DHSDSM beta: Game Over.

[J-Scope]

J-Scope why are you in such a hurry to vote a no-lynch in 517? It will happen irrespectively of whether we vote for it or not.

I was still voting for Zaphod, so I had to unvote. And I no lynch voted to get the category highest on the board so scum wouldn't slip in a last second vote.

Anyways, after looking for "pairs", I can see a Ojando-Ortohoops scumteam for these quotes:
* They have failed to give a concrete read on the other anywhere. seeing that just recently said he "has no idea" shows to me that they could have been floating by on mild interaction until the pool of suspects decreased to where they had to give a real read.

*Ojando/Ojanen/Sando have mostly ignored Orto since their first few posts upon replacing in. Again they don't give so much as a guess as to Orto's alignment.

*Ortolan has largely ignored Ojando except for 1 post (post 181). In that post he brings up several scummy points about Ojando but doesn't peruse anything. It looks like distancing or mudslinging more than genuine suspicion.

@Ojando and Ortolan: Why have you ignored each other so much?

I still gotta see if they ignore anyone else to this extent, or failed to give a read on anyone else.

[ortolan]

to be honest I had forgotten he was even alive

and as I said, if he doesn't now claim doctor I will probably vote for him

[ortolan]

It looks like distancing or mudslinging more than genuine suspicion.

What do you mean by distancing

or

mudslinging. Surely you're not trying to have your cake and eat it too?

The reasons we've ignored Ojando: I honestly don't know. I don't recall any content of theirs recently which has stood out. I actually forgot they were in the game when I was doing my process of elimination. I will look at them as I will everyone else. Bear in mind that I specifically drew attention to what I saw as scummy daykill speculation on their part in post 522.

My opinion is that scum seem to have decided either not to submit or are persisting with trying to kill the same person and being stopped somehow.

He seems to already be anticipating the lack of a daykill even before the day has ended, and I really, really don't like the "persisting with trying to kill the same person and being stopped somehow" part. This implies he knows the scum or has inferred the scum

have

targeted the same person two days in a row (and both times it's resulted in a no-kill). He would only know this if he was the doctor who had protected the same person twice in a row and there'd been no kill (and even then he's jumping the gun), or if he's the scum who submitted the kills, or is the scum trying to WIFOM by submitting no kills in the first place.

[J-Scope]

What do you mean by distancing

or

mudslinging.

The difference is that mudslinging groups them among other players that you are already distanced from, whereas distancing is just on the grounds that you and them are at odds.

To be honest I don't know if mudslinging is the right term but I just threw it in there because it sounds like grouping one scum among several townies.

An example of mudslinging:

you just seem to be bandwagoning with a whole bunch of other people who have attacked her "suggestions for approaching the game" style posting.

An here's the possible distancing:

You're bringing a startling lack of substance to the allegations against us. Once you label an original post as "fluff", that obligates us to respond do it, yet all you can say about the response is "oh that's fluff" again. You fail to go into any detail why.

It is just one post though, and I doubt a Orto-Ojando team would make a conscious effort to distance but only do it for such a short period of time.

But enough about you, let's talk about Ojando. Is this the right time for a role claim? Were you for or against the doc claim earlier today, Orto? I thought we settled that the doc, if ever there was one, should only crumb so the mafia don't kill him today.

I'm more than a little concerned that Orto is role fishing here.

[ortolan]

But enough about you, let's talk about Ojando. Is this the right time for a role claim? Were you for or against the doc claim earlier today, Orto? I thought we settled that the doc, if ever there was one, should only crumb so the mafia don't kill him today.

I'm more than a little concerned that Orto is role fishing here.

You realise it is now effectively "tomorrow" as we have voted a no lynch. And again, there is still no reason to anticipate that a scumkill could not happen at any time (unless you have inside knowledge). It's not really role-fishing when I say "if he doesn't claim doctor I'm going to vote him", I'm being very clear in my intentions and in no way am I subtly trying to draw his role out of him. Why did you totally ignore the substance of what I was saying against him in favour of looking for further (nonexistent) connections between us and accusing me of role-fishing?

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Ortolan is town. I don't remember his hydra name. But he's town.

[J-Scope]

You realise it is now effectively "tomorrow" as we have voted a no lynch.

I thought it took 5 votes for a decision today. Adel's VC must be a typo because I only count 7 players. I guess it is twilight.

Why did you totally ignore the substance of what I was saying against him in favour of looking for further (nonexistent) connections between us and accusing me of role-fishing?

Sorry, I'll get to that here.

I feel that both your and Ojando's logic is somewhat flawed because our mod has been V/LA for a week now, which means that scum could only speculate that they're kill was stopped if they sent it during that 11 day period between July 10 and July 21.

More importantly, however, a doc would not logically assume that the kill was sent at a certain point in the day, and thus could not guess if they saved anybody yet.

It's possible that someone like Ojando could speculate as scum, but I don't see how the speculation practically guarantees that they're either scum or doc. So I don't understand yet why you are so certain on this tell. It makes me look for an ulterior motive.

