DHSDSM beta: Game Over.

[PoketheAlpaca]

I, PokerFace, have never modded or played with anyone in the Raging Wishbone pairing

Vote: Raging Wishbone

Suspect the unexpected

[PoketheAlpaca]

I, PokerFace, have never modded or played with anyone in the Raging Wishbone pairing

Vote: Raging Wishbone

Suspect the unexpected

Have you

modded or

played with at least one member of all other hydras?

Yes, I have.

<<PF

[PoketheAlpaca]

What can you tell me about team ortohoops, pocketface?

Happy Birthday Let's spell wrong together! (Bad Idea Marthon and Explosiva were cool)

I have no reads on hydra's... I can't even figure out who most of them are XD

It should be obvious which I be in my hydra when since Tajo's play style is different from mine and I make lawls. Though should we make it a policy to identify who is who when? Feels a little against the spirit of things so i can't decide.

it is obvious that death and hogfather are both sks individually; this post confirms this thought.

Acusing or searching for an SK this early when we don't know there is one? That means one of 2 things:
1. Your Mafia trying to kill your scummy oposition.
2. You are an SK making a slip.
Looks like I can't be wrong

Unvote, Vote: Trotsky

[PoketheAlpaca]

I agree with everyhting PF has said.
Ill reread later.

[PoketheAlpaca]

Acusing or searching for an SK this early when we don't know there is one? That means one of 2 things:
1. Your Mafia trying to kill your scummy oposition.
2. You are an SK making a slip.
Looks like I can't be wrong

Unvote, Vote: Trotsky

this post means one of 1 thing:
1.

you haven't read terry pratchett

and thus can't see the conclusive proof that death the hogfather is sk.

No I haven't

I think the worst offender so far is PoketheAlpaca, who has two completly useless posts so far.

I, PokerFace, have never modded or played with anyone in the Raging Wishbone pairing

Vote: Raging Wishbone

Suspect the unexpected

Have you

modded or

played with at least one member of all other hydras?

Yes, I have.

<<PF

You or probably your other head asked a question in the quote. I felt it was apropriate to answer. Did you think the back and forth questioning between OrtoHoops and Incamn was apropriate including the banter? What do you think of random voting in general and in the context of this game? how often do you random vote yourself?

Me and tajo have been chatting some but it appears the time would better be focused in the game in as few posts as possible in order to get the scum. I guess If you have something more useful than agreeing with others, that is what you should be saying instead.

I think this game should be over by page 31 (3 scumkills),

This seems to imply knowledge of the SK vs. Vig option.

Pointing out possible Vigs helps the scum. Do you actually think RW is an SK?

[PoketheAlpaca]

Sorry Im not posting much here. Changing acounts is more detestable than I thought.

Ill give you my thoughts tonight.

Tajo..

[PoketheAlpaca]

6. Obv DGB. Protown vibe.

7. PescoLight voting for Mod. Wait, Pesco or FL?

9. Jscope votes Pesco for voting the mod. protown vibe.

21. Trostsky feels relaxed.

2. Raging Wisahbone is again trying to break a game.

27. Yep, trotsky feels town.

31. Pesco serious against serious comments. Protown vibe.

36. Incamnito against Ortohoops.

40. DGBHoopla votes Trotsky. Why? Meta? You thought it was rolf?

41. Reasonable question.

42. Yosariwen jumps agains PoketheAlpaca for "extra posting" in page 2. Kay, I realize where are you coming from but why the fixation on me?

Note that I do NOT want this to go to the extent that people are afraid to say stuff; everyone should be posting content, we do not want to get into a "short and sweet" situation where the game dies because people are afraid to post, and a lynch every 12 pages should NOT be that hard in any case. It's just complete spam posts like this one that look anti-town to me here.

Im afraid this is what is happening here. Random stage doesnt give much information and people are used to 5-6 pages of random wagons.

44. Apples and BVananas joins the wagon, agreeing with Yosariwn.

45. Oficially a wagon with Forg Jdging vote.

Not much to analyse here other than I have a town vibe coming from Trostsky, RRBone, Jscope. Others are neutrals and a slight scummy vibe from DGBHoopla.

[PoketheAlpaca]

Ok PF typing this up after talking to Tajo on aim so all our thoughts get listed.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On another note:

I think more likely SK, but as long as you kill whoever we tell you to I think we'll be better off keeping you alive for now.

Unvote, vote Zaphod

. Something still feels off to me about DGB's play here, and it's more than being generally bummed.

Note: any player who's next post isn't counterclaiming Sens has effectively said he won't be.

-RR

This post is actually incorrect, because sex w/ shafted's wife club later makes the point that we don't really need a vig/SK to make extra kills because we can make as many lynches as we like as long as we don't post too much to do it. However, the fact RW was happy to let a claimed vig/SK live very strongly suggests to me he is town. Scum do

not

want extra killing roles alive.

We disagree with your opinion here. Both town and scum could want to keep a claimed Vig alive. That way the "vig" would kill people for them
* Scum would want "Vig" to wipe out town. Direct the "vig" to kill other townies
* Town would want "Vig" to kill scum
It is a null tell. If RW is town they clearly did not realize Town has infinite lynches and wouldn't need to direct the vig.

PokeAlpaca: Post in your hydra account! Your last official post was April 28. In that post you thought DGB Hoopla was scummy. Based on your PbPa I assume you meant Zaphod (DGB-Plum), but you really need to clarify and elaborate your position on those two separate hydras. I also want to know if both of your heads agree or disagree on this stance.

Yes accidently did some hydra confusion there. Though since those posts we have discussed and reached an opinion together. We think Zaphod is scum. They have agreedwith others/wagon jumped at times convienant to when others have been pressuring them. Trotsky or RW pressures them and they are in with a vote and post right after it. Its like they are running scared trying to grasp onto anything to stay a float.

Plums recent post has actual content but the A&B wagon has ended with A&B dead. Saying you find A&B scummy now does absolutly nothing. Its just a pathetic attempt to look like everybody else. "Oh look at me I'm catching up and I found A&B scummy too! We're just like the rest of the town, I swear!" Then you should have said that earlier when it mattered not wasted the threads times/posts with it now!

We're also certain Orto hoops is scum. Any player can lynch an SK. What we believe makes them scum is their general hypocritical attack on A&B. Followed by a jump onto a wagon they originally saw as oportunistic.

At the moment, the PokeTheAlpaca wagon looks

very

opportunistic. Of the people on the wagon, A&B's vote stands out the most as a cheap way to jump on, especially when they were yet to post content. Kscope's meta suggests all is fine for him jumping on too, but I still don't like the baseless entry.

I'm going to Vote: Apples and Bananas on a gut read.

My main point is I don't think scum would blatantly draw attention to themself in such an obvious way - or rather, I don't think those spam posts were intentionally made to waste posts, when a recharge target is so far off. There is little to no scum motivation behind it.

In fact I'd suggest scum would more likely be the players most wary of this infraction. It's a simple way for them to sit back early and jump on someone for fluff posting, knowing that the town is paranoid of this. And, I think A&B is most guilty of this crime.

Now, addressing your post more specifically; every time you generate suspicion on someone,

you're basing it on the thought that scum are more likely to do x than town.

The way you come to the conclusion I'm scum, is on the basis of this logic. It's simple - I think scum are more likely to avoid fluff posting early on, and take the opposite stance.

It's an easy way to force suspicion on players - they're preying on the paranoia of the town. I don't think scum would be stupid enough to come in and make fluff posts to start the game. Why would they want the early attention when they don't even know how hasty the town is going to be with post wasting? It's a stupid risk to jump in the limelight like that, and it's even stupider to not be aware that fluff posts would put them under pressure.

This is why I think scum would take the stance of jumping on

anything

that could be interpretted as a slight waste.

I don't get this either. Part of the case being expressed on A&B is their posting wasn't really adding much to the game. Saying Scum wouldn't do it because they'd get attacked for being scummy is stupid. Scum are more likly to be scummy. If scum were never scummy, how would we catch them? You sound like you want to attack those that conserve posts and you don't certainly seem to be doing or voting for that. Like you're being a hypocrite.

If Incamnito was any more town, my eyes would implode.

I know what you're saying about A&B, but for these hydras I do not have yet enough information to get a read, and I'm confident I will be able to get a read eventually.

With the Swine Flu going around... this is definitely a lurker I want to rattle.

vote: Death the Hogfather

*DGB*

If you don't have a read, don't post and or waste your vote.

Random stage over.

Unvote: Trotsky

To quote Frog Dodging, MAJOR HYPOCRISY ALERT.

No its called learning from your mistakes and suggesting others do the same. Did you or did you not start off bantering and then start posting otherwise?
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 53#1641253
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 34#1642534
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 47#1642847
Cause you did! And if you are going to condemn us then you must codemn your own play. You should be blaming yourself for doing what you now say is wrong!

We are willing to lynch both Zaphod and ortohoops. Willing to run them up asap.

Vote:Ortohoops

@Frogdodge, you mention trotsky and ZMD briefly in posts 137 & 138. You say they can be reasonably scum in that grouping but you don't go into detail exclusivly on Trotsky and ZMD. Why do you believe they could be scum?

[PoketheAlpaca]

Sorry for the wall of text but then I'm sure you didn't want me to post more than once. Saunt Adelaus probably deserves a mod kill warning for posts 169 through 171

My reaction to RagingWishbone's unvote was the same as Ortohoops' - the reason is that town would be more likely to consider the possible benefits of that claim being legit, and utilizing the kill of the vigilante without realizing that they already possess the potential to make up for it themselves with their limitless lynches. While it's only in the benefit of the SK to kill town, both serial killers and vigilantes *want* to kill scum. The more likely to give off the knee-jerk reaction of unvoting would be town.

Respectfully disagree. Cross-kills (or additional, town-directed kills) = another way for scum to die. By eliminating another killing group scum substantially lower their probability of dying. This is also with the hindsight he actually was an SK- he still could have been a vig at that time. Are you actually suggesting scum are happy to leave potential vigs alive? It's not a sure town-tell but it's a strong one in this case.

In this game:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8926
I PF was scum. And everybody (Town and Scum) tried to use DGB (Who was a very powerful Vig) to kill other players since you were allowed 2 day kills a day and or only 1 lynch. Not even for a second did my scum group think of killing DGB. We thought of ways to use here to kill others for us the entire time. We even planned to lynch her later because her kills of town made her look like scum because she killed sometimes without anybody asking her too. She could have gone after us at any moment, thought we were scum and shot us to pieces. But she didn't. We figured she wouldn't and we were right. In my experience Town and scum have equal reasons to keep any and all other killing roles alive. As long as a player is a use to you there is no reason to kill them. Our scum group in that game even had the power to day kill without DGB to some extent. We didn't need her, she could have killed us, but we kept her alive because she was useful. If someone is useful to you and your side, then there is no reason to get rid of them no matter what side you are on. And I can see ways an extra kill could benefit either side.

But, I am aware that some of what "we" have posted in this game may be construed as fluff, which was why I was willing to forgive it from the other hydras, in the early game, up to a point. However PTA's constant diatribes about "fluff posting" become beyond hypocritical when they make not one but two

completely

useless posts on page 2, followed by a scummy PBPA. Of course then comes the unprompted unvote, and now a contrived OMGUS.

The above should also serve as a comprehensive reply to J-Scope as far as I'm aware.

...
Your case on Zaphod, quite frankly, sucks.

It seems to be based on the idea that not voting scum = scum.

Huh?^ Where you getting that part from?

However we know this is not the case when A&B is a flipped SK. It also contains an extremely vague and unsubstantiated assertion about their overall playing style (bolded), and another (hypocritical) reference to "time/post" wasting.

Vote: PokeTheAlpaca

OMGUS is voting you just because you are voting me. We both gave reasons as to why we are voting each other. If no reason was given then it would be OMGUS. I gave a reason. The way you word it suggests that any time too players vote each other it is OMGUS. To prove that I was OMGUS you must prove my reasons were BS and I was voting you out of spite. Instead you said I was right about the way that first post could be fluff. So how was I BSing? I wasn't

Check the time stamp and words of these posts from our game
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 63#1642063
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 08#1645208
and compare them to these posts from the alpha game
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 65#1642065
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 06#1645206
Tajo was clearly under the wrong impression that these games were the same. He has to treat and learn from both of them and he should now have learned from these mistakes with recent postings not being of the same manner.

And what I explained was the feel I get from the postings. Call it gut if you want but DGB is not someone who strays away from a challenge or easily follows a group. Her running scared is like bigfoot. You are shocked to see it. And that was the impression I was getting. Plums post on A&B didn't seem to add anything in my point of view. I've played in games where people have used simular posts to camaflauge or try to look like everybody else. It would have been better if she analyze the wagon from a finished perspective not a growing one. That way she could find scum NOW. See if someone had bad reasoning while voting A&B and would be more likly scum. That would have been providing something new and helpful to the game not more of the same A&B is scummy. Thinking A&B was scummy was only useful when A&B was alive.

These comments here should also answer what J-scope asked here:

Saying you find A&B scummy now does absolutly nothing. Its just a pathetic attempt to look like everybody else.

I agree that it does nothing to help them or the relevant discussion but I don't think it's a scumtell. The whole post looks like a big stream of consciousness to catch up to the present, like the catchup post of someone who replaced in.

They have agreedwith others/wagon jumped at times convienant to when others have been pressuring them.

Why don’t you think DGB would do this as town? I think she’s normally a free voter. The first six posts were a little extreme; some had a joking attitude or the intention of prodding a lurker, but none looked like they were trying to hide the fact that they were jumping on a person. I think it’s probably just a personality of the players, not the alignment.

_________________

This was part of what I was getting at in my suspicions of PoketheAlpaca. Asked for content, gives not really. I also dislike their attack on Ortohoops, to some degree, anyway. I explained why their vote on A&B was

not

hypocritical.

I don't get this either. Part of the case being expressed on A&B is their posting wasn't really adding much to the game. Saying Scum wouldn't do it because they'd get attacked for being scummy is stupid. Scum are more likly to be scummy. If scum were never scummy, how would we catch them? You sound like you want to attack those that conserve posts and you don't certainly seem to be doing or voting for that. Like you're being a hypocrite.

And I did not bye your explanation. They should be explaining why, not you. Its their vote not yours.

No, Ortohoops seems to want to attack those who immediately jump on those not being extremely conservative with posts.

