Mini 886 - Popcorn Mafia - Game over!

[Zakeri]

I don't have much to add except for the fact that I don't really buy into the whole "I know it was scummy, but I did it on purpose, so it's not a tell" Scene.

Not that the answer to the question really has anything to do with why I think he's scum. Pressing a falsified scumslip is why I think he's scum. Though the way he's responded to Sarags pressing makes me uncomfortable with not knowing his alignment.

Cut: Umm, I guess I'll go pick up my prod then >.>;

[Bogre]

I don't have much to add except for the fact that I don't really buy into the whole "I know it was scummy, but I did it on purpose, so it's not a tell" Scene.

I don't think my answer was scummy. And I am hardly backtracking- the luxury of this game is that I have the freedom to act pretty dynamically to see how people bend or prickle in response. I mean, no one can cause my death except myself, so its really moot on what anyone else thinks of -me-. Naturally I don't want to cause a mishot, but what I am hoping is that, as I said, the gunbearer will find a better target through my scumhunting.

[rite]

FoS

on Bogre still stands.

I don't believe you answered in a way "that you knew would garner reactions." In fact, you answered in a way that seemed like someone who just wanted to slip under the radar, and then when we called you on it, you got flustered and changed the subject.

I'd say I'm about 60:40 as to whether you're scum or just poorly playing town. Does anybody have experience playing with Bogre? Is this usual for him?

As for Xyl, I agree that he's rabid, but I get the sense that this is just how he plays? Again, has anyone played with him before, is this usual?

[Bogre]

Oh hello, scum.

[Xylthixlm]

I mean, no one can cause my death except myself, so its really moot on what anyone else thinks of -me-.

^ Kill this guy.

[Xylthixlm]

If we're lucky Bogre is scum trying to seem like a townie trying to get the gun. If we're unlucky Bogre is a townie who is playing against the town. Either way I want him dead as soon as possible.

[rite]

I mean, no one can cause my death except myself, so its really moot on what anyone else thinks of -me-.

Posted before I saw Bogre's latest post. No, dude, it's not moot at all. This is the point I was trying to make earlier. You're acting as if your goal is to survive through the game. It's not. If you're a townie, your goal is for town to win. If you're scum, your goal is for scum to win. There is no "luxury of this game" in terms of strategy. Things still work the same from a game theory angle. You don't want to make yourself a target because it will be bad for the town. (if you're a townie. if you're scum, you still don't want to make yourself a target.)

[Xylthixlm]

Exactly.

What anyone thinks of Bogre might not kill Bogre, but it will certainly kill Vala Mal Doran, a confirmed townie. By recklessly disregarding Vala Mal Doran's life, Bogre is playing squarely against the town's best interests.

[rite]

If we're lucky Bogre is scum trying to seem like a townie trying to get the gun. If we're unlucky Bogre is a townie who is playing against the town. Either way I want him dead as soon as possible.

But if the latter is true, he'll just have the gun. Is that something we want?

[Xylthixlm]

Shooting him puts him next on the list to die. That's good enough for me.

I'm also very hopeful that he's scum trying to act in a way he thinks we'll think scum wouldn't act.

[Bogre]

Exactly.

What anyone thinks of Bogre might not kill Bogre, but it will certainly kill Vala Mal Doran, a confirmed townie. By recklessly disregarding Vala Mal Doran's life, Bogre is playing squarely against the town's best interests.

Have you been listening? To anything?

I am not playing with a disregard for her life. In fact, I have so kindly warned her how she may preserve it.

[Xylthixlm]

Keep digging, scum.

[Slicey]

Bogre is scum because:

-Trying to find even the tiniest 'slips' and immediately calling them scum for it. Such as rite calling him a townie, WHICH IS NOT A SCUM SLIP
-Continually calling rite scum because of the not-really-slip, such as Post 59, 78, and this statement in 62:

Why are you defending the scum, Yos?

