Mini 837 - Stratego Mafia! (Game Over!)

[ElectricBadger]

/confirm - thanks for all the work to set this up, Charter!

[ElectricBadger]

Vote Sajin

A bit too eager for role claiming, when that's probably been accounted for in the game, and why bring this all up without being willing to talk about it yet?

[ElectricBadger]

btw just to get on record; dramonic's 35 is the scummiest thing I've seen in the game so far but I needed to get that Kast vote off my chest

Why is it scummy? Is there an inherent reason any particular must be town or mafia? I'm inclined to agree with him, actually - I think revealing all our roles will only give the scum better information to kill us and an excellent opportunity to feed misinformation to lead to mislynches. The entire strategy of the namesake game was in the concealed numbers of the pieces, and I suspect the same situation may exist here.

Unless you have a good reason why certain numbers/ranks would have to be town or mafia?

[ElectricBadger]

I breadcrumbed because I enjoy the mental stimulation of doing so, and I pointed it out because I saw no reason not to. The odds of finding what it means are ridiculously small.

I still really don't understand this. The purpose of breadcrumbing is to leave subtle hints of evidence without drawing NK attention and making yourself a target. By announcing such, you've performed the exact opposite: you highlighted yourself as a power role and failed to deliver any worthwhile information.

This looks like a big scum move to me: quasi-claiming a power role to mislead a doctor or appear to have some authority or knowledge to influence a lynch (possibly a setup for a future fake claim?). Too much deliberate obfuscation here to be a townie doing an investigation - such a nonsensical clue is unlikely to be understood post mortem either.

I'm reading this as bombs=mafia, and Gorrad is one: this sort of claim is sure to draw a cop investigation or doctor protection and get our power roles killed off.

Gorrad's 'breadcrumb' has no benefit at all for town, and a lot of potential gain for mafia. Thus, Gorrad=scum.

Although I really dislike the movements towards role claiming I can see misguided townies trying it, and this feels like solid evidence, so-

Unvote Sajin, Vote Gorrad

[ElectricBadger]

If Gorrad weren't a power role, why breadcrumb? Would a vanilla townie do so? Perhaps you define it differently, but to me breadcrumbs/hints/quasi-role-claim = some sort of power role. So yes, as I understand it he did identify himself as a power role, unlikely to change unless you can tell me what crumbs a vanilla has to leave. He also managed that claim in a way that couldn't be counter-claimed. This reeks of scum to me.

My language? Literally arguing semantics? *Shrugs* Not worth responding to.

The entire and sole purpose of a crumb, in my understanding, is to leave clues of one's knowledge post-mortem. Having one that's clear helps that; "sept. 12th" is too ambiguous to be anything but a fake hint. If, as mentioned above, it's a role claim instead than it's just as bad.

Yes, they are scenarios, and no, no evidence: but if you read my post thoroughly, you'll note that I take that into account, a sort of risk v. gain analysis: I see no scenarios where Gorrad's breadcrumb helps town, and some where it doesn't. If nothing else, it provides confusion and leads (deliberately or not) to misinformation. Thus, for town, it's a bad move, so either that's the case or it's a good move and he's not town; and it seems too deliberate and thought out to me to be a mistake.

I'm curious to hear your own interpretation of how his crumb helps town; your defense of him on all counts is a bit suspicious to me, orto.

[ElectricBadger]

@ElectricBadger-
You don't know what arguing semantics means.

Narf. I do appreciate the humor there.

That is an invalid defense against Ort's post. Answer the points instead of hiding please.

What points? My language was "tentative"? Okay. Yes, it is? Not sure what answer you expect to that. If you feel saying "looks like" makes me scum, there's really nothing I'm going to say to sway you.

Feel free to examine my meta though: a townie post.

The primary purpose of a breadcrumb is to leave behind information that others will not see. You admitted knowledge of this earlier and now are contradicting yourself by claiming otherwise.

I think, as mentioned above, I have a different understanding of a 'breadcrumb' than some of you. Yes, information others will not see until after a player is killed and the evidence is given meaning by their flip. For instance, a cop saying "

I think

so and so is scum" on every suspect except those actually investigated.

Good breadcrumbs are most successfully used to show commitment to a particular roleclaim which aids the player in future if they come under suspicion and are forced to claim. They usually are not valuable post-mortem due to player roles usually revealed on death and players usually not able to include decoding mechanisms in their death reveals.

I wouldn't normally call that a breadcrumb, but if that's what he's doing, then fair enough. I still don't think it's particularly helpful to narrow down which of us are what, but no matter.

You are also being inconsistent in claiming that Gorrad's role will draw pro-town actions but not anti-town actions.

I believe I've been consistent saying the opposite of this; perhaps quote what you're talking about so I can explain?

