DHSDSM beta: Game Over.

[PokerFace]

Ok Poker here. Sorry for the low activity all around. I was sick and got behind at work a bit and Tajo has the Flu. I'll do what I can and if things get worse I'll let you know. Gonna try to post when both of us are online in the future.

@Adel&Claus a vote count may be good. Also your policy says you got to post asking it to get others prodded. You may want to allow people to pm you that stuff.

Pointing out possible Vigs helps the scum. Do you actually think RW is an SK?

I'm more just wondering where RWishbone cooked up those numbers. And we all know a vig is in the game, the knowledge he displayed would actually suggest he knows there isn't a vig in the game.

I can't say I understand your turn arround of logic here. There could be atleast 1 vidge or an SK.

If Incamnito was any more town, my eyes would implode.

I know what you're saying about A&B, but for these hydras I do not have yet enough information to get a read, and I'm confident I will be able to get a read eventually.

With the Swine Flu going around... this is definitely a lurker I want to rattle.

vote: Death the Hogfather

*DGB*

If you don't have a read, don't post and or waste your vote.

Random stage over.

Unvote: Trotsky

My main point is I don't think scum would blatantly draw attention to themself in such an obvious way - or rather, I don't think those spam posts were intentionally made to waste posts, when a recharge target is so far off. There is little to no scum motivation behind it.

In fact I'd suggest scum would more likely be the players most wary of this infraction. It's a simple way for them to sit back early and jump on someone for fluff posting, knowing that the town is paranoid of this. And, I think A&B is most guilty of this crime.

Now, addressing your post more specifically; every time you generate suspicion on someone,

you're basing it on the thought that scum are more likely to do x than town.

The way you come to the conclusion I'm scum, is on the basis of this logic. It's simple - I think scum are more likely to avoid fluff posting early on, and take the opposite stance.

It's an easy way to force suspicion on players - they're preying on the paranoia of the town. I don't think scum would be stupid enough to come in and make fluff posts to start the game. Why would they want the early attention when they don't even know how hasty the town is going to be with post wasting? It's a stupid risk to jump in the limelight like that, and it's even stupider to not be aware that fluff posts would put them under pressure.

This is why I think scum would take the stance of jumping on

anything

that could be interpretted as a slight waste.

I don't get this either. Part of the case being expressed on A&B is their posting wasn't really adding much to the game. Saying Scum wouldn't do it because they'd get attacked for being scummy is stupid. Scum are more likly to be scummy. If scum were never scummy, how would we catch them? You sound like you want to attack those that conserve posts and you don't certainly seem to be doing or voting for that. Like you're being a hypocrite. Also

What can you tell me about team ortohoops, pocketface?

Was there a point to this question?

Ftr, I'll be signing my posts.

- Incog.

Not really - more just playful banter before anything substancial develops. Are you going to tell me off for making a post that didn't contain an accusation?

let's save playful banter for other threads or games. I will do my part now if you will too.

[PokerFace]

I can see some of what orto is saying in terms of them agreeing with each other but the idea J-scope is prompting Nyball to post is a bit far-fetched. Deep South Format allows scum to day talk so if j-scope wanted to prompt his buddy to post he'd pm them or use a quick topic outside the game. He wouldn't prompt them in the game thread.

Well they might be asking them to post in order that we draw precisely the conclusion you have "they would have just asked them in their quicktopic". Do you not find the sheer number of instances of adjacent posts between the two out of the ordinary?

Trying to connect players is a strategy that can find scum but it works best when you already know one players alignment. I don't think what SWSWC said about nyball or j-scope was telling. And at the moment we don't know either nyball or j-scope alignment so I don't think there is much to be gleaned. Orto trying to connect them before one flips makes me wonder if Orto already knows one of their alignments and or sees nyballs lynch inevitable.

That's a big stretch. If you didn't notice I am advocating looking for scum-pairings. If we scumhunt individually it makes it way easier for the two scum to build a case against a townie with "behavioural tells" which then gets populous support. If someone has no viable buddies then I'm willing to conclude they're not scum, and anyone arguing otherwise is probably scum themselves.

