Mini 858 - Dexter Season One (Game Over)

[Budja]

Claim: Miller

No RVS for us . We can't rely on the votecount anyway.

[Budja]

Claim: Post Restriction, have to make short posts.

vote Budja

Last two "millers" I've seen were scum.

How short exactly?

Also I am not the kind of person to take such a gambit. (meta-ish but true). Not much I can do to change your mind.

[Budja]

Either people have vote restrictions that tried, or the colon they missed was important.

Eh, two people have voted and both votes are listed in the count. What are you getting at?

[Budja]

Nope.

[Budja]

Role-fish much?
Thats a horribly scummy post.

vote chamber

No RVS bandwagons here, please.

I think we are probably ok as long as we don't push anyone up to a near lynch unless we actually want a lynch.

[Budja]

Either people have vote restrictions that tried, or the colon they missed was important.

Eh, two people have voted and both votes are listed in the count. What are you getting at?

Either I'm insane, or that post was edited as I was typing.

So what did you mean to say then ?

[Budja]

Well I think role-fishing applies to everyone.
By claiming miller, the only real difference in my role that affects you is that I cannot be cop investigated. How many people's alignments do you discover that way? One or two a game.
If you want to figure out my alignment, scum-hunt in the usual way and don't rely on me giving you role-based information. I'm not saying anything.

[Budja]

Well I think role-fishing applies to everyone.
By claiming miller, the only real difference in my role that affects you is that I cannot be cop investigated. How many people's alignments do you discover that way? One or two a game.
If you want to figure out my alignment, scum-hunt in the usual way and don't rely on me giving you role-based information. I'm not saying anything.

Explain to me why role fishing is bad? In my opinion its bad because either A a power role is outed and killed, or B a vanilla is outed and the mafia can focus elsewhere in their hunt for power.

Now given your claim I see the following possibilities:

Mafia: No harm to town in you being forced to claim early.

True

Vanilla: Given that you are a claimed miller its unlikely you were getting nked anyway so it doesn't narrow anything.

Narrows down PRs for scum, even if they were not going to NK me anyway = bad

A power role who's abilities don't out weigh being a miller: Harms only done if they have a roleblocker.

Gives unnecessary info to scum and doesn't help town much = bad

A power role who's abilities out weigh being a miller: At least we get a miller out of the way.

Town loses an asset = v. bad

(Bolded mine)

A more important question is what advantage would you get out of further role information (if any)?

I doubt if it would really give you a better guess at my alignment. Why would it.
All it would do is confirm to mafia if I had any other powers and the mafia could then assess my threat accordingly.
I prefer to leave the uncertainty in place.

[Budja]

A more important question is what advantage would you get out of further role information (if any)?

This was the most important question.

[Budja]

Thats not good enough for me.

Now why exactly did you vote charter?

[Budja]

Well, I hope the town is sensible enough to disagree.

Arbitrary/random, its all the same really IMO.

(And seriously, you don't have to explain all your votes all the time but please try to follow a more pro-town attitude rather than stick rigidly to your "rule". I don't want this to be Crayola again).

Thats all from me for today.

[Budja]

I guess revealing my role name can't hurt, and it may help you believe me as the character is a good miller role.
I am Neil Perry, the guy who pretended to be the "ice-truck killer".

Charters PR doesn't entirely fit Masuka, but I believe him, at least for now.

[Budja]

OK, it seems I didn't notice the extra page before.

Asking for a name claim is worlds away from asking for my exact role. You now know my name but I believe it is more likely to help me convince town than help scum.

Millers should be treated as any other player, lynch them if they are scummy, simple as that.

This is the best move IMO. (of course I am bias but I would still agree from a neutral perspective.)

Enough about me now .

- Sotty's meta example makes her attitude look reasonable to me. Strikes me as concerned town.
- chamber attitude isn't good but I am getting the sense that he really does believe what he is saying, as anti-town as it is.

unvote

- Charters PR kind-of reminds me of a game I played with Juls where we could send messages of max 20 words to each other. Not much better than gut but it makes me believe charter a little more.
- Just a note that I have no real opinion of Konowa yet. I'm not getting the off-ness that Socio, charter are.