[ElectricBadger]

Electricbadger, I've breadcrumbed as a variety of roles before. You would be correct if this was not a mini-theme. In a normal game, one would only breadcrumb as a PR, as all the vanillas have the same flavor. However, in theme games vanillas usually have a variety of different flavors. Therefore, breadcrumbing flavor is not a PR-only thing to do.

Need to reconsider a bit. A lot going on in the last couple pages.

But the differing definition of breadcrumb seems to have townie support (unlikely you're all scum), so I'll accept it; and in that case, no, not as obvious a tell as I was thinking.

Unvote

for now.

[ElectricBadger]

@ElectricBadger-
You state that you think Gorrad's "breadcrumb" will draw power townies to target him (doc and cop). If this were true, his breadcrumb should ALSO draw scum to target him. You are inconsistent in ignoring this aspect.

Not sure what you're talking about here, or why I'm inconsistent. Yes,

if

Gorrad were a town power role, and

if he were

leaving a crumb that claims such a role, then he'd be a prime NK target: ergo, it'd be a bad move and a townie wouldn't do it. So no inconsistency there. If he were a scum-bomb drawing attention, or just mafia preparing a fake claim, I'm uncertain how scumbuddies would accidentally stumble into the trap. Could you clarify what you're talking about? It feels like you're just trying to sling mud and see what sticks.

@ElectricBadger-
-Yeah, actually people here like to misuse the term breadcrumb and apply it to unsubtle direct claims (particularly claims of what roles they don't have) that happen early in game. Direct claims like what Gorrad did are not breadcrumbs nor do they function as breadcrumbs.

I can understand the suspicions of others here, but you clearly understand my different definition of a breadcrumb from the start of your very first response. However, you keep leaping into the fray against a target of opportunity with a series of comments that ignore your own knowledge and claim my comments as scum-tell. Spreading accusations where you know none are due warrants my

Vote: Kast.

[ElectricBadger]

Badger would you mind explaining to us the relevance of that post you linked to in a town game of yours in 86. I don't see it.

Just noting that tentative language - "I think" and such - is my norm. If you don't see anything there that backs that up, ignore it. Personally I think the claim that saying "looks like" is a scum tell is ridiculous anyways, which is why I keep trying to let the silly thread die.

[ElectricBadger]

-Consistency please. You claim that if Gorrad is a townie who made a breadcrumb of a PR and publicly drew attention to it, then you claim that a doctor would protect him. You also claim that scum would try to kill him. This is a win for town.

No it's not, and this is a ridiculous assertion. Otherwise cops would always claim. Again with the accusations that make you sound even scummier.

-Current situation is not what you are assuming. Gorrad has not breadcrumbed a PR. Gorrad has directly claimed to be not Bomb/Flag/Spy.

Hyup. My assumption of the meaning of 'breadcrumb' was wrong; we've been over that. So far every claim that I'm scum goes back to that. You validated my definition yourself, though, so it's kind of strange to keep listing the conclusions I made with that definition as scum tells.

I'm still not thrilled with Gorrad's limited claim, but the worst of my suspicions have been withdrawn.

-Applying your crap-logic to yourself; you have claimed to be a PR and further claimed that your role makes you believe everyone is a PR; townies wouldn't do this; you are not a townie.

Ignoring that crap logic, you made a completely unprompted claim that, if you are town, helps scum with their night targeting and assessment about the game setup.

I did what now? When did I claim a PR? If you saw a tell for one, why would you point it out?

-Your penchant for throwing out mafia jargon that you don't understand is not an example of other people acting without knowledge. It is an example of your own ignorance and only serves to create confusion.

I don't understand all the definitions of the terms used here, no. Is that a scum tell?

-Context is important. I agreed with you that what Gorrad did (claiming non Bomb/Flag/Spy) is not equivalent to breadcrumbing. I then explained why you calling Gorrad scummy for the "breadcrumb" makes no sense. How about addressing arguments made instead of hiding behind jargon you don't understand?

What argument have I not addressed? I'm responding copiously to your posts, I would think.

The overall argument, to my understanding, is that I am scummy for accusing Gorrad of claiming a power role; my response is that my understanding of a breadcrumb is a clue left by a power role, aka someone who can determine without error who is guilty or not (a cop, a doc who learns of a successful save, etc) to be found in case they are NK'd. You can counter my logic

taking into account my understanding of the term

, which no one has; or you can accuse me of faking my ignorance, which no one has. Not sure how saying my conclusions based on another definition are wrong really contributes to finding scum.

[ElectricBadger]

-YOU said cops and docs will target a breadcrumbed PR. YOU said scum will NK a breadcrumbed PR. If things go according to how you claim, then it is good for a single townie PR to claim. I say your assumptions are BS (which you apparently agree with).