Clearly according to you (PTA) we haven't mentioned nyb much. That is a point I can't refute. All I know is I'm town and am looking for scum. If I see something as pointing to two people being more likely scum, even if ironically I've apparently committed the same thing myself; I'm still going to point it out. Do you have an actual problem with the methodology/rationale being used- if we interacted with nyb in the same way as J-Scope, does that make us both equally likely to be scum; or is it just a null-tell in both cases? Please clarify your opinion..

<snip>

I find PTA's eagerness to lynch nyb unsettling. They've been harking on about our links to SWSC all game, trying to ensure we're constantly on the back foot but they've never taken it very far beyond voting or stating their readiness to vote us. They've never actually tried to drum up popular support to lynch us, and even now apparently don't suspect us enough to neglect to lynch nyb. I'm concerned PTA has been using us all game as a way of avoiding doing real scum-hunting or committing scum-slips. Nothing else could explain the number of attack posts they've made against us while doing little towards getting us lynched. Also I'm unsettled by J-Scope agreeing with me on nyb (on one point at least):

I was trying to make a few points there.

1. That multiple people had been ignoring nyball through the game. And if you viewed one insistance of ignoring as a town tell or a scum tell the other insistances with other players should be viewed the same.

2. In ignoring them, you have not really stated you thought they were scum or town. All you were really stating was there was some connection between j-scope and nyb. What leads you to believe they are scum, just that they are conected? Have you noticed any individual scummy actions involved with the conection or the players themselves?

There is a difference between saying there is a conection and saying X is scum because of this conection. You didn't seem to really identify them as being scum or being conected to dead scum. I did not think some of your remarks were a valid conection and I did not see how only that conection portrayed them as scum together.

Also I believe I have voted you before in the past and or tried to get others to vote you too with me. Hell spent most of phase 1 doing that. Most other players hadn't really noticed our(Pta's) efforts there so I have continued to consider you as a suspect while looking at the points made by others since there is more than scum about

_________________

What exactly is the logic behind the no lynch at this stage again?

Can we even no lynch with Adel's new rules?

We got 7 alive so is its not exactly mylo or am i miscounting/forgetting something. I am ready to lynch nyball today.

scum day-kill = 6 alive, lynch = 5 alive, scum day-kill tomorrow = 4 alive = end-game. Frankly I'm skeptical of anyone claiming not to be aware of this.

Yay I'm not sure what I was thinking. Looked at my notes for part of that and I must have been more sleepy and or out of it than I realized. For some reason I thought Adel's rules went and lynched the top ranked player and since no lynch isn't technically a player, I for some reason thought that it couldn't be done unless no body had made any votes and i was worried scum would want to sneak in a last second vote there or something and that by lyncing someone entire town thought was scummy was better than risking it. Yay I don't know how I got that idea. I was sleepy but I didn't think I was drunk. We can just vote no lynch and have that be the biggest wagon if that's what we want.

Part of me also wanted to see who was considering the idea and why. Seeing people's additudes there would be a good way to improve my reads on players. And what you said actually makes some sence. I may need to go back and think over my read of you. I can still see some conection between you and SWSWC but this sounds like some actual pro-town logic so I can't understand why you'd bring it up as scum that well.

Tell me what happens if no one dies today via the scum kill? Does that mean anything?

_________________

@Zaphod,

you openly came out saying you didn't want a no lynch earlier while I questioned why and considered an alternative

Also I am not sure I follow why some people are considering no lynching today. Not really sure how its going to benefit us. Unless I figure that out or get an explaination on it I think I'm up for voting/lynching ortohoops or Nyball.

I'm also against a no-lynch.

Since you really weren't agreeing with a directly stated reason against it there I got to ask why you are against it and what points are you trying to make in terms of believing scum aren't trying to make a kill? Is scum not paying attention your only remarks?

_________________

Then why did you even bring up those vibes or other things? You brought them up and then said they carried 'less' weight. By saying less weight you undermine your argument. I think that if you genuinely had other reasons at all you would have expressed them as 'some' weight. That way you would actually be giving a better case and or hunting with better reasoning.

