Mini 829 - Internal Struggle Mafia (Over)

[DeathRowKitty]

I've only made one post that even remotely resembles calling Zach scummy (I voted him for putting a third random vote on you). I've had no problem with his posts since then and I don't see how pointing out what I perceived to be a typo would do anything to make Zach look bad. If I have a problem with someone, I have no problem voicing my suspicions or voting.

I even mentioned in my previous post I thought Zach was away until the 14th and Paradox cleared it up for me in his next post.

you say you didn't read his posts that clearly... well to quote it, you would have had to delete what he had said below to only partially quote him, so you would have seen it I am willing to bet.

No, I didn't have to delete anything. I skimmed his posts for where he'd said when he was going to be away. I saw that sentence and copied and pasted it. The rest was a separate paragraph. Do you copy and paste entire posts and subsequently delete everything except one sentence?

There wasn't even a wagon there to begin with. There was a single vote. I even questioned that vote because I didn't think Zach was back so soon.

Earlier, you FoSed me over very little using Paradox's reasoning. Now, you voted me off very little when you've already said you're careful with your vote. Why should I believe you're not trying to:
A) draw attention away from IK
B) discredit my suspicion of you

[DTMaster]

@Jason

1. If you are referring to the thought wagon against Zach then that 1 post is a pretty poor way to attack Kitty. If you read

his

Iso 41 it was a basic summary of all his thoughts on the lurkers. Kitty saw Jack as a neutral person (with real life commitments) based on this post.

2. You said: "This bothers me.. though I did mention originally about Zach not posting much, I was aware he was V L/A and was going on what he had already posted before hand and his activity in post... Kitty deliberately left a big part out of Zachs very same post he quotedto make it look bad I feel "

Have you looked at Zach's posts in iso?

His dates starting on Iso 3 are (with a total of 11 whole posts.):

3,4,5,6,6,8,10,14,14.

Zach was up to date (posting small paragraphs up till the 6th) then he fell behind on the scumhunting. He admit he got lazy in his iso 10 and in comparison to the active half of town, Zach got drowned out by the hyper activity. So how doesn't it look like Zach vanished from the scene.

This is a weak line of attacking, especially if you sift through that wall duel, that DRK is setting up a secondary case on Zach. With his list in iso 54, he would be going after you or hiphop over Zach. I'm going to need more proof then that if you want to boost your argument.

[ryan2754]

In all the games I have played, I have found RC to be the most unreadable player I have ever played with. I have played 3 games with him, and have yet to have a reasonable idea on his alignment. One minute I think he is scummy, the next I don't. Suffice to say, I see nothing out of the ordinary with regards to his play.

...
@RC
Actually you pointed a potential OMGUS FOS on ryan with 177 right there.

Umm, no, it's not FOS. Re-read the post, and you will see it's not OMGUS.

If he said I and idk were doing it, than those three were definitely doing it more.

Definitely see what you are saying.

I also gave a reason for voting toro, which I didn’t have time to do that night.

Ok, sure, but that is still suspicious in my mind. Anytime someone makes a post with a vote without an explanation, it is suspicious and is perceived as either withholding information from the town or voting with cause. It seems it would be easier if people would just witheld their vote until they had the time to explain it.

Yay Bandwagon is me [...] But I am officailly the bandwagon in the RVS of the game lol

Does Jason seem

too

happy to be bandwagoned to anyone else? More to the point, does anyone else think Jason could be trying to seem happy about it so as not to draw any suspicion?

I can see what you are saying. Humor is often used by scum in early rounds to hide their alignment.

Yay Bandwagon is me [...] But I am officailly the bandwagon in the RVS of the game lol

Does Jason seem

too

happy to be bandwagoned to anyone else? More to the point, does anyone else think Jason could be trying to seem happy about it so as not to draw any suspicion?

I can see what you are saying. Humor is often used by scum in early rounds to hide their alignment.

DRK brings up some decent points against IK. However, his opinions on IK/RC situation seems like buddying with RC. I do tend to agree with DRK (as opposed to IK) that 3 votes/L-4 on page 3 is not that big of a deal and seems like IK is trying to appear too cautious.

