Mini 839 -- Mafia Invasion! (Game Over)

[Vi]

Vote: Vi

We have no room for a village idiot.

I think saying Oh My God You Suck is appropriate here, but I'll keep my vote for now~

-----

If I could have everyone's attention, please. I would like for everyone to fill out a quick survey for future reference.

1. How many games have you played to completion on this site?
2. Do you play Mafia on other sites? If so, what is different about those sites vs. here?
3. Do you consider yourself an experienced player?
4. Which other players in this game have you played with in the last six months?
5. Do you prefer to be Town, scum, or third party? Why?
6. Who is your favorite fictional character, and why?
7. How many scum do you think are in this game?
8. Why are you filling this survey out?
9. Do you think this survey will be useful in finding scum?
10. Am I more likely to be Town or scum in creating this survey?
11. Is English your first language?

[Vi]

I knew I missed one question.

12. What scumtell have you found to be most effective?

[Vi]

9. Do you think this survey will be useful in finding scum?

No.

Needlessly to say, I disagree heavily.
Establishing a baseline meta read on you will do me (and all of you should you choose to use these answers) nothing but good.
To contrast, not doing so will only make it harder for me/us to discern your alignment, which will make this game harder (and more importantly, give me a headache which may possibly cause me to flame you).

At the very least you could humor me. If you don't believe it will be helpful, it can't hurt. Can it?

---

I will deal with Porkens' post later.

[Vi]

I really don't think my favourite fictional character would give you a 'baseline meta read', hmm?

It would.

You realize that with all the trouble you're giving me you could just answer the survey and be done with it.
The questions are direct and should not require much forethought, so it shouldn't take more time than any other post.

[Vi]

Like Porkens said, the person writing the survey usually gets a free pass, so I'm just throwing the choice back at you.

Clearly I'm not getting a free pass, and was not getting a free pass before you said anything.
I would also add that what Adel got in Tofu Mafia

hardly

qualified as a free pass; in fact, Adel was slammed pretty heavily for not answering his own survey days after he promised to do so - plus his survey was much more unreasonable than this one.

I'm being difficult on purpose, don't take it personally, kay?

Why?

I don't feel a need to sing my meta nor defend my alignment at this point in the game.

Again, why?

[Vi]

Your definition of 'free pass' is not quite the same as mine. Throwing out those questions lets you stand on the side of the interrogation table that I would rather be standing on. Usually I wouldn't particularly care which side of the table I'm on, but once someone declares themselves that they stand on the questioning side over everyone else (your telling everyone to answer the survey was such a gesture to me), I'd rather not simply obediently sit on the other side. Yes, I am selfish.

There is no "interrogation table". Communication in this game should go both ways - you answer me, I answer you, and nobody's "above" questioning. The world works very nicely that way.
Needlessly to say, I am not exempt from my own questioning and will answer my survey after everyone else has.

Haha, this is a trick question. You say 'why' but you actually mean 'why not'. Almost tricked me there. I don't want to answer 'why not' until you can answer 'why': Why would I need to?

I would like for you to "sing your meta and defend your alignment" because this line of questioning is not helping me determine yours.

That should answer your next question. I believe that your answers to the survey will help me determine your alignment. If you are going to deliberately impede this, I see no option but to believe that you don't want me to know. There is no reason for you not to want me to know your alignment unless you are scum and I'm not, etc., etc.

Enough wasting time. Let's talk alignments.
*Am I scum according to the information you have so far? Why?
*Why

shouldn't

I believe that you are scum impeding my investigation?

-----

Y.C. Survey please. It will be much more effective than a random vote.

[Vi]

Vote on Vi stands until she apologizes for derailing the

entire

game with this nonsense. Or until something else comes along.

I acknowledge that I like ruining other peoples' fun. But no apology.

[Vi]

*lots of stuff*

And there, that should probably be enough for you to get a start of a meta read. Ha.

*scribbles in notebook "J.D is a jerk."*

----

@vi: Please fill out your own survey. If you seriously contend that this information helps the town, you shouldn't have a problem doing this yourself.

I've already said I would when everyone else has. I'll even lower the bar and go when everyone has had the chance to do it or not do it.

----

Well, that's the thing. If Vi has done what I think he's done, these questions have been structured carefully so that only Vi really knows how to interpret them. So we give him a tonne of information, and he gives nothing back.

...or you could ask me to explain it to you.

Please make sure your tinfoil hat is actually made of tinfoil, and not Cling Wrap.

[Vi]

Why do you have to be last to answer the questions? If you'll have to answer them anyway, there should be no reason you can't answer them now, especially when you're asking the rest of us to do so.

Because I'm special, or at least that's what my parents told me.
Actually, it has to do with people not conforming their answers to what they think I'm looking for.

I interfere with the transmission of information? What do you mean?

The first item here.

[Vi]

@vi: dumb head.....it is hard to get EVERYONE do the survey! so you better start fill out your own survey

The dumb head would remind you that I'm still waiting on imaginality and Y.C.

Why sigma?

[Vi]

Generic thank you message goes here.

1. How many games have you played to completion on this site?

A lot

2. Do you play Mafia on other sites? If so, what is different about those sites vs. here?

I occasionally play on another site with a very small pool of players and much shorter Days.

3. Do you consider yourself an experienced player?

Yes

4. Which other players in this game have you played with in the last six months?

Porkens and jammer. I was in a game with Cruciare for all of four pages at the beginning of the year.

5. Do you prefer to be Town, scum, or third party? Why?

Town. Much less to worry about that way.

6. Who is your favorite fictional character, and why?

Tough decision. Hobbes from Calvin and Hobbes is definitely on the list.

7. How many scum do you think are in this game?

3

8. Why are you filling this survey out?

I'm kind of obligated to

9. Do you think this survey will be useful in finding scum?

Yes. It already has been.

10. Am I more likely to be Town or scum in creating this survey?

I don't think I'm the right person to be answering this one.

11. Is English your first language?

Yes.

12. What scumtell have you found to be most effective?

Active lurking, aka skirting by.

Results are being compiled; please hold...

[Vi]

Okay, these are the results. I'll begin by explaining the survey.

Questions 1-3 were related to each player's experience. This is an obvious part of any baseline meta read.

Question 4 pertains to which other players you may have a meta read on, which is a fancy way of saying you have better-than-zero idea of what they might do in this topic.

Question 5 is the first one where I push the envelope and get an idea of what people like best about Mafia, or in other words, what I can expect to see them do in this game as either alignment. Wishy-washy answers of Town would be something to press on as scum nervous about tying themselves to being scum.

Question 6, the infamous fictional character question. In the same line as Question 5, most people will choose their favorite fictional character based on them thinking or acting the same way on some level. Plus if nothing else it's something nice to know about you, and there's really no harm in knowing that.

Question 7, about how many scum are in this game. This question is only there to make scum object to it as outguessing the setup. 3 is the standard answer.

Questions 8 through 10 are related to the survey itself, as I expected people to wtf about it. Of course, there's kind of a Catch-22 that people who don't think the setup would help wouldn't fill it out in the first place, but my initial expectation would be that unless there's a valid reason to object to the entire survey (and it had better be good), a disbelieving Townie would at least answer honestly here.

Question 11 is very important because people who do not speak English as a first language are more likely to be misunderstood, which can lead to awkward situations in the future if they mess up their English.

Question 12 was originally intended to see whether anyone would actually commit their own scumtells later; however, I completely understand people not wanting to tell at this point and find that answer acceptable.

-------

Now for some reads.

DeathRowKitty's answers provide me zero information. This is partly because to a degree he couldn't answer a lot of them; however, the terse nature of his answers keep him at neutral for now.

I have no problem with jammer's answers and would like for Porkens to explain why he's picking on jammer.

Unless Porkens has finally gone over the edge and needs to be sent to the nut house (admittedly a possibility ), I'm interpreting his objection to my survey as a way to stir up reactions to it without particular malice about it (see obvious sarcasm in "In the literally thousands of games I've played here"). The reasons he listed for why the survey is anti-Town are inadequate for reasons I've started to touch on, but to a degree I suspect that's the point.
So my read on Porkens is entirely dependent on what reactions he has found and his judgment on them. Of course, if he claims that his objections were serious the whole time, he's full of crap.

It's very tempting to say that Cruciare's disappearance after I asked some very direct questions is telling, but I know better.
For now, considering that this sort of behavior is nicely in line with the Cruciare I remember from Time Abuse Mafia and judging from still being a Goon he hasn't played much here since then, I'll have to go with a slight Town read.

James.Denholm initial flippant response feels like Town who either doesn't have any idea what he's talking about and/or underestimates me. For instance,

Seriously, what the hell does our favourite fiction character have to do with anything? And if it does have something to do with something, what's to stop me from lying? I could say, for example, Harry Potter, when I mean, for example, Marcus Fenix! You probably don't even know who that is!

Do you mean this Marcus Fenix?
His continued attempts to discredit this survey have shaken this initial read. I'm keeping an eye here.
Also, while I'm here.

