Mini 837 - Stratego Mafia! (Game Over!)


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Post Post #50 (ISO) » Sun Aug 23, 2009 4:32 am

Post by charter »

Vote Count

Hoopla - 1 (dramonic)
Gorrad - 2 (Gorrad, Sajin)
Sajin - 1 (ElectricBadger)
dramonic - 3 (ortolan, Vaya, Hoopla)

Not Voting

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Deadline is September 12, midnight.
Last edited by charter on Mon Aug 24, 2009 5:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #51 (ISO) » Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:05 am

Post by dramonic »

IT's a random vote, you don't need a case for that. I'm waiting for Gorrad to answer post 35 before I vote him.
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Post Post #52 (ISO) » Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:31 am

Post by Vaya »

My point was that you don't seem to have too much of a problem with voting in general. Why not then place your vote on the person you find most suspicious? You don't necessarily need a solid case to place a vote on someone.
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Post Post #53 (ISO) » Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:42 am

Post by AlmasterGM »

Hoopla wrote:Does anyone think it's worthwhile talking about the set-up at this stage? If anyone here isn't familiar with the rankings, definitely check it out now. I have a few thoughts about the way roles could possibly interact and what we could expect, but if others deem it a moot topic, then we can skip it and just go straight to lynching scum.
Synx wrote:No, this is super scummy, let's focus on scumhunting instead of setup analysis at this point.
Why is this super scummy? This is a game of the informed versus the uninformed. Unless this game has an extremely twisted setup where the mafia doesn't want to kill the town, the mafia already knows its objective, so discussing it further isn't helping them at all. Moreover, in a game such as stratego, where victory centers around a single piece that can be captured even if the odds are stacked against you, it is highly beneficial for us to try and determine what powers the mafia may have.
dramonic wrote:What's to say Spy, Bomb or Flag aren't town roles? You're pretty well informed for a town role.
If you've ever played stratego, it wouldn't make much logical sense if those three roles were pro-town for a couple of reasons.

First, there has to be some non-arbitrary deliniation between town and mafia. Simply saying something like "the Colonol is scum and the Major is town" makes no sense. It is thus highly likely that these three pieces, which are distinctly separate from the rest, are anti-town.

Second, the bomb don't sound pro-town, it sound anti-town. It kills everything and hinders your own movement.

Finally, capturing the flag is victory in stratego. This cannot be the win-condition for the mafia - it's too easy. What if we accidentally lynch the flag round one or the mafia get a lucky NK? Is it just game over, too bad? I don't think so, and the only other alternative is that the flag has tons of protective powers around it, which seems overly complicated. It's more likely that the flag is a target for the town, not something we want to protect.
Sajin wrote:I am still not going to out my case on you until scum can no longer nighttalk. Sorry. You should also wait on claiming till then. It probably involves me claiming as well.
I don't see why everyone is making such a big deal about this. So he wants to wait 72 hours. Fine. We hear the case in 72 hours. Now, if that time passes and this case has suddenly evaporated but the bandwagon is still rolling, that's a different issue. Although, Sajin, I'm a little confused why you didn't just wait the 72 hours in the first place instead of throwing the comment out there.
ortolan wrote:btw just to get on record; dramonic's 35 is the scummiest thing I've seen in the game so far but I needed to get that Kast vote off my chest
Why?
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Post Post #54 (ISO) » Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:59 am

Post by Vaya »

Almaster brings up an interesting point on why the spy, bomb and flag could be the mafia, and it makes me wonder about Gorrad's "it would be silly to claim spy, bomb, or flag" comment. Gorrad, can you explain why you think it would be silly to claim these roles?
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Post Post #55 (ISO) » Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:38 am

Post by dramonic »

Well, my vision of the bomb was that it was, well, a bomb. And that's a protown role.
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Post Post #56 (ISO) » Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:41 am

Post by Synx »