DRK/IK's argument/extensive posts were getting a bit annoying, especially after they started talking about game theory.

Ryan, to put it simply the main reason I suspect IK more than Hiphop is that Hiphop has been trying to get things done and IK hasn't. Maybe he is fearful scum struggling, but to me it looks more like someone who wants something more out of a game than defend himself the whole time. Im much more suspicious of a player who jumps into their shell when poked, verses hiphop who continued to apply pressure and seek new leads.

The main reason I found your argument suspicious is how you deal with hiphops response. You call it BS and bogus that Hiphop says he can't defend against your arguments. Doesn't that imply that you know your arguments to be flawed or deserving of opposition?

Paragraph 1: See, the thing is, this is how I saw it. Hiphop gets accused, bypasses it, and continues on with his assessment of the game. IK gets accused, defends himself, while then later getting back into the scumhunting, although he may be tunneling on RC.

Paragraph 2: No, it's not implying my arguments are flawed. This game is about attack and defense, and conceding to not defend yourself is a defeat, which seems pointless as both scum and town, and is anti=town, as then we have no measure to gauge his response.

I really like DRK's 223, the last few paragraphs with IK's insistence on RC's alignment and unwillingness to change his opinion.



More opportunistic voting by hiphop. The same argument could be used against DRK about the quote war, but hiphop jumps on IK.

The whole DRK/RC thing could be a few things:
1.) DRK scum, backing town RC for when RC dies, gets town points
2.) DRK town, backing town RC from scum IK
3.) DRK scum, defending scum RC

I as well would like to see this better represented case by RC on IK.

I will say this little argument has gotten us tunnelled hard. Seems Toro has left the spotlight as well as some others. Hiphop chimes in and makes himself look even more scummy.

@Hiphop: Definitely don't like your vote on hiphop for a subpar reason.

Can someone reverberate the cases for Toro and Jason and why they are scummy?

Jason for fencesitting on Hiphop and Toro for?

Personally, right now, I think IK and RC are both slightly scummy, but not worth a lynch. As much as people think hiphop is VI, he gives off scumtells like a car gives exhaust.

I don't like DRK's 315 discussing lynch candidates further down the line, trying to order the days etc.

Reading through page 13 or so I am seeing a trend with hiphops posts: He often tends to give little information when people ask him questions, and the rest of his post is dedicating strictly to asking questions of other players. It is a VERY subtle form of IIoA.

Don't like DRK's 338 either.

Jason seems to be grasping for straws recently. Seems like he is trying to scumhunt anyway, albeit with very bad reasoning, and DRK tears it apart.

Is toro getting a replacement?
Right now, I think my vote should stay where it is. Hiphop seems definitely opportunistic on IK for game theory, then later says it was combined with gut. At this point in the game, a gut vote is stupid, and using it as the main logic for your vote (with the addition of game theory) is suspect.

Confirm Vote: Hiphop

[DeathRowKitty]

Don't like DRK's 338 either.

I didn't make post 338.

Can someone reverberate the cases for Toro and Jason and why they are scummy?

Well, I don't remember the case for Toro that well (and wasn't a big fan of it), but I can give the case against Jason. Jason looked like he was trying to revive the dying wagon on hiphop without ever committing to it (and carried on with this for a few posts, in fact a significant fraction of his posts at the time). We then had the 100% certainty fiasco (null tell if that's part of his meta, but he doesn't have any completed games yet). Now, he seems desparate and is grasping at very thin straws, as if he's trying to shift the focus, put some doubt under my initial suspicion of him, or appear to be doing something productive. Plus, he had the odd comments about being bandwagoned early in the game.

Something else I just noticed:

IK was my RVS vote was he not? and 100% in my mind i feel he is scum... there is no way I Can know 100%

Backtracking?

I think that sums up the case on Jason.

[DTMaster]

@Ryan

1. Did you know this was in response to the list you made at that time:

Suspicions
High: Hiphop
Growing to High: Jason
Medium: Toro, IK

You FoS: Paradox, but "your scum/suspicious list" reflects the current town feeling at that time. You gave a detailed reason against Paradox but a lot of it clarified your case on how scummy hiphop is.

