California Trilogy: City of Angels - Off Stage (Game Over)

[sottyrulez]

Confirm

[sottyrulez]

I'm still trying to get a grip on these game mechanics. Everyone should go read the rules though, like, 4 times, or something.

It sounds like...we'll be lynching off stage, and making decisions on stage. I would assume that people off-stage can't lynch people on-stage at the time. It also sounds the people on stage can't see the thread for the people off stage. The endgame section of the rules is really interesting; it seems like in the endgame, it'll come down to 2 scum and 5 innocents, and in the endgame either the town or the scum will have an advantage based on how many "right" or "wrong" choices we've made in the "on stage" phases. I think. I'm really still kind of fuzzy on how it all works, and honestly I'm a bit surprised no one else is discussing this.

This was my rough understanding of the game. I'm thinking/hoping it becomes a lot clearer once the on camera thread opens up and we get rolling on there too. I'm guessing we're just waiting for more confirms before that happens.

As far as the Zwet deal goes, it just came across as the usual start of game shenanigans. Talk of a lynch seems premature.

-Sotty.

[sottyrulez]

well that was a read and a fucking half.

I am glad to see that the off stage crew saw that the decision was an obvious one. On stage it felt like an up hill battle. I actually felt like they were going to make me drive just to lynch me "Day 2"

Big FOS on Starkiss and mafia Jin...and to some extent sottyrulz

What post/s give you the impression that we had any desire to see you drive? (We refers to myself and sotty.) What exactly makes you suspicious of us?

the "mafia" name is Screen Mafia Guild (SMG). If I would have driven, I would have become a member of their crew...if Valentine drove I would remain innocent.

I also think it is a possibility that Panzer was given the same option I was. But who knows....at any rate, valetine was the right choice.

I would have to disagree with the idea of Panzer being given the same choice as you. Why would Panzer flip from innocent to not-innocent in a choice outcome that was good for the innocent side? It doesn't make sense to me.

[sottyrulez]

Okay, finally caught up

@CKD: Initially I was surprised that both advocates where agreeing right off the bat. I wasn't expecting you to come out and tell us not to let you drive. It threw me off a little and I wanted as much information as possible. But with both you and Panzer agreeing on the choice our role seemed to be more about slowing everyone else down. For some reason the others wanted to vote quickly (starkiss, TBKM and Hewitt) which I find pretty damn scummy considering we all knew that once we ended the scene the “day” in effect would be over.

I can understand the frustration though and the scene just felt like it was repeating itself over and over in an effort to extend the day. Seeing that the choice was already effectively made, we as a group didn't really have anything real to discuss.

I think that Gaspar, Hewitt, starkiss and tally stay off screen.

I agree with this list and would add TBTKM to those to be kept off stage as well.

With how the hammer came about on screen, I am in the camp that scum can very likely day talk. KY Krew came into the thread and spouted nothing helpful before bring a very abrupt end to the day. I just can't see how this doesn't relate to Gasper as DGB rightfully said, the tide did appear to be turning.

The whole Talilan/Gasper and to some extent Thok quote war is hard to keep tabs on, but with that going on the lynch of Zwet is just odd. It was like everyone just settled for him because he was Zwet.

Either way, KY Krew needs to get in here like yesterday and explain their motivations behind all that.

-Sotty.

[sottyrulez]

I am the only part of our hydra that is fully caught up on the thread. Zach is only about half way though his read and with the holiday weekend slowing that process down even more, I think we should be kept off camera so that we can catch 100% up.

I also think, if possible, we should keep all the players who were on screen last time round, off screen this time. Mostly so we can get everyone giving their input to a lynch and getting their suspicions down in thread. Going on camera holds it's own challenges with the roleplaying and extending the day, but I think it is a haven for scum seeing as they have no real responsibility for who is the lynch. We need to make everyone accountable.

Hewitt. In you explanation of your ISO, you expressed annoyance that people were slowing the game down and not wanting votes quick. I have to ask why you wanted to vote when we all knew that if we ended the scene early then that ends the day.

I like most of Mafiajin's 633 really. My only issue is the claim of meta reads on the players they picked to go on stage with them. I have never played with SSK and to the best of my knowledge, I am in one on going game with Sajin where neither of us have flipped. I will have to confer with my other head, but I don't think he has played with either player. So this point sticks out like a sore thumb to me.

People have been asking for scum lists, here is mine so far. I expect some players will change once both heads have read the whole thread.

Likely town

Curiouskarmadog: Convincing the town not to chose him is a good start. Also his paranoia surrounding our hydra's intentions after the scene was over felt very town to me.

ShadowLurker: Early vote for KY Krew screams town to me, conisdering he had a bunch of other lurkers he could have pushed.

Rawr Hydra (OhGodMyLife/Korejora): Have been agreeing with Kore a lot. Was the first and only (?) player to speculate that the on screen drama was mostly down to roleplaying, which really makes a lot of sense.

Leaning town

Bagel Eating Cowfrog: Found myself agreeing with most of what they have been posting expect the Zwet vote. Didn't appear to have meta with Zwet, so I can at least understand the suspicions. Zwet didn't help himself yesterday.

GoofballsAndBaloons (DrippingGoofball/BridgesAndBaloons): Agree with their pressure on Gasper and other inactive/lurky type players. Gut says town

Mighty Orbots (Papa Zito/Zorblag): Being clear with their intentions as far as their job goes. Gives me good feelings. However as of right now I am having a hard time remembering any thing they said game wise. Will review.

Neutral

Gaspar/elmosaurian/Talilan/Thok/: Maybe a bit of a cop out listing these as neutral but I am having a tough time establishing a read after their back and forth and quote wars. Will review ASAP.

MafiaJin (MafiaSSK/Sajin): Like I said, 633 was good but I am unsure about the meta excuse.

Panzerjager: Extremely vague on camera, needs to post a scum list.

Thesp, Starkiss: Hopefully catches up soon.

Leaning scum

MrJellyLee (MrBuddyLee/petroleumjelly): Hasn't really left a big impression on me after being suspicious of both advocates at the start. Leaning a little more neutral really, gut tells me to list them here though.

Hewitt: Not liking his on camera play as far as the voting goes. Needs to explain.

ThebladethatkilledMufasa (Mufasa/12Keyblade): Seems to be actively avoiding the thread.

