Mini 829 - Internal Struggle Mafia (Over)

[DeathRowKitty]

Odd...quotes from two of Zach's posts:

Will be V/LA August 10-14

I will be leaving for my trip later today, and will be back on Wednesday.

Anyone want to roll a die?

[Paradoxombie]

Odd...quotes from two of Zach's posts:

Will be V/LA August 10-14

I will be leaving for my trip later today, and will be back on Wednesday.

Anyone want to roll a die?

He said he's back on wednesday but may not be around to post for a couple more days.

[DTMaster]

Just dropping in since I didn't get a chance to do my summary post. I'll be able to sit down and reread around 6-7PM MST (more IRL plans) till then. For now I'll just answer the following questions since I'm really tired (midnight here):

@DRK

See 296:

1. I was referring to your 270.
2. Yes it is very arguable for both interpretations. But at that time I found it more valid that IK was heavily tunneling. Recently his focus has been shifted towards hiphop (who I admit has his scummy/suspicious moments is also an easier target).
3. RC doesn't have to be lying for IK to be townie that is tunneling. We can WIFOM debate here, but that just gets confusing.

@Jason

It might be semantics but I believe there is a difference between 100% certainty (see your ISO 11) and just being cautious.

My little statement is found in my ISO 18. Its not a direct question but comment (worried about those walls. Rereading them is a toughie)

Jason your latest post bothers me again.

Mod: Where did toro vote himeslf? I don't remember him doing that.

*Remember when I told you that your mind could play games with you? Well... it seems to playing games with me too... After all, I'm your subconscience.

I double checked this list. It should be fine.

I'm very happy with the activity so far. Keep up the good work!

------------------

Those in danger of suppression #6:

dank (1)

-

RedCoyote

hiphop (2)

-

Zachrulez, ryan2754

jasonT1981 (1)

-

DeathRowKitty

RedCoyote (1)

-

DTMaster

toro (3)

-

hihop, Paradoxombie, dank

Not Voting (4)

-

Idiotking, Shrinehme, Toro, jasonT1981

Happiness with Posting Level:

HAPPY!

Mod's State of Mind:

UNSTABLE

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

This is the latest vote count show that no one is in danger of getting lynched. Votes become dangerous at two times:

1. A deadline day.
2. At the end game.

We are at neither position. So I cannot see the "danger" that you present from voting. By withholding your vote and being cautious, I see more scumminess then township. This is a bit WIFOMish but it is one way to limit the use of your voting record in a case against you. Also this leaves you open to every bandwagon when an opportunity arises and cause a mislynch.

Unvote

[/b] Vote: Jason [/b]

@Town
I'm tired so I might have missed something, can you point out something that you addressed to me that I might have forgotten?

@MOD

Unstable flavour lols. But worry some at the same time D:.

* Err... Did I miss something?

[RedCoyote]

Third parties are not town. Power roles are town. Masons are town. Miller... I don't know what a miller is, but if it's not town, then it's not town. None of these possibilities interfere with the question in the way I presented it.

No, the way you presented it was by asking DRK if she thought I was the most townie player ever or the most obvious scumbag ever. You have since corrected yourself, but the way you originally presented without degrees implies that the player has no fair options. Additionally, you didn't ask if I was town or not, you asked if I town OR scum.

1. Am I ignoring hiphop now?

No, but that's besides the point. This aspect of my case is your unwillingness to use your vote on players you see as very scummy. This implies that you want to try to get on record that you are calling people scummy, but you don't want your vote to count against them for other reasons.

When [DRK] said townie, I think my response was 'fair enough'.

Because of DRK's position on me, do you or do you not think he is buddying?

If RC dies instead, I know absolutely whether I'd pursue DRK or not.

Ik is guilty of lining up lynches here. If I am lynched and flip scum, Ik is "absolutely" going to pursue DRK. If I am scum, DRK is scum. This sort of position implies that the player has more information about the other players than he is letting on. This sort of position willingly ignores changes that naturally happen in the game (lurkers showing up/replacements/information from power roles/information from night kills/etc). Town players tend not to commit their future votes on anyone, depending on the circumstances, because they do not have as much information as scum do.