Do I honestly need to explain the flaws in this argument? Yes, a self-declared PR is more likely to be the target of all of these. No, that's not a good thing. If you need more help on this sort of WIFOM situation, read the wiki.

How does pointing out that your argument is crap show that I am scummy? Are you suggesting that townies should accept crap-logic?

Nope. My initial argument was wrong - and you pointed out that I had a different definition for breadcrumbs than Gorrad. That's fine - that's appreciated, actually, as I don't want to accuse players based on a misunderstanding. But you keep pushing that my conclusions based on that understanding are scum tells - arguments like the first quote here. Trying very very hard to make scum appear where it isn't is very scummy.

-You have posted multiple crap-logic cases, repeatedly take statements out of context, and repeatedly present inconsistent arguments. All of these are scummy tools which you have employed to try and push wagons without providing any reasons why the specific target is actually scummy, Now you are just OMGUSing and still not trying to find scum.

Inconsistent is your buzzword, isn't it? And wrong; I've been very consistent. You just disagree with my logic, which you seem not to understand.

I am amazed that in 10 posts I've managed to push multiple wagons then move to not trying to find scum at all. And yeah - my first couple posts were light on hard evidence; not really shocking for the first couple pages of a game, where the goal is largely just to get people talking. As for OMGUS, yes; but scum is where scum is, and so far you're the worst. Not a good time to hunt around for scum when it keeps arriving on my doorstep demanding a response.

[ElectricBadger]

You have literally responded to almost every question/point with a question and a serious lack of content.

I've answered every question I could, actually - the two questions above are for:

1) Stating I did something I didn't do, which Kast clarified as a mistake on his part. Not sure what other response would be suitable to being told I claimed a PR when I hadn't. Since there's nothing to base his comment on, I'm inclined to see it as an honest mistake.

2) Asking for clarification on a vague statement that was grossly in error and should have been backed up by evidence. And btw, was requesting a solid question to give an answer to - in the face of your claim of lack of content. You may not agree with me, but content is not my weakness.

As for the statements you quoted:

1) Also contained an example why it was a ridiculous assertion. Also common knowledge: I don't think there's a good purpose to arguing theory about why D1 cop or doc claims are foolish.

2) Is about as plain a response as I can make: told I was getting terms wrong, I agreed that I don't know them all and have tried to decrease my use of lingo since. Not really much else to say on the point.

ElectricBadger, this question is for you. Do you agree or disagree with this statement: "Scumhunting day one is pointless because there is no evidence to go on" ?

No, obviously. Scum hunting day one requires questions and interaction to create the evidence to go on.

So your poor choice of examples aside (which read like you skimmed my posts and abridged them to match your accusation), yes, I do ask lots of questions. When people are wrong, I ask them to cite evidence. Town usually point out something I missed or back off because they realize they were wrong; scum usually just keep stating their argument without evidence, because they knew already there was none. Question for you: Do you feel asking responses of other players helps town or scum more?

[ElectricBadger]

EB POSITION:
-Cops and docs AUTOMATICALLY target breadcrumbed PR.
-Mafia AUTOMATICALLY targets breadcrumbed PR.
-Gorrad breadcrumbed a PR.
--If Gorrad is scum, then he will be targetted by cops and docs and will kill them because he is a bomb.
--If Gorrad is a townie, then he will be targetted by mafia but NOT by cops and docs.

My actual comment (interesting that no one else is citing it verbatim):

I'm reading this as bombs=mafia, and Gorrad is one: this sort of claim is sure to draw a cop investigation or doctor protection and get our power roles killed off.

You're really insisting my possible situation states neither our PRs nor scum have any free will in their choice? I don't see it. And where do I say PRs wouldn't target townie-Gorrad? I just say it wouldn't end well, which is why cops don't normally claim day 1.

-Agreed that we can scumhunt on D1 even when there is little evidence. Asking questions is good and pressing your suspects to answer questions is a great way to help determine if they are scum. You don't seem interested in doing that.

I've been interacting with you, Gorrad, Ortolan, Sajin and Synx. For five pages into the game I don't think that's half bad, personally, and I only have so much time to post here.

It may not seem like it to you, but I'm very much scum hunting. I think seeing who jumps on my bandwagon with unoriginal and badly substantiated evidence is the best tell I can find. It's more than likely to be used to lynch scum over my dead corpse, but it's very possible that's the best contribution I can give to town this game.

[ElectricBadger]

Inconsistently, you assume that a townie breadcrumbing a PR will ONLY draw mafia.

Again you fail to cite such a comment as requested, because none exists.

