How do you know this, pray tell?Xylthixlm wrote:Public service announcement:
.Do not deliberately act scummy so that you will get the gun.
I know someone is considering it. Don't.
That is all.
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Not really I do recall playing "murder in the dark" when I was very very young, I can't even remember how that worked though and it would be completely irrelevant to my approach to mafia nowadays.VMD (24) wrote:@ortolan: Have you ever played any real-life mafia, and if so, do you prefer it to forum mafia? Why or why not?
I also already find rite, Zakeri, and even Drake scummyCurrently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529
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do your research please, Bogre always acts like this; it's clearly naught but a null-tell from him.
Plus I already pegged all the scum, so I know Bogre can't be scum.
rite has the consistent defensive and self-explanatory tone which I associate with newb-scum. Of course, he's clearly in no way a newb but it's been ages since he's played properly. I think he's inexperienced with the game recently and thus this tell becomes valid again. Also post 26 gives me a vibe of going out of his way to be unbiased in his self-assessment.
Town players don't want to give information like this so that they can be evaluated "fairly", they want to convince others that they're town. It looks like he is going out of his way to appear "honest" rather than acting how a townie actually would- trying to convince people that they're town.rite wrote:I can tell you that in the past I've been prodded for lurking, pretty much equally when I'm scum or when I'm town. Basically, while I may be one of the town members most likely to lurk, I don't think that would tell you anything about my role, unfortunately.
DoS' 41 is one of the scummiest posts I've ever seen. He goes down this completely, 100% irrelevant tangent of "what the point of shooting yourself would be". The answer is none. It's not even an issue worth considering for 2 seconds. The second paragraph is also really really scummy.
I see no purpose for this paragraph, except for the bolded part. What the bolded part serves to do is imply that he is town in a self-conscious manner: "DoDoS (41) wrote:A quick reactionary question?Do we know for sure that we are unable to shoot ourselves anyway? It isn't stated that we can't, and that would be one hell of a blow to the town IMO (A day with no lynch except worse because of how this game works).weknow for sure thatweare unable to shoot ourselves anyway?" He is going out of his way to speculate as to what he'd do when he were in a certain position i.e. in possession of the gun. Of course, you need to be town to ever be in possession of the gun because if you're scum you don't get the gun when you get shot, you just die. So all this post/paragraph is is a long and convoluted and self-conscious way of implying that he is town.
Healsoacted extremely scummily in response to my announced but unjustified suspicions of him
He instantly leaps to assumptions about what my reasons for suspecting him are (why would any townie do that?). How does he know that was my reason for suspecting him anyway? Guilty conscience about that self-conscious original post methinks.DoS (45) wrote:Why do you find me scummy? Because if I was the gun bearer I wouldn't jokingly shoot myself? Ortolan you make no sense.
Looking over the game I am less sure about Zakeri and Drake but will do those later.Currently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529
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look at his post history, I can't reference ongoing gamesYosarian2 wrote:
Ok, how so?ortolan wrote:do your research please, Bogre always acts like this;
Irrelevant because the information rite gave out didn't serve to make him look scummy anyways.DoS (105) wrote:
The offending question was your own one which you added:DragonsofSummer wrote:Here is the problem Ort.I was asked to answer that question.Try reading the thread before you jump to conclusions. Vala asked me whether I would, so I answered her question.
DoS (41) wrote:A quick reactionary question? Do we know for sure that we are unable to shoot ourselves anyway? It isn't stated that we can't, and that would be one hell of a blow to the town IMO (A day with no lynch except worse because of how this game works).
Yer I'll bet.DoS (105) wrote:As for your second point, saying me putting we in my statement is scummy, thats grasping at straws and ludicrous.