Why do you feel the need to only answer your own question after everyone else has? Lead by example.

Actually, it has to do with people not conforming their answers to what they think I'm looking for.

I'm definitely assuming English is your first language. Please read before you attempt to discredit something in an attempt to look cool. Thank you.

sigma, like DeathRowKitty, doesn't have much to go on based on not having any completed games. The responses feel vaguely Town; however,

9)

[Do you think this survey will be useful in finding scum?]

Yes -- whether or not it's answered by scum.

I'd like to know who you find suspicious based on this, considering you random voted in the same post.

Col. Cathart's answers strike me as coming from an experienced perspective, which makes sense given he's played offsite. However, the answers are fully open, which I approve of. I would like to know who he thinks is scum at this point.

Tjoe Min Ja (TMJ) has an interesting response to 5, although it's not useful at this time. Other than that, it's not opportunistic anywhere. Null, slight positive read.

imaginality... oh, oops. Add imaginality to the list of players I've played with recently.
I would like to see who imaginality finds suspicious at this point. The answers are nice; the vote is absent. (For instance, why not vote Y.C. in your first post instead of FoSing him?)

Y.C.'s answers are throwing red flags everywhere, and I'm not just talking about not participating in the survey.

2. The attempt to bind participation in the survey to any aspect in the game itself is problematic to say the least.

You don't have a leg to stand on. Explain yourself, now.

3. Nonetheless, this business, although irritating to the extreme, is not indicative of anything beyond itself. I do not take Vi to be scum (yet).

I don't believe this waffle. If my attempt to bind participation to the survey is

at least

problematic, wouldn't it suggest that I'm being deliberately anti-Town? At this stage in the game, isn't that worth a vote?

I acknowledge that I like ruining other peoples' fun

Delibaretly admitting this either conceales a desire to get lynched, being a jester, or is rude in the extreme. So much in fact, that I will move my vote to her if she does not stop this side-tracking. I will sacrifice a townsperson on the principle that such rudeness should not go unpunished and that I do not wish to have any contact with self-declared trolls.

"rude in the extreme"? Why thank you
The quote from me is an obvious joke in a similar vein to Porkens' "literally thousands of games". Now let's count the anti-Town statements here.
1) "jester" - Anyone who says the J-word in a game should be shot on sight. Considering this goes hand-in-hand with "conceals a desire to get lynched", it seems like I'm two parts Jester, one part troll. I like to think that I'm one part Troll.
In addition, the optimum play with Jesters is to lynch them anyway. So why waffle and not vote?
2) "sacrifice a townsperson" - Wait, wait, wait, and wait.

Did you just call me a townsperson without any qualifiers?

That's a slip. Thank you for making my life easy.
3) "such rudeness should not go unpunished" - Rudeness has nothing to do with my alignment. In addition, the quote you posted has nothing to do with me being rude. And last, if you want rude, let me get JDodge in here. I just joke around.

-----

And so we see that the survey did its job nicely~

Vote: Y.C.

(L-5)

[Vi]

From this I infer that it is a regular tactic of her, and not a means of drawing animosity towards herself, which is the automatic result as I see it,

This is the first time I have done a survey like this.
Porkens is referring to

Adel

in Tofu Mafia. Adel was scum, and most certainly did not go unquestioned for a survey that was considerably more dubious than this one.

In conclusion, since she is not a jester, she is either mafia, which should be lynched, or third party/Townie, in which case I am ready to lynch her by the principle stated in my previous post.

Once again, let's count the anti-Town statements here.
1) "Vi is either Mafia or third party/Townie" - Um, what's left?
2) "or

third party

/Townie, in which case I am ready to lynch her by the principle stated in my previous post" - What principle? As far as I can tell you're voting me for being rude, which in this post itself you said was not indicative of my alignment! And apparently even though that's not a scumtell by your own admission, it's worth a policy lynch (that's what it is when you vote to lynch someone for reasons other than being scum). That is precisely what you are saying with

Also, my words about sacrificing a townsperson are meant as indication of intent, a principle, as stated in the same paragraph Vi quoted. It does not mean I view her as a Townsperson.

Cut by DeathRowKitty: ...basically that, but I don't want to throw this post away now that I've finished it

[Vi]

I was typing a response, and once again DRK beats me to it.

Although I have a question. On what grounds should I be forcibly replaced/modkilled/etc.?

[Vi]

P.S: Vi, if in the other game the survey was adele's, my point still stands. You did not invent this method simply to irritate others, you copied someone else's technique, a technique I find highly flawed and rude.

Is this seriously part of your argument to discredit me?
You mean if in some other game someone else uses vote analysis and catches scum with it, it's

immoral

- never mind worthy of mod intervention - for you to use it in your next game?

[Vi]

However, since the survey centered all discussion around itself,

I'm pretty sure the survey is only tangential to the accusations being levied against you. I barely mentioned once that you didn't take it.

In addition, if I get lynched and when I flip Town, do you really think that will make any talk about what I've done go away?

Especially

if I get lynched today as you like.

jammer, who is most suspicious at this point?
Col. Cathart, would you like to speak of the giant scummy elephant in the room?

[Vi]

I can not see why not give him the time. It can not hurt town, only help.

I don't entirely agree, but having J.D, imaginality, Col. Cathart, and afatchic show up would be nice.

[Vi]

lol...there are still many to convinced

wat
Please explain this post.

Cut by imaginality: That works too. Although I don't remember wiploc going as far as this.

[Vi]

Col.Cathart said my opinion on TMJ 82, and even if he hadn't Porkens and jammer did too.

Now I'm absolutely fine with the YC train haven'ting breaks, but this wagon will warrant investigation one way or the other as the dust settles.

I wouldn't be surprised if we've stumbled onto scum with this wagon, actually. So I encourage those of you voting for TMJ to switch to YC. Yes, TMJ joined an easy wagon. However, sometimes wagons are easy for a reason.

Do you want both TMJ and Y.C lynched?
Do you want them both lynched ASAP?

jammer, why are you voting according to a set policy?

[Vi]

TJM- If Vi is 51/49 to you right now, then why did it bother you that Y.C. tried to take Vi down. Accoriding to that, he had a 51% shot at taking down scum, and 49% shot at taking down town.

...I think I'll wait before saying something about this.

That depends on what you mean by "P"

Or let me put it like this.
If you were my dream role (ignore the Win Condition), would you shoot both of them now?

@TMJ: So is/was Y.C scummy enough to be lynched or not?

[Vi]

Get back here. We need a replacement.

[Vi]

And with Tjoe, his actions could be becouse he is newish(or something), as Cruciare said.

Where did Cruciare say that?

----

@J.D - I wouldn't say I'm a great scum player; the last game I completed was my first scum win and I only got that because a Townie gave up in LyLo.

As for whether the survey is a scumtell, your best bet would probably be to look into how I went about the survey and see if there are any selfish motives.
Alternatively, look at the rest of my play

Also, jammer's vote on you wasn't random.

----

Now on to the new topic about Tjoe Min Ja.
Well i was going to say something about this, but now that i think about it, i may should let him speak first. however here is a little preview of what it says....
WIWABIFWMVALBETSMADPITTMBC. IRCUWPOMOBJF,LWHIDSF. STSLANTTM.
(Hope i remember what that stands for lol)

BTW, I'll be participating in the survey in a few minutes.

We need a follow-up for all of this.
In addition, if you don't want to vote Y.C, why not vote someone else?

----

Of course, little scum taste is still there, but I've seen players like that. Their point of view blinds them so much, they're not seeing how stupid are things they are typing. I see him as overreacting townie who went into argument in Vi, and it was too late to backtrack from that point, so he went deeper into this bullshit. But that's only my opinion. Which is more or less useless, as Y.C. will be replaced,

and we'll never know the answer...

Do you think we will be able to read his replacement, popsofctown?

[Vi]

pops, to state what should be obvious you're at L-1. Could you elaborate on how TMJ fits the mold of newbscum? (see also the question @jammer two lines down)

jammer, are you comfortable with pops at L-1? Since you kinda put him there.

And... I'm not seeing anything where Cruciare called TMJ a newb, especially since TMJ explicitly said he's not one. Even so, how would newbiness affect your judgment here?

@Tofu Mafia: I won a game that was noticeably Town-sided filled with experienced players that should have been won a couple of times over by said Town in a game that should have been half its size in pages. I guess that should count for something.

[Vi]

I'm willing to

Unvote: popsofctown

for now, with pops on a tight leash.

Also,

I think

[TMJ's]

scum, and I really don't even need much more to go off of.

I missed this the first time I read the post. You're that confident on Page 5 and after just replacing in?

----

Table of

Lies

Terminological Inexactitudes:

jammer - 1 {107}
TMJ - 1 {82}

[Vi]

Yeah, it's just too much of a mirror i just saw in a recent newbie game.

Link

por favor

But what's up with unvoting me Vi? You always think i'm scum or SK..

So... you...

WANT

me to vote you?
And the time I thought you were an SK, you were... um... an Unnecessarily Compulsive Vigilante Neutral Survivor.