If you assumed that it would draw a doctor protection, then it would be a good result for town.

Nope. My experience with early cop claims (well, early obvious tell, haven't played with any cop that claimed D1 yet, don't expect to either) and a doctor is that scum ignore the cop, hunt around and kill the doc, then kill the cop next round. They may miss a kill if they take a chance at the cop or the doc takes a risk, but they'll hone right in on the power roles: linking known PR's is much easier, just as linking scum is once one is known. PR's dead early in the game is a bad thing.

Also, you're assuming there MUST be a doctor. I didn't really want to go into setup discussion, but I'll note there's no piece that even vaguely corresponds to a protector/doctor, so there's not any assurance we have one. The scout is almost certainly a cop, though.

If you think a D1 cop claim is good for town, why do you think our cop isn't claiming? Do you think they should?

My point does not require that you used the word automatically. You state clearly that you think that would happen. If you want to get nitpicky, your wording is that cops and docs will target him without any uncertainty.

If I wanted to get nitpicky, I would say "this sort of claim is sure to draw a cop investigation or doctor protection" (quotes ftw!). I don't think a speculative read has as much certainty to it as you keep insisting, but okay. Yes, I think that if someone claimed a PR and survived throughout most/all of the game, they would be targetted by another PR at some point. I think that would happen. Is that such a huge leap of the imagination, or a certain scum tell? Were I a cop who wasn't thinking about the possibility of a scum-bomb, it would likely be my first investigation, so I knew whether to trust their information and effectively double my own investigations.

Ultimately, I think this conversation is stupid. We're arguing our opinions of what would happen in a theoretical game that isn't this one. Feel free to have the last word, but I'm done talking about it. There's no tell; your accusations are misleading and unfounded; and your insistence on pushing something so minor without evidence and in the face of rationality is duly noted. If you want to vote me because I think a vague D1 PR claim is scummy, go ahead. I don't think I'm going to convince you because I don't think you really care: you're scum trying to get a lynch, and your scumbuddies and nervous town are willing to jump on a bandwagon that isn't them.

Also, interacting with other players is not equivalent to scumhunting.

What, pray tell, fits your personal definition of scum hunting? Ignoring five players' questions to talk about an unrelated topic? I started to investigate Gorrad to see what would come out; you did, unexpectedly, so I've turned my attention to that. I'm actually not very impressed with your scum hunting either; you're just repeating the same misinformation over and over until someone believes you while ignoring my response.

[ElectricBadger]

At least one

of the players not voting currently is guaranteed to be scum.

Gauranteed is a very bold statement; please explain your theory.

I don't like him pulling the "resigned" persona saying "my only contribution may very well be calling out the scum on my wagon"; then in his last post just reiterating that Kast is scum without trying to analyse the other players voting him- he just says "your scumbuddies and nervous town are willing to jump on a bandwagon that isn't them."

Oh no, not resigned at all; much the opposite: I still think I have potential to do a lot for town. But dying early doesn't have to mean failing. And yes, iso'ing each person involved in the wagon is very much on my to-do list before the end of the day; one reason I decided to cease the theoretical he-said-she-said and move on to doing more productive things with my time.

[ElectricBadger]

@EB, what do you have the most problems with: that Gorrad breadcrumbed, that Gorrad pointed out that he breadcrumbed, or that he said he wasn't flag, bomb, or spy?

Now I understand what Gorrad meant by Breadcrumb, it doesn't bother me much (tho I don't see it as useful).

I dislike the anti-claim, for the same reason I dislike unprompted townie claims - it narrows down the field for the scum to hone in on PRs. And if we do have a flag, I suspect we want to protect it.

[ElectricBadger]

You do understand why he's is almost completely confirmed, yes?

Gorrad's not on my scum list, but I can't see any reason to confirm him as town, no.

In case I'm being dense again, mind explaining your reasoning?

[ElectricBadger]

The fact you miss something so obvious strongly hints you DON'T have a number, from there you are either bomb or flag. Oh look, roles that in general consensus, are mafia.

This is weak. Very weak. I think the theory that numbers v. non-numbered is the arbitrary boundary between scum and town is razor thin, personally (it makes no sense for the marshal to be town when he can kill nearly any other unit, for instance). It's certainly not a proof.

Furthermore, you know this:

Yeah, Hoopla, and I'd be a bloody IDIOT if I claimed Spy, Bomb, or Flag.

What's to say Spy, Bomb or Flag aren't town roles? You're pretty well informed for a town role.

FOS:Gorrad

Explain the complete change in opinion or earn a vote, please.

[ElectricBadger]

(additionally there is another reason why your conclusion about the setup is pretty much guaranteed to be wrong, but I'm not going into it because I don't see it as pro-town to do so.)

