Mini 857 Disney Movie Mafia 2 - The Classics (Roll Credits)

[MonkeyMan576]

Vote: Brandi

One of the few players I'm not familiar with.

[MonkeyMan576]

LOL, do be honest I didn't even see your vote until after I voted. But I usually vote for whoever stands out in the RVS.

[MonkeyMan576]

Why wouldn't you read through the other posts before just voting?

I did read some, but usually the RVS isn't meant to be taken seriously. Hence the term random votes.

[MonkeyMan576]

Why wouldn't you read through the other posts before just voting?

I did read some, but usually the RVS isn't meant to be taken seriously. Hence the term random votes.

I've been playing here for awhile. I know what RVS is for and what it potentially starts. So you don't need to talk down at me. I'd greatly appreciate it.

Then don't vote me for something as petty as voting for the same reason you did, when it had nothing to do with you.

[MonkeyMan576]

Well, I find it odd that you would vote the same way I did, especially if you claim to not have read the whole thread to that point, which really wasn't that many posts.

No you're right, I voted the same way you did on purpose.

Really, I think it it's pretty easy to see that there are a lot of veteran players in this game, so it's not all that much of a stretch that we could have voted the same way. Yes, it's kind of a weird thing to happen, but obviously great minds think alike or something like that.

[MonkeyMan576]

Starbuck/Brandi/Monkey, any opinions so far?

Crazy, fair enough.

Starbuck, do you consider your vote on Monkey to be a jokevote? Why or why not? Do you buy his explanation? If not, why? If so, why no unvote?

Monkey, why do you seem to think nothing comes from the RVS? How seriously do you take Starbuck's vote on you? Do you find her scummy?

Everyone, what do you think of Gorrad?

Starbuck's vote was obviously not random, but without good reasoning either. I'm not sure that it's scummy, but I'd be on the lookout for her reasoning on future votes.

[MonkeyMan576]

I'm just trying to start discussion, and you voting for Brandi for the exact same reason I did is reason enough for me.

Also, there's no reason for you to be condescending.

I'm not being condencending, I'm saying there are ways you can "start discussion" without a poor-reasoned vote.

[MonkeyMan576]

Who says my vote is poor-reasoned? My poor-reasoned vote got a pretty overdefensive reaction out of you.

I think if I didn't react to a poor-reasoned vote, it would be scummy. First you said you voted to create discussion, then you said you voted to get a reaction. I don't think you really know why you voted, and just don't want to admit it.

[MonkeyMan576]

@SC: Starbuck is the one causing the hissy fit. All I asked was for her to admit her vote wasn't serious, but she refuses. She's pressing hard for a reaction, without regard to the logic of what she's saying or doing.

[MonkeyMan576]

Okay, this is just getting stupid. Let me know when you guys want to move on.

[MonkeyMan576]

I am here. I am choosing not to respond in protest, which is what I originally said.

[MonkeyMan576]

I am here. I am choosing not to respond in protest, which is what I originally said.

If you don't like the wagon on you, then do something about it. "Protesting" is asinine and doesn't do anything to help the town. If you really feel that we are somehow being "unfair" then realize that this is a game, and sometimes "unfair" things happen. Sitting out and pouting until things go your way is something that a petulant child would do.

I think it's pretty clear Starbuck is tunneling and taking a something silly(me voting for the same reason she did) out of proportion. It was totally a coincedence. The only thing I'm guilty of is not reading every post. A lot of people seem willing to lynch someone over that, and it's quite disturbing.

[MonkeyMan576]

I'm definitely not tunneling. I have focused on others as well, but you are acting immature and rude to everyone else in this game. And your appeals to emotion really aren't helping your case with me which is why my vote hasn't moved.


And I'm not taking what you did out of proportion. It's how you reacted to the situation. You straight up left the game and said that you weren't coming back until the lynch was off you. Now, in my eyes, that means I just caught scum.

You clearly have no interest in discussion, just pointing fingers and making accusations. That's why I left the game. You can think whatever you want.

[MonkeyMan576]

Sorry, alt.

[MonkeyMan576]

As has been said multiple times already, this is not a place where we are all buddy-buddy all the time. This is a game, and we are all playing to win. If you can't handle accusations being thrown at you, be they warranted or unwarranted, then you should ask to be replaced and allow someone who can handle it to play in your stead.

Monkey, by sitting out in protest you are not helping the town at all. As such, I will

vote: Monkeyman576

for being generally unhelpful to the town and stalling further discussion of anything in this game because of your protest.

Gorrad, you say you randomly didn't vote, but it is quite evident that you made a conscious decision not to vote in the RVS, so why would you play it off like that?

I'm not expecting anyone to be buddy buddy with me, but if someone is overreaching an argument early in day 1 I *am* going to protest. Since she, nor anyone else, was listening to reason, I was forced to try other tactics.

[MonkeyMan576]

Your other tactics are scummy.

Then lynch me, you obviously aren't going to listen to me. Don't be suprised when I flip town though.

[MonkeyMan576]

I'm more than willing to discuss, but I'm not going to be lectured by you, the princess of maturity.

[MonkeyMan576]

Sorry, alt

Unvote
Vote: Semioldguy

[MonkeyMan576]

Ugh, alt again, sorry.

FOS: Brandi

[MonkeyMan576]

I have always viewed this question as a pro-town question. Especially when asked to a player that has recently been under a lot of fire.

You have cast suspicion on SOG, a player supporting your lynch who doesn't really stand out as much.

Depending on who you claim to view as townie and why, you might look more pro-town, or you might look scummy.

In many games I've been in, it's always been a very common thing for multiple players to give their opinions on who they view as townie, and why, and who they view as scummy and why.

Please explain to me what type of "advantage" scum might gain over the town by making such an inquiry? Because quite frankly that doesn't make any sense at all to me.

Well, they'd know who to NK, for one, just like they want to get rid of confirmed town, they'd want to get rid of speculated town too.

[MonkeyMan576]

O_o

Um. Scum knows who the town is... they don't need to *guess* to hit town. And how exactly does your opinion on who is town make them "confirmed" ?

I seriously doubt any scum in ANY game would ever use other players opinions of who's townie or not to direct their kills. That is just senseless.

That's not necessarily true that scum know who every town is...
you're more suspicious at this point than semioldguy, so...

Unvote:
Vote: Brandi

[MonkeyMan576]

The scum know who isn't them, which is just as good as being the rest of the town since they would need to eliminate them to win the game.

I wouldn't say it's "just as good", some roles are more dangerous than others.

[MonkeyMan576]

well, yes, but just because you speculate that someone is town, doesn't mean they have a special role unless they have claimed

There are possible third party roles as well as town and scum.

[MonkeyMan576]

i know that, but that is not what i am saying, speculating someone is town really doesn't help the scum

There's nothing wrong with saying someone is town, it's someone asking someone else that seems scummy.

[MonkeyMan576]

That's not necessarily true that scum know who every town is...

The mafia knows everyone who isn't scum. That is a fact. Asking someone who they think is town is not, and has never been, a scum tactic. Opinions and information help the

TOWN.

You've said nothing to convince me of otherwise.

Also, bringing up 3rd parties? I don't think scum would care if they hit town or 3rd parties. Scum wins when they are the majority regardless. So even still, your point that scum is somehow HELPED by asking other players who they view is town is wrong.

Now, if someone were to ask "HEY. WHO DO YOU THINK IS A COP OR A DOCTOR!?" Now THAT would be scummy.

Scum doesn't rolefish for townies.

It's good to see you engaging in some actual discussion, though.

I disagree, scum would prefer a SK stay alive as opposed to a town power role. And I never said I opposed discussion, I opposed the treatment by Starbuck and no one bothering to question her.

[MonkeyMan576]

Brandi,

if you were scum and asked everyone in the game who they think is town, and one name comes up on 8 people's townlists, aren't you more likely to kill that player? I don't know about you, but if I were scum, I wouldn't want a player around who everyone thinks is town. But if half of those 8 people refused to answer the question, the scum may not realize how many people see this player as likely town. So as frustrating as it can be, someone not giving all of their reads is actually a good thing.

--------------------

Monkey,

I disagree about SKs. Scum want them gone ASAP. As long as there is a role that can kill at night opposing them (vig/SK), scum not only have to avoid the lynch, but a NK as well. They are no longer safe at night. So their odds of dying increase twice as much just by having a vig or SK alive. So yeah, they want SKs gone and if one is in the game, that's who they would, or at least should, go after.

The only reason I say that is that SK are more likely to hit town than scum at least early game. Obviously the SK has to go at some point, but my point is that one playing asking another player about who they think is town sounds like scum trying to get ideas on who to kill. Also it can lead to role speculation.

[MonkeyMan576]

Unvote:
Vote: Semioldguy

He's attacked my posting, yet he's only posted like four times so far, and it's all pretty much been related to me(ie following Starbuck). He's been doing no scumhunting on his own.

This is OMGUS, not to mention that you've pretty much made yourself the topic of discussion through your actions.

Nothing seems off. Some players dislike random voting and will use other means to generate discussion (for example, The Fonz asks everybody questions).