If that was the case they would have voted themselves for voting me by now

If DGB is frustrated and/or wants to quit the site, that's her business. I would feel comfortable winning as scum so long as I didn't use that post of hers as some sort of excuse or explanation for why I couldn't be scum, and I played the game for my hydra and alignment as best I could. It would be stupid of you to try to use that to

confirm

me town anyway. That's hypothetical and irrelevent, though, because I don't happen to be scum.

I never said I would use it for that. I said the only purpose it seems to fufill is showing you agreeing with everybody that A&B is scum. And that sort of thing poses no use to getting new scum. Only thing it could be would be a pathetic attempt to make you look like everybody else. That was the feel I got from it. if you'll look at what I said earlier you'd see that what town should have done was try to analyze the wagon and see if vote X was bad reasoned and made player X scum

...

I told you that I had been busy and had let DGB fill most of our collective duties here, and I apologized for not being about too much. I felt I wed it to the game to do a complete, thorough reread, and saw no reason not to offer it up to everyone. I had to really get into this game and this was the best way I saw to do it. I do realize that not everything in my last post was still entirely relevent, but I think that it was a decent option, overall. If you can explain why it was more likely that I'm scum trying to look town than town/anyone trying to really catch up in the game and be open about all my thoughts on what's happened . . . I don't see a compelling reason for you to not be treating it as a nulltell.

...
You felt the need to make this point and yet you yourself didn't have a suspect to put your vote on at least semi-seriously. At least DGB was poking the lurkers; I'd say there's some value in that.

Vote: PoketheAlpaca

More later; am being kicked off the computer.

I move my vote when I find scum or think someone isn't. That's the way I've always done it. If I think Korlash isn't scum and don't have a new suspect

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 05#1177205

I don't revote. My vote serves a purpose while a random vote at that point served absolutly no purpose. She could have commented on the game that had started but instead she went straight back to the random stage.

Also, why is Orto a better choice than Zaphod, PtA?

I never said one was better than the other. What I said back there was Let's lynch them both.

We are willing to lynch both Zaphod and ortohoops. Willing to run them up asap.

My response to this
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 95#1669295
I wasn't attacking ortohoops for lack of content but attacking them primarily for their logic.

They said our wagon was oportunistic and that scum wouldn't post fluff; they helped lynch A&B with that attitude. They said my wagon was originally oportunistic and scum would avoid fluff; now they are on our wagon and say scum would do fluff. They said we fluff posted; Hoops did some too.

Basically they are going back on some key points of their logic as well as commiting things they once deemed wrong. I see that as hypocracy.

Vote: Ortohoops

I think that's a bit of a stretch.

Zaphod stated in their post prior to voting that they would be doing so if Apples and Banana's claim was 'unsatisfactory'.

Additionally, Trotsky/Raging Wishbone never pressured them into voting A&B but voted for a lack of erratic behavior from DGB.

Ok I must have the underlined part of that.
Trotsky and RW went after zaphod here and here
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 07#1655207
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 17#1660917
The very next post after each of those is a vote by Zaphod. Call it IRC habbit if you want but I related her moving then to something tthat had just happen thinking their votes could have influenced DGB's response. Still I think I'll re-read zaphod later with the underlined in mind.

I dislike implying credit for discussion by doing something questionable.
Also not quite seeing how the RVS questions from ortohoops to incamn and PtA to Yosariwen actually were meant to advance the game - they seem like questions for the sake of appearing to ask questions (also Yos never answered and PtA didn't seem to care)

Up until the alpha game played out, i had a good meta on Yosarian. EVERY game where I had seen him random vote he was town. EVERY game where he hadn't he was scum. He random voted in Alpha and I thought he could be town there and scum here. He was scum in alpha so I'm wondering if the town tell falling out there effects his non-random vote-age here. Haven't figured it out yet so that's why I have not really followed on it and been more so waiting for Yos's acknowledgement of those questions. If anybody wants to see a list of what game I had used to make that meta they can. The Alpha game was the first I ever saw to disprove the town tell I got on Yos and nothing yet has gone against the scum one.

Edit while previewing:

I read the thread and write a post and start getting ready for work and ortohoops posts. I'll read their last post later. Ain't got the time to right now

[PoketheAlpaca]

I am curious about the other arguments you were trying to use in 154, because the REST of the arguments you were using to attack him seemed pretty illogical to me, and I would like you to explain them. Especally wher you attack him because he attacked Zaphod for not voting; "not voting" is generally a decent scumtell, and especally in a game like this where you should really be using your vote at all times.

Where did I attack her for not voting?

Up until the alpha game played out, i had a good meta on Yosarian. EVERY game where I had seen him random vote he was town. EVERY game where he hadn't he was scum.

Lol.

I random vote just about 50% of the time when I'm town, and just about 50% of the time when I'm scum. Other factors affect it, certanly, but I actually make an effort to try to keep it close to that number when I can, for meta reasons that I'm not going to go into right now.

Nice try to come up with a Yos tell, though. Pretty sure that's just a factor of the relitivly small number of games we've played together, though.

The meta didn't just have games I played with you but ones I read as well. I had about 10 or so where you random voted and were town and about 10 or so where you didn't random vote and were scum. None of the games you replaced into were a part of this study for obv reasons of those games weren't in the random stage anymore. If what your saying about the 50% is true then I must have been getting lucky staring at the values until the Alpha game. I find that surprising. Does Nuwen ever random vote or did you both just decide not to vote till you had a reason?

_________________

In this game:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8926
I PF was scum. And everybody (Town and Scum) tried to use DGB (Who was a very powerful Vig) to kill other players since you were allowed 2 day kills a day and or only 1 lynch. Not even for a second did my scum group think of killing DGB. etc. etc.

This is pretty much a point made with a sample size of one in a game with different circumstances. In this game the vidge/SK gets to make a new kill every action phase in a smallish game. Additionally not knowing whether they are town or self-aligned makes their actions unpredictable to other scum-players. Scum players would also potentially be scared of town reaching consensus on who the vidge/SK should kill and targetting them or their scumbuddies. Finally I see him as, if he was scum, wanting to not have to waste his kill on him that action phase (surely he'd prefer to get him lynched and choose a different target). As I said it's not an overwhelming town tell but I still view it as a town tell nonetheless.

Well I generally keep claimed vigs alive always. As Scum or as town. I do this partly because I agree with "Pie is Good"'s general view on vigs. I can't find an exact link to an MD thread where pie discusses these views atm, but if I do I'll give it in thread. But basically a Vig's kill can always act as a second lynch. If the vig is townish or confirmed town, they should control the kill themselves. Otherwise they should be directed. If the extra lynch is not entirly needed or they are scummy as all hell and you are outside lylo, instead of lynching them, ask them to vig themselves. If they don't comply they are scum and you should lynch them. I believe those are the values that can be applied here. Me and others believe/or have heard of these ideas as Frog dodge mentioned the possibility of A&B vidging themselves earlier for example. A large number of IRC players also have this view on vigs. So I am speaking from my expierence and giving an example where all players wanted a claimed vig to stay alive and help their side.

They said our wagon was oportunistic and that scum wouldn't post fluff; they helped lynch A&B with that attitude. They said my wagon was originally oportunistic and scum would avoid fluff; now they are on our wagon and say scum would do fluff. They said we fluff posted; Hoops did some too.

Basically they are going back on some key points of their logic as well as commiting things they once deemed wrong. I see that as hypocracy.

This summarises the main two points we are being attacked for this game: the first is supposedly "fluff posting" while attacking others for fluff posting. Now I acknowledge that some of what Hoops posted was sloppy, especially when she then wanted to attack other people for wasting posts. However, in the scheme of things, none of our posts have been as wasteful as for example PTA's or Zmd's or Death The Hogfather's or Korts' or J-Scope's or Zaphod Beeblebrox's; all of whom have made at least one post

entirely

devoid of game or meta related content from my brief check of the last few pages.

The other point is that "our" read on PTA differed between different points in the game. As should have been obvious from for example, the difference in purple and black text, that was two different people reading. Hoops made the first post without consulting me, and while I was doing Alpha I kind of expected her to post here but she had to move countries so when we got prodded I took it upon myself to make the post and could not ignore PTA's blatant scumminess- I could not consult her at the time and still haven't had a proper opportunity to talk to her about this game. Nevertheless, I very much disagree with PTA's wagon being "opportunistic". So, PTA, with my rebuttal to these two points in mind, I would urge you to very strongly reconsider your view you are not OMGUSing us, as neither of your points have merit imo (your case against us in light of these points is even weaker which leads me to wonder how much scumhunting rather than OMGUSing scum-style you're actually trying to do).

Well can you give me your general view of hoopla's opinion here:

To prevent this post existing for a mere correction, I want to use this space to talk about a couple of things. The posting rate in this game is flat - remember we still do have 13 pages to get through before a recharge. At the rate we're going at now, that will take ~12 days. This is plenty of time to make an accurate lynch decision.

I don't want to get to a stage where the sole basis of scumminess is from posting activity. Scaring people into thinking they'll get jumped upon for small posts will kill the game, and make it easier for scum. Use common sense to limit one-liners, yes, but I also think it's a cheap excuse for scum to attack players. We have more posts than we think, we really do.

--

At the moment, the PokeTheAlpaca wagon looks

very

opportunistic. Of the people on the wagon, A&B's vote stands out the most as a cheap way to jump on, especially when they were yet to post content. Kscope's meta suggests all is fine for him jumping on too, but I still don't like the baseless entry.

I'm going to

Vote: Apples and Bananas

on a gut read.

This wagon looks far more promising. I'll explain my logic a little better though; I think 13 pages to get a lynch is far more space than we actually think for a game this size. That's 325 posts.

Of the last 10 completed mini's, the first lynch was taken

before

post 325 in 6 of those games. And I think it's generally well-known that D1's are most commonly the longest. These set-up's have just two less players than what we have now. Not to mention players were playing normally in those games, not trying to conserve posts.

My main point is I don't think scum would blatantly draw attention to themself in such an obvious way - or rather, I don't think those spam posts were intentionally made to waste posts, when a recharge target is so far off. There is little to no scum motivation behind it.

In fact I'd suggest scum would more likely be the players most wary of this infraction. It's a simple way for them to sit back early and jump on someone for fluff posting, knowing that the town is paranoid of this. And, I think A&B is most guilty of this crime.

I've already explained my stance on the value of posts. We're not even 5 pages into the game and we almost have a lynch - the town should hypothetically be aiming for 2-3 lynches per action phase, and we should be able to do it comfortably.

Lets make a safe presumption and say we only lynch twice before page 13 - scum have had their kill, and the Sk/vig has one too. We're down to 10 players, and the next phase still has 10 pages, where we should easily be able to lynch 2-3 players again with more information in the game. I really think we don't need to be so hasty, and certainly don't think the basis of cases should be determined by their signal:noise ratio, unless it's substancial.

Now, addressing your post more specifically; every time you generate suspicion on someone, you're basing it on the thought that scum are more likely to do x than town. The way you come to the conclusion I'm scum, is on the basis of this logic. It's simple - I think scum are more likely to avoid fluff posting early on, and take the opposite stance.

It's an easy way to force suspicion on players - they're preying on the paranoia of the town. I don't think scum would be stupid enough to come in and make fluff posts to start the game. Why would they want the early attention when they don't even know how hasty the town is going to be with post wasting? It's a stupid risk to jump in the limelight like that, and it's even stupider to not be aware that fluff posts would put them under pressure.

This is why I think scum would take the stance of jumping on

anything

that could be interpretted as a slight waste.

What do you think of it in comparison to your will to go after post wasters. Do you believe that alone was a valid reason to go after A&B compared to the other reasons out there?

_________________

The main reason I claim PokaTajo is town is because of this post, I went through and read all of his links and he makes a good case (So on one hand Poker makes a damn good Lawyer and could have defended OJ 'j/k", on the other he does come across as being honest.... at this point I think his post makes complete sense and that is why I think he is town!

Heh heh, but seriously I wouldn't have defended OJ for all the tea in china. He was and still is obvscum.

I never said one was better than the other. What I said back there was Let's lynch them both.

Okay that still sounds odd to me. You would have to lynch one first, and judging by your vote I’d assume you wanted Ortohoops first? Would a particular role flip have given you pause to lynch Zaphod or consideration in some other route?

I can't say I've really seen any defined connections between Ortohoops and Zaphod. Nothing that would indicate the 2 hydras as scum partners, or both townies, or one of each. If Ortohoops was lynched and turned up scum I may have paused to search for said connections they may of had with anyone to get the best lynch. If ortohoops came up town

at that moment

I'd probably have gone after Zaphod as long as no new info came up on the ortohoops wagon like someone dropping and obv scummy hamer/vote somewhere.

Right now However I am re-thinking on Zaphod given the context of these posts.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 04#1651904
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 29#1655229
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 46#1655246
They explain her jump onto A&B when I originally thought pressure from RW led them to vote in that direction. I'm still thinking Ortohoops is scum and I have a mixed read on Zaphod as plum's earlier A&B analysis still seemed useless with A&B dead. It's been awhile since I've spoken with tajo about this game. We haven't seemed to be getting on at the same time. We'll try to make a post of views on other players on the weekend as well as answer the question below here with the views.

We need to deal with this in a sane manner because I don't see the current dynamic going anywhere anytime soon, which is crap because he setup is actually extremely advantageous to town. I suggest we do a lynch pledging list and whomever reach majority get lynched in a methodical manner. If no majority can be reached, we lynch by relative majority.

Currently with ~4 pages left it would be a shame if we couldn't manage at least one more lynch (though there is room for two).

Whom I'm willing to lynch now (update it as you post):
1. Zaphod Beeblebrox (0)
3. Zmd (0)
4. Trotsky(1): nyballosulgniirkps
5. Ojando (0):
7. Yosariwen (1): nybaloosulgniirkps
8. Ortohoops (0):
9. sex w/ shafteds wife club(0):
10. PoketheAlpaca (0):
11. nyballosulgniirkps (0):
12. Raging Wishbone (0):
13. J-Scope (0):
14. Frog Dodging (0):

This post is pending input by Kison. For the sake of effeciency, I'm imposing the 'revision by partner' of the pledge list at 1 post per hydra and per lynch.

[PoketheAlpaca]

Now I repeat my question that I have asked three times in this thread already, why is FrogDodge still alive? From the rules....

Serial Killer

You are an evil and calculating Serial Killer. Because you are so crafty, you are immune to kills other than your own.

[/color]

A&B lied or he did not! There was either a RB, Doc protect OR A&B told the truth and tried to kill FrogDodge but could not cause he is a SK. I'll get back to this...