Then why even mention this?

There is a clear difference, dramonic...but there's an even larger difference between "What's to say A, B and C aren't town?" and "A, B and C are definitely mafia." I'm asking what led you to that conclusion, because there's clearly a change in opinion. As for the consensus, I'm not seeing it, nor am I part of it - and if 'other people are saying it' is your proof, you're definitely trying harder to fit in than to scumhunt.

[ElectricBadger]

I believe the mafia is not numbered, I don't know it.

Then why would having a number prove Gorrad is town?

[ElectricBadger]

That's not a proof, or even solid evidence; it's a theory, which isn't useless but is far short of what you claimed. I can't think of a townie reason for the misrepresentation; you were either buddying up to Gorrad or trying to protect a scumbuddy.

An ISO shows you've done no scumhunting today; you've coasted, trying to stay below the radar by agreeing with others without helping town. Your 'consensus' reference is solid proof of this.

Finally, your bevy of posts on identifying the setup reads as hunting for something specific (a town flag? PRs?) and outright rolefishing. The many contradictions in your posts lead me to-

Unvote Kast, Vote Dramonic

This places you at L-1; please claim.

[ElectricBadger]

The sudden jumping of multiple people onto his wagon is probably an effort by mafia to keep EB from swinging.

UNVOTE, Vote: AlmasterGM

Interesting that you follow that statement by voting for someone NOT on the wagon. Reads more like avoiding the wagon - and possibly bussing - than real scum hunting.

So I'm scum, GM is scum, and the wagon was formed by scum - who do you think was the mafia who rushed to my rescue?

[ElectricBadger]

Argh. I hate to say it but frustratingly I think dramonic's town.

What led to the change in opinion?

[ElectricBadger]

Hmm. I have my own theory about the setup, and 8 is not a number I expected to be mafia.

But having a hard time resolving the Gorrad 'proof' as town. And charter may have made the setup more random than I expected.

[ElectricBadger]

Well, the moment we hit scum we'll have a better idea about if the split is army/other or arbitrary. In the meantime, I think we are better off leaving Gorrad alive.

Clearly doesn't get why the 'proof' makes himself scummy; dramonic may have hit a valid reason I didn't think of - innocent obliviousness. That, or this is a brilliant ploy, but that doesn't match with the rest of the day's posts.

I'm still thinking an 8 doesn't sound like mafia unless the setup is completely random. Also, although I dislike too much speculation until we know if we want to protect the flag or take it, I will point out one thing for later: assuming all ranks are represented, a mass claim WILL net 1 mafia: the engineer and bomb can't be on the same side.

Unvote

Sajin and ortolan's moves are either pure scum or pure town. Neither has been on my scumdar, though, nor do I think either would take such a risk at this point if they were scum. So barring further evidence I'm thinking this implies town.

Dramonic is just a useless player in my view

This comment and the conversation it spawned is even more useless. Pot, meet kettle, then move on to finding mafia.

Have to ponder the Kast/AlmasterGM situation. Both top my scum list, but increasingly not together. Will be back with a vote later.

[ElectricBadger]

Vote AlmasterGM

DDD = town

Um, why?

Valid question, though.

[ElectricBadger]

Electricbadger's (197) sucks. The way he gets his vote off dramonic is well scummy. You don't think 8 is going to be mafia? You shouldn't have put him at L-1 and fished for a claim if you were going to jump off that easily.

That easily? My vote certainly didn't stop a hammer. I waited two days to withdraw it, at which point the wagon was L-3 with no indication at all of any motion forward. Helping to break the stasis to allow further investigation seemed logical.

Your tunneling on dramonic and continued bullying are suspect, however. You aren't making any further case against him or refuting any arguments as to his towniness - you're just outraged at being denied a lynch. Why so eager for his blood? Why no response to the content of the unvotes? If dramonic is town, you stand out as a circling shark.

[ElectricBadger]

Hoopla, do you think dramonic is scum or townie?

[ElectricBadger]

I'm going to hold my vote where it is. I don't think any progress is really being made right now. We should have a better chance on Day 2 when we have a vague idea of how this game works.

Are you saying we should No Lynch?

My most likely scum-team is Kast, Hoops and Synx.

This seems like a good starting scum list imo. Though I might swap in AlmasterGM. Tried to use my vote to give Kast some momentum on that wagon to see if he ran with it - but instead he went silent, so less convinced they can't be scum together now.

wagon with 2 votes (which there seem to be too much of).

Agreed.

Sajin's vote jump reads town to me; silly for mafia to jump off a townie mislynch and risk destroying it, particularly when they weren't a big pusher for the wagon, and suicidal to do that on a scum lynch. I'm not thrilled with all his posts - way too much setup speculation and eagerness to claim for my comfort - but I'm not ready to vote him yet.