Cruciare, could you elaborate on TMJ's apparent newbishness?
Is jammer still an issue?
Is it more important to hear from "certain people" or to hammer?

[Vi]

@pops: Okay, I'm Bad At Mafia.
Could you winnow it down to a post or two if it's such a mirror?
Sorry for being a pain over this, but it's hard to "get into" a game that I'm not in.

I mean, maybe he's scum and trying to distance himself from TMJ, but where's the gain in making this statement as scum?

AtE.

I'm not taking pops 129 seriously.

[Vi]

*stuff about how TMJ is scummy and useless*

*advertisement for quicklynching pops*

I'm not quite following this progression.

[Vi]

but to me,

[TMJ]

looks more like a scapegoat for keeping pops alive.

In saying this you are implicitly assuming TMJ-Town and pops-scum. Correct?

I would like to hear more from imaginality, Porkens, and afatchic about the stalemate going on here.

With that said,

Vote: afatchic

(L-5)
I know he's been onsite.

[Vi]

DRK: Why do you think TMJ is Town (in line with this conversation about him being unreadable)?

At least four people find Jammer suspicious (I didn't express my suspicion of Jammer as clearly, but I did mention it in a recent post),

but he's better (IMO) to look at after alignments have been revealed.

Why?

----

I latch on to other suspicious people whenever I'm at L-1, not only when i'm at scum L-1. It's protown to do that, I'm town so i don't want me to be the lynch, i want whoever i think most scummy to be the lynch.

This statement bothers me. Are you doing this mostly because you're in danger?

The rest of your statement - "lynch all unreadables, just not me, pleeeeeeeze", essentially - is extremely scummy because it implies that we have to lynch -now-. Contrary to popular belief, we don't. Whatever happened to gathering more information? This reinforces the message everyone has been saying - you're willing to do anything to push the lynch off you; up to, including, and through demonizing whoever's most likely to convince everyone.

*cut by imaginality*
Or in other words, imaginality's Points 2 and 4.

This would be the part where I vote you, but I really don't want to end the Day before afatchic shows up. TMJ showing up and commenting about almost being the center of attention would be nice too.

[Vi]

DRK: Why do you think TMJ is Town (in line with this conversation about him being unreadable)?

Well, I have little direct read on him. His actions have been strange, yes, but I don't see any of them as more likely to come from TMJ-scum as TMJ-town. Based on that, I would probably put him as neutral. What puts him at town is my mind is largely that I think pops is scum. People started paying more attention to TMJ after the YC wagon began and pops himself is attempting to fuel the TMJ wagon. Based on this, he's leaning town in my mind.

So your

Town

read on TMJ is based entirely on your

scum

read on Y.C?
How does this Doctor claim factor into that?

I don't want to explain too much about jammer at the moment. There are certain connections I think we should look more into with jammer when we know an alignment or two. (etc.)

Are these alignments necessary for the case, or are you just trying to prevent anyone but pops from getting lynched today?

I give up.

No you don't.

At this time I don't have an objection to pops' claim.

[Vi]

Would someone with experience care to share a little wisdom as to how to proceed?

My advice at this point is to make your own decisions, starting as of your last post.

Cruciare, what is TMJ if pops=Town? None of this "consider"ing mess. Take a stance.

I think Porkens may be on the right track with what he's saying (>")>

[Vi]

EBWOP: My advice at this point is for you to make your own decisions, etc.

[Vi]

jammer, why vote the fat chick?

[Vi]

@Cruciare: Wanting to lynch a claimed power role is only unreasonable if you don't have a good reason to back up your vote. If you think pops is scum and pulling this claim out of his rear, go for it.

all of you should know that Y.C. behaviour is a lot scummy especially his temper

Being temperamental is scummy?

[Vi]

Basically the only roles that aren't allowed in Normal games are
*tied to a flavor
*completely made up

In other words, M. Doctor is completely legitimate.

[Vi]

pops, has it occurred to you that not being useless is pro-Town?

Also, I second Porkens 172.

[Vi]

Seriously guys, im gone three days and already have a policy lynch wagon forming?

It got your attention, didn't it?~

TMJ would be better to answer other people than to post irrelevant details about himself.
Likewise pops can stop being useless any time now.

I actually like afatchic 180. Well worth the pressure vote.

Porkens, are you still looking at "something"?

Scummy players first. We can lynch unreadable players later if it's really necessary.

QFT. In my opinion, TMJ is unreadable based on the knowledge we have right now. I'd rather lynch someone else.

Do you think TMJ will remain unreadable if a wagon builds on him?~

-----

On afatchic's request, I took a second look at imaginality.

For example, a scum doctor might be less concerned about coming under pressure if they felt their doc claim was unlikely to be counterclaimed (given that all else being equal, two docs are somewhat less likely than one), as compared with a scum who is purely bullshitting with his doc claim.

pops himself mentioned in his first post that he thought YC's play was more like that of a godfather. That's obviously a bit different but that kind of 'slightly fearless' play is what I was thinking of.

Yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyno, actually, the parallel you're giving makes no sense. Godfather is probably one of the least secure claims in Mafia

Beside that point, what if pops IS a Mafia Doctor? He would read as okay to this line of thought and still be Mafia. Bad news for you, unless you're not interested in scumhunting.

I figured if someone wanted to speedlynch pops they probably would've done it the first time he was at L-1. And that an obvious quickhammer would put the hammerer firmly in the spotlight Day2 (if pops flipped town).

jammer's vote on pops (116) to put him at L-1 the first time looks more like an attempt to speedlynch. Not stating it's the L-1 vote is something that always looks a bit scummy. If pops flips town, I can see both jammer and TMJ as scum from the way they got on the pops wagon (among other factors).

So what you're saying is that
*you wouldn't have hammered pops (as evidenced by pinning blame on jammer for the L-1 vote)
*you were more than willing to put pops at L-1 again
?
Do you want a pops lynch, or don't you?

Further, after you mentioned to prod afatchic due to the short deadlines, you yourself left for four days. I have evidence that you were onsite during that time. Between these posts you went from voting TMJ for building up the Y.C wagon (74) and placing pops at L-1 (126). Meanwhile in 170 you say "interesting few

hours

", suggesting a timeframe for when you check the thread... and all mention of TMJ has ceased since your vote on him.
This also ties into the previous point because it implies that you were well in control of the timing of your pops vote - you would have known if a pops vote would have been received favorably after his claim.

Since I've already pointed out how checking to see if pops is an M. Doctor qualifies more as dochunting than scumhunting, I find it telling that you Unvoted pops after his claim but haven't bothered to look anywhere else for a place to put this vote.

Vi approves of this wagon. *stamps with Vi Seal of Approval*
:arrow:

Unvote: afatchic
Vote: imaginality

(L-6)

[Vi]

@Porkens: I'm having a slow night, but as long as you're keeping track of it I'm fine with waiting.

@pops: Would you like to claim scum and get it over with?

[Vi]

Now,

[TMJ's]

posts are somewhat better,

?

-----

Similarly, scum who feel they have a decent or provable claim might also be less concerned about staying under the radar if they think they have a good chance of weasling out of a lynch due to their claim.

Doctor is neither decent nor provable. I have my own experience with a M. Goon deliberately No Killing to back up a D1 Doctor claim that let him coast to endgame.

And the follow-up paragraph is pretty much backpedaling.

No, I wouldn't have hammered pops at the time jammer placed his L-1 vote. After his posts 118 and 126 I felt happier that he'd had a chance to argue his side, or roleclaim, and his posts had only succeeded in making him look scummier.

So do you want a pops lynch now? The only difference between now and then is his roleclaim.
What about TMJ, since you unvoted him because pops was throwing mud at him?

YC didn't seem greatly scummy to me, and TMJ's vote looked a bit opportunistic. Hence my vote on TMJ at that point. But then - pops's play after replacing YC, particular his attempting to shift pressure onto TMJ who was the only other player under pressure, his lack of comment on anyone else, and the appeals to emotion, were what led me to vote pops.
(...)
? I voted him well before his claim. Not sure what you're getting at with that, or the whole timing thing really. "Interesting few hours" referred to the time between my post 154 (saturday 9:17am) and my post 170 (saturday 2:10pm), it doesn't mean I always check the thread every few hours or sooner.

I acknowledge that I was going off of memory with the timing of pops' claim.
However, you're glossing over the point here - you skipped

four days

of this thread but were clearly elsewhere onsite. That would be "lurking".
As to better state the faulty claim argument - when you did show up, you voted pops to L-1 because you knew it would not be contested very highly. Opportunism, etc.

While I'm not sure I don't want to leave my vote on him, and I haven't had much opportunity time-wise to hunt around for other scum lately - want to decide yeah or nay on pops first.

I don't buy this stalling for time. Your vote on pops is, for the moment, inconsequential. In the meantime, you can do this thing called "multitasking" where you scumhunt AND wait for pops to respond to you at the same time.

Last, this flowery language screams fake.

I thought it was a natural and pro-town thing

to consider (and, not knowing the answer, to check) whether alignment and role went hand in hand or not in normal games.