I don't under stand the transition between your FoS, your list and your counter-post to Paradox to explain why hiphop is scummier then IK. You don't elaborate on why Paradox deserves the FoS in your 177.

It looks like you are scum keeping the bandwagon opening, OMGUSing against the person who raised some flags against you, and didn't follow through that FoS in that list. A potential scum slip? I view it as so when RC pointed it out and your current statement about that FoS.

You also lied that "you didn't FoS" in 177. See below:

Umm, no, it's not FOS. Re-read the post, and you will see it's not OMGUS.

7.) Majority? There was one other vote on hiphop at the time. The bandwagon had fallen apart. There was no majority when I VOTED.

FOS: paradox

Unvote

Vote Ryan 177

[DTMaster]

EBWOP: Lol 177 is on my brains.

Vote:Ryan2754

[Paradoxombie]

The main reason I found your argument suspicious is how you deal with hiphops response. You call it BS and bogus that Hiphop says he can't defend against your arguments. Doesn't that imply that you know your arguments to be flawed or deserving of opposition?

Paragraph 2: No, it's not implying my arguments are flawed. This game is about attack and defense, and conceding to not defend yourself is a defeat, which seems pointless as both scum and town, and is anti=town, as then we have no measure to gauge his response.

It'd be alright if you were just saying he may be avoiding a response or that his actions were suspicious without an explanation, but you seem to be framing it very differently. What I see you saying here that he is obliged as a town player to defend himself to the best of his abilities. That sounds more like an attorney than a townie.

Your argument against hiphop was just stating his actions and saying they're scummy. What were you expecting in response? A theory discussion with a new player? Did you want him to endlessly defend his mistakes or something?

[DTMaster]

@Ryan

Um we don't have any confirmed alignment. How did you do that list?

For all we know it could be Town DRK defending Town RC from tunneling Town IK. (Which is my current interpretation right now unless new evidence comes up)

I think it's premature to look at alignments like that without concrete evidence. It is much more revealing to do action and gauging reaction then question the setup right now. You assume too much when at least 1 of them has to be scum (and the whole team could be the other townies)

Also
Elaborate on: "@Hiphop: Definitely don't like your vote on hiphop for a subpar reason "

Hiphop didn't self vote so what is the corrected version of this line?

Toro just posted a "I'm rereading post so broke free from the prod". The general case against Toro is: he is not contributing to scum hunting, he admits he is going with the flow and he might be stressing the newbie card too much (the last argument is from my own personal notes).

What are your thoughts on the Toro case (once you reread it since you asked for my view point which "might be a little biased" I recommend reading his stuff on your own to make your own opinion to avoid that issue)

BTW you disliked my 338. Elaborate? Or was it DRK's post? Clarify please.

[hiphop]

@ryan I don't think gut votes are stupid at all. You can't prove anyone is scum on day one, no exceptions. What is your vote based on? My posts? Nobody here can say that the person they are voting for on day one is guaranteed scum. I see no proof at all; in fact, the odds of someone saying someone is scum and that person being scum is very slim. They have a better chance of saying someone is town.

You are saying that my posts are showing scum tells. That is only a matter of opinion, so basically your vote is based on gut. If this is so, I don’t know how you can say your vote isn’t stupid, since you said gut votes are stupid. Your opinion is your own. If you are stubborn, I can’t change that.

[Zachrulez]

Gut vote is basically a cute way of saying that your vote doesn't have any real strong reasoning.

You can play by gut all your want, but if you can't justify your vote, it don't have any credibility.

And your vote on IK did look pretty opportunistic, considering the situation you were in before a bandwagon built up on him. So now you call the vote gut when people wonder about the timing of the vote?

[Idiotking]

Ok, two things:

1. I want to know the town's opinion on whether or not I should request replacement due to the difficulties surrounding my lack of time. I don't want to slow the game down because of lurking, but I also don't want the poor bastard who would replace me to be saddled with my martyrdom (which I'm still fully ok with doing, btw).

2. Regardless of the town's opinions, I'm going to do a massive reread. I've decided to run with the idea that ok, maybe I'm tunneling RC a little (still think he's scum) but I'm not going anywhere with this. I need other suspects.