I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make. The only point that I said carried 'less weight' was in reference to ZMD's detachment from the game. By 'less weight' I am (poorly) trying to say that I think it carries less weight

in this game

because of the post-limiting mechanic resulting in the monstrously sized posts. It should be obvious that 'less weight' does not mean 'no weight', so again, I'm not really sure what you're trying to say, here.

The 'less guilty' comment is a completely different thing, and that is my comparison between Raging Wishbone and ZMD's attacks on Frog Dodging. I thought Raging Wishbone was scummier because of it because he was the one who went and found their post of imminent death and selectively quoted it, whereas ZMD claimed to have based his opinion on the selective quoting.

hmm... its seems we have a miscomunication. I thought of what you were saying as one full line of a case where you mentioned an element being weak. You were more so comparing one element with another while presenting them. Still I am not sure how comparing parts of a case like that is suppose to accuratly get your points across so that you and others can find and wagon scum.

In this paragraph you mention the main reason roflcopter was attacked by Zaphod, rofl's lurkage/detachment from the game. Gut is the only reason you mention as your own. How long did it take you to right this paragraph? Not long huh? So i don't see why you couldn't have given something short and to this equivalence back then.

I certainly could have, had I spent the time thinking about what it was I did not like at the time of posting that. But I didn't, and acknowledge that it is anti-town.

Then i'm keeping it in mind

<snip>

Not going deeply into your reasoning on trotsky makes me think you were trying to sneak in a vote in order to get any lynch and not the lynch you seemed to be wanting, especially since you didn't seem to realize the wagons were at the same size.

I can't really argue this beyond citing my low level of devotion to this game, and more recently, Mafia in general.

How many games are you in right now site wide? What modding responsibilities, if any, do you have right now?

_________________

This is exactly the sort of thing I was talking about. Do you see a link between us and Zaphod? What is it? This making lists and not really considering buddying etc. is scummy.

I also feel a lot better about lynching you after your announced top two suspects- me and Zaphod. Zaphod I've felt was town as long as I can remember, and I know I'm town.

Also Frog wants to lynch you and I'm almost positive they're town.

I still think J-Scope - nyb is the scumpair.

Wait.. so one point you have is that you think you are town and him going after you makes him scum? Dude that is pretty much what omgus means without the actually voting of each other. Also you want to vote them just cause FD does, So you are agreeing with them only because you think they are town? You don't have another reason, one of your own?

[PokerFace]

I think Ortolan may have just made the same tell Nuwen made in the alpha game

Pfft.

??

Also to be honest with hoopla, K-scope, springluliby, and all of FD now not posting and me and plum being on very shity access I'm begining to wonder if there is a point to continuing this game.

(and Adel leaving). I think I agree with you.

My heart wants to keep playing as I don't like the idea of abandoning any game especially since it started off with an awesome player list but my head looks at where things are activity wise especially from my at home standpoint and I wonder what should be done or if it could be fixed somehow

and the last 2 pta posts were pokerface in case there actually was somebody that could not tell that

[PokerFace]

Hey guys. I ain't read exactly all of what has been said today. I spend time on mafia games mainly when I am home from work and neighbor just recently turned his wi-fi back on at this time of day. Don't know what he's been doing but I'll hopefully get back up to speed before it goes off. At any rate there are 2 things I want to ask.

@one of those voting for mass claim, why today in a sence of what do you think will be accomplished now as apposed to waiting for later?

@Claus/Saunt Adelaus, what exactly is meant by Strike One in the game title?

I'll try to catch up on today's stuff and state my thoughts on players comments and or questions tomorrow. I'll see what orto said to my last question and see if perhaps nyball will have an answer to my previous question I directed at nyball

[PokerFace]

I have read up on the recent happenings in thread and taken a brief glance at Ojando's pictures. The sentbox one gives me a permission denied screen so theres a problem on somebody's end there. I'll go through and check out the dates for the pics later on. I'll be going to work shortly and don't really have the time.