What do you expect me to give you, a 25-page report on him? I am not Gorrad; therefore, I cannot tell you his thought processes other than what he has said already about them. I can make educated guesses, but even those are wrong. If there were no reactions to what he did, this conversation would not be happening.

Thanks for conceding your original point.

You're quite welcome, sir.

O_o

Um. Scum knows who the town is... they don't need to *guess* to hit town. And how exactly does your opinion on who is town make them "confirmed" ?

I seriously doubt any scum in ANY game would ever use other players opinions of who's townie or not to direct their kills. That is just senseless.

That's not necessarily true that scum know who every town is...
you're more suspicious at this point than semioldguy, so...

Unvote:
Vote: Brandi

Scene 117: MonkeyMan576 commits OMGUS, take 2.

It's not OMGUS if my point is valid. What would you have me do, NOT vote who I see as the scummist?

[MonkeyMan576]

First you vote semioldguy for attacking you, then Brandi gets on your case and you switch your vote to her for a reason I can't figure out. Tell me those are townie things to be doing.

Yes, it is townie to point out someone for lack of scumhunting and the next person for asking who is town.

[MonkeyMan576]

semioldguy is not scumhunting? *scoffs*

Also, you're misrepresenting Brandi. She asked for who you

THINK

is town, not who

DEFINITIVELY

is town. She wants your opinion, and you're not giving it to her.

That's right, I think it's scummy to ask for someone's opinion on who is town. I don't want to help scum, so I'm not answering the question. Do you think all questions should be answered weather they are pro-town questions or not?

[MonkeyMan576]

And I never said I opposed discussion, I opposed the treatment by Starbuck and no one bothering to question her.

What treatment? I never ad hom attacked you. I got us out of RVS, and you have been overreacting to anything and everything. Do me a favor and quit blaming your behavior on me. You are better than this, I've seen it. So stop it.

Now who's not letting it go?

[MonkeyMan576]

semioldguy is not scumhunting? *scoffs*

Also, you're misrepresenting Brandi. She asked for who you

THINK

is town, not who

DEFINITIVELY

is town. She wants your opinion, and you're not giving it to her.

That's right, I think it's scummy to ask for someone's opinion on who is town. I don't want to help scum, so I'm not answering the question. Do you think all questions should be answered weather they are pro-town questions or not?

There are some that probably shouldn't be, but that does not give you the right to withhold your thoughts. Yes, if you're not careful with stating your town reads, you start painting NK targets. However, a scum group's agenda is to kill off people until they are the only ones around. If they kill somebody from another scum group, they're still a step closer to winning. Do you remember Mafia 91, where you were Sicilian Mafia and there was also a Japanese Mafia?

Yes, I remember. In my opinion, giving town reads is similar to claiming, and you don't want to give the mafia that kind of info unless you have to.

[MonkeyMan576]

In my opinion, giving town reads is similar to claiming, and you don't want to give the mafia that kind of info unless you have to.

Please enlighten me on the first part of this sentence.

Either way you're giving scum info about the possible makeup of the town.

[MonkeyMan576]

This wagon is so scum driven...

*sigh*

half the people on it are barely posting.

[MonkeyMan576]

Me pointing out who it is, and them suddenly jumping in and pretending to be active, does nothing to help. I think it's fairly obvious.

[MonkeyMan576]

How are you being pro-town, Starbuck? Aside from my wagon?

And I'm not being secretive. I'm encouraging players to think for themselves and not act like sheep.

[MonkeyMan576]

I think I've been more pro-town than you have been with taking your reactions and actions into consideration. My vote is placed on the person that I think is the scummiest.

I have been thinking for myself, thank you, but if you want others to trust you, especially if you are town. Why don't you point out who you need to point out? Secret agendas and not laying everything out are ways of scum, not town.

I don't have a secret agenda. Not wanting to point out who the town players are for scum *is* pro-town, and not laying out who was lurking brought you out, so that strategy obviously worked as well.

You're expending a great deal of energy trying to paint my aura for others. Why not let others think for themselves? Your pushiness, then lurkiness, then pushiness is very supsicius to me.

[MonkeyMan576]

It's also been the weekend. Are you really going to get on people for having a life? That's a rather scummy tactic.

Attacking lurkers is scummy now? Okay. But thanks for conceding my point.

[MonkeyMan576]

Quit twisting my words. I never said that attacking lurkers is scummy. You've made it sound like I have been lurking when I have not. It has been the weekend where most people normally have plans. I think your tactic of accusing people for having a life on their weekend is scummy. Now, if someone goes from last Weds until tomorrow or tonight for that matter without posting, then I consider that to be scummy.

Well, I think claiming you were busy when you were posting in other games is scummy. :shrug:

[MonkeyMan576]

Quit twisting my words. I never said that attacking lurkers is scummy. You've made it sound like I have been lurking when I have not. It has been the weekend where most people normally have plans. I think your tactic of accusing people for having a life on their weekend is scummy. Now, if someone goes from last Weds until tomorrow or tonight for that matter without posting, then I consider that to be scummy.

Well, I think claiming you were busy when you were posting in other games is scummy. :shrug:

Coming from you, Mr. "I'm not gonna post in here because everyone's being mean to me, but I'll post in all the rest of my games just not this one because I'm throwing a temper tantrum" doesn't really fly.

So pretty much because I caught up on my other games first, you are trying to say that I'm scummy? How about not using outside the game influences? I've been here and I've been active. I think you are just bitter.

So which was it, were you busy IRL or busy catching up in games? Mock me all you want, but you're the one that's been caught in a lie.

[MonkeyMan576]

And since lying is about as anti-town as you can get(you're lying about one or the other), I'll

Unvote:
Vote: Starbuck

[MonkeyMan576]

@Monkey
If you have suspects why aren't you making cases against them or doing any real scum-hunting? How is withholding your suspects and not trying to catch them in a slip, etc. a pro-town way of playing?

I'm not withholding my suspects. I've been doing quite a bit of scum-hunting, especially compared to you.

[MonkeyMan576]

From what I have seen, you have done a bunch of pouting and arguing with Starbuck and very little in the way of scumhunting. So I don't understand why you won't try and make a case against somebody that amounts to more than, people on my wagon have been lurking other people should do something about it.

I think wagon-lurking is a pretty significant scum-tell. Especially if you're the one that's starting the wagon, then you drop out of the discussion and just wait for more votes to pile on without contributing to the discussion, and then lie about your external circumstances. But that's just me.

[MonkeyMan576]

Why wouldn't you read through the other posts before just voting?

Because I'm scum, obviously...

[MonkeyMan576]

@Monkey
If you have suspects why aren't you making cases against them or doing any real scum-hunting? How is withholding your suspects and not trying to catch them in a slip, etc. a pro-town way of playing?

I'm not withholding my suspects. I've been doing quite a bit of scum-hunting, especially compared to you.

I'd like you to point out the posts that you were scum hunting because apparently, for the rest of us, it's really hard to tell.

I'm scumhunting on you right now.

[MonkeyMan576]

Starbuck's wording really strikes me as odd, in addition to her lurking and lying. Nearly every post she is trying hard to paint my alignment, rather than allowing people to come to their own conclusions, and now she's speaking for other players as well.

[MonkeyMan576]

Quit twisting my words. I never said that attacking lurkers is scummy. You've made it sound like I have been lurking when I have not. It has been the weekend where most people normally have plans. I think your tactic of accusing people for having a life on their weekend is scummy. Now, if someone goes from last Weds until tomorrow or tonight for that matter without posting, then I consider that to be scummy.

Well, I think claiming you were busy when you were posting in other games is scummy. :shrug:

Coming from you, Mr. "I'm not gonna post in here because everyone's being mean to me, but I'll post in all the rest of my games just not this one because I'm throwing a temper tantrum" doesn't really fly.

So pretty much because I caught up on my other games first, you are trying to say that I'm scummy? How about not using outside the game influences? I've been here and I've been active. I think you are just bitter.

So which was it, were you busy IRL or busy catching up in games? Mock me all you want, but you're the one that's been caught in a lie.

Thanks for convincing me that you're throwing crap at Starbuck to see what sticks. Nowhere on MS.net is there a rule that says you can't catch up on games before or after being busy with things in real life. Granted, she can't go to, for example, a pool parlor and check on her games there unless said parlor has a computer she's allowed to use, but this is a ridiculous thing to be attacking for.

I'm not "trying to see what sticks", I'm pointing out what I see as a valid point. She said she was busy IRL, but she had enough time to post in other games. There were active discussions going on in this games, it seems to me she was trying to avoid discussion and, yes, lurking. I think it's pretty scummy for someone who's leading a wagon to attack someone for not posting and then to not post themselves when it's convenient for them.

[MonkeyMan576]

I find Starbuck's and SC's cases on him horrible. They mainly just add up to "He's defending Monkey."

chamber does not have a good reason to be defending MonkeyMan576. It is impossible for him at this stage to be cop with an innocent on him, and there have been legitimate cases made against MonkeyMan576.

