Mini 829 - Internal Struggle Mafia (Over)

[Toro]

vote: jasonT1981

, because we all know Stewart > Gordon.

[Toro]

No one, (let me emphasize that)

NO ONE

likes Jeff Gordon :p

[Toro]

BLASPHEMY!!!

[Toro]

Point 4 - We are all aware there would be more than one scum... maybe a diversion tatic from you to get others to look elsewhere away yourself?

I'm with #24 here, this certainly sounds real fishy to me. In a game of this size there'd have to be at least

2-3

scum members.

Unvote

[Toro]

I'm considering on putting a vote on hiphop, but his lack of experience sort of is making me feel sympathetic and going against it. But you know what, after rereading his posts, I'm definitely not getting a real townly feeling from him, so...

Vote: hiphop

[Toro]

Making slipups? That's your style?

[Toro]

the first unvoting was inexperience.

Y'know, by your third game I think you'd start to know what's a good move and what's a bad move.

[Toro]

Or...he could be playing us all.































Nah.

[Toro]

Or with 2-3 left, they could just be throwing you under the bus.

[Toro]

For DTMaster : Yeah the #24 was an obvious Jeff Gordon reference.

And it's nice to know that I'm not the only one who thinks that 3 games is too many for the inexperience card.

And how long did it take ryan2754 to write that!?

[Toro]

Why did you assume my vote was random?

I'm not going to say it's obvious, but I would consider it fairly apparent that when hiphop says he believes Ik is "scum number 1" that he is saying, rather, he's suspicious of Ik. Take a look at what hiphop said prior to that,

Umm...you do realize we're talking about your vote on dank right?

[Toro]

Okay, my current list of possible scumminess...(from highest possible threat to lowest)

----------------------------------------------

1

-

hiphop

Why? Playing the newb card after three games is just downright stupid, I belive he's just using it as a coverup for the slipups he made earlier. Plus typically in the games I've played on other forums, the player who places an OMGUS vote (and this time w/o any reason) is 80% of the time scum.

2

-

RedCoyote

Why? After reading back a little bit, I read back on the part where DTM (P84) points out that RC started getting a bit defensive over being put at L-6. Which makes me concerned he's hiding something.

-------------------------------------------------------------

These two are the only two that concern me atm.

And since I guess it's now wrong to vote for those who you believe are scum now. I'll do this.

Unvote

.

[Toro]

Okay, my current list of possible scummies...

----------------------------------------------

1

-

hiphop

Why? Playing the newb card after three games is just downright stupid, I belive he's just using it as a coverup for the slipups he made earlier. Plus typically in the games I've played on other forums, the player who places an OMGUS vote (and this time w/o any reason) is 80% of the time scum.

2

-

RedCoyote

Why? After reading back a little bit, I read back on the part where DTM (P84) points out that RC started getting a bit defensive over being put at L-6. Which makes me concerned he's hiding something.

-------------------------------------------------------------

These two are the only two that concern me atm.

And since I guess it's now wrong to vote for those who you believe are scum now. I'll do this.

Unvote

.

Fixed.

[Toro]

Those in danger of suppression #3:
dank (1) - RedCoyote
hiphop (1) - Zachrulez
Idiotking (1) - jasonT1981
jasonT1981 (1) - Shrinehme
RedCoyote (1) - DTMaster
toro (3) - hiphop, ParadoxZombie, dank

Not Voting (3) - Idiotking, ryan2754, DeathRowKitty

------------------------------

NEW VOTE COUNT

[Toro]

(Hey alex, I unvoted hiphop about a page ago.)

* Oops... Well... Fixed. I always screw up in one of the first votecounts... Thanks for letting me know.

Okay to be honest guys, I'm not the world's greatest scumhunter. Although, sometimes I'll pick up on stuff real easily, so far this game I've got nothing except what you've guys got. Don't cast me off as useless however, as I still am a member of the town.

I'm not liking this argument.

Toro, why would a town player unvote when they have 2 clear suspects?

Because like I quoted, according to you people it's wrong to vote for the guy who you believe is scum, if you have no original reason to. Do I have to post something original about a player I find suspicious in order to vote for them?