<snip>
Unless we can figure out if A&B was lying... I see no other reason he is not dead. I kinda would like to stick with Occams Razor.

@FrogDodge - Seriousley Dude, why were you so confident A&B lied or you had protection... you wrote in response (paraphrased) to his claim, "Dont count us out until we are dead". You seemed positive you would not be SK'd!

And actually, I don't give a shit how I look. If I look like lurker-scum not wanting to do anything, fine. But that's not what I'm doing. I do believe Trotsky and Ortohoops to be scum. More Trotsky obviously. And I strongly believe FD to be SK because of his confidence in surviving A&B's kill. Surviving the kill itself is a long shot. How many times do you see a claimed vig's kill stopped by a doc or RB? And if the action was sent before A&B claimed their target, why would FD be protected? It's still plausible that A&B was RB'd, but that's about it. I think either they were RB'd or FD is SK.

As you can see from this post -
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 46#1630346
All doc protections and roleblocks are sent pre-phase. If someone protected Frogdodge during phase 1, they sent the action before the game started. If someone blocked A&B during phase 1, they sent the action before the game started. Night0 actions are usually sent based on expected player styles and backgrounds. I don't see A&B as Blocker magnets or Frogdodge as protection magnets based on general background and playstyle. This the only thing that holds weight against Frogdodge.

The other part of the case on Frogdodge holds no weight. I believe The first sentence of this post here is getting taken out of context.

You guys can start digging our grave once we're dead, and not a minute before, OK?

Since our mortality is on the line here, I feel it prudent to share every last thought I have on this game before our untimely demise. Raging Wishbone is quite inefficient at what they're trying to do. Yosariwen is way more downkey than I would expect. Look at them after our death. Sex club is a tad bit quieter than I would like. PTA and ZMD need to die already, especially PTA. Incamnito is one of the people that the town needs to start striving to act like. For someone saying so much about activity and whatnot, Ortohoops is extremely quiet. Death and Trotsky need to start speaking up. I have also heard absolutely nothing from nyball.

As a bit of fair warning, you are all letting this game go by the wayside and die. This game is not about lurking continually and just lackadaisically commenting when you get the chance. Start talking, all of you, or we're going to regret it down the road. You're all so fearful of action phases that you're letting it get to you.

FD has been fairly town throughout this game. And for the moment I believe I trust that read more than the chances they weren't save. So I have no desire for any player to claim any role actions involved with FD at this time. Don't want to put power roles out there this early in the game. Only if we do reach a point where there is a mass claim and no one really is responcible for Frog dodge's continued survival, should we bust out the noose post haste.

_________________

I'm suspicious of Trotsky for the way he posted fluff early, but isn't posting much at all now. Go ahead and call that hypocritical, but I really read Trotsky as scum right now.

I admit that Trotsky seemed more active earlier in the game, but I don't seem to recall Trotsky posting fluff exactly. Where do you believe he did this while early in the game?

_________________

@ortohoops,

My point against Zaphod back then was that plum's post about A&B seemed unesscessary. After all, at that point A&B was already dead. My gut told me that the only thing her coments directly about A&B could possibly serve to do would be to convince others that the Zaphod pair found A&B scummy.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 19#1661219

Plums recent post has actual content but the A&B wagon has ended with A&B dead. Saying you find A&B scummy now does absolutly nothing. Its just a pathetic attempt to look like everybody else. "Oh look at me I'm catching up and I found A&B scummy too! We're just like the rest of the town, I swear!" Then you should have said that earlier when it mattered not wasted the threads times/posts with it now!

And trying to convince others you think/act like them and or show off your views/success of getting rid of scum that late, is something I normally see scum do regardles of whether the dead scum was an SK or a mafioso.

We think Zaphod is scum. They have agreedwith others/wagon jumped at times convienant to when others have been pressuring them.

Totally non-specific. The other point was that the fact they didn't vote an SK isn't inherently scummy for the same reasons PTA seemed to be suggesting, because they cannot be scum with the SK.

Huh? Zaphod did vote A&B. And I didn't mean to imply voting or not voting an SK is the element that makes somebody scum.

Any player can lynch an SK

I said any player can vote an sk. An SK has no buddies so both town and mafia would have reasons for voting someone they percieved as an SK and or scummy at that point. And analyzing reasons of any wagon no mater when the reasons appear can be a good way to find scum. Trotsky was the only one who specificly once thought Zaphod had some conection to A&B, see?

"Trotsky" what's your case on Zaphod?

she ignored a superior a+b case in favor of a trotsky vote based on half our complete meta and ignored the subsequent question about it multiple times.

thing is, this was far more valid when we thought a+b was mafia.

and frog dodging is not going to die. it has been 3 days since a+b claimed to have submitted the kill, and the limit is 30 hours. so ragingwishbone, you can stop pretending to care now.

_________________

Zaphod has now presented this defence:

I still believe that the general attack on me for my analysis of A&B &c. is weak and the fact tells more about my general playstyle than my alignment.

I already explained, at this point, why an A&B section got included in that post: I needed to do major catching-up because I'd only had time to focus on the Alpha game, did a major reread-with-analysis post, and saw no compelling reason to excise the A&B section that I'd already written. I was attempting only to let the Town see all my thoughts and notes as I read through the game; when catching up, this is normal for me, and says nothing besides Plum playing as she usually does; quite null. Why did/do you see only self-congratulatory, apparently scummy emphasis on good work done by my other head and the other players?

To clarify, are you saying you often review dead players OR is that generally meant in the playstyle context of just joining a game? Can you present a link to a completed game where you have done that sort of thing before?

_________________

What do you think of it in comparison to your will to go after post wasters. Do you believe that alone was a valid reason to go after A&B compared to the other reasons out there?

I have no idea what her opinion was there and can't ask her currently. What's the relevance anyway, we can't be scumbuddies busing the SK. And the little non-aggressive question in 211 to Yoswen by PTA is like pretending to still be a bit critical of your scumbuddy, exactly the same way J-Dodge played in Alpha.

Not sure what your last sentence refers to since J-dodge was not scum in Alpha. The relevance is I'm wondering exactly how you are disagreeing or agreeing with her views. Basically the validity at which you view your hydra partners opinions can tell me if her or your opinions are faked or forced. I looked at some stuff Tajo did and I'm asking you to do the same in the context of your own partner.

But, I am aware that some of what "we" have posted in this game may be construed as fluff, which was why I was willing to forgive it from the other hydras, in the early game, up to a point. However PTA's constant diatribes about "fluff posting" become beyond hypocritical when they make not one but two

completely

useless posts on page 2, followed by a scummy PBPA. Of course then comes the unprompted unvote, and now a contrived OMGUS.

The above should also serve as a comprehensive reply to J-Scope as far as I'm aware.

...
Your case on Zaphod, quite frankly, sucks.

It seems to be based on the idea that not voting scum = scum.

Huh?^ Where you getting that part from?

However we know this is not the case when A&B is a flipped SK. It also contains an extremely vague and unsubstantiated assertion about their overall playing style (bolded), and another (hypocritical) reference to "time/post" wasting.

Vote: PokeTheAlpaca

OMGUS is voting you just because you are voting me. We both gave reasons as to why we are voting each other. If no reason was given then it would be OMGUS. I gave a reason. The way you word it suggests that any time too players vote each other it is OMGUS. To prove that I was OMGUS you must prove my reasons were BS and I was voting you out of spite. Instead you said I was right about the way that first post could be fluff. So how was I BSing? I wasn't

Check the time stamp and words of these posts from our game
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 63#1642063
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 08#1645208
and compare them to these posts from the alpha game
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 65#1642065
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 06#1645206
Tajo was clearly under the wrong impression that these games were the same. He has to treat and learn from both of them and he should now have learned from these mistakes with recent postings not being of the same manner.

You do know your hydra's own alignment after all so you should be able to get some idea behind their actions in comparison with yours. This point is also in relation to how some of hoopla's post could be seen as fluff while you went on the accuse others of fluff.

_________________

Back to RW. After maybe trying not to lynch A&B so darn quickly, or something, whatever it was, he votes them to L-1 (they'd been there on and off for about that whole page) for 'being scum'. That's about the most explicit he got there.

What part of lynching an sk do you not like? Please enlighten me with your wisdom as I would really ike to know why it was not good we lynched A&B!

I don't believe you were exactly so certain yourself. You did seem to waver some on the prospect of A&B being an SK.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 27#1653027
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 71#1654871
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 07#1655207
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 11#1656411
Also a few people brought up your actions of putting A&B at L-1 pre-claim, in the context of scum can feezibly kill someone not on the wagon at that time. The daykill of a player there would then shorten the max number of players in the game aswell as what would be needed for a majority lynch. This could then cause any player at L-1 to become auto-lynched since all votes on the wagon would not disapear. the only vote that would disappear would be that of the player not on the wagon. In general putting a player at L-1 carries some risk for the town. Risk mafia wouldn't need to worry about especially since A&B wasn't mafia.

_________________

ATM I am still most content with lynching Ortohoops. I don't really see ZMD's case on Trotsky and I'm not sure of Tajo's townish read on RW. Gonna ask him about that and what he thinks about Zaphod in detail when I get the chance. For now ortohoops would at least be PF's answers to this:

Whom I'm willing to lynch now (update it as you post):
1. Zaphod Beeblebrox (1) Ojando
3. Zmd (1) Ojando
4. Trotsky(3): nyballosulgniirkps, ZMD, Zaphod Beeblebrox
5. Ojando (1): ZMD
7. Yosariwen (1): nybaloosulgniirkps
8. Ortohoops (1): ZMD
10. PoketheAlpaca (0):
11. nyballosulgniirkps (0):
12. Raging Wishbone (2): Zaphod Beeblebrox, Ojando
13. J-Scope (0):
14. Frog Dodging (0):

[PoketheAlpaca]

PokerFace is on V/LA. Im updating this so you can see where we currently are. I so hate wallotexts and this game is dangerously crossing the annoying line (sorry Adel, I bet you didnt predict this would happen). Ill give it a try tonight.

Even more, we (PF and me) were having some kind of discussion about our suspicions but I think its pretty clear to us that Orto is our top suspect. When PF returns we will likely update this list.

Whom I'm willing to lynch now (update it as you post):
1. Zaphod Beeblebrox (2) Ojando, J-Scope
3. Zmd (4) Ojando, Ortohoops, nybaloosulgniirkps, J-Scope
4. Trotsky(4): nyballosulgniirkps, ZMD, Zaphod Beeblebrox, Ortohoops
5. Ojando (1): ZMD
7. Yosariwen (1): nybaloosulgniirkps(?)
8. Ortohoops (1): ZMD, PoketheAlpaca
10. PoketheAlpaca (0):
11. nyballosulgniirkps (0):
12. Raging Wishbone (4): Zaphod Beeblebrox, Ojando, nyballosulgniirkps, J-Scope
13. J-Scope (0):
14. Frog Dodging (0):

Ill read Trotsky, Zmd and RR cases more detailely later.

[PoketheAlpaca]

I'm back from V/la. Time to get a fresh look on this game and then see what tajo's got.

@ortohoops

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 54#1691354
In post 254
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 46#1695746
I responded to each of your points on why you believed PtA to be independantly scummy. Why have you not directly responded to that post? I also kinda like yos's points about your interactions with SWSWC.

SWSWC's view of you here:

Orto

Your back and forth with Yos is stifling game conversation. While I feel your points are valid, you're sidetracking discussion which is antitown. I also don't like that you feel the need to reply to every single point against you. Do you still find PtA most likely scum? If so is Yos a likely buddy or a misguided townie?

Orto scummy here. SWSSC agress that he has valid points but also he is called antitown. The last two questions feel fabricated.

doesn't sit well we me or tajo

_________________

I'm also really not liking ZMD and RW atm. I can see how protections and blocks sent pregame can muddy the water but their insistance on Frogdodge being SK solely for a sentence taken way out of context is bad. I don't see that part as a valid case on FD worth pushing.

Posts 274-276 by RW really bother me aswell. Each one doesn't seem to individually add much to the game. I think they should have waited and combined those 3 posts at the very least.

I don't like the idea of modkills because I can see how any player can feel encouraged to lurk with the game mechanics. Also, from a moral standpoint, I'd rather eliminate scum the normal way then try to get the mod's actions to work toward our side like RW outlined earlier. I'm pretty sure Adel would put a stop to something like that.

_________________

Who has played with Kaleidoscope before and can tell me if he’s the time of player to leave for a month then come back and post without telling me?

I have played with k-scope numerous times, mostly on IRC. K-scope's playstyle is that of a lurkish wagon hopper. He does this as any alignment, jumps on a big wagon and sees reactions that come out of it. He once had a sig that said something like "I am capable of bringing the worst out of people, not to actually play mafia". His playstyle is generally that of watch what happens and He rarely scumhunts or brings up big cases on players otherwise. He isn't the verbose type. During alpha k-scope posted without hammering ortohoops at one point. K-scope could have won that game for scum right then but didn't so he was obv not paying attention or following anything.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 20#1671020
Considering his general low activity sitewide I don't think he's paying much attention to anything right now so I'm willing to believe he is busy real life wise. And I got no problem just playing with jahudo.

_________________

Our vote is on Zaphod and I think we’ve made clear why. As to the SK, I’m not entirely sure what I’m looking for to differentiate between scum and SK, but my best guess is you, RW, if there is one

(do we know if there is?).

Yep. Somebody killed SWSWC. And there can't be any vigs since there already was one SK. Rules pretty much gaurantee there is another SK and they're the one that took out SWSWC.

_________________

I took a look at some of the views SWSWC had on Trotsky.

The Trotsky/ A&B interactions are a bit off as Kinglullaby pointed out. I'm not sure I'm buying Trotsky's defense that he thought A&B was mafia protecting a scumbuddy. Why would mafia claim vig/SK outing themselves to a killing role?

<snip>

At this point I'm not liking Trotsky or PtA. I'd like more pressure on the former, but have a clearer read on the latter. So let's do both, we've got all they lynches we want.

Trotsky

Your answer to my querry is lacking.

the vig claim would obviously be stupid as mafia, it was from zaphod's initial ignorance of the a+b wagon that we suspected her, and the sudden switch and hard push on it implied hard bussing--which we would expect dgbscum to do in such a case.

This still doesn't address why you would then ask A&B to kill Zaphod. At that point in time you knew A&B was very unlikely mafia, you just admitted as such.