[Budja]

@Sotty, here

My opinions (again):
Chamber

was

quite obviously fishing.
Sotty was asking for a name claim. This actually had a decent purpose so wasn't bad.

@Artem, what pro-town reason does chamber have?
Also would accusing chamber of fishing really be a bad thing? (Note chamber, not sotty here).

I agree that chambers idea would reduce pressure, we should just be more careful with votes above L-2 or so.

BTW, I nameclaim and no-one comments? Did you really care that much?

[Budja]

@Locke, I have seen Dexter so that question is pretty useless but its basically because I pretended to be a SK.
@chamber, no-one agrees with you. It a

bad

idea. It had no real merits. I and others have already pointed this out. If you dislike this, too bad, I'm not full-claiming.
You know I'm a miller, you know my name. That is all you are getting.
I am not arguing over this again.

Actually, rereading a bit I can see the case on Konowa, setting a double standard as Artem says, is scummy. The rest seems more subjective and I haven't really been getting a bad feeling from his posts.
I'm still very interested in Artem's position of chamber. I am really interesting in your answer to my previous question.

Vote: Jebus

For not being right back.

Thats a little hypocritical considering I don't see much from you either.

[Budja]

Please just give in chamber. Your wrong, so obviously wrong. Why can't you see that.

If you want me dead, your probably going to have to lynch me. If I have any ability worth a NK, it is obviously not worth revealing it.

So chamber, if you had to vote for someone, now who would it be?
It really would be nice to know more of your opinions beyond your miller views.

[Budja]

As far as I`m concerned I still have a `vote` on charter, I`m just using my own suggestion, as such I thought his question was kind of pointless. I have no read of ddd, he hasn`t said much for me to get a read on. I`m working on evaluating everyone else. Speaking of which can almaster answer my questions please.

1. Is charter scummy in your opinion?
2. Do you really have no read on everyone else?

I am leaning Konowa since he keeps defending chamber.

So which do you believe is more likely: scum-defending-scum or scum-defending-town.

DDD/Socio

Why? (In 20 words or less )

Jebus needs to be poked or replaced ASAP.

QFT.

... why would scumchamber come out and do something so blatently scummy?

I don't see konowa's view here as a scumtell. All the same, "too scummy to be scum" is a fallacy (despite RBT's play in our last game) and you should know it.

@Konowa, what do you think of chamber play,

apart

from the great miller arguement.

[Budja]

Budja's ineptitude to notice that

I had noticed that but I wanted to hear it from charter.

[Budja]

Thats an odd response and a pretty weak reason for a vote.

I suspected that it was because of DDD but I wanted confirmation. Its best not to assume when you can simply ask .
Then, I wanted to know why.

Note that I do actually see charter as pro-town at this point but I like knowing people's motivations for there suspicions,etc.

[Budja]

... but mostly for reasons unrelated to this latest argument of yours.

Elaborate.

@Socio, why would I bother "feigning ignorance" anyway? I prefer fact over my personal assumption.

@Konowa, if Sotty still suss? If not who is?

[Budja]

What? No love?

Any point to this post? What did you feel from don's post?

@don, you seem oddly disinterested in this game. You are usually more aggressive. What gives?

---

@Socio, I try to explain better

Charters reasoning for his vote

could

be different from my speculation. By getting his answer, I know with a greater certainty what his motivation is.

An example: chambers first vote on charter

appeared

to me to be based on his attack on me. However when questioned, he said it was basically a random vote.

---

@DDD, thats probably just my playstyle, but I don't really know my own meta.

[Budja]

@Socio, the question wasn't that obvious to me. I really don't understand your problem with it.

Anyway good catch on DDD, a couple of buzz-words doesn't save you from actual scum-hunting. Present your reasoning.

@don, pull youself together.

To me only scum would be hesitant to explain their reads.

...and yet you call him neutral? Why?

---

vote DDD

[Budja]

Hesitation to expand isn't a scumtell at all, it's very neutral. [...] All of which I've been guilty of as town at one point or another

I do such things sometimes as town too but it is a scumtell as scum are more likely to do so.

