DHSDSM beta: Game Over.

[Ojando]

Hello!
We have both mostly caught up now. (SWSWC, the answer to your wondering is implied in the previous sentence and in our sig.)

A few thoughts from the catch up.

PtA post 28

I agree with everyhting PF has said.
Ill reread later.

Not only pointless, both sentences are off, reread 20 game posts? There is almost nothing to agree on too.
Ortohoops post 39

It's almost kind of ironic that my non-game related post has sparked more game related discussion than almost all the random votes.

I dislike implying credit for discussion by doing something questionable.
Also not quite seeing how the RVS questions from ortohoops to incamn and PtA to Yosariwen actually were meant to advance the game - they seem like questions for the sake of appearing to ask questions (also Yos never answered and PtA didn't seem to care)

PtA (populartajo)48"I'll post soon I promise" after getting that flak for fluff? Probably not even reading the thread but worried about looking like a lurker?
PtA 50 PBPA Confused ("DGBHoopla", this from someone who calls their playstyle meta-based??) and consisting of simple facts and feelings. No conclusions reached. Pseudo-participation.

We dislike Zaphod 141 A&B section. A&B was finito already. Don't see any other reason for this to be there than just to self-congratulate, playing up that their hydra was eagerly calling for the finishing votes of the lynch.

Ortohoops 154 - ortolan is defending Hoopla's fluff with fluff.

Poptajo is pity-fishing in 159. DGB's earlier display of bummedness could be in the same manipulative category although we're a little blind on the meta surrounding that.

Zmd is generally empty on content. Post 168, the only that has multiple comments, seems to be reads from gut that will not give us much. Please elaborate. The reason voiced for Trotsky's scummyness (relatively many posts first 2 pages), for example, would apply also to other players (like Pta, who Zmd declares town).

Frod Dodging, not sure how well the 4)Hogfather part in your latest post matches with reality, did you miss post 75?


Essentially we agree that the PoketheAlpaca seems the best lynch at the moment. Fluff crimes. Vagueness. After getting under heavier fire throwing suspicion without substantive points to back up the calling of the quick lynches. Apparently they sorted their thoughts on aim but one head doesn't seem to know what the other is doing. Pokerface uses ortohoops' comment "scum would avoid blatantly scummy and only slightly beneficial behaviour" as questionable in his attack against ortohoops. Next poptajo defends himself against ortohoops using the very same argument. Basically displaying pseudo in aspect after aspect.

vote: PoketheAlpaca

[Ojando]

Ortohoops post 39

It's almost kind of ironic that my

non-game related post

has sparked more game related discussion than almost all the random votes.

I dislike implying credit for discussion by doing something questionable.

You haven't actually explained why her action was "questionable", you just seem to be bandwagoning with a whole bunch of other people who have attacked her "suggestions for approaching the game" style posting.

See the bolded part from the quote. I wouldn't have thought that needed clarification in this game. Post wasting is inherently bad, since it was on first page I labeled it questionable instead of a stronger word.

Also not quite seeing how the RVS questions from ortohoops to incamn and PtA to Yosariwen actually were meant to advance the game - they seem like questions for the sake of appearing to ask questions (also Yos never answered and PtA didn't seem to care)

What is the point here? What have you concluded from the fact they didn't bother to answer our questions?

Incamn did answer your question. Yos didn't answer PTA. The point was that the question from Hoopla and especially the questions from PTA seemed artificial to me. Since I didn't see the point of the questions, Yos not answering didn't drive me to conclusions. PTA not following up drove me to the conclusion that he wasn't that interested in the answers, which supported the thought of the chit-chatty nature of the questions. This is now a bit dated since PTA claimed in his last post he was trying some kind of a meta trap.

Ortohoops 154 - ortolan is defending Hoopla's fluff with fluff.

You're bringing a startling lack of substance to the allegations against us. Once you label an original post as "fluff", that obligates us to respond do it, yet all you can say about the response is "oh that's fluff" again. ... ....

That did come out more in a self-note mode.
We were referring to the "the other half did it" defence. Your heads seem to have very different take on things and that could be a convenient way to contradict yourself without having to take responsability. That being said, at the moment we are much more interested in pursuing PtA whose heads contradict timewise simultaneously in their attack and defence.


@Raging Wishbone

This ain't the Alpha game, I know Tajo will flip town and it ain't cause I am scum! But than again he aint getting lynched today I hope!

This is the second time you say strongly that you find PTA town, I wish you would just get on and give your reasons for thinking so already.
You call Ortohoops' case on Yos brilliant, but at the same time that case relied mostly on the suspicion that PTA is scum. Contradiction?

[Ojando]

@Raging Wishbone

The main reason I claim PokaTajo is town is because of this post, I went through and read all of his links and he makes a good case (So on one hand Poker makes a damn good Lawyer and could have defended OJ 'j/k", on the other he does come across as being honest.... at this point I think his post makes complete sense and that is why I think he is town!

...[cut]...

This is the second time you say strongly that you find PTA town, I wish you would just get on and give your reasons for thinking so already.
You call Ortohoops' case on Yos brilliant, but at the same time that case relied mostly on the suspicion that PTA is scum. Contradiction?

I thought Poker's post was extremely articulate, reasoned well...and if you clicked on every link he pointed out, well then you have done as much homework as me... If you ain't then don't talk to me! j/k, lol

The Pokerface post you were referring to is 182.
(viewtopic.php?p=1674373#1674373)

However,

However, 17 posts before that, in 165 you said:

Sorry all, me and RR are also trying to keep up with this game, but we are consumed by another game right now.... I think PoketheAlpace is a bad lynch!
... ... ...
Alpha should be over tomorrow by midnight, so I will do a reread and try to post further thoughts at the end of the week if not sooner. The reason, I think this post is important is again because I think Pokethealpace is a BAD lynch and I am responding to questions asked...

Your "main reason" doesn't match up to the timeline. This seems like a major internal inconsistency in your thought process (coming from the same head of the hydra).
Also, I continue to see your opinion of Ortohoops' Yos case being brilliant as a contradiction. Your description of what Yosariwen is posting doesn't seem to remotely match what I see them writing. Present your case/accusations with relevant parts from Yos quoted please.

[Ojando]

"Another one Bites the dust"... I think it is safe to now assume A & B lied about killing FrogDodge and submitted a Sex wi5th Ed kill... Thanks.. Two down, two to go.... Hmmm.......

