavior tells? I can agree with you but mostly because we are in that possible mylo situation and need to look at all options. I’m still going to believe Zaphod is scum and look for connections to her.

Behaviour tells = that guy's acting all nervous about the mislynch therefore he's scum. As opposed to looking for links between players which indicate they are viable scumbuddies. The first way is a good way of catching scum to me but if you can provide evidence of the second nature at this point in the game I'm far more likely to be convinced your case is genuine and you're not simply trying to push through a mislynch at the last minute.

[PokerFace]

I can see some of what orto is saying in terms of them agreeing with each other but the idea J-scope is prompting Nyball to post is a bit far-fetched. Deep South Format allows scum to day talk so if j-scope wanted to prompt his buddy to post he'd pm them or use a quick topic outside the game. He wouldn't prompt them in the game thread.

Well they might be asking them to post in order that we draw precisely the conclusion you have "they would have just asked them in their quicktopic". Do you not find the sheer number of instances of adjacent posts between the two out of the ordinary?

Trying to connect players is a strategy that can find scum but it works best when you already know one players alignment. I don't think what SWSWC said about nyball or j-scope was telling. And at the moment we don't know either nyball or j-scope alignment so I don't think there is much to be gleaned. Orto trying to connect them before one flips makes me wonder if Orto already knows one of their alignments and or sees nyballs lynch inevitable.

That's a big stretch. If you didn't notice I am advocating looking for scum-pairings. If we scumhunt individually it makes it way easier for the two scum to build a case against a townie with "behavioural tells" which then gets populous support. If someone has no viable buddies then I'm willing to conclude they're not scum, and anyone arguing otherwise is probably scum themselves.

Clearly according to you (PTA) we haven't mentioned nyb much. That is a point I can't refute. All I know is I'm town and am looking for scum. If I see something as pointing to two people being more likely scum, even if ironically I've apparently committed the same thing myself; I'm still going to point it out. Do you have an actual problem with the methodology/rationale being used- if we interacted with nyb in the same way as J-Scope, does that make us both equally likely to be scum; or is it just a null-tell in both cases? Please clarify your opinion..

<snip>

I find PTA's eagerness to lynch nyb unsettling. They've been harking on about our links to SWSC all game, trying to ensure we're constantly on the back foot but they've never taken it very far beyond voting or stating their readiness to vote us. They've never actually tried to drum up popular support to lynch us, and even now apparently don't suspect us enough to neglect to lynch nyb. I'm concerned PTA has been using us all game as a way of avoiding doing real scum-hunting or committing scum-slips. Nothing else could explain the number of attack posts they've made against us while doing little towards getting us lynched. Also I'm unsettled by J-Scope agreeing with me on nyb (on one point at least):

I was trying to make a few points there.

1. That multiple people had been ignoring nyball through the game. And if you viewed one insistance of ignoring as a town tell or a scum tell the other insistances with other players should be viewed the same.

2. In ignoring them, you have not really stated you thought they were scum or town. All you were really stating was there was some connection between j-scope and nyb. What leads you to believe they are scum, just that they are conected? Have you noticed any individual scummy actions involved with the conection or the players themselves?

There is a difference between saying there is a conection and saying X is scum because of this conection. You didn't seem to really identify them as being scum or being conected to dead scum. I did not think some of your remarks were a valid conection and I did not see how only that conection portrayed them as scum together.

Also I believe I have voted you before in the past and or tried to get others to vote you too with me. Hell spent most of phase 1 doing that. Most other players hadn't really noticed our(Pta's) efforts there so I have continued to consider you as a suspect while looking at the points made by others since there is more than scum about

_________________

What exactly is the logic behind the no lynch at this stage again?

Can we even no lynch with Adel's new rules?

We got 7 alive so is its not exactly mylo or am i miscounting/forgetting something. I am ready to lynch nyball today.

scum day-kill = 6 alive, lynch = 5 alive, scum day-kill tomorrow = 4 alive = end-game. Frankly I'm skeptical of anyone claiming not to be aware of this.

Yay I'm not sure what I was thinking. Looked at my notes for part of that and I must have been more sleepy and or out of it than I realized. For some reason I thought Adel's rules went and lynched the top ranked player and since no lynch isn't technically a player, I for some reason thought that it couldn't be done unless no body had made any votes and i was worried scum would want to sneak in a last second vote there or something and that by lyncing someone entire town thought was scummy was better than risking it. Yay I don't know how I got that idea. I was sleepy but I didn't think I was drunk. We can just vote no lynch and have that be the biggest wagon if that's what we want.