Perhaps a touch of my caution arises

from...

First bolded segment - Very few non-n00b Townies have considered whether Doctor is necessarily Town in my experience, partly because Doctor has a nasty tendency to be completely unprovable and partly because scum claiming their actual non-vanilla roles are pretty rare. But beside that, this looks like a front for you thinking "oops, I didn't think that would be so scummy".

Second bolded segment - "Perhaps a touch"? You can't come out and say that your opinion is definitely influenced by a game you lost to a significant enough degree that you brought the subject up in the first place? This looks like an attempt to sound intellectual that's falling flat.


tl;dr imaginality is scum; please vote him.

----

@RedCoyote:

Please list the deadline in each vote count.

Sure thing

[Vi]

I wonder why nobody bothered to listen to me about imaginality?
Don't complain about not having a consensus if you're not going to look very hard for the Scum In Front Of Me (SIFOM).

pops is not a poor lynch and at deadline (more or less now) I would endorse his demise.
TMJ is not a terrible lynch either.
Porkens and imaginality are worth investigation.

-----

Probably. Finding out what alignment pops is would be much more helpful in finding out what alignment tjoe is.

I disagree.

First segment: My surprise at it being seen as scummy is because I don't think it is scummy to ask clarification about whether role implies alignment. Please explain the scum motive for doing so.

Second segment: Again not sure why I would underplay that as scum. My 'perhaps a touch' was because it was a theme game, so I wasn't sure how much of that caution was appropriate to carry over into a normal game. Hence my asking about it.

1) Looking Town. 'Same reason as asking "Are we in LyLo?" when you already know the answer to that question.
2) It sounds like you're trying to manipulate your own thoughts with the fancy wording.

I know you're not a newb, so I would have expected you to know what the difference between a Normal and Theme game would be, but that's not worth arguing over tbh.

-----

Unvote: imaginality
Vote: popsofctown

(L-3)

pops has been tsundere for my vote for a while now; why disappoint?~

[Vi]

@vi: I wasn't that impressed by the case on imaginality -- it seemed to be built on him musing about 'scum doctors', and that just didn't strike me as being particularly odd.

Mmmno.

Porkens, you seemed to miss my and Vi's question. Are you still observing 'that thing'? Is there a chance, we'll know what is it, before the day will end?

I think it would be best to let Porkens take control of it from here... although Porkens is playing a more guarded game than I'd expect.

Where's the fireworks Porkens you said there would be fireworks

I wouldn't mind a pops or TMJ lynch tbh, but I think D1 analysis will help us find scum better later than we will at this point.

[Vi]

Vi wants TMJ lynch. Come on. It needs to happen.

Reach down in your heart of hearts Vi. Do i act like this as scum?

I wouldn't know how you act as scum.
While I will acknowledge that you are lynchbait as Town, you don't actively try to get yourself lynched as now. I'm banking that you're deliberately playing helpless.

DRK: TMJ is already voting pops.

[Vi]

Because the scum want to eliminate all the PR's, to prevent anything from stopping them at night. So either we lynch someone else, and make them kill the doc, or we kill the doc and let them have a free shot at night.

You seem 100% convinced Pops is actually the doc? :!:

↑ Only remotely satisfying post since the last time I showed up. ↑

[Vi]

I also have some doubts about pops case, but until his or DRK's alignment won't be known, I cannot really accuse him of this. I'll try to reread it again, and I'll be watching his next posts, and we'll see.

Why so waffly?

[Vi]

Why do you need for pops to write more posts before you can come to a decision to vote him?

[Vi]

Vi

Why are you voting for Pops? Is the deadline factoring into it?

The only explanation I can come up with for pops' actions at this point is Refuge in Audacity; I know pops can play better than he has so far. (Besides, isn't reading the game you want to replace into BEFORE you jump in kind of what most people do anyway? Then why the surprise?)
The deadline is a factor because it's stifling discussion to a degree, not that I seem to be able to do much about that...

I don't like this deadline. The closer to it we get, the weirder some people start to act. I'm starting to draw paranoid interpretations like Sigma's on various players, and it's making me feel uneasy. I may now be willing to lynch like half the people on the playerlist just so we won't have a no lynch.

Explain.

@Mod: Your judgement that we won't need further extensions is probably based on the assumption of a near-unanimous Pops desperation lynch today. If that doesn't look like it's going to happen, would you consider extending it further?

Objection.
Also, I don't recognize you without your previous avatar.

Col.Kittyhart 267 is yet another waffle, and while these two most recent posts aren't really scumtells IMO, they are also not Towntells. If time permitted I would actually like to press here next.

I endorse this questioning of Porkens by Sotty7. To that end, I would like to add my own question.

The next couple days in the game could drastically change the effects of

[pops']

claim.

How so?

[Vi]

I don't like this deadline. The closer to it we get, the weirder some people start to act. I'm starting to draw paranoid interpretations like Sigma's on various players, and it's making me feel uneasy.

I may now be willing to lynch like half the people on the playerlist just so we won't have a no lynch.

Explain.

It wouldn't hurt you to be a little clearer, would it?

Do you think that a majority will not converge to lynch someone today?
Do you think it would be out of your skill level to campaign for the person you think is most scummy to be lynched? (Who is most scummy IYO, anyway?)
Who is on or off this "half the people on the playerlist"?

How is this terribly different from answering a survey?

Cut by jammer: Nice to see that you don't have many thoughts beyond the bare minimum

[Vi]

@Porkens

...I still don't see this being pops-Town behavior, but for now I'm willing to go along with pops being pinned to his claim as good enough for now.
In the event that he's Town, I can only hope that his Night choices are better than his Day game.

-----

imaginality, is there anything you would like to add to the discussion without being prompted? Likewise for TMJ.

-----

The reason I ask is because you seemed to believe his claim earlier. Am I wrong with that assessment?

In a sense. The thought process worked like this.
*Doctor is the #1 fakeclaim for scum and early on I'm tempted to openly recommend Lynch All Claimed Doctors.
*However, from what I know of pops' meta, it's not entirely out of line for him to play like lynchbait (unintentionally) as Town.
So at the time of his claim -1 + 1 = 0, and I didn't feel I had a definitive idea of what to do with it.
*However, then pops started playing like lynchbait (intentionally).
I really can't rationalize pops as not realizing how bad he sounds

and not doing anything about it

. Then again, I have this same complaint about at least one other player in this game so <_<

-----

@Cruciare: First, I will apologize for "Explain". I didn't realize until you pointed it out that I kind of failed at teh Engleesh.
(No comment on educational standards; I just went back to a high school event and heard all about how apparently learning isn't actually the point of a secondary education.)

For example, the absence of notable objection to his claim. What do you think about this?

I think there has been plenty of notable objection to pops' claim, as evidenced by people still wanting to lynch him.
Counterquestion. What would you expect scum to do when confronted with Townpops' claim?
To contrast, what would you expect Town to do when confronted with ?pops' claim?

-----

I'm going to

Unvote: popsofctown

for the moment.
Realistically speaking this vote will go toward TMJ sometime in the next 24 hours. However, I believe there's definitely worth in questioning around until then.

-----

Cut.

The case on me seems to be:

erratic behavior (which hasn't been cited, only fabricated)
a pro-town suggestion (too pro-town must be scum)

in short; crap

?
Are you saying in your first statement that you have not done anything that could look suspicious?

Cruciare wouldn't be terrible either so I guess there's your answer.

?

[Vi]

That's right, I just quoted your question mark. I think Crucial's 290 is incredibly ill-conceived. That stands out more than much else.

Either I've been riding the slow bus for understanding you or I need to stop playing Mafia while half-asleep. What about it is incredibly ill-conceived?

In addition, I think you're misrepresenting the accusation against your play by labeling it "erratic", although this is colored by amnesia and my own opinion of your play.

-----

@Cruciare 295: I'm pretty sure I see what you're saying. As a bonus, I think you've answered all of my other questions before you asked them.

[Vi]

@Sotty7: The reason for your vote on me, if I understand you correctly, is that I took an ambiguous stance toward pops' claim. If so, you are correct. I have shown you my arguments for and against pops' claim and therefore why I did not know what to do with it.
Therefore this is where I would object.

So “no objection” and no mention of your hammer intentions makes me think you believed his claim when he made it.

I can see how you came to this conclusion, but it's not accurate.
My advice to Cruciare later was based on him having a decided opinion of pops' claim, whereas I didn't.

[Vi]

Porkens is the most scummy other player. He

behaves erratically

and he seems more interested in stirring than hunting for scum. His disorganizations seem like a way to make noise rather than find scum.

this is where "erratic" came from.

Speaking frankly, I wouldn't take pops as a clear indicator of the case against anyone.
In other words I suspect you're misrepresenting your perception.

Basically, I think you believed the claim while at the same time encouraged another player to keep their vote on Pops. Those two things don't add up to me.

I'm assuming this means we're at an impasse, since my rebuttal would just be a copy/paste of Vi 300 (

Doctors? THIS! IS! LYNCHEM!!