[Budja]

@chamber, why Locke?

[Budja]

don, you are basically asking for a claim without having even giving much of an opinion on Konowa before. The purpose of a claim is a last chance to stop the lynch to save a PR, whatever. It is not the time to make decisions .

[Budja]

don, why are you completely ignoring what both Almaster and I have both already stated.

Its not what you did, its

the reasons you gave for doing it

.

to say i have contributed nothing to scumhunting is also false. i am currently engaged with several players and have TWICE pointed out faulty logic.

I am not seeing "don scumhunting", I am seeing "don covering his back". Your scumhunting are mainly defence. I am getting a strong desperation to survive vibe from your posts.
Altogether, this is giving me a strong scum/neutral read.

unvote, vote don

[Budja]

@don, part of my case of you is that your scumhunting seems limited to attacks on you. You are only further proving this.
Why is my "poorly reasoned" vote scummy?
For that matter, why is my vote poorly reasoned?

i have reasons to not think chamber is scum.

?

Secondly, you asked for a claim so you could "make up your mind" (or something to that effect). That smells strongly to me of scum angling for as valuable a target as possible because a claim should only challenge a mind already made up rather than do the actual making up on its own.

Well said. This is important and you still seem to be missing this point here. Your 287 may have given a response to Almaster (which I admit I missed), but it missed the point. I repeat, Its not asking for a claim, its why you are asking for a claim that is bad.

DJ is obvtown based on meta considerations

Where have you seen don play like this? I have played three games with don before, and his playstyle has differed a fair bit but I have never seen him look so bad (he was quicklynched over some awful logic in one game, but that wasn't really like this).

Major FOS Jebus. Following the thread, but not posting.

QFT. There's only one or so page to read. A quick post on the important situation here wouldn't be hard.

Because you can't count, I know have three times as many posts as you suggested I did. LAL?

With the amount of content you are posting, it sure doesn't feel like it.

[Budja]

No time to post now but from a glance I think you are still seriously missing the point don.

I am not against claims before lynching. I am against the way

you

asked for one.

[Budja]

...seems like awfully accurate logic imo.

@Locke, noted, I'll check it out.

@don.
Heres the fundamental difference between you and Almaster here:

Almaster:

He was attacking Konowa and has him on top of his scum list -> offering the threat of a "hammer" is a reasonably logical progression

Don

You had no opinion of Konowa -> asked for "a claim to go from there" -> scummy.

You reaction to pressure is much more scummy that this and what really warrants a vote.

You:
- attempt to deflect onto Almaster
- limit your attacks to those on your wagon
- give off a "gut" sense of desperation/panic
- and now you seem to be throwing around your softclaim as a last-ditch defence.

Thats off the top of my head.

isn't stopping a lynch to save a power role considered a "decision"?

You ask for a claim after you've made your decision on the person's alignment. Thats what decision meant in the context.

not following you. i asked for a claim from a player with five votes on them to help determine if they are the best candidate for lynch. what is the correct reason? if the claim doesn't have the chance of making a difference, then why do we ask players to claim at all?

Same again, you should have read up and decided if you liked the case of konowa first and then asked for a claim.

Its feels like just the same question over and over again.

[Budja]

Sorry for the lax posting. I was busy then I spent my free-time on Marathon day .

I'll get a response out within the day.

[Budja]

@don, yes Almaster has his faults too but I was looking at you. You are deflecting attacks here.

charter's disappearence is suss, I do agree with charter on this. I dislike those who disappeared during the don argument.

I think I need a bit of a reread. ATM happy to lynch DDD or don, chamber or konowa to a lesser extent with Almaster as the wildcard.

(quite busy, really should have posted on the weekend. Sorry about this ).

[Budja]

I don`t make cases

You're job as town is to find scum and convince others to follow you. Thats not going to happen if you always stick to your awful meta-excuse.
---

I agree with DDD on chamber. He irritates me and is very anti-town but I'm don't have a scumread,
Don is similar but his hysteria/deflection/OMGUS/survivor mentality pushes him into the scum zone.