And what's wrong with my OMGUS argument?

[Toro]

And what's wrong with my OMGUS argument?

Inexperienced cornered townies also have a tendency to cast OMGUS votes, especially when the pressure starts to dissipate. He did give a reason, although I'm not particularly happy it came after his vote.

/nod.

Who said it's wrong to vote for who you believe is scum? Where do they say that?

Pretty much all the talk about me just jumping on the hiphop bandwagon, the reasons were there for my vote, they just weren't mine.

*Fixed tags.

[Toro]

@ paradoxombie They are not even at this site they are at http://forums.utopiatemple.com/forumdisplay.php?f=26
Pip squeek says Mafia, that game never finished, Final Fantasy VI Mafia, replacement at the end, and currently playing World of Warcraft Mafia.
On this site I am playing http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... c&&start=0 as a replacement in a beginner’s mafia

@shrine The inexperience part was not the unvoting, I unvoted because, as I explained before, it was just a random vote. The inexperience part was not revoting.

You're referring to your IK vote right? Because that wasn't a random vote by you, you gave a non-RVS reason to justify your vote on him.

[Toro]

Mmkay.

[Toro]

Nice activity to catch up to for a change, here are some thoughts that haven't been said that I thought should be pointed out.

@Toro

Your 121 bothers me with this line:

Pretty much all the talk about me just jumping on the hiphop bandwagon,

the reasons were there for my vote, they just weren't mine.

You admit you are weak at scum hunting, but the bolded part doesn't jive well with me since it makes you look like you are going with the town flow.

I

was

going with the flow.

[Toro]

Going with the flow is generally considered suboptimal play, and even scummy by some.

You are expected to think for yourself, and give your own insight in reaction to the events of the game.

A go with the flow attitude, if present in enough players, promotes quick lynching with minimal thought, and as the saying goes short days hurt the town.

Your play style is potentially very dangerous to the town. You need to learn as you go and develop your play style into something that is more than just going with the flow.

Which I'm starting to do.

[Toro]

@dank let me put it another way. If I were to make a list of most likely to be scum, I would make a list, with most suspicious on the top to probably not on the bottom. I would than number them from 1 to how many people are in the game. Therefore when I said scum number 1, I meant the top of my list.

I understand what you might think it meant, but that is not how I intended it to mean. There is no way that anyone can be that certain of scum, the way you thought it means, on day one, until the scum are dead.

So who's your 'scum number one' now?

[Toro]

@Toro You at the moment, for that is the reason I am voting for you, but that may change. A lot of things have happened for day 1, and most likely many more.

*facepalm*

Of course Toro, don't read the votecount.

[Toro]

Of course Toro, don't read the votecount.

Interesting. You're implying that hiphop is jumping on you solely because you have the most votes to your name? Would you say you've played the game much differently? I seem to recall you "following the leader" a bit yourself earlier.

RC, where did I imply that?

Is it just me or do Toro, Jason, and idiotking, seem to be connected in a way?

I'm not connected as I'm not a mason or member of the mafia for that matter. And just because someone agrees with someone (in this case Jason), does not mean that we're connected in anyway. I can see where you get that idea though. And I don't think IdiotKing and I have even spoken to each other in the thread.

[Toro]

There's a difference between 'looking' scummy and 'being' scummy.

[Toro]

Toro, was that in response to anything in particular or just a general comment?

I was just offering my opinion on what you and IK were saying.

[Toro]

RC, where did I imply that?

DTM are you referring to this?

[Toro]

Back from Vegas and am reading up.

[Toro]

@Ryan

Um we don't have any confirmed alignment. How did you do that list?

For all we know it could be Town DRK defending Town RC from tunneling Town IK. (Which is my current interpretation right now unless new evidence comes up)

I think it's premature to look at alignments like that without concrete evidence. It is much more revealing to do action and gauging reaction then question the setup right now. You assume too much when at least 1 of them has to be scum (and the whole team could be the other townies)

Also
Elaborate on: "@Hiphop: Definitely don't like your vote on hiphop for a subpar reason "

Hiphop didn't self vote so what is the corrected version of this line?