Umm, no.
I find it utterly strange that you are or pretend to be so clueless about the game mechanic when this has been spelled out to you already, IIRC after the lynch of A&B. SWSWC was killed ridiculously much later than 30 hours after A&B's last breath, so it can't have been A&B.
Either Frog dodging had protection or then A&B lied to piss them of or something. And we must still have someone alive outside of the mafia that can kill.

I am not going to change my opinion of how off it feels for Yos to defend Nuwen, however I will give you this point they WERE scum in Alpha and I absolutely do not feel they are scum here anymore. Dude she kicked our asses in Heavens Gates, so for him to say she is inexperienced is off in my humble opinion. Regarding your further comments again me and Nuwen simulposted... My response was NOT to her aim logs...

Yosarian said that their case on you guys was originally Nuwen's read. That's the only thing I can understand you were referring to, this whole inexperienced thing comes from alpha and imo never surfaced in beta. Even though you changed your mind, unless you convincingly explain your thought process about where exactly you thought Yos was defending Nuwen ITT (with quotes) I'm gonna perceive that accusation as twisted enough to be quite scummy.

So basically my choices for scum are unlikely to be lynched, so I should mindlessly follow everyone else? Riiiiight.

The problem is you're not putting any arguments forward or making any case. You've just been putting forward a lone vote based on impression, or voicing your suspicions based on something you haven't even bothered to look up again ("Gut. And I think he made a vote I didn't like the timing of" about why our predecessor was scummy to you). This method marginalizes your contributions very much.

It depends on which half. The half that likes to lurk to victory is also the one that tunnels like mad when town. So seesawing and lurking would lean scum - heavily.

In our opinion Zaphod's strongly meta-based attack displayed for example in above quote is a strange viewpoint. They're trying to meta a hydra based on their experience with the 2 heads and assuming that they'll act like zaphod expects. That seesawing part in above quote for example was clearly two people going in different directions and zaphod saying this is scummy because one of the heads tunnels as town is just a dodgy argument.
In post 201 Zaphod also agreed with selected points from shafteds list of people including in the quotes was RW seeming townish. Yet in same breath she contradicted herself as being ready to lynch RW.
Just last page Zaphod said:

@ Yosariwen
I don't understand why you're voting RW when Poke is another main suspect of yours, has a far larger wagon, and you think Poke may be RW's buddy. To wit: "*10. PoketheAlpaca (PokerFace+populartajo) : Along with the other things that have been pointed out, possible link to Raging Wishbone, in this post where he defends Raging wishbone. "

In 201 Zaphod herself switched their vote to Trotsky, although their hydra was a strong suspector of PTA's. I think SWSWC's flip as scum makes PtA less likely to be mafia, but Zaphod's switch happened before SWSWC got killed.

I need to talk to my better half, at the moment Zaphod, Zmd and RW are the most scummy to me.

[Ojando]

@OJ - Where did you get 30 hours from anyway?

6. A lynch will occur when more than 50% of the players have their votes placed upon the same player, or have their votes placed upon Nolynch. After the 50%+1 threshold is reached, the lynch will occur regardless of any subsequent posting.

Kills will be posted in thread between 6 and 30 hours after I receive them by PM.

I will attempt to randomize the delay as much as possible to prevent date/time type confirmation of kill source.

This seems fairly self explanatory.

and frog dodging is not going to die. it has been 3 days since a+b claimed to have submitted the kill, and the limit is 30 hours. so ragingwishbone, you can stop pretending to care now.

This was pointed out to you already in post 140, why were you still confused about it?
The clarification from the mod was not relevant in whether A&B could have killed sex w/ shafteds wife club.

My post was a simulpost with yos/nuw... I dont need to "convincingly explain anything to anyone", we "Cross-posted".. Read much? I am not going to explain again how OFF it is for him to call her inexperienced after Heavens Gate! Regardless, I think they are the closest thing to town we have, why do I need to explain more? Wanna another wall O'Text, no prob (j/k, lol)...

Way to dodge.
Where did Yosarian imply that Nuwen is inexperienced IN THIS GAME? The simulpost has absolutely nothing to do with this, you talked about this in post 186, that was before the whole simulposting thing. A severely twisted accusation needs explaining even though you changed your mind.

Something a bit older:

d) "Once again; just to reiterate, the above post and the willingness and need for self-adulation of Yoso on behalf of his partner reek of scum trying to find a way to jusitfy their "existence in the world"" - I beg your pardon? This is probably the worst of the lot - it just doesn't make sense. That's not the way scum mentalities work. Scum do not need adulation. They are not looking to justify their existence in the world. I don't even know how you came to that conclusion

I completely disagree with this, except on semantics. Sure, scum might not want ‘adulation’, but they certainly want some credit for apparently townie actions that they do, otherwise they’ve wasted their time. Self-congratulations seems to basically be a scum saying ‘look at how townie I am’. Scum do have to justify their existence, they need to justify themselves as town, if they don’t do anything townie, or appear not to, they will get lynched, I don’t really understand how you could think otherwise.

For the record, there was one line in there which may have read as personal gloating which wasn't meant to be. It may have been read as 'Good, I caught the SK'; I mean 'Good, the SK has been caught'. If this makes any difference to anyone. In other news, I approve of Nybs' idea, I guess; I don't approve of her support for a Yosariwen lynch.

There’s a distinct difference between gloating and what I interpreted it as, which was drawing attention to an apparent town-move. Gloating is something anyone would do, trying to ensure that everyone knows that you’re awesome at scum(sk)hunting is something that scum would do or a townie under pressure, which you weren’t, as far as I recall.

No! Remember, even you noted that we're sorta on a post budget here! Always having your vote somewhere is especially necessary. FOSes with out votes are suspicious.

This seems like a stretch, he was clearly going to post again before we got close to another lynch. If it was going to continue and he basically ould have refused to vote, ok, but this was hardly a telling point against RW.

Oh noes, shaft.ed's subtle defenses of me aren't taking root in the minds of the town!'? Fair possibility. Hmph.

What? RW was questioning why you ‘agreed’ with shaft.ed about RW being scum, when shaft.ed said the opposite.

I need to talk to my better half, at the moment Zaphod, Zmd and RW are the most scummy to me.