[Budja]

How do you expect to get Locke lynched/pressured with an single, unexplained vote?

[Budja]

Just lost a post by hitting the back key .

@don,
1. I am a bit uncertain on charters nameclaim, but he is looking pro-town so I see no reason to push it.

2. I have no idea why you think your soft-claim is such a defence. It makes me a little uncertain but not enough to move my vote. Same with confirmable, unless you actually claim, you can't confirm youself. If enough people want to lynch you, we can deal with that then but otherwise its not important yet. Let the scum WIFOM.

[Budja]

@socio, why is Jebus scummier than don?

I don't like the fact that Sotty,Sociopath are popping out with lurker votes after both posting little content themselves for some time.

[Budja]

Sometimes votes are added to get lynches too you know .

I get that Sotty's vote follows her last post but Sotty has posted little in the last week or two. I'd like more from the both of them TBH.

This all said, I'm not happy with Jebus's lurking myself.

[Budja]

Sheesh don, I already think you are scum. If you reach L-1, I will want a claim.
Its not the same as what you did. You asked a player you had previously shown no opinion of to claim.
And if you think that is the only or even the main reason I am on your wagon, you really haven't been reading enough.

[Budja]

you are spewing bullshit and deflecting the real issues surrounding your play.

Do I really need to point out the hypocrisy here.

now you are not willing to make a decision about me until i claim.

I have decided you are probably scum.

budja: "but i'm a miller, so you can't lynch me."
dj: "you are scum."

I don't remember saying anything like this .

Your exchange with Konowa does nothing to make me think you thought he was scum.

----

I am not liking the sudden pile-up on Jebus, there are much better cases out there than a lurker lynch.

[Budja]

I had to resist extreme temptation in order to not vote for jebus. Because of this its hard for me to put blame on other people for doing so, even when it seems like an easy 'blame free' wagon for scum to pile on. At this point I'd like to ask that jebus be replaced.

Content now or replacement is good.

I am fine with pressure on Jebus to post. I dislike that the lurker bandwagon took off more easily than any other and this is Jebus's meta.

DDD is guilty of it too, but Konowa is scummier.

I dislike both, Konowa is slightly worse.

[Budja]

Whoops , pretend that says chamber.

[Budja]

Jebus tends to post an awful lot of I'll-catch-up-later posts from the games I played with him/read.

--

unvote, vote Konowa

This is the only decent wagon that looks like it has a hope of going anywhere.
(dw don, your certainly not forgotten).

[Budja]

Ah sheesh don, no more role info/hints please.
On the plus side, I now suspect you are a neutral role which would fit well with your play IMO.

@cyberbob, of all the thing to vote don for over that last few pages, why is this the one that gets back your vote?

[Budja]

Oh and Jebus, what made me shoot up to the #1 townie spot

apart

from my defence of you ?

[Budja]

@don, my vote is on konowa . DO you have a problem .

if you didn't want hints to my role then you should have backed off long ago.

That not how you should use your role. You never had any need to soft-claim, name-claim, etc. The fact that you did is poor play on your part and not my fault.

also, i am not neutral you twit. i am the most town you could possibly be in a game named after me. use your head. but i digress, that must be tough with it stuck up your ass for 18 pages.

Dexter is a serial killer, hardly a person I would see allying either with the town or the scum. He is self-aligned by nature. This is speculation but combined with your survivalist play I suspect a probable neutral role [/wild speculation].

(..and nice OMGUS on cyberbob. Is it that hard to look anywhere but your wagon.)

[Budja]

Reasonable.

[Budja]

don, do you know what "stop claiming" means? Your not under much attack here so you are only helping scum. Get it?
You are so horribly anti-town its not funny. Throwing around threats, "question me and I'll claim" is NOT helpful.

I can pressure you and the best thing you can do in response is give reasonable answers to my questions and show reasonable behaviour, not this constant OMGUSy panic.

If you have a NK, that is confirmable. Whether you are a town aligned vig, less so. TBH, with a vig ability in your hands I can't see the town lasting long.

[Budja]

Fine with me.

[Budja]

fair enough. sleep tight.