Probably scum

KY Krew (inHimshallibe/rajrhcpfreak): Switching in the On camera thread, quick hammering and not bother to explain. Needs to be lynched.

-Sotty

[sottyrulez]

If no one objects, I really want KY Krew pulled off stage as soon as humanly possible.

(I'm at about page 16 of my read which right around where the UBER scummy swap took place.)

I see no value in KY's swap yesterday and don't think his prescence made any difference whatsoever. (Other than the fact that he hammered the choice and locked in a lynch choice at a key moment in the game where opinions could have changed off camera on who to lynch.)

-Zachrulez

[sottyrulez]

He also said that a cult was “enabled” which suggests to me at least that it wasn't there from the start of the game. How would a cult come from a good choice? I think they are just throwing it out there to further confuse us and distract from a KY Krew lynch.

- Sotty

[sottyrulez]

I'm not sure why Thesp was picked, but I believe the assistant producer role is an innocent role. (If my understanding of the positions on the first page is correct.)

[sottyrulez]

^ Zach

[sottyrulez]

The alignment of the assistant directer is unknown.

The alignment of the assistant producer is innocent. (But we don't know who it is either.)

-Zachrulez

[sottyrulez]

I dislike the so overwhelmingly OMGUS back-and-forth between Talilan-elmosaurian/Glork. Talilan is clearly attacking them simply for them attacking Talilan and it’s honestly obnoxious. Neither side is really listening to each other and it’s becoming increasingly circular.

Yep, I was right, hewitt is scummy. The scum-team's making it really easy; throwing all their eggs in one basket and attacking us.

So you seriously believe that all the scum are the players attacking you? I actually think Hewitt's assessment of the big back and forth between your hydra and the other players is pretty spot on.

The timing of the MafiaJin firing is a head scratcher. I was under the belief that CKD was brought on stage to continue the talk with MafiaJin but instead he fires him right away. If he was going to do that, why not do it when they were off stage, or at least listen to what Mafiajin had to say. I'm going to be interested in the explanation around that.

-Sotty

[sottyrulez]

Goofballs: Nobody is voting because Krew is still On Camera, and we can't vote for On Camera people.

Last time I voted MafiaJin while he was ON camera, my vote was counted.

-DGB

Strange... are we assuming that we can't touch people on camera, or is there a rule that actually exists that prevents this?

I just looked and couldn't find one... so I propose we test whether on camera people really are immune to lynch.

-Zachrulez

Vote: KY Krew

Gasper, [Starkiss, Thebladethatkilledmufasa. Hewitt], [Everyone Else], sottyrulez

[sottyrulez]

In that case I'll just post a condorcet.

Vote: KY Krew, Gasper, [Starkiss, Thebladethatkilledmufasa. Hewitt], [Everyone Else], sottyrulez

[sottyrulez]

Sotty: I want the usual -- that is, detailed reasons for supsicion of me. Also, answer my poll, please.

Right now it has a lot to do with your vote for Zwet and how KY Krew rushed the end of the day. I can't believe the two aren't linked in some fashion. DGB was right, at the time things were starting to turn for you. I don't think it was a coincidence

Then there is the whole back and forth you had with Talilan. It just feels needlessly over blown to me and the fact that I have read the thread but can sit here and not remember your actual points against them isn't good.

Also you seem to be thinking more about yourself than the town. You aren't going to be lynched today but you seem overly concerned about making the day about someone else over KY Krew. Zach did have you listed slightly lower on our list, but he now agrees more with me after your reaction. He doesn't know why you would be so worried about it when todays lynch is KY Krew.

Which door would you vote for right now if it were up to you?
A) Door 1
B) Door 2
C) Undecided

If you've come to a decision, reasons for your decision would be much-appreciated.

We think we should just go ahead and switch to door 2 and swallow our WIFOM pill. Door 2 is the strategic door, whose value is just nullified by WIFOM. We say stick with the plan.

-Sotty

Updated condorcet.

Vote: KY Krew

, Gaspar, Hewitt, [ThebladethatkilledMufasa, starkiss], [Thesp, Talilan], Panzer, BEC, GaB, No lynch, Sottyrulez

[sottyrulez]

Right now it has a lot to do with your vote for Zwet and how KY Krew rushed the end of the day. I can't believe the two aren't linked in some fashion. DGB was right, at the time things were starting to turn for you. I don't think it was a coincidence

I have no defense to the timing other than to say that the scums set me up, and that once I'm lynched as an innocent, look strongly at the people who first proposed the KY-Gaspar connection.

DGB is the first person that hops into mind. I'm pretty sure she was the first to suggest that link. Who else would you put here?

sottyrulez, how is Gaspar thinking more for himself? Also, is what he's doing at all harmful to the town? (or whoever else)

Pretty sure we answered this in the same post. Barring some divine intervention, the lynch for the day is KY Krew. Gaspar appears worried that he is going to get lynched and so is making the day about someone who isn't KY Krew. Or at least attempting to. This is harmful for the town because it could serve as a distraction to the town.

Yay, VP is playing!

-Sotty.

[sottyrulez]

The reason I'm talking about other people is because IMO, there's very little to discuss about Krew. He is absolute, definite scum. Zero doubt in my mind. More certain of it than even Talilan. What I'm doing, Sottyrulez, is trying to get something ELSE useful out of this day as well, by asking critical questions of several players. That's just basic Protown Play 101. What do you want me to say? "Hay guys, I still think Krew is the lynch of the day?" If that's what you want, I'll say it for the dozenth time. But after making all of the above statements, I didn't think anybody could be so stupid enough to accuse me of "making the day about somebody else."

I suggest you stop and think very long and very hard about what I've said about KY Krew. Especially look at the post where I absolutely rip into Talilan for saying that I should be lynched Day Two. And then I want you to tell me if you really think this is a valid argument at all.

Okay, you could have a point here. I do personally need to review the whole exchange again, so when I get a minute I will do that.

-Sotty

[sottyrulez]

Now that the vote will count...

Vote: KY Krew, Gaspar, Hewitt, [VP Baltar, starkiss] Thesp, Panzer, BEC, GaB, No lynch, Sottyrulez[/b]

-Zachrulez

Tags removed. - Mod

[sottyrulez]

Ah crap, it's gotta be at the bottom. Stupid sig thing.