Toro just posted a "I'm rereading post so broke free from the prod". The general case against Toro is: he is not contributing to scum hunting, he admits he is going with the flow and he might be stressing the newbie card too much (the last argument is from my own personal notes).

What are your thoughts on the Toro case (once you reread it since you asked for my view point which "might be a little biased" I recommend reading his stuff on your own to make your own opinion to avoid that issue)

BTW you disliked my 338. Elaborate? Or was it DRK's post? Clarify please.

Where did I say I was playing the newbie card? Or where is there any evidence that I'm new to mafia?

[Toro]

@Toro

Here is how you are playing the newbie card:

1. Your join date is July 15 2009. You are fairly new at this fourm (likewise me)

2. (Link to help the town sift)

I point out you are going with the flow in 152.
You point out said you were in 161.
Zach coaches you in 162.
You said you are still developing your style in 163.

This reads as developing newbie (which I'm letting it slide for now but might become an issue in the future). You aren't explicitly playing that card but it's hinted in this exchange.

@RC
I like it since it's good advice. My first newbie game finished an a person got lynched in the second day for fence sitting, going with the town flow, and overplaying the newbie card. (I can meta it now since it's complete. Look at Maij in this game and the case that Exalt pushed on her. )

So whether or not it's scum coaching, or town coaching I still see it as good advice. That exchange is a null-tell to me to establish a link between the two players.

Well, for the record, I'd like to go on saying that I'm in fact not a newb.

[Toro]

Well, for the record, I'd like to go on saying that I'm in fact not a newb.

This really has no bearing... you are a noob to Mafia scum.. I have played mafia for well over a year now on various other sites and this is completely different... so yes, in a way you are still a Noob to Mafia scum.

The way I play here, has been the way I played on other sites and I have found it has brought me alot of trouble here putting me on the radar big time for apparently being scum or at least scummy.. in most if not every game I have played here so far I have been close to being a day one lynch, or at least heavily considered.

Okay, gotcha. So then I am a noob.

354 does not impress me.

Your vote is based off of gut, the reasoning of others and no reasoning of your own.

I think this is just hiphop being hiphop, I don't think him having a vote based on gut is enough to merit a vote from me.

[Toro]

@Toro
Ok. But it makes no sense from that exchange, your game record in your sig, and the join date. If you aren't new at mafia, then you are playing very suspiciously.

By now you

should know that going with the flow is very bad for town game play

if you weren't a newb. It tacks on the bandwagoning case against you, and failing to provide new input for scum hunting.

------
EDIT: After reading the most recent post.

Wait you admit it now after Jason pointed it out? Why the change?

(Also a newb and a noob have diffrent meanings. The former being the more positive one by the way. So if you are implying something from your 398...)

By what Jason meant, I'm new to the website. I was talking about being new to mafia itself.

[Toro]

354 does not impress me.

Your vote is based off of gut, the reasoning of others and no reasoning of your own.

I think this is just hiphop being hiphop

What makes you think this?

Hiphop I believe went off earlier just randomly going with his gut, and just throwing votes around without much real backing on it. He's doing the same here with his vote on IdiotKing.

[Toro]

based on first page rvs interactions i have come to the conclusion that idiotking is scum.

vote: idiotking

Wait, what?

[Toro]

*sigh*

Looks like everybody's suspicious of me. Why don't you just get this damn thing over with and lynch me already?

Then Don's vote will be

proven

to be a bullshit vote, DRK and RC will be shown to be tunneling me (I admit I'm tunneling them, but that doesn't mean I don't still see them as scum), and a whole lot of info will be gained for the town.

Is this OK with everyone? I'm tired of going around and around with this.

Roleclaim: Vanilla Townie

I won't even be missed. Just end this stupidity, please.

You've got two votes on you and this prompts you to roleclaim? You are in no danger of being lynched atm!

[Toro]

I'm with Zach, it was a weird time to bring it up.