And SC's post right before mine is one of the biggest strawmans I've ever seen.

There are other things MonkeyMan576 is guilty of too, but I pointed that particular one out for ironic effect.

Mod: Please note sig.

You don't have any reason to be riding me so hard. So I posted the same reason as Starbuck and admitted to not reading that particular post. Then I left an argument because it was crap. That makes me scum?

[MonkeyMan576]

I find Starbuck's and SC's cases on him horrible. They mainly just add up to "He's defending Monkey."

chamber does not have a good reason to be defending MonkeyMan576. It is impossible for him at this stage to be cop with an innocent on him, and there have been legitimate cases made against MonkeyMan576.

And SC's post right before mine is one of the biggest strawmans I've ever seen.

There are other things MonkeyMan576 is guilty of too, but I pointed that particular one out for ironic effect.

Mod: Please note sig.

You don't have any reason to be riding me so hard. So I posted the same reason as Starbuck and admitted to not reading that particular post. Then I left an argument because it was crap. That makes me scum?

You've also attacked Starbuck over something that's pretty much pointless (was she busy IRL, or was she playing catch-up?).

I don't give a darn about your RVS actions, but as for leaving an argument for it being crap, that's not how you handle such a situation. You explain why it is crap. If you're good at doing that, then the tide changes in your favor.

BUT NO.

You had to go cry in a corner. So that bit, yes, makes you scum.

Why should I, when people like you won't be persueded by reason?

[MonkeyMan576]

So far, I don't see the case on Monkeyman as being better than my Brandi read. If what Semioldguy said is the only strikes against him, he's not worth lynching yet.

Please, for all our sakes, read the first game if you think my D1 lurking is suspect. It's generally what I do.

Scumtells are scumtells regardless of it's just what a player "does." No free passes for you.

This is 100% incorrect. Actions are independently(of person) pro or anti town but still dependent on setup. However a scumtell is something that indicates someone is scum. Therefore if its something someone does as either alignment then its not a scum tell.

If you're anti-town as town and anti-town as scum, it doesn't excuse you being anti-town.

[MonkeyMan576]

@Chamber - It seems to me like you are still trying to cover for Monkey's actions. I've played with him before and he is definitely capable of doing it himself, so why are you still doing it?

I also don't agree with you that either alignment would run like he did.

As SC has pointed out, you still haven't explained how my case is full of holes. Yes, I did originally vote Monkey and give a reason so for his reaction. He has done absolutely nothing to warrant me pulling my vote off him.



@ Crazy - What about chamber makes you think he's not scum? What about my case and about SC's case on chamber make it horrible? What makes SC's post 242 "one of the biggest strawmans" you've ever seen?

You don't have any reason to be riding me so hard. So I posted the same reason as Starbuck and admitted to not reading that particular post. Then I left an argument because it was crap. That makes me scum?

You left a discussion and didn't defend yourself. You said that you weren't coming back to the thread until that topic was over. You didn't start posting again until we asked you to be prodded and thusly asked for you to be replaced if you really didn't want to play. Then you ask why you even should defend yourself?? Monkey, for someone as seasoned in playing mafia as you, I find this very hard to believe. You are not playing as I have seen you play before.



@Gorrad - You are not doing the town any good by not participating in discussions and not taking part in scumhunting. You are tunneling on Brandi, what are your thoughts on everyone else playing?


@Brandi - On your self-voting point, I have been proved wrong more than once when I assumed that self-voting was a scum tell. It can be used to garner discussion, and to get things rolling. It is useful. It took me awhile to see that, but it is. I don't like that someone who has been on MS as long as you discounts this.

Starbuck doesn't mind it when someone joins her on her bandwagon, but has a problem when someone disagrees with her. Double standard much?

[MonkeyMan576]

So basically you are saying that since I don't overreact to votes on me, but I do argue my points, it's a double standard?

That statement really doesn't make any sense.

I'm pretty sure what he meant was: You don't mind when people attack those you are attacking, but do mind when people defend those you are attacking. I don't think of it as a double standard per say, but at least this way its possible to see where he's coming from.


If you want me to post a concise defense of monkey, first you can post a concise case. Otherwise you can reread my posts in the thread.

First off, I really do think that you need to stop answering for Monkey.

I don't mind when people defend those who I'm attacking, but you jump in before he can ever speak for himself. So pretty much, he is just following your lead after he comes back into the thread. I really don't care for it, and I'm pretty sure that there are others that agree with me.

Wow, getting rather snarky there at the end. I have posted the reason why my vote originally went on Monkey and why it has stayed there and has not moved, and probably will not move, more than a number of times. You could easily read me back in iso, and see that.

I think it's rather immature of you to say that "screw you guys, unless she posts something, I won't". I have been posting and have repeated myself over and over.

As far as I can tell, you're not actually asking me questions, you're just throwing around baseless attacks and insults, so there's really nothing for me to answer. You also don't want to build an actual case, probably because you don't have one. You're also wasting a lot of the day with this which could be used looking for real scum.

[MonkeyMan576]

Fine, I'm tired of the bickering. I could easily string out this argument, but I won't.

I'm

Peter Pan, Town Conditional Watcher

.

I'm a watcher as long as we don't lynch a townie.

[MonkeyMan576]

Sorry, alt.

[MonkeyMan576]

Read below my RC.

Oh, okay. That went past me.

Does that mean Vanilla Townie or any pro-town person?

Any pro-town person, I presume.

[MonkeyMan576]

Unvote

Thank you, Monkey, for finally doing something to defend yourself, even if it was just claiming.

Vote: Chamber

For everything that I have said previously.

Don't get the idea that me roleclaiming validates your argument. There's still a wagon on you.

[MonkeyMan576]

Well, I know they are wrong because I am town. And if the wagon continues, at least it will garner info for the town because I know there is scum on my wagon.

So not only won't you build a decent case against someone you're wagoning, you won't acknowledge a sound case made against you.(See post #318, which you've ignored.)

[MonkeyMan576]

I haven't ignored anything, and I think that's quite rude of you to insinuate that I did.

:double checks responces since casepost...:

Nope, you ignored it.

[MonkeyMan576]

So just because I don't comment on something that means I'm ignoring it? I don't get your logic.

That you have the time to comment on your approval of my roleclaim(which you think vindicates you) and not the case against you raises eyebrows.

[MonkeyMan576]

You just said that your role is conditional as long as we don't lynch a townie. I'm telling you that if I'm lynched then you won't be able to watch.

And I'm saying I don't believe you. You have been anti-town. Your arguments have been silly, you're avoiding the cases against you, you've been condecending, and you're acting like we should just assume you are town because you say so.

[MonkeyMan576]

Despite the whole "Remy is not a weak tracker" thing from last game, I still want some flavor info from Monkey.

Monkey, why is Peter Pan a watcher?
Why is Peter Pan a conditional watcher rather than just a regular watcher?

I think I've given enough role info at this point. It should be rather obvious why he's a watcher, although not so obvious why he's a conditional watcher.

[MonkeyMan576]

Could the mafia be pixar characters? Hmmm...

[MonkeyMan576]

Crazy said fakeclaim, then quickly hushed it up. That means he knows you fakeclaimed. That means you fakeclaimed. That means you're both scum.

I'm willing to go with this theory.

[MonkeyMan576]

Crazy said fakeclaim, then quickly hushed it up. That means he knows you fakeclaimed. That means you fakeclaimed. That means you're both scum.

I'm willing to go with this theory.

I know that I am not scum. I have claimed, and I am Buzz Lightyear, who is a Vanilla Townie.

My wagon is definitely scum driven. To my fellow townies, I hope that WHEN (not IF) I flip town that you will take the appropriate action.

Which people on your wagon do you think are scum?

[MonkeyMan576]

L-1 I think...

[MonkeyMan576]

It was nice playing with some of you. I hope that our town can pull this off, right now it's not looking promising.

Appeal to emotion much?

[MonkeyMan576]

In light of recent events I went back to do an iso on Crazy.



He votes for Monkey in this post, and he fully believes that Monkey was scum via the following

Wow, this is so stupid. Monkey has to be scum. Not on the emotional appeals, but refusing to play the game means either scum or horrible town. And I think Monkey is too experienced of a player to do this as town.

He doesn't like my case because I apparently based it all on AtE and reactions. The biggest reaction Monkey made was leaving the game, and actively lurking until the point where he was prodded that's why my vote stayed where it was. The thing about this that bothers me the most is that he keeps making an excuse of being a little behind via [http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 41#1904641]this post[/url] when he was there when Monkey up and left.

He tries to justify Monkey leaving in this post by saying that Monkey came back after he was prodded. My issue with all of this is that Monkey shouldn't have left the game in the first place and should not have needed to be prodded when he was being active elsewhere on the site. He admits that I'm right about this via this post, but then says he can forgive Monkey's outburst when originally (look at the above quote), he didn't feel that way.


He seems to be contradicting himself if he believes the following

Meh. True. Crazy seems to think that the only way scum are caught is if they do something that would benefit them though.

Not exactly. I just don't like the argument of "This makes no sense as town, so he must be scum."

