Mini 886 - Popcorn Mafia - Game over!

[HackerHuck]

This one isn't too long, so I should have a post within the next twelve hours.

I guess there's no need to unvote either

[HackerHuck]

I think this will be my first time playing with Yos. I’m pretty sure that I've been scum with DoS before and I played once before with Xyl. I’ve probably played with Bogre the most, but the thoughts that come to mind are: scum, lurker. All the others are new to me, but it's nice to see a few familiar faces.

One main point I need to make is that this is not a game where voting out an anti-town player is almost as good as voting out scum. If you “vote” out a town player who doesn’t act in our best interest, you’ve just handing him the gun.
Another point about the ruleset – we never should reach deadline. If you’ve got the gun and you can’t decide who to shoot at deadline, pick the first name on the list that hasn’t been gunbearer yet. If you’re wrong, it’s no different than if we hit deadline, but at least you have a random chance of hitting scum. I’d also like to point out that it’s in

everyone’s

best interest to avoid being targeted.

I've read through the thread, but I've just got a few comments right now. Given the activity requirements of this game, I think it's better to avoid walls of text on replacing.

If it were my job to fire the gun right now, it would be pointed squarely at Ortolan.

I don’t really care for any part of his post 91. He makes interesting observations about Rite and Bogre, but I’m curious where he got his insight. I noticed later that he seems to make a meta case on someone based on a single game he played with them. Later in post 125 he really just dismisses all arguments against him without explaining why they’re invalid. It’s like he’s just pulling the jedi mind trick - "I'm not the scum you're looking for".

Bogre’s my second, but I think he's a bad target if we're wrong. He might do a decent job at finding scum as the shooter, but he'd need to take his sights off of me and Xyl before I'd feel really comfortable risking that. It's not so much that I don't think he's really scummy, it's that being wrong about Bogre would be like killing two townies.

I’m not seeing the general scumvibe on DraketheSnake that everyone else is. It seems more to me that he doesn’t have a proper understanding of the mechanics. Are you all really arguing that he’s scum trying to convince townies that they should try to get the gun pointed on themselves? Yes, I understand that’s what the scum are thinking, but verbalising is a sign of scum who can’t maintain an inner dialogue.

My last comment is directed at Vala. I think you're in an ideal situation as gunbearer to hunt for scum. While it's probably smart to keep your true intentions somewhat private, you're in a good position to do some indirect scumhunting. Since you're confirmed, there's no danger in you trying some unique tactics to gauge the reactions of others. I would urge you to fight the tendency to sit back and watch, which seems to happen with the kingmaker type roles.

[HackerHuck]

drake isn't scum, I'm not scum, Hacker's last post makes me suspect he's worried about being shot by town-Bogre (not that Bogre's other posts haven't themselves been scummy).

Dunno about Sarag.

I'm obviously not worried about being shot by scum-Bogre. Nobody wants to get shot at here, so I don't know how that would be an indicator of alignment.

Are you now thinking that Bogre is scum? Weren't you of the opinion that Bogre is town?

[HackerHuck]

...Hacker's last post makes me suspect he's worried about being shot by town-Bogre (not that Bogre's other posts haven't themselves been scummy).

Are you now thinking that Bogre is scum? Weren't you of the opinion that Bogre is town?

Bogre - Please explain to me how I'm misrepresenting him. He made a statement that implies you are acting scummy. I'm asking whether he thinks that means you're scummy.

I haven't seen anything posted since I replaced in that has changed my mind about Ortolan or Bogre. I'll have to go back and look for a third suspect, because I'm not really feeling the suspicion on Drake and I don't recall why Sarag would be scummy.

I do want to clarify something on my comments regarding not wanting Bogre to get the gun. I agree with Yos that a truly bad gunbearer should be killed sooner rather than later, and that someone's aptitude for being a gunbearer really isn't a reason not to shoot someone. Overall I don't think that town Bogre would be a bad gunbearer, but I feel that he's too focused on me and Xyl. He's still in my top two, but it's enough of a reason for me to drop him below Ortolan.

[HackerHuck]

In this order:
Ortolan, Bogre, Sarag

After rereading it looks like I just took Bogre's initial scumpairing comment about Xyl to be truthful and assumed that he kept with it. It does look like those arguments were oddly one-sided with Xyl attacking Bogre and Bogre not really saying anything about Xyl.

Yes, I suppose it could look scummy that I don't want to risk Bogre being town and shooting me, but that's going to be Vala's decision, not mine. I'm just honestly answering the question about who I would shoot and why. I added Sarag to the list because of his early behaviour regarding Bogre. I think slicey nailed it, when he called it out as coaching and the way he responded to Bogre's backtracking. I couldn't help but notice that after it was said that Ortolan wouldn't be defending his entire scumteam, that he changed his tune on Sarag.