If you don't see you're name in bold tags here you aren't posting enough. Get off your ass and post.

I don't know if Tajo's view of them has changed but I believe there is evidence of a possible connection between Trot and SWSWC like some other players have pointed out. More importantly we are also at page 12 and Trotsky has given up his right to claim 3 times while at L-1 (ZMD, orto, FD, kinglulliby, RW = 5 so the next vote is a lynch with 6). Refusal to claim when given the oportunity is scummy as hell. A couple of the Last posts feel like scum accepting the guilt.



I'll drop it like its hot!

Unvote, Vote: Trotsky

We can lynch ortohoops and any other suspicions Tajo agrees with me on later.

[PoketheAlpaca]

Freaking huge post wrote:

I already pmed adel and my vote would be 4 or 2. I don't want to abandon and 1 would change the tone of the game more drastically than 2 pending exactly how many of the current actions phase mechanics were kept and how many were done away with.

1) Hoops "fluff posts" weren't fluff in the same way.
2) Hers didn't have the same frequency.

I'll admit there was some level of difference in terms of frequency and what the posts were about but I still saw that as somewhat fluff.

4) It was Hoops that did it, not me.

Ortolan and hoops have the same role and are the same player. This point is mute. You could just talk to your partner about it and see what they may be thinking. Have you spoken with them recently or are you pretty much playing the game all by yourself now, kinda what Jahudo is doing in terms of J-scope?

Re-reading Hoops early posts I think they were a

bit deliberately abrasive

and maybe not well thought-out because of the attacks they could leave us open to. I don't see how they could have a scum agenda behind them though, she is drawing a lot of attention to us by both her comments and by the way she is posting in light of the rules.

Is this in cocern to what could be seen as fluff or is this in regards to how she thought scum might avoid posting fluff at all costs? I'm not sure which of those you perscieve as diliberatly abrasive nor do I understand why you think it was dileberately without a context clarification.

Assuming you are discussing how she thought scum would avoid fluff earlier on, the only scum agenda I could percieve there is that by getting townies to attack in the direction of non-fluff posters constantly, players may feel encouraged to post often as a result to avoid attack. This would length the thread/game and help the scum. It is a bit of a complicated agenda though so if she is town she unlikly considered this as a possibility. The alternative to this possible agenda is that she truly thought A&B was scum for avoiding of fluff and pretty much the entire wagon on A&B didn't see it as that from the cases laid out. This line of thought brings 2 possibilities:

1.

Hooplas suspicions of A&B weren't genuine. Her case was crap opposite of why A&B was attacked. She wanted to attack and get rid of A&B without going against her own already outlined views because of how that may draw suspicion

or 2.

She really didn't think things well through enough as you suggest.
hmm... I guess I can see how B/your defense is a viable answer there then since I believe Tajo was not thinking or paying attention to either game when he made identical posts in both games in the same timeframes as I ponted out earlier.

Check the time stamp and words of these posts from our game
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 63#1642063
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 08#1645208
and compare them to these posts from the alpha game
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 65#1642065
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 06#1645206
Tajo was clearly under the wrong impression that these games were the same. He has to treat and learn from both of them and he should now have learned from these mistakes with recent postings not being of the same manner.

So I guess I will accept your defense for ONLY that part.

_________________

3) You were actually attacking other people strongly for doing it while doing it yourself.

Rewind, you are the one I am accusing of doing this. You attacked me first for the fluff and I responded saying that you had done a type of fluff aswell and thus you were not blameless.

My response to this
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 95#1669295
I wasn't attacking ortohoops for lack of content but attacking them primarily for their logic.

They said our wagon was oportunistic and that scum wouldn't post fluff; they helped lynch A&B with that attitude. They said my wagon was originally oportunistic and scum would avoid fluff; now they are on our wagon and say scum would do fluff. They said we fluff posted; Hoops did some too.

Basically they are going back on some key points of their logic as well as commiting things they once deemed wrong. I see that as hypocracy.

odd, I'm just now realizing that the given link there was something said by SWSWC and I said that in response to how they percieved I was attacking you.

PtA attacking Ortohoops for lack of content was amusing. Pot meet kettle.

<snip>

PtA is self contradicting with his long post saying they think Zaphod is scum, rather strongly, but landing a vote elsewhere. Also interesting that PtA's attacking Ortohoops for being hypocritical is itself hypocritical. Would you mind self voting?

What is said here by SWSC is an attack of us(PtA) on the grounds of our ortohoops suspicions. This can be consider an awkward response or bad defense of ortohoops in the terms of how SWSWC later looked at ortohoops in that same post.

Not really liking Orto's defense that "my hydra partner did it!" in regards to the three fluff posts PtA pointed out.

You and your hydra are the same player in this game. That's a BS defense. I do agree however that some of those "fluff posts" were direct replies to questions asked by other players.

Because they actually give credit to some of our(PtA's) suspicions on Ortohoops. I am greatly considering the possibility you(ortohoops) are scum with SWSWC because they seemed to defend you from some logic and then imediatly attack you with it. I think they may have been confused on whether to defend or distance from their scum buddy there pending how other players may view the case on you. By being in between like that they could defend or bus you without reprecussion as they would have the option to be on either side.

The same Back and forth attitude of SWSWC not knowing how to act around orto scum can also be seen here:

SWSWC's view of you here:

Orto

Your back and forth with Yos is stifling game conversation. While I feel your points are valid, you're sidetracking discussion which is antitown. I also don't like that you feel the need to reply to every single point against you. Do you still find PtA most likely scum? If so is Yos a likely buddy or a misguided townie?

Orto scummy here.

SWSSC agress that he has valid points but also he is called antitown.

The last two questions feel fabricated.

doesn't sit well we me or tajo

That's great. Why?

All that I've said above is pretty much the why. SWSWC was fairly back and forth with their view of you. One moment they agree and defend you, the next they attack you and call you antitown. Its practically wishy-washy and I can see SWSWC-scum being that way about a possible scum buddy like you.

_________________

thats all right maybe someone here will have the brains to lynch zaphod after us

I understand why Trotsky’s posts look like a scum giving up, I had the same reaction initially. But it doesn’t really make sense given this statement. If he’s scum, he knows we’ll ignore his ‘lynch zaphod’, if he flips town, we’re wrong thinking his post is scum giving up. Only way both of these works is if he’s scum and distancing himself from his scumbuddy. I guess we’ll find out now that he’s been hammered.

There is another possibilities now in light of trotsky's reveal. He was SK that wanted Zaphod lynched after his death. Wanting Zaphod lynched after having lost the game as SK, means trotsky could have only wanted one thing there. He actually thought Zaphod was scum with SWSWC and if he(trotsky) couldn't win as SK, he didn't want Zaphod to win either.

At the moment a couple of my suspicions on Zaphod still need answers from plum. I want clarification of her response.

Zaphod has now presented this defence:

I still believe that the general attack on me for my analysis of A&B &c. is weak and the fact tells more about my general playstyle than my alignment.

I already explained, at this point, why an A&B section got included in that post: I needed to do major catching-up because I'd only had time to focus on the Alpha game, did a major reread-with-analysis post, and saw no compelling reason to excise the A&B section that I'd already written. I was attempting only to let the Town see all my thoughts and notes as I read through the game; when catching up, this is normal for me, and says nothing besides Plum playing as she usually does; quite null. Why did/do you see only self-congratulatory, apparently scummy emphasis on good work done by my other head and the other players?

To clarify, are you saying you often review dead players OR is that generally meant in the playstyle context of just joining a game? Can you present a link to a completed game where you have done that sort of thing before?

I want to know if she would typically make that kind of post as a replacement or as someone catching up on the game. And a link to such an instance supporting her defence, or it holds no water. And if it holds no water, then that would indeed make her entire caught up post gloating or a guise to looklike everybody else. And I already explained how an attitude like this would be grounds for Zaphod scum.

_________________

I disagree with the conclusion because I disagree with the premise that "there wasn't much of a case". FYI I have played several games with rofl as town previously- Lynch All Lurkers, Hunchback of Notre Dame and RealTime Mafia - in all he was extremely aggressive. I also saw a bit of a game where he was an SK which he got nominated for a scummy for, perhaps won it but I can't recall how he played that game. Anyways, in this and Alpha he played totally different (granted it's only one half of the hydra); which is why he got vigged in that and lynched in this. I have also seen him comment that he finds it harder to play as scum. Essentially it's very hard to fake such aggressiveness which is a stalwart of his town play, when scum. I don't actually think you're scummy for pushing this argument because it's counterintuitive anyway (and it's the same thing PTA attacked you for on A&B) and you're drawing attention to yourself by brazenly saying "I wish I was on this wagon, I did have a gut read on rofl but the people who did vote him are opportunistic scum". I do however think a position on the wagon is a null-tell if anything.

What you say here seems confusing to me. Are you saying you believe my case on Zaphod trying to come off like everyone else is weak? That you think Plum was not faking or gloating?

I have seen Roflcopter be fairly agressive as town many times. And I actually read the game where he was SK and nommed for a scummy. He did not win but I did support his nomination. He was actually fairly agressive as SK in that game.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8269
Mostly because he still needed to find and eliminate the other scum group. Why such agression did not carry over to this game where he was also SK, I'm not sure. Other than that game and Alpha/Beta, I have not seen Rofl-scum. I voted rofl over his failure to claim and submissive give up additude. I thought he was scum with SWSWC and that he had given up so I was happy to drop the hammer on that. What do you think of this reasoning? What do you recall of the main reasoning given by Frog Dodge, nyballs, RW? Basically does anyone other than ZMD come off as scummy to you?

_________________

The case currently on ZMD is interesting though.

Although, to be fair, Zmd is a fantastic lynch and he was on the wagon. His main behaviour this game has been lurking, taking issue with semantics, lurking; with a side of active-lurking. Also stuff like insisting Death the Hogfather is still one of his suspects in 224 even though he had long been replaced. Lazy scum. Read his replies, they're all pretty much contentless or bad OMGUSes on Frog Dodging.

I can see how some of ZMD's attacks on FD could be omgus. They are fairly retailitory to them throughout the game for no real great reason and mostly in response to how FD was suspecting them. ZMD's attack on FD saying "FD thought he would live" is absolute crap. Very weak because they took that out of context. I don't believe FD thought they would die there. ZMD took something FD said way out of context there. I think I may support a ZMD wagon on both of those grounds (OMGUS and pushing weak/crap logic).

_________________

I am also not liking RW at the moment for the points I brought up in my recent posts.

I'm also really not liking ZMD and RW atm. I can see how protections and blocks sent pregame can muddy the water but their insistance on Frogdodge being SK solely for a sentence taken way out of context is bad. I don't see that part as a valid case on FD worth pushing.

Posts 274-276 by RW really bother me aswell. Each one doesn't seem to individually add much to the game. I think they should have waited and combined those 3 posts at the very least.

Back to RW. After maybe trying not to lynch A&B so darn quickly, or something, whatever it was, he votes them to L-1 (they'd been there on and off for about that whole page) for 'being scum'. That's about the most explicit he got there.

What part of lynching an sk do you not like? Please enlighten me with your wisdom as I would really ike to know why it was not good we lynched A&B!

I don't believe you were exactly so certain yourself. You did seem to waver some on the prospect of A&B being an SK.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 27#1653027
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 71#1654871
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 07#1655207
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 11#1656411
Also a few people brought up your actions of putting A&B at L-1 pre-claim, in the context of scum can feezibly kill someone not on the wagon at that time. The daykill of a player there would then shorten the max number of players in the game aswell as what would be needed for a majority lynch. This could then cause any player at L-1 to become auto-lynched since all votes on the wagon would not disapear. the only vote that would disappear would be that of the player not on the wagon. In general putting a player at L-1 carries some risk for the town. Risk mafia wouldn't need to worry about especially since A&B wasn't mafia.

I am likly to vote one of Ortohoops, Zaphod, RW, or ZMD after twighlight pending their responses to all this. Votes don't count during twighlight right now.

>>End of Freaking huge post

[PoketheAlpaca]

There is another possibilities now in light of trotsky's reveal. He was SK that wanted Zaphod lynched after his death. Wanting Zaphod lynched after having lost the game as SK, means trotsky could have only wanted one thing there. He actually thought Zaphod was scum with SWSWC and if he(trotsky) couldn't win as SK, he didn't want Zaphod to win either.

I’m not sure I believe that motive because it had no effect on Trotsky. He clearly wanted to lynch Zaphod and I think he could have wanted that whether she was scum or town.

Part of Trotsky's acceptance to be lynched comments were that he hoped we would lynch Zaphod later. Mafia says that sort of thing when they want wifom out there to help their buddies. Trotsky didn't have any buddies since he was SK. I have often seen games where townies got lynched and as they were going down, they did their best to point at who they thought was scum to help the town later. Heck, when FD was facing possible kill by A&B FD took the time to give out comments on why other players looked like scum.

Trotsky was loosing any chance he had at winning as SK at that moment. I'll admit that I was wrong in saying it was the only motivation. I suppose there are other choices:
1. He wanted to help the mafia win later by suggesting a mislynch (unlikly since Trot wouldn't know zaphod's alignment for certain. Zaphod could be mafia and getting her lynched wouldn't help the scum in that scenario)
2. He thought his give up post would somehow keep him alive and get town to go after Zaphod (I doubt this option as well since he was not frantically posting with this issue in an attempt to save himself but more so rescind to going down)
3. He wanted to help the town win later by getting them to lynch mafia.
...But the last one here seemed like the motivation I would expect rolfcopter. If you disagree with my reasoning of trotsky's actions, that's fine. It's just a comment rationalizing what I thought rofl could have been thinking. It is not the reason I have some suspicions on Zaphod. I had some suspicions on her/them earlier in the game for a few things they have answered for, but plum needs to get back to me on a few things I outlined in my last post. I haven't latly had a problem with DGB, so at least that does make me feel better about them.

_________________

@people knowledgeable about meta: For something else I was looking at, could someone please tell me if Yosarian and Nuwen would be considered normally in average more active than shafted and elvis.knits?

I have never played with Nuwem outside the alpha beta games. Yos is a fan of lynching lurkers so is normally active. Considering this though:

Hello.