Mass-claim at this stage is a mistake. The entire reason we no-lynched was to have 1 less player in lylo. Mass-claiming now will probably achieve that, at the expense of losing a power-role. We should mass-claim, but only once a kill goes through or once we agree that no kill will go through.

On reflection I agree with his.

Is what Ojando said exactly what you reflected on or was there something more you considered then? Any reason in particular you went on with the mass claim today if you changed your mind?

When I say "pfft" I mean it as in "pfft, that's a ridiculous reach on your part; drawing a parallel between this instance and Alpha purely because I have openly stated Ojando is scum or the doctor. I actually suspect Ojando is

scum

rather than the doctor, which is why I said it in the first place.

I'm not so sure I buy that. In the post where you suggest ojando is doc or scum you don't say anything else about them. You mostly interact with me there. You just say that one comment/line in that one post about them and that is how it was simular to what nuwen said in the alpha game.

At the moment though I am more interested in this triple doctor afair. nyballs incorrectly labeled his pics as I pointed out and forgot to send one when he said he had been protecting them every phase. Nyball forgot to send during phase 2 and yet remembered the others so I believed there may be some folly there. No player died during phase 3 which means someone was likly saved by a protect sent during phase 2. Since nyball did not send a protect during that phase they cannot be responsible for that save.

I am vanilla townie. I didn't claim earlier because I got zealous over nyballs comments and error also aren't you suppose to wait and see who asks who to claim in popcorn massclaim? I am rather surprised nyball would make the labeling errors and or the forget to send error. I thought this may be evidence enough to point out there was real doc and a fake one amongst just those 2 since only one could have made the first save. As 3 docs have now claimed I guess I may have jumped the gun. I rather doubt the 2 remaining scum would both claim doc and potentially send one of their members to the gallows. It would be dumb for that reason and because scum would know if they had any kills stopped so they could anticipate 1 doctor already in play. So i'm thinking at least one is scum. Nyballs errors combined with what I said of their earlier play is making me very suspicious of them.

I am assuming you sent protects during phase 2 and phase 3.

And why, exactly are you jumping to this conclusion?

Don't you think that if I was scum and spent the time forging all of those images(yes, I think I could do it, but it would not be fun and not guaranteed to look legit) that I would have at least checked to see how many action phases there were to make sure I hadn't missed any?

This comes off like wifom. You could have made a mistake as scum. After all the alternative is that you made a mistake as town. Either way there definatly seems to be something amiss here.

Also you say you could fake it and then say your drive went dead and you don't have the software. Which is it, can you do it now or not?

Also you made the argument earlier that you had not been playing much site wide and been generally lurkish. I asked you how many games you are in and you have not answered. I don't think its a rules violation to mention how many you currently are in. correct me if I am wrong.

@frogdodge, your targets other than yosariwen are?

[PokerFace]

I can see Ojando's inbox picture just fine in 589. Not sure why you can't orto. Their sentbox was only one to give permission denied for me and the one they posted later looks fine. I perfer photobucket over imageshack when I upload things. When first kill got blocked only Ojando could have stopped it so I ain't voting them.

On one hand we got frog dodging who has been townish throughout the game but was rather sketchy with how they claimed and when they gave pics. Shanba said earlier that a doctor should crumb any results they have. Him being doc while suggesting others should crumb is a little odd. You think he wouldn't need to suggest it if he was one himself. That kinda seems contradictorary

@JDodge,

do you know if Shanba did crumb any results anywhere?

On the other hand we got nyball who has been relatively scummy but claimed more apropriatly.

Yes, either mistake is possible. The question is: which one is more likely? You seemed to draw the conclusion that the mistake as scum is the only one that makes any sense. There's nothing in those shots that contradicts a doctor claim.

Also you say you could fake it and then say your drive went dead and you don't have the software. Which is it, can you do it now or not?

By 'could', I am talking about ability, not being in a position to do it.

In truth I wouldn't expect you to make either mistake. If you were scum I wouldn't expect you to forget to fake one and label wrong. If you were town I wouldn't expect you to miss a phase and think you had covered and been active each one.