No, I associate them with being defensive and self-explanatory, which you were, and I didn't say "giving out information" is a scum-tell, I said you looked like you looked like you were trying really hard to give the impression of giving out "neutral"-sounding information, and in fact were overacting the extent to which a townie would give out this sort of information.rite (120) wrote:Also, you first say you associate newb scum with being "defensive," then say you associate them with giving out information so they can be "evaulated 'fairly'". I don't understand; these two appear to be at odds.
yeahhhhhhhhhhhh...no. What I attacked him for wasn't his answer to a question, it was one who tacked on, so it's all moot.rite (120) wrote:Your attacking of DoS for answering a question represents either a fundamental misreading of the game, or an eagerness to attack SOMEONE that is often displayed by scum.
Xyl (122) wrote:This townie wants to be evaluated "fairly" and is perfectly happy to offer information that makes himself look scummy if it happens to be true.
I don't like the attempt to cut through my points with arbitrary philosophical method by rite and DoS. rite in particular strikes me as more scummy whereas I can still see DoS going either way. I will re-read Sarag if you like, Slicey.Currently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529
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Sarag's early posts look pro-town (I almost feel the "I considered acting scummy to get the gun" comment is actually more likely to come from town). More recently I dunno, she's obviously intelligent and I have no familiarity with her playstyle so I'm not sure how to interpet some of the stuff she's said. I do feel that the proposed Sarag-Bogre scumpair possibility is deeply retarded; if anything I would think the way she inititally FoSed Bogre was more likely to come from scum reluctant to attack a townie too hard than from scum-scum. As I don't think she's scum with Bogre 114 gets her more pro-town points.
I'm also surprised at Xyl positing the Bogre-Sarag scumpair himself, I think he might be in scum-mode tbh. IIRC I had a strong contingent-town tell on Drake also, which makes me even more skeptical of his list.Currently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529
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Twisting my words. That's a scumtell.DoS (128) wrote:Which clearly involves my statement about shooting one's self. Then you say that wasn't part of your attack at all?
Recap:
I attack you with:
rah rah rahortolan wrote:I see no purpose for this paragraph, except for the bolded part. What the bolded part serves to do is imply that he is town in a self-conscious manner: "Do we know for sure that we are unable to shoot ourselves anyway?" He is going out of his way to speculate as to what he'd do when he were in a certain position i.e. in possession of the gun. Of course, you need to be town to ever be in possession of the gun because if you're scum you don't get the gun when you get shot, you just die. So all this post/paragraph is is a long and convoluted and self-conscious way of implying that he is town
- you respond that you only posted the offending (scummy) content because you had to give a reply
- I reply that no, the scummy content was contained within your self-proclaimed "reactionary question", thereby refuting your defence based on the fact you were obliged to say that in answer to a question.
No backtracking, no contradictions, no nothing (on my part). You is scummy.Currently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529
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You are pretending the "GOTCHA" part of the way you are expressing things has any meaning. What I have put forward is no different to putting forward a normal scumtell. Saying it is a "GOTCHA" argument, whatever that means, doesn't suddenly make it invalid, and me scummy for putting it forward. Sorry about that.Zakeri (140) wrote:Both of these look like vicious implants of thoughts into someone else's mouth. They're basically just gotcha games in the very sense of the word - "GOTCHA! You were trying to make yourself look like a townie by feigning concern for your play in a position only a townie could be in!" or "GOTCHA! You were trying to figure out why I suspected you, and you got it right, which must mean you knew you were doing something scummy even though I didn't call you out on it, A HA!"
Despite desperate proclamations to the opposite, Xyl's opinion is fallible. I'd say only about half of his scumlist is right by now, and I'm think it's the Bogre/Ort half right now because of this.Currently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529
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oh, I get it, you mean the "vicious implants of thoughts into someone else's mouth." You mean speculating about the psychology behind what he is saying? Yer, that's a good way of catching scum. You should try it sometime. Oh wait, you are, you are analysing me in the same way. Which means you are equally guilty of using "GOTCHA" arguments. That makes you scummy by your own logic. Hint: speculating about people's motives isnt scummy, in and of itself.Currently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529
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I just iso read Xyl again, he's playing pretty much exactly like he did in LAL, ergo he's very likely to be town. That doesn't mean his scumlist doesn't suck though.Currently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529
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You should see how pissed off ZazieR got when I repeatedly got him mixed up with youZakeri (182) wrote:I know the avatar confuses people, and I don't mind people mistaking me for a girl, but this is one step too far.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and say that you're missing the whole point. What he said didn't need to be said. He was considering (pretending to consider IMO) whether one could shoot oneself if one were the gunbearer. Why the hell would one consider that? That's like saying haha guys do you reckon it might be fun to shoot oneself if one were a pro-town vig? haha yer didn't think so. It was just a pointless diversion, and I can't see any reason for bringing it up, unless perhaps one wanted to imply "well IZakeri (182) wrote:What makes you think it was "Out of his way" to say something like this?
