Mini 886 - Popcorn Mafia - Game over!

[Bogre]

Public service announcement:

Do not deliberately act scummy so that you will get the gun.

.

Why would scum give the gun to a scummy person and confirm them as town?

[Bogre]

Bogre is likely scum here... I wouldn't expect town to make that mistake, but scum might (because they've been thinking about picking the initial gunbearer).

Ah.

On the contrary, scum would know that they can only choose the initial gunbearer.

[Bogre]

@Vala

Unless you want to give me the gun, you shouldn't shoot me.

[Bogre]

Unless you want to give me the gun, you shouldn't shoot me.

I don't find this very compelling.

Why? I'm not personally afraid of being shot. Are you?

[Bogre]

Why? I'm not personally afraid of being shot. Are you?

Yeah, it would be lame if Vala died. Both scum and town should wish to avoid being shot, Bogre.

As for why I don't find your response compelling, it's because it amounts to you just stating that you are town. It's kinda meh.

I most definitely want to avoid being shot, because it will be a loss to town. But I am not -afraid- of it...do you see the distinction? Scum have the most to lose from being targetted, not town.

[Bogre]

I most definitely want to avoid being shot, because it will be a loss to town. But I am not -afraid- of it...do you see the distinction? Scum have the most to lose from being targetted, not town.

How is this any different from a normal game?

It's not.

[Bogre]

I think Bogre's line of thinking is that if you're shot, and you're town, you don't die, so there's nothing to be afraid of.

I'm not sure I agree; or, more clearly, I think I might be on Xyl's side on this one. Even though it might be more fun to play in a game until the end, a town win is a town win, and your priority should be ensuring the win of the town, not your personal survival.

Got you.

You don't die, the confirmed town player does. It's the same as a mislynch, which is bad for the town. But you aren't affected.

But I think you've made a misstep here. There is not a very high likelihood of surviving to the endgame, even as the gunbearer. For instance, if I was to be shot, then I'd likely die at some point after that, though I believe I'm pretty good at finding scum. I'm not afraid of that, either.

You are suggesting my goal is personal survival, which I haven't given any suggestion of. You seem to be thinking of personal survival a lot- which is a scum move.

FOS RITE

[Bogre]

You are lying.

Tell us something we don't know, if only to give Vala (and the rest of us) a sense of how you play.

You also scumslipped. You said you know I'm a townie, and to tell us something you don't know. Only scum know I'm a townie.

So, you're scum.

[Bogre]

Rite is scum.

You may fire when ready.

[Bogre]

Bogre is pretty clearly in the wrong here. i don't know if it makes him scum or not, but he's defiantly not making sense.

Define why I am clearly in the wrong. Why are you defending the scum, Yos? Rite has scumslipped and should be shot. Sarag is hung up on the fact that of everyone, I was asked to answer 'why shouldn't you shoot me'. Well, the fact is that she shouldn't shoot me because a) she would die, and thats bad for the town, and b) it would be much better if she shot Rite.

I am curious as to what a better answer of that would be, Sarag. Obviously she will see that I am scumhunting (and actually have found one). Why shouldn't she shoot you?

Your first feeling should be, 'because then she'd die.' If its not, then YOU ARE SCUM.

[Bogre]

"I'm a townie so don't shoot me." We all know that.

...

[Bogre]

Why shouldn't she shoot me? Because I'm an active player, I try to keep my posts game-relevant, on topic and try to be clear about what's actually going on. As town, I will pay attention and make a good effort to scum hunt. As scum, I will leave a long paper trail.

The point of such a question is to get you to say something about yourself, or your play style, to say why you think you're valuable to the game - to help Vala get a read on you.

Your take on it is indeed worthwhile.

However, you should understand that I was presenting the position that I knew would garner reactions. It's generated a lot of discussion, which was part of why I did it. Many other answers to that question would have been been impossible to prove/be easily taken as a simple answer and passed over.

[Bogre]

Bogre, my first reaction to that post is: Holy backtracking, Batman!!

I think it's more likely that you just didn't know how to answer. But, ok, you did it to spark discussion. If you say so.

To get reactions, really.

[Bogre]

I knew exactly how to answer, and it was intended. I am, and will be, unapologetic for that. I don't think there was a 'better' answer than what I gave.

