Mini 873 Plainview Game Over

[Muffin]

vote: archaebob

cause we've played together before

[Muffin]

I post that RVS is inane. So right now I'm going to short circuit it.

I hate the RVS too, actually. I usually try to do things to stay out of it or to end it as quickly as possible.

Question to Muffin: What do you think Town gains from having a RVS?

Not much, really. But I was on a laugh high from reading /b/ mafia and also wanted to give a quick shout-out to archaebob whom I clashed with hard in Newbie 846.

Do you think that smiley faces make you seem less threatening and more Townie?

No, I think any reasoning individual could tell that my vote was not threatening. I use smiley faces because emotion doesn't convey well via text and I wanted to reinforce the tongue-in-cheekness of my post.

[Muffin]

I hope you're not serious bob

[Muffin]

Muffin, you've also played with foilist 13. Why me specifically?

Just because you and I butted heads a lot in our previous game... I don't really know if we're supposed to talk about it because it's technically still in progress despite the fact that you, foilist and myself are all dead.

Nothing against Foilist, and not a buddying attempt on you, but he really only replaced in at the end of the day and we didn't interact much before I was killed (by sanjay it seems).

[Muffin]

oh, and i found the scum buddy as well.

HOS Gamma Gooey

for that idiotic comment about Jigglypuff being superior.

There, game over we win. Now let's bandwagon and lynch these scumbags.

God, you're annoying. I hope you get killed quickly.

Why does bob's post annoy you so much? What would you prefer he have done/said?

[Muffin]

I'm inclined to agree with Spyrex and Mordy, actually.

[Muffin]

@ Muffin - I'm actually still wondering what you were referring to if you asked me if I was serious.

oh, and i found the scum buddy as well.

HOS Gamma Gooey

for that idiotic comment about Jigglypuff being superior.

There, game over we win. Now let's bandwagon and lynch these scumbags.

[Muffin]

EBWOP: "Almaster", sorry

You are SO lucky you corrected that.

[Muffin]

Not sure if Almaster is serious or not, but when I first signed up to the site I read through a couple games before I played. If this is a serious case it's ridiculous.

It's absolutely ridiculous. When I signed up on the site and got into my first newbie game I went and read some games too.

[Muffin]

I would actually venture to say the biggest scumtell so far comes from Muffin who is "inclined to agree" nice and early so if the BW stays strong toward end of deadline, he can say "I said I agreed on p2!". It's an agreement without a vote, HoS, or FoS.

I said only "I'm inclined to agree" because I don't think Alamaster's behaviour has been ultra super omg scummy. I think his argument is ridiculous, but having a ridiculous argument does not a scum make.

And secondly... do you honestly think in a 12-player game, that a silly bandwagon from page 2 is going to stay nice and strong through to the end? I highly doubt it. If this game-day ends in fewer than 15 pages I will be greatly surprised.

Then again maybe you'd like this bandwagon to push through to a lynch real quick? Eager to test out your night kill?

What you got to say about that Pastry-boy? If you're inclined to agree, where's your bolded statement of where you stand?

FoS: Muffin

(<----There's mine )

My bolded statement aka my vote is currently on archaebob for a random vote. I will

unvote

since we're past that now.

I don't FoS because fossing is arbitrary and has no meaning. If you want to know what my opinions are though, I think that you're trying to be real cautious, saying things like "this game is moving nicely" and how you don't think a pressure vote is needed. You lambast me for not taking a stance yet all you can put up is a measly fos that has zero impact on the game? We call that hypocrisy where I come from and in my experience the only players who need to create or rely on double standards are scum.

I'm the kind of player who always likes everyone to be voting for someone, because it provides a clear and readable trail of whom each player's prime suspicions (real or fabricated) rest on. No going through and trying to decide which carries more weight: the toenail of suscpicion or the hair follicle of suspicion?

Earlier on you admit to not reading the thread carefully (scumtell) and now the double standards/hypocrisy.

I find this more compelling than Alamaster's misguided thoughts as to the behaviour of "all townies" and the responses thereto.

vote: chinaman

[Muffin]

Hello Archaebob and Muffin

/me waves hello

[Muffin]

I want other people to comment on this.