Let me put it this way: How would you imagine he would have said what he said if he were town as oppose to if he were scum? Do you believe that there is a significant enough chance that he would have said "The gunbearer" instead of "We" if he were town? Enough to call him out as scum for it?couldshoot myself, because Icouldbecome a gunbearer, because Iamtown. Do you understand where my attack is coming from now? There was no benefit to what he was saying information-wise, the only possible motivation I can attribute to saying that is the implication that he is town. Ergo it's scummy.Currently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529
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The correct answer to the original question was "uh, no, that's stupid". He went far too far with his reply.DoS (41) wrote:A quick reactionary question? Do we know for sure that we are unable to shoot ourselves anyway? It isn't stated that we can't, and that would be one hell of a blow to the town IMO (A day with no lynch except worse because of how this game works).
Vala: what did you hope to achieve by asking the question, and do you think DoS' response was scummy?Currently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529
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I want to know what the intention of your question was, and whether she thinks the response was scummy. I'm not interrogating her, I knows she's town, I just want to see in detail what she thinks of the response and how it matches to responses she might have expected.Currently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529
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How do you know that's what she's chosen to do? I know that was her approach from the beginning, I don't think it's necessarily optimal play to be doing it now. If she announces who she thinks she's going to kill; and then we all give feedback on it, that seems like it will just generate even more information, which is a good thing.Yos (194) wrote:I would think would be more willing to let the gunbearer keep their cards close to their chest if that's what they choose to do.
I also just want to know what her reasoning was out of my own curiosity and for my own purposes, I don't have in mind whether people will interpret it as trying to "manipulate" the gun-bearer.
I also want to know how the opinions of a confirmed town player compare to my own, because that is a good way of calibrating whether the reactions I might get from other players are town or scummy.- ortolan
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good for you, I don't care. I'm tryina catch scum, not appeal to how people (illogically) think a townie should act, which is what I'd do if I was actually scum.Currently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529
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Xyl: I dunno about Drake. I found his first post scummy, I think that was for tone somehow, but it wasn't a very good read by me. While I heavily dislike PBPAs because I find them hard to navigate and not very useful; his post 88 looks like it features a lot of earnest reasoning. The main thing is he displays some attitude, but I'm sure he'd equally display that attitude as scum if he'd display it as town.
I'm also not sure what he'd have to gain as scum particularly by arguing what he is with Xyl. It's possible he's doing it to feign activity though.
Drake: who would you say are your top four scum suspects in the game?
In looking at Bogre in the process I actually think there is a good chance he's scum. His macho ramblings and hyper-aggressiveness I think may be going too far for him, compared to how he usually plays. And it looks like he might just be OMGUSing everyone deliberately to suggest he is townie playing badly.
I like to leave people hanging sometimes. It's entertaining. Also it can elicit some good reactions.HowardRoark (205) wrote:Why? (Why do I have to ask that?)
Now that I've reconsidered, shooting him might be a good idea.HowardRoark (205) wrote:So how do you propose that we handle him?