).

[Vi]

You're that smart?

[Vi]

At the end of the Day - no pun intended - I'm going to go with a pops vote. Queue now to accuse Vi of scandalous changing of mind.

On the plus side, we don't have a single uncontested wagon to end the Day, for those who were concerned about it earlier.

Vote: popsofctown

(L-2)

U. Vote Count

pops (5) - TMJ, Cruciare, sigma, imaginality, Vi
TMJ (4) - Col.Cathart, pops, Porkens, jammer
Otherwise wasting their votes: Sotty7, DeathRowKitty, afatchic

I'm surprised to see that DRK isn't voting anyone, especially after that last post.

[Vi]

Yes we can! [/shamelessappeal]

No. Nooooo. Nooooooooooooooo. N+o^∞.

[Vi]

Ugh.

Do you think either option is any good?
(If this isn't what your "ugh" is about, please elaborate.)

I figured I'd wait to vote to see if anyone tried to make too strong a push for either candidate without strong reason (trying to save a scumbuddy). I would've voted earlier if I'd realized TMJ had 4 votes.

...are you telling me that you were trying to gambit by not having your vote on someone for over 150 posts?

U. Vote Count

pops (6) - TMJ, Cruciare, sigma, imaginality, Vi, DRK
TMJ (5) - Col.Cathart, pops, Porkens, jammer, Sotty7
Still useless: afatchic

I'm not sure if it's what Sotty was talking about, but... ugh. I see two problems with this arrangement.

[Vi]

Ugh is because I do not like this Pops lynch.

Why not?

[Vi]

If I have to I'll hammer TMJ to prevent a No Lynch, but it's not my preferred choice at all.

[Vi]

At this point I don't think anyone from TMJ's side is going to swap over.
afatchic showing up wouldn't actually prove anything, as it would be a choice between TMJ and No Lynch.
So I may as well kick this sled down the hill.

Unvote: popsofctown
Vote to Hammer: Tjoe Min Ja

[Vi]

Wow. That makes two surprising flips.

Agreed.
The good news is that -usually- Survivor is counted as scum, which hopefully says good things about the rest of the game.

I don't have a problem with the afatchic pressure, although I

am

surprised to see him respond to it tbh.

Although Pops didn't flip doc, the scum killed him

because

he claimed doc. Yesterday Vi encouraged a voter on the claimed doc wagon while keeping her vote off.

No contest. I've explained this quite a few times now.

Also TMJ quickly followed Vi with a vote on Y.C at the start of the game here. TMJ strikes me as the kind of scum that would make that kind of early newb mistake.

What kind of early newb mistake? (Specifically, does it have to be one that necessarily includes me as scum?)

How you feeling Cruciare?

Vindicated?
Embarrassed?
Hopeful?

I know my answer.

Vote: imaginality

(L-5)
My suspicions from yesterday, based on matters including but not limited to selective participation, have not changed.

[Vi]

Although Pops didn't flip doc, the scum killed him

because

he claimed doc.

Did they?
But doesn't that seem odd to you?

On a related note,

Although Pops didn't flip doc, the scum killed him

because

he claimed doc. Yesterday Vi encouraged a voter on the claimed doc wagon while keeping her vote off.

This is a

non sequitur

- the first sentence does not lead to the second; it actually weakens it. The second sentence is what you were saying yesterday, without the important part--

Basically, I think you believed the claim

while at the same time encouraged another player to keep their vote on Pops.

I'm sure this would have much more of a punch if my suspicions about the claim were not well-founded (and well-documented in 294).

While I'm here I'll answer two of my own questions (previously asked to Cruciare).

Counterquestion. What would you expect scum to do when confronted with Townpops' claim?
To contrast, what would you expect Town to do when confronted with ?pops' claim?

1) Get the heck off the wagon.
2) Question the claim.

Incidentally.

*Doctor is the #1 fakeclaim for scum and early on I'm tempted to openly recommend Lynch All Claimed Doctors.

This is now a mantra.

[Vi]

I don't really see the non sequitur. "Pops was killed for his doc claim. Vi wanted to lynch a claimed doc." Am I missing something?

The conclusion to this would be "Vi-scum thought pops was a doc"... Oh now I get it.

Vi: Why do you think you sound "off" to me?

After a vague post like 351, I don't know - why not make your own case on me?
I've already noted a discrepancy in your play ITT and your Town meta (meta? That's cheating! No wai!), so I'm not inclined to trust your good word atm.

------

Obvious following of the partner.

I've never seen this happen with the first and second votes on a wagon.

Why do you think he was killed then if it wasn't because he claimed doc?

Oh, I believe that he was killed because he claimed Doctor. But what's strange is that the scum didn't have any better targets, considering pops would have been just as useless and suspicious today and pops' protection was probably unlikely to land in the same place as the night-kill. (To answer the objection about a future protection on a Cop, as with a Framer a Cop is expected in this setup: Personally I'd take a shot at the Cop now; it's the difference between preventing follow-the-Cop starting Day 3 and preventing follow-the-Cop in the first place.)
My change in opinion on you began when I realized that as the Doctor I would have protected you, and pops probably would not have done so (as I would have expected him to protect either himself or me or someone chosen by the dice tags), therefore I expected you to be NKd. Likewise there are a few people that I'm reading nicely pro-Town right now that would also have been acceptable targets.

I think because of TMJ's powerful role bussing is less likely.

How powerful was it?

[Vi]

vi's acting very strange about the pops NK.

But what's strange is that the scum didn't have any better targets, considering pops would have been just as useless and suspicious today and pops' protection was probably unlikely to land in the same place as the night-kill. (To answer the objection about a future protection on a Cop, as with a Framer a Cop is expected in this setup: Personally I'd take a shot at the Cop now; it's the difference between preventing follow-the-Cop starting Day 3 and preventing follow-the-Cop in the first place.)

My change in opinion on you

[Sotty7]

began

when I realized that as the Doctor I would have protected you, and pops probably would not have done so (as I would have expected him to protect either himself or me or someone chosen by the dice tags), therefore I expected you to be NKd. Likewise there are a few people that I'm reading nicely pro-Town right now that would also have been acceptable targets.

Does this have a point? I don't understand why we're speculating on the scum's motives so much -- it seems kind of pointless and distracting.

At its simplest, the bolded would be the point.

As far as pointless and distracting, I would like to quickly illustrate what happened at the end of a game I was in recently.

ScumVi - Well, the Godfather just got lynched so I'll kill the Cop-confirmed innocent B&B (because, well, Cop-confirmed) and get Troll to lynch Elmo-obvscum tomorrow like he said he would for a while now.
--kill--
ScumVi - Okay, that means that Elmo's the last scum. B&B was totally killed because he was Cop-confirmed.
TrollTown - Elmo wouldn't have made that kill because it leaves him in LyLo with two people who have wanted him lynched for Days, while B&B wouldn't have ever voted him.
ScumVi - o.o;;

I believe this is a similar situation. pops was an attractive kill on paper, but hardly ideal from the perspective of someone who isn't scum.

[Vi]

@Col.Cathart: Before you read too much into that, consider--

just realize I haven't

post

here...again

*

haunt

the thread*

good luck to the remaining player...

Bad English FTL.

-----

I realize this is a bit of a leap, but that's what I think.

Irony.

With how him v TMJ went down yesterday, if Pops was alive today, there was no way I was going to vote for him WIFOM or not. In a game with such a short deadline I simply fail to believe that the scum would be so backwards in that two of their members would be the competing wagons of the day.

Good point. Withdrawing previous few posts for the time being.

What is your change of opinion on me? I wasn't aware of your original opinion. Are you saying I'm suspicious because I didn't die over night?

More so, yes. There's a little more to it, but I'm not going to go onward with that now.

-----

sigma. You're telling me rather authoritatively to drop the subject. But am I suspicious for this line of questioning?

-----

Vi is starting to make less and less sense.

Nothing new there

[Vi]

Not the direction I was going with that, although the initial idea that started this thought process was similar.

I'm willing to let the suspicion simmer for now, at any rate.

[Vi]

Incidentally, Porkens, you were watching something. Are you still watching, is it can be Happy Fun Reveal Time pleez, etc.

[Vi]

VI: DRK and Sotty7 crossvote eachother on page 1, claim to have never played together before, and then busily ignore eachother for the rest of the game.

I dunno maybe it's nothin

YO, PORKENS, I'M REALLY HAPPY FOR YOU, I'M GONNA LET YOU FINISH, BUT oh wait you're already finished

So, seriously, why are you totally underperforming in this game?

VI

Daykill: Porkens

[Vi]

'Nice to see I'm loved by everyone today.

There's really nowhere I can go at this point as far as pressing my suspicions without resorting to *dramatic chords* desperate measures.
Which I fully plan to do, but I'm still deciding on the hows and the whens.

[Vi]

I am seriously though, what do you think of the DRK and SOTTY (non)connection?

I dunno maybe

it's nothin

sigma, how many scum do you believe are left in this game?