--------------------------
In other news I'm disregarding all problems I have with DGB posts and only counting Plum suspicions in my Zaphod case. Her playstyle is too much of an enigma to me and I feel that I am overreacting when I see how she posts. I have to go see if I had any problem with Plum.

[ortolan]

Jahudo- the thrust of what I was saying is that he instantly jumped to the conclusion "either the mafia is repeatedly trying to kill the same person or are no killing". Why could a no-kill not result from the doctor protecting two different people the mafia targets consecutively? I would see that as way more likely also, I don't see why; if the mafia target someone and get no kill on that night, they would ever target them again the next night. Sure it's subject to WIFOM of the doctor changing their targets, but it's incredibly uncommon. Thus the fact that he says "the mafia is repeatedly targeting the same person" implies to me he is either the doc (in which case he is still jumping the gun) because he knows he targeted the same person on two consecutive days, or he is the scum that submitted the kill. Plus, of course, how did he know the kill wasn't going through today/yesterday (depending how you classify)?

It's possible that someone like Ojando could speculate as scum, but I don't see how the speculation practically guarantees that they're either scum or doc.

I don't regard it as deliberate speculation, I regard it as a slip (which could mean either doc or scum). I am curious as to what ulterior motive you believe I have for bringing this up.

[Ojando]

Jahudo- the thrust of what I was saying is that he instantly jumped to the conclusion "either the mafia is repeatedly trying to kill the same person or are no killing".

I didn’t jump to the conclusion, I said: “There are other options, some discussed so far, some not, but those 2 seem by far the most likely to me.” This very obviously means that I considered the other options and came up with what I thought are the 2 most likely. You are misrepresenting something I was very clear about.

Why could a no-kill not result from the doctor protecting two different people the mafia targets consecutively?

Odds, not only would the doc have to correctly guess the target yesterday, but then guess that after having blocked 1 kill, that the scum would change target, and THEN correctly guess AGAIN who the new target is. Yeah, that’s sooooooo much more likely than the doc realising he was protecting a scum target and sticking with it. There are other options, but I thought they were even less likely.

Sure it's subject to WIFOM of the doctor changing their targets, but it's incredibly uncommon.

So the doc would be stupid to stay on the same target, but scum can obviously work out that the doc will change target so they can stay on the same target? Wow, you’re tying yourself in knots.

Plus, of course, how did he know the kill wasn't going through today/yesterday (depending how you classify)?

I made my big assumption about 24 hours before deadline, and you think I’ve made a huge assumption?

I am curious as to what ulterior motive you believe I have for bringing this up.

Rolefishing, plain and simple.

Here’s a quick rundown of what you’ve done today/yesterday:
You advocate a no-lynch, saying that we should give scum the next kill.
You then attempt to out someone you think is a doctor
You then ‘hammer’ the no-lynch, ensuring that you can now change your target ‘tomorrow’.

This all looks incredibly dodgy to me. The idea that you would advocate giving scum the next kill with no real resistance, then deliberately try and give them a power-role target is absolutely mind-boggling.

No, I won’t claim today, no matter what I am, it would be possibly the stupidest thing in the world to do. You can’t analyse and get a lynch based on my claim, you’ve hammered the no-lynch, all it gives is scum more information. There is no ‘slip’ that I’ve made unless you ignore the qualifying parts of my post.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Softclaims are scummy.

[Adel]

I'm quiting the site, but I'll see this game through.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

I'm quiting the site.

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

[Claus]

I'm taking over the modding of this game. Please give me a day to read over the mod notes/recent game pages.

[Plum]

I'm quiting the site.

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

Alas and alack.

Still at camp. Ojanen gave me vibes of the bad sort before, but no time to read up now; I'm borrowing a friend's laptop briefly and won't really have access for another month.

Basically there's nothing I can say or read up in the time I have, so I'll leave you with the note that I have a very bad gut read on Ojanen, and I think even something on the team they replaces, Hogfather.

Later, all.

[ortolan]

I didn’t jump to the conclusion, I said: “There are other options, some discussed so far, some not, but those 2 seem by far the most likely to me.”

This very obviously means that I considered the other options and came up with what I thought are the 2 most likely.

You are misrepresenting something I was very clear about.

Odds, not only would the doc have to correctly guess the target yesterday, but then guess that after having blocked 1 kill, that the scum would change target, and THEN correctly guess AGAIN who the new target is.

Yeah, that’s sooooooo much more likely than the doc realising he was protecting a scum target and sticking with it.

There are other options, but I thought they were even less likely.

Compare the bolded. Firstly you clearly state you thought those two possibilities were the most likely, but in the second paragraph you attack me by implying I'm suggesting that the doc changing targets is far more likely than the doc sticking with the same target. I am not necessarily implying that at all, I'm questioning your surety that one of the two possibilities is that the doctor protected the same person twice in a row, which certainly to me seems no more likely and on balance less likely than the doctor protecting two different people. Either way I don't like the way you didn't consider this second possibility at all, when it's at least as likely as the first.