Why would he lie and say that I fakeclaimed when he knows nothing about my role? My guess is that he is scum painting a target on me, and WHEN I flip town. He will be in the spotlight and need to answer for that.

Example: Self voting is a scum tell.
Player A always self votes.
Self voting is STILL a scumtell.
The end.

People who play like scum on purpose and to try to say "oh it's how I play, so you can't point fingers at me!" are retarded and I have no sympathy for them~ These types of people always hurt the town.

Being anti-town even when you're always anti-town is anti-town. But being anti-town when you're always anti-town is not scummy; it's a null-tell.

I really don't like this because Crazy is most definitely being anti-town, and it seems like he's using the reasoning as an excuse to be anti-town.


Another thing that bothers me about Crazy is that he does not see anything wrong with how Chamber has been answering for Monkey and white-knighting him. I think it was StrangerCoug that put it best. Chamber has been defending Monkey for Monkey instead of Monkey defending himself.

I'm also bothered by the fact that he kept calls my case crap via this post, and doesn't seem to remember why it's crap until I make mention of what my case on Monkey was via this post.


After Monkey claims, Crazy immediately unvotes Monkey and votes me. He then immediately unvotes me after I claim. Let's take a look at this post

Pixar is owned by Disney and there were Pixar characters in the first game, and Toy Story is most definitely a "classic." It came out in 1995, which was in a time period that Disney was still making its own traditionally-animated classics.

Besides that, if Starbuck isn't town, that's the most brilliant fake-claim I've ever heard. Buzz Lightyear is the definition of a Vanilla Townie.

Unvote

I think I've given enough role info at this point. It should be rather obvious why he's a watcher, although not so obvious why he's a conditional watcher.

That's the scummiest thing you've said the whole game. You've claimed. Keeping information back now is useless. Besides, it will help me discern whether you're fake-claiming.

And then says the following:

Between Starbuck's fakeclaim and me recently seeing Toy Story & Toy Story 2 in 3D, I can't get this scene out of my head:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iy-1xI1nbao

So if he thinks I'm fakeclaiming, why isn't he voting for me?

He obviously doesn't think it, he knows it. That was the slip.

[MonkeyMan576]

I would hammer myself to move the game along if I was scum. Since I'm not scum, I'm not going to hammer myself.

You supposedly believe my rc yet your vote is still on me? Hammer, please.

[MonkeyMan576]

No, your play today has still been scummy. Your roleclaim is fishy, and lynching gives us info about possible scum role makeup.

[MonkeyMan576]

Not to mention gives us info on the Starbuck-Crazy scumpair theory.

[MonkeyMan576]

If anything, I would think Buzz would NOT be a candidate for a vanilla.

[MonkeyMan576]

@MonkeyMan
The speculation that Pixar characters are scum is just that: speculation. It is distracting and won’t get us anywhere in terms of scumhunting. Lynching Starbuck gives no info on the scum role make-up (specifically since you separate this from the potential Starbuck-Crazy scumpair theory)

Regarding this supposed “slip”… why the heck would Starbuck point out a slip that condemns herself to be lynched?

WIFOM, much? I don't know what Starbuck's mindset is. It doesn't make her play less scummy.

Anyone who didn't agree with the wagon on MonkeyMan for his poor play is seriously hypcritical for voting Stabuck based on her poor play.

That's based on your opinion that my play has been poor, which I disagree with.

Starbuck’s claim is more believable to me for her being town than MonkeyMan’s claim. Buzz Lightyear is an amazing vanilla candidate. He’s a TOY. He thinks he can fly but he can’t, he only falls with style. His laser is a little, harmless flashing light.

Even if he's a toy, he's still heroic. He saved Woody. And just because he's a toy and doesn't have "real powers", doesn't make him vanilla.

StrangerCoug is becoming suspicious to me, and maybe you’ll just be one of those players who I always find suspicious, but I really don’t understand your strong town read on me earlier. No one else had a town read on me then, and if I’m being perfectly honest,

I would have a somewhere in the neutral read on myself.

Are you admitting to not playing pro-town?

[MonkeyMan576]

Even if he's a toy, he's still heroic. He saved Woody. And just because he's a toy and doesn't have "real powers", doesn't make him vanilla.

Not having real power does make someone vanilla, and if you've actually watched Disney movies most of the characters can be considered heroic and thy don't need special powers to be heroic. Case in point: Bolt from last game. He is heroic in the movie. He does not have special powers. He was a vanilla role.

I have a 3 yr old son, I'm sure I've watched more disney movies than you have.

I see your point with Bolt, but it doesn't cancel out Starbuck's scummy play. And I don't think my early game stragegy was poor, it was Starbuck who said that. It did what it intended to, shake things up and allowed players to see things in different ways. Starbuck was tunneling me, the other players weren't seeing my logic, and I stand by my play.

[MonkeyMan576]

Perhaps I like thinking of everybody as innocent until proven guilty. I don't think I help anybody by trying to explain the subconscious, but people who make good cases look town to me.

And I'm not the towniest player around, hence why I call myself a village idiot.

This is an extremely scummy statement. Western law should not be a model applied to mafia. Mafia is about mob justice, not courtroom justice. No one is innocent until proven guilty, it is guilty until proven innocent. This just sounds like a ploy to muddy the waters.

And the "village idiot" stamtment is bogus too, I know SC to be intelligent. This just sounds like an attempt to explain future scummy behavior.

FOS: StrangerCoug

[MonkeyMan576]

Even though I think Starbuck is scum, she is potentially more helpful than Neopi this game...I don't like the wagoning and lack of reasoning...

Unvote:
Vote: Neopi

[MonkeyMan576]

I'm going back to Starbuck. Just thinking about her roleclaim as Buzz again. All townies look at your role, and look at the title of the game, and you'll see what I'm getting at.

Unvote:
Vote: Starbuck

[MonkeyMan576]

Yes, that's my point.

[MonkeyMan576]

Yes, that's my point.

[MonkeyMan576]

Sorry for the double post.

[MonkeyMan576]

Can anyone besides Starbuck claim to be a movie after 1980(Don't give the actual title, just yes or no)?

[MonkeyMan576]

Wow, you really just asked for people to claim (more or less) on Day 1.

You really like to exaggerate what I'm asking for. This is nothing like a claim.

[MonkeyMan576]

Okay,

Unvote:

for now

[MonkeyMan576]

Wow, you really just asked for people to claim (more or less) on Day 1.

You really like to exaggerate what I'm asking for. This is nothing like a claim.

Not exaggerating. You are wanting people to reveal what era they are from. That in and of itself is partially claiming.

Explain how knowing what year a movie is from for a player helps the mafia.

[MonkeyMan576]

I didn't even ask for the year though, I just asked if it was afer 1980. The insults aren't necessary.

[MonkeyMan576]

Why 1980 though? The 1980s era movies are very different from the 1990s era movies or the 2000 era movies.

Just an arbitrary number. Most of the "classic" movies like Cinderella, Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, etc were before 1980.

[MonkeyMan576]

I find it a little disturbing that Starbuck is overreacting so much to everything I do(my RVS vote reason being the same, my classics idea). I've never played in a game where she was scum, so I can't say if it's a scum tell or not, but usually overreacting is a scum tell. Townies know if they are lynched it doesn't hurt their team as much as a scum being lynched hurts theirs, especially since Starbuck is claiming vanilla.

[MonkeyMan576]

I find it a little disturbing that Starbuck is overreacting so much to everything I do(my RVS vote reason being the same, my classics idea). I've never played in a game where she was scum, so I can't say if it's a scum tell or not, but usually overreacting is a scum tell. Townies know if they are lynched it doesn't hurt their team as much as a scum being lynched hurts theirs, especially since Starbuck is claiming vanilla.

I don't think overreaction is as reliable a scumtell as you think. It's something that should be looked at, yes, but I don't know if it's a good idea to automatically label it scummy.

This is correct, you have to look at things on a case by case basis.

Looking at the whole picture, her overreactions, her vanilla claim, her movie being in the '90s(lynching her would give us info as to if these kind of movies would be in the town), I think signs point to a starbuck lynch at this point.

[MonkeyMan576]

I find it a little disturbing that Starbuck is overreacting so much to everything I do(my RVS vote reason being the same, my classics idea). I've never played in a game where she was scum, so I can't say if it's a scum tell or not, but usually overreacting is a scum tell. Townies know if they are lynched it doesn't hurt their team as much as a scum being lynched hurts theirs, especially since Starbuck is claiming vanilla.

The funny part of this all is that I'm not even overreacting. I'm just asking questions. It strikes me odd that you take offense to everything I say. I can't ask you a question/question your motives without you getting offended.

I am only vanilla, and if my actions get me lynched today so be it. At least, I know I've helped the town garner information to help out later on in the game.

According to you you are innocent about everything and all arguments against you are baseless. Yet you do not defend yourself well.

Comments like this:

You just said that your role is conditional as long as we don't lynch a townie. I'm telling you that if I'm lynched then you won't be able to watch.