Part of me also wanted to see who was considering the idea and why. Seeing people's additudes there would be a good way to improve my reads on players. And what you said actually makes some sence. I may need to go back and think over my read of you. I can still see some conection between you and SWSWC but this sounds like some actual pro-town logic so I can't understand why you'd bring it up as scum that well.

Tell me what happens if no one dies today via the scum kill? Does that mean anything?

_________________

@Zaphod,

you openly came out saying you didn't want a no lynch earlier while I questioned why and considered an alternative

Also I am not sure I follow why some people are considering no lynching today. Not really sure how its going to benefit us. Unless I figure that out or get an explaination on it I think I'm up for voting/lynching ortohoops or Nyball.

I'm also against a no-lynch.

Since you really weren't agreeing with a directly stated reason against it there I got to ask why you are against it and what points are you trying to make in terms of believing scum aren't trying to make a kill? Is scum not paying attention your only remarks?

_________________

Then why did you even bring up those vibes or other things? You brought them up and then said they carried 'less' weight. By saying less weight you undermine your argument. I think that if you genuinely had other reasons at all you would have expressed them as 'some' weight. That way you would actually be giving a better case and or hunting with better reasoning.

I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make. The only point that I said carried 'less weight' was in reference to ZMD's detachment from the game. By 'less weight' I am (poorly) trying to say that I think it carries less weight

in this game

because of the post-limiting mechanic resulting in the monstrously sized posts. It should be obvious that 'less weight' does not mean 'no weight', so again, I'm not really sure what you're trying to say, here.

The 'less guilty' comment is a completely different thing, and that is my comparison between Raging Wishbone and ZMD's attacks on Frog Dodging. I thought Raging Wishbone was scummier because of it because he was the one who went and found their post of imminent death and selectively quoted it, whereas ZMD claimed to have based his opinion on the selective quoting.

hmm... its seems we have a miscomunication. I thought of what you were saying as one full line of a case where you mentioned an element being weak. You were more so comparing one element with another while presenting them. Still I am not sure how comparing parts of a case like that is suppose to accuratly get your points across so that you and others can find and wagon scum.

In this paragraph you mention the main reason roflcopter was attacked by Zaphod, rofl's lurkage/detachment from the game. Gut is the only reason you mention as your own. How long did it take you to right this paragraph? Not long huh? So i don't see why you couldn't have given something short and to this equivalence back then.

I certainly could have, had I spent the time thinking about what it was I did not like at the time of posting that. But I didn't, and acknowledge that it is anti-town.

Then i'm keeping it in mind

<snip>

Not going deeply into your reasoning on trotsky makes me think you were trying to sneak in a vote in order to get any lynch and not the lynch you seemed to be wanting, especially since you didn't seem to realize the wagons were at the same size.

I can't really argue this beyond citing my low level of devotion to this game, and more recently, Mafia in general.

How many games are you in right now site wide? What modding responsibilities, if any, do you have right now?

_________________

This is exactly the sort of thing I was talking about. Do you see a link between us and Zaphod? What is it? This making lists and not really considering buddying etc. is scummy.

I also feel a lot better about lynching you after your announced top two suspects- me and Zaphod. Zaphod I've felt was town as long as I can remember, and I know I'm town.

Also Frog wants to lynch you and I'm almost positive they're town.

I still think J-Scope - nyb is the scumpair.

Wait.. so one point you have is that you think you are town and him going after you makes him scum? Dude that is pretty much what omgus means without the actually voting of each other. Also you want to vote them just cause FD does, So you are agreeing with them only because you think they are town? You don't have another reason, one of your own?

[J-Scope]

unvote;
Vote: No Lynch

gogogo quick no-lynch!!!

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

No-lynch is a terribad idea. As usual, it means the next kill is the scum's, and totally out of our hands. The next kill would be 100% a townie. At least with a lynch we have a shot at getting rid of scum.

[J-Scope]

@Zaphod: Then maybe you can enlighten us as to why nyballs is scum and we should be voting him now? Keep in mind we have, like, 2 days until deadline.