AlmasterGM wrote: Why is this super scummy? This is a game of the informed versus the uninformed. Unless this game has an extremely twisted setup where the mafia doesn't want to kill the town, the mafia already knows its objective, so discussing it further isn't helping them at all. Moreover, in a game such as stratego, where victory centers around a single piece that can be captured even if the odds are stacked against you, it is highly beneficial for us to try and determine what powers the mafia may have.
A few reasons. In general, I feel that discussing the setup on day one instead of scumhunting is a scumtell. I also feel that it only hurts the town by giving the mafia more information regarding the setup -- they presumably don't know it anymore than we do.
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Post Post #57 (ISO) » Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:48 am

Post by Vaya »

dramonic wrote:Well, my vision of the bomb was that it was, well, a bomb. And that's a protown role.
I know the bomb is usually a protown role, but there's no reason that it couldn't work as a scum role. It would make sense, the three distinct, numberless pieces being the three Mafia.
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Post Post #58 (ISO) » Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:55 am

Post by dramonic »

my spy is still numbered though.

Well, setup speculation won't get us anywhere really.
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Post Post #59 (ISO) » Sun Aug 23, 2009 8:55 am

Post by WeyounsLastClone »

I think there's not much we can deduct right now regarding roles. For all we know both town and scum have a bomb. Or a flag.

Vote: Gorrad.

1) I extremely dislike when people start voting themselves.
2) Why would you mention a breadcrumb this early in the game? Why?
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Post Post #60 (ISO) » Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:06 am

Post by ortolan »

Personally I don't see setup discussion being helpful at this stage, at all. I'm sure things will start to make sense when we wagon someone/people to a claim etc. if they aren't already.

Almaster: I said why dramonic's post was scummy in 42.

I still find dramonic suspicious due to his fence-sitting.
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Post Post #61 (ISO) » Sun Aug 23, 2009 1:19 pm

Post by Hoopla »

dramonic wrote:I'm not a fan of quick early-wagons and I don't have a decent case (since I can't find scum before post 13 of a game). I'm not going to vote without at least the latter <<
I find it odd you'd make this statement when your wagon only had two votes on it. Why didn't you express similar concern for the two vote wagon on Gorrad? What was the purpose for stating you don't like early bandwagons?
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Post Post #62 (ISO) » Sun Aug 23, 2009 2:41 pm

Post by dramonic »

because people were voting me for not voting Gorrad.
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Post Post #63 (ISO) » Sun Aug 23, 2009 3:09 pm

Post by Hoopla »

dramonic wrote:because people were voting me for not voting Gorrad.
Would you suggest their votes would better serve on a random person?
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Post Post #64 (ISO) » Sun Aug 23, 2009 3:13 pm

Post by dramonic »

No, I'd suggest their vote would be better off on hiatus until we can see what the devil is that oh so mighty case Sajin has on Gorrad and vote accordingly.
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Post Post #65 (ISO) » Sun Aug 23, 2009 3:21 pm

Post by Hoopla »

dramonic wrote:No, I'd suggest their vote would be better off on hiatus until we can see what the devil is that oh so mighty case Sajin has on Gorrad and vote accordingly.
Why should the game stall for someone posting garbage? There was no N0, scum are the one's that have information. I suspect it was done just for the sake of conversation, and if that's true we'll get better conversation from wagonning players. It's a nice bonus that you're looking like flustered scum.
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Post Post #66 (ISO) » Sun Aug 23, 2009 3:27 pm

Post by dramonic »

I'm not exactly flustered, nor am I scum <_<

This is a groundless accusation you are making.
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Post Post #67 (ISO) » Sun Aug 23, 2009 3:45 pm

Post by Vaya »

dramonic wrote:No, I'd suggest their vote would be better off on hiatus until we can see what the devil is that oh so mighty case Sajin has on Gorrad and vote accordingly.
This statement doesn't make any sense to me. What does Sajin's case have to do with a bandwagon on an unrelated person? Why would a wagon be okay after Sajin makes his case? I don't see why just two or three seems to bother you anyway.
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Post Post #68 (ISO) » Sun Aug 23, 2009 3:54 pm

Post by dramonic »

I've played in a game were someone got hammered before 48 hours had passed since the beginning. I'm not big on early wagons. Odds are I won't be voting before a few pages in (and 3 is not enough)
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Post Post #69 (ISO) » Sun Aug 23, 2009 4:06 pm

Post by Kast »

@AlmasterGM-
-Your initial point starts off assuming the game will play similar to a Stratego game and therefore it would be helpful to speculate on powers scum may have, but your second point departs from this and argues that this game cannot be similar to a Stratego game. I don't like this inconsistency.