Frog dodge mentions V/la at the time of there first forget and then shanba mentions he is leaving and jdodge arrives late with the second forget. You, nyball were on RW's wagon that day so I guess I need to see if you were anywhere else on the site back then to asertain how logical j-scopes acusation is there.

When I compare the level of the mistake as town to the mistake as scum the town one comes off as being a bigger mistake because you said you didn't realize you had missed a phase until I pointed it out. Town mistake would mean you have been wrong since the day your forgot to send to the day I pointed it out while scum mistake means you were wrong just when you gave your claim. Its easier to make a little mistake instead of a big one for that long. You have gone on to this point in the game not realizing it and posted your screens labeling them in the order you believed was right in hopes of using the screens to catch scum.

I am going to think about this a little more. See if can reach tajo and see what he thinks. My lunch break needs to be longer at work but I should be around and able to post at deadline and or vote once I'm off work.

Edit while previewing: I ain't read Ojando's most recent post and my break is about to end so I'll catch it later

[PokerFace]

GG orto. Me and yos had you pegged as latvian for the longest time. I will admit there were times we debated you being it in our scum quick topic but 80% of the time the rest of the group saw my logic for why it was you. We were all very worried you were a Mafia Role blocker. That sort of thing could have really hurt us.

BTW to all those that thought I was scum because I was wasting too many posted. That type of acusation did not apply to the Bulgarians. We were all doctors and could not kill. Thus we had no motivation to waste posts. If anything we wanted to game to take a long time so our protects would last longer. Ironically SWSWC death that cleared me also didn't apply to me because there were 2 scum groups. Yes rules said "One group of 3 Mafia" Our group had 3 while yours had 2. Talk about a wierd loop hole. SWSWC death made us go nuts in the QT realizing we had more baddies in the game. I'm down with posting the QT link if everyone else in the group is also down. I won't be posting it until the give their blessings

Latvians either needed one of them to be a RB or one of the 3 town docs needed to be a RB I think to better balance things or at least lower our chances

7 Town (3 docs 2 trackers)
3 Bulgarian docs can't kill because oath of hypocracies
2 Latvian GFs that can kill
2 SKs

[PokerFace]

@Claus,

it probably would be a good idea to change the title hear and or pm the dead players so that they all know its over. May also be time to unlock/necro the alpha game since they are both over and there are some things that probably need posted in both games.

Thanks for picking up where Adel left off Claus. Thanks Adel for a really interesting game and setup.

I was originally mad I was in a scum group that could not kill. I felt like I was a survivor. Those roles are boring and inspire lurkage. Then SWSWC dies and things got incredibly interesting and more fun for me. The Scum QT is very long and we did try to guess other peoples roles. Most of the time we were wrong but we did think FD was a doc when Ojando saw FD call them town for pretty much no reason. I guess the crumb didn't apply despite it being right. Didn't think Yos and incamn would be trackers. Had Yos down as a possible power role but not as tracker. His change from thinking I was scum to thinking I was town was odd. Did he track me somewhere and realize I couldn't kill? RW has to explain why he went after FD after protecting them. I seriously thought they were scum with that claim. I think we may have thought RW was a vig before any SK's showed up for some early kill speculation they did. When SWSWC died and the 2 scum group thing was figured out I proudly said the following in our QT.

I love you Adel and I wish you were still a chick! Ha Ha!

GG and great fun to all

[PokerFace]

BTW to all those that thought I was scum because I was wasting too many posted.

We actually didn't think you were scum at all until the kill on you didn't go through

You actually thought I was town?

Was there ever a time you suspected the entire other group was all docs? I seem to remember you saying something like that at one point so I guess I'm asking how far in advance you thought the other group could not kill

[PokerFace]

I wanna see your qt

Like I said tons of speculation. Only got You as scum and FD as possible doc right.