I'm sorry I haven't been posting. I (Yosarian) do not do well with this kind of mecahnic; the "posting without making progess hurts the town" thing really messes with my head, makes me want to make every single one of my posts *EPIC* and game-changing, and when I can't do that or don't feel up to making a super-mega-post, I tend to put it off. Same thing happened to me in the Short and Sweet mafia game, and posting hurt the town less in that game then it does here. Of course, lurking hurts the town as well, and probably hurts the town more; it's just really hard for me to post when I can't make a short pithy comment without wondering if it's worth doing in a cost/benifit analyis. (My intenet connection was down for about 24 hours on Wednesday, but that's not the main reason.)

He is normally more active outside games with the posting rules we have here. So I don't generally think their activity in this game is any sort of alignment tell.

_________________

Oh I forgot, this was the rationale:

WAIT - what was the alternate wagon???

Whoever was "saved" by the Trotsky lynch has got to be scum.

That'd be RW.

The RW wagon was half way to lynch while the Trotsky wagon was at one vote on page 10
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 25#1692425

Votecount as of post 238:

Raging Wishbone:

3

:Yosariwen, nyballosulgniirkps, Zaphod Beeblebrox,
Zaphod Beeblebrox:

2

:Trotsky, Ojando
PoketheAlpaca:

1

:Ortohoops,
Frog Dodging

1

:J-Scope,
Trotsky:

1

:Zmd,
Ortohoops:

1

:PoketheAlpaca
zmd:

1

:Frog Dodging,
J-Scope:

1

:Raging Wishbone

not voting:

0

:

while 11 players are alive, 6 votes will lynch

The post after that suggest Adel missed jscopes vote of RW aswell

@Mod: I should be voting for Raging Wishbone, not Frog Dodging

The trotsky wagon then picked up speed and went to lynch before page 13. The logic here that RW is scum rests then on his activity pushing the Trotsky wagon and on the activity RW had a partner also pushing the trotsky wagon. Trotsky was lynched by Zaphod, Ortohoops, Frogdodge, kinglulliby,

RW

and myself. Orto's vote was the second vote which came as the first sign of it growing in strength and or being pushed. I have noticed possible conections with SWSWC and orto. Yos has noticed some possible conections between RW and Orto. I think I'll review his comments and or see if they go full circle, see if SWSWC is conected to RW. If they are then the entire latvian scum group could be sex w/ shaft.ed's wife, Ortohoops and Raging Wishbone. Ortohoops has a few things to answer for at the moment from my last postings involving some of this.

_________________

VOTE: Zaphod

Regardless of the above statement DGb is not playing normal and I do not think it is due to the mechanics of the game after her exchange with Trotsky.

@Adel - I don't want to abandond and would support any secnario that does not penalize anyone for posting too much?

Unless I'm mistaken, you haven't really touched on this issue until now. And the last post Zaphod made dipicts you as being possible scum. Show me where you have mentioned this before or explain how DGB is different by yourself or I smell omgus especially since you dropped that remark super fast.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 65#1722465

_________________

FD, I'll admit I didn't look as closely as I could have. If I remember correctly, I read what they quoted and their post and thought, "wow, good point". That was my mistake.

Following the word of others that blindly sounds like a form of scummy bandwagoning. If you actually cared to find scum, like all town should, I think you would have gone back and looked at things more closely than "I agree with RW"

_________________

Yay I'm still down with lynching RW, ZMD, and Orto. My suspicion on zaphod is weaker than the suspicion I have on the others and I'm not about to lynch zaphod blindly if plum just hasn't gotten around to answering my comments. I also find myself agreeing with a couple of the views DGB has given.

Zmd is barely under attack. He may be the first wagon of the day. But already he's throwing in the towel, refusing to claim, accepting his lynch,

but soft-claiming a power role in the hope that he'll be spared

without risk of being counterclaimed, or being accountable. And we are warned we won't get more at L-1 with everyone salivating to hammer. That's scumtalk.

Also, this is gonna piss some people off, but if I get near a lynch, I won't claim. Enough people see me as scummy that I can accept my own lynch instead of being lynched later when we have less mislynches availible to us. And if I were to survive the lynch, I have the scum WIFOMing over my role and trying to decide if they need to worry about me or not. All I am going to say is that

if I am a power role, I have no valuable information to share yet.

That's as close to a claim as I am getting even if I am at L-1 with everyone else threatening to hammer. Take it how you will, but that's what I am doing and I'm set on that.

By saying 'yet' he is infering he could have some later which would be a soft claim and a way to bargin or ask to be spared later.

[PoketheAlpaca]

@Ortohoops,

please respond to this:

Freaking huge post wrote:

1) Hoops "fluff posts" weren't fluff in the same way.
2) Hers didn't have the same frequency.

I'll admit there was some level of difference in terms of frequency and what the posts were about but I still saw that as somewhat fluff.

4) It was Hoops that did it, not me.

Ortolan and hoops have the same role and are the same player. This point is mute. You could just talk to your partner about it and see what they may be thinking. Have you spoken with them recently or are you pretty much playing the game all by yourself now, kinda what Jahudo is doing in terms of J-scope?

Re-reading Hoops early posts I think they were a

bit deliberately abrasive

and maybe not well thought-out because of the attacks they could leave us open to. I don't see how they could have a scum agenda behind them though, she is drawing a lot of attention to us by both her comments and by the way she is posting in light of the rules.

Is this in cocern to what could be seen as fluff or is this in regards to how she thought scum might avoid posting fluff at all costs? I'm not sure which of those you perscieve as diliberatly abrasive nor do I understand why you think it was dileberately without a context clarification.

Assuming you are discussing how she thought scum would avoid fluff earlier on, the only scum agenda I could percieve there is that by getting townies to attack in the direction of non-fluff posters constantly, players may feel encouraged to post often as a result to avoid attack. This would length the thread/game and help the scum. It is a bit of a complicated agenda though so if she is town she unlikly considered this as a possibility. The alternative to this possible agenda is that she truly thought A&B was scum for avoiding of fluff and pretty much the entire wagon on A&B didn't see it as that from the cases laid out. This line of thought brings 2 possibilities:

1.

Hooplas suspicions of A&B weren't genuine. Her case was crap opposite of why A&B was attacked. She wanted to attack and get rid of A&B without going against her own already outlined views because of how that may draw suspicion

or 2.

She really didn't think things well through enough as you suggest.
hmm... I guess I can see how B/your defense is a viable answer there then since I believe Tajo was not thinking or paying attention to either game when he made identical posts in both games in the same timeframes as I ponted out earlier.

Check the time stamp and words of these posts from our game
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 63#1642063
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 08#1645208
and compare them to these posts from the alpha game
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 65#1642065
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 06#1645206
Tajo was clearly under the wrong impression that these games were the same. He has to treat and learn from both of them and he should now have learned from these mistakes with recent postings not being of the same manner.

So I guess I will accept your defense for ONLY that part.

_________________

3) You were actually attacking other people strongly for doing it while doing it yourself.

Rewind, you are the one I am accusing of doing this. You attacked me first for the fluff and I responded saying that you had done a type of fluff aswell and thus you were not blameless.

My response to this
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 95#1669295
I wasn't attacking ortohoops for lack of content but attacking them primarily for their logic.

They said our wagon was oportunistic and that scum wouldn't post fluff; they helped lynch A&B with that attitude. They said my wagon was originally oportunistic and scum would avoid fluff; now they are on our wagon and say scum would do fluff. They said we fluff posted; Hoops did some too.

Basically they are going back on some key points of their logic as well as commiting things they once deemed wrong. I see that as hypocracy.

odd, I'm just now realizing that the given link there was something said by SWSWC and I said that in response to how they percieved I was attacking you.

PtA attacking Ortohoops for lack of content was amusing. Pot meet kettle.

<snip>

PtA is self contradicting with his long post saying they think Zaphod is scum, rather strongly, but landing a vote elsewhere. Also interesting that PtA's attacking Ortohoops for being hypocritical is itself hypocritical. Would you mind self voting?

What is said here by SWSC is an attack of us(PtA) on the grounds of our ortohoops suspicions. This can be consider an awkward response or bad defense of ortohoops in the terms of how SWSWC later looked at ortohoops in that same post.

Not really liking Orto's defense that "my hydra partner did it!" in regards to the three fluff posts PtA pointed out.

You and your hydra are the same player in this game. That's a BS defense. I do agree however that some of those "fluff posts" were direct replies to questions asked by other players.

Because they actually give credit to some of our(PtA's) suspicions on Ortohoops. I am greatly considering the possibility you(ortohoops) are scum with SWSWC because they seemed to defend you from some logic and then imediatly attack you with it. I think they may have been confused on whether to defend or distance from their scum buddy there pending how other players may view the case on you. By being in between like that they could defend or bus you without reprecussion as they would have the option to be on either side.

The same Back and forth attitude of SWSWC not knowing how to act around orto scum can also be seen here:

SWSWC's view of you here:

Orto

Your back and forth with Yos is stifling game conversation. While I feel your points are valid, you're sidetracking discussion which is antitown. I also don't like that you feel the need to reply to every single point against you. Do you still find PtA most likely scum? If so is Yos a likely buddy or a misguided townie?

Orto scummy here.

SWSSC agress that he has valid points but also he is called antitown.

The last two questions feel fabricated.

doesn't sit well we me or tajo

That's great. Why?

All that I've said above is pretty much the why. SWSWC was fairly back and forth with their view of you. One moment they agree and defend you, the next they attack you and call you antitown. Its practically wishy-washy and I can see SWSWC-scum being that way about a possible scum buddy like you.

<snip>

I disagree with the conclusion because I disagree with the premise that "there wasn't much of a case". FYI I have played several games with rofl as town previously- Lynch All Lurkers, Hunchback of Notre Dame and RealTime Mafia - in all he was extremely aggressive. I also saw a bit of a game where he was an SK which he got nominated for a scummy for, perhaps won it but I can't recall how he played that game. Anyways, in this and Alpha he played totally different (granted it's only one half of the hydra); which is why he got vigged in that and lynched in this. I have also seen him comment that he finds it harder to play as scum. Essentially it's very hard to fake such aggressiveness which is a stalwart of his town play, when scum. I don't actually think you're scummy for pushing this argument because it's counterintuitive anyway (and it's the same thing PTA attacked you for on A&B) and you're drawing attention to yourself by brazenly saying "I wish I was on this wagon, I did have a gut read on rofl but the people who did vote him are opportunistic scum". I do however think a position on the wagon is a null-tell if anything.

What you say here seems confusing to me. Are you saying you believe my case on Zaphod trying to come off like everyone else is weak? That you think Plum was not faking or gloating?

I have seen Roflcopter be fairly agressive as town many times. And I actually read the game where he was SK and nommed for a scummy. He did not win a scummy but I did support his nomination. He was actually fairly agressive as SK in that game.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8269
I would guess because he still needed to find and eliminate the other scum group. Why such agression did not carry over to this game where he was also SK, I'm not sure. Other than that game and Alpha/Beta, I have not seen Rofl-scum. I voted rofl over his failure to claim and submissive give up additude. I thought he was scum with SWSWC and that he had given up so I was happy to drop the hammer on that. What do you think of this reasoning? What do you recall of the main reasoning given by Frog Dodge, nyballs, RW? Basically does anyone other than ZMD come off as scummy to you?

I'm feeling I bit better about plum's analization of A&B now. Only thing that still bothers me a little is the phrase "excellent news". An SK being dead is good for the town but taking the time to say it exclusivly can be a minor scum tell. I say minor mostly because that classic tell is based on the assumption scum would want to fake being happy. Since trotsky as well as A&B were SK's, town and mafia would both be happy about the death of an sk. Her comment there isn't fake but just feels like she is emphasizing it a bit much. Since she was clarifying things perhaps I'm looking too much into it. I'll talk to tajo and get his take and if he thinks its nothing then I won't bring it up again. Zaph has looked alright otherwise as of late.

Um, yeah. RW, explain this.

VOTE: FrogDodge

Unless we can figure out if A&B was lying... I see no other reason he is not dead. I kinda would like to stick with Occams Razor.

If you knew you protected FD, why did you vote him here with this added on to it?

I mentioned I found RW scummy in my more recent posts and I agree that claim is crap with an attack on FD means theres got to be a lie in there. I am up for taking this to L-1 and or hammering. Anyone want to stop me?

[PoketheAlpaca]

I am off work now and it looks like RW still can't explain his FD SK accusation coupled with the protection claim.

Rule Changes:
1. I will no longer prod or replace players. Nor will I modkill players for inactivity. You are all mature players: it is required by "the spirit of the game" that all players participate and post.

2. Each action phase will correspond with a period of day. Day 3 will equal Action Phase 2, Day 4 will be Action Phase 3, ect.

3. Twilight will last as long as I like, but I will not accept submissions for actions during periods of twilight.
4. Each day will have a deadline. At deadline the largest minority (or "first past the pole" in the event of a tie) will lynch.

Note that this totally lifts the "posting restriction" that the game has been under. Standby for a post explosion!

Unless I am mistaken Adel's new rules say a phase ends with each day. When RW is lynched day 3 and phase 2 will end. Power roles get to send their actions once during each phase. Any player that really is a power role should send their action asap so that they get it in before the lynching and end of phase. RW is currently at L-2. Meaning a kill of a player off the wagon won't cause an auto lynch and phase end. So now is probably best time to send stuff in. There are still some players that have not even posted today. How long you think we should wait before we move RW from L-2 and to the gallows?

[PoketheAlpaca]

I have no desire to see anyone else claim today. The time being spent now is on the possibility someone who has power has not sent. The time is not being given for people to claim. I don't see any reason those people should claim. They should just send actions if they haven't. Only thing they should post about in thread is, Die Scum Die. I don't get why people are even asking about your second protect when your first protect paints you as scum and an obv liar with your earlier play in relation to FD.

I think your case on J-scope is crap, RW. You asked for screen caps of a pm from k-scope and then yelled at him when you got them. Called an entire case OMGUS when I believe J-scope started voting/going after you a long time ago for stuff. Like I said before K-scope is the type of player that just acts and deals with the results later. He wagons and votes oftenly asking for hammers. That's how K-scope got a hammer for a sig. He rarely scum hunts and when he does its usually about stuff he feels he has learned from a wagon. He is highly lurkish otherwise. If you check his account the last time K-scope posted on the site was in GD on June 19th and before that it was in mishmash on June 1st. So I believe the story J-scope gave here about why K-scope hasn't be doing anything

@RW: I did get a response from him and it's a good enough excuse for me to believe it.

Why do you want a screencap of this? Why not just a bit o' text? I'll screencap, of course, but I'd much rather lynch you.

Mod: Can we get a vote count?