Ojando, Alpaca and nyballs: are you for or against a no lynch?
Ojando, who is your top suspect?

[PoketheAlpaca]

@Zaphod,

are the reasons you have recently given the only reasons you want a lynch?

can you explain your theory on why scum may not be killing and or paying attention?

have you seen the recent info on no lynch?

Vote: No lynch

[J-Scope]

Yeah, because wasn't both halves of Zaphod on V/LA from the middle to the end of day 4? Maybe scum team is lurker Zaphod and lurker nyballs, with Zaphod trying to distance from nyballs using bad logic.

[Ojando]

I'm not totally convinced of the no-lynch, but my concerns go along the lines of not seeing the benefit, I can't see anything wrong in terms of hurting town. I don't really buy the 'not around for a submit' argument that i think is being suggested by some. My opinion is that scum seem to have decided either not to submit or are persisting with trying to kill the same person and being stopped somehow. There are other options, some discussed so far, some not, but those 2 seem by far the most likely to me. If so, I'm not entirely sure that we're going to achieve the desired effect.

But, as said, I can't see how it can hurt in this situation, until I see a real downside I'll

Vote: No Lynch

J-Scope, my personal top suspect is Zaphod, I've had a bad feeling about him for a fair while, and I'm less than impressed by his response to the no-lynch issue. His argument against it is incredibly simplistic and something I'd expect to see used to refute a D1 no-lynch vote. No lynches are usually a terrible idea given the exact reason he's given, but there's a reason that the word 'usually' is used, because there are exceptions. I find it scummy to attack what at least a few people agree is a pro-town move without addressing the arguments behind it, and to add on pulling out the tired old excuse for No-Lynch being a bad idea compounds the scumminess.

[ortolan]

I was trying to make a few points there.

1. That multiple people had been ignoring nyball through the game. And if you viewed one insistance of ignoring as a town tell or a scum tell the other insistances with other players should be viewed the same.

Objectively that is true, yes. However I am not approaching this game from an objective viewpoint in that we know what our own role is (and no-one else in the game does). That game is still perfectly

consistent

at least with them being scum together, even if the behaviour is the same towards us and/or anyone else, including those who may have died and flipped town.

2. In ignoring them, you have not really stated you thought they were scum or town. All you were really stating was there was some connection between j-scope and nyb. What leads you to believe they are scum, just that they are conected? Have you noticed any individual scummy actions involved with the conection or the players themselves?

My case comes about more by process of elimination. I think Frog is obv-town, I have always thought Zaphod was town, and I still have a mild obligation to think you are town due to SWSC's behaviour towards you. I have no idea about Ojanen and probably should have had a closer look. Picking up the thread left by Kmd I was specifically looking at the possibility they are scumbuddies and see behaviour which is consistent with that. I think they could well be scum together, and believe them both to be extremely difficult to read as scum, see: mini 701? and the scum o' the sea game for springlullaby (I can't even remember who her hydra partner is) and see e.g. Sushi Mafia and Alpha for Jahudo.

Specifically I feel Jahudo may be acting in a similarly "detached" way to the way he played in Alpha, where he pretty much confidently shrugged off any criticism of him with a sort of distant air. He showed very passive but not really incriminating behaviour towards his scumbuddies there also. It's hard because I don't have a town meta on him, but after re-reading them I was left with little counter-evidence to suggest them not being scum together.

Tell me what happens if no one dies today via the scum kill? Does that mean anything?

It seems incredibly unlikely but it would mean we are still effectively in LYOL, because the scum have a kill on either side of the lynch. Don't forget the daykill always precedes the lynch on any given day.

Wait.. so one point you have is that you think you are town and him going after you makes him scum? Dude that is pretty much what omgus means without the actually voting of each other. Also you want to vote them just cause FD does, So you are agreeing with them only because you think they are town? You don't have another reason, one of your own?

If I think FD are town and composed of good players then I am inclined to think there is something to their suspicions, yes, particularly when they coincide with what Zmd observed and what I've had substantial trouble disproving. Also you're not taking into account the mere fact that I think they're town means that I eliminate 1 out of 6 hydras and start looking at the others.

After Ojanen's last post I am almost certain he is either scum or the doctor.

J-Scope why are you in such a hurry to vote a no-lynch in 517? It will happen irrespectively of whether we vote for it or not.

[Ortohoops]

Vote: no lynch