Thinking RW was a vig was so far off.
Definatly did not think Nyball was a doc. 3-4 town docs did sound crazy
Thinking Yos was scum for my meta read was also so far off
Later thinking they had some power was at least a better thought.
Trying to out guess an Adel setup was alot harder for me and Tajo than ABR's Black Fang setup where I actually did guess them all right down to the character names.

I'll only show the QT if rest of the group thinks its ok. I have absolutly no problem posting it but if they do I would respect their privacy

[PokerFace]

Thanks for picking up the game Claus.

I messed in in Alpha... Spring pulled off an awesome claim in alpha, claiming tracker,

but was really vanilla in Alpha

, and was only a tracker in Beta. Her breadcrumb'ed claim was good enough that I made a mod error, my bad.

You mean incamn was only a tracker here and there were only 2 in alpha? Wow

[PokerFace]

I really felt sorry for incamn. They died so quickly in both games. Not my fault in either but I still felt sorry for them.

I am asuming you meant incamn and not spring since nyball was not a tracker. If you meant something more then feel free to explain your error further adel

[PokerFace]

Wow. The main reason we thought you were latvian scum was because you kept pressuring us. Every player had a reason to unvote and or think we were town when SWSWC flipped. When you didn't change that opinion I thought that you must of still had a reason to suspect us and only reason that would fit that was if you

knew

Latvians were not the only group and there could still be another group PtA was in.

There aparently were alot of suspicions that ended up being correct despite evidence that didn't entirely apply here.

[PokerFace]

- I am glad I was right about PtA,

<<Laughs

You were right for the wrong reasons as Tajo had no kill/motivation to waste posts. That was not a bulgarian scum tell. Only A&B and Hoopla actually had and made that tell. SWSWC, Orto, and trotsky didn't post waste so hoopla was ironically right about most scum avoiding it or not applying to it

[PokerFace]

Without the right evidence, even the most obvious cases fail. If the glove don't fit you must acquit!

I vote to post our QT and so does sando. K-scope never posted there, Death was only there for the time when we speculated on their being alot of vidges since we were all docs. Since that is obv setup dependent I can't see them being mad. Jahudo, Ojanen and Tajo can state their vote in our QT and if it is all unanimous then we will post it

[PokerFace]

btw, did you all actually submit your protections for Day 8?

Yes we all made sure to do that. I said that lie after my vote about ojando's action to throw you off had there been an RB in play with the power to stop us. There was suspicion Zaphod's quick vote could have been made to draw us out so I said that just in case she was scum. Like I said there was 20% of the time we consider it not being Orto and that was part of that 20%. We practically never thought ZMD or Nyball was the last latvian. We just went along with lynching both of them because we were scum and so a free lynch is not something we would refuse.

I think I might have brought up during Alpha the possibility of a whole team of mafia doctors in our hydra quicktopic (but I had to edit it out when we posted screenshots in Alpha cause it incriminated us in Beta)

You actually thought I was town?

I think initially we thought attacking you for your posting was convenient and meant we didn't need to do much else. When Yos died and flipped town and had pretty much been agreeing with you that made me think there was a strong likelihood you were town also.

I think we realised something dodgy was going on around the third action phase. At the lack of kills from another mafia faction forced me to clarify Adel that there actually was another scum faction in the game and the wording of the rules was correct. Before that we just assumed the other mafia wasn't submitting kills, or else that they were responsible e.g. for the death of SWSWC. Seeing as two SKs died but in the entire game there was only one scum-kill that didn't come from us I think we assumed that some killing factions just weren't submitting kills.

Yes I seem to recall Hoopla stating in your posted alpha QT that she thought there might be 2 scum groups but she didn't say any of that jazz. That comment and the mal order of that QT combined with what we knew of the beta game did effect some of my opinion of you being scum here but none of that was discussed in QT or thread especially when alpha was running as that would have been against the rules. Only after alpha ended was something like that I think said in our QT.