Vote: Idiotking

[Toro]

@RC

Response your 444:

No I disagree that a townie should just get their vote on the table when they are

not fully informed of the most recent activity

, even if this is day one. I don't mind point out suspicion based on the earlier comments, but I expect a person at least to read the most recent pages. An informed vote is much better then an uninformed vote.

@Shrine
I thought I said I voted for a pressure vote, I guess I wasn't clear enough. My 414 was before the claim, my willing to move it was shown after the claim.

@Myself
After some reflection, I hand the towel to don. Don will reply as he wills and depending on the night results I'll continue my case on him. That doesn't mean I'll let you go without answering me once you have caught up on the game.

IGMEOY: don

Personally I favour a Toro lynch above IK or Jason. If you read his posts in isolation you'll see very little analyzation and very little content to get a read on.

Jason posted a very good summary post in his ISO 16, but twisted his ankle with his DRK case.

IK gave us a good read with his quote wars, and his most recent vote on don (similar arguments that apply to me apply to IK as well). I was hesitant to vote for IK due to his town meta, but a lot of scum points were added on in the recent exchange.

Toro though played the newbie card (at least from my perspective he did) when he wasn't one. (See Toro's 393, 400 )

He doesn't actively scum hunt, the closest was in his iso 11, which is 17 days ago from that post (take into account he was V/LA though) But he does defend Hiphop in his ISO 29 and 31, abet the points are already known then.

He admits he was going with the flow in his ISO 18.

A lot of his statements make him look like he is actively lurking. A pro-town player should be going into the fray and getting information, not potentially starting fires here and there. (See ISO 23 and 24, 32)

I'm open again to the other two like RC is but Toro reads as: very lurkerish which is dangerous to keep up since it's anti-town (note not necessarily scummy, but very anti-town). His contributions to the town are very nil and I want to see more done if he really is town aligned.

Unvote

Vote: Toro

DTM, is this the case you're asking me to respond to?

[Toro]

Toro though played the newbie card (at least from my perspective he did) when he wasn't one. (See Toro's 393, 400 )

New to the forum? Yes. New to mafia? No.

He doesn't actively scum hunt, the closest was in his iso 11, which is 17 days ago from that post (take into account he was V/LA though) But he does defend Hiphop in his ISO 29 and 31, abet the points are already known then.

Ain't gettin' much reads in this one.

He admits he was going with the flow in his ISO 18.

Yeah.

A lot of his statements make him look like he is actively lurking. A pro-town player should be going into the fray and getting information, not potentially starting fires here and there. (See ISO 23 and 24, 32)

Like I said, I'm not getting as much reads in this one.

I'm open again to the other two like RC is but Toro reads as: very lurkerish which is dangerous to keep up since it's anti-town (note not necessarily scummy, but very anti-town). His contributions to the town are very nil and I want to see more done if he really is town aligned.

Unvote

Vote: Toro

This is your case? You've just repeated what other people have said before.

And a Toro bandwagon is definitely not going to help this town get anywhere, trust me.

[Toro]

BTW IK

New to the forum? Yes. New to mafia? No.

I played several games on another site before I joined this one. Things are completely different here than pretty much anywhere else. You could be a pro on another site and a newb on here. Which is why I'm willing to give Toro a little slack. The reason I don't want to give Hiphop any is because he's

been

on this site and is still acting this way.

It was my impression that this was Hiphops first game on this site as well. He only mentioned three games on another site to my memory. Hiphop, care to clarify? Toro, how many games have you played bfore?

I agree that Hiphop has been opportunistic at times but his unvote of you at L-1 doesn't fit. I think Toro is far more suspicious one because of both his jumps onto hip hop and you came at very opportune moments, and his unvote of hiphop was when he came under pressure. I mean just looking at his vote on you, how can that not be called opportune? Also he claims that he normally notices more but now all he can see are popular wagons? I'll agree that Toro's play looks like a newer player, but not particularly new town.

IK, do you think if Toro continued to play this way all game you wouldn't suspect him?

On mafiascum this is my 2nd game. Not used to the style you all play here as typically on the other games I played on another site it's more fast-paced and we're mostly cracking jokes at eachother, we're not constantly buried in scumhunting mode.