So you'd rather the town have no info on D2?

This is obviously not what hiphop was arguing, but I think he answered this very well. I just wanted to point out that here Ik seems to be really laying it on thick.

---

My problem isn't so much that I don't like your case but that it's a case built on a weak foundation. And that seems to be what RC was looking for. It makes sense to be suspicious of RC for his original post, he know's that. When DTM voted him for it, RC poked back. They have one or two big quote posts and DTM soon drops it in favor of better suspects. RC likewise gave you a chance to explore your suspicion within reason, but you only continued to escalate a case built on a very weak premise, that RC was lying about his gambit. Nothing I see suggests that, and his pushing a case on you furthers my belief that he is authentically scumhunting through that original gambit.

This seems pretty accurate to me. I still don't necessarily agree with your conclusion, that we should jump on jason, because I'm not convinced that Ik is a prideful (stubborn) townie. I still lean more scum than anything with Ik, but unlike Ik, I'm completely open to the possibility that my suspicions are going in the wrong direction.

---

Any reason why you would not respod with a answer?

Because, each town has to figure out a reasonable posting pace for the majority of the players. Obviously it's been made clear that this town is not comfortable with too much verbosity. This is fine, and I can live with it, but it's going to necessarily come at the expense of some things being not responded to because they've already been addressed.

Since you asked a second time, I'll be happy to answer. The reason I didn't answer was because we basically reached a stalemate, like with so many other of our points. I do deny it would've been possible for me to get the same information about DTM, Ik, or DRK had I put the reasoning in my infamous post. Paradox sums it up pretty nicely in post 313.

[Paradoxombie]

My problem isn't so much that I don't like your case but that it's a case built on a weak foundation. And that seems to be what RC was looking for. It makes sense to be suspicious of RC for his original post, he know's that. When DTM voted him for it, RC poked back. They have one or two big quote posts and DTM soon drops it in favor of better suspects. RC likewise gave you a chance to explore your suspicion within reason, but you only continued to escalate a case built on a very weak premise, that RC was lying about his gambit. Nothing I see suggests that, and his pushing a case on you furthers my belief that he is authentically scumhunting through that original gambit.

This seems pretty accurate to me. I still don't necessarily agree with your conclusion, that we should jump on jason, because I'm not convinced that Ik is a prideful (stubborn) townie. I still lean more scum than anything with Ik, but unlike Ik, I'm completely open to the possibility that my suspicions are going in the wrong direction.

You've got me wrong here, but I can see why you'd think this. I still suspect IK, but I don't see much point in voting him more. I have a large sample of his play and want to explore other suspects to compare and make the best final choice. If there was a deadline now I'd vote IK.

Also, I've already unvoted Jason. And even when I was voting him I didn't think we should pile on him. I just wanted to pressure him to give us more of his perspective.

[RedCoyote]

EBWOP: No, the way you presented it was by asking DRK if

he

thought I was the most townie player ever or the most obvious scumbag ever.

Sorry, it's the Kitty part that gets me.

Paradox, I didn't mean to imply that you were trying to get us to pile on jason unjustly. I suspect jason as well.

I'm also a little worried that Toro will be overwhelmed when he gets back.

[alexhans]

Those in danger of suppression #12:

hiphop (2)

-

Zachrulez, ryan2754

Idiotking (4)

-

DeathRowKitty, RedCoyote, hiphop, jasonT1981

jasonT1981 (1)

-

DTMaster

RedCoyote (1)

-

Idiotking

Zachrulez (1)

-

Paradoxombie

Not Voting (3)

-

Shrinehme, Toro, don_johnson

Happiness with Posting Level:

SATISFIED

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

[alexhans]

As an advice... I will quote the most important rule...

THE RULES:

Fundamental:

* Enjoy. This is a game.

By the way, I'm gonna go on a mini-vacation for the weekend 15-16-17 (monday is a holiday here) but I will check the thread at least once a day so there should be no problem.