Comment on what, specifically? The exchange between you and foilist? Please clarify or link/quote/whatever.

I agree that foilist appears to be reading/replying selectively and the fact that he is continuing is raising my eyebrows, to say the least.

I also agree though, that your approach has been less than diplomatic.

[Muffin]

Yeah I'm disappointed /b/ mafia was shut down too.

[Muffin]

URATFM = you are a total fucking moron

kirby is a goddamn beast, and i will not stand to hear you or anyone else say otherwise.

[Muffin]

@ Muffin - have I been particularly undiplomatic in this game?

I mean, y'all from 846 have a very specific idea of what kind of player I am, though the truth is I've been trying out different metas for all of my games. I don't think I've been notably abrasive in this game so far, except perhaps in direct response to foilist.

No, I don't think you've been particularly abrasive or undiplomatic. Certainly more cooperative than 846, but then again I have a high threshold for that sort of thing.

[Muffin]

There's another example of this from Muffin (I'll quote Chinaman, who first noted this in post 49):

I would actually venture to say the biggest scumtell so far comes from Muffin who is "inclined to agree" nice and early so if the BW stays strong toward end of deadline, he can say "I said I agreed on p2!". It's an agreement without a vote, HoS, or FoS.

So what does this mean? I don't think this early in the game either of these tells mean that the players are definitively scummy, but it does bother me that they've decided to "lay low." Muffin somewhat mediates this in post 89 (though the OMGUS vote is ridiculous). He's otherwise struck me as participating, though I plan to keep an eye on him in case he tries to buddy/hedge in other places.

Haha... yeah in hindsight it does look rather like an omgus vote. I look at it this way though:

He says I'm laying low and trying not to stick my neck out too far, but only throws a FoS down. No matter what you or I or chinaman or anyone else says or would like to believe,

fossing someone doesn't actually do anything

. It doesn't matter what anyone says because

only votes are counted

.

So when he criticizes me for not taking a stance and purposefully doesn't take one on his own, how can that be anything other than hypocrisy?

The exact same argument he applies to me can be applied to him. "See? I said I agreed when I fossed!". It's an agreement without a vote.

[Muffin]

Can you please point out any posts of mine that actually correlate to anything you accused me of doing? In case you don't think you are accusing me of anything, point out where I:

-do you honestly think in a 12-player game, that a silly bandwagon from page 2 is going to stay nice and strong through to the end?

Sure, I can point out where you insinuated a bandwagon from page 2 would carry on through to the end of the day. It's right here:

I would actually venture to say the biggest scumtell so far comes from Muffin who is "inclined to agree" nice and early so if the BW stays strong toward end of deadline, he can say "I said I agreed on p2!".

-Earlier on you admit to not reading the thread carefully (scumtell) and now the double standards/hypocrisy.

I can point that out too. That would be here:

so I'm gonna have to go back and look at who exactly did what and when....unless you wanna quote it for me????

As for this one... do you really need me to point out where you attacked me for not taking a stance or for taking a middle ground or whatever you want to call it?

You lambast me for not taking a stance yet all you can put up is a measly fos that has zero impact on the game? We call that hypocrisy where I come from and in my experience the only players who need to create or rely on double standards are scum.

---

So, what were you attempting to do in this post, bread? I pointed out you didn't do any sort of suspicion bold statement and you turn it into hypocrisy based on how you think people should play?

I was trying to expose your bullshit logic and also to explain why I switched my vote to you.

If you can't point out where I did all those things, you WILL get your wish and have me vote. It will be for you btw...so no surprises.

So since I pointed them out, you still gonna vote me?

[Muffin]

So....did you totally ignore my posts that came before Mordy's? I was calling you a liar in case you missed it. Don't worry, there's another one after Mordy's that you can put with the first one that you skipped and respond to both at the same time. I will admit they are talking about the same thing with the 2nd expounded a little bit, but still....

Was this directed at me? You need to start addressing your posts.