~~~
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do you think posting this might discourage these players from attacking you?Xylthixlm wrote:
Still happy about this list. Sarag has the potential to remove himself if he starts actually playing. The other three had better hope that someone else does something really really scummy, because otherwise they'll be my top suspects for a while...Xylthixlm wrote:Scum: Bogre, Sarag, ortolan, DraketheFake- ortolan
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If Sarag is scum, she is scum with rite fo sho, and Drake is town
It can be useful. One example is if a confirmed town player finds you scummy. You know that if people claim to find you scummy for the same reasons their sentiments may be more likely to be genuine.Sarag wrote:I don't really get this... Ortolan, would you clarify, please?
either way I would like a shot on rite numero unoCurrently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529
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QFSBogre’s my second, but I think he's a bad target if we're wrong. He might do a decent job at finding scum as the shooter, but he'd need to take his sights off of me and Xyl before I'd feel really comfortable risking that. It's not so much that I don't think he's really scummy, it's that being wrong about Bogre would be like killing two townies.Currently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529
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And why are you so sure he's town Xyl? I wouldn't be too happy getting shot by Bogre if I was scum either. Just because it's an obv-scum-tell doesn't mean it's not a scum-tell.Currently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529
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I disagree that any of these are good attacks whatsoever. But then I would, wouldn't I.Hacker wrote:I don’t really care for any part of his post 91. He makes interesting observations about Rite and Bogre, but I’m curious where he got his insight. I noticed later that he seems to make a meta case on someone based on a single game he played with them. Later in post 125 he really just dismisses all arguments against him without explaining why they’re invalid. It’s like he’s just pulling the jedi mind trick - "I'm not the scum you're looking for".Currently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529
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more detail about why those actions described are scummy and less-Zakeri style allusions which don't actually mean anything e.g. "I'm not the scum you're looking for". Also metaing based on one game isn't scummy in and of itself. Making interesting observations about someone but you not knowing where my insight comes from is also not scummy. So unless you go into more detail I conclude u got nothin'Currently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529
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drake isn't scum, I'm not scum, Hacker's last post makes me suspect he's worried about being shot by town-Bogre (not that Bogre's other posts haven't themselves been scummy).
Dunno about Sarag.Currently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529
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oh wait...I was confused...HackerHuck replaced rite?
wow that's really, really, really really, really, really obv-scum right there. Please kill him. Seriously. He's scum.Currently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529
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Can you tell me why you picked these players, and what the links between them are?HowardRoark wrote:Top 3? Zakeri, Bogre, Slicey/DraketheFake.
scumteam atm looks like: DoS, Hacker, Sarag, ZakeriCurrently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529
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I thought he was null, then I thought he was scum, now I'm thinking he's town because of your concern about being shot by him.Hacker (252) wrote:Are you now thinking that Bogre is scum? Weren't you of the opinion that Bogre is town?
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Post 88 just reeks of him being town to me. Plus everyone's bandwagoning him based on real crap/no reasoning.
He doesn't fit in with who I think are the scumsss either.
Everyone bar Sarag, DoS, Zakeri 'n' Hacker have acted substantively town, and they have acted substantively scummy. Start killin' these players and we can rap the game up, Vala.Sarag (112) wrote:The case that DraketheFake has mounted against me feels very much like clutching at straws, and like opportunistic bandwagoning (metaphorically of course, since there are no votes - but he followed a few others' accusations that felt more genuine to me). At the risk of being accused of OMGUS, smallFoS: DraketheFake. If anyone actually cares, I will defend but I'd rather not waste everyone's time.- ortolan
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Remember the whole "gotcha" discussion where I said that "gotcha" attacks are the same things as psychological scum-tells, and therefore not scummy at all? I do. Were there any other points you raised against me? I don't believe so.Zakeri (267) wrote:I call slander until you actually pull up these "allusions" and describe how they don't mean anything. I believe I've tried my best to explain why I think your route of attack on DoS is poor and likely scum based.Currently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529
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Not at all. I've seen people try to draw meta from 10 different games and because they're n00b @ mafia the meta they have derived is crap and useless anyway. Quality, not quantity. If you work out behaviour that people genuinely have difficulty changing, then it's going to be effective regardless of where it's drawn from (bear in mind I don't even remember who I apparently meta'ed at this point). Noobs are still gonna read 10 different games and say "omg, Zakeri, in 9/10 of your town games your average post length is 3 lines long, in your scum game your average post length was 5 lines long. You have one 6-line post in this gameZakeri (267) wrote:It's still bad play, dipping into a test sample of one pool for something as fickle as meta.Vote: Zakeri"
Slicey: I don't think Xyl is scum. Merely wrong.Currently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529
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ortolan Mafia Scum
- ortolan
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4158
- Joined: October 27, 2008
you must be a mindreader Xyl, I was literally gonna make a comment like that yesterday...but with my scumlist.