[Toro]

And a Toro bandwagon is definitely not going to help this town get anywhere, trust me.

Why should we trust you? What have you done that actually helps the town?

@Paradoxombie You got it right, no need to clarify. This is my first game on this site.

i think you are most likely town, but i still think you are a good day 1 lynch. i'll move to jason, but i would rather be sure about you first so as to help qualify my suspicions of everyone now involved. anyone have a better idea?

dj- How can you think that lynching someone who most likely is town a good day? In fact how can you even keep your vote on someone who you think is most likely town? There are plenty of more options than to lynch someone whom you think is more likely scum. You sound as if you are pushing for his lynch purely for information. As I said in post 307, pushing for a lynch of someone purely for information is scummy.

Fos: don_Johnson

I understand I haven't helped the town much so far, but I can potentially become a game-changing force in this game.

[Toro]

My opinion hasn't changed since my last post.

Toro's response to DTM was extremely subpar.

I feel IK's lynch would give information and what not, and has sparked debate, but I am less suspicious of him than I was before. I agree that his second go around with trying to get the wagon on him again is a move scum WOULDN'T make.

As for Jason, his 500 seemed more like an attempt to fit in and act as though he was scumhunting. Doesn't seem genuine.

I as well have a weird feeling about DRK's most recent post.

Well did you want me to spend my time writing paragraphs to try and defend myself?

[Toro]

I'll approve of a deadline extension, as long as I'm not being offed.

[Toro]

@IK: You really

really

want to lynch the town roleblocker? Do it.

[Toro]

'cause I wanted to clear my name. Why else?

[Toro]

I don't see the difference why it would matter.

[Toro]

@IcemanE

WEEELLLLCOME! :3 I expect a good summary post on day two since today is deadline day.

@Toro
Awesome, you just full claimed. /sarcasm.

It doesn't change the fact that you are one of 2 prime NK targets if you are a PR, but it does almost confirm your township since there hasn't been a CC yet. You still deserve a

IGMIOY: Toro

simply because of your play, but I wouldn't heavily enforce it.

@RC
Ah I see, well that would me my fault of misinterpreting your statement. I agree that alone my case on Jason isn't sufficient towards a Jason lynch, but it's still part of the whole town case on him. That is the power of the township, discussions in thread lead us to expand and build on top of each other's cases/posts to hopefully catch scum :3

Also it's understandable that you are not as comfortable with my alignment since some of my actions/posts have a scummy interpretation. The game wouldn't be interesting if everyone had a black and white (town/scum) play wouldn't it?

For now all I can ask is just keep your eye on me and make your own judgment.

@Jason
You ignored my posts for a while, I questioned you a while back now... >>;;

@Town
I won't have computer access for most of the day so I might not be here if any new development happens. It's a bad time since it's deadline day but I'll try and get to a place with computer access soon. So consider my vote psudo-locked :<

Figures you'd still suspect me because of my play.

[Toro]

@ryan7254: Unbelievably, I actually picked DRK.

[Toro]

It was a crapshoot really, had IK not've died I would've selected him to be roleblocked N1.

[Toro]

Do those of you who think DRK and I were together, do you honestly think that the mafia would've just thrown DeathRowKitty, a more active player, under the bus rather than the guy who just checks in whenever he has time? Just saying 'I don't believe' and just throwing down a vote on a PR is just stupid.

[Toro]

Well DJ, I don't know how many times I have to say it...

I'm the TOWN Roleblocker.

[Toro]

@DJ: Paradox 703

[Toro]

And

Vote: Zachrulez

Are you ****ing kidding me? We've already got a couple of PR roles walking about, and you want to out another one?

[Toro]

Welcome to the game of

RISK =/= REWARD!

Vote: Toro

Will Toro flip as the Town Roleblocker? Or the Town Roleblocker? Who knows!?

Go on, do it. Just vote for me and you'll all see.

[Toro]

Zach, DeathRow, and Jason weren't even on my list while I was in the game. Wow.