Well, I know they are wrong because I am town. And if the wagon continues, at least it will garner info for the town because I know there is scum on my wagon.

OMG, I know you are not this dense.

And other appeals to emotion like this don't sound like a townie using logical arguments. They sound like scum trying to get people lynched on emotional arguments.

[MonkeyMan576]

I already cited them. You overreacted to my RVS vote,and you overreacted to my classic movies theory.

[MonkeyMan576]

According to you you are innocent about everything and all arguments against you are baseless. Yet you do not defend yourself well.

Comments like this:

You just said that your role is conditional as long as we don't lynch a townie. I'm telling you that if I'm lynched then you won't be able to watch.

This is not an appeal to emotion. This is fact. You said that if a townie is lynched then you won't be able to watch, but just now you said the following:

This is fact?!?!?! This statement is really bothersome. You are not a confirmed townie. You should be lynched on this statement alone.

Looking at the whole picture, her overreactions, her vanilla claim, her movie being in the '90s(lynching her would give us info as to if these kind of movies would be in the town), I think signs point to a starbuck lynch at this point.

I take this as you doubting my scumminess with the fact of mentioning that it would give info for the town, but wouldn't it screw your watch ability tonight? Quite a contradiction.

It's not a contridiction. We can get information and lynch scum.

Well, I know they are wrong because I am town. And if the wagon continues, at least it will garner info for the town because I know there is scum on my wagon.

OMG, I know you are not this dense.

And other appeals to emotion like this don't sound like a townie using logical arguments. They sound like scum trying to get people lynched on emotional arguments.

Explain how that's an appeal to emotion because I don't see it. I know that by me dying it gives our PRs another day to do their work, and I don't deny that fact. I know that we definitely have some opportunistic scum that are using me as a scapegoat to make the town lose a person today.

I have played quite a few games with you, Monkey, and I seriously do not know what's with you this game. Unless, you have been town in every other game and this time you are scum. I don't know.

There you go with the insults again.

Like I said previously, you should be lynched based on the "this is fact" post.

[MonkeyMan576]

How was I being insulting there? All I said is that I don't get what's with you, and that's an insult too? This is mafia. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. It's as simple as that.

I've given multiple arguments against you, and you're saying everyone of them is bogus, just like you say against everyone else attacking you. Saying there is something wrong with my play IS insulting, and another appeal to emotion, considering we don't know if you are scum.

So what happened to you wanting to be able to use your ability? If you are pro-town, I would say that you wouldn't want to lynch a townie, and now you do? You DID just contradict yourself.

Of course I don't want to lynch a townie. But I believe you are scum.

1) Overreactions to RVS vote and classics theory

2) Repeated appeal to emotions(as quoted before)

3) Implying you are a confirmed townie.

[MonkeyMan576]

You just said that your role is conditional as long as we don't lynch a townie. I'm telling you that if I'm lynched then you won't be able to watch.

[Quote="Starbuck"This is not an appeal to emotion. This is fact. You said that if a townie is lynched then you won't be able to watch, [/Quote]

You said it's a fact that if we lynch you I lose my ability, which is saying that you are confirmed town. If you flip scum I won't lose my ability.

[MonkeyMan576]

I don't believe I'm misinterpreting you. I'm entitled to my interpretation. That's what slips are about.

I believe I've stated my argument well and we've hashed it out enough so leave to others to decide from here.

[MonkeyMan576]

I don't believe I'm misinterpreting you. I'm entitled to my interpretation. That's what slips are about.

I believe I've stated my argument well and we've hashed it out enough so leave to others to decide from here.

You wouldn't believe so.

How bout the fact that you DID play a game with me as scum (as I linked on the last page) and that you even hammered me in that game?

Forgot about that game. That only goes to show that my scumdar isn't something to be sneezed at.

[MonkeyMan576]

Either

a) The day killer knew kmd was right about starbuck, and wanted him dead to eliminate a threat.

b) The day killer knew kmd was wrong about starbuck, and killed him so we would think he was right.

c) The day killer is actually town, thought kmd was scummy, but was wrong.

I think the best way to find out is to lynch starbuck, and find out if I survive the night.

[MonkeyMan576]

There are several movies post 1980 that could still be considered "classic". The Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin, The Lion King, for instance. This is different than the CGI Toy Story.

[MonkeyMan576]

There are several movies post 1980 that could still be considered "classic". The Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin, The Lion King, for instance. This is different than the CGI Toy Story.

Then why did you ask for age as a metric?

Just because post-1980 movies could be considered classic, doesn't mean they are. Just trying to get a feel for where the mod is coming from.

[MonkeyMan576]

I should add that I thought the kill could have happened because Kmd4390 was talking too much about his role.

Except that he really didn't say anything about his role. All he said was that his movie was post 1980 and had a classic feel to it. Hardly seems like a reason to be killed.

Regards,
Jazz

Yeah, I'm certain it was a day kill and not a mod kill.

[MonkeyMan576]

SC has been acting a little strange the whole game, to be honest.

[MonkeyMan576]

His "village idiot" statement, his wagon hoping, his behavior here...

[MonkeyMan576]

And Monkey, can you just explain why Peter Pan is a "conditional" watcher?

I've asked this before as well, and haven't seen it answered yet. Why are you ignoring this MonkeyMan?

Either

a) The day killer knew kmd was right about starbuck, and wanted him dead to eliminate a threat.

b) The day killer knew kmd was wrong about starbuck, and killed him so we would think he was right.

c) The day killer is actually town, thought kmd was scummy, but was wrong.

I think the best way to find out is to lynch starbuck, and find out if I survive the night.

I think this is scummy for the speculation, which is very railroaded, and for you supposed "best way to find out" solution which is in my opinion ridiculous.

Also, did Kmd's death affect you having an ability tonight?

@Everyone
I don't doubt that Starbuck is the role-name she claims. I am certain that is her character name and movie. Based on last game, character and movie did not determine alignment and I doubt that would change here. People debating whether a Toy Story character would be a scum-role or not is a really dumb idea.

I have not gotten a pm indicating KMD's death effected my ability.

I don't think debating Toy Story is dumb, and it could be especially useful later on when we know more about the makeup of the mafia. To outright dismiss it is really dumb.

[MonkeyMan576]

Also you continue to ignore the request, from multiple players, to explain the flavor of your conditional ability. I am happy with my vote.

Explain the "multiple players".

I think most players believe my roleclaim. Therefore I am not going to give any more info about my role to the mafia.

[MonkeyMan576]

MM: My role, like Toy Story, is from the mid-nineties. So shut up about time period. It's stupid.

Well you're entitled to your opinion. Like I said, it's not just the year, it's the type of animation. The mod didn't call it classic disney for no reason. I mean, if was an open book game, Up could be in it, which, because of the name of the game, I doubt. So no, I won't shut up about it. Anything that could potentially be useful in finding scum now or at a later point is worth talking about imho.

@semioldguy: 2 people asking for flavor info does not constitute a will of the people. My flavor is not that hard to figure out if you think about it, and like I said, I don't want to give the mafia more info that they already have.

[MonkeyMan576]

If it isn't that hard to figure out, then you should have no problem sharing it. What you just said and have said is almost word for word what scum said last game about their fake-claim.

I don't believe your claim.

The mod is fallible. Last game was Disney-Dreamworks. There was an Ice-Age character which is neither. Your speculation remains and will continue to be useless. I'd go as far as to say that it is actually harmful to the town.

Then don't believe it. I don't like how you act like you're speaking for everyone. If you want to get into an argument about who's being more pro-town then we can have at it.

If everyone roleclaimed because one or two players wanted them two, that would be anti-town play, and I'm not going to give more info here..

[MonkeyMan576]

That's fine, three players, two of which are towards the top of my scumlist. So I don't put much credence in it.

[MonkeyMan576]

That's fine, three players, two of which are towards the top of my scumlist. So I don't put much credence in it.

Are you including me in that list? I've read and cited your claim post multiple times, and saw what you said about your condition.

I thought you said in 614 that you were agreeing with Semioldguy, so yes, but I apologize if there was a misunderstanding regarding that issue.

[MonkeyMan576]

That's fine, three players, two of which are towards the top of my scumlist. So I don't put much credence in it.

Are you including me in that list? I've read and cited your claim post multiple times, and saw what you said about your condition.

I thought you said in 614 that you were agreeing with Semioldguy, so yes, but I apologize if there was a misunderstanding regarding that issue.

I said this:

Semioldguy and Crazy have both asked for you to elaborate. I did it for you by linking to your past posts on the last page I believe, but I'm not sure if they've seen it.

How quick you are to try and misrepresent me.

I wasn't "trying to misrepresent you", if that was the case, I wouldn't have apolgized for misunderstanding you.

[MonkeyMan576]

FOS: Semioldguy

He was suspicious before, he is really suspicious now. Not as suspicious as Starbuck, but right up there. And he can't claim OMGUS because I suspected him first.

[MonkeyMan576]

I think that's a dumb argument. It was more or less a rhetorical question to begin with as I would find it strange for anyone not to have flavor to their role when this is a theme game.