[Muffin]

So....did you totally ignore my posts that came before Mordy's? I was calling you a liar in case you missed it. Don't worry, there's another one after Mordy's that you can put with the first one that you skipped and respond to both at the same time. I will admit they are talking about the same thing with the 2nd expounded a little bit, but still....

If it was addressed to me, I assume you're referring to post 99:

Earlier on you admit to not reading the thread carefully (scumtell) and now the double standards/hypocrisy.

Misrepresent much? Here's an

HoS: Muffin

for ya. Oh, and guess what, I don't have to play by your rules now do I? I'll vote when I'm good and ready to and not a moment too soon. Opinions are like assholes remember?.... I think an FoS and the like are just as readable as a vote. To say they aren't is just your opinion, but I will build a case on someone FoS'ing someone else just a quick as if they voted.

Why on earth would I respond to this? First of all you didn't ask me anything. Second of all it can be summed up as "yeah? well I'm playing my way so there!"

What sort of response were you hoping for, exactly?

[Muffin]

No matter what you or I or chinaman or anyone else says or would like to believe, fossing someone doesn't actually do anything. It doesn't matter what anyone says because only votes are counted.

This isn't precisely true. Trying to create a good read here has nothing to do with the actual effects of an FoS, only with the perceived effects of an FoS. Which is to say: If Chinaman believes an FoS is more potent than doing nothing at all, he isn't a hypocrite if he makes an FoS but lays into you for doing nothing. If Chinaman, however, agreed that an FoS did nothing, then you'd in fact have a case against him. (Ie: My personal opinions on FoS's, Votes, etc, mean nothing here. All that is important in verifying Chinaman's hypocrisy is whether he is actually at odds with his own beliefs. And as far as I can tell, he is not.)

..................... well I suppose I see your point. But I still think fossing is retarded. Since it has no effect, it ultimately has no purpose.

Either way, the fact remains that Chinaman has decided his way is the only way, since he thinks I'm scummy for not fossing or using some other kind of bolded statement. Then he gets on my case saying "I don't have to play by your rules, do I?"

So... I have to play by his rules (since not fossing makes me scummy) but he doesn't have to play by mine? Fuck that. That's still hypocrisy right there.

[Muffin]

muffin p110: I accused you of misrepresenting me...you had nothing to say to that?

Not really, no. I addressed it in my reply to your other post.

So you don't mind misrepresenting people or don't feel the need to prove you weren't....

muffin p111: So what's your actual reason for voting me now? Outa curiosity.

Well you already know the reason I voted you. The reason it's still on you is because I haven't seen anything else yet that I feel is more deserving of my vote.

You might call my case against you flimsy (and maybe it is) but it's a case nonetheless and it's the best I've got at this early stage in the game.

[Muffin]

Also, IMO Withholding a vote and placing an FOS or HOS is not Pro-town. It doesn't commit you to a wagon, and it makes it a lot harder to follow your thoughts when looking back through the game at Day 4ish.

By only placing HOS's and FOS's it allows the scum to encourage a mislynch, and then when the player flips town, they can say, well i wasn't voting him or something like that.

So IMO, a player should have a

Vote

down at all times...

This.

[Muffin]

Speaking of activity.

I'd like to hear more from lexprod and peanutman.

And by more I mean.... anything.

[Muffin]

Same for me. Was busy most of the day yesterday and probably will be busy until Monday evening. Post later.

[Muffin]

Just checking in to say, as I said earlier, probably won't have time to post until late tonight.

[Muffin]

Argh, sorry guys. I got busy with some RL stuff, catching up now.

also

unvote

for now

[Muffin]

Going to respond to foilist's case on me first.

Then in posts 85 and 86 he literally says nothing.

Post 85 was a direct response to a question put to me by archaebob. Post 86 was expressing how unconvinced I was by Alamaster's internet tough guy act.

It's absolutely ridiculous. When I signed up on the site and got into my first newbie game I went and read some games too.

Here he ignores the actual argument.

Try that again. The argument was that townies looking up other people is ridiculous. I stated that I read a whole bunch of games to get meta prior to my first game. As you know from that game I was town.

So tell me again how I ignored the argument?