[Vi]

*turns to broader audience* Is everyone in agreement with that?

[Vi]

If the two above posters would respond to my question.

Also throwing imaginality's selective participation out there - only responding to direct questions and whatever would get pops lynched.

[Vi]

@Vi, why are you so interested in the setup design?

I believe all of you are wrong. 3 Mafia and a Survivor means that two mislynches theoretically end the game; I would consider it worse than 8-3-SK (a setup that has burned people because Town can lynch correctly each Day after Day 1 and still lose, but at least there's a possibility of crosskills). To my knowledge 9-2-Survivor is considered balanced.

In the event that there is one scum remaining, associative tells among the living are useless and more importantly I can proceed with the aforementioned desperate measures. In the event that I'm wrong, Bad Things can potentially happen by assuming otherwise.

If nothing else it gets people to talk and not lurk, not that you're doing a very good job of that anyway.

At this point I don't know what to do and am generally frustrated considering how deadline crept up yesterday and since the

mod

doesn't like telling us in his vote counts when the deadline is it'll probably happen again today.

Sorry, I did forget to put it into the last votecount. For the future reference of all players, according to the rules of the game, days are two weeks long and may be extended once if a majority of the players wish for it or at my disgression (as was the case during D1).

(September 30. Nine and a half days.)

[Vi]

Sure.
8/12 Town Day 1
7/11 Town Night 1
6/10 Town Day 2
5/9 Town Night 2
4/8 Town Day 3

4/8 is 50% of the Town. At that point the Survivor can claim and vote No Lynch. At that point it becomes virtually impossible for the Town to win - they can't lynch scum unless they feel like bussing for some reason, and they certainly aren't going to NK the Survivor so the problem won't go away. They can try to lynch the Survivor, but after that Night the Mafia actually does make up 50% of the players and thus wins. And of course the Mafia forcelynching No Lynch twice wins the game.

Survivor is scum. This is why standard practice is to lynch them on sight.

----

I acknowledge the DRK case as not terribly bad. I still would like to lynch imaginality though.

[Vi]

@Vi, why are you so interested in the setup design?

I believe all of you are wrong. 3 Mafia and a Survivor means that two mislynches theoretically end the game; I would consider it worse than 8-3-SK (a setup that has burned people because Town can lynch correctly each Day after Day 1 and still lose, but at least there's a possibility of crosskills). To my knowledge 9-2-Survivor is considered balanced.

But doesn't 2 mafia and a survivor means two correct lynches and the town wins? That doesn't seem incredibility balanced to me either.

10-2 Mountainous is considered balanced, never mind that scum pretty much always win Vanilla-only games. Basically, it's fine.

I threw that question into the survey to see who would respond with OMG UR SETUP SPECULATING or something like that.

Am I scum, Sotty?

[Vi]

I'm not really in favor of an afatchic lynch so much as an afatchic replacement.

Speculating about the ammount is not going to help finding scum.

It could, actually. But we'll leave that as a disagreement.
More doing things other than riding the easy wagon and less complaining about easy-to-complain-about things please.

[Vi]

@Vi: please describe what happened between you and wiploc in N779.

Chainys and RedCoyote have still not been heard from. We could pressure them to talk by putting three votes on each. (This would have the added benefit of identifying the scum who put the third votes on them.)

From a previous game, I know RedCoyote doesn't post on weekends.
That and your idea is retarded at best and scummy at worst.
Unvote: jayfin3
Vote: wiploc (L-2)
Oh look, a third vote on someone.

From my mercifully short career as an IC, page 1. wiploc decided to take that middle sentence personally and start repeating "Vi's either a jerk, or scum". Fortunately the possibility of me being both didn't occur to him, and plenty of people were there to reassure him that yes, I actually am a jerk on occasion. (I was Town; wiploc was also Town.)
Following this for the next 20 pages or so he proceeded to lurk, tunnel on me for a while, and generally do weird things that didn't change my read on him.

To answer your next question, the qualitative difference between wiploc and Y.C. was that wiploc's general hate against me was entirely defensive. The Y.C. situation came from an attack he made on me.

[Vi]

I expect that both Cruciare and DeathRowKitty are Town tbh.

[Vi]

Anything he's done on day 2 to contribute to that(...)?

The answer to this is more or less the same as

Anything he's done on day 2(...)?

[Vi]

First of all: Vi's 'desperate measures' comment is fairly transparent. If I picked up on it on a cursory read-through I'm sure the scum has/have. Vi, I think you should explain exactly what you meant by that. This is fairly important.

I'll pass on this for now.

[Vi]

Five and a half days.

[Vi]

Who else do you suspect other than imaginality?

You.
Porkens.
I'm not sure if I suspect jammer/charter or not.

I'm pretty confident everyone else is Town.

[Vi]

Who else do you suspect other than imaginality?

You.
Porkens.
I'm not sure if I suspect jammer/charter or not.

I'm pretty confident everyone else is Town.

Well how about you elaborate on your suspicions? Simply counting down the days isn't helpful to anyone.

The only person named in that post that I have not expressed my suspicion of in clear terms is jammer, and that's because while jammer looks terribly scummy, he does a good job of doing that as either alignment. I think I can have a better read on charter when and if he comes around to post.

Counting down days should be a hint for people to

stop stalling until deadline

.

[Vi]

Yes, but what have you done lately?

There is not much to do lately because all of the cases coming in (DRK, Cruciare) are against people I believe are Town, and I have said as much.

You have alluded to some suspicion of me, I have no idea why.

Understandable.
I also believe that your vote on me is poorly reasoned and you aren't letting go of it, but that's your prerogative, we've already been over that, etc.

Porkens I have a slightly better idea as to why, still not great.

Porkens is deliberately underperforming in this game, and I'm disappointed nobody else has noticed this. Misrepresenting this suspicion in 293 adds to this.

And your imaginality case amounts to "what I said yesterday."

And a little more too, but this ignores that

imaginality has done little today

. Do you expect a case to get better when the target doesn't post at all?

To answer your next question I do see imaginality's posts against Cruciare and DRK. I think they're terribly misguided at best, but I don't think the basis of his suspicion (pushing to make the D1 dilemma pops vs. jammer) is unfounded.

I look at your posts and don't really see you pushing us anywhere.

Likewise with you and Porkens.

-----

@Porkens: I would be careful where you go with that.

[Vi]

EBWOP:

To answer your next question I do see imaginality's posts against Cruciare

and DRK

.

Reading comprehension failure.

[Vi]

I have more to say about Vi, but that can wait for now.

Quick summary?

[Vi]

Porkens is deliberately underperforming in this game, and I'm disappointed nobody else has noticed this. Misrepresenting this suspicion in 293 adds to this.

I defy you to prove that. I may be underperforming, but if so it isn't intentional (not like in that one game where I was doing it on purpose).

Or have I been mistaken all game and you're not this Porkens?
As for that other game, I thought you were doing pretty awesome in it tbh.

Now we fight with knives about 293: There was the outline of a case on me, and people were starting, typically, to say "oh yeah I see it on porkens" and the like. I wanted to nip that right in the bud. I was not being erratic, it was never pointed out where I was being erratic I DID NOT BRING THE TERM ERRATIC into the conversation. It was, in fact, the entire prmis of the things said against me.

Nnnnnnnno, it wasn't. The only person who said "erratic" was pops, whose words were pretty dismissable even before he flipped. This is what people said before you flipped out about being accused.

[Who do you find most suspicious?]

porkens

I once again find myself agreeing with Porkens post 286. But still I don't know who he finds the most suspicious. The vote on TMJ feels like a settle vote (a vote that is not for a claimed doc) and he didn't name a second suspect when asked. Why the secrecy?

Porkens is almost not on

[my lynch list]

.

I was pressed for a second most suspicious person, so i say porkens and the vague reason for

[his TMJ vote]

. I don't feel the need to develop a strong second cantidate until TMJ flips or i'm lynched or nightkilled anyway. After TMJ flips i have more information.

I endorse this questioning of Porkens by Sotty7. To that end, I would like to add my own question.

The next couple days in the game could drastically change the effects of

[pops']

claim.

How so?

So with your vote on TMJ Porkens, does that mean he is your number one right now? Who's your number two?

Meanwhile what you defended against was:

The case on me seems to be:

erratic behavior (which hasn't been cited, only fabricated)
a pro-town suggestion (too pro-town must be scum)

in short; crap

...so I believe I'm being very reasonable in saying you misrepresented the suspicion against you to the point where it was no longer recognizable (I even had to

ask

you where you got the term "erratic" from).

-----

@imaginality: Go on.

[Vi]

DRK, do you feel "boxed in" by having to suspect the {DRK, Cruciare, imaginality} group?
I dislike votes chosen by process of elimination - especially in this case when you have specifically said you're unimpressed by the case on imaginality.

My initial response to your predicament was that you were well-meaning but got caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. Rereading your posts, that read is getting strained - particularly because if there is only one scum left and you are that scum, you have a good reason to please everyone you can, which to a degree it seems like you're trying to do with the slashing of essentially everyone off your list of suspicion.