-You aren't directly addressing the point that you quote. Setup speculation at the expense of "regular" scumhunting is detrimental to the town. This is true regardless of whether the game theme suggests that setup speculation will be helpful.

-Scum team compositions are often made in an arbitrary manner. In a theme game based on a two player game where each player has an identical set of pieces pitted against each other, the chances are quite good that there is an arbitrary determination of who is scum.

From flavor, the bomb is a defensive piece. It could easily be pro- or anti-town. It could even be neutral third-party.

I agree that if there is a single "Flag" player who mafia is searching for, then there would need to be mechanics in place to protect that player. However, I strongly disagree that this would be impossible or extremely difficult for a moderator to come up with mechanics to do that. I think your claim otherwise is bogus.
It's more likely that the flag is a target for the town, not something we want to protect.
This is completely unjustified by anything you posted. I strongly dislike this assumption. If there is a flag in this game, then your post strongly suggests to me that you are anti-town searching for it.

Vote: AlmasterGM


-I agree that there is nothing inherently wrong with allowing Sajin to take 72 hours prior to making his case. However, I hope his case actually makes sense with needing to wait.

If his case is simply that he feels Gorrad gave away information that he is a numbered piece that interacts with other numbered pieces, then I see no reason why he would need to wait 72 hours. Also, he would be mixing thematic mechanics with game mechanics. I also hope he is not simply taking 72 hours to discuss with his buddies and gauge townie feelings prior to committing himself to any particular argument.

Generally, though, if there is a case strong enough for a townie to place a serious vote within the first day of the game, it is something that townie should share with the rest of the town. I find it hard to conceive a situation where communicating scum can come up with a "correct answer" to the case, but an individual scum player cannot do the same. This changes on a game by game basis as individual players may have differing amounts of private information.

Since Sajin has stated he will probably claim as part of his case against Gorrad, there is an implication that he has some private information which would be better shared when scum are unable to discuss it.

@Vaya-
Claiming to not be a particular role narrows the field for scum. This is especially dangerous if/when flavor suggests possibility that scum could be searching for that role. Even without that suggestion, the reasoning is the same as why townies don't generally claim "not cop" or "not doc".

@Hoopla, 61-
I believe you are misunderstanding or misrepresenting dramonic's post 47 and he seems incapable of calling you out on it. Post 47 IS referring to the Gorrad wagon and is explicitly the reason why dramonic says he will not vote for Gorrad yet. It has nothing to do with the votes on him.

Post 65 is a direct misrepresentation of what dramonic posted. He did not suggest the game should stall or go on hiatus. He did not ask players to remove their votes from him or stop discussion. He only explained why he is choosing to wait before placing a vote.

I am disliking Hoopla's posts just a bit less than I dislike AlmasterGM's posts. Hoopla seems to be looking to jump on an easy lynch target rather than looking for scum.
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Post Post #70 (ISO) » Sun Aug 23, 2009 4:21 pm

Post by Vaya »

dramonic wrote:I've played in a game were someone got hammered before 48 hours had passed since the beginning. I'm not big on early wagons. Odds are I won't be voting before a few pages in (and 3 is not enough)
I think you're worrying over nothing. I don't know what happened in your game, but if a bandwagon were to grow that quickly and someone were to hammer, they're almost defiantly scum and would probably be lynched the next day.
Kast wrote: @Vaya-
Claiming to not be a particular role narrows the field for scum. This is especially dangerous if/when flavor suggests possibility that scum could be searching for that role. Even without that suggestion, the reasoning is the same as why townies don't generally claim "not cop" or "not doc".
I see, I thought that when you were saying you disliked it, I thought you were implying that you believed it was scummy. That's what I didn't understand.
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Post Post #71 (ISO) » Sun Aug 23, 2009 4:52 pm

Post by Debonair Danny DiPietro »

Agree with Ortohoops about FOS’ being more a tool of scum than of town. However, they are used enough by the town as well that it’s a minor point.