Vote: KY Krew

, Gaspar, Hewitt, [ThebladethatkilledMufasa, starkiss], Thesp Panzer, BEC, GaB, No lynch, Sottyrulez

[sottyrulez]

Thankfully you can only stunt in once per scene, according to the role descriptions on the first page. I don't think he can stunt himself back over again.

Let myself get behind in this game since my last post. Catching up now.

-Sotty.

[sottyrulez]

@sottyrulez - Gaspar is diverting from KY's lynch by making himself a candidate as well? If not, create the scenario so I understand where you believe things will go if Gaspar continues to distract.

I don't know what you are trying to get at here. If you want answer can you rephrase the question? Otherwise I'm starting to think that you are just posting pointless questions to make it look like you are doing something. (AKA asking DGB if she has anything to show.)

Ok, lynch now plz. We clearly have an assitant producer who is scum.

No. The assistant producer is an innocent unless there is some extreme bastardization going on here. Still why chose KY Krew again?

Also Thesp is right.

[sottyrulez]

Have a look at Post 5. And you're right, it was more of a rhetorical question.

[sottyrulez]

Strange how you find it in your heart to claim that NOW when you can't escape lynch, and basically refused to do so yesterday, and chose to swap out and avoid lynch rather than claiming then.

-Zachrulez

[sottyrulez]

Is there anything we want to do to signal the on camera people that they are free to make a decision, or even to signal to them what decision we think they should make?

-Zachrulez

[sottyrulez]

Could just be roleplaying.

Anyway, CKD seems to be thinking we will see KY's flip before they finish the scene. Thesp needs to send a message of sorts to tell them to go ahead and vote already.

-Sotty.

[sottyrulez]

Ha. Ninja'ed

-Sotty

[sottyrulez]

Works for me. They seem to be under the impression that once lynched we will know the alignment of KY Krew and that will help them pick a door. I can't think of picture that can convey that we don't.

-Sotty.

[sottyrulez]

Weekend has been kicking my ass and has even spilled over into today so I am behind again. Will catch up and post tomorrow.

Would very much perfer to stay off stage fopr the next scene.

-Sotty

[sottyrulez]

Scientologist.. I take it that's not [Something Else].

If it's not [something else] what the hell is it?

I'm going to take it that Mr. Grey meant the outcome for Scene 2 was good. Anyhow, Scientologist sounds like a cult to me....guess KY Krew was telling the truth perhaps. Though it seems strange that he would tell us there was a cult when we would have had no clue otherwise.

I want to look back and see who believed him out of hand about the cult when he first brought it up.

I still don't think there is a cult. I think KY Krew claimed the one thing that would make us panic the most. Unless you can explain to me how a cult works in the endgame that is laid out for us?

So, I've been thinking about the "Scientology" and "SMG" alignments, looking at the rules, and musing on the previous CT games, and I have some thoughts.

In the first CT game, BALCO was a third-party alignment, whose sole member had to sell 'roids to three different people. In the second CT game, there was a "Zodiac killer" which didn't actually exist. It was but a red herring.

The rules state that there are "two main alignments: Innocent and [Something Else]." Based on that and what CKD said, I believe that one of two scenarios is likely:
1) CKD is also a Scientologist and simply lied about the mafia group's name. His mentioning of the mafia name "SMG" came after Krew's Scene One debacle, which could usefully serve to create this kind of confusion as we look in the wrong directions.
2) Krew/Cruise was a Scientologist, there is in fact a Screen Mafia Guild, Kruise was probably operating alone as a third party. If this is the case, we probably won't be able to find out anything useful about him unless he was in fact a cult-ish role. But as others have stated, I don't think he'd say "there's a cult" if he were a cultist/cult leader. It seems particularly self-destructive.

What about:

3) The SMG and scientologists are one in the same? There is a bunch of actor scientologists that could be the role names here. http://www.adherents.com/largecom/fam_s ... ogist.html or here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientologists They could also be part of the SMG.

ALSO cults really make sense with the Day 1 on stage talk about John Locke turning into a villian.

Actually this is a very good point. I hadn't thought about that.

Okay sorry, but catch up is on hold. Posting what I have because I am rushing out and might not finish catching up till tomorrow now. Up to page 41

-Sotty

[sottyrulez]

The doves would work.

Mafiajin, I don't get what you are trying to say, DGB didn't claim to know the alignment of the dead players. Just that she found it convenient that one of CKD pushers was dead.

As for the choice I would be leaning more towards going with the mother. Would rather have the neutral choice than the bad one.

[sottyrulez]

-Sotty

[sottyrulez]

Glork, Ito, Mr Lewis, The Count, and/or Mr. Godwin

He seems to be implying he chose five players for that scene even though he only chose 4.

No, he had to chose five in case some of the roles became unavailable. See post 948.

-Sotty

[sottyrulez]

He failed to respond to my point yesterday (1033) that if nothing else, it should have been obvious to him that KY Crew was scum based on the way KY Crew hammered in the stage choice day one to set zwet as the lynch. The timing of this is

only

consistent with him day-talking with other people in the thread. He hammered as soon as Gaspar changed his vote I think, prematurely. It would be ridiculous to suggest this was anything other than the result of his on-stage buddies telling him that he needed to hammer at that point. In retrospect I should have ensured he addressed this point, but we will have the opportunity to put it to him again when he is pulled off stage.

I agree with this point 100%

I have to agree also that I don't see how Gaspar can be so confident that the information elmosaurian is giving is accurate. If he is as sure of elmo's scumminess as I am (and he seemed to be), then I don't see why he would assume elmosaurian would be telling the truth.

- ortolan

True, at first I though DGB was just fueling the drama but she has a good point when it comes to Gaspar. The advocates are two people he believes to be scum and yet he was so willing to just believe them both. No matter how he tries to reason it, displaying zero hesitation looks very suspicious to me.

How would VP Baltar know we were planning on showing the dead's alignments? How would he know we even had their alignments?

That statement sounds very fishy to me.

I think you are reaching here. Why wouldn't we have their alignments? Why wouldn't they be wondering what those two players flipped? It's logical to assume that we would be trying to get some message to them.

In other words I agree with the Troll.

Thesp, why the (non) vote for Panzer?

-Sotty

[sottyrulez]

We're lynching the obvscum elmosaurian instead.