Please by all means shoot me though, the majority of the town seem to favour it and I would relish the opportunity to get 4 perfect vig shots.Currently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529
Feel free to PM me to be ready in case I need a replacement.- ortolan
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ortolan Mafia Scum
- ortolan
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4158
- Joined: October 27, 2008
- ortolan
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ortolan Mafia Scum
- ortolan
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4158
- Joined: October 27, 2008
Uh no cause I said he was a bad choice before he was shot alsoHowardRoark wrote:I dislike both the ortolan and Slicey posts after the trigger was pulled.Currently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529
Feel free to PM me to be ready in case I need a replacement.- ortolan
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ortolan Mafia Scum
- ortolan
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4158
- Joined: October 27, 2008
- ortolan
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ortolan Mafia Scum
- ortolan
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4158
- Joined: October 27, 2008
- ortolan
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ortolan Mafia Scum
- ortolan
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4158
- Joined: October 27, 2008
wow dos and hackerhuck and Almaster are all sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo obviously scum together. Sarag decided not to go down the same path as the rest of the scum, but I'm on to her too, much to her chagrin.Currently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529
Feel free to PM me to be ready in case I need a replacement.- ortolan
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ortolan Mafia Scum
- ortolan
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4158
- Joined: October 27, 2008
- ortolan
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ortolan Mafia Scum
- ortolan
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4158
- Joined: October 27, 2008
- ortolan
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ortolan Mafia Scum
- ortolan
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4158
- Joined: October 27, 2008
- ortolan
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ortolan Mafia Scum
- ortolan
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4158
- Joined: October 27, 2008
I trust my own chance of hitting scum better than anyone else's. It is still playing to win.Yos wrote:skirting the edge of "play to win" stuff. Don't, please.Currently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529
Feel free to PM me to be ready in case I need a replacement.- ortolan
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ortolan Mafia Scum
- ortolan
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4158
- Joined: October 27, 2008
I am claiming my scumlist is more accurate than anyone else's, and I trust it way better.rewq455 wrote:Are you claiming to be the best town player here? I highly doubt that you are.Currently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529
Feel free to PM me to be ready in case I need a replacement.- ortolan
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ortolan Mafia Scum
- ortolan
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4158
- Joined: October 27, 2008
- ortolan
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ortolan Mafia Scum
- ortolan
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4158
- Joined: October 27, 2008
- ortolan
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ortolan Mafia Scum
- ortolan
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4158
- Joined: October 27, 2008
I will try a different tack. I trust my own methodology better than those of other people. I think they are going with the horrible "consensus" wagons when they should be going with the people acting like scum would act. I agree with you that Sarag is scum, btw.Currently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529
Feel free to PM me to be ready in case I need a replacement.- ortolan
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ortolan Mafia Scum
- ortolan
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4158
- Joined: October 27, 2008
- ortolan
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ortolan Mafia Scum
- ortolan
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4158
- Joined: October 27, 2008
- ortolan
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ortolan Mafia Scum
- ortolan
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4158
- Joined: October 27, 2008
- ortolan
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ortolan Mafia Scum
- ortolan
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4158
- Joined: October 27, 2008
- ortolan
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ortolan Mafia Scum
- ortolan
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4158
- Joined: October 27, 2008
It doesn't lead to finding scum, I already found the scum. As I said, unless Bogre is gonna shoot one off my list today, please shoot me, so I can actually vig all the scum tomorrow instead of watching more horrible mislynchesCurrently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529
Feel free to PM me to be ready in case I need a replacement. - ortolan
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