I wounder what that means .

I'm going to reread before night and post my views as I have lost any hope of getting don to see anything.

...and then you claim a sociopathic serial killer who feels the impulsive desire to kill regularly.

Exactly, you are at least on par with my character don .
(don't respond with any claims, hints, etc.)

[Budja]

Scum->Town.

Konowa
Debonair Danny DiPietro
chamber
AlmasterGM, Locke Lamora
don_johnson (recently moved)
Jebus, SocioPath
Sotty7
Cyberbob
charter

Nothing exceptional here but this is very basically what I am thinking. Almaster, Locke due to absence/gut. don is now neutral. Neither Jebus or Socio have posted much. Sotty is not active but has mostly good logic. Cyber,charter are actively scumhunting and make good logic.

[Budja]

@don, if you are confirmable, it is through some ability/role info we haven't seen yet (don't claim!). Dexter may be the title character but is not particularly pro-town. You

could

be a SK rather than a vig. But seriously, you are not today's lynch so stop complaining. If you are confirmable, you should be able to do so later if needed . These arguments are useless. Save it.

He should claim in his next post.

Yes.

One example of good logic from cyber plz.

Well, the recent 446 looked town motivated. He also made reasoned attacks on chamber/Konowa from a quick glance.

[Budja]

I think I understand don.
I also don't want this to devolve into insults and I don't want any further role info from you.
I suggest we leave this discussion alone for now. It seems to be causing more harm than good.

[Budja]

Yeah, I know my reasons are pretty vague but there quite a bit of gut involved and I generally worry about those near the scum side of the list until later in the game.
@Socio, what and when people are posting is much more important IMO than how much (to a limit).
I normally wouldn't post such a list but my survival chances aren't too great.

[Budja]

Sheesh, I have already given my reasons for those on the scummy side. For those on the town side, I have sketchy reasons because they are hard to articulate at this stage and I tend to focus on scum-hunting rather than town-hunting early game.

To expand: you, Sotty and Jebus (which is what you dislike), you all give me a base pro-town feel but have also done things I dislike. Sotty, Jebus disappeared for a while and you suddenly dropped off your don attack after things got interesting. I didn't like your Jebus vote either, Sotty's felt more pro-town and I believed her when she said she didn't know Jebus's meta. Also, I liked Sotty's behaviour re. my claim. So thats why she is a little more town than you, Jebus.

---

@Konowa, full claim please.

[Budja]

Thats a lynch (by usual numbers).

The Jebus wagon was bad in itself. A lurker vote (acting to meta as well) when there were much more interesting things to looks at. Both yours and DDD's votes were suss for this (Socio/Sotty less so due to earlier voting, reasons ).

If your claiming would help town more than scum, do so

before

you die.

[Budja]

... and a belated thank you to Juls .

[Budja]

hammer please.

[Budja]

That would seem a foolish risk to take for me. Lynch numbers are uncertain.

[Budja]

A facet of his role maybe, but that doesn't take into account other people's roles.

[Budja]

so don lied needlessly as town.

Looking at the Konowa wagon, I am liking Sotty and DDD more and Almaster and Locke less.

vote: Almaster

for his last-minute bus.

[Budja]

Convince me.

[Budja]

I picked it up on it but forgot about it .

Vote numbers are uncertain and Konowa did take an extra vote to lynch. So Konowa may have self-voted in an attempt to obscure the number of votes to lynch him.
Interesting, but I can't see how to gain info from it.
---
@Jebus, I would be a lot happier if you stopped with the "post later" posts and only posted when you had something to say.
---

With that in mind, thanks go out ot the mafia(or sk(or other killing role)). Might make it threw today alive with him dead.

This post almost makes me want to change my vote.
---
@chamber, try harder. 2 > 1 isn't much of a case . Prove your not dead weight.

[Budja]

@chamber, I can see one reason for not explaining votes: making the target worry/panic. Even if this is your goal, it is still best to explain your votes eventually.
Why don't you break your meta and tell me why Locke is scummy? Do you actually lose anything from doing this?
I feel that this meta is holding the game back. You are holding your cards so close that I can't read your alignment well or the validity of the attacks on you which quite frankly makes you dead weight to me right now.