[Bogre]

I don't have much to add except for the fact that I don't really buy into the whole "I know it was scummy, but I did it on purpose, so it's not a tell" Scene.

I don't think my answer was scummy. And I am hardly backtracking- the luxury of this game is that I have the freedom to act pretty dynamically to see how people bend or prickle in response. I mean, no one can cause my death except myself, so its really moot on what anyone else thinks of -me-. Naturally I don't want to cause a mishot, but what I am hoping is that, as I said, the gunbearer will find a better target through my scumhunting.

[Bogre]

Oh hello, scum.

[Bogre]

Exactly.

What anyone thinks of Bogre might not kill Bogre, but it will certainly kill Vala Mal Doran, a confirmed townie. By recklessly disregarding Vala Mal Doran's life, Bogre is playing squarely against the town's best interests.

Have you been listening? To anything?

I am not playing with a disregard for her life. In fact, I have so kindly warned her how she may preserve it.

[Bogre]

wait how is Bogre scummy ITT, and how are we scummy by proxy for defending him; when he clearly acts like this every game. Do you disagree?

I mean I don't have the luxury of being this boat-rocking usually, hah.

Xyl, explain exactly why my play is anti-town.

Has it:
a) Created a large distraction?
b) Obscured the real point of the game?
c) Done anything but give Vala more information in shooting scum?

The answer is no.

Possible scumteam of rite and Xyl?

I think yes

[Bogre]

@Yos.

It's not that he's saying the town is hurt by a townie being shot. I mean, that's pretty simple to know.

It's the other things he's focusing on, and the way he's presenting his argument.

[Bogre]

He was focusing on personal survival. He thought my entire answer was based off wanting to survive myself, which isn't true. He pretty much said what everyone knows and nothing else except fluff and scumslips.

[Bogre]

FOS Sarag

Only scum play soft.

You were really concerned with me, then backed off.

Rite and Sarag are good targets.

Also, you guys are whack if you think my play is anti-town. You have -never- seen anyone hardline someone to see how they respond until pressure, or if they buckle? It is a fairly effective scumhunting tactic, IMO.

[Bogre]

Scum: Bogre, Sarag, ortolan, DraketheFake

No, it's that he's defending Bogre, Sarag and Drake, all three who I think have a chance to be scum. If some of them end up being town, then yes, I think there's a chance ort is scum.

You make my brains hurt.

If person A defended person B, C, and D, and only person B, C, and D, and all three of person B, C, and D flipped scum, you would consider that a point in person A's favor? Really?

I believe she's referencing the fact that it's unlikely he'd be so openly defending every scumbuddy of his.

[Bogre]

It occurs to me that correct play as a townie is to encourage being shot, but that the way to avoid being shot is not to try and avoid being shot. Which is a bit of a mindfuck, but the last thing a scum wants is to be shot: it's a huge momentum swing, etc. Townies, on the other hand, should want the gun, or at least not be averse to it. Bogre's "don't shoot me I'm town" attitude makes even less sense in this light, especially in regards to his appeal to Vala's life.

Okay...your first statement is good-ish. This is what I've been saying (though it apparantly didn't get through well) the entire time. You shouldn't be -encouraging- being shot, that's pretty stupid. Just not FEARFUL of it, and checking your own actions because of a desire -not- to appear scummy.

The second isn't so much. Townies shouldn't be overly desireful of the gun, they should just not be afraid of getting shot and getting it.

Yet- here's the kicker. I feel awfully like you're echoing my sentiments (though you've not really got the right jist of what I'm saying), because they are town, while trying to say I am opposed to them.

Secondly- You're bending before the gunbearer. Trying to get back under the radar? You're right- weaseling out from under the gun is a scum tell. And that's what you're doing.

I'll reiterate, since it's came back into discussion:
Townies should prioritize hunting scum first and worry about getting shot second. To this end, figuring out who is the most evasive and tries to squeak away from town suspicion is probably scum. This means that townies prioritizing hunting scum and not becoming horridly concerned with making themselves look good and not scummy won't confuse the gunbearer as to who's vacillating.

And naturally, since the obvious scum play to avoid the above is to be aggressive, find the weakly aggressive players who piggyback on the others.

E.G. Rite.

[Bogre]

I also want to know how the opinions of a confirmed town player compare to my own, because that is a good way of calibrating whether the reactions I might get from other players are town or scummy.

That is scummy.