Ok after the first quote he starts by arguing semantics, then simply says a bandwagon now won't hold to the end of the day,

It won't

and makes a non-serious poke at Chinaman. Nice and meaty looking, but no content worth noting.

Who says my vote wasn't serious?

Then he makes a long chunky couple of paragraphs about how Fos'ing is useless. Again, he has posted nothing of relevance.

IMO fossing is useless. Obviously you disagree.

Comment on what, specifically? The exchange between you and foilist? Please clarify or link/quote/whatever.

I agree that foilist appears to be reading/replying selectively and the fact that he is continuing is raising my eyebrows, to say the least.

I also agree though, that your approach has been less than diplomatic.

Again, nothing of relevance. A bit of a stab at me, and a comment about Archaebob's play style.

You're really trying hard to twist my words, aren't you? How can there be something relevant if I didn't know what he was asking?

That's why I asked for clarification

. HURRRRR DURRRRRR.

...........

This is another post that looks nice and meaty, but in fact says next to nothing. He basically says he was turning Chinaman's non-existent logic on himself and voting for him to make a point. Ok fine, more power to Muffin.

Then in his next point he reiterates all of the things he said in his last few posts for Chinaman.

Your argument here is what, exactly? That I repeated myself after I made my point? How damning.

...

......

..................... well I suppose I see your point. But I still think fossing is retarded. Since it has no effect, it ultimately has no purpose.

Either way, the fact remains that Chinaman has decided his way is the only way, since he thinks I'm scummy for not fossing or using some other kind of bolded statement. Then he gets on my case saying "I don't have to play by your rules, do I?"

So... I have to play by his rules (since not fossing makes me scummy) but he doesn't have to play by mine? Fuck that. That's still hypocrisy right there.

Here he gives up his point, but then makes the same one about something infinitely more minor. Chinaman is not playing particularly intelligently, but Muffin isn't playing at all.

Yeah this is why I gave up the argument, because I realized it was just filler that would distract the rest of the town. You can see what happens when town gets distracted and spends like 4 pages arguing a non-issue in newbie 846.

[Muffin]

Ha! Kirby? Kirby is the most pathetic choice of character you could make! Gee, I dunno know who I'll choose.... Hey! This one has a lame version of all of them!

Meta Knight's where it's at.

And let's be serious here, I'm not the only one who has posted non-game-related content.

[Muffin]

As for AlamasterGM, I think he's probably town. The early serious vote seems to be more of a newbie town mistake or some combination of No True Scotsman and Confirmation Bias fallacies. Ultimately I see Alamaster as somebody with the right idea but the wrong direction, if that makes any sense. I will have to read some meta on Alamaster to further this.

After re-reading that exchange between Alamaster and Moody a couple of things caught my eye.

1.

If I've expressed the opinion, either explicitly or implicitly through my actions, that bandwagoning can be valuable, and I was Town at the time that I expressed the opinion, obviously that opinion is not a scumtell on me in this game, correct? (This should be very simple, but correct me if I'm missing something obvious.) On Day One of Mini 843 (Fast and the Furious), post 27 (and then later on), I act on the same belief. Not only was I town in that game, but it's a game town ended up winning. So if you believe it's not helpful for townie, you're entitled, and feel free to start a topic on Mafia Discussion to discuss it. But it's a principle I believe, I've used before as town, and I'll continue to use in future games until I believe it's no longer useful. It's not a scumtell.

This post is a heap of WIFOM and doesn't really address the issue. Saying "bandwagoning is pro-town" is a null tell at best.

2.

Unstoppable wagon piles up on foilist13. If foilist13 is town, and archaebob is scum, archaebob stays quiet and he's got a perfectly easy lynch on day one and a lot of fingers to point it at (me, SpyreX, whoever else jumps on top) on day two. So the fact that he spoke up with meta that at least slowed the wagon (if not ended it), makes it an implicitly townie act. Only non-townie scenario is that archaebob AND foilist13 are scum, but look at this thread and tell me if that makes any sense at all. Not sure if SpyreX has anything more slam-dunk than that (he may very well), but that's what has me convinced archaebob is town.