Currently the two likeliest suspects other than RC and DRK are Hiphop and Toro, in that order. I want to reread to confirm this, and once I do so, I intend to build cases for both of them. Unless, of course, somebody else pops up that I find scummy.

[DTMaster]

@Ik

Ask yourself: How bad is your real life commitments vs this mafia game? Then the answer will come.

[Toro]

@Ryan

Um we don't have any confirmed alignment. How did you do that list?

For all we know it could be Town DRK defending Town RC from tunneling Town IK. (Which is my current interpretation right now unless new evidence comes up)

I think it's premature to look at alignments like that without concrete evidence. It is much more revealing to do action and gauging reaction then question the setup right now. You assume too much when at least 1 of them has to be scum (and the whole team could be the other townies)

Also
Elaborate on: "@Hiphop: Definitely don't like your vote on hiphop for a subpar reason "

Hiphop didn't self vote so what is the corrected version of this line?

Toro just posted a "I'm rereading post so broke free from the prod". The general case against Toro is: he is not contributing to scum hunting, he admits he is going with the flow and he might be stressing the newbie card too much (the last argument is from my own personal notes).

What are your thoughts on the Toro case (once you reread it since you asked for my view point which "might be a little biased" I recommend reading his stuff on your own to make your own opinion to avoid that issue)

BTW you disliked my 338. Elaborate? Or was it DRK's post? Clarify please.

Where did I say I was playing the newbie card? Or where is there any evidence that I'm new to mafia?

[RedCoyote]

Why did you put ryan closer to scum? The only thing I can get on him, is his relations to idk. He asks both idk, and me to defend ourselves, than he focuses directly on me(which he had a good reason for), but he doesn’t attack idk, after that. Almost like if idk is scum, he could say I suspected him from the beginning. This is all WIFOM. So, what is your opinion on him?

I feel that you've become almost a scapegoat for players to look as though they're participating in the game. I think, in both the cases of ryan and Zach, they can just say, "don't forget about hiphop!", and they are seemingly back into the game with a fresh perspective. See posts 358, 377, 177, and 155.

---

It shouldn't be immediately assumed as defending, I mean to say.

I'm glad you said this. I know it would make the situation worse if I said it, but this is generally how I feel. Y'all can (and probably should) take it with a pinch of salt, but the defending thing just doesn't sound like a very strong accusation to me.

Though, I can't see why he'd martyr himself the way he seems to be doing. It won't make his points about RC any stronger in the end.

Agreed. It doesn't necessarily make me think more or less of him; I see his willingness to be lynched as a null tell.

---

Zach did state he would not be posting much and Kitty has left that big part out. Maybe in an attempt to discredit Zach even further and justify his jump on the wagon.

unvote
vote:Kitty

Now what we have to figure out is if this is scumjason trying to act as though his head is in this game, or if it's townjason who feels genuinely bad that he can't can't seem to take anything from the recent comments.

I've been more and more inclined to give jason sympathy, because I get the feeling as though he's a trying too hard to look for connections that may or may not be there.

---

In all the games I have played, I have found RC to be the most unreadable player I have ever played with. I have played 3 games with him, and have yet to have a reasonable idea on his alignment. One minute I think he is scummy, the next I don't. Suffice to say, I see nothing out of the ordinary with regards to his play.

*blushes* I take it as a compliment.

Reading through page 13 or so I am seeing a trend with hiphops posts: He often tends to give little information when people ask him questions, and the rest of his post is dedicating strictly to asking questions of other players. It is a VERY subtle form of IIoA.

I don't think I agree with this. No one tends to follow up with hiphop much.

Confirm Vote: Hiphop

I don't like the idea that you are "confirming" your vote on a player with only one other vote aside from your own. You haven't heard hiphop's claim, and this seems more like you are trying to drum up the wagon with showmanship than you are with logical accusations and evidence.

This will only come back to hurt you later on in the game should this town decide not to lynch hiphop today.

---

I don't under stand the transition between your FoS, your list and your counter-post to Paradox to explain why hiphop is scummier then IK. You don't elaborate on why Paradox deserves the FoS in your 177.

It looks like you are scum keeping the bandwagon opening, OMGUSing against the person who raised some flags against you, and didn't follow through that FoS in that list. A potential scum slip? I view it as so when RC pointed it out and your current statement about that FoS.