Dramonic’s dislike of early wagons more suggests uselessness to me than scum.
AlmasterGM wrote:First, there has to be some non-arbitrary deliniation between town and mafia. Simply saying something like "the Colonol is scum and the Major is town" makes no sense. It is thus highly likely that these three pieces, which are distinctly separate from the rest, are anti-town.
Uh no. If there was a non-arbitrary delineation then the game could be broken upon a successful lynch and a mass claim. Charter is a better mod than that. Take for example his last theme game that I was a part of South Park mafia featured Stan, Tweak, and Chef as scum and Cartman as an SK. Anyone with experience with the show would be able to tell you that Cartman might make sense as an SK, but there’s no logical reason for the mafia to be mafia or for them to be grouped together.
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Post Post #72 (ISO) » Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:59 pm

Post by Gorrad »

I breadcrumbed because I enjoy the mental stimulation of doing so, and I pointed it out because I saw no reason not to. The odds of finding what it means are ridiculously small.

Bomb: Is going to kill things. That's the piece's sole purpose. It would be stupid to claim a killing role of any alignment. Especially considering that, given the game, I'd bet on it being some sort of PGO role. Even as a Vig, which would make NO sense given the Bomb's immobile nature, claiming would be iffy at best.

Flag: Is going to be an important role, as it's the piece needed to win the game. Stratego is centered around the Flag, and more importantly is centered around keeping it defended and hidden. In a game of Stratego, the flag is the LAST thing you'd ever want to reveal. Therefore, in this game, it would be a stupid role to claim.

Spy: The Spy is a unique piece in that it kills the 1. Therefore, should both the 1 and the Spy be in the same game, they are undoubtedly of differing alignments. If I was a mafia Spy and claimed town Spy, a town 1 could claim and have me lynched. If I was a town Spy and claimed as such, the mafia 1 would NK me quick as possible. Therefore, it would be stupid to claim Spy.
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Post Post #73 (ISO) » Sun Aug 23, 2009 7:21 pm

Post by ElectricBadger »

Gorrad wrote:I breadcrumbed because I enjoy the mental stimulation of doing so, and I pointed it out because I saw no reason not to. The odds of finding what it means are ridiculously small.
I still really don't understand this. The purpose of breadcrumbing is to leave subtle hints of evidence without drawing NK attention and making yourself a target. By announcing such, you've performed the exact opposite: you highlighted yourself as a power role and failed to deliver any worthwhile information.

This looks like a big scum move to me: quasi-claiming a power role to mislead a doctor or appear to have some authority or knowledge to influence a lynch (possibly a setup for a future fake claim?). Too much deliberate obfuscation here to be a townie doing an investigation - such a nonsensical clue is unlikely to be understood post mortem either.

I'm reading this as bombs=mafia, and Gorrad is one: this sort of claim is sure to draw a cop investigation or doctor protection and get our power roles killed off.

Gorrad's 'breadcrumb' has no benefit at all for town, and a lot of potential gain for mafia. Thus, Gorrad=scum.

Although I really dislike the movements towards role claiming I can see misguided townies trying it, and this feels like solid evidence, so-

Unvote Sajin, Vote Gorrad
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Post Post #74 (ISO) » Sun Aug 23, 2009 8:59 pm

Post by ortolan »

I will reiterate that I really don't think any speculation about setup is helpful for this game, I would very much prefer if it was left off the table entirely, at least until a claim is made. Yes it is fun to speculate about the setup but I don't see it doing anything but potentially hurting town.

---

I very, very much dislike ElectricBadger's post above me.

Vote: ElectricBadger
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