Synx has coasted without any real content and simply followed bandwagons without original analysis. Of the potential bandwagons atm, his seems best.

Unvote Almaster, Vote Synx

[ElectricBadger]

So basically, Kast, you're absolving yourself of all responsibility for a townie lynch despite the fact that your vote - or even just scumhunting - could sway the result away from it?

Classic scum shield, although most are more subtle about it.

If you don't know if either of the leading wagons are scum, I suggest you do some investigating. If you think both are town, I suggest you say why.

[ElectricBadger]

Day one final vote count

Vote Count

dramonic - 3 (Synx, Gorrad, WeyounsLastClone)
AlmasterGM - 1 (

Kast

)
Synx - 2 (ElectricBadger,

Sajin

)

Sajin

- 6 (Hoopla, Vaya, dramonic,

Debonair Danny DiPietro

, AlmasterGM, ortolan)

Not Voting

Vote Almaster

- of my suspects yesterday he seems in the worst position, voted by town who was NK'd and voting on a mislynch.

[ElectricBadger]

That is if we believe your role. What exactly is it again? You only said Miner and 3 last time.

^This. What exactly is your effect?

[ElectricBadger]

Not terribly much to say. I'm a bit flustered by the shift in the last day from no votes but mine to L-1 on synx, but he's lying scum and I'd support a lynch anyways (not shifting my vote yet as I want to hear any final words).

Also disliking Almaster's general snark with a lack of scumhunting, nor his repeated answering for Synx.

[ElectricBadger]

You dismissed any conclusions based on Synx's responses before they were made, which is both nonsensical and completely unhelpful for town in any way. While your assumptions may prove true, I see no reason that town would dismiss any hope for evidence so readily. On the other hand, I think how a question is answered can be as much evidence as the factual statement itself.

Your rebuttal to my earlier comment was the assertion that as scum you wouldn't act like scum. I felt no need to remark on it, but I think my continued vote was indeed a response.

[ElectricBadger]

Synx sounds very much like a botched fake claim; more like a scum miner who doesn't know what the bomb's role says, though, than a bomb fake claiming (so far it seems that each rank is assigned, so that would invite a counter claim).

[ElectricBadger]

(so far it seems that each rank is assigned, so that would invite a counter claim).

I'm not sure if this is an appropriate time to say this, but I don't see the harm, so I'm going to go ahead and do it anyway. This is NOT TRUE. I share the numerical rank of one of the deceased. Given that there are 12 players in the game and 12 pieces in Stratego (2-10, S, B, F), this means that at least one (possibly more) of the pieces from the board game does not exist in this game. It also means we cannot use number claims/counterclaims to exonerate and implicate people.

That doesn't change my premise, though. Claiming a fake role seems like a bad move. If there were another miner, for instance, they would be able to tell quickly whether the role matched their own.

[ElectricBadger]

I share the numerical rank of one of the deceased.

Spy had no numerical rank, so no. Others were both vanilla, although Almaster's phrasing seems to imply he's not (or at least leaves the possibility open). I'm inclined to think this is misinformation to prevent town from counterclaiming as long as he's alive, as I can't see his eagerness to identify his rank serving any other purpose at the moment.

[ElectricBadger]

I would prefer a Synx to an Almaster lynch substantially.

Then why no vote?

Hoops seems to be lurking.

Yup. And she's still on my naughty list.

What do people think of Vaya? I actually get pretty scummy vibes after re-reading him.

Not thrilled with everything he's done, but he reads town to me so far. What stands out?

[ElectricBadger]

Meh. Day's gone on long enough, I think the case on Synx is good, I don't believe his role claim and we've already had two L-1 situations on Synx that have revealed anything we're going to learn. For these reasons and to prevent another of our weird lynch-flinches,

Unvote Almaster, Vote Synx

[ElectricBadger]

Knowing his vote would put either wagon at L-1, why would scum Hoopla choose to vote scum Synx rather than Almaster? Although I don't like some things Hoop did - especially his reaction to the lynch flinch on dramonic now we know he was town - it seems like a bad time to buss a buddy.

[ElectricBadger]

I'm looking squarely at those that weren't on the Synx lynch, and possibly EB for being the hammer vote.

I'm confused, Hoops. You've called out dramonic for posting suspicion and not voting; you've called out the first dramonic wagon for putting him at L-1 and not lynching; and you've called me out for hammering a third time L-1.

What vote, precisely, ISN'T a scum tell for you?

[ElectricBadger]

What does the town think about a massclaim? We've got one, maybe two people left to out, so the advantage is with us. Considering Synx's claim, I'm guessing scum were not given fakeclaims.