@Almaster, you look like the most likely bus of konowa, the "safeclaim post" is just icing on the cake.

[Budja]

mass-claim?

I know scum have fake-claims but I wouldn't mind some role-info at this stage.

After Almaster's flip, Locke's flip doesn't surprise me. I feel much more comfortable with chamber town now, ironically more than anyone else left.

Also, we should really, really watch our votes, I don't want a repeat of yesterday.

[Budja]

I very seriously doubt it is lylo so I believe chamber.

I'd prefer that everyone claims first then chamber reveals all his results.

Neil Perry, Miller.
I have no extra abilities.

[Budja]

@Sotty, What was don's role? I had assumed that don's death was by the real dexter so your claim surprises me. Why didn't you kill night 1?

[Budja]

Who are your innocents?

[Budja]

No messages.

I will not vote until I have a full-claim from chamber.
I want role-name and innocents.


Konowa (charter, Budja, Cyberbob, don_johnson, Debonair Danny DiPietro, Locke Lamora, AlmasterGM, Sotty7)

Took an extra vote to lynch.

AlmasterGM (Budja, Sotty7, Debonair Danny DiPietro, Sociopath)

Took 1 less vote to lynch

Can anyone of these wagons explains this? (I can't)

[Budja]

No-one vote Jebus yet BTW. We still have a lot to sort out.

[Budja]

third result?

[Budja]

sorry, that was stupid .

[Budja]

I agree with DDD.

We have at least two scum, almost certainly SK and mafia, left.
If we mis-lynch today, we could reach a prisoners dilemma at worst (baring special mechanics).

vote Jebus

Best target IMO.

[Budja]

You are still the best lynch.
Your lynch simply gives the most information and I think you are scum. The Angel claim makes me more certain and Socio makes a great point above.

@Sotty, maybe for the code to be satisfied, the player must have performed a kill in the game. (possible solution to the Jebus discrepancy but pure speculation).

@Sotty, have you kept your extra vote after don's death?

[Budja]

If we lynch Jebus, as I would like. Sotty should drop the hammer at L-2.

[Budja]

@mod, what would happen if there was no majority in a deadline lynch. e.g. 2 votes on 1 player, 1 vote on another in a 4 player endgame

I'll explain after this question is answered.

[Budja]

Ouch.
Ok, I have something to add. My vote doesn't count against the ice truck killer.
If I survive to an endgame with ITK left, we will lose. So even if Jebus is mafia, as I suspect, I think the ITK can endgame us even with 4 alive.

Sorry about this. I was hoping we would hit the ITK earlier and I wouldn't have to deal with this.

unvote

We can lynch me today and hope for cross-kills (assuming mafia and SK alive) or we take a risk at one of DDD or Socio (I don't think Jebus is ITK).

If anyone can think of a better option, speak up.

[Budja]

^ yes.

Isn't anyone else concerned by my post?

[Budja]

You aren't looking for the mafia, you are looking for the SK.

DDD was the first to mention the ITK as the SK back in post 637.
In fact, both Jebus and DDD seem to have taken the existance of an ITK serial killer as granted.

I think we've caught both our scum here.

vote Jebus

[Budja]

I think you should hammer.

[Budja]

If Sotty's hammer does not kill Jebus, I'll then unvote and someone else can hammer.
This will confirm Sotty if Jebus is the ITK.

[Budja]

Ok,

I am not voting today as I can only lynch town.

Sotty must be town. It explains a lot, especially the link with don. Also a double-voting SK would be overpowered will me alive as well.

So its chamber or Socio.
I think Socio is the ITK. chamber hasn't been as focused on self-preservation as I think an SK would be.

[Budja]

*with me alive...

[Budja]

That was horrible chamber.

Sotty has a double vote which can counteract my no-vote.
Why should I place my vote when it can (very very probably) only lynch town.

[Budja]

@Juls, provided chamber investigates scummy people, the vig was a bonus.

Thank you Juls for a really enjoyable game. (The pictures were a nice touch.)