I agree with the suspects my other half has listed here. Therefor the updated list looks like this I believe:

Whom I'm willing to lynch now (update it as you post):
1. Zaphod Beeblebrox (1) Ojando
3. Zmd (1) Ojando
4. Trotsky(3): nyballosulgniirkps, ZMD, Zaphod Beeblebrox
5. Ojando (1): ZMD
7. Yosariwen (1): nybaloosulgniirkps
8. Ortohoops (1): ZMD
10. PoketheAlpaca (0):
11. nyballosulgniirkps (0):
12. Raging Wishbone (2): Zaphod Beeblebrox, Ojando
13. J-Scope (0):
14. Frog Dodging (0):

PtA looks unlikely to be mafia after sex club flipping scum.
My first choice for lynch is Zaphod for reasons voiced by us in 225 and here.

unvote; vote: Zaphod Beetlebrox

[Ojando]

This is unfortunately not what we said. I am suspicious of him for the posts he has made, not just lurking, because he/they as a hydra are not making any attempt to deviate from the play which got them vigged in Alpha. Total fence-sitting and locking into "you or me" with DGB is definitely not pro-town play.

It is what you said, it’s just not the only thing you said. Just because I’m saying that your point regarding Trotsky lurking is a bad one, doesn’t mean that all of your points regarding Trotsky are invalid.

Also, I do like the idea of a mod kill for this game for anyone who gets 4 prods. As long as the TOWN can control that kill.

Town would always control the kill in this instance. If someone was at 3 prods and hadn’t posted for 72 hours the mod will only prod them a 4th time if requested to do so in the thread (rule 10). It would act basically as a hammer at that point. Please correct me if I’m wrong on this theory.

Here is your problem and here is something EVERY OTHER TOWNIE HAS DONE and needs to ask themself? Isn't the first thing you do when returning from VLA to ask your PARTNERS opinion on the game?

No, I wouldn’t, that’s stupid. One advantage you have when coming back from a break is seeing the game in a bigger picture. I find that I tend to notice things not making sense from many pages back because I’m reading the whole thread or a large part in a short period of time, and I’m not looking for anything specific, so my mind is open to anything.

Asking my partners opinion is just destroying any advantage that being VLA and rereading brings. I’d send my partner a run-down post of everyone in the game and ask my partner to comment on it. The advantage of having a partner is that we can bounce ideas off each other, it’s not to get their ideas so I can basically copy them.

When coming back from VLA (in a non-hydra game) you don't just look at the votecount and vote for the person with the highest vote count. You have your own opinions etc, you reread and post your opinions. It's no different here.

however J-Scope is the best lynch due to his arugments on daytalk and his associations with sexed!

Elaborate please, I’ve reread the last 3-4 pages and can’t find any accusation from you or anyone else regarding this association between J-Scope and sexed.

[Ojando]

My partner has been VLA and I’ve wanted to give her as much chance to chat to me prior to posting, especially given the lack of new content from anyone other than RW.

Please reread my last five or six comments and the subsequent replies which I wrote above.. if you dont want to lynch him, then please nevermind and lynch who ever you want. Just tell me you are certain who the scum or sk is and I may follow you but at this point I see no better lynch.

No, if you wish to make a fresh accusation like that, you need to state pretty clearly why. Not doing this strikes me as scummy, as when questioned you still don’t provide it, merely point me towards some vague posts, none of which answer my question. If I'm being an idiot and missing something, then quote what I've missed rather than just saying 'hey go back and read'.

MOST, Excellent comment, why did Jscope not send his partner a run down of post as it is what YOU stated you would do?

As stated, I would send it to my partner, but I could understand people just posting it in the thread. My main point was that I would not seek my partners advice prior to rereading. As to why you’re attacking someone for posting in the thread when you’re seemingly hellbent on getting people prodded, this makes no sense, you’re playing on both sides of the fence. It takes time to coordinate conversation within a hydra, especially if you're in my boat and in vastly different timezones.

@Ojanda...sorry genius in the future I will not expect you to read and repost every important screencap of the game! Err, then again please dont ak me to POST something YOU already have or SHOULD have read!

If you wish to make a linkage case against someone, state it clearly, otherwise you’re just throwing the accusation out there with nothing to back it up. I stated very clearly that I'd reread, and I have, more than once, I still can't see a direct accusation of this, or even an indirect one. If it's there, please quote it or give me a post number. Obviously given your vehemence you must know where you or someone else has said it, shouldn't be hard for you to tell me where.

Just tell me you are certain who the scum or sk is and I may follow you but at this point I see no better lynch.

Our vote is on Zaphod and I think we’ve made clear why. As to the SK, I’m not entirely sure what I’m looking for to differentiate between scum and SK, but my best guess is you, RW, if there is one (do we know if there is?). Someone pointed out earlier that constant posting of private chats runs a large risk of outing power-roles. To me, there’s no greater risk for scum in this, they don’t really care if they’re outed as scum or as scum power-roles, either way they’re outed. Scum would obviously be faking these logs anyway, and are unlikely to out themselves as power-roles in faked logs. For town, this would be pretty bad. So while I think it could help scum role-hunt, I also think that an SK possibly has the most to gain from this, get rid of power-roles with ease.

I have the same gut reaction to your mass-claim request, but I haven’t had a chance to think about or talk to my partner about the implications at this stage. While I'm not against it, and I think it'd help town, I think it would also be a good play by an SK to get a good idea of the power-roles out there.

Would love a vote-count.

[Ojando]

You guys can start digging our grave once we're dead, and not a minute before, OK?

I read this as confidence in survival.

But:

Since our mortality is on the line here, I feel it prudent to share every last thought I have on this game before our untimely demise.

You're right. This isn't confidence at all.

A problem I have with getting your thought process of suspecting FD based on the first sentence here is that the quoted second sentence is originally directly subsequent to the first one.

Have you even seen my scum game? I try to take complete control of everything. I

pick who I want lynched and make it happen.

I make the strongest case I can, shrug it off the next day when I'm wrong, and do it all again the next day. I guess it means nothing because you haven't seen me as scum, but I feel insulted that you think I play like this as scum.

Let me make something clear. I'll do it your way and use caps. I DON'T GIVE A FUCK ABOUT CRITICISM. NOWHERE DID I EVER CLAIM TO BE IMMUNE TO IT. NOBODY IS IMMUNE TO IT.

I HAVE SUSPECTS AND WHAT THAT MEANS IS THAT THAT IS WHO I WANT LYNCHED

, NOT THAT NO ONE CAN SUSPECT ME. Maybe it's clear now. We'll see.