What roles or numbers are we expecting to be scum? If we don't know what to do with our results, this seems unhelpful, particularly if we have a vig and out him.

[ElectricBadger]

I'm not in favor of any claim. I see no benefit for town, therefore I think it can only harm us. It's more likely to introduce speculation, assumption and distraction than real results. But I have no SPECIFIC issue, so I'll go along with this if necessary.

Starting with Hoopla, Vaya, and Almaster.

However, this would be my requirement.

[ElectricBadger]

I have no number.

*Awaits Gorrad's analysis*

[ElectricBadger]

And Sajin, I have no intention of claiming today, as I have yet to see why my vote is justified. But, in case it helps, my breadcrumb for my role is Sept. 12th.

Explain this.

[ElectricBadger]

Vote Gorrad.

I am the bomb, and am town, as bombs normally are. My role states miners are immune to the effects, so it makes little sense to specify it to one miner and not to another.

My D1 speculation of you as a scum bomb was, of course, for the sole purpose of implying I had no knowledge of the bomb myself - hoping to make mafia assume I was the one 'safe' target.

Your claim is weak, and even if true your actions are timed perfectly to take pressure off Hoops, whom you clearly think is scum; I see no town reason to divert a lynch from scum and reroute it towards the one player that town wants to be night killed.

[ElectricBadger]

I have no night action, and thus no night targets. I am a regular bomb; btw, this also means that no one with night actions has targeted me during the game (feel free to counterclaim).

[ElectricBadger]

I'm so confused right now.

This. I need to do a serious re-read of this whole business, which won't happen until this weekend, but so far this looks like Gorrad made a horrible blunder of a scum gambit to out the bomb and mislynch, and is now pushing it in the face of all counter claims.

I'm just unsure why he tried it.

[ElectricBadger]

One thought - Gorrad, having identified me as the bomb, why didn't you pursue another possible scum suspect and target me during the night? That would have given town the best chance of dead scum, rather than initiating a counterclaim and using the lynch on me.

[ElectricBadger]

Hoopla: Anyone who targets me with a night action dies, unless they are a miner.

Almaster: Why would scum Hoopla claim the kills Gorrad assigned to me?

[ElectricBadger]

Very sorry for the low post rate lately. 14 hour days at work, plus school, loses. I should be more with it from here on.

I think Hoopla is the worst lynch today, because he's the easiest to prove/disprove without costing anyone else's action. Hoops - so far, the group seems intent upon killing you today, yes? I *think* you're town...but I can see this as a desperate SK play to earn town cred.

Would you agree to target yourself tonight, if we passed you for the lynch? This avoids our having to spend a lynch on you today: we could target someone else likely to be scum. If you don't suicide, we kill you tomorrow, and town still wins. If you do, and we miss scum today, we have one more chance tomorrow, with 3 less players.

That means 2 town and 1 scum, and 4 of the 6 of us dead, which is excellent odds for finding our baddie.

This all, of course, assumes 3 scum total. Otherwise we're pretty well screwed, but I don't expect that.

[ElectricBadger]

I'm still not seeing Hoop's claim as a good SK move. Allowing Gorrad to move ahead against me would have cost us a kill, and the backlash on Gorrad for targetting me would have given Hoops a very good chance of avoiding a lynch himself.

And I'm still not sold on Gorrad as town. I see mafia faking a role to out and kill a bomb - a major danger to NK's - as more likely than a town bomb and town miner. I think he assumed the Vig kills were an SK, and as he speculated in public assumed the bomb was the SK. Had this been successful, he would have been cemented as town; if not, as is happening now he could still duck behind the role. I think a real miner would have waited until night to target me, not tried to maneuver a gambit into a lynch.

[ElectricBadger]

You're assuming his role claim is correct. I don't think it is.

[ElectricBadger]

Nope; I was deliberately avoiding the question earlier, when there was a wagon on me, since Gorrad's willingness to step up might have helped confirm or deny his claim. My role mentions nothing about hammers; it only specifies that anyone who targets me with a night action will be killed, unless they're a miner.

Unfortunately, the specific wording of my role doesn't seem to imply either single or multiple miners.

I'm just not seeing a town role whose only purpose is to vanillify or kill a fellow townie.

[ElectricBadger]

You're assuming his role claim is correct. I don't think it is.

It'd be stupid to have a scumteam consisting of two miners and a goon

Yes. It's nonsensical to have 2 mafia miners; and nonsensical to have a townie whose only purpose is to counter another townie and help scum. A miner would have also chosen to target me at night rather than try to lynch me. Ergo, Gorrad is not a miner.

[ElectricBadger]

Mafia risking a counterclaim to save the one player they can't NK, who may be the SK or a vig, makes no sense at all.