I don't like the modkill idea. This game shouldn't be too hard to catch up in if we can find good replacements.

Frog Dodge and Pokey Alpaca should add to the list of lynch candidates just to make it semi-official, and we should wrap up this lynch before the clock strikes 12.

Your last post RW looks like a worthless attempt to sling mud at other players. I think you are just clawing at any straw that will keep you alive at the moment. You didn't say much about ZMD when you voted him at first

during day 3

.

I have read the case against ZMD and although I do not feel it is as strong as J-Scope or Zaphod, I feel he is the best lynch at this point of the game.

I don't think we have heard nearly enough from NYBalls and Ojando who seem to be actively lurking and I would like to hear more from Orthohoops.

You basically just said you had read over things and figured it was best lynch to go through now. Looks like you were just trying to rappidly sneak onto ZMD's wagon as though you didn't suspect them as much today, at least as not as much as others. BUT weren't you voting ZMD earlier, you aren't going to mention what you thought of them then to support your vote? Truth is you didn't really think much at all. Your suspicions have been wavering some.

Here's what I mean. At one point yesterday you asked for reasons not to derail ZMD's wagon.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 68#1722468

Although just to clarify, you can not win as scum yeah or no? Can you based on your statement?

That is a theoritical question for mafiascum games... would it be an Ethics violation = for you to win as scum after that statment?

YOU are the one who went out of you way to clarify your alignemnt had nothing to do with you leaving mafiascum! So please explain why?

Also, let me know why I should not derail the ZMD wagon?

And the post you made before that one was where you voted for ZMD.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 65#1722465
So you were considering derailing that soon? Those 2 posts were back to back in the thread, they folow each other. Guess you didn't have much on ZMD even then. Also you seem to flop back and forth on Zaphod a couple of times. You vote them in this post
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 07#1655207
and then 2 posts from you later you say they are town and are giving them a free pass
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 13#1660013
I also think the timing of your last vote on Zaphod was somewhat omgus since Zaphod was suspecting of being scum saved by the trotsky lynch
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 05#1720405
I'll admit you did indeed talk about zaphod some earlier but it was not recent in terms of when you made that vote. RW posts before that vote were all about trotsky and j-scope. You said your partner wanted to vote but gave no reason why.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 41#1707641
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 71#1707671
You basically took pity on DGB for her site departure in the future. Then comes the vote on zaphod already cited and then you eventually end up agreeing with Zaphod and going after ZMD. The vote/post I speak of now were already given here, they were followed by those derail comments I pointed out. Why would you agree with someone you suspected so quickly like zaphod to jump on ZMD? And then you ask about derailing? If you were asking about derailing you clearly weren't in the mood to support your own vote on ZMD. You've been doing some wierd voting practically floping around on zaphod and ZMD. Make up your mind about your convictions and stick to them.


Shanba comes off V/la monday. If jdodge hasn't posted in a month here he probably won't before then. I know Jdodge's personality well enough to agree with Shanba there. Yos is at his beach bash til wednesday. Nuwen doesn't seem to be V/la and has been around the site so she should be seeing things even if yos isn't.

We got more than enough time to wait for both if people want me too. I got a job in computers in real life during week days. When at work, I don't like making big posts in any game since i am always more focused on my job. I'll only make big posts when I'm on break or at home as a result. BUT since I'll likly just jumping in to vote, something short and sweet, I will have absolutly no trouble logging in to do that. I don't see how RW could be town with their play and that claim has some already well noticed holes so there isn't much to say other than, Die Scum Die. I am fine with waiting til monday afternoon. I am in Eastern USA and Shanba is from brittain so he should be good. Unless you guys think I should wait til wednesday or until both of them (Yos and FD) post "RW needs to die", I'll be putting RW at L-1 monday afternoon. Whoever wants to and logs on after that can drop the hammer.

If you think or want me to wait more say how long you think I should or I'll be voting monday afternoon.

[PoketheAlpaca]

Giving you guys the heads up in case you didn't already know the info. I pokerface have had some pretty shitty access the past month. Recently bought a new house of my own. I have spent alot of time filling out paperwork and or packing. ATM I am waiting for the people at utility departments to get their act together. Also waiting for a wax seal under the toilet to get repaired. Can't really move in if I can't use a bathroom. So I haven't had much time for access the site wear I am living at right now and posting at work not something I like doing in games.

After RW's flip I'm not 100% sure what to think of Zaphod and ZMD. I was certain RW was scum and that he wouldn't be paired with either of them. Since RW was town that's off the table. RW is gonna need to explain why they protected and attacked the same guy when the game is over. That made no logical sence. I might take some time to reread ZMD and Zaphod before that fiasco again but there are some comments/questions I have for them right now

@Zaphod,

Deep south format dictates that scum can day talk amongst themselves at any time. Your scum must be lurking case is based on the idea scum didn't spend much time organizing the yos kill. Everybody has been posting at least somewhere on the site if not in our game, even I sneak some MD and GD posts while at work. There doesn't seem to be any way you can really tell who is spending what time on a scum action based on just our game postings

@ZMD,

some of your defense to the case on you yesterday was meta information. I thought you said something about Zazie always doing a giant catch up post whenever she comes back into a game. You've been talking to her it would appear and yet she hasn't done any of that. Also you said you don't play like this as scum. Something to extent of you believe you are better or more confident in pushing your suspicions as scum. So you are better at pushing cases on people when you already know the outcome and its effect on your faction. You have not be giving any real big or well thought out cases on other players. You aren't pushing but at the same time you don't really seem to be talking about or questioning your reads in the game that much. You mention what you read but you really don't go into detail why. Basically there isn't a great way for us to truly tell how certain you are of your cases without you talking about them. There is no way you can assert you are less or more confident, less or more scum, without reason. Either I am misunderstanding your defence or there seems to be a hole in it. I also rather dislike the idea of a defence based around "Oh I wouldn't do this as scum". You have not shown us any links or proof of that point and there is no way we can tell you aren't acting this way to specifically use your meta to your advantage. Also I like I said before that definatly seemed like a soft claim to me.

Zmd is barely under attack. He may be the first wagon of the day. But already he's throwing in the towel, refusing to claim, accepting his lynch,

but soft-claiming a power role in the hope that he'll be spared

without risk of being counterclaimed, or being accountable. And we are warned we won't get more at L-1 with everyone salivating to hammer. That's scumtalk.

Also, this is gonna piss some people off, but if I get near a lynch, I won't claim. Enough people see me as scummy that I can accept my own lynch instead of being lynched later when we have less mislynches availible to us. And if I were to survive the lynch, I have the scum WIFOMing over my role and trying to decide if they need to worry about me or not. All I am going to say is that

if I am a power role, I have no valuable information to share yet.

That's as close to a claim as I am getting even if I am at L-1 with everyone else threatening to hammer. Take it how you will, but that's what I am doing and I'm set on that.

By saying 'yet' he is infering he could have some later which would be a soft claim and a way to bargin or ask to be spared later.

I'd be ok lynching Zaphod or JScope. I'd be willing to lynch ny. I could compromise on Ojando or Ortohoops if needed.

Any new reasons? Can you re-list your old reasons?

Anti-RW and quick to agree with what we thought was a catch.

I'm pretty sure there was alot of people who made a deal out of RW's claim not matching his play. You brought it up and I believe Zaphod, j-scope, myself, ortohoops and ojando all agreed with you.

I am also still suspicious of Ortohoops. The suspicion information I outlined for them being paired with SWSWC here:

Freaking huge post wrote:

1) Hoops "fluff posts" weren't fluff in the same way.
2) Hers didn't have the same frequency.

I'll admit there was some level of difference in terms of frequency and what the posts were about but I still saw that as somewhat fluff.

4) It was Hoops that did it, not me.

Ortolan and hoops have the same role and are the same player. This point is mute. You could just talk to your partner about it and see what they may be thinking. Have you spoken with them recently or are you pretty much playing the game all by yourself now, kinda what Jahudo is doing in terms of J-scope?

Re-reading Hoops early posts I think they were a

bit deliberately abrasive

and maybe not well thought-out because of the attacks they could leave us open to. I don't see how they could have a scum agenda behind them though, she is drawing a lot of attention to us by both her comments and by the way she is posting in light of the rules.

Is this in cocern to what could be seen as fluff or is this in regards to how she thought scum might avoid posting fluff at all costs? I'm not sure which of those you perscieve as diliberatly abrasive nor do I understand why you think it was dileberately without a context clarification.

Assuming you are discussing how she thought scum would avoid fluff earlier on, the only scum agenda I could percieve there is that by getting townies to attack in the direction of non-fluff posters constantly, players may feel encouraged to post often as a result to avoid attack. This would length the thread/game and help the scum. It is a bit of a complicated agenda though so if she is town she unlikly considered this as a possibility. The alternative to this possible agenda is that she truly thought A&B was scum for avoiding of fluff and pretty much the entire wagon on A&B didn't see it as that from the cases laid out. This line of thought brings 2 possibilities:

1.

Hooplas suspicions of A&B weren't genuine. Her case was crap opposite of why A&B was attacked. She wanted to attack and get rid of A&B without going against her own already outlined views because of how that may draw suspicion

or 2.

She really didn't think things well through enough as you suggest.
hmm... I guess I can see how B/your defense is a viable answer there then since I believe Tajo was not thinking or paying attention to either game when he made identical posts in both games in the same timeframes as I ponted out earlier.

Check the time stamp and words of these posts from our game
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 63#1642063
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 08#1645208
and compare them to these posts from the alpha game
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 65#1642065
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 06#1645206
Tajo was clearly under the wrong impression that these games were the same. He has to treat and learn from both of them and he should now have learned from these mistakes with recent postings not being of the same manner.

So I guess I will accept your defense for ONLY that part.

_________________

CONECTIONS SECTION START

3) You were actually attacking other people strongly for doing it while doing it yourself.

Rewind, you are the one I am accusing of doing this. You attacked me first for the fluff and I responded saying that you had done a type of fluff aswell and thus you were not blameless.

My response to this
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 95#1669295
I wasn't attacking ortohoops for lack of content but attacking them primarily for their logic.

They said our wagon was oportunistic and that scum wouldn't post fluff; they helped lynch A&B with that attitude. They said my wagon was originally oportunistic and scum would avoid fluff; now they are on our wagon and say scum would do fluff. They said we fluff posted; Hoops did some too.

Basically they are going back on some key points of their logic as well as commiting things they once deemed wrong. I see that as hypocracy.

odd, I'm just now realizing that the given link there was something said by SWSWC and I said that in response to how they percieved I was attacking you.

PtA attacking Ortohoops for lack of content was amusing. Pot meet kettle.

<snip>

PtA is self contradicting with his long post saying they think Zaphod is scum, rather strongly, but landing a vote elsewhere. Also interesting that PtA's attacking Ortohoops for being hypocritical is itself hypocritical. Would you mind self voting?

What is said here by SWSC is an attack of us(PtA) on the grounds of our ortohoops suspicions. This can be consider an awkward response or bad defense of ortohoops in the terms of how SWSWC later looked at ortohoops in that same post.

Not really liking Orto's defense that "my hydra partner did it!" in regards to the three fluff posts PtA pointed out.

You and your hydra are the same player in this game. That's a BS defense. I do agree however that some of those "fluff posts" were direct replies to questions asked by other players.

Because they actually give credit to some of our(PtA's) suspicions on Ortohoops. I am greatly considering the possibility you(ortohoops) are scum with SWSWC because they seemed to defend you from some logic and then imediatly attack you with it. I think they may have been confused on whether to defend or distance from their scum buddy there pending how other players may view the case on you. By being in between like that they could defend or bus you without reprecussion as they would have the option to be on either side.

The same Back and forth attitude of SWSWC not knowing how to act around orto scum can also be seen here:

SWSWC's view of you here:

Orto

Your back and forth with Yos is stifling game conversation. While I feel your points are valid, you're sidetracking discussion which is antitown. I also don't like that you feel the need to reply to every single point against you. Do you still find PtA most likely scum? If so is Yos a likely buddy or a misguided townie?

Orto scummy here.

SWSSC agress that he has valid points but also he is called antitown.

The last two questions feel fabricated.

doesn't sit well we me or tajo

That's great. Why?

All that I've said above is pretty much the why. SWSWC was fairly back and forth with their view of you. One moment they agree and defend you, the next they attack you and call you antitown. Its practically wishy-washy and I can see SWSWC-scum being that way about a possible scum buddy like you.

CONECTIONS SECTION END

<snip>

I disagree with the conclusion because I disagree with the premise that "there wasn't much of a case". FYI I have played several games with rofl as town previously- Lynch All Lurkers, Hunchback of Notre Dame and RealTime Mafia - in all he was extremely aggressive. I also saw a bit of a game where he was an SK which he got nominated for a scummy for, perhaps won it but I can't recall how he played that game. Anyways, in this and Alpha he played totally different (granted it's only one half of the hydra); which is why he got vigged in that and lynched in this. I have also seen him comment that he finds it harder to play as scum. Essentially it's very hard to fake such aggressiveness which is a stalwart of his town play, when scum. I don't actually think you're scummy for pushing this argument because it's counterintuitive anyway (and it's the same thing PTA attacked you for on A&B) and you're drawing attention to yourself by brazenly saying "I wish I was on this wagon, I did have a gut read on rofl but the people who did vote him are opportunistic scum". I do however think a position on the wagon is a null-tell if anything.

What you say here seems confusing to me. Are you saying you believe my case on Zaphod trying to come off like everyone else is weak? That you think Plum was not faking or gloating?

I have seen Roflcopter be fairly agressive as town many times. And I actually read the game where he was SK and nommed for a scummy. He did not win a scummy but I did support his nomination. He was actually fairly agressive as SK in that game.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8269
I would guess because he still needed to find and eliminate the other scum group. Why such agression did not carry over to this game where he was also SK, I'm not sure. Other than that game and Alpha/Beta, I have not seen Rofl-scum. I voted rofl over his failure to claim and submissive give up additude. I thought he was scum with SWSWC and that he had given up so I was happy to drop the hammer on that. What do you think of this reasoning? What do you recall of the main reasoning given by Frog Dodge, nyballs, RW? Basically does anyone other than ZMD come off as scummy to you?

hasn't really been refuted or acknowledged by them since I made the case

PTA: I (ortolan) am playing this game solely at present, Hoops left us open to attacks at the beginning of the game (albeit ones which aren't warranted); because they could be spun as similar to fluff posts

Again, you guys have the same role. Don't make excuses or say poor me. Deal with it head on by explaining or rationalizing what you can.