You know, if a majority of you guys are scum, you can just tell me and I'll stop trying so hard.

Do you really think this?

I've seen you attacking Talilan a lot in your little war of words, but I haven't seen a vote.

Who do you think is scum?

-Zachrulez

[sottyrulez]

Looking back now I think I can see what Yos was trying to do on stage that day. He expected that we (Talilan) would get the advocate information when we stunted in. It probably would have told us to pick Door 1. We would have came out advocating the same course of action as KY Krew did. Confusion would have ensued, KY and Tali BOTH wanted door 1, ending up with a reasonable reason to switch to Door 2 for those who had expressed suspicion of KY & Talilan.

Us not getting the advocate information threw Yos's devious plan into disarray and he ended out on a limb.

I actually like this train of thought. It makes sense to me.

Ortolan, can you explain just why you think yos and Glork are both scum and bussing each other? After reading everything that has been going down I am starting to think it is one or the other. I don't see the potential for bussing. (If you have already explained this, just point me to the post)

Mafiajin, why the change of heart on your vote?

Thesp, what do you think of Elmosaurian?

I really want to see a scum picks that aren't Glork from Elmosaurian. Not voting Talilan is looking worse and worse the more time that passes. I don't like the excuse of elmo not agreeing, you're a hydra, you need to get your heads together and reach a decision. Feels like a deflection really.

As for the logic puzzle on stage, I have to admit it confuses me a little. These kind of things aren't my strong point. I will have to talk with Zach and see what he thinks and see if he can explain it better to me. We'll get back to you on that.

-Sotty

[sottyrulez]

Yossy do you think the Crone is the right choice?

I'm pretty sure that Mother is the best choice here; I can't really get anything useful out of CKD's claimed clue, and we know mother is at least a safe choice.

Which is interesting because

Of the three choices, there is apparently one choice that is good, one choice that is bad, and one choice that is neither good nor bad; that choices is merely indifferent.

I can also tell all of you that I know that The Mother is not the bad choice.

Saying you know is a lot stronger certainty than now saying you are only "pretty sure."

-Zachrulez

Tags removed. Use bold only for voting. - Mod

[sottyrulez]

Yossy do you think the Crone is the right choice?

I'm pretty sure that Mother is the best choice here; I can't really get anything useful out of CKD's claimed clue, and we know mother is at least a safe choice.

Which is interesting because

Of the three choices, there is apparently one choice that is good, one choice that is bad, and one choice that is neither good nor bad; that choices is merely indifferent.

I can also tell all of you that I know that The Mother is not the bad choice.

Saying you know is a lot stronger certainty than now saying you are only "pretty sure."

-Zachrulez

Tags removed. Use bold only for voting. - Mod

Sotty have you read the on camera thread at all? There is a neutral, a bad and a good. He KNOWS its not the bad choice. It could be neutral or good.

So Zach, what pick would you make if you were on camera? And why?

My point was that he said he knows it's not the bad choice on camera, but he's since transitioned into weaker language, saying he's pretty sure it's the best choice as opposed to knowing it is. There's a world of difference between knowing and saying you are "pretty sure"

I would probably chose the mother if I was on camera. You can reason it based on CKD's info alone, and actually after I did go through the logic of CKD's info, I wonder if Yos' info was simply a piece of information that we could have eventually stumbled onto ourselves anyway.

-Zachrulez

[sottyrulez]

Also, Gaspar automatically trusting elmo's information despite declaring him obv-scum is completely nonsensical. There is evidence they are linked, and there is also evidence they are scummy separately (I would remind you three out of three dead townies all said Gaspar was scummy).

I agree with you here a lot and this is the main reason my suspicions of Glork have jumped up lately. He was starting to feel a little better to me as the days wore on but as soon as he just believed both advocates information despite finding them both scummy I felt like he needs to be lynched.

Thanks for the explanation, I see that I will have to go back and look at some of these events as you describe them and see if I agree. Our vote is very likely to go towards elmo today. It has a lot to do with his interaction with the obvscum KY Krew on stage and no matter how many times he goes over it I just don't believe him. I also don't like his late vote and pretty lack of a case on Talilan apart from countering the stuff they post.

As for the problem on stage, I sat down with Zach and we spoke about it coming up with the same four possibilities that Zorblag posted. Zach seemed to think that Yos's info isn't as strong as people seem to think it is. I will let him explain why he thinks that.

I am liking Thesp's idea more of just letting the people on stage figure out the puzzle for themselves and post their reasoning as to why they reached that conclusion. I think that would provide more information for us than simply telling them which way to vote.

[sottyrulez]

-Sotty

[sottyrulez]

Talilan/ortolan, is what you posted in 1304 what you posted onscreen? (For the record, I'm really, really not happy that people onstage seem to be taking this as special information, though I'm sure it's an honest mistake.)

That was also rubbing me the wrong way. I am glad that DGB seems to be pushing them away from that thought now though. Hewitt latched on it which makes my gut crawl and makes me doubt the Crone choice somewhat.

If we were to vote now it would be the hammer. Are we ready for that?

-Sotty

[sottyrulez]

I guess we can still talk after the lynch anyway. I will get with Zach and see what he thinks then probably hammer.

-Sotty

[sottyrulez]

I am a bit perplexed by what sottyrulez is driving at here as I think that it's pretty clear that there's a difference between the mother not being the bad choice and knowing that she's the good choice (and hence knowing that she's the best choice.)

I'd also like to see how one would get that mother is the correct choice based on curiouskarmadog's information alone.

For that matter I'd like to see how Ortolan came to the conclusion that crone is the clear choice (Gaspar has given one way to get to that idea in the on camera thread) but I'd be surprised if that's what Ortolan had in mind.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

Maybe I'm being a bit overpicky on the use of context by yos here, using pretty sure over I know it's the best choice. Maybe I'm being a bit paranoid, but seeing the use of pretty sure as opposed to I know feels like possible distancing from one's own assertion. It's just what I'm seeing and thinking as I observe it. It may be that I'm just seeing something that isn't actually there. (But I find it worth making a note of regardless.)