I intend to set a deadline when I come back. Based on the activity levels.

[DeathRowKitty]

EBWOP: No, the way you presented it was by asking DRK if

he

thought I was the most townie player ever or the most obvious scumbag ever.

Sorry, it's the Kitty part that gets me.

Don't know what I was thinking when I made my username >.<

[hiphop]

It is really slow, without an idk post, and with some players V/La.

When do you think don should be able to make his first substantial post?

We still have at least a week to point as many fingers as necessary.

What bothers me about IDK is that he doesn’t seem to have any major ties. If he is scum he should have some ties. Anyone want to comment on this?

[DeathRowKitty]

Interesting thought there hiphop. We know his top three suspects are RC, me, and you. I looked back and I found this in one of IK's posts:

I get townie reads from:

Ryan
Paradoxombie
DTM
Shrine
Zach (when he posts)
Dank (haven't heard anything from the replacement, so I can't say one way or the other)

I'd count toro and jason as town if they'd post more, but due to recent inactivity, I can't tell one way or the other. Perhaps toro would lean slightly to the scummy side for not making significant posts and seemingly avoiding getting into the discussion voluntarily. As for jason, I haven't seen anything he's done jump out and bite me as suspicious, except for the inactivity (I'm always paranoid when people with computer problems can still log on often enough to not be prodded, and yet don't make any posts).

The big question (and one that can't be answered without a lot of WIFOM) is this: where in his list of suspicions should we be looking?

The obvious place to look is his list of town reads, since scum would want to make their buddies look good. Unfortunately, most scum wouldn't do that since it would be too obvious. If we instead consider his scum list, either he's done a great job of distancing or you're the only possibility. Remember that he never voted for you. That could be one tie (of course you know whether or not this is the case).

However, if we count the names IK's given, there are two players missing: Jason and toro, who he excluded because they haven't posted enough recently. He says toro is leaning towards scummy, which (WIFOM aside), sounds like a good place to put your scumbuddies. He said Jason was leaning town, which could be a safe spot to put a scumbuddy who's come under a little pressure, though leaning scum would (IMO) be better.

(Hopefully I'm not giving you any ideas), but the natural place to try to list your scumbuddies is near the middle, but slightly scummy if possible (both of my scumbuddies listed me as "leaning scum" in my last game). Of course, scum could see this and just list their buddies as pro-town, so there's only so much you can take from this. Honestly, if scum are playing well, you shouldn't be able to make correct links (if scum are playing really well, you shouldn't be able to catch them to begin with).

@IK
Can you elaborate on your townie read on dank? I know he's been replaced, but I want to know.

[Idiotking]

@IK
Can you elaborate on your townie read on dank? I know he's been replaced, but I want to know.

Nothing he ever did jumped out at me as scummy, for one. His dealings with the other players seemed pretty level-headed, especially when under fire for the scum #1 from hiphop issue.


@Town: I've already said I'm willing to die to prove my innocence and make my case known to be the case of a townie. If the majority of the town wants me to claim, I'll claim right now.

And due to lack of time (I'm going to college in the next two weeks, so I might be gone for a while/request replacement depending on how hellish it is getting used to dorm life) I can't respond to all the statements that have been made since my last post.

If there's any question I missed or major issue you guys think I need to address, please tell me and I'll get around to it as soon as I can.

Again, my apologies, and if it gets too rough I'll request a replacement so the game isn't messed up.

But from the way things look, I'm gonna be the lynch today anyway, so meh

[DeathRowKitty]

@IK
Let's say for sake of argument that you're town and somehow you can see into the future and you know that if you're lynched, we still won't go after RC Day 2. Would you still be as willing to be a martyr for your cause?

[DTMaster]

Urk. Meta signals tingling. Something feels wrong here. Town thoughts?

Note: Martyrdom is part of IK's town play, supported by DRK and IK's link. Even if it could be sub-optimal martyr play.

I'll post a few thoughts of my own for now while Jason sorts his computer problems.

@RC
Your 328 somewhat bugs me for a minor reason.