That was a worthwhile reread; thanks for asking me why I had a gut Town read on you~

[Vi]

If imaginality were everyone's top suspect there wouldn't be a 4-3 split in the votes. As it is I will be shocked and amazed if Ojanen is scum.

I don't think you're going in any right directions with this take on how many scum there are. You already know my answer to how many Mafia I think there are ITT though.

If you have nothing

strongly

against lynching imaginality, why make the giant WHOAHEYOBVIOUSDERAILMENTPOST?

There's one person that's getting the silent treatment in your wall - jammer/charter. Thoughts?

-----

I am pretty sure it is Vi and Cruciare.

You couldn't be more wrong.
...well, you COULD, but it would take noticeably more effort to get people to believe you.

[Vi]

Ojanen's play since he has replaced in has been obvTown.

ACCEPT IT

Why don't you think so?

Acknowledged on the second point.

I disagree with your disagreement that jammer's actions may have been bussing, considering--

TMJ is well, TMJ. Looking at it, I doubt you could draw a solid conclusion out of him later. Is it part of his playing style or is it real scummy behaviour.

If we don´t lynch him today, I think we are likely to lynch him at some point later in the game.

Counterquestion. What would you expect scum to do when confronted with Townpops' claim?

To contrast, what would you expect Town to do when confronted with ?pops' claim?

1) Get the heck off the wagon.

2) Question the claim.

I am pretty much voting TMJ over pops becouse of pops doc claim, yes.

Eagerly awaiting charter's reasoning for me and Cruciare being the scummiest. Your sec is up.

[Vi]

0.0;;

I appear to have been grossly mistaken. It's time for me to play my hand.

First thing: I am not the Cop. Sorry to disappoint.
Second thing: My suspicion of Sotty (or at the time James.Denholm) originated here--

I don't think I'm going to give you a "baseline meta read", or allow you to gain data from me to continue what looks to me like the basis of some pretty complex role-fishing.

Yes it is! (S?)He could be scum, and that could be some complex rolefishing going on there!

If I'm a PR, like hell I'm going to give the scum the slightest clue at this early stage.

...and then he proceeds to NOT answer the survey.
This is the first time that I've tried a survey, and (yes, to my surprise) it actually DID do some successful rolefishing - this is James.D essentially claiming notVanilla. In other words, James.D was either a power role or Mafia.

Okay, so that's fine, no reason to make a fuss over it when it will come out later. I wrote James.D and later Sotty off for D1.
My suspicion of Sotty started D2 when she began tunneling on me. With the knowledge of a Framer, I expected there to be a Cop in the setup. I knew she was not a Cop because she was going after

moi

and the Framer never got a chance to target me. That left scum.
Obviously I couldn't say as much inthread, because if I was

wrong

(which

never

happens ) I would be outing a power role, so when my first attempt to pressure Sotty failed I simply fell back.

Needlessly to say, the thought that she could be some other role never occurred to me. I don't think I've ever been accused of being brilliant.

So imaginality's Neighbor claim then makes the world make sense again.

In addition, my philosophy on Neighbors is and has been for a while now that it functions as a directed one-shot Cop investigation. Given that Sotty is not willing to vote imaginality and vice versa, I am trusting in your mutual competence to say you both believe you are Town, and are probably right about each other.

In summary, my suspicion of Sotty just turned to vapor and I'm not at all interested in an imaginality wagon. Apologies for giving the two of you a hard time.

Unvote: imaginality
Vote: charter

(L-5)
You're replacing my new scummiest player, your intro post accuses two people I'm pretty certain are Town, and your sec for explaining yourself is long since up.
I can more readily believe that Porkens is Town than jammer, and those are my only two remaining suspects, so.

[Vi]

Scum Masons should be a banned role. *long MD argument with Yos2 goes here*

Scum

Neighbors

are obviously possible, but I haven't seen them very often. In addition and in reference to my previous comment, it's much harder to fake being Town in a QuickTopic; scum Neighbors are more likely to off their Neighbor at the first opportunity than actually try to fake being Town at Night.
Since Sotty and imaginality obviously seem to trust each other and I don't think either one is all that gullible, I think it's a safe bet that they're both Town.

Or to put it very simply, your vote on imaginality is delusional at best. *smiles pleasantly while baring fangs*

[Vi]

Vi's voting at the end of day one. Post 294, he unvotes Pops and claims he's going to be voting TMJ. Unvoting like that right before deadline is antitown, and his claim of going to vote for TMJ within 24 hours seems baseless and scummy, since it didn't actually happen (he put his vote back on pops) and TMJ was scum. I don't understand why he unvoted at all.

This is reaching. "Unvoting like that right before deadline is antitown"? Why is that, in light of the fact that I clearly was going to be around again in the ~24 hours before deadline?
I unvoted pops on Porkens' advice (the Doc claim, while terrible, would eventually come back to incriminate him) but I revoted him because I had no faith in pops' integrity. And hey, I was right. Vindication has taken place.
Yes, I thought TMJ was a scapegoat lynch to take pressure off pops. I was obviously surprised at his flip.

I like my vote *hugs vote*

[Vi]

This is reaching. "Unvoting like that right before deadline is antitown"? Why is that, in light of the fact that I clearly was going to be around again in the ~24 hours before deadline?

Feel free to answer this a-ny-time now.

Not thinking a scumbag is scum IS a scumtell, I don't see what you're trying to argue here. You argued FOR a pops lynch, which is scummy, regardless of whether pops was telling the truth or not.

And that seems to be the entirety of the case on me, ignoring everything else that's happened and dismissing the chance that I was half-wrong (not even fully and inexcusably wrong).

You're not even trying. Lynch plz :arrow:

----

Three and a half days. We're not lynching imaginality. Step on it.

[Vi]

Unvoting before deadline is antitown. (...)

You are taking backwards steps in lynching scum.

Okay, so what

should

I have done in that situation?

You are waffling, and not actually taking a stance on the lynch. You are waiting to see where it will be safe to commit, so you don't have to flip flop.

I'm fairly positive my opinions of pops and TMJ were well-established (probably lying but I can't do anything about it and unrepentantly scummy to the point where I don't know what to do with him, respectively), so it's pretty hard to say that I was waffling with a straight face.

Even if you were going to be back before deadline, it's scummy. At that point, the votes were pretty much in a deadlock, therefore by abstaining from voting, you are waiting to reassess at a later time, which is scummy.

If I were indeed stalling, wouldn't I have come back sometime after someone else had voted for pops or TMJ? And if I were interested in my own personal safety, wouldn't it have been much easier to just follow Porkens' lead and not lynch the claimed Doctor? Instead, I chose to take a risky position. Why? Because I'm going to find the scum, and if someone calls me scummy for it and/or if I get lynched for it that sounds like a terrible job on everyone else's part. Lo and behold, I

was

indeed correct about pops being scum; I've already shown why pushing for the Doctor's lynch would have been too risky for moderate-to-newb-level scum to try, and therefore yes - I believe TMJ was very bussable D1.
Who fits the positions of "people likely to bus TMJ" according to the vote record? Porkens and jammer. Oh, those names again.

Incidentally, charter. With the wagons and politics and hoopla going on with 84 hours to deadline, which wagon(s) will you back today?

-----

Porkens 510 is definitely not easing my mind. On the other hand, it kind of fits the Arilou avatar.

[Vi]

I'm guessing you missed this with all the neighbor drama.

I do have to ask...

@Col.Cathart: Before you read too much into that, consider--

just realize I haven't

post

here...again

*

haunt

the thread*

good luck to the remaining player...

Bad English FTL.

@Vi, why are you so interested in the setup design?

I believe all of you are wrong. 3 Mafia and a Survivor means that two mislynches theoretically end the game; I would consider it worse than 8-3-SK (a setup that has burned people because Town can lynch correctly each Day after Day 1 and still lose, but at least there's a possibility of crosskills). To my knowledge 9-2-Survivor is considered balanced.

What changed in this time? You were quick to dismiss CC picking up on TMJ talking about the remaining "player". However, according to post 395, you believed since Pops flip that there was only two scum.

Good question.
While I believe there is only one scum left I would not take TMJ's broken English as

confirmation

of it.
(However, I believe that Col.Cathart jumping on it as a clue is a pretty solid Town-tell.)

While I acknowledge that Cruciare #33 was not a helpful post (and I've said as much) I disapprove of the Cruciare lynch.

[Vi]

Many of the first

several

pages are

wasted

with Vi's questions and Cruciare (etc.)

Once again for emphasis,

[Vi]

I don't approve of either of your lynches.
But if I had to choose, I would go for DRK.

[Vi]

Cut by charter: You weren't supposed to say it before DRK had a chance to respond >.>

DRK gets one post to convince me not to hammer~

[Vi]

I am going to start out with a

Vote Vi

because I think there is more support for a Vi wagon than Cruciare and also because I thought post 541 was incredibly fishy. More from me later.

I'd love to know why.

charter is effectively confirmed Town, so my suspect list is down to... one and one quarter people. imaginality is the 1/4. The 1 is...