You feel insulted because you say would be more active and make cases to the best of your ability as scum. In this game earlier you mostly didn't put arguments forward or make cases; more typical was name list with little substance/putting forward a lone vote based on impression which marginalizes contribution. You state you want your suspects lynched. You state you have the ability be convincing and get others lynched. This you do as scum though. As town, you don't bother although you do want your suspects lynched. So being vague and light on content earlier is a town tell for you. That's convenient.
Also, you somehow think it's much worse play to be initiative-lackingly scummy as scum than as town.
Correct me if I misunderstood something there but that thought process really seems to leak.


Regarding FD not dying. The snipped sentence of them being confident pursued by Zmd and RW was utter rubbish. Contentwise FD has come off as townish to me.
There's one thing I'm somewhat uncomfortable with though after reviewing that near-death bit again (since mafia doctor is a possible role and its target buddy/sk are the only roles that would know about own protection).
The rules say that kills will be posted in thread between 6 and 30 hours after the mod receives them by PM. FD posted their "last words" in two posts roughly 18 hours after A&B had stated they had submitted a FD kill.
I looked at JDodge's and Shanba's sitewide posting at that time. Shanba didn't post elsewhere at that time. JDodge posted 12 posts in Mish mash starting a couple of hours after A&B's claim to have submitted a FD kill.
Quotes of interest from the posts spread 20 minuts apart:

Since our mortality is on the line here, I feel it prudent to share every last thought I have on this game before our untimely demise.

Every post should have a purpose beyond the addressing of one particular point or idea, every post should try and contain some amount of contribution from both players - unfortunately, I didn't manage to get online before my other head posted and talk to him, so I have to waste a post here. C'est la vie.

@FD: Which of the posts was made by Shanba and which by JDodge?

@people knowledgeable about meta: For something else I was looking at, could someone please tell me if Yosarian and Nuwen would be considered normally in average more active than shafted and elvis.knits?

[Ojando]

Zmd doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
With 10 players alive/2 sk's, 1 mafioso and only 1 townie dead, we really can't be close to lylo anytime soon so resigning "to avoid lylo mislynch" seems off, especially strongly after softclaiming. It's not exasperation with the game itself as he thinks it's fine so I don't get it.

Vote: Trotsky

Not entirely opposed to this wagon. Useless tunneling on Zaphod and general lack of depth in his posts. We also are running low on posts. I'd still prefer a Raging Wishbone lynch, but I do not believe it will happen.

This not entirely opposed thing made me twitch and I just went waaait a minute with the preference. At this point with 6 to lynch RW had 4 votes, Trotsky 3, you yourself reversed it to RW 3 Trotsky 4.
Why did you believe a RW lynch wouldn't happen?

@FD: thanks.
Meh, having native English would be very convenient, I just realized I have mixed up "prudent" and "urgent".

Since our mortality is on the line here, I feel it prudent to share every last thought I have on this game before our untimely demise.

After A&B had said FD kill had been submitted and it seemed FD could die any minute there was a couple of hours to JDodge's 12 mish mash posts and 15 hours gap after those to JDodge's "final words" post. Thing is, "urgent" would have been fake wording, "prudent" not as much.
JD posted his post, 6 minutes after that Shanba posted a (reasonably sized after-game post) and 17 min after that Shanba posted here. For that reason

unfortunately, I didn't manage to get online before my other head posted and talk to him, so I have to waste a post here.

seemed possibly off to me.
Anyway, I was confused about prudent which lessens this.

Oh yeah and forgot to say:
@Adel, I (Ojanen half) don't see reason to abandon either, still like playing.

[Ojando]

Catching up. Ugh, RW's claim is teeerribad, it does not correlate to the JD attack at all.
Also, I'm wondering, what is the point of saying now you supposedly protected PtA for this phase? Like, if you were a doctor, wouldn't you still want that scum would try to target PtA and would fail?

[Ojando]

It's probably a good idea to wait a bit for the possible powerroles before we lynch RW although I have little doubt they should be lynched.
Frog seems to have posted he's not gonna be here for the weekend - maybe we should wait until he comes back just to make sure everyone has a chance?

@mod

: is rule 13 (the spam rule) still being applied to this game?

[Ojando]

I'm particularly non-plussed about the doctor claim and his attack on FD. Not only is it dodgy as hell, as pointed out, but it's another instance of RW putting people in impossible situations. There is absolutely nothing that FD could have done to defend himself from that attack, through no fault of his own.

I think RW has been fairly consistently role-hunting I feel. Has constantly asked for screencaps of hydra communication, something pointed out as running the risk of power-roles outing themselves, not just scum.

His attack on FD now seems fairly obviously attempting to get a doc to point out why FD didn't die, he basically seems to have said that by saying he 'planted some seeds'.

Nothing RW has done seems to be consistent with a doc.

The question from my other head regarding why a doc would reveal who they are protecting needs attention I feel as well.

[Ojando]

Vote: Raging Wishbone

Me and my other head have outlined why above in detail, don't need to say it again.

[Ojando]

I seem to remember DGB hates not using hydra accounts. Above was us accidentally from Ojanen's account.

[Ojando]

Ummm?
Yes, it occured before the lynch, but I was asking what you see as the incentive to choose/send in a kill rather earlier than later in the day (that seemed to be the tacit assumption behind thinking the kill took forever to happen)? Cause it must have been sent in 26th or 27th and that coincides with RW's claim and the drama that was seeming to end the day soon and the doc's target named, which I thought would have been relevant.

[Ojando]

LURKED
5. Ojando Death the Hogfather Lurked from June 17-26
8. Ortohoops Lurked from June 12-24
10. PoketheAlpaca June 14-20, June 20-26
11. nyballosulgniirkps Pesco Light June 9-17 and June 17-26
14. Frog Dodging June 9-15, June 15-21

Pretty sure from 19 June to 23 June we were in twilight awaiting rule changes. I know we could post, but no votes counted AFAIK, and considering how much work goes into this game, at least prior to the rule changes, it seemed like a convenient time to relax for a bit while waiting for the rule changes.

I think these are going off my timestamps here, and I'm not entirely sure what timestamps this account has given me and Ojanen are in diff timezones. But yeah, there was a 3-4 day period there where we were in twilight.

[Ojando]

@Adel

: I think you missed nyball's vote to Zmd.

Btw, my no claim was an attempt to draw a scum kill before.

I'm not buying that. It was a soft fakeclaim. Otherwise, wou would in fact have been killed for it.