[HackerHuck]

Can someone please post the basic case against Drake? I have read over the last three pages, and all I see is a case against his inactivity. I was planning on reading the full thread today, but real life caught up with me.

Worry about who appears scummy to you before worrying about the case against Drake.

Agreed.

I would also recommend that you shoot someone you actually find scummy before targeting someone who hasn't posted a lot of content. Lurkers can get replaced, while scum should just be shot.

[HackerHuck]

If we hurry we can rap this game up in time to qualify for this years scummies

BTW, I see nothing in the rules preventing consecutive shots:

shoot: bogre
shoot: Sarag
shoot: ortolan

I do hope you're not serious.

While I do think that will rid of us 75% of the scum, I think we're still better served by getting at least some reaction to the individual deaths.

It would also be beneficial to us to get a little more feedback from Vala before she pulls the trigger. While I feel pretty good about the likely targets, I'd like to know what her other suspects are in the event we're wrong.

[HackerHuck]

1: I want comments on the 'obvious reasons', Almaster.

2: This one's for everyone: Do you feel that Almaster's query is valid, given the comments HR has given, esp. his indications of Xyl's strong play, and his subtle accusation that Xyl looks bad in hindsight?

I had to look for the query you reference and I agree that it's valid. This is a piece that I didn't like.

@Bogre: Based on the scum lists, Xylthixlm has been pretty much accepted as town.

I'm still leaning town on Xyl, but I don't like how he's stating that Xyl has been accepted as town. I don't think you can make the connection that agreeing with Xyl's scumlist is the same as finding him town.

I don't really find that Bogre's turnup as town has really shifted my opinion on Ortolan, but it does wipe out my main argument against Sarag.

[HackerHuck]

Perhaps stating that Xylthixlm

appears

to have been accepted as town would make it clearer

I still think that's not an appropriate statement. Just because someone isn't in most peoples' top 3 list doesn't mean they've been accepted as town.

I don't really get why you think we should be moved by your teasing of some "gold-nugget" reveal. Maybe if most people thought you were town, but even then I don't see how your yet-to-be-given opinion merits any thought.

Alamaster does seem a little edgy in his replies.

[HackerHuck]

Perhaps stating that Xylthixlm

appears

to have been accepted as town would make it clearer

I still think that's not an appropriate statement. Just because someone isn't in most peoples' top 3 list doesn't mean they've been accepted as town.

I question why you are questioning whether my townieness is questioned.

I tend to find it suspicious when people make blanket statements about what "the town" thinks, especially when those statements aren't supported.

@Ortolan - mindlessly repeating something over and over again might make you believe it to be true, but it doesn't actually make it true.

[HackerHuck]

Why is HowardRoark calling the shots instead of Bogre?

[HackerHuck]

@HackerHuck: How did you feel about Xylthixlm guiding Vala Mal Doran?

I don't recall anyone really trying to lead the town around yesterday. What in particular would you like me to comment on?

[HackerHuck]

@HackerHuck: I thought my question was very clear: "How did you feel about Xylthixlm guiding Vala Mal Doran?" Answer; don't avoid.

I thought I was pretty clear in my response. I'll try to rephrase it so that you understand.

I didn't really think that Xyl was specifically guiding Vala. Give me some examples of what

you're

talking about and I'll give you my feelings on them.

I'll answer Bogre's questions in the morning.

[HackerHuck]

So here's some questions to get you guys going.

1.) Why do you feel I was tunneling on Rite/Huck? Was this deserved?

2)If you had one failing as a scumhunter in this game, what would it be?

3)Who has been the most effective/least effecting in scumhunting?

4) Who is the most/least protown? Why are you protown? What have you done anti-town?

1) I'm probably not the best person to answer this. It certainly wasn't deserved. I don't really understand why you stuck with your arguments on Rite, when I didn't see the scumminess to begin with.

2) So far it's being a distraction with my reasons for putting you as my second scummiest.

3) Most effective would probably be xyl, because I find myself agreeing with many of his comments. Least effective is a little harder because I tend to equate least effective with lack of effort, not potential misdirection. For that, I'd point to DoS.

4) Most pro-town would be Xyl, least would be Ortolan. I'm protown because I'm trying to hunt for scum and I'm challenging some of the wagons that I've seen. As for anti-town, I'll go back to my comments about self-preservation. They're true - because in this game shooting me kills a townie - but they did cause an unnecessary distraction.

[HackerHuck]

Some of this probably won't get answered until day 2, but I wanted to get it in before the day ends in case I'm shot.

Oops! Why would one be worried about being shot D1 . . . and not being around D2? Hmmmmmm . . . SCUM!!