1. I read some points as conflicting Mafia Game Play Ideologies which to me is a null tell (see 305 and 306 analysis), not a scum tell. Its a repeat in what I stated earlier, but I see it again.

@IK
BTW for your info: A miller is a weird role. It's town, but to all cop investigations shows up as guilty. So like a psudo-scum aligned townie. It usually acts like a title to attach to a PR usually. :p

I would rather focus on looking at Toro, Zach and Jason right now but they are V/LA or having issues. So for now: Don Status report!

I'm going to do a hiphop reread right now as well. Gut is bugging me with the IK vote right now.

[DTMaster]

Er EBWOP: Even if it is sub-optimal martyr play.

[hiphop]

@drk You said martyr for his cause. There are two ways he can martyr for. His cause could be for the scum. How do not know that, if he is mafia, he is willing to die to throw suspicion away from his buddies? You said that I am the the only possibillity, right now. If he is lynched and he turns out scum, no doubt more suspcion would be thrown my way. Then again that is all WIFOM. I lose no matter what happens. I still think he is scum, so my vote remains.

[DTMaster]

@Hiphop

That would give a ton of serious busing for his scum mates for that theory. Plus it is really, really, I mean really, sub-optimal to martyr for his scum buddies on day one. (I would make it sub-sub-sub optimal).

If IK flips scum it would mean we would need to double check DRK and RC for busing, not just you. I doubt it would be "that easy" that scum-IK would out his buddies in a busing maneuver like this.

Suspicion is thrown your way for reasons different from this though (ie I have issues with your vote since it looks like you just slipped in with some repetitive comments and placed a non-suspect vote behind the wall duels/quote wars)

[alexhans]

Those in danger of suppression #13:

hiphop (2)

-

Zachrulez, ryan2754

Idiotking (4)

-

DeathRowKitty, RedCoyote, hiphop, jasonT1981

jasonT1981 (1)

-

DTMaster

RedCoyote (1)

-

Idiotking

Zachrulez (1)

-

Paradoxombie

Not Voting (3)

-

Shrinehme, Toro, don_johnson

Happiness with Posting Level:

DISSAPOINTED

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

[don_johnson]

mod: v/la through august 19th

*You mean until 19th?

i will have some access and will make the effort to get caught up. i am sorry but this timing was unforeseen.

[DeathRowKitty]

Note: Martyrdom is part of IK's town play, supported by DRK and IK's link. Even if it could be sub-optimal martyr play.

I agree that does make things more difficult, but IK does have some strange ideas about optimal play.

Day 1 of the game that was brought up earlier, IK replaced in (as detective) and became suspicious of Magnus_orion (magnus was town, but was basically a miller (his twin was scum and they were essentially reversed)). He investigated Magnus Night 1 and found guns, which he then claimed the following day. An argument then ensued and IK kept insisting the real cop should counterclaim if he was lying. Here was the explanation he gave:

A mislynch is a small price to pay, when scum could be gotten a day earlier and without two nightkills (the first nightkill and then the nightkill after the scum dies the next day)? You're not understanding something here. There is more to this than the mislynch. Let me spell this out clearly for you:

Same setup we have here, with one claimed cop who says that another player is scum due to investigation results. Let's say the claimed cop isn't the real cop, and the real cop keeps his mouth shut. The fakecop gets his way, the townie is lynched. Woohoo for scum! There's a nightkill, so two dead townies thusfar. The fakecop defends himself the next day, saying he's insane or paranoid or some shit. If that doesn't work, he's lynched. So one dead scum. Then the scum get another nightkill. That's 3 dead townies.

Three.

Dead.

Townies.

You following?

Reset the situation, the fakecop claims the other guy is scum. The real cop pipes up and convinces the town that he's telling the truth. The fakecop is lynched, scum dead. The mafia get a nightkill, they kill the cop. Boohoo. The next day starts, the town minus a cop, the scum minus a buddy.

3 dead townies with one dead scum is much less preferable than one dead PR and one dead scum. Come on, try and tell me I'm wrong here.