I am town and I have flavor. I don't think it in any way damaging to town or helpful to scum to admit this.

Why are players in this game getting hung up on really dumb ideas?

I don't think anyone is "hung up" about it. You are the one who keeps on bringing it up. And the one who wants people to keep on giving more of their role info than they are comfortable with.

[MonkeyMan576]

Yes I have flavor. I just don't want to give any more info unless there is justification for it. I've already claimed with my role and power.

[MonkeyMan576]

I really don't care what scum think. I'm not in a position vote-wise to have to claim anything.

[MonkeyMan576]

My scum-wagon radar is pinging...

[MonkeyMan576]

Well, if players don't want to think for themselves to figure out my flavor or do research, then that's their problem, not mine. Voting on someone because you think they are scummy is one thing, voting on someone because you are lazy is something else.

[MonkeyMan576]

Well, if players don't want to think for themselves to figure out my flavor or do research, then that's their problem, not mine. Voting on someone because you think they are scummy is one thing, voting on someone because you are lazy is something else.

I think it's scummy that you don't reveal flavor. And even if I did research and thought up a reason, it wouldn't matter because it wouldn't be coming from you. And if town can do research and find out, then scum could to so you're not withholding anything from the scum by keeping quite.

Does anybody here besides Monkey honestly think that revealing flavor would help scum to any significant degree?

It's probably more that I don't like being pushed around by scummy players. Revealing role info is something the scummy players do, not the other way around.

[MonkeyMan576]

Mine just said stuff about the movie that if you already watched it, you would already know.

I think Monkey is pissed is now using adhom by calling people lazy to try and appeal to emotion.

He is definitely making himself scummier every time he posts. I was even willing to back off him, even though he wasn't backing off of me. Now, with this recent refusal, leads me to believe that maybe he isn't who he says he is since he won't provide flavor.

This is making a mountain out of a molehill. A few players were mad because of my idea of looking at movie era's to help determine alignment, and now they are trying to retaliate at me. There's nothing scummy about not wanting to give out your flavor info. I obviously have it, and just don't want to give it out to scum. The scumminess is the rolefishing that's going on by Semioldguy and Starbuck.

[MonkeyMan576]

Mine just said stuff about the movie that if you already watched it, you would already know.

I think Monkey is pissed is now using adhom by calling people lazy to try and appeal to emotion.

He is definitely making himself scummier every time he posts. I was even willing to back off him, even though he wasn't backing off of me. Now, with this recent refusal, leads me to believe that maybe he isn't who he says he is since he won't provide flavor.

This is making a mountain out of a molehill. A few players were mad because of my idea of looking at movie era's to help determine alignment, and now they are trying to retaliate at me. There's nothing scummy about not wanting to give out your flavor info. I obviously have it, and just don't want to give it out to scum. The scumminess is the rolefishing that's going on by Semioldguy and Starbuck.

WTF are you talking about? You were rolefishing when you were talking about movie era's to help determine alignment. How is what you said okay but what Semioldguy said not?

You just contradicted yourself yet again.

I didn't ask about the name of the role at all. So you are wrong yet again. Trying to find out if there is a pattern to scum roles helps town, obviously.

[MonkeyMan576]

Mine just said stuff about the movie that if you already watched it, you would already know.

I think Monkey is pissed is now using adhom by calling people lazy to try and appeal to emotion.

He is definitely making himself scummier every time he posts. I was even willing to back off him, even though he wasn't backing off of me. Now, with this recent refusal, leads me to believe that maybe he isn't who he says he is since he won't provide flavor.

This is making a mountain out of a molehill. A few players were mad because of my idea of looking at movie era's to help determine alignment, and now they are trying to retaliate at me. There's nothing scummy about not wanting to give out your flavor info. I obviously have it, and just don't want to give it out to scum. The scumminess is the rolefishing that's going on by Semioldguy and Starbuck.

WTF are you talking about? You were rolefishing when you were talking about movie era's to help determine alignment. How is what you said okay but what Semioldguy said not?

You just contradicted yourself yet again.

I didn't ask about the name of the role at all. So you are wrong yet again. Trying to find out if there is a pattern to scum roles helps town, obviously.

But you are still rolefishing and could reveal a town PR to the scum. Why don't you see this?

i'm not asking about role's at all. I play at another site and hypothesizing about game makeup is standard. Players hypersensitivity to this on mafiascum is a little absurd.

[MonkeyMan576]

Hypothesizing game makeup on this site is liable to get you modkilled.

I don't see why. It's a legitimate tactic.

[MonkeyMan576]

Hypothesizing game makeup on this site is liable to get you modkilled.

I don't see why. It's a legitimate tactic.

You are trying to outguess the mod and it's distracting from scumhunting.

Not if I'm right.

And like I said, I'm not even pursuing the issue even more, it's you and semigold that are complaining about the tactic after it happened and not willing to move on to something else. Besides, you're only interested in scum hunting if it doesn't involve you.

[MonkeyMan576]

Sorry for the grammar and spelling mistakes there.

[MonkeyMan576]

Hypothesizing game makeup on this site is liable to get you modkilled.

I don't see why. It's a legitimate tactic.

You are trying to outguess the mod and it's distracting from scumhunting.

Not if I'm right.

And like I said, I'm not even pursuing the issue even more, it's you and semigold that are complaining about the tactic after it happened and not willing to move on to something else. Besides, you're only interested in scum hunting if it doesn't involve you.

While you are only interested in scumhunting those who are scumhunting you.

There's nothing wrong with scumhunting those who are scumhunting you if your arguments are sound. You two have been illogical the whole game, and you've been trying your darndest to try to distract from my cases.

[MonkeyMan576]

Fine,

He's a watcher because he watches people out of windows.

He's conditional because pixie dust relies on happy thoughts and killing townies isn't happy.

Satisfied?

[MonkeyMan576]

Satisfied as soon as you tell me why it was a pro-town thing to withhold that information.

Because I think it was scum that was mostly trying to get it.

[MonkeyMan576]

Satisfied as soon as you tell me why it was a pro-town thing to withhold that information.

Because I think it was scum that was mostly trying to get it.

Why?

Because Starbuck and Semioldguy are at the top of my scum list.

[MonkeyMan576]

Satisfied as soon as you tell me why it was a pro-town thing to withhold that information.

Because I think it was scum that was mostly trying to get it.

Why?

Because Starbuck and Semioldguy are at the top of my scum list.

And it would benefit them how?

So they could determine if I was fakeclaiming or not. If they thought I was fakeclaiming(as a SK or something), they might be less likely to kill me right away.

[MonkeyMan576]

I'm more worried about being NK'd by scum than lynched by town at this point, even at L-1.

[MonkeyMan576]

Why? You've clearly been in the center of far too much suspicion to be a viable NK target. All scum has to do, assuming you're telling the truth, is put focus on another townie and you're rendered harmless!

Seriously. No sane scum would be putting pressure on you.

That's a lot of WIFOM.

[MonkeyMan576]

Do whatever you want, I'm not begging for mercy from anyone.

[MonkeyMan576]

@MonkeyMan
Don't expect me to push a case elsewhere when you ignore almost any post I make toward you or whenever I ask you a question. There are still things you have yet to answer and that you have continued to ignore. I know you have read, please address them.

You shouldn't be pushing cases based on what someone else does or doesn't do or as a way to get back at them or make friends. As far as I know I've answered all questions you've asked of me.

[MonkeyMan576]

You shouldn't be pushing cases based on what someone else does or doesn't do or as a way to get back at them or make friends. As far as I know I've answered all questions you've asked of me.

Post 636, Post 666 and Post 692 to name more recent ones. As far as I know, ignoring the points of a case brought against you isn't going to make the case go away.

Cases are based on what people do or don't do, that's how the game is played. Find me a case that isn't based on what someone does or doesn't do. I'm not here to get back at people or to make friends; I'm here to play mafia. If I wanted to make friends here I'd go post in General Discussion.

Those are all the same question. Please don't exaggerate a case by making something sound like more than it is.

Questions that require research shouldn't be expected to be answered in the same timeframe as questions that don't. In fact, it's quite rude to ask such a question and demand it be answered immediately.

[MonkeyMan576]

I first suspected you around post 126, semioldguy.

[MonkeyMan576]

I really do not understand the big drama and the lengths to which Monkey went to avoid posting flavour in support of his prior claim, especially since the flavour provided was not in any way surprising and I cannot see how it was worth digging himself even further into a hole (all the way to L-1) to protect against uttering the words, 'windows,' 'pixie dust' and 'happy.' That said, I can still see him as a townie feeling himself under relentless attack by scum, misguided town, or mistaken town, and digging in his heels and not wanting to give away any information that he thinks might help scum, even if it turns out that the information might not, in fact, benefit scum in any way. So, I'm not sure about Monkey. I'm still leaning town on him but I have to admit that this last go-round leaves me less certain of my read on him. The lengths to which he went to avoid it, the time it took for him to finally come out with it, the innocuousness of the flavour when he finally did set it out, and his comments about fake-claiming give me a great big question mark where I didn't have one before.