Yes, I think your case on Zaphod trying to come across like everyone else was weak.

Doesn't say why

Yes, not only Zmd comes across as scummy but RW

now.

The question was a

then

question not a

now

question

Because they've claimed to doctor someone they tried to paint with suspicion for not being night-killed. I also see little basis for their claimed protect on PTA. Thus I am ready to lynch, simply waiting PR resolution a la PTA's 362.

They acknowledge everything except the conections coments and don't ever really go into great detail. Like Yos2 had pointed out, Ortohoops didn't imediatly acknowledge the flip of SWSWC like they might have expected it to be scum. I think Ortohoops may be distancing or ignoring the affairs between them earlier because he knows he is conected to scum.

I did speak with tajo yesterday via pm about his earlier comment. I asked him what he didn't like about the back and forth between ZMD and Zaphod. He told me he felt that part of it was coming accross as though it was forced. He said he'd try to outline his thoughts to me later when he got out of the office. I am yet to here back from him since so I guess he'll show me and or the rest of you guys what he means soon enough.

[PoketheAlpaca]

PtA, why no vote?

Go back and look I definatly wanted to vote but figured we should wait a while in case there were town roles that needed to send stuff. We had some players that hadn't posted and or were on v/la. So I figured we should wait a bit and we could since deadline wasn't close. I have been wondering if that idea was a bad one or not somewhat and or wondering if the timing of ojando's hammer was wrong or ok. I thought they were the ones who wanted me to wait perhaps only one member of their pair thought we should wait. Either way they haven't done anything real scummy throughout the game so I might be jumping a shadows I guess.

Basically there isn't a great way for us to truly tell how certain you are of your cases without you talking about them. There is no way you can assert you are less or more confident, less or more scum, without reason. Either I am misunderstanding your defence or there seems to be a hole in it. I also rather dislike the idea of a defence based around "Oh I wouldn't do this as scum". You have not shown us any links or proof of that point

and there is no way we can tell you aren't acting this way to specifically use your meta to your advantage.

Most of the people here have played with me and can use that meta.

My computer is too slow to go get links all over the place. If you want an example of something specific though, I don't mind taking the time to find it.

Also I like I said before that definatly seemed like a soft claim to me.

It was. I wanted scum to pick it up.

I'm not buying your last statement.

Zmd is barely under attack. He may be the first wagon of the day. But already he's throwing in the towel, refusing to claim, accepting his lynch,

but soft-claiming a power role in the hope that he'll be spared

without risk of being counterclaimed, or being accountable. And we are warned we won't get more at L-1 with everyone salivating to hammer. That's scumtalk.

Also, this is gonna piss some people off, but if I get near a lynch, I won't claim. Enough people see me as scummy that I can accept my own lynch instead of being lynched later when we have less mislynches availible to us. And if I were to survive the lynch, I have the scum WIFOMing over my role and trying to decide if they need to worry about me or not. All I am going to say is that

if I am a power role, I have no valuable information to share yet.

That's as close to a claim as I am getting even if I am at L-1 with everyone else threatening to hammer. Take it how you will, but that's what I am doing and I'm set on that.

By saying 'yet' he is infering he could have some later which would be a soft claim and a way to bargin or ask to be spared later.

Can you give me a contrary reason to why you included the yet? Also you directly said you would not claim close to lynch and it appears you indeed have claimed while you were at L-3 too. Why the change of plans there?

_________________

hasn't really been refuted or acknowledged by them since I made the case

What part haven't we replied to? Yes we agreed with what SWSWC said early in the game, good catch. But do you have anything ultimately more substantial to your case than "well you might have been subtly trying to push the town in the same direction?" which is totally unprovable. I believe I've responded to all your points in previous posts.

I'm not trying to say you might have been subtly trying to push the town together while in tandem on the same wagon. I believe that was yosariwen's argument. I'm trying to say there is reason to believe you are scum based on how SWSWC spoke of you. I do my best scum hunting when I am searching for connections between players and I believe there could be one between the two of you.

About RW: I didn't think he was scum until he claimed doctor- at that point his lynch was perfectly justified because his claimed actions made no sense as a town doctor. I'm not sure of the timing of the votes but I would only really consider those made before that claim potentially scummy.

I'll agree that voting RW for that claim was valid reasoning. I will not dispute that. As far as the votes on RW before that claim being potentially scummy I'm pretty sure Zaphod, j-scope, and nyball were all going after RW long before the day started so its not like they voted without reason at that moment. If you disagree or think I may have missed something then please object. Still I was trying to see if you had gained any other suspects from the trotskys wagon itself. You seemed to want to look at the entire wagon for suspects and ended up only coming up with one.

I did speak with tajo yesterday via pm about his earlier comment. I asked him what he didn't like about the back and forth between ZMD and Zaphod. He told me he felt that part of it was coming accross as though it was forced. He said he'd try to outline his thoughts to me later when he got out of the office. I am yet to here back from him since so I guess he'll show me and or the rest of you guys what he means soon enough.

According to that logic he thinks they're both scum attempting a contrived bus (which makes little sense to me at this stage of the game when they could endgame with two mislynches). So why isn't he considering a vote on one or the other? (I recommend Zmd).

I'm still waiting on Tajo to fill me in. If I had to guess I'd assume his idea has something to do with Zaphod calling ZMD town and then going after ZMD when ZMD had recieved some votes. Or it could involve how ZMD has said zaphod was his main suspect and then he votes J-scope instead. Basically I find myself agreeing with frogdodge

DGB seems to be honestly looking for scum. JScope seems happy to just ride through the game.

And this is just deranged. J-Scope may be riding through the game but it's not because he's content to do so it's because he's never been under any real pressure. His scumhunting effort, however, has been perfectly fine up to this point. Just because a player has yet to be suspected does not make them any more likely to be scum.

Waiting to hear Tajo's idea is the only reason I'm not voting somebody right now. I'd like to hear it to decide if ZMD or Zaphod is a better lynch than ortohoops

_________________

One half of Zaphod will be VLA July 7-14.

Am I correct in assuming this to be the DGB half?


I think I'm going to try to get some time to better analyze nyball. I haven't really been discussing or looking into their play too much and i'd like to see if I can understand what everybody is talking about. IIRC they jumped onto the trotsky wagon as the forth vote when nyball was already the forth vote on RW during that day. I believe a reason they cited was thinking the trotsky wagon had a better chance of making it to a lynch. They were the 4th vote on each wagon so I think I'd like to look more into why they jumped. I'd like to go back and see how they looked at RW in comparison to Trotsky. I think this may be a good avenue to look into in terms of finding scum on either wagon.

[PoketheAlpaca]

Here:

Vote : Zmd.

[PoketheAlpaca]

If you re-read my subsequent posts you'll see you're entirely re-treading old ground. I made that post because I was in a rush to beat the prod, if you read my next post I addressed this point after Yos brought it up. When you say your bad feeling "starts" at that point- is there any more substance to it, or are you just re-treading the points Yos and PTA already made?

Just because you responded does not mean I buy your response or that it defeats my case. Even Yosarian said he still suspected you after you made your response to him. The best kinda of scum hunting I do is finding connections between players. I pointed out 3 out of 4 scum in the F&E&E game and the Cowboy bebop game early on and I plan on sticking to my suspicions firmly here. I think you are likly scum with SWSWC.

Rules state mafia got 3 members so I think I'll search for the the other scum now too.

@Nyballosulgniirkps,

1.

At various times earlier in the game you state you don't see the case on zaphod from trotsky or others. Judging your recent reads post it would appear you have changed your mind about them. Are their back and forth reads on ZMD your only reason? How does this relate to your early game read of Zaphod?

2.

in this post
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 35#1707635
You get off RW's wagon and vote trotsky as trotsky's wagon is picking up before page 12. You were the 4th vote on RW and the 4th vote on Trotsky at that point. Is there any great reason you can give for thinking a wagon on Trotsky would go through over your wagon on RW? Why didn't you continue to try to push for an RW lynch when you clearly perfered it and needed the same number of votes?

3.

In that post You don't mention any strong suspicions on trotsky. The only time you mention an actual case for suspecting trotsky before that post is a month earlier here:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 54#1662254

I think this post is scum:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 35#1655435

It reeks of scum glee at having found vig/sk:
a) shows less than passing concern for AB's alignment
b) the way he ask for Zaphod's kill looks like scum seeing a great opportunity at augmenting the bodies count

To this I add that I don't see the case on Zaphod and don't like the way trostky has been pushing it. Plus, I don't think DGB is cynical enough to use emotional blackmail as scum to get out of trouble, so my read of her is town at the moment.

Vote trotsky

Did you think that alone was reason enough to lynch trotsky?

4.

Me and you had a discussion earlier. You said RW's unvote of A&B was a town tell. If I recall correctly you said it had something to do with RW wanting to utilize A&B's kill. How does this relate to your read of trotsky being scum for wanting to use the kill?

5.

Your main reasons for going after RW and ZMD were you believed the attack both had made on Frogdodging was a great misrepresentation. You sad earlier you believed RW was more guilty of the attack than ZMD because RW had done direct quoting of the post where frogdodge dealt with their mortality. When RW flipped Town it didn't seem to effect your main standing reasons.

@nyballs: Is ZMD still your top suspect? How much of it is this reason:

Top two candidates on my list right now are Raging Wishbone and ZMD. Both made the ridiculous attempt of painting Frog Dodging as possessing confidence that they wouldn't die by taking their post out of content.

Yes. I still find the attack on Frog Dodging to be incredibly scummy, regardless of the fact that Raging Wishbone, in their deranged state of mind, clung to it despite being town. There are other things, though, the main point which comes to mind being his complete detachment from the game earlier on, though that point on its own doesn't hold as much weight in my opinion because of the mechanic that previously governed the game.

Vote: Zmd

You aslo mention you had other things and then undermine that logic by saying it doesn't hold that much weight. I don't think you really had any other strong reasons for going after them. Can you explain why you were willing to continue going after ZMD for the same main reasons you went after RW when you said ZMD was less guilty of it? Can you also state if there were truly other things that you actually felt strongly about?

_________________

Something I've noticed is that with the exception of Yosariwen, you were a supporter of every 3 or so listing here:

Whom I'm willing to lynch now (update it as you post):
1. Zaphod Beeblebrox (1) Ojando
3. Zmd (2) Ojando, Ortohoops, nybaloosulgniirkps
4. Trotsky(4): nyballosulgniirkps, ZMD, Zaphod Beeblebrox, Ortohoops
5. Ojando (1): ZMD
7. Yosariwen (1): nybaloosulgniirkps(?)
8. Ortohoops (1): ZMD
10. PoketheAlpaca (0):
11. nyballosulgniirkps (0):
12. Raging Wishbone (2): Zaphod Beeblebrox, Ojando, nyballosulgniirkps
13. J-Scope (0):
14. Frog Dodging (0):

I'm thinking Nyball might be scum that has been trying to skate bye, by agreeing with everyone else's suspicions. Many have mentioned Zaphod's back and forth reads. nyball doesn't seem to have covered any new reason. Does nyballs new suspicions factor in nyball originally not liking Trotsky's case on zaphod because nyball didn't believe DGB to be that cynical? How much did they really suspect trotsky and or push the RW and ZMD wagons further than diliking the attacks on FD? These are the reasons I have made the 5 comments above.

Also I am not sure I follow why some people are considering no lynching today. Not really sure how its going to benefit us. Unless I figure that out or get an explaination on it I think I'm up for voting/lynching ortohoops or Nyball.

[PoketheAlpaca]

EVERYONE: Is it a good or bad strategy to be looking for both scum right through connections now?

I can see some of what orto is saying in terms of them agreeing with each other but the idea J-scope is prompting Nyball to post is a bit far-fetched. Deep South Format allows scum to day talk so if j-scope wanted to prompt his buddy to post he'd pm them or use a quick topic outside the game. He wouldn't prompt them in the game thread. I don't think that element warants as effective distancing or a conection. J-scope has been very active this game so I can understand them wanting nyball to post more since nyball hasn't been active. FD has also said people need to post more so I don't really see a problem with J-scope doing it.

Trying to connect players is a strategy that can find scum but it works best when you already know one players alignment. I don't think what SWSWC said about nyball or j-scope was telling. And at the moment we don't know either nyball or j-scope alignment so I don't think there is much to be gleaned. Orto trying to connect them before one flips makes me wonder if Orto already knows one of their alignments and or sees nyballs lynch inevitable.

Exactly how many times has orto mentioned Nyballs? I just did a game search for the letters nyb in ortohoops and ortolan's posts. Outside the two posts
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 28#1766928
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 39#1770039
where Orto trys to connect J-scope to nyballs he hase mentioned nyballs in these places

We got prodded.

Hi, sorry for the delay, this game is harder to read than the other. I also gave alpha more attention because timing is more critical over there.

same.

Mod: I think Zmd has three votes- me Frog and nyb

Whom I'm willing to lynch now (update it as you post):
1. Zaphod Beeblebrox (1) Ojando
3. Zmd (2) Ojando, Ortohoops
4. Trotsky(4): nyballosulgniirkps, ZMD, Zaphod Beeblebrox, Ortohoops
5. Ojando (1): ZMD
7. Yosariwen (1): nybaloosulgniirkps
8. Ortohoops (1): ZMD
10. PoketheAlpaca (0):
11. nyballosulgniirkps (0):
12. Raging Wishbone (2): Zaphod Beeblebrox, Ojando
13. J-Scope (0):
14. Frog Dodging (0):

Wow that's it? And I thought J-scope was the one ignoring nyball until recently. You haven't given much about nyball yourself throughout the game. I also Searched nyball's posts for the phrase orto:

My reaction to RagingWishbone's unvote was the same as Ortohoops' - the reason is that town would be more likely to consider the possible benefits of that claim being legit, and utilizing the kill of the vigilante without realizing that they already possess the potential to make up for it themselves with their limitless lynches. While it's only in the benefit of the SK to kill town,

both

serial killers and vigilantes *want* to kill scum. The more likely to give off the knee-jerk reaction of unvoting would be town.

Yosariwen's re-entrance into the game is very good. I'm getting a strong town vibe from him, and while I believe the point Ortohoops raises about his contradictory Raging Wishbone vote is valid, I believe his explanation is sufficient, nor do I believe it warrants the amount of attention that it has received. The pushes against him don't feel genuine, particularly from Raging Wishbone, and as such...