I'm glad you brought this back up because I knew there was a reason ryan had got me to scratch my chin earlier but I had forgotten what it was.

---

Potential contradiction?

I

was

going with the flow.

Going with the flow is generally considered suboptimal play, and even scummy by some.

You are expected to think for yourself, and give your own insight in reaction to the events of the game.

A go with the flow attitude, if present in enough players, promotes quick lynching with minimal thought, and as the saying goes short days hurt the town.

Your play style is potentially very dangerous to the town.

You need to learn as you go and develop your play style into something that is more than just going with the flow.

(emphasis added).

I wasn't overly impressed with the bandwagon on Toro or the reasoning for it.

Here's something I found that may be of interest. Did Zach or anyone else want to comment on this? It seemed like Zach thought the reasoning was valid at the time (that Toro was just piggybacking on other player's thoughts and "going with the flow"), but here he said that he wasn't impressed with it. I looked to see if Zach made another post or something that implied that Toro impressed him with his response, but I couldn't find anything.

Anyways, since Ik brought it up, I want to make it clear that my vote, unlike ryan's, is by no means confirmed in any way.

Mod

, when you get back, could you please prod don?

[Zachrulez]

Potential contradiction?

I

was

going with the flow.

Going with the flow is generally considered suboptimal play, and even scummy by some.

You are expected to think for yourself, and give your own insight in reaction to the events of the game.

A go with the flow attitude, if present in enough players, promotes quick lynching with minimal thought, and as the saying goes short days hurt the town.

Your play style is potentially very dangerous to the town.

You need to learn as you go and develop your play style into something that is more than just going with the flow.

(emphasis added).

I wasn't overly impressed with the bandwagon on Toro or the reasoning for it.

Here's something I found that may be of interest. Did Zach or anyone else want to comment on this? It seemed like Zach thought the reasoning was valid at the time (that Toro was just piggybacking on other player's thoughts and "going with the flow"), but here he said that he wasn't impressed with it. I looked to see if Zach made another post or something that implied that Toro impressed him with his response, but I couldn't find anything.

I have seen this kind of play before sadly. It is generally seen in newbies who do not participate enough in the early game, and the player who behaves like this is often an early lynch target.

I understand why people find it suspicious, but I have seen it before, and from my experience tend to find it consistent with newbie behavior rather than any kind of definitive scumtell.

It's still anti-town and needs to be corrected, I'm just not convinced that lynching these kind of problematic players is the best play when there's potential for them to learn better play through more experience.

Does that make my position any clearer for you?

[DTMaster]

@Toro

Here is how you are playing the newbie card:

1. Your join date is July 15 2009. You are fairly new at this fourm (likewise me)

2. (Link to help the town sift)

I point out you are going with the flow in 152.
You point out said you were in 161.
Zach coaches you in 162.
You said you are still developing your style in 163.

This reads as developing newbie (which I'm letting it slide for now but might become an issue in the future). You aren't explicitly playing that card but it's hinted in this exchange.

@RC
I like it since it's good advice. My first newbie game finished an a person got lynched in the second day for fence sitting, going with the town flow, and overplaying the newbie card. (I can meta it now since it's complete. Look at Maij in this game and the case that Exalt pushed on her. )

So whether or not it's scum coaching, or town coaching I still see it as good advice. That exchange is a null-tell to me to establish a link between the two players.

[hiphop]

@Zach perhaps you should look at post 354.

@RC I have become a scrapegoat, not almost. There is nothing I can do or say that will get me out of that situation. People are going to suspect me until I die or a cop gets an innocent on me.

@idk So far, who can say you are lurking?

Current post count:
IDK:65
DRK:60
Hiphop:50
DTMaster:45
Paradoxombie:31
Toro:28
Alexhans:27
Jason:21
Rc:15
Zach:14
Don/Dank:13
Shrine:12
Ryan:10

You have more posts than anyone.

[Idiotking]

@Ik

Ask yourself: How bad is your real life commitments vs this mafia game? Then the answer will come.