I don't like either of these thoughts.
By saying you might be a powerrole and if it's that's the case, you don't have any useful information yet, I feel you would be playing really suboptimally were you actually a town powerrole. Someone for whom action phases(time)=information would heavily benefit from really fighting to survive and actually having obtained some tangible information to give their team if they were lynched/cofirmed later. A powerrole wouldn't softclaim early and waver their handkerchief to scum. Scum would have to be daft to kill Zmd, were he actually town under suspicion. And a fake softclaim I could see as somewhat scumvenient.
Zmd, do you have link to the other game you did this in?

Then Zazie catches up at some point?

Not really. I talked to her on AIM and mentioned how I thought RW said something, but couldn't find it and she found it for me

Ok, but

You're misreading what she said. I did the same thing the first time I read it. She meant that you originally gave me (Kmd) the credit with the pronoun "he",

but it was strictly her catch

.

[Ojando]

I have to admit that I flip-flopped somewhat on my earlier neutral read on nyball after examining their last post.
The post was generally light on content regards to that they post so rarely. The reason they stated for the vote was again the attack Zmd mirrored on FD, earlier detachment is noted as a not-very-telling-in-itself side note. They have never mentioned anything else in their posting history regarding Zmd than the bad attack.

While it's legitimate for you to believe this, I have seen, in other games(from town DGB at least) this apparent outspoken ignorance to what seems obvious occurrences in the game. That's not a point in their favor but rather a lack of a point against. That said, the inconsistency in Zaphod's attacks leave me unsettled. I don't really think their interaction with Trotsky is very telling.

This is extremely vague. There are 2 things presented as nulltells and then inconsistency in attacks is mentioned. A cursory look at ZB's posting history doesn't make me think the meant inconsistency is obvious. What was your specific thought, nyball?

Ojando, here is the link. I don't know if it will let you view the page without buying an account or not, but if it does, I think clicking my name in the OP will show my post history.

For what it's worth, seems like Kmd did do the claim once as town. I could see the move as scumvenient but seems that specific part of the case is a nulltell then.

[Ojando]

I disagree with Tajo about the Zmd+Zaphod scumpair being particularly likely. It would be just easier and more convincing to full out bus if they are the remaining scum, I doubt Zaphod's flip flops really are designed to convince anyone of Zmd's innocence and Zaphod has a decent amount of anti-Zmd initiative history. Also, I think Tajo's sarcasm detector fails on the "WTF?etc." part.

@nyball: With the vagueness I meant mostly the unspecified phrasing of inconsistent attacks. At this point it's obvious Zaphod has a bunch of turnarounds with Zmd, before you're statement I thought she hadn't done that yet but now I notice I was wrong; the first change of opinion had happened.
I guess I get bad vibes when people express a specific game event in very general, unpinned terms of scumminess. "Zaphod's change of mind regarding Zmd leaves me unsettled " is said in unspecified broad plural as "The inconsistency in Zaphod's attacks leave me unsettled".

Ugh. More in a bit, I'm being kicked out from the computer.

[Ojando]

@Zmd:

why?

You think Zaphod's flip flops are normal? Who do you think is scum?

I'm not sure what to make of the flip flops. I don't think DGB is normal anyway. I don't really see a motive making them necessarily scummy, since they're not based on changing tendencies on general suspicion level or anything; they don't seem that opportunistic. Actually, unless Zaphod wants to stay out of a wagon she knows to be town but wants to feed it somehow. But that would just be, I don't know, pretty crude/obvious and not actually beneficial for self-preservance when done like this.

Hah, this is probably going to sound questionable but this is where we're at regards the second question:
Ojanen thinks Zmd is likely scum/best lynch at this point. Sando finds Zmd scummy to a degree but has had higher suspicion for Zaphod. After coinciding though, as a hydra, we do support the Zmd lynch, which means we are also willing to deliver the hammer after hearing from the Zs. Not that meaningful though at this point whether it's J-scope or us.

[Ojando]

There was no kill last game day.

I'm also currently trying to reread.

[Ojando]

Half-Zaphod is baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack!

There was no kill last game day.

I'm also currently trying to reread.

THIS needs elucidation.

Am I right that the scum is lurking?

I found this funny, is it just me?

J-Scope, you're right, my (Sando) confidence was pretty battered, but it was Trotsky flipping SK that made me feel really stupid. I think I said that I couldn't work out how his comments made sense as either scum or town, and yet it still didn't click in my brain that he was an SK. It didn't really matter in game terms, but I felt like an idiot regardless, and missing something so obvious as that, combined with RW flipping doc didn't do good things to my confidence. Ojanen has done most of the posting since then, and is naturally more passive than I am. I just finished another game, and that gave me a lot of confidence, so I'm raring to go baby.

@People re-reading: What in particular are you reading?

Pretty sure they meant this thread, would seem very odd to post that you're rereading a different game...

Zaphod, what do you mean by the elucidation comment? Ojanen's post seems very clear to me, are you saying that it deserves more comment on how/why there was no kill, or are you actually asking for clarification of the post?

Zaphod, are you still basing you suspicions off whoever lurked and didn't? It was a pretty weak argument when you first brought it up and claimed that people lurking through a twilight with rule changes pending was scummy, and you seem to have backed off actually accusing anyone and just saying that scum are lurking, loosely based around no kill yesterday.

[Ojando]

Gah, summer. I'm apt to being V/LAish currently but I'm trying to get a substantive post up later today or latest tomorrow. Traveling isn't friendly to mafia.

Guys, what do you mean by this?

Look at the number of SKs, mafia; look at the number of kills.
If SKs don't submit a kill, someone is chosen randomly by the mod.
This mechanism doesn't appear to apply to mafia.

So unless wishbone stopped kills, or scum tried to kill the same people at the same time, its possible that a massclaim will answer why there were no kills in previous days?
Still we don't know which kills were from which scum. This looks like further reason for a RB claim at the least now.

I'd think the situation would be pretty obvious regarding the kills that happened:
Mafia killed Incamnito, Trotsky killed SWSWC and A&B tried to kill Frog Dodging but hit RW's protection. Second time mafia killed Yosariwen, sk's were lynched already. Yesterday mafia failed to kill: either they hit a protection or a block (though I'd think a RB would have claimed already) or then suffered from general organizational inaptitude, I'd think.

I'll get back to you soon.

[Ojando]

I know it's working backwards, but I see no compelling reason to let nyballs live one more day.