[Bogre]

stuff

Hey, way to read through the thread and post, uh, nothing new.

Pretty easy to parrot the things -everyone- else has come up with.

Why are you calling my finding of ritescum as an EPIC FAIL?

[Bogre]

drake isn't scum, I'm not scum, Hacker's last post makes me suspect he's worried about being shot by town-Bogre (not that Bogre's other posts haven't themselves been scummy).

Dunno about Sarag.

I'm obviously not worried about being shot by scum-Bogre. Nobody wants to get shot at here, so I don't know how that would be an indicator of alignment.

Are you now thinking that Bogre is scum? Weren't you of the opinion that Bogre is town?

I believe his post he's saying I'm town, but that the general consensus is that I was playing badly by focusing on your predecessors' scumminess, and so might be shot. He's saying that your worried that since I'll then get the gun, I'll shoot you.

You're misrepresenting him.

[Bogre]

- Bogre thinks he knows the definition of anti-town. You forget that anti-town also means self preservation instead of trying to win. You're anti-town because you are too worried about staying alive instead of trying to help your team.

You obviously haven't been reading carefully. I have hardly played 'worrying about staying alive'. You are suggesting the EXACT OPPOSITE of what I have been saying.

[Bogre]

That would be because I still felt rite was scum. So you've been getting suspicious of me for not being convinced by your opinions. Welp, I think your opinions are wrong about him.

Nothing he (or Hackerhuck) has done has made me think he's anything more than noobscum.

[Bogre]

You were ignoring his actual statement and responding to something else entirely: he was saying that you were afraid I would shoot you if I became the gunbearer.

Overall I don't think that town Bogre would be a bad gunbearer, but I feel that he's too focused on me and Xyl.

This is why your scum. I don't recall ever mentioning Xyl, or been focusing on him at all.

[Bogre]

Ah, so I did. I remember that was my :eyeroll, chuckle: response to your scum-pairings, heh.

Why are you worried and defensive about that, Hackerhuck?

[Bogre]

Rite, Drake, zalurkeri

[Bogre]

^Hackerhuck, if you will.

[Bogre]

Can someone please post the basic case against Drake? I have read over the last three pages, and all I see is a case against his inactivity. I was planning on reading the full thread today, but real life caught up with me.

Worry about who appears scummy to you before worrying about the case against Drake.

[Bogre]

So far, Bogre seems like the most scummy person in the game, but not enough for a lynch (shooting).

Uhhh, what is this? You should be pushing for my lynch if you think I am that scummy, not hardcore waffling and trying to appear involved but really being soft.

What you have done is essentially hop on the 'easy' sentiment, i.e. that of people who have disliked my cavalier actions earlier, and said 'Bogre is scummy'.

@Yos: This is what I was talking about with Hackerhuck. It's a boon, actually, that its kind of easy to pick out people going for easy arguments to make it look like they're playing.

[Bogre]

HowardRoark did.

[Bogre]

@Sarag:
Explain to me this: You think I'm tunneling on Hackerhuck, who you think is the most scummy.

Do you think I am trying to bus him? Or do you keep me up there because it is the safe and popular thing to do?

Rewq's heavy speculation on what would happen if Vala rapidfires is odd. I think the chances of her rapidfiring are very, very slim, and she'll obviously stop if she hits a townie. I agree that there isn't much of a reason to rapidfire, but honestly, did anyone else take Xyl's suggestion seriously? It seems rewq did and wants to look really worried about it.

[Bogre]

Bad choice. I warned you.

Alright guys, who should I shoot?

Oh right, you all are horrible at finding scum.

[Bogre]

Howard Roark:

What exactly strikes you as

strong

about Xyl's play? Please, indulge my curiousity as to why you're playing nice to someone who seems to be 'town-leading', yet has posted very little in the way of actual cases.

[Bogre]

Good point.... this kills 2 townies. Townies we can't afford to lose.... if there are as many townies as mafia, we lose..... Bogre be carefull about your your shot.

It is already readily apparent that this shot is important. As it has from the beginning of the game.

Lol, I've also written and then deleted a ton of arguments and cases I've wanted to write so far, because I don't want to coach any of the scum with my analysis. Interesting little quirk of playing this game.

Hopefully none of you will have to feel the same way, muah.

[Bogre]

Lol, I've also written and then deleted a ton of arguments and cases I've wanted to write so far, because I don't want to coach any of the scum with my analysis.