I also do not understand why semioldguy said that Monkey's failure to post flavour when he claimed amounted to only a "partial claim" and said that "partial claims are scummy" and yet semi did not apply the same rationale to Starbuck, who had also claimed her role and no flavour. I am further suspicious of the fact that when someone (YankCane, I think) mentioned this, semi posted almost immediately (within 3 minutes) that he had re-read Starbuck's posts and yes, lo and behold, she had not made a full claim either. Three minutes from the time of YankCane's post to semi's response and he read all of Starbuck's posts from her claim forward? Really? I doubt that. Then there's semi's gratuitous "I'm town" claim when nobody asked and it's not as though scum would claim any different.

I think it's fairly obvious that Neopi is inexperienced, erratic, and not very helpful so far. He could be either newbtown or newbscum, but I am growing more and more annoyed with his lack of input into the game. I don't really relish lynching newbs just for being newbs, because they could just as easily turn out to be newbpowerroles who are feeling overwhelmed and out of their depth as newbvanillas or newbscum, but if Neopi doesn't start participating more meaningfully and it comes to a deadline situation, I could change my mind on that.

More in a bit. I'm in the midst of doing laundry (ack) and the buzzer on the dryer just went off.

Regards,
Jazz

While I appreciate your consideration, I don't see how hypothesizing about fakeclaiming is scummy. Being confirmed town is more likely to get you killed, especially if you have a power role. Leaving open the idea of fakeclaim, while leaving the possibility of a town lynch, also makes it less likely that scum will go after you.

[MonkeyMan576]

While I appreciate your consideration, I don't see how hypothesizing about fakeclaiming is scummy. Being confirmed town is more likely to get you killed, especially if you have a power role. Leaving open the idea of fakeclaim, while leaving the possibility of a town lynch, also makes it less likely that scum will go after you.

I'm not sure I understand that. You have already claimed a town power role, so how does refusing to disclose supporting flavour make you "confirmed" any more than you already were? How does suggesting that you were fakeclaiming make you less likely to by lynched? (i.e., if you are a vanilla townie fakeclaiming, you deserve to be lynched on principle, as vanillas should never fakeclaim power roles, particularly on Day 1, and if you are a power role fakeclaiming, then there is a good chance that you are actually an anti-town role, perhaps an SK or something. So, how does raising the spectre of fakeclaiming help you instead of just disclosing the flavour that would support your claim? Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't understand this.

@Jazzmyn - I claimed my flavor well before Monkey.

And? That has nothing to do with what I wrote. What is your point?

Regards,
Jazz

If you tell people your whole strategy then it's not a strategy. Either you believe me or you don't.

[MonkeyMan576]

Sure it is, MM! For example, my strategy is to wait until someone does something I dislike and pounce on it. There, I said it! Is it now not a strategy?

Now, SCUM strategies I could see following that.

Exactly. Having a strategy is not a scumtell.

But some of us have more complex strategies than others. Some of us may want to share our strategies more or less than others. And some may be think than downplaying strategy may be a scumtell.

[MonkeyMan576]

Yeah, the lurking is bad. I still think Starbuck is guilty but evidently everyone else doesn't.

Unvote:
Vote: Neopi

[MonkeyMan576]

This would fall in line with my power restriction...

Unvote
Vote: Starbuck

[MonkeyMan576]

@Monkey
This is why claiming things such as what movie era a player is from can be bad for the town, when it could help scum narrow down unrevealed potential roles like the Tramp.

First of all, you're not considering how a revealed fakeclaim could help the town, second, I don't see what the movie era has to do with the potential Tramp role. Usually the mafia already knows or has a pretty good idea what their mafia consists of, and could deduce what the town consists of.

[MonkeyMan576]

I also think a Tramp claim is premature.

[MonkeyMan576]

Emphasis on the word "if".

As should be obvious, my point is that you had no townie reason whatsoever to think that Starbuck had claimed flavour when she clearly had not. Yet, according to you - and you alone - failure to claim flavour when roleclaiming is scummy. And you only felt it was scummy for Monkey not to have flavourclaimed when he roleclaimed but you said nothing of the sort when Starbuck roleclaimed without flavourclaiiming.

This does not compute.

Regards,
Jazz

Best explanation I can give is that I had a back trauma accident and was in the hospital for a few days, so when I caught up it included both claims as well as other stuff for just this game. I was still being heavily medicated and more than a little out of it so I must have missed that Starbuck hadn't claimed because I thought she had due to others speculating on the viability of her claim as vanilla. Since others were openly discussing Buzz's flavor (which I even joined in on in my post after coming back), I thought that she had given it. I was obviously wrong. I missed the fact that none of the posts discussing flavor at the time of the claim were hers.

First of all, you're not considering how a revealed fakeclaim could help the town, second, I don't see what the movie era has to do with the potential Tramp role. Usually the mafia already knows or has a pretty good idea what their mafia consists of, and could deduce what the town consists of.

For one, I know that Gorrad isn't the Tramp because of your question, and would have known that Kmd4390 wasn't as well. Since

Lady and the Tramp

is from 1955, which would be before 1980. That's the point I'm making, which you clearly missed.

You don't know it. You're assuming they are claiming the truth.(?)

You're acting like I was asking everyone, which I wasn't. You're also acting like there isn't anything to be gained from it, which there is.

Add that Starbuck's trying to tell players how to play and psuedo-threatening them, rather than allow the mod to decide what is or isn't allowed doesn't reek of someone who is trying to decipher information, rather someone that is trying to surpress it.

[MonkeyMan576]

I'm not the Tramp, nor am I affiliated with Neopi. Starbuck's interpretation of my supposed slip is way off. I meant that he can only use his power after day 2, I lose my power if we lynch a townie, We are both claiming power roles, and both claiming restrictions on our power.

[MonkeyMan576]

I'm not the Tramp, nor am I affiliated with Neopi. Starbuck's interpretation of my supposed slip is way off. I meant that he can only use his power after day 2, I lose my power if we lynch a townie, We are both claiming power roles, and both claiming restrictions on our power.

Neopi is claiming that he doesn't know who the Tramp is. You could very well be the Tramp.

Peter Pan is very commonly known, and I forgot who said it early but words like pixie dust, windows, and happiness are almost synonymous with Peter Pan. You could have easily made up your flavor which is what took you so long to claim it.

I could have made it up, but I didn't. You sound pretty desperate at this point for a "vanilla townie".

[MonkeyMan576]

You sound like you are reaching again. I just threw out a theory.

I can't do anything, but give my opinion and help decipher who is or is not scum. While I'm still alive in this game (and any game I play), I will be doing that every chance I get.

Even when you're scum, I'm sure you're more valuable to the town than the other actual townies...

[MonkeyMan576]

It's still rude and telling Starbuck to take her business elsewhere. Yes, I remember what you said to me, and I'm taking that into account. I still find it easier to focus on the tells that work well in normals.

That's not what he was saying though. He's saying that not looking at flavor or role's as a part of lynching strategy would take out a crucial part of theme games as opposed to non-themed.

[MonkeyMan576]

Essentially chamber's in two games with me, and I'm thinking if he can't get me lynched in one, he's going to keep suspicion on me in the other.

I wouldn't let my 'in game' opinion of you carry over from one game to another. I honestly don't like you very much as a player from what I've seen (which is admittedly a small sample size), and I may have let the dislike carry over into me being a little to harsh with my 'go play normals' comment. I do however still support its intent which was later explained by me, and others.

Do me favor and take your personal opinions out of this so we can play the game and have fun. That was out of line and there was no need for it.

Weren't you the one who jumped all over me about being insulting to Monkey (when I never meant to be)? And now you both are doing the same thing to me? Quite hypocritical, I think.

That was me apologizing?

She obviously doesn't know when to let something go.

[MonkeyMan576]

I think Starbuck is clearly the best lynch here. Her claim is most suspect, and her lynch gives us the most information.

[MonkeyMan576]

Another option would be a no lynch. It is something I am against, but it would allow me to use my power assuming I survive the night.

[MonkeyMan576]

Because I have a town read on her, whereas I have a scummy read on MonkeyMan576 and neutral leaning scummy read on Neopi (and slight scum read on fuzzylightning prior to Neopi).

Can you explain your town read on Starbuck from a gameplay perspective?(as opposed to her claim)

[MonkeyMan576]

Can you explain your town read on Starbuck from a gameplay perspective?(as opposed to her claim)

Because I have played quite a few games with her before, both on this account and on an alt.

So you have nothing to base your town read on besides meta? You are not taking into account her play from this game isolated?

[MonkeyMan576]

her lynch gives us the most information.

MM, explain this.

She has had quite a few interactions with other players. Her alignment could give us clues as to semioldguy as they seem to be buddying.

Also it could tell us if Pixar movies are in the town are not.

[MonkeyMan576]

So you have nothing to base your town read on besides meta? You are not taking into account her play from this game isolated?

I don't find her play in this game, isolated, to be scummy.

I would disagree, obviously.

[MonkeyMan576]

Also it could tell us if Pixar movies are in the town are not.