This is pretty extreme considering we're pretty near to lylo and you've never really mentioned suspecting nyball before as far as an iso skim told me.

What did you mean by the THIS IS IMPORTANT thing?

This has been explained already. We were under the post constraint at that point, and closing in on the limit. I was pushing for a lynch to go through, and did not mind seeing Trotsky go. This was back when people were posting absurdly long posts. I didn't accurately count the votes, but things seemed to be moving towards Trotsky. And as such, I placed my vote where I felt it would most likely lead to a lynch I was not opposed to. It worked.

The thing is, the 13 page limit was a line people wanted to draw but in a way an arbitrary one game mechanically. You said you're not "entirely opposed" to a Trotsky lynch although preferred RW, you didn't count the votes carefully, you acted on impression that things were moving towards Trotsky. It just seems like eagerness at getting any lynch (mislynch at that from mafia pov).

[Ojando]

I know it's working backwards, but I see no compelling reason to let nyballs live one more day.

It is extreme. I think PoketheAlpaca is town. Everything else is a blur. Nyballs in particular seems disenganged. Maybe to the point of forgetting to send in a kill?

PtA seems townish to me too, but you seem to be jumping to supporting a lynch in mylo on someone you previously didn't express suspicion of because ýou think the case comes from town.
The "maybe forgetful" argument seems a little funny: if there's a doctor, it seems you would want to draw him out now instead of tomorrow or then not be interested in seeing if there's a claim at all. I'm not sure you even checked nyball's activity, cause looks like he posted when Zmd was L-1.

The second part of your post is a misunderstanding: the quote is from me and directed towards nyball.

[Ojando]

At various times earlier in the game you state you don't see the case on zaphod from trotsky or others. Judging your recent reads post it would appear you have changed your mind about them. Are their back and forth reads on ZMD your only reason? How does this relate to your early game read of Zaphod?

No, I said that I didn't think Zaphod's interaction with and reaction to Trotsky made them scum, and this was more or less in response to someone bringing it up.

Actually I think PtA's point is valid and your description isn't accurate.

To this I add that I don't see the case on Zaphod and don't like the way trostky has been pushing it. Plus, I don't think DGB is cynical enough to use emotional blackmail as scum to get out of trouble, so my read of her is town at the moment.

Iso 2 you call PtA's case on Zaphod weak and state a specific point that is weak.

Korts' vote for Zaphod in post 183 does not look sincere, as it is one of few things he comments on despite the massive amount of content in the game up to that point.

On Zaphod Beeblebrox, I see the case being pushed against them as wobbly. I could see town do the 'gloating' at the sk lynch too.

Iso 8 half the reason of voting Trotsky is "useless tunneling on Zaphod".
Then iso 12 you say

While it's legitimate for you to believe this, I have seen, in other games(from town DGB at least) this apparent outspoken ignorance to what seems obvious occurrences in the game. That's not a point in their favor but rather a lack of a point against. That said, the inconsistency in Zaphod's attacks leave me unsettled. I don't really think their interaction with Trotsky is very telling.

with the inconsistency as the only thing against Zaphod after a pro-Zaphod history.
And iso 14 zaphod has landed as "scum" on your read list.

[Ojando]

Ojando, the inconsistency you are pointing out is mostly because of my partner. #1 and #4 are not mine, and I'm fairly baffled that you didn't realize this. If you don't believe me then I recommend you read the posts entirely. Both posts also mention me in third person. I also always vote with a colon.

You are correct.

#3 was written by me, but that was not a defense. In fact, I can't recall ever taking a 'pro Zaphod' stance this entire game. As you've accurately pointed out, I did defend against the notion that their apparent obliviousness to previous events was scummy, but as is also clearly stated, that is not a point in their favor.
Any transition of my stance on Zaphod has been from neutral to scummy, and that is nothing short of natural.

Regards the pro-Zaphod stance, yes, seems SL found ZB town, you were more anti-anti-Zaphod, consistently finding the attacks on her weak. (notably PtA, Trotsky, J-scope's points nulltells, also Ojando implied). Until your generalized comment about the Zmd interaction you consistently disagreed with the points brought against them, not just the obliviousness one like you continue to say. That consistency is somewhat notable, although it's true Kison never implied Zaphod was more than neutral.

This stating one detail/point in time as opposed to a perspective of a larger chunk of the game is actually somewhat a behavioral trend: it's similar to your Zmd vote with the thing with Frog as the only reason specified as actually water-holdingly scummy although "there are other things".

[Ojando]

I'm not totally convinced of the no-lynch, but my concerns go along the lines of not seeing the benefit, I can't see anything wrong in terms of hurting town. I don't really buy the 'not around for a submit' argument that i think is being suggested by some. My opinion is that scum seem to have decided either not to submit or are persisting with trying to kill the same person and being stopped somehow. There are other options, some discussed so far, some not, but those 2 seem by far the most likely to me. If so, I'm not entirely sure that we're going to achieve the desired effect.

But, as said, I can't see how it can hurt in this situation, until I see a real downside I'll

Vote: No Lynch

J-Scope, my personal top suspect is Zaphod, I've had a bad feeling about him for a fair while, and I'm less than impressed by his response to the no-lynch issue. His argument against it is incredibly simplistic and something I'd expect to see used to refute a D1 no-lynch vote. No lynches are usually a terrible idea given the exact reason he's given, but there's a reason that the word 'usually' is used, because there are exceptions. I find it scummy to attack what at least a few people agree is a pro-town move without addressing the arguments behind it, and to add on pulling out the tired old excuse for No-Lynch being a bad idea compounds the scumminess.

[Ojando]

Jahudo- the thrust of what I was saying is that he instantly jumped to the conclusion "either the mafia is repeatedly trying to kill the same person or are no killing".

I didn’t jump to the conclusion, I said: “There are other options, some discussed so far, some not, but those 2 seem by far the most likely to me.” This very obviously means that I considered the other options and came up with what I thought are the 2 most likely. You are misrepresenting something I was very clear about.

Why could a no-kill not result from the doctor protecting two different people the mafia targets consecutively?

Odds, not only would the doc have to correctly guess the target yesterday, but then guess that after having blocked 1 kill, that the scum would change target, and THEN correctly guess AGAIN who the new target is. Yeah, that’s sooooooo much more likely than the doc realising he was protecting a scum target and sticking with it. There are other options, but I thought they were even less likely.

Sure it's subject to WIFOM of the doctor changing their targets, but it's incredibly uncommon.