Vote: Raging Wishbone

for that horrendous vote justification in post 186

<snip>

However, the ease of the wagon on PoketheAlpaca seems off to me; it seems too easy, no one seems to disagree with it at all. I can't quite explain it; I see scumtells and they look scummy on their own, but the wagon feels like it might be scum supported to me, or at least not scum opposed, if that makes sense; no one is arguing against this wagon, or trying to start a competing wagon, and that feels like a bad sign to me. Nuwen says she would like to see more people comment on this wagon.

So...now you want as many comments as possible on the wagon, prolonging the time it will take to lynch which you said just before you wanted to shorten? Your defence also makes no sense: "he's acting scummy but...I don't think he's scum".

You're putting words into his mouth. That entire paragraph you quoted is nothing more than an observation, yet you are twisting it to appear as if he is requesting that people carry it out.

a couple of these:

Whom I'm willing to lynch now (update it as you post):
1. Zaphod Beeblebrox (1) Ojando
3. Zmd (2) Ojando, Ortohoops, nybaloosulgniirkps
4. Trotsky(4): nyballosulgniirkps, ZMD, Zaphod Beeblebrox, Ortohoops
5. Ojando (1): ZMD
7. Yosariwen (1): nybaloosulgniirkps(?)
8. Ortohoops (1): ZMD
10. PoketheAlpaca (0):
11. nyballosulgniirkps (0):
12. Raging Wishbone (2): Zaphod Beeblebrox, Ojando, nyballosulgniirkps
13. J-Scope (0):
14. Frog Dodging (0):

Ortohoops - Neutral

Except for that last part and maybe nyball disagreeing with orto about yos there isn't much there either.

There are several other players who I have mentioned very minimally. Bonus points if you can name them.

Is that enough for bonus points?

_________________

In that post You don't mention any strong suspicions on trotsky. The only time you mention an actual case for suspecting trotsky before that post is a month earlier here:

<Snip>

Did you think that alone was reason enough to lynch trotsky?

This was made by Springlullaby and, because of what I have said about there being virtually no communication between us, I don't know any more of why she placed that vote than what is in written in the post.

My

reason was more gut-based; I recall not liking Trotsky's complete detachment from the game, and unwillingness to fight the grim situation he was in. Not something I would have expected from roflcopter. But I didn't feel like spending hours sifting through posts just so I could match the intensity of this game and justify my vote to everyone else. Call that scummy if you please, but I don't have the fire inside to do it anymore.

In this paragraph you mention the main reason roflcopter was attacked by Zaphod, rofl's lurkage/detachment from the game. Gut is the only reason you mention as your own. How long did it take you to right this paragraph? Not long huh? So i don't see why you couldn't have given something short and to this equivalence back then.

You aslo mention you had other things and then undermine that logic by saying it doesn't hold that much weight. I don't think you really had any other strong reasons for going after them. Can you explain why you were willing to continue going after ZMD for the same main reasons you went after RW when you said ZMD was less guilty of it? Can you also state if there were truly other things that you actually felt strongly about?

Again, "other things" is referring to general vibes that I did not feel like pursuing or justifying in the eyes of others.

"Less guilty" also does not mean "not guilty." It means Raging Wishbone is of higher priority. With him out of the picture, ZMD raised rank in the queue of scumbaggedness

Then why did you even bring up those vibes or other things? You brought them up and then said they carried 'less' weight. By saying less weight you undermine your argument. I think that if you genuinely had other reasons at all you would have expressed them as 'some' weight. That way you would actually be giving a better case and or hunting with better reasoning.

Not going deeply into your reasoning on trotsky makes me think you were trying to sneak in a vote in order to get any lynch and not the lynch you seemed to be wanting, especially since you didn't seem to realize the wagons were at the same size.

You get off RW's wagon and vote trotsky as trotsky's wagon is picking up before page 12. You were the 4th vote on RW and the 4th vote on Trotsky at that point. Is there any great reason you can give for thinking a wagon on Trotsky would go through over your wagon on RW? Why didn't you continue to try to push for an RW lynch when you clearly perfered it and needed the same number of votes?

This has been explained already. We were under the post constraint at that point, and closing in on the limit. I was pushing for a lynch to go through, and did not mind seeing Trotsky go. This was back when people were posting absurdly long posts. I didn't accurately count the votes, but things seemed to be moving towards Trotsky. And as such, I placed my vote where I felt it would most likely lead to a lynch I was not opposed to. It worked.

I think I'm ready to take this ball to the hoop. Deadline is next wednesday. Looks like adel extended it from friday because of her v/la. I'm getting kinda sleepy at the moment. What exactly is the logic behind the no lynch at this stage again?

Can we even no lynch with Adel's new rules?

We got 7 alive so is its not exactly mylo or am i miscounting/forgetting something. I am ready to lynch nyball today.

[PoketheAlpaca]

@Zaphod,

are the reasons you have recently given the only reasons you want a lynch?

can you explain your theory on why scum may not be killing and or paying attention?

have you seen the recent info on no lynch?

Vote: No lynch

[PoketheAlpaca]

I don't see how that's a soft claim DGB. I'll admit that some of the statements come off between opinion and early actions speculation but I don't see how they gaurantee anyone's role one way or the other or promise future info. No one needs to claim until its truly mass claim time or until they are L-2. I don't think mass claim time needs to happen until the next day or phase finally arrives and or we have 6 people

I'm still wondering if nyball is going to react to some of my recent statements but while I am here I've got to point this out. I think Ortolan may have just made the same tell Nuwen made in the alpha game

The following was said by nuwen (Yosariwen-scum) in the alpha game.

Incamn's crumbing is neutral for now, as there are multiple

data roles

than can be of either alignment and would benefit from early crumbs. Currently a null tell.

And this is what ortolan said in this game.

After Ojanen's last post I am almost certain he is either scum or the

doctor

A scum was caught in alpha because they talked about what they thought was a role slip or crumb. Yosariwen outed Incamn. I think Orto may have done the same in terms of pointing out possible power roles.

[PoketheAlpaca]

Also to be honest with hoopla, K-scope, springluliby, and all of FD now not posting and me and plum being on very shity access I'm begining to wonder if there is a point to continuing this game.

[PoketheAlpaca]

Hey wait a second something doesn't look right here. Somebody double check my math on this

You didn't send pregame that's ok PL was playing. And in the role pm it says PL

did NOT yet send during phase 1

. It is now phase 5 which would mean:

You sent something during phase 1 = days 1 and 2
You sent something during phase 2 = day 3
You sent something during phase 3 = day 4
You sent something during phase 4 = day 5

That's a total of 4 messages. You show three and of the three Your reciept and send for number

2 has the title that shows it was sent during phase 1

. You state that your reciept number

4 was resent when claus took over which would mean that one was sent at the end of and during phase 4

Then you have message 3. I am assuming you sent protects during phase 2 and phase 3. Message 3 can't be both of those sends considering

the inbox and sentbox views

. Phase 2 went from Jun 23 to June 27. You do NOT have a protect being shown as though it was sent during that phase.

Did I miscount or did I just catch scum?

[PoketheAlpaca]

Yep I went over it again. You don't show what was sent during phase 2 after the rules changed but before RW got lynched, June 23 to June 27 I believe I have scum. Assuming you are a doc Ojando, send in your protect during this phase to be active during the next. do NOT tell us what you sent just that you did and then we can pile on and lynch nyball scum

[PoketheAlpaca]

Well I thought and thought. I talked to Tajo and he pointed out to me that nyballs has been on more wagons of non-latvians than Frogdodging throughout the game.

Apples and Banana: 6 :

sex w/ shafteds wife club

, Ortohoops,

Trotsky

, Death the Hogfather,

Incamnito

,

Raging Wishbone

,
PoketheAlpaca: 2:

Yosariwen

, Frog Dodging,
Ortohoops: 2 :

Zmd, Apples and Banana

Trotsky: 1 :PoketheAlpaca
Death the Hogfather: 1 :Zaphod Beeblebrox,
Zmd: 1 :J-Scope,

not voting: 1 :nyballosulgniirkps,

while 14 players are alive, 8 votes will lynch

Apples and Banana: 8 :

sex w/ shafteds wife club

, Ortohoops,

Trotsky

, Death the Hogfather,

Incamnito

,

Raging Wishbone

, Zaphod, Jscope.
PoketheAlpaca: 2: Yosariwen, Frog Dodging,
Ortohoops: 2 :Zmd, Apples and Banana
Trotsky: 1 :PoketheAlpaca

not voting: 1 :nyballosulgniirkps,

while 14 players are alive, 8 votes will lynch

Raging Wishbone: 4 :

Yosariwen

, nyballosulgniirkps, Zaphod Beeblebrox, J-Scope
Zaphod Beeblebrox: 2 :Trotsky, Ojando
PoketheAlpaca: 1 :Ortohoops,
Frog Dodging 1 :J-Scope,
Trotsky: 1 :Zmd,
Ortohoops: 1 :PoketheAlpaca
zmd: 1 :Frog Dodging,
J-Scope: 1 :Raging Wishbone

not voting: 0 :
while 11 players are alive, 6 votes will lynch

Trotsky: 6 :

Zmd

, Ortohoops, Frog Dodging,

Raging Wishbone

, nyballosulgniirkps, PoketheAlpaca
Raging Wishbone: 3 :Yosariwen, , Zaphod Beeblebrox, J-Scope
Zaphod Beeblebrox: 2 :Trotsky, Ojando

not voting: 0 :
while 11 players are alive, 6 votes will lynch

Raging Wishbone: 5 :Zaphod Beeblebrox, J-Scope,

Zmd

, nyballosulgniirkps, Ojando
Zmd: 2 :Frog Dodging, Ortohoops,
J-Scope: 1 :

Raging Wishbone

not voting: 1 :PoketheAlpaca,

while 9 players are alive, 5 votes will lynch

Zmd: 5 :Ortohoops, Frog Dodging, nyballosulgniirkps, PoketheAlpaca, J-Scope
J-Scope: 1 :Zmd,

not voting: 2 :Ojando, Zaphod Beeblebrox,

while 8 players are alive, 5 votes will lynch

Adding up

11. nyballosulgniirkps 4
13. J-Scope 4
1. Zaphod Beeblebrox 3
8. Ortohoops 3
5. Ojando 2
14. Frog Dodging 2

Ojando's recent post doesn't seem to make sence to me in few areas. If you thought that was a bad crumb or some claim miscomunication with jdodge and shanba then why did you vote nyball? I think they lost me somewhere. Also it looks more like FrogDodging(Shanba) was mentioning their reads and not who they were or had protected.

Also I think I may have found an answer to my question:

Shanba said earlier that a doctor should crumb any results they have. Him being doc while suggesting others should crumb is a little odd. You think he wouldn't need to suggest it if he was one himself. That kinda seems contradictorary

FD forgot to send a protect when the first kill was stopped. They weren't responsible for that save so them suggesting others crumb would make sence because they would want to know who this other doc protected.

There are 2 scum left and in review it looks like there are people starting to fall into camps. Orto point out that Nyball and J-scope seem like they could be conected. Jahudo's recent vote on nyballs was with his account and not j-scope so perhaps that and his recent comments are distancing to avoid being linked to them if nyballs goes down. Its either that or Orto ius trying to make j-scope look like nyballs partner when orto is himself. I still have some nagging orto suspicions on my mind from previous days and what I said then. Ojando seems to be falling into a camp with FD given FD's recent comments about them. I can't find a place before day 4 where FD called Ojando likly town. The possible confusion I see with Ojando's last post and vote could provide the other half of that link. Orto and Zaphod seemed to be on the same page with their reads of each other and how they both dislike FD's stalling. Of all those pairings only 1 has both a possible doc faker and a vanilla claimer.

Also in review of nyball's more recent comments here:

Yes, either mistake is possible. The question is: which one is more likely? You seemed to draw the conclusion that the mistake as scum is the only one that makes any sense. There's nothing in those shots that contradicts a doctor claim.

It is likly they presented screen shots in an attempt to clear themselves instead of an attempt to find scum. Basically they claim not to be able to fake it or have software so how were they intending on personally checking the screens and figuring out who might have faked if they didn't have the software?

I am hesitant to say that Ojando is lying after we saw three trackers last game, although three doctors and two trackers seems a bit overboard. I would like for him to provide similar screen shots, stat.

Were they just planning on having other players like myself, zaph, and j-scope do it and not look into it personally themselves?

I can see sence behind orto's wouldn't scum go after 2 different people idea. FD claimed to protect ojando at the time of the second save. If Ojando made one save and FD made the next that would mean me, ojando, and FD are town. Nyball claimed to have protected FD during the second save. If Ojando made the first save and nyball made the next then that would mean FD, nyball, and ojando are all town. That doesn't make sence. we can't have 4 docs so if scum did change targets it is more likly ojando and FD made each save respectivly.

When I compare nyball's overall play to FD's play I come to the conclusion nyballs is scumier so here we go.

Vote: nyballosulgniirkps

If they are scum its likly j-scope or orto is the last one. If nyball isn't scum then its likly I have been wrong about frogdodging and one of orto or Zaphod is with him.

[PoketheAlpaca]

There can't be 4 doctors. The choice is obvious

I think we should dine on frogs' legs

Pass the salt

Vote: Frog Dodging

[PoketheAlpaca]

That might have been the worst simulpost ever. I hope you sent your action before I voted.

[PoketheAlpaca]

Karyuu and Seraphiom pmed that this was ok.

Tajo also gives blessing to post it. Vote is unanimous.

Bulgarian QT
http://www.quicktopic.com/43/H/4eg72swmUquC

See if you can post the latvian one some time Orto. I think I would find that interesting. Adel telling the Latvians there was another Scumteam when they went off on some tangent was probably the right idea since the rules of the game were being taken out of context and it was part of Adel's setup design to have them know before everyone else did. I think Adel made the right choise there. The error they made with Incamn only being a tracker in Beta and not in alpha might have had some effect on how yosariwen got lynched for exposing a tracker but the mere thought they pointed out what may have been a crumb of another player soon before they died probably would have still gotten them. I don't think it was a big problem so I'd forgive Adel and just hope Camn and Incog weren't too upset their stay in both games was so short. None of it was my fault but I still felt sorry for them.

Being a town hydra and scumhunting side by side was uber fun with Tajo while it lasted. Scum thing was pretty fun too since Tajo did point out a few cool things too me via PM and our own QT. I might try to find and or post just our hydra talk later on should someone actually want to see the back and forth between me and tajo. Later all