As to the choice, perhaps I'm seeing this in a unique way, or I'm just not seeing everything as it is, but to me it looks like we have several pieces to a math problem, and are approaching it already knowing part of the answer. (That the mother is not the bad choice.) If you put the choices in alphabetical order and use the information provided by CKD's note, then c comes before a if the alphabet loops right? If mother is choice c, and the bad choice does not come before the best letter of the alphabet, (which I'm assuming is choice a) then you can reason that the mother can't be the bad choice. (And I'm more or less discarding yos' assertion that it's not when I work it out.)

Is there something that I'm missing?

-Zachrulez

[sottyrulez]

Wow really? A vote on us as we are getting ready to hammer you based on nothing more than a “bad vibe”. You have spent the last bunch of pages fighting with Talilan and then when we say it looks bad you haven't voted for them, you vote. Then we say you haven't actually built a case on them either, so you drop your vote and jump on us. This doesn't feel genuine and seems like a last ditch attempt for us not to hammer. You see Thesp and Panzer leaning town on you and we're your stalemate.

I've seen enough.

-Sotty

Vote: elmosaurian

[sottyrulez]

If there's the choice on whether or not to keep me Off-Stage or On-Stage keep me Off if at all possible because there's a fucking lot that I have to say to certain players.

Scum..

You're number one of that list *expletive*.

I voted for the Crone because when I was On-Stage during Scene 1 although I was fairly certain we should follow Valentine the Off-Stage people were a lot more sure of it than I was. It always seems to me like the Off-Stagers know more than the On-Stagers. So when Talilan piped in with this pro-Crone (which was really random now that I've looked back at the conversation at the time) and the "don't trust/lynch Elmo", multi-paragraph post I figured it was clear to everybody Off-Stage to follow the Crone. That and once we got the green light I figured that meant we were clear and correct, which re-affirmed my belief that the Off-Stagers thought the Crone was the correct choice. So I voted the Crone.

Why would the off stage people have more info on the puzzle than the on stage?

Now that brings up something I'd forgotten.

Why do people think that curiouskarmadog ended up on stage. It seems to me that it should be absolutely clear but apparently it isn't for everyone. He says he didn't put himself on his list. Does that change people's opinions at all? Why or why not?

He was the advocate wasn't he? He doesn't have the power to control that part of the on stage so I think the scum put him in there because people were suspicious of him. Likewise with elmo. They wanted us to doubt the info and pick the wrong choice which is what happened.

[sottyrulez]

Bah

-Sotty

[sottyrulez]

I agree with this entirely - I'm not liking hewitt's excuses.

What excuses? I was asked why I came up with the reasoning I did behind my vote so I answered.

Your reasoning is that you chose what you thought everyone else wanted chosen without thinking about the choice yourself so you could blame others for the outcome of the choice?

Also, since when do you think the opinions of one person who posted on camera when they weren't supposed to reflective of the entire off stage consensus anyway? It looks to me like you're just trying to latch onto an excuse for picking your choice.

-Zachrulez

[sottyrulez]

Pretty convienient.

[sottyrulez]

Basically, if you are town, I don't see why I should listen to you. I definitely shouldn't try to convince you of anything, since you seem unable to contemplate arguments that don't fit your view of the game.

This is one of the most anti-town approaches to the game I've ever read. Basically you're saying you'll completely ignore anyone you don't like.

No he didn't say that at all. I can understand his reasoning here as for as you thinking anyone who attacks you is scum. This is Thok talking strictly about you and no one else. You are trying to make it out to be worse than what it is here. Not cool.

I see both Thok and Gasper addressed this. I agree with what they said.

I am happy with CKD picking his own list of who goes on stage as long as he explains the reasons like he did before, it could be a good way to figure out his alignment.

-Sotty.

[sottyrulez]

I don't really recall this, and when I looked at our posts in iso, I realized that this was in our 4th post, during scene one, which was a pretty early peliminary read by Sotty, that she actually did explain.

You read the game right? Why don't you tell us if you think it was reasonable or not? Trying to fish for a reaction from the town here on how it looks to everyone?

-Zachrulez

[sottyrulez]

Oh what a shock. (Not really.)

We actually compiled a table for all the choices and found some interesting patterns.

My wife should have that handy, so I'll let her post that.

-Zachrulez

[sottyrulez]

also, AP....you screwed up.

Largely because of DGB continually pestering for a stuntman to be appointed.

[sottyrulez]

cough cough stuntman? LONG after the green light?

[sottyrulez]

Yeah, and wasn't. At that point it was infinintly better to simply wait until the scene was over.

[sottyrulez]

Respectfully I disagree. Goofball needs to die.

[sottyrulez]

Okay I started to think that the choices were actually really important and telling during the last scene so I complied this table showing us who was on stage at what point and what they picked.


Right now I think DGB, VP, Hewitt are likely scum. if not Hewitt then Starkiss, I am revoking my gut feel of innocent. Starting to change my opinion of Gaspar, but I am not willing to say he is innocent at this point. CKD, Talilan, Zu Faul, SL, Thok are all likely innocents in my opinion. Haven't read the off stage stuff yet and I will do that in a bit. I need some lunch and I have other projects to get on.

DGB needs to die.

-Sotty

Table removed. Read the rules regarding allowed tags. - Mod

[sottyrulez]

Well it does seem like you guys used the stuntman on other days so it would be normal to assume there would be one. I don't even understand what happened with that...?

But that still doesn't explain why ckd, or the rest of you, would think it would be a good idea to decide the lynch while the person isn't there. They can't discuss with you or answer your questions. It's the equivalent of having a legal trial where only the prosecution gets to present. How can you judge that kind of thing? It seems unfair and tilted to help scum.
~elvis

Obviously the mindset we've been going at this with is faulty, and our dependence on the stuntman has been exposed the moment we didn't get one for the last scene.

Obviously we need to go about this with a different, and more alert mindset.

[sottyrulez]

I believe I understand what you are trying to say Elvis.

Your issue is with the idea of stunting someone off with little time to defend themself from what would seem to be a predetermined lynch before they even arrived there, correct?

[sottyrulez]

I'm not sure we ever actually agreed upon it so much as that we've just quietly found ourselves cultured into that mindset.

And you're right, it is a dangerous way to play

[sottyrulez]

Orbots, I would recommend re-reading scene 4.

[sottyrulez]

So, what do we as a town hope to get out of the stuntman role?

This is something I haven't really thought of until now, but I think is worth discussing.