So the doc would be stupid to stay on the same target, but scum can obviously work out that the doc will change target so they can stay on the same target? Wow, you’re tying yourself in knots.

Plus, of course, how did he know the kill wasn't going through today/yesterday (depending how you classify)?

I made my big assumption about 24 hours before deadline, and you think I’ve made a huge assumption?

I am curious as to what ulterior motive you believe I have for bringing this up.

Rolefishing, plain and simple.

Here’s a quick rundown of what you’ve done today/yesterday:
You advocate a no-lynch, saying that we should give scum the next kill.
You then attempt to out someone you think is a doctor
You then ‘hammer’ the no-lynch, ensuring that you can now change your target ‘tomorrow’.

This all looks incredibly dodgy to me. The idea that you would advocate giving scum the next kill with no real resistance, then deliberately try and give them a power-role target is absolutely mind-boggling.

No, I won’t claim today, no matter what I am, it would be possibly the stupidest thing in the world to do. You can’t analyse and get a lynch based on my claim, you’ve hammered the no-lynch, all it gives is scum more information. There is no ‘slip’ that I’ve made unless you ignore the qualifying parts of my post.

[Ojando]

Mass-claim at this stage is a mistake. The entire reason we no-lynched was to have 1 less player in lylo. Mass-claiming now will probably achieve that, at the expense of losing a power-role. We should mass-claim, but only once a kill goes through or once we agree that no kill will go through.

At the moment, if we mass-claim, we really can't get a lynch before scum kills, so all that the mass-claim pre-kill accomplishes is giving scum more information for the kill.

Ortolan, you are completely aware of this, I'm sure of it. You realised that no-lynch was the best option, you've obviously considered our options. You trying to force me to claim is also a fairly obvious attempt by you to set up a post-scumkill lynch. You force me to claim, scum kills someone else, you say that since I didn't die my claim obviously must be false. Setting this up at any time is bad enough, doing it now, in lylo, is either really really stupid, or the actions of scum, and I don't think you're stupid.

Orto, you were happy to give some strong reasons for the no-lynch, why are you giving absolutely none for the mass-claim? And why are you guys blindly following along? We can still mass-claim later today, doing it now is BAD for town.

Having thought about the possibly motives behind Orto's actions, and just how anti-town they are, I'm convinced he's scum. I'm still happy to await a scum-kill and mass-claim before voting etc though, they should come in that order though.

[Ojando]

On reflection I agree with his.

I’m calling BS on your ‘reflection’. You’d thought about the status of the game enough to insist on a no-lynch, but you then didn’t think through the implications of a mass-claim while doing exactly what you wanted by no-lynching? Yeah right.

Even if I was scum and you were town I wouldn't know in advance that your claim was going to be scummy, so I simply do not understand what point you're making here except possibly that "my claim is going to get me lynched", in which case, I laugh (at the scumminess of this assertion).

You’re scum, you get me to claim, you kill someone else, point at me and go ‘look, he didn’t die after claiming power role, clearly scum’. It looks a lot like you trying to set up a post-scumkill lynch.

Again, this is all in the context of wondering why Ojando made the assertion he did.

I made it pretty clear why I made the assertion, in fact, I made it pretty clear in that same post. My 2 ‘scenarios’ are the most likely in terms of odds, no matter what I am. Saying ‘these are the 2 most likely options’ is a tell of some sort if I’m using powerole/scum information to come to conclusion not supported by what town knows, but I’m not, so it’s merely me being right, and anyone can be right.

I'm asking Ojando if they have any reason for not posting in that time period. I do not think that their absence omits them from being able to kill.

I’m confused, are you guys looking at June? July 10-21 went like this for us:

We posted July 13th, 15th, 18th, 3 times on the 19th and 21st. There were posts from both me and my partner.

During a similar period in June I don’t think we posted, but are those dates relevant for kills etc?

[Ojando]

Fine.
Doc.
Targets:
Death the hogfather protected Yosariwen pre-game.
Second phase(=day 3) we protected PtA. After sex club had flipped scum PtA seemed unlikely to be mafia, sex club's adamancy in getting them lynched did not seem buddy behaviour. A&B had flipped sk, now also Trosky; we didn't see space for PtA scum anymore. We also considered Frog who felt townish but were somewhat wary of them having survived without our help the A&B kill.
(That's why I finecombed that chain of events and questioned some stuff about their posting history here and here.)
For day 4 the same thought process re: PtA still applied; didn't see space for PtA scum and this was a general feeling in the thread. This is the day that no kill went through.
Before day 5 we thought the kill was taking a long while to come and we might have a confirmed innocent due to protection, but couldn't be sure until after Zmd's lynch scene and next dawn. Protected PtA again for next day.

Day 5 after Frog said doc should breadcrumb target, I first did this in a hurry, entering PtA scrambled as apt twice in the post using the word slightly strangely.

Gah, summer. I'm

apt

to being V/LAish currently but I'm trying to get a substantive post up later today or latest tomorrow. Traveling isn't friendly to mafia.

Guys, what do you mean by this?

Look at the number of SKs, mafia; look at the number of kills.
If SKs don't submit a kill, someone is chosen randomly by the mod.
This mechanism doesn't appear to apply to mafia.

So unless wishbone stopped kills, or scum tried to kill the same people at the same time, its possible that a massclaim will answer why there were no kills in previous days?
Still we don't know which kills were from which scum. This looks like further reason for a RB claim at the least now.

I'd think the situation would be pretty obvious regarding the kills that happened:
Mafia killed Incamnito, Trotsky killed SWSWC and A&B tried to kill Frog Dodging but hit RW's protection. Second time mafia killed Yosariwen, sk's were lynched already. Yesterday mafia failed to kill: either they hit a protection or a block (though I'd think a RB would have claimed already) or then suffered from general organizational in

apt

itude, I'd think.

I'll get back to you soon.

Came back next day and there was a natural way to be able to breadcrumb; we made sure we didn't call anyone else townish that day.

I know it's working backwards, but I see no compelling reason to let nyballs live one more day.

It is extreme. I think PoketheAlpaca is town. Everything else is a blur. Nyballs in particular seems disenganged. Maybe to the point of forgetting to send in a kill?

PtA seems townish to me too

, but you seem to be jumping to supporting a lynch in mylo on someone you previously didn't express suspicion of because ýou think the case comes from town.
The "maybe forgetful" argument seems a little funny: if there's a doctor, it seems you would want to draw him out now instead of tomorrow or then not be interested in seeing if there's a claim at all. I'm not sure you even checked nyball's activity, cause looks like he posted when Zmd was L-1.