Vote: Porkens

(L-4)

[Vi]

charter is effectively confirmed Town

how?

...actually, I believe I misread.

every player in this game received the "Vanilla Townie" post

@mod: Please explain this.

[Vi]

It's self-explanatory, isn't it?

I would like clarification.
If it's what I think it's saying, my reads are going to jumble again.

[Vi]

All players, regardless of alignment, had recieved the "Vanilla Townie" role PM and the flavor that went along with it. Because I wasn't clear enough about that in the rules, D2 was ended before any speculation about that could take place.

That... screws up a lot of things.

I have a lot of questions now, almost all of which will be seen as anti-Town. So instead I'm going to let some other people talk for a while.

Sotty, what did you and imaginality talk about last Night?

[Vi]

[after the Cop claim]

...and once again that changes things. I thought sigma was the Cop tbh.

A Framer and a Godfather in the same game, while technically possible and technically not bastardish, is not something you see often at all for good reason. So I'm willing to believe the innocent on Porkens.

Even after the mod clarification, I'm having a hard time seeing charter as something other than Vanilla Townie. Had it been common knowledge that everyone had the V. Townie Role PM, that sort of incident couldn't have started and been taken seriously by anyone.

Cut by Col.Cathart:

Oh, so charter's definitely V. Town then.

What's stiking is that these NKs seem... bizarre, tbh. I have to question the experience of the person who's making them.

And I'm being cut again by something... bizarre.

[the Neighbor claim]

sigma was the true swing vote in TMJ vs. pops, so I'm inclined to believe him.

What

that

means... is that I've been wrong about everything except pops >.>

Unvote: charter

I'm counting this as an unvote

-----

So... here's where I'm at for this five minutes.

charter is effectively Town.
sigma, who is already credible, makes a claim to be a Neighbor with someone that I've been giving too much credit to throughout.
Cathart is an un-counterclaimed Cop.
Porkens is investigated innocent.
Sotty and imaginality are both Neighbors as well.

This leaves... Sotty, imaginality, and Cruciare.

Question @sigma: Why do you have a gut Town-read on Cruciare?

[Vi]

@Sotty the 7th: What do you think of my reason for believing sigma?

sigma was the true swing vote in TMJ vs. pops, so I'm inclined to believe him.

[Vi]

Hmm, you're right, that is fishing. And really blatantly as well. However, I'm not sure it makes him scum (though he shouldn't have done it). It seems, to me, that he is more likely to be town ensuring that Vi isn't setting up a good fakeclaim later, as opposed to scum trying to find the cop.

Vi's response to it is questionable as well. If someone had asked me if I was cop, I'd immediately vote them and call for their lynch. Vi, instead, unvotes imaginality.

You seem to have

no idea

of the double standard you're using here.

Sotty, could you please explain your vote on me?

[Vi]

No. Instead of applying the blanket logic of "all rolefishers are scum" I looked at what he did and decided his rolefishing was a terrible idea, but unlikely to come from scum. I think if he was scum, he would have tried to get the cop to say something like "oh, I don't think Vi is cop".

And apparently I didn't think of this, or, I don't know, realize fully well that I was dropping potential hints of extra knowledge and thus understand WHY people may have thought I was the Cop?

If I'm scum, my play in this game has been suicidal. Intentionally so.

It also helps that in response to his fishing, you unvoted, like you were trying to get him off your back or something.

Why would I want to do that? imaginality never voted for me or even expressed suspicion of me.

-----

The fact you are not the cop while dropping several soft claim hints.

I'm not the Cop. However, I (thought I) deduced three things that I didn't want to pull out unless I thought it would go somewhere.
*Sotty7 is a power role, or scum.
*sigma is most likely the Cop.
*Cruciare is almost certainly the Doctor.
This is why I've been on Cruciare's side the whole time - his play is textbook Doc play. And that's also why I think the scum can't be that experienced for not offing him considering that there have been a few people (DRK and myself, OTH) who were pretty explicit that they had veiled reasons for wanting him alive.

The complete no sell of DRK's claims here and here

You don't think that the point about the name of the Vanilla role held

any

merit? I must disagree, and surely you would not as well--

Hrmm... The football stuff is what made me say DRK wasn't the lynch, but I see charter's point about name claim now. Not good.

Yet post 543 is more of the role PM but without the true name (at least the one in my PM) Then Sigma posts and says another name that is different to mine.

Incidentally, sigma (apparently?) didn't know the name of the V. Townie role in this game either... which paired with his claim makes sense.

[Vi]

How is Cruciare's play text book doc play? What do you think of the neighbor claim now?

Everyone on the pops wagon but Cruciare unvoted pops after he claimed Doctor.
Cruciare expressed obvious distrust of the Doc claim, going so far as to ask if it would be okay to want to lynch him anyway.
Yes, those are screaming "I know pops isn't a Doctor".

As far as the Neighbor claims, I don't see a reason to doubt them all - as far as being Neighbors goes.

I don't think that you believe your own reasons for voting me.

That aside, with both neighbors believing in their respective partner, doesn't that make Vi the best lynch?

...and this political justification for my lynch just bolsters that.

-----

Re. me rolefishing about Vi - charter is on the money with why I pushed for Vi to claim or deny being cop. Vi's denial increases my suspicions because there's definitely evidence of soft-claiming there.

Either English is not your first language after all, or you completely missed my explanations

at length

of what I've been talking about by "desperate measures".

I disagree with Vi in 591 - sigma only joined the TMJ wagon when it was inevitable TMJ would get lynched.

At the time of sigma's switch, the vote count was 6-5 -

pops'

favor. TMJ was only inevitably lynched

because

of sigma's switch.

Vote: Sotty7

(L-4)

[Vi]

If you believe in your own reasons for voting me, then why was your response (597) to my defense (596) about something entirely tangential?

[Vi]

...

Realistically speaking, yes, I'm the best lynch today. Rationales aside I don't deny that some things I've said/done look very scummy; and between two sets of Neighbors, an investigated innocent, and a heavily-outed V. Townie that people like a whole lot more, I'm pretty outclassed in being probTown just from a broad perspective. Last, Fall Break started today, and I'm looking forward to

a six-hour drive one way

cooler weather and a night sky that isn't ruined by light pollution. I don't want to have this game on my mind when anything I do will probably be in vain anyway.

Thus. I will

self-hammer

if placed at L-1. (Why hammer myself instead of voting myself outright? Mostly for theatrical purposes )
This offer is only good until I leave tomorrow morning; after that you can get your OWN hammer vote.

I trust you will find that there will not be much of a difference between now and Day 4 if I'm lynched tonight (RL time), except that you'll be able to focus on finding actual Mafiosi.
My request - please take it - is that you

not let Porkens coast to endgame

, mostly because "coasting" describes his play up until this point nicely. In other words, I don't think the scum HAS to be one of the four Neighbors (or charter) and I

do

believe it's conceivable that he's a Godfather and the Cop was a giant red herring.

I apologize for the inconvenience.

Unvote: Sotty7
Vote: Porkens

(L-4)

[Vi]

Time's up. Toodles!

[Vi]

Vi dangling the self hammer makes me ugh. All WIFOM aside, it's not really something you see scum be willing to offer up.

Scum have more motive to offer it than town, though, no?

Scum priority: Survival
Town priority: Helping find scum

[Vi]

'Hope the wagon's useful, at least~

By the way, don't remember me by this game v.v

[Vi]

so bad at mafia.

i know, right

[Vi]

Vi, which neighbor woudl you want lynched and why?

Spoken like someone who clearly has no idea where my vote is.

[Vi]

<sigh> my bad, I thought you were still voting for

me

The last time I checked, I was~

[Vi]

While in a sense that IS true, most of the time we try to avoid lynching people who you don't expect to flip scum~

To answer your next question, I will admit that my gambit was made of accepting the inevitable and getting it over with before a time when I wouldn't have been able to put much time/effort into this game (now). I'm disappointed more people didn't post in that interval tbh, but etc. And behold and lo, I didn't have to self-hammer at all~

And part of why I went into accepting the inevitable was because if all of those conversations are unaltered, they all sound Town to me, so the choice became
1) Lynch the Cop-investigated innocent I've been bothered by all game
2) Lynch me
3) Lynch some random person I don't really believe is scum

[Vi]

I was snowed in the whole time. Good job, scum.

charter has already mentioned my thoughts about the setup. Good job with the two sets of Neighbors, bad job with the Survivor and three Mafiosi.

and putting a Cop in in the first place

[Vi]

I don't think the setup is weighed against the town. The cop, rightly so, isn't all powerful. It had a 50% of hitting scum and a 50% of being wrong on a given night (which isn't all that bad).

No, it's still bad.
The only thing worse than a Cop is a Cop that's wrong when nobody in the Town expects it.

[Vi]

I do feel bad about lynching Vi.... I was so sure you were scum

I agreed to be lynched because I couldn't blame you for thinking that.
There's not much to say or do about that except that I'll do better next time.