[ElectricBadger]

Nice playing with ya Hoops. Hope to catch you in another game!

[ElectricBadger]

Not much to say today:

Vote: No Lynch

[ElectricBadger]

SK?

Mafia roleblocker makes good sense, actually: 2 goons and a miner is very low powered for the number of town roles. Targeting the cop also makes sense.

However, yes, Almaster does seem to be the least helpful claimed cop ever....

[ElectricBadger]

Lynching today would be silly.

*pokes Vaya with a stick* Wake up!

[ElectricBadger]

Why would we want to identify who's least suspicious today?

[ElectricBadger]

Either today or tomorrow we need all town in agreement to kill scum. Waiting a day can only increase our odds. There's nothing to be lost.

[ElectricBadger]

Why would we decide today? That just informs the scum exactly who not to kill. At least make them guess a little.

[ElectricBadger]

Speaking of which ... where IS Vaya?

This I can agree with.

@Charter - Please prod Vaya; hasn't posted yet today.

[ElectricBadger]

Sigh. Was trying not to have to state this explicitly, but it seems I have to -

I was not disarmed last night.

/confirm No Lynch.

[ElectricBadger]

Why wouldn't I be? It seems weird that I would lose my role without my knowledge.

In any case, options:
I'm disarmed and NK'd - we're no worse off.
I'm not disarmed and NK'd - town wins.
Someone else is NK'd - one less suspect. Unless the scum has serious balls, this is the most likely outcome.

There's no downside to waiting, and it may give us some benefit.

[ElectricBadger]

I maintain my no lynch vote. Unless EB changes his mind, we're going into D5.

Not unless I hear a reason that we'll be better off. So far I've heard none, and Almaster is the only one acting like town today. Somebody else go No Lynch, if I die tonight it only takes two posts to lynch almaster tomorrow - which is less than it takes to keep debating this.

[ElectricBadger]

Fine.

But tomorrow, I /totally/ told you so.

*Eats yummy yummy crow*

Vote Almaster

[ElectricBadger]

I re-read, yeah.

If you think it's Vaya, state your case. I'm not seeing much, other than lurking, and you haven't voiced suspicions until she was among the last players standing.

As for you...I've had suspicions for a while. And you're the nexus of too many troubling coincidences. A unique town-town pairing (when there's a number unclaimed) and the first to claim it (and eagerly), a potentially overpowered role that has managed to provide no assistance at all, and I can't entirely ignore the conclusions of confirmed townies.

[ElectricBadger]

/unvote

Although I imagine he'd have killed you by now if he were on; no reason to wait.

[ElectricBadger]

The number/role theory is indicative - you'd be the only town-town pair, you're the only possibility of having a 6, which would otherwise be the only missing number, Vaya would be the only unique numbered scum and frankly I think you're a better player than failing to help town with every investigation.

There is also a fair amount of evidence against you. You did some lurking as well, and I still really don't like your play during the Synx lynch, as well as a couple other places. Since D1 you've been among the top of my suspects.

Either way this works out, I think the Vaya situation indicates a need to out lurkers better in the future, but other than his play yesterday there's no particular evidence. And of he and Gorrad yesterday, Gorrad was the one most anti-town.

Vote Almaster

Good game, all.

[ElectricBadger]

Very good game, and yeah - awesome that no one dropped!

Thanks much for the great modding charter, you're really on top of stuff (and also thanks again for the help with other stuff).

Hurts to lose to lurker-scum though, have to say. Between that and the last NK, I was seriously considering Vaya for a bit. I finally decided it would just be my irritation showing through though.... All in all, well played on the part of the scum this game. I never suspected WLC either.

[ElectricBadger]

The lack of information led to many misinterpretations, and was an issue for me. Being defused without either me or the miner knowing is rough. It would be good to at least hint at the numbers rule (a different message? "so and so resisted your effort" rather than just failing?). I still feel a town miner with a town bomb is a strange combo.

Properly spelling Defuse *Grins*

[ElectricBadger]

I was also extremely annoyed the last two days when the town decided that outguessing the mod was a sound scum hunting technique. I know I was dead like four days before that, but I thought I'd made it clear that trying to pick apart the setup like that was going to fail and fail hard.

I didn't view the numbers/role discussion as anything more than I stated - indicative. And you have to admit, at the end it DID violate every pattern. The biggest part to me was role; a cop is a solid scum fake-claim, and he seemed really eager to declare his number (as proof that same numbers didn't indicate scum, which seemed disproven later) and hint at his role before anyone else did, which seemed to me distinctly NOT like a cop who had no good investigations.

The main reason I took Almaster out was our D1 interactions and his repeatedly speaking for Synx during that lynch.