That's stupid. A town that hides information from itself is a town that loses.

Valid point. I don't plan on 'hiding' them, however, just holding them back until everyone checks back into the game, or discussion drivels up. I was more looking towards not masking peoples arguments for the moment with my own white noise, as it were, and giving people an excuse not to post content themselves.

Yes, lurkers, that means you all.

[Bogre]

Bogre
for obvious reasons

HowardRoarak
I can't point to a specific post that seems scummy, but overall he doesn't seem to be doing anything useful. His posts are fairly sporadic and they don't seem to say much. Just a gut feeling I suppose.

1: I want comments on the 'obvious reasons', Almaster.

2: This one's for everyone: Do you feel that Almaster's query is valid, given the comments HR has given, esp. his indications of Xyl's strong play, and his subtle accusation that Xyl looks bad in hindsight?

[Bogre]

Oh, goodie, announcements, I can't wait!

*rubs his hands in eagerness*

DoS: What about Almaster's comments strike you as scummy?

[Bogre]

Oh, goodie, announcements, I can't wait!

*rubs his hands in eagerness*

DoS: What about Almaster's comments strike you as scummy?

You should be telling people what to do and holding stuff back, not HR.

I do believe this is what I'm doing.

[Bogre]

@Bogre: I'd like to hear from Slicey first, but if you want it now just say so.

Nope. My 'eager' excitement was really wanting to know what you had to say.

Secondly, waiting on me to 'lead' the town is taking a pretty relaxed stance. Only by taking active efforts and doing good things will I know to differentiate you from the scum.

So here's some questions to get you guys going.

1.) Why do you feel I was tunneling on Rite/Huck? Was this deserved?

2)If you had one failing as a scumhunter in this game, what would it be?

3)Who has been the most effective/least effecting in scumhunting?

4) Who is the most/least protown? Why are you protown? What have you done anti-town?

[Bogre]

bump to get this back on top after meme's last posts.

[Bogre]

Question for ya'll:
Do you think Ortolan is gambitting?

[Bogre]

Rereading still, have some ideas, will post questions if they come up.

[Bogre]

Okay. I apologize for not getting around to this game much- I just kept pushing back finishing the re-read, and procrastinating.

Anyways, even if I miss today, I think a nice tactic would be for the gunbearer to list their reads before they shoot. As I was rereading I thought it would have been really nice if Vala had stated who -else- she thought might have been scum. I'm not sure giving town reads would be beneficial, though.

So, here are my scum reads, and everyone has until deadline to give last thoughts:

Sarag- Slight

He was really soft towards me day 1 (from which he was accused of coaching), but he brings up good comments about HR this day. I'm not sure anything else from him is good. I don't know whether to chalk up his absence day 2 as holidays or not.

Nachomamma- Heavy

More on the basis of Drake and Rewq, but interestingly enough has been primarily knocking at Xyl. (Like Howard) Rewq was very scummy, didn't contribute too much, and wasn't reasoning well.

HowardRoark-Heavy

Posted a lot of parroting, some pointed comments after Vala's shots that didn't make sense. Secondly, he has contradicted himself a couple of times, and appeared pretty scummy, especially with his heavy attacks at those on my wagon.

Note Nachomamma and HR haven't said anything about each other.

Noncontributors

DOS, Almaster, Ortolan

They haven't really said anything.

[Bogre]

As I was rereading I thought it would have been really nice if Vala had stated who -else- she thought might have been scum. I'm not sure giving town reads would be beneficial, though.

Eh, there's no harm in giving town reads. Scum don't have any nightkills this game, after all.

There is if town get complacent or scum get encouraged that I think they're doing well.

[Bogre]

Sarag is a much much much better kill. Look at how perfectly 587 sets you up to misvig Nacho, then for Nacho to successfully vig Sarag, then for us to assume the two of her buddies she named afterwards are town. Wowzor.

Pretty sure he was talking about Howardroark.

[Bogre]

*pulls the gun out of his mouth*

I apologize to you guys. I was traveling on deadline day, expected to be at a computer in time to shoot, however, there was bad weather and delays and a turn around, so I wasn't able too. Good luck, and sorry again.

*replaces the gun and ghosts off*

[Bogre]

*shakes fist at sky* Grrr travel delays!


Good game, guys.