So the doc would be stupid to stay on the same target, but scum can obviously work out that the doc will change target so they can stay on the same target? Wow, you’re tying yourself in knots.

Irrelevant.

I made my big assumption about 24 hours before deadline, and you think I’ve made a huge assumption?

Not essential to my attack.

You advocate a no-lynch, saying that we should give scum the next kill.

You then attempt to out someone you think is a doctor

Now this needs some clarification. I said that in the context of assuming EVERYONE would be claiming tomorrow/today depending on whether we've gone through to the next day yet. It meant "When Ojando claims, I expect him to claim doctor or else he is scum". Basically it was meant to put pressure on you because it was a slip, and I viewed it as a scujm-slip rather than a doctor slip because I would think a doctor would be more careful.

You then ‘hammer’ the no-lynch, ensuring that you can now change your target ‘tomorrow’.

I don't quite understand this point.

You mean in the same way a no lynch always entails? What's your point? It reduces the number of suspects assuming the scum kill successfully.

This all looks incredibly dodgy to me.

Scummily expressed.

The idea that you would advocate giving scum the next kill with no real resistance

1) I wasn't the only one voting no lynch, btw.

2) It's standard practice in this scenario.

then deliberately try and give them a power-role target is absolutely mind-boggling.

Let me repeat: if you do not claim doctor, I will vote you (and probably even if you do).

No, I won’t claim today, no matter what I am, it would be possibly the stupidest thing in the world to do.

Yes, claiming in LYOL is a terrible idea, far better to deny ourselves as many chances as possible of catching scum free.

You can’t analyse and get a lynch based on my claim

What?

There is no ‘slip’ that I’ve made unless you ignore the qualifying parts of my post.

I beg to differ.

I think it is time 4 massclaim, I vote Ojando goes first.

[Jahudo]

I think Ojando could just be mis-formed since scum could have killed over a week ago and we still don't know.

But I am also trying to wrap my head around this debate ever since I started to wonder about a Ojando-Orto scumteam. Orto is making this possibility less and less likely I guess.

Maybe nyballs after all. What do you think Orto?

I don't know if massclaim is the best decision yet, but if it is then ojando and nyballs should go earlier than later.

[Jahudo]

EBWOP: He could just be mis

in

formed.

[PoketheAlpaca]

I don't see how that's a soft claim DGB. I'll admit that some of the statements come off between opinion and early actions speculation but I don't see how they gaurantee anyone's role one way or the other or promise future info. No one needs to claim until its truly mass claim time or until they are L-2. I don't think mass claim time needs to happen until the next day or phase finally arrives and or we have 6 people

I'm still wondering if nyball is going to react to some of my recent statements but while I am here I've got to point this out. I think Ortolan may have just made the same tell Nuwen made in the alpha game

The following was said by nuwen (Yosariwen-scum) in the alpha game.

Incamn's crumbing is neutral for now, as there are multiple

data roles

than can be of either alignment and would benefit from early crumbs. Currently a null tell.

And this is what ortolan said in this game.

After Ojanen's last post I am almost certain he is either scum or the

doctor

A scum was caught in alpha because they talked about what they thought was a role slip or crumb. Yosariwen outed Incamn. I think Orto may have done the same in terms of pointing out possible power roles.

[PoketheAlpaca]

Also to be honest with hoopla, K-scope, springluliby, and all of FD now not posting and me and plum being on very shity access I'm begining to wonder if there is a point to continuing this game.

[ortolan]

I think Ortolan may have just made the same tell Nuwen made in the alpha game

Pfft.

Also to be honest with hoopla, K-scope, springluliby, and all of FD now not posting and me and plum being on very shity access I'm begining to wonder if there is a point to continuing this game.

(and Adel leaving). I think I agree with you.

[PokerFace]

I think Ortolan may have just made the same tell Nuwen made in the alpha game

Pfft.

??

Also to be honest with hoopla, K-scope, springluliby, and all of FD now not posting and me and plum being on very shity access I'm begining to wonder if there is a point to continuing this game.

(and Adel leaving). I think I agree with you.

My heart wants to keep playing as I don't like the idea of abandoning any game especially since it started off with an awesome player list but my head looks at where things are activity wise especially from my at home standpoint and I wonder what should be done or if it could be fixed somehow

and the last 2 pta posts were pokerface in case there actually was somebody that could not tell that

[ortolan]

When I say "pfft" I mean it as in "pfft, that's a ridiculous reach on your part; drawing a parallel between this instance and Alpha purely because I have openly stated Ojando is scum or the doctor. I actually suspect Ojando is

scum

rather than the doctor, which is why I said it in the first place.

[Jahudo]

who is the other scum?

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Ojando is scum and I can't believe we're no-lynching instead of kicking that scumbag to the curb.

Woe is me.

unvote, vote: Ojando

- maybe we'll get an extension on account of mod replacement.

[ortolan]

The other scum is nyb; or you

Are we massclaiming or wot?