Do you really find this to be a significant scumtell or is it just someone forgetting the different mechanics of this game?

@HackerHuck: How did you feel about Xylthixlm guiding Vala Mal Doran?

I don't recall anyone really trying to lead the town around yesterday. What in particular would you like me to comment on?

@HackerHuck: I thought my question was very clear: "How did you feel about Xylthixlm guiding Vala Mal Doran?" Answer; don't avoid.

I thought I was pretty clear in my response. I'll try to rephrase it so that you understand.

I didn't really think that Xyl was specifically guiding Vala. Give me some examples of what you're talking about and I'll give you my feelings on them.

These answers do not address Xylthixlm's advice giving yesterday because that would show the different standards in response to my play versus Xylthixlm's. (@HackerHuck: Look at iso 0, 4, 32, 36, 49 to you, 50, 52, 53, 54, 55, 65, 66 for some examples with Vala Mal Doran and other players.)

I don't see that your behaviour is at all similar to Xyl's. Xyl was giving general advice that would apply to any gunbearer, whereas you appear to be leading the town and ignoring the gunbearer. Even if I felt that Xyl were "guiding Vala", I don't think it compares here. You're not guiding Bogre, rather trying to take over for him.

I would like everyone to weigh-in on the evidence. (For those who need it spelled out: Do you agree that Sarag is obvscum based on the post 360 statement? If not, why not?)

Not Obvscum, because I don't see any damning evidence in that post. Wouldn't it be more useful if you actually pointed to what you felt made him "obvscum"?

[HackerHuck]

I just don't get it, so could you please spell it out. What was the big scumslip in 360 and why does getting a single suspect from everyone help you out before the big reveal?

Your last post seems a little less certain than you were before.

[HackerHuck]

Bogre if by any chance you're not going to shoot one of dos hacker sarag or almaster please just shoot me instead so I can frag the scum.

Thats not a very townie thing to say. We still get a dead townie from it.

What makes you think we'll get a dead townie from it?

@HackerHuck: How much discussion has there been in this game about the mechanics and proper play? A good amount. I have no reason to believe that it had anything to do with a lapse in understanding. (BTW, thanks for giving the scum an out if she couldn't or didn't think of that as an excuse.)

There has been a lot of discussion and there has still been confusion. It's borderline scummy to try and string someone up just for confusing the mechanics of this game.

You either forgot to answer or are choosing not to answer my question about what was so obviously scummy in Sarag's post you referenced.

[HackerHuck]

Well, I'm not convinced she's town so I don't see much value in me arguing the point any further. That said, if Xyl's got a point that hasn't been addressed, it would be a good idea to let Bogre know what the big scumtell is - unless you're also holding back to get reactions.

[HackerHuck]

bogre's not even gonna shoot me, he's gonna shoot the scum. Also I'm not an idiot to want the gun so I can frag the scum. Who wouldn't?

What was the point of that whole charade, then?

Good point.

[HackerHuck]

If ortolan is town gambiting . . . what is the point? I don't see how it leads to finding scum.

This is correct.

I don't like how DoS is skating by, but he's not alone. There are a couple of others who are skating below the radar, but I can't remember who they are.

I'm going to have spotty access for the next couple of days due to travel.

[HackerHuck]

@howardroark - Did Ortolan derail your push for Sarag or were you finished trying to press that case?

I don't think I've seen rewq in a little while. He may warrant a closer look.

[HackerHuck]

Bogre - please listen to Ortolan and put him out of his misery. He hasn't done any scumhunting since the game began and it doesn't seem to be getting any better. After you get him out of the way, you can go after Howard or someone else that you prefer.

[HackerHuck]

I really like Sarag's post 587 - except for the part where she says "either interpretation has HackerHuck as scum". I'd sure like to see what Xyl has to say about the scum slip he saw from Sarag that wasn't the really weak one that was Howard's big reveal.

Nacho's stubbornness about his case on Xyl doesn't strike me as being overly scummy and his last comment about Xyl going after Bogre makes some sense.

Yes, I can certainly make the case that Ortolan hasn't done any scum hunting. He basically admitted that he's sat down on his haunches after posting his initial scumlist and won't bother looking at anyone else because he hasn't been proven wrong. I know he's wrong about one of suspects and I'd be willing to bet that he's no better than 50% on those four.

Looking back at rewq, I didn't find anything too suspicious about him other than an odd 180 on his response to one of my comments.

I was thinking about Yos' contributions and I wasn't really sure who he was targeting as scum, so I decided to take a look at him in isolation. This post really struck me.

I don't really have a good third candidate. Yosarian2 keeps sliding under my radar and seems to be playing very reactively

...

what?