No, it won't tell us this. Even if she is scum it won't mean that Pixar characters aren't town or are only scum. If she is town it won't mean that Pixar characters are all ton or that Pixar characters can't be scum. This is a huge leap from you and a really dumb all around assumption in my opinion.

You seem to be suspicious of me, would you mind making a case on me that doesn't center around me being suspicious of you?

Your buddying with Starbuck, for one. Your failure to listen to other people's cases, for two. All you seem to be interested in doing is undermining the town's progress, not advancing anything or dicussing.

[MonkeyMan576]

her lynch gives us the most information.

MM, explain this.

She has had quite a few interactions with other players. Her alignment could give us clues as to semioldguy as they seem to be buddying.

What about this makes her lynch give

more

information than yours or Neopi's? I could argue that your lynch also gives us lots of interactions between players as well.

Yeah, but I believe my claim is more solid, and I'm not buddying with anyone. You don't really have anything to gain from lynching me and you lose a potential power role. Most of the cases against me have been made by you and Starbuck, and given your buddying are more likely to be overblown scum cases.

[MonkeyMan576]

All you seem to be interested in doing is undermining the town's progress, not advancing anything or dicussing.

This is just ignorant. The town is the uniformed majority. How is any town supposed to know whether we are truly helping the town progress or not? I think that I am because I don't think you are town, therefore I don't see me as undermining the town.

It's hard to discuss when most of the points you bring up against your suspect are routinely ignored by that player and are STILL continuing to be ignored. By your own logic earlier this game,

you

are being scummy.

If you think my points are bad, you said it would be scummy for you not to react to a bad case. You haven't reacted to most of the points I bring up against you. You sit by and pretend I did nothing. If you think my points are good then you wouldn't be attacking me, or you would but doing so would be scummy.

You also seem more interested in being insulting and cryptic than advancing your case. You could have easily reposted your case rather than insulting my play. The truth is your and Starbuck's case against me is weak and you know it.

[MonkeyMan576]

I'd like to hear other players input...

[MonkeyMan576]

You know Monkey for someone who's been pretty nasty all game to anyone who brings a case against him. You throw the word "insulting" around way too easily.

If someone would bring a decent case against me, maybe I would react more positively to it.

[MonkeyMan576]

If someone would bring a decent case against me, maybe I would react more positively to it.

If it wasn't a decent case you think that it'd be easy to refute instead of routinely ignoring it

I'm not ignoring anything. Post the case.

[MonkeyMan576]

@Yank: Both...and I'll post my defence later, but I think it would be really dumb to lynch a power role without giving them a chance to prove their power.

[MonkeyMan576]

@Yank: Both...and I'll post my defence later, but I think it would be really dumb to lynch a power role without giving them a chance to prove their power.

Why are you putting off your defense for so long? (and in many cases repeatedly) If you are town your defense should be really quick/easy to do because you shouldn't have to make anything up. It helps the town most the sooner you do defend as it gives us all more time to see your response/defense before deadline which is very near.

You're being way too pushy. I have a life outside mafiascum. Stop trying to say that because I'm not doing everything on your terms it somehow makes me scummy.

[MonkeyMan576]

The following is a small collection from my posts of the things you have ignored and parts of my case on you that are already there which you don't acknowledge. TL:dr version in next post.

You clearly have no interest in discussion, just pointing fingers and making accusations. That's why I left the game. You can think whatever you want.

This is beyond hypocritical coming from the person who refuses to engage in discussion. YOU clearly have no interest in discussion if you are just going to disappear and wait for other to change the subject for you.

I think I've been among the most active players in the game, so this claim is bogus.

If you had an interest in discussion, then you could have taken the discussion somewhere else instead of siting by idly and doing nothing except complain.

[quote="SOG"You have been hypocritical and contradicting yourself all game, yet refuse to acknowledge any post that mentions this point. The above is one of these posts.[/Quote]

I don't believe I've been hypocritical or contradictory. Maybe you just aren't willing to see things from my perspective.

That's based on your opinion that my play has been poor, which I disagree with.

You self-admittdly have made poor play decisions this game. Unless you've had a change of heart and think your hissy-fit and rage-quit until being prodded was good play.

Here's another.

I didn't ask about the name of the role at all. So you are wrong yet again. Trying to find out if there is a pattern to scum roles helps town, obviously.

I didn't ask for the name of the role at all either.

Why is this point valid for you but not me? Another hypocritical claim against you that you've chosen to ignore multiple times now.

i'm not asking about role's at all. I play at another site and hypothesizing about game makeup is standard. Players hypersensitivity to this on mafiascum is a little absurd.

I'm not asking about roles either. I'm asking about flavor. You have already claimed your role. Making sure your flavor matches is in line with deciding whether your claim is town and not scum.

Flavor is something that helps determine alignment.

More of being hypocritical. And more of the repeated ignoring thing.

[/Quote]

I'm not sure I follow you. My logic is consistant. Just because I want to use flavor that has already been claimed, doesn't mean i am required to give my flavor the minute one player asks for it.

@Monkey
If you have suspects why aren't you making cases against them or doing any real scum-hunting? How is withholding your suspects and not trying to catch them in a slip, etc. a pro-town way of playing?

Either

a) The day killer knew kmd was right about starbuck, and wanted him dead to eliminate a threat.

b) The day killer knew kmd was wrong about starbuck, and killed him so we would think he was right.

c) The day killer is actually town, thought kmd was scummy, but was wrong.

I think the best way to find out is to lynch starbuck, and find out if I survive the night.

How is this plan in any way the best way to try finding out about the daykill? It involves tons of WIFOM and speculation and doesn't give us any concrete information about the daykill at all. Why do you want to find out about the day kill right now?

Also this:

Read below my RC.

Oh, okay. That went past me.

Does that mean Vanilla Townie or any pro-town person?

Any pro-town person, I presume.

Ask the Mod via PM.

Have you asked yet? This would go along with the things monkey has been ignoring.

I don't need to ask. It says in my PM if a townie is lynched I lose my power.

Post 632 is not nearly OMGUS as it is heavy misrepresentation. You've ignored this point put on you as well. If you think it isn;t misrepresentation, you shouldn't have a problem pointing to where in the thread that makes you think it isn't.

So they could determine if I was fakeclaiming or not.

This is a reason that benefits town.

Why was your reason for withholding information because you were afraid of pro-town motives? You said that it could be mafia-backed to find out if you were the SK or Vig and that's why you didn't want to give it. Well, if you aren't those things, which according to your own claim you aren't, then what reason did you have to withhold that?

[/Quote]

I don't believe the motives were pro-town. If scum wants your flavor info, then I would think a town player would be hesitant to give it.

You seem to be suspicious of me, would you mind making a case on me that doesn't center around me being suspicious of you?

I'm not sure what your point is here. You seem willing to lynch a potential town power role because they didn't give you their flavor the moment you asked for it. If someone you thought was scum asked for your pm info, would you give it to them right away?

All in all, this doesn't seem like much of a case for me.

[MonkeyMan576]

@Yank: Both...and I'll post my defence later, but I think it would be really dumb to lynch a power role without giving them a chance to prove their power.

Why are you putting off your defense for so long? (and in many cases repeatedly) If you are town your defense should be really quick/easy to do because you shouldn't have to make anything up. It helps the town most the sooner you do defend as it gives us all more time to see your response/defense before deadline which is very near.

You're being way too pushy. I have a life outside mafiascum. Stop trying to say that because I'm not doing everything on your terms it somehow makes me scummy.

Wow, this is quite a hypocritical statement, especially because you keep pushing everyone else, but the minute you don't want to give information or have something going on in real life, it's suddenly okay.

Not really. My complaint on you was you were posting in other games.

[MonkeyMan576]

@Yank: Both...and I'll post my defence later, but I think it would be really dumb to lynch a power role without giving them a chance to prove their power.

Why are you putting off your defense for so long? (and in many cases repeatedly) If you are town your defense should be really quick/easy to do because you shouldn't have to make anything up. It helps the town most the sooner you do defend as it gives us all more time to see your response/defense before deadline which is very near.

You're being way too pushy. I have a life outside mafiascum. Stop trying to say that because I'm not doing everything on your terms it somehow makes me scummy.

Wow, this is quite a hypocritical statement, especially because you keep pushing everyone else, but the minute you don't want to give information or have something going on in real life, it's suddenly okay.

Not really. My complaint on you was you were posting in other games.

Your "complaint" on me was that I am in multiple games and caught up in other games before I got to this one, but as it was said before, as long as I catch up here, it really doesn't matter the order because I still kept posting here.

So your argument is null and void.

Like I said, it's not so much that you didn't post, it's that you didn't post for nearly 2 days, after being very active in trying to get a wagon going on me, and then suddenly going inactive once the lynch had almost happened, despite there being discussion going on. It's not in my job description to just take your word for it that you were V/LA, especially when you didn't post anything in thread, and as said, you were posting in other games regularly.

[MonkeyMan576]

Nice game, mod. Sorry I couldn't have lived longer. I need to work on my day one strategy.