-Self-preservation, which obviously equals scum. Way too worried about his own ass.
-Obvious backtracking which is so blatantly obvious

Sarag is a possible scumbuddy because:
- coaching in 67. Trying to help Bogre answer the question and redeem himself.
- Attacking Bogre's backtracking, and then saying it's ok in Post 71.

So yeah, we can fire away on Bogre, but let's hear from some other people first.

[DraketheFake]

Impressions by page:

Page 1

- I'm not sure I agree with Xyl's initial reaction to Bogre's post. That it put him on guard against Bogre should probably be taken into account RE: the later stuff.
- Sarag's first post is bad, much worse than Bogre's first. "Haha yeah, I was gonna act like scum" is so much posturing, and reeks additionally of deference to a noted strong player. The additional focus on votes versus FoSes seems like trying to ingratiate.
- Not sure what to make of Yos stating the obvious. DragonsOfSummer agreeing looks like the trend here.
- Agreed with Zakeri about Sarag's "Gunbearers should keep their thoughts to themselves."
- Xyl giving so much advice to Val looks bad to me.

@DraketheFake: What is your favourite role to play, and why?

Vanilla townie or Cop. The shine is off the scum apple after getting it several times in a row, and I don't like playing power roles that require a lot of outguessing (i.e. doctor, roleblocker, and especially vig). I like the pressure to be off, for the most part, but I do enjoy having something to do at night from time to time.

Page 2

- rite's first post isn't particularly inspiring. Warning of future lurking is all well and good, I suppose, but confirming the game mechanics seems to be the same thing Xyl jumped down Bogre's throat for.
- Not a fan of Bogre's next post. To be fair, I'm not a fan of this game degenerating into people answering inane questions from the gunbearer, and "Why shouldn't I shoot you?" is a pretty damn difficult question to answer without looking like you're flailing. "Because you'll die" is a decent enough response. Can you imagine an answer to this question that somebody wouldn't have jumped on?
- Sarag's next post: "So I expect you'll avoid making a terrible choice." "Terrible" is a really strange word choice here. Chances are good that the current gunbearer will end up dead (7/11), and being "sure" that the current gunbearer will avoid dying is pure silliness. This might just be a further commentary on how answering these questions set forth: I'm sure somebody would have jumped on the correct answer, which is, "You shouldn't be feeling pressure as the first gunbearer, chances are you'll kill a townie and nobody will blame you if the town goes on to lose."

Page 3

- Bogre only starts looking bad to me here, with his insistence on "scumslips." Yosarian's take matches mine: Bogre appears to be latching onto something that most uninvolved parties aren't going to agree with, but I'm not sure how it makes him scum. Since I'm not convinced of that - and it seems likely that Bogre would use his shot to take out rite without thinking twice - I'm not sure how comfortable I would be with a shot at Bogre here.
- Agreed with Bogre's response about the answer he gave. I find it strange that Sarag seemed to come to his defense, then backed off immediately.
- But then of course there's "However, you should understand that I was presenting the position that I knew would garner reactions. It's generated a lot of discussion, which was part of why I did it. Many other answers to that question would have been been impossible to prove/be easily taken as a simple answer and passed over." Just plain awful.

Page 4

- Yeah I don't know. I could go either way on Bogre. Reneging on what I just said, once a scum is in the deer lights it might be a good strategy in this game to imply that the next choice is going to come right away to scare off concerned townies.
- Still don't think that gunbearer questions is the way to go, here. But I guess it had to happen somehow. Jockeying with the set-up is to be expected, so I guess my early skittishness about people advising Val heavily wasn't warranted.

Sorry I basically had to make a replace-in post in this game.

[Zakeri]

If we're lucky Bogre is scum trying to seem like a townie trying to get the gun. If we're unlucky Bogre is a townie who is playing against the town. Either way I want him dead as soon as possible.

Xyl's policy lynching takes a new low as he admits in thread that he would will the death of two confirmed townies just to teach one of them not to say something stupid.

Have you been listening? To anything?

I am not playing with a disregard for her life. In fact, I have so kindly warned her how she may preserve it.

Fortunately for us, Bogre is scum.