[PokerFace]

- I am glad I was right about PtA,

<<Laughs

You were right for the wrong reasons as Tajo had no kill/motivation to waste posts. That was not a bulgarian scum tell. Only A&B and Hoopla actually had and made that tell. SWSWC, Orto, and trotsky didn't post waste so hoopla was ironically right about most scum avoiding it or not applying to it

The issues are:

1. You

do

have motivation to waste posts as that allows more people to die

We wanted our protections to last longer more than anything. If the QT is posted that will be shown during the time we had no knowledge of an SK or another scum group which was the only times a case on us was pursued by many.

2. It wasn't just that you were wasting posts, it's that the posts you were making that were trying to be gameplaying were awful

This is valid just like the DNA evidence on OJ but with other evidence like the glove falling flat you must acquit! (I make the OJ jokes because RW said I could defend OJ and if you used the abreviation OJ to stand for OJando then wel...)

[PokerFace]

We wanted our protections to last longer more than anything. If the QT is posted that will be shown during the time we had no knowledge of an SK or another scum group which was the only times a case on us was pursued by many.

Thus we were niot trying to wastes posts and did not have the motivation as we did not know A&B was an SK that there was a second SK or another scum group that could actually kill until SWSWC or incamn. And any good lawyer would say without motive you don't have a case.

[PokerFace]

I respectful disagree with that philosophy. Letting things get to a point where a picture becomes more important than overall play where you can allow bad grammar to cause a lynch is wrong. If you are going to play mafia then play mafia. Don't play who can photoshop the best.

[PokerFace]

What did you guys think of using hydra?

It was really fun in alpha. Me and Tajo were both town so it was fun to scumhunt together. Too bad SWSWC and a bit of a plague cut that short. I really was sick as a dog during part of that game and so was tajo ironically. It was ok in Beta. I like both alignments equally but Tajo doesn't seem to like being scum as much as he likes being town. I respect his help and play none the less since he did help me with quite a few things. Being a hydra was an interesting almost masonic experience. Many thanks adel and claus

The phase sequencing in beta clearly failed, but was alpha ok? How could alpha have been more optimal in timing?

Yes Beta Failed. Alpha was pretty close to right. Maybe slowing a little would have been better with activity concerns but all and all it worked pretty well

How did you like the setup design?

2 Giant thumbs up!

I knew that alpha would end first, so I decided to go bastard in beta.

You didn't disobey any rules so I'm not sure I'd call it bastard but it definatly was unorthodox and unexpected so big props to you keeping it interesting

The key that opened up the role design of beta for me was figuring out that if the setup is equally unfair for all players, then the setup is also balanced. In beta there were 2 sks, a scumgroup of 2, a scum group of 3, and a town of 7. That is five factions. Each faction was assigned a base of 20% chance of winning, and that % chance of winning was increased proportionally by how many players it had than one, and the & chance assigned to the thwo groups of sk's was turned down an equal amount. I figured that each sk should have ~ a 12% chance of winning, the Latvian mafia should have a 22% chance, the Bulgarian mafia should have a 22% chance, and the town should have a 28% chance. Those numbers are estimates from what I can recall. I thought that a tracker could really bust up the Latvian mafia, and that the SKs would stand a good chance of lurking through the early game. I really didn't expect the number of doctor roles to result in a lurkerfest. I would like to see another smallish 5 faction game using a time mechanic more similar to alpha.

Doctors did not cause the lurking. The posting requirements deadline did that. I was really expecting a latvian RB to show up. I kinda expected there to be one instead of those town docs. Trackers did hurt both SKs and Latvian mob. Had one bulgarian doc gotten tracked his protections would have led to his buddies so trackers were very powerful. I would have given town one more tracker and subtract 2 docs from their side. I would have then made one of the latvians a RB and possibly taken away the GF thing from them. All and all though your idea was good and unpredictable to say the least so I was definatly glad to play in your game for a ton of reasons. GG all. Thanks Adel and Claus

[PokerFace]

I didn't like screenshots either, they just added extra effort if you were scum (ironically they didn't help town one bit in either game either LOL!)

QFT

If anything they were the reason RW didn't vote j-scope in Alpha and the reason why players finally saw FD as scummy in Beta.

Screenshots hurt the town and took games that were mafia and turned them into something else