I personally don't like trying to predict D2 results and behaviours, as it mostly just serves to give scum a list of do's and don'ts for avoiding suspicions. MordyS can you please explain why you're wasting time predicting day2 stuff? I'd rather we focus effort on D1.[/url]

[Muffin]

I also notice that Cruelty has been trying (somewhat successfully) to stay in the shadows. With only 8 posts in the thread he's at about 1 post every 3 pages, and here they are.

Oh here I am. Sorry, timezones etc + working = L(ish)A over wed/thurs US time.


Anyway, I want my RV so

vote: Chinaman

for continuously being in all my mini-normal games.



Not sure if Almaster is serious or not, but when I first signed up to the site I read through a couple games before I played. If this is a serious case it's ridiculous.

Having said that, I agree that an early bandwagon is dangerous; that's exactly what scum want. Something they can hide in and hopefully push a mislynch through quickly. If that happens, town is immediately down 2 barring a lucky doctor save (which would be luck if this hypowagon moved quickly).

Not much other than a /confirm and randomvote.

It makes sense, to me at least, for a town player to research a player they're suspicious of, but to go and look up everyone or even random people at the very beginning?

@f13: Would you agree that it makes sense for a new player to read through some games before jumping into a game of his or her own?


As archaebob said, Almaster leaped to the assumptiong that Gamma researched [at least him, possibly all of us]. Gamme actually said nothing of the sort, so this is a point of massive misrepresentation.



@everyone (you don't need to reply, just think about it); did you register and immediately start playing in a game, or did you register and flick through a few games before you started playing?

More about noobs reading through games.

What was the purpose of this question though? Are you suggesting that he might have encountered Almaster before? Maybe, but that is extremely unlikely, especially if he is a relatively new player.

Seems pretty straightforward to me..

All I wanted to know was if you thought it was reasonable to read through games before jumping in - you said it was. It's not

that

unreasonable to think that someone in one of those games ends up playing in this game - Chinaman has been in my last 3 mini-normals.

more of the same

I'm here, been busy during the weekend and the little time I did have I put into another game, because this one was harder to read.


Yeah my RVS vote is still there, so

unvote

.


I'm skeptical of AGM in general, I thought that he came out of the gates like a bull and it almost seemed deliberate, the amount of attention he was drawing to himself. Then he presents a ridiculous case and disappears, I thought it almost seemed like he was behaving scummy on purpose, creating a WIFOM defence or something.

I'm not really down with foilist, I think that you're scrambling, I don't entirely agree with your epic wall post (I think Muffin tends to waffle (get it?) on a bit but I wouldn't say he's entirely devoid of content) but I'm not sure that it makes you scum. I think that you're making it easy for us to lynch you, but I also think that you could be explained away as an irritatingly stubborn person. I'm undecided as to which.

Unvoting from RVS and planting himself firmly on the fence.

@ cruelty - I want to avoid any more arguments about whether or not it's necessary to always be voting, so I'll just say this: can you please indicate who you overall find the most suspicious right now?.

Foilist, but as I said I'm not 100% decided, and I don't want to contribute to a quick wagon.

I don't like scumlists, I think that it's an easy way for scum to work out who to target - take out the people that everyone thinks are town, and then you're left with a bunch of shady characters. Stop posting them please, they should really be only used at the end of the day by a player who is a likely lynch (so he or she can get his feelings/info out for town).

Also not really sure why you're all over me for activity; it's been the weekend after all.

How would you determine which it is? I'm wondering myself whether foilist13 is just stubborn (to the point of looking horribly scummy), or scummy and scrambling. I'm not sure how to separate it, though, as instead of a mea culpa, every answer foilist13 gives just retrenches himself.

At this point I don't think you can. If he's scum he's obviously worried and will slip up sooner or later, if he's town he'll plateau. I get the impression that scumfoilist does not have the blood of an assassin running through his veins, he aint ice cold.

I also think foilist is running a huge OMGUS game here. He's basically getting scummy vibes from anyone who dares question him, this isn't really a tell as such, just a general observation that his opinion of who and who isn't scum seems to be relatively worthless at this point.