If he's town and he doesn't think we'll lynch any of his suspects tomorrow, he should be in an even worse situation. We'd be lynching a townie today, the scum would get a NK, we'd be lynching a townie tomorrow in his mind, and the scum would get another NK. Even at best, in his mind, we'd be losing a townie today, the scum would get a NK, we'd lynch scum tomorrow (if we follow his suggestions, he thinks tomorrow's lynch is going to hit scum), and the scum would get a NK. That's basically the same 3 for 1 trade-off he advocated

against

in his other game. Of course, it doesn't make sense to me if he's scum either, which then brings us to a WIFOM situation. There is one way I could see it working out very well as scum. He could be saying he's alright with dying so we think he's a townie. He's already offered to claim (no reason he should unless the deadline is set and he's the inevitable lynch candidate) and he might be scum ready to claim a townie PR to get a townie lynched Day 1, leading to his 3 for 1 tradeoff, which in his mind, is good play.

Either way, his martyr play isn't good for his cause (unless he's jester, but I highly doubt that). Honestly, I think he would be just as likely, if not more likely, to do this as scum.

Mod's disappointed in our activity. We have to step up our posting. I think ryan said he plans on posting today and tomorrow, Zach and toro come back. Hopefully that will help our posting, but those of us who are here do need to start posting more (me included).

[DTMaster]

@Mod

Sniff. Nooo! I have disappointed you!

@DRK
That meta also supports his extreme views as a townie as well. (potential point to support my difference of opinion thought)

But I agree with that assessment. As it stands right now town-IK could be easily tunneling on a town-RC (which worries me right now since if this is true scum is taking the back seat on this) for all the right reasons in the wrong way. I view martyr play as desperate and anti town for the reason that if you were town you should be worried about scum hunting, not self voting to prove a point.

There are a lot of risks involved with that play if you do that.

We also have the issue of today being day 1 just due to no concrete evidence of confirmed townies/scum.

[alexhans]

@Mod

Sniff. Nooo! I have disappointed you!

Totally, I was expecting you to go:

Knock, knock, knock...

Mod...

Knock, knock, knock...

Mod...

Knock, knock, knock...

Mod...

[DTMaster]

"tries to excuse himself to do the lack of content to analyze due to the V/LAs"
"fails"
"is struck by blue lightning"

[Idiotking]

@IK
Let's say for sake of argument that you're town and somehow you can see into the future and you know that if you're lynched, we still won't go after RC Day 2. Would you still be as willing to be a martyr for your cause?

Yes. I know the case I've built isn't absolutely rock solid, but it's information. Even if it doesn't cause the town to investigate RC on D2, it may still help if you or RC ever DO come under fire. Information is information.

@IK
BTW for your info: A miller is a weird role. It's town, but to all cop investigations shows up as guilty. So like a psudo-scum aligned townie. It usually acts like a title to attach to a PR usually. :p

Ah, thank you! Last game I played I got screwed by twin millers. It was weird.



DRK, if you think I'm saying that I'm willing to die just so I can look more town-ish, then go ahead and kill me already and stop wasting the town's time.

[DeathRowKitty]

DRK, if you think I'm saying that I'm willing to die just so I can look more town-ish, then go ahead and kill me already and stop wasting the town's time.

Okay!

Daykill: Idiotking

. Oh darn, it didn't work...

Here's my thoughts for a few possible lynch candidates at the moment:

Idiotking

-I still think there's a good chance he's scum. Additionally, he would be a pretty good information lynch. His views on

everyone

have already been explicitly layed out and he's been fairly polarizing.

jasonT1981

-His lynch gives us a decent shot at hitting scum, though not as good as an IK lynch. His lynch wouldn't be as good in terms of information since he really hasn't posted much. If anything, jasonscum would most likely mean hiphoptown.

hiphop

-His lynch would be by far (IMO) our best information lynch. He was the target of an early bandwagon and people's actions towards him during and since could be a great lead Day 2. Unfortunately, I have a feeling we would be lynching a townie.

If everyone could at least post a top 3 scum list, it could help fuel some activity and (more importantly), get everyone's opinions out in the open.