The second part of your post is a misunderstanding: the quote is from me and directed towards nyball.

And there's no reason for me to tell who we protected today.

[Ojando]

Nyball next.

[Ojando]

so tell me why I was wrong/scummy to say "you are either scum or the doctor"?

I was right wasn't I? (I may yet be right about both; or just the scum part)

You've been interacting with my other head but I agree your actions were questionable.
I mean are you seriously asking what's wrong with pointing out possible hints of a powerrole while waiting for mafia to make next kill? Why on earth didn't you wait to talk about this until massclaim had been done, we wouldn't have lynched before that anyway? Also, why potentially compromize the doc's claim with your actions?

[Ojando]

Here's my screenshots.

Protection day 5
Receipt day 5
Protection day 4
Receipt day 4
Protection day 3
Receipt day 3

Sentbox
Inbox
Role pm
Doc rules discussion with Adel from Ojanen's account

I'm not screenshoting the protection for the current day.

I’m hitting loads of fatal errors/blank screens on the forum atm.
More thoughts in a bit if the forum behaves.

[Ojando]

Oops. Here's the correct protection for day 4.
I put day 5 twice.

[Ojando]

@Pokerface:
I made a new link, does this work? Never uploaded images before, I probably messed up something.
Sentbox


Nyball, in addition to the missing phase, your first submission date is odd.
First action phase was pages 1-12.
Your posting history shows you were quite aware of this mechanic, you post this on page 12:

I see this as a confession of guilt.

This is action phase - 10 post.

Hammer please.

Doctors should send in their protections for next phase before the end of the previous action phase(/after rule change before lynch).
End of page 12 happened on 13th of June. Your submission is shown to be only on 19th of June, somewhere near the end of page 13.
In the early page 13 Adel says that rules will be changed somehow and game's on hold. However, you couldn't have known that was gonna happen beforehand.
I could see this as a blunder from someone who's just putting dates near the end of gamedays and not thoroughly thinking backwards to the original rules, and it seems inconsistent with your post 287.

Still waiting for Jdodge targets.

If I'd been interacting with your other head but you agree with them why did you feel the need to point this out?

In case he wants to add stuff. Strange part of my post to reply to.

[Ojando]

Two which days do the targets correspond to?

[Ojando]

@FD: please just paste the dates of your claimed protection pm's on ort and me, that should take 2 minutes.

[Ojando]

FD, seriously, get on with finishing the claim already. We have deadline on Saturday. You've been at least 3 times on the forum since your last post here and giving timings of the claimed protections should take two minutes.

[Ojando]

May 26 and Jun 1? There's 5 days between those dates, both would be for the same phase, did you mean July 1 or what?

[Ojando]

Jun 2. IIRC that was the end of one phase and start of the second, you might want to check. We might've spaced it and sent in two protects for the same phase accidentally, too.

No, July 2.
You told the dates of the receipts. First and second are clearly for day 1-2 and day 3 respectively.
I'm very interested in the date of the third protection, when did you

send

it in? July 1?

[Ojando]

So the various doc target claims are:

Day 1-2 RW: FD, Ojando: Yosariwen, nyball: FD, FD: Yosariwen
Day 3 RW:PtA, Ojando: PtA, nyball: FD
Day 4 Ojando: PtA NO KILL
Day 5 Ojando: PtA, nyball :FD, FD: Ojando NO KILL
Day 6 Ojando: not telling, nyball: FD

July 2nd is in the early day 4, which means it would only take effect in day 5 (docs submit protection always for next phase).
Which means we are the only doc that could have been protecting in day 4, and there was no kill that day.
This validates us and PtA.
At the moment I'm more suspicious of nyball than Frog, because his claim including no action for day 4 seems more accidental.

[Ojando]

Ojando, why did you not consider protecting Yosariwen during action phase 1 (for action phase 2)?

We didn't feel having as good a read on their alignment as others. Frog gave more town vibes judging from content at that point, PtA looked most unlikely scum due to hard facts of relation with known mafia+flipped sks.
You yourself were one of the people voicing suspicion for Yos during first phase, btw.

Also why are the inbox and sentbox links in your 589 now "permission denied"?

I put a new link in 593 for sentbox, that also doesn't work? Not sure what I messed up on the original one. Inbox works fine for me, I can upload a new link if you confirm it really doesn't work for you.

--- --- ---

From iso-check, seems Shanba clearly breadcrumbed on day 5 having protected Ojando for day 4.
That is not correct; in fact jdodge's claim states them protecting us for day 5.
(I found these breadcrumbs on day 5 from him:)

However, since any doc would have interesting information to share with the town, he really ought to be breadcrumbing yesterdays protection target.

Getting about halfway through this has so far reinforced my positions. In particular, I am p. certain that Ojando is town, and fairly certain that ZB is town. I am therefore looking for scum from the Ortohoops/PTA/J-Scope/nyballs.

I do not think Ojando is scum. I also think it is unlikely that ZB is scum; I am often getting pro-town vibes off them.

My suspect list goes as follows: nyballs, J-scope, PTa, ortohoops, the rest of you pro-town bastards.

I didn't really get much on ortohoops. They stayed more or less anonymous in my mind, as I basically skipped the large walls of text, so I lost their argument with Yosiwen. My gut there is town, but it's the sort of gut feeling that normally presages being violently sick, so I wouldn't put too much trust in it.

I would really want to be able to hear the reasons behind their claimed targets.
I'm not sure how Shanba would have messed up in his head in which day he protected us. It could be an elaborate preparation for a fake claim, plan left for jdodge who somewhat ruined it by obviously not really caring about this game. Or an honest mistake, albeit a big one, in confirming someone based on false information.

Either way, I think a fakeclaimer would not have liked to leave day 4 everyone surviving to be accounted only by us, and in nyball's claim this was clearly accidental. In jdodge's claim this was either due to being honest or due to not caring.
I'm having some trouble believing in 4 docs existance.
Nyball is the less believable figure between them.

vote: nyballosulgniirkps

[Ojando]

There cannot be 4 doctors. I really hated how Jdodge tried to guide my protect out of the way.

vote: Frog Dodging

[Ojando]

btw, did you all actually submit your protections for Day 8?

Sando again, looks like we did, but Ojanen did all that stuff for our hydra, just going off our sentbox.