Archaebob manages to drag out an admission of whom cruelty finds scummiest, although the last two paragraphs in the post tend to contradict this opinion though. Cruelty doesn't think his #1 suspect has the blood of an assassin running through his veins. His #1 suspect also seems to him to be relying largely on OMGUS. That logic stinks.

@ cruelty - can I assume then that you do not find Muffin at all suspicious?

You can assume whatever you like.

Being unhelpful

@ Cruelty - I'm saying that only because you said foilist's suspicions were entirely worthless. Muffin is his top suspect, so I extrapolated. Is this incorrect, or not? I don't understand why you are hostile to me.

Not hostile.


I just don't want to show my entire hand - it's related to my stance on scumlists. If I find someone suspicious to a point whereby I think everyone should look at them, then I'll post.


And no, I wouldn't rule Muffin out because he's at odds with foilist. Like I said, I'm not 100% on foilist for a start, and you can never ignore bussing, or potentially 2 anti-town factions (eg: mafia/sk). That said, I'm not going to speculate about partners/bussing/multiple factions, I only bring them up to show my line of thinking.

I rather agree with Cruelty's opnion(s) about scumlists, actually. But only scumlists. Playing everything close to the chest is IMO not pro-town. (Not that it's necessarily anti-town either, if that makes sense).

Mordy and Spyrex: please don't post a response to AGM yet. I want to see afatchic, Chinaman, Muffin, and cruelty stake out their positions, based on everything that has happened so far.

You know what I want to hear? YOUR position.

This.



I've already stated I'm not going to give away my hand just because you asked me to. This isn't anti-town, it's quite simply the fact that the more information the scum have the easier their NKs (and their pushes for mislynches) become.




I saw the softclaim in AGMs post, not really sure why it's there given a lack of relative heat in your direction, but whatever.

...

...

Quoted the whole post but snipped out the parts I'm not responding to. First of all: the AGM quote in cruelty's post doesn't contain a softclaim to my eyes...

Secondly I disagree that more info is good for scum. More info is good for town, who are uninformed. Scum already have a lot of info since they know all the alignments to begin with.

I'd appreciate if you could at least vote. You've mentioned that you think foilist overall is the most suspicious. Any reason why you haven't voted yet?

Yes. I'm not confident enough in my read to want to help the wagon gain steam. I'm not one to throw my vote around; I'll pressure vote but that's not necessary at this time. I also don't like being asked to vote when there's no current urgency. Rest assured I won't be sitting on the fence at the end of the day.

I'm also intrigued by the recent AGM developments; I'm questioning whether or not to elevate him in my (not to be openly discussed) scumlist.

defending another player is not necessarily scummy. We're trying to find the scum and avoid lynching town, so if we see someone we think is town be accused of scum it would be logical to defend them if you think the argument is faulty.

I tend to agree with this in general. However.

Defending someone is fine, assuming they get the opportunity to defend themselves first. Town has no reason to pre-empt a defence for someone else; often how someone defends themselves is more telling than an attack so by defending someone before they defend themselves, you're effectively coaching them with how they should (assuming you make a good defensive case) defend themselves - they can basically quote you and agree.

That's not to say pointing out logical flaws in an attack is scummy; there's a difference between "argument x is illogical and this is why" and "player x is not scummy and this is why".

Still fence sitting, saying he's merely "intrigued" by the alamasterGM developments. I agree with the second part of the post though.

I normally try to avoid posting walls-of-text but I figured it was best, to avoid them being broken up in case someone posted in between. More content to come later.

[Muffin]

With only 8 posts in the thread he's at about 1 post every 3 pages, and here they are.

What kind of shitty maths is that?

Sorry, I meant 2 posts every 3 pages.

[Muffin]

@ Muffin -

I sincerely hope you didn't think you could just go back to lurking as soon as we moved our votes to someone else.

Certainly not.

Unfortunately it's midterm time at my university and, quite frankly mafia is low priority at the moment. Am currently catching up and will post soon.

[Muffin]

All right guys I think I need to ask for a replace because I'm just too busy right now IRL and I just can't keep up with this game.

Sorry.

@mod: please replace me