It's college. But I think the worst trouble will only last a week or two, which is why I don't want to give up on this game quite yet. I want to see what the town thinks about this, though, because there's no point in me slowing things down (look at this even, once I stop talking suddenly the discussion about my case/RC's case against me drops dramatically, this can't be a good thing).

You have more posts than anyone.

Means absolutely nothing if I stop posting

now

. Everyone will catch up and I'll be lurking. High activity at one point doesn't forgive low activity in another, regardless of the circumstances; that's why I want to know about whether the town thinks I need to be replaced.

[Toro]

@Toro

Here is how you are playing the newbie card:

1. Your join date is July 15 2009. You are fairly new at this fourm (likewise me)

2. (Link to help the town sift)

I point out you are going with the flow in 152.
You point out said you were in 161.
Zach coaches you in 162.
You said you are still developing your style in 163.

This reads as developing newbie (which I'm letting it slide for now but might become an issue in the future). You aren't explicitly playing that card but it's hinted in this exchange.

@RC
I like it since it's good advice. My first newbie game finished an a person got lynched in the second day for fence sitting, going with the town flow, and overplaying the newbie card. (I can meta it now since it's complete. Look at Maij in this game and the case that Exalt pushed on her. )

So whether or not it's scum coaching, or town coaching I still see it as good advice. That exchange is a null-tell to me to establish a link between the two players.

Well, for the record, I'd like to go on saying that I'm in fact not a newb.

[alexhans]

I'm back! It was a nice break.

Deadline is set for Tuesday 25th at 1000 hs (GMT - 3)

-------------------------------

Those in danger of suppression #15:

DeathRowKitty (1)

-

jasonT1981

hiphop (2)

-

Zachrulez, ryan2754

Idiotking (2)

-

RedCoyote, hiphop

jasonT1981 (1)

-

DeathRowKitty

RedCoyote (1)

-

Idiotking

ryan2754 (1)

-

DTMaster

toro

(2)[/b] -

Paradoxombie, Shrinehme

Not Voting (2)

-

Toro, don_johnson

Happiness with Posting Level:

UNIMPORTANT

Deadline:

Tuesday 25th - 1000 hs (GMT - 3)

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

[alexhans]

Mod

, when you get back, could you please prod don?

He is V/LA until tomorrow but I'll pm him anyway reminding him to post ASAP.

[Zachrulez]

@Zach perhaps you should look at post 354.

354 does not impress me.

Your vote is based off of gut, the reasoning of others and no reasoning of your own.

[jasonT1981]

Well, for the record, I'd like to go on saying that I'm in fact not a newb.

This really has no bearing... you are a noob to Mafia scum.. I have played mafia for well over a year now on various other sites and this is completely different... so yes, in a way you are still a Noob to Mafia scum.

The way I play here, has been the way I played on other sites and I have found it has brought me alot of trouble here putting me on the radar big time for apparently being scum or at least scummy.. in most if not every game I have played here so far I have been close to being a day one lynch, or at least heavily considered.

[Toro]

Well, for the record, I'd like to go on saying that I'm in fact not a newb.

This really has no bearing... you are a noob to Mafia scum.. I have played mafia for well over a year now on various other sites and this is completely different... so yes, in a way you are still a Noob to Mafia scum.

The way I play here, has been the way I played on other sites and I have found it has brought me alot of trouble here putting me on the radar big time for apparently being scum or at least scummy.. in most if not every game I have played here so far I have been close to being a day one lynch, or at least heavily considered.

Okay, gotcha. So then I am a noob.

354 does not impress me.

Your vote is based off of gut, the reasoning of others and no reasoning of your own.

I think this is just hiphop being hiphop, I don't think him having a vote based on gut is enough to merit a vote from me.

[DTMaster]

@Toro
Ok. But it makes no sense from that exchange, your game record in your sig, and the join date. If you aren't new at mafia, then you are playing very suspiciously.

By now you

should know that going with the flow is very bad for town game play

if you weren't a newb. It tacks on the bandwagoning case against you, and failing to provide new input for scum hunting.

------
EDIT: After reading the most recent post.

Wait you admit it now after Jason pointed it out? Why the change?

(Also a newb and a noob have diffrent meanings. The former being the more positive one by the way. So if you are implying something from your 398...)