[sottyrulez]

Orbots, I would recommend re-reading scene 4.

.... so your answer is "Not just the table, Mr. Orbots, but her play in general" ??

I don't understand why you refuse to give a straight answer.

I don't understand how you can't comprehend that the question has already been answered in scene 4. It should be obvious that I suspected her, and why I suspected her. (Even though I didn't exlicitely say until now "hey, I am suspicious of DGB")

So yeah. Am I really going to have to spell it all out again?

[sottyrulez]

And it is occuring to me that using the stuntman as a lynching tool isn't necissarily the one and only way we HAVE to use the stuntman.

For example, if we had a stuntman and didn't like the push toward pushing the button on scene 4, we could have stunted someone on camera to try to swing the vote.

[sottyrulez]

Yeah, I am inclinded to agree with Elvis.

Our stuntman plan and our "not sharing our suspicions" before the scene began resulted in a weak ass Mafiajin lynch and a scum influenced decision on camera.

I think being more open is a better approach to this, and it holds people accountable as well, like the director and the stuntman.

[sottyrulez]

Do as you please scums.

Sorry VP, as much as I like you, you're 2nd on my list right below DGB.

You pushed crone every bit as hard as she did, and I can't think of any logical reason for why you guys went that way on camera.

[sottyrulez]

What a horrendoes misrepresentation of what actually happend on scene 1.

Aren't we forgetting that vote FORCED the Zwet condercet lynch?

Yeah, string her up... PLEASE.

[sottyrulez]

For what it's worth, I would have...

Voted for Valentine to drive.
Voted for Door 2
Voted for Mother

[sottyrulez]

I think sotty is trying to string up the townies. If that's the scum plan, then I wouldn't be surprised if the scum had a better-than-average voting record.

You're blaming me for the zwet lynch? I didn't even have a Condorcet at the time, only a single freakin' vote... I was voting Gaspar... no Condorcet!

Your distorting the fact that you said it was cowardly of us not to have voted when you guys had not reached a lynch when the decision happend.

Your position isn't relevant here, the horrible quality of your attack is.

[sottyrulez]

In case someone has missed this gem from sotty, who is saying my Condorcet vote is responsible for zwet's lynch:

(1) I made it clear that I thought zwet was town over the objections of my second head.
(2) I didn't even have a Condorcet at the time
(3) I had one only a single vote... Gaspar... no Condorcet!

Has nothing to do with your attack. Another distortion.

[sottyrulez]

Yeah, the on camera vote, that you accused us of not voting in.

[sottyrulez]

That you accused of of not voting in like scum cowards actually as I recall it.

[sottyrulez]

The point you are so horribly missing here is that the reason we hadn't voted in scene 1 is because YOU GUYS HADN'T LYNCHED YET.

[sottyrulez]

So what? You think my defense is a lie?

Because I think "your absurd diatribe of bs" is not helpful to the town in the least

[sottyrulez]

because if every1 in the town suspects that person or a person is the consensus suspect/lynchguy, then the scumbags will make that person the advocate, thus clouding our advocate information's validity.

this is not a normal game of mafia.

Hi fearmongering.

Frankly what was ignored in scene 3, and what is being ignored now is that if the advocates lie to us, we are bestowed with the ability to make them answer for it in the next scene... of course if we lynch them first and then make a choice based on distrust that we have not yet proved, then we make both a bad choice and lynch a townie.

... yay fear.

- Zachrulez

[sottyrulez]

Hi fearmongering.

Frankly what was ignored in scene 3, and what is being ignored now is that if the advocates lie to us, we are bestowed with the ability to make them answer for it in the next scene... of course if we lynch them first and then make a choice based on distrust that we have not yet proved, then we make both a bad choice and lynch a townie.

... yay fear.

- Zachrulez

So your argument is that it's best to give the scum the advantage in the onstage scenes because we can just lynch them afterward, even though the onstage is far more important to endgame. That makes no sense whatsoever.

How many scum advocates have we actually had? I only know of one for a fact, and he was a dead man walking before he was even made an advocate.

How is onstage far more important to endgame?

[sottyrulez]

Also let's not forget that the scum automatically get the worst setup possible if we lynch them down to 2 regardless of the on stage outcomes.

[sottyrulez]

... or that town got the good choice on scene 2 despite the fact that there was a scum advocate.

[sottyrulez]

Is my point getting across yet?

And hey, if the scum do pick an advocate that people don't trust, then we have the benefit of discussion now don't we?

Benefit of discussion that we can decide as town to send a message on camera to communicate whether or not we want them to trust the advocate?

If only there was a system for that...

Oh wait.

[sottyrulez]

if we would have gotten the fucking stuntman in and yanked either you or Starkiss out from off stage and lynched your ass(after you had time to "defend" yourself)...would you still say my choice was bad?

also, gaspar, can I see your list of who stays and goes tomorrow..in your next post, that would be great. Also, I would like to see the order of preference too..that is important.

I also offered myself up for the lynch yesterday..reasons were provided...your thoughts on that?...also I mentioned a no lynch yesterday that got absolutely NO response....thoughts on that?

I think DGB definitely needs to be left off stage.

And kept apart from VP Baltar if that's not possible.

[sottyrulez]

And kept apart from VP Baltar if that's not possible.

I'm the stuntman. Pretty sure I should stay off stage.

Oh right. I forgot to thank DGB for that...

[sottyrulez]

Anyway (if I get my way), if she ends up on stage, that means you'll be off.

So what's the problem?

[sottyrulez]

I'm pointing out that you are arguing about unnecessary things that you are wrong about to start with anyhow. Meanwhile, we haven't seen your scum/advisement list for ckd either, since you too said I was being illogical on the strategizing issue. I would think that would be your top priority.

We will have a list once my wife catches up with the game and shares her own thoughts with me.

[sottyrulez]

Nonetheless, we BOTH want DGB off stage, and we would have preferred you and DGB broken up, but given that you are the stuntman, I will concede that it is unrealistic to entertain any option that puts you on stage.

[sottyrulez]

Okay I am caught up.

Elvis- The post you talk about in post 1513 was made by me and I found Mr JellyLee scummy because he found both advocates in the first scummy despite the math. I pretty much explained this in the post in question. Also it didn't help that KY Krew's quick hammer also expressed suspicions of both advocates and the fact I was believing pretty strongly that CKD was town.