The only acceptable defense you can even use is "rite is scum." The only reason no one is accepting that either is because your evidence is the way he said something could be interpreted differently. It's obvious you're just trying to shift attention away from yourself with that move move.

[Xylthixlm]

Xyl's policy lynching takes a new low as he admits in thread that he would will the death of two confirmed townies just to teach one of them not to say something stupid.

Thanks. I've been off lately, I even let zwet survive to the end of Touhou.

Although really, by my accounting it's only one townie, and that's only if Bogre isn't scum. Which he is.

[ortolan]

do your research please, Bogre always acts like this; it's clearly naught but a null-tell from him.

Plus I already pegged all the scum, so I know Bogre can't be scum.

rite has the consistent defensive and self-explanatory tone which I associate with newb-scum. Of course, he's clearly in no way a newb but it's been ages since he's played properly. I think he's inexperienced with the game recently and thus this tell becomes valid again. Also post 26 gives me a vibe of going out of his way to be unbiased in his self-assessment.

I can tell you that in the past I've been prodded for lurking, pretty much equally when I'm scum or when I'm town. Basically, while I may be one of the town members most likely to lurk, I don't think that would tell you anything about my role, unfortunately.

Town players don't want to give information like this so that they can be evaluated "fairly", they want to convince others that they're town. It looks like he is going out of his way to appear "honest" rather than acting how a townie actually would- trying to convince people that they're town.

DoS' 41 is one of the scummiest posts I've ever seen. He goes down this completely, 100% irrelevant tangent of "what the point of shooting yourself would be". The answer is none. It's not even an issue worth considering for 2 seconds. The second paragraph is also really really scummy.

A quick reactionary question?

Do we know for sure that we are unable to shoot ourselves anyway? It isn't stated that we can't, and that would be one hell of a blow to the town IMO (A day with no lynch except worse because of how this game works).

I see no purpose for this paragraph, except for the bolded part. What the bolded part serves to do is imply that he is town in a self-conscious manner: "Do

we

know for sure that

we

are unable to shoot ourselves anyway?" He is going out of his way to speculate as to what he'd do when he were in a certain position i.e. in possession of the gun. Of course, you need to be town to ever be in possession of the gun because if you're scum you don't get the gun when you get shot, you just die. So all this post/paragraph is is a long and convoluted and self-conscious way of implying that he is town.

He

also

acted extremely scummily in response to my announced but unjustified suspicions of him

Why do you find me scummy? Because if I was the gun bearer I wouldn't jokingly shoot myself? Ortolan you make no sense.

He instantly leaps to assumptions about what my reasons for suspecting him are (why would any townie do that?). How does he know that was my reason for suspecting him anyway? Guilty conscience about that self-conscious original post methinks.

Looking over the game I am less sure about Zakeri and Drake but will do those later.

[Xylthixlm]

Scumteam: Bogre, Sajin, ortolan, ???

[Xylthixlm]

EBWOP:

Scumteam: Bogre, Sarag, ortolan, ???

[ortolan]

you're parodying your aggressive town play here Xyl, I expect more from you

[ortolan]

wait how is Bogre scummy ITT, and how are we scummy by proxy for defending him; when he clearly acts like this every game. Do you disagree?

[Xylthixlm]

wait how is Bogre scummy ITT, and how are we scummy by proxy for defending him; when he clearly acts like this every game. Do you disagree?

I haven't played with Bogre much but I think I'd remember if I saw someone playing this blatantly antitown.

[ortolan]

If someone acts anti-town as scum why wouldn't they act anti-town as town?

[Xylthixlm]

If I get the gun there is going to be a

massacre

.

[Bogre]

wait how is Bogre scummy ITT, and how are we scummy by proxy for defending him; when he clearly acts like this every game. Do you disagree?

I mean I don't have the luxury of being this boat-rocking usually, hah.

Xyl, explain exactly why my play is anti-town.

Has it:
a) Created a large distraction?
b) Obscured the real point of the game?
c) Done anything but give Vala more information in shooting scum?

The answer is no.

Possible scumteam of rite and Xyl?

I think yes