===

Seriously! I was taken aback when both Gaspar and Sotty said that Star is obvtown. wtf?

No where did I refer to Star as “obvtown” Here is what I said about Star...

To my eye the crone wagon looks a lot scummier than the ones not voting her. Pooky has managed to hide behind his character since he replaced in. Hewitt's reasoning for voting the crone was just awful.

Of the people on that wagon the only person I am willing to think really think is town is Starkiss and that's just a gut reaction.

I realize that they all probably aren't scum, but I am not feeling good about them at all.

I had a theory in the works that meant Star would have to be town. This theory has since been flushed down the toilet and Star has now gone back to probable scum.

But seriously VP, where did you get Obvtown from there? Over reaching much?

also since I am a betting man, anyone want to take a wager that whatever the decision they pick, it will be the wrong one..

heh. yeah, I think there is probably undue influence on stage right now. There is so much confusion going on up there right now, it is difficult to sort out who is who. The only good thing is that once we find out what the incorrect choice is, we should be certain that scum were pushing for it.

Yeah, it was a very dramatic shift. I guess if they get the wrong outcome, it should be easy to see the scum from it.

Gaspar, zu faul and Starkiss are all scum. That is all.

What about Pooky and GaB?

What is your read on Pooky there Sotty?

Leaning scum. What's yours?

Do as you please scums.

Sorry VP, as much as I like you, you're 2nd on my list right below DGB.

You pushed crone every bit as hard as she did, and I can't think of any logical reason for why you guys went that way on camera.

Surely that defines my entire play this game. You have become increasingly illogical as this game has moved on and I don't like it one bit.

What? Explain please.

===

I can say that sotty was a coward in Scene 1 and didn't vote, then picked the right choices, to better be able to crucify the other players that did not.

What a horrendoes misrepresentation of what actually happend on scene 1.

Aren't we forgetting that vote FORCED the Zwet condercet lynch?

Yeah, string her up... PLEASE.

No retort to this point?

In case someone has missed this gem from sotty, who is saying my Condorcet vote is responsible for zwet's lynch:

(1) I made it clear that I thought zwet was town over the objections of my second head.
(2) I didn't even have a Condorcet at the time
(3) I had one only a single vote... Gaspar... no Condorcet!

Again... No. We are not blaming you for Zwet's lynch .

What we did say is that you claimed we were a coward in scene one because we didn't vote. We didn't get a chance to vote because of the Zwet lynch. So you are misrepping what happened twice here.

===

DGB needs to die.

Did you come to this conclusion based on the chart, or something else?

The chart is part of it. (And doh on me forgetting the rules. Sorry mod!) We were pretty clear why we think GaB needs to go on stage but here is a handy break down:

-She was the main reason Crone was picked in scene three.
-Scene 4 she sat back refusing to commit on a 50/50 choice for the town. Her reasoning was to let the scum go first so she can chose. Weak
-Then, when everyone else (expect Zu) had indicated which way they were likely to vote SHE STILL DID NOT COMMIT it was ridiculous. What was the point holding back at this point?
-This whole post (minus my mistake about which way Gaspar was leaning of course)

The point is these people have made statements about which way they are thinking of voting and yet you continue to dodge the question. Lets break it down.

You think Thok is scum. Thok doesn't want to push the button. What does that make you think?

Gasper also doesn't want to push the button. What does that make you think?

I could go on and on but the point is that practically all of these people have made a commitment one way or another. You say you are waiting for the decepticon's to make a move, the moves are out there clear as day and yet you STILL stand back.

Personally I think you want to control the vote. You will want to use the panic of the deadline to push though what you want. In the last scene you were all about the Crone. You couldn't stop going on about the Crone. You wanted the Crone so bad... Yet here we are in a completely 50/50 situation and you hesitate? You won't commit? I don't even understand WHY.

Initially we wanted to push the button. We decided that before the scene even started simple because pushing buttons is fun. We wanted people to take positions and have to explain their actions. Since the start of the scene, we have seen who wants to do what and we have changed our mind. This is what town does. They look at the situation and re-evaluate as time wears on and more information is made available. All you are doing is standing back, waiting to strike.

Right now, the very last thing I want is to see you in a position to hammer the vote one way or another.

-When she finally did say which way she was going to roll it wasn't a firm commitment.
-We (the sottyrulez) hydra was solid town on her reads until we started to find her scummy.
-She was part of the shift towards pushing the button on stage.
-I really don't think it is an coincidence that the last two times she was on stage the scum won the choice. She needs to be kept away from the onstage going ons.

<3 elvis

I don't understand how you can't comprehend that the question has already been answered in scene 4. It should be obvious that I suspected her, and why I suspected her. (Even though I didn't exlicitely say until now "hey, I am suspicious of DGB")

So yeah. Am I really going to have to spell it all out again?

You posted "DGB must die" directly after your chart, making me think that your conclusion was based primarily on the chart. I was trying to get clarification. I'm not sure why you're being so antagonistic about this.

Hi. I was the one (Sotty) who posted the chart and what have you, Zach did the rest of the posting yesterday and he is defo the more forceful of the two of us. This is pretty much true to his meta. I'm pretty sure I have answered your question now. If not, let me know.

===

{Kise}

Seriously! I was taken aback when both Gaspar and Sotty said that Star is obvtown. wtf?

sotty said that? I don't think anything dramo has posted looked townish.. no offense to you, dram, but...

Dude, are you seriously shitting on your own hydra to make us look scummy? Also, please read both threads. I never called you obvtown.

What about Gaspar?

Better yet while I'm at it, sottyrulez, just for clarification, which one of you said that I was obvtown, and why?

{Kise}

Answered up there in my VP section.

I'd be willing to bet my cat's ovary that 2 (yes TWO) of the people on MafiaJin's wagon are anti-town. As I said, don't have a problem with SL. I've had my eye on CKD ever since that whole "converting to the dark side" thing, and I never liked VP's predecessor, Mufasa.

This post makes me laugh.

===
As for the onstage off stage list here is what we have:

Onstage

zu_Faul – HAS TO BE
ShadowLurker – HAS TO BE
Thesp (I underdstand he is the picture guy, but I think he needs to commit on stage at some point. Plus we have the sound guy off stage to pass any messages.)
PookyTheMagicalBear
StarKiss
hewitt
Talilan

Offstage

curiouskarmadog
GoofballsAndBaloons
Gaspar
sottyrulez
Mighty Orbots
Thok
VP Baltar

I personally think that this has a nice mix of scummy and townie people in both sections.

-Sotty

[sottyrulez]

1. This is interesting. I've been arguing that Talilan's mispost was the main catalyst for the move from Mother to Crone. Why do you disagree?

DGB is the type of player that has a lot of influence on others. She has all kinds of gears that enable her to get players to do what she wants. This is brutally clear in scene three

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 34#1879434

In the above link CKD works out the puzzle with the help of the others and posts in thread. Everyone is pretty much in agreement. If you scroll down you will see GaB's first post after this is revealed is her acting up for the cameras. She doesn't comment on the puzzle (post 342) She later says that she doesn't trust CKD. There is a little back and forth with CKD before this:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 49#1879749

Here she starts to suggest that both advocates could be lying. She doesn't trust CKD, she doesn't trust elmo she is laying the ground work to ignore the logical part of the puzzle in that the mother is the clear best choice.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 41#1880041

Then she suggests that the neutral choice isn't really neutral and more “elmo and CKD are lying” posts. More examples of her not trusting the problem.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 51#1880351
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 63#1880363
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 15#1880915
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 36#1881636
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 53#1881853
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 27#1881927

And the list goes on. Literally go back and re-read the scene, as soon as the problem is worked out the GaB hydra goes into over drive talking about the trust of the advocates, building it up slowly until she can't stop talking about the Crone. She was pushing the Crone from the get go, dirtying our two advocates along the way. One we now know is town and one I think is very likely town.

This is ALL before Talilan makes the mispost.

2. Let's assume DGB is scum for the moment. What advantage do you see in her hanging back and not voting instead of laying a vote and ensuring the bad choice was picked?

I think it's about control. I think she was positioning herself to hammer the bad choice because if anyone can spin it, she can. I also think she wasn't anticipating being called out for this behavior which is why she ended up NOT voting. Something I can't excuse.

I also forgot another point about how when we spoke about holding the people who voted the Crone responsible for the bad choice she was extremely quick to point her finger at Hewitt. Not cool seeing as how it is clear she was a MAJOR driving force behind the choice.

What? Explain please.

Calling star town makes no sense to me. Coming in and saying I'm scum because I voted Crone without seemingly taking much else into consideration makes no sense to me. I did give a reason why I voted the Crone and was rather forthcoming about it, so I don't like you painting it as if it was an unreasoned decision.

Fair enough. I can understand the Star thing being confusing. You are so high on our lists because of how you went along with GnB and we find her hella scummy. Plus I don't think you have done anything sufficiently pro town in this game and that troubles me.

-Sotty

[sottyrulez]

Orbots: I can see your point. However I am of the opinion that not many people apart from Hewitt actually saw the Tal mispost. SL and VP both post almost right after indicating that they had no idea what Hewitt was talking about (posts 495 + 497). Maybe some used this as an excuse to jump on and switch over, but I still think that GnB is the main reason the Crone was such a viable choice that they could do that.

I think she was positioning herself to hammer the bad choice because if anyone can spin it, she can. I also think she wasn't anticipating being called out for this behavior which is why she ended up NOT voting. Something I can't excuse.

Well she was in position to hammer but didn't. Why not? Are you satisfied with her explanation?

I had to look back for an explanation because I don't remember her ever giving a clear one.

I must admit my first instinct was to point out how my first on-camera choice had my keister literally on fire with paranoia, and on the second choice I was merely nursing my 3rd degree burns from the day before. Although I did not actually vote, I was squarely on the side of the wrong choice, and did write, on-camera, that I accept responsibility and consequences as if I were on the vote. But saying this would undermine that magnificent ode to the Goofball that you wrote so beautifully and that I will add to my wiki page the moment this game is over, and I think I'd rather sit on those fresh laurels for a while. They smell sweet and feel like a heavenly cloud.

Basically she seems to be trying to say she isn't smart enough to be such a mastermind. I respectfully disagree. In my opinion I don't think she hammered because we started to pressure her about her non commitment on the whole issue. I think at this point she didn't want to dirty her hands any further and so backed off. Obviously this is simply my opinion on reading the exchange we had and I can't really prove it outside reading her mind. Just the fact she didn't vote at all after all that doesn't really add up for me.

My point was that the chart is a great tool but shouldn't be the basis for a read, just one part of it.

I agree with this.

-Sotty

[sottyrulez]

wow, on stage crew is pissed that I put the stuntman there.

Since I have a feeling I am going to be saying the samething OVER and OVER again in between scenes.

- - - - - - - -

I have said the MANY MANY TIMES....what happens on stage is the most important at this point. I felt that VP was town. I mostly put on stage who I felt was town and would make a good decision in regards choices. I put mostly who I felt were scum or scummy off stage.

- - - - - -
....

So... CKD, what do you think of the Gaspar lynch wagon in light of this?

[sottyrulez]

Who did you consider scummy off stage at the start of the scene CKD?

[sottyrulez]

He should already be lynched.

But 2476... hahahahaha. Man what a post.

[sottyrulez]

I have good reasons to lynch CKD.

1. He claimed scum.

2. He put the stuntman on stage.

If you think he wasn't serious about number 1, then refer to point 2.

How's that?

[sottyrulez]

Talitha, have you seen post 2476?

Or 2477? Or 2478?...

[sottyrulez]

So what? Your scum claim was a trap to catch scum now?

Awesome.

[sottyrulez]

Personally, we would like to be left off stage. We have been on stage for the last two scenes in a row, (Actually didn't expect to be there on scene 5 either.) and will have to be there on scene 7.

I'm not sure why there's so much assertion toward on camera being so much more important than off stage. I personally value them equally.

[sottyrulez]

I would prefer the list as initially posted.

Making a scummy player the stuntman while on camera feels like a recipe for distaster.

[sottyrulez]

Who would you propose replace starkiss onstage then?

I would really prefer that it not be me.

[sottyrulez]

For images? Maybe pictures of numbers if off camera has an opinion of what should be chosen?

I can't think of anything that wouldn't be self explanatory. (I don't see any reason why off camera would want to impose an opinion either.)