I've been very active, and quite agressivly scumhunting the entire game. I haven't been "reactive" at all, other people have been forced to react to my attacks. Including you.

So what the heck are you talking about?

I had a very similar feeling in that he was under the radar, yet you know that he's active from reading. A lot of his posts are very defencive - of others - and he's only had a couple of real pushes on players that I saw - Bogre and then Howard. That's more real scumhunting than I've seen from a few people, but it's kind of buried by a lot of his other posting. I'd like to know what Yosarian2 thinks of Sarag's case on Howard and whether that jives with the feelings he got.

Regarding questions for DoS, I'd like to know whether he thinks Xyl is town.
I'd also like to know who he'd shoot out of Me, Sarag, or Drake and why.

[HackerHuck]

My impression is that he would like to undermine the trust people have in Xyl and stop him from being thought of as "confirmed", but dosn't dare to take him on directly at this stage of the game when Xyl has so much popular support. That's very much a scum tactic; if Howard were actually town who was suspicious of Xyl, I'd expect him to go after Xyl in a much more straightforward way then this.

Interesting point. Do you think that would mean Xyl's list is pretty accurate if Howard is scum or do you think he's planting a seed to get Xyl shot because his list is all wet?

I really like Sarag's post 587 - except for the part where she says "either interpretation has HackerHuck as scum".

Feel free to provide a townie interpretation, I can't think of one.

Well, if you're only looking at it from those two avenues, you're correct that there is no town interpretation. However, that's more of a false dilemma. The actuality of it is that I'm town not wanting to get shot (funny how neither town nor scum want to get shot, so it really isn't much of a tell) and that I felt (and still do for the most part) that Xyl was town and with Bogre tunneling on two townies, being wrong about Bogre would likely cause two dead townies. I've explained this all before, so if you don't follow my thought process by now, it's doubtful you ever will.

[HackerHuck]

Pulling this back up so I don't forget it...

I'll amend: correct play as a

suspected

townie. This game rests more squarely on the decision-making/scum-hunting abilities of the individual rather than the group. Since the penalty for being incorrectly suspected isn't death - and since survival instinct won't kick in - the only person coming under suspicion who should hedge at the prospect of being shot this early is a scum player. Yes, a townie under early suspicion in the interests of the town playing a perfect game might try desperately to avoid the gun, but

the unique mechanics of the game make it so that weaseling out from under the gun should basically be a heavy scum tell.

1) DraketheFake is completely wrong here.
2) DraketheFake is probably scum here.

Isn't the bolded part what you're using to accuse me of being scum?

Bogre, what's your read on HackerHuck? I'm surprised to see he didn't rate a mention in your last post.

I was surprised at that too.

[HackerHuck]

Well that sucked.

Yes it did. Let's hope DoS is a little more involved than he has been lately.

I'm a little surprised by the choice of gunbearer. At first I was happy that Ortolan would be soon revealed as scum, but now I'm wondering whether scum-Ortolan would risk giving DoS the gun.

[HackerHuck]

I'm a little surprised by the choice of gunbearer. At first I was happy that Ortolan would be soon revealed as scum, but now I'm wondering whether scum-Ortolan would risk giving DoS the gun.

I don't like this post - it almost seems to be telling DoS to quickshoot ortolan. At the same time, however, I think ortolan is scum. Not sure what to read off it.

I was actually trying to say the opposite. I think DoS needs to reconsider whether Ortolan is really town.

Nacho, I don't think you really understand WIFOM.

It looks like Sarag is correct and we're in LYLO, then selecting DoS makes more sense. I'll try and do a reread, since we don't want to count on DoS leading the way today.

[HackerHuck]

If I was gunbearer and had 5 minutes to deadline to shoot someone right now, I'd shoot HackerHuck.

Bogre - please listen to Ortolan and put him out of his misery. He hasn't done any scumhunting since the game began and it doesn't seem to be getting any better. After you get him out of the way, you can go after Howard or someone else that you prefer.

It's a good thing you're not the gunbearer. My preference is Howard, but I'd like to read back through to find some decent alternatives. I don't think Sarag is scum.

[HackerHuck]

Sorry about the delay in answering questions. The site issues have made it a little difficult to go back through and get post citations, but I should have enough time to get through it today.

[HackerHuck]

I basically focused on Howard, Maemuki/Slicey, Nacho/Rewq, and Alamaster/Zakeri. The others I feel are town enough or that they wouldn't be strong enough suspects to risk LYLO over. Basically these four are my most likely suspects.

Howard:
post 399 sets the stage. He takes a very strong position that everyone on the Bogre wagon should have known better. Much like Slicey, this is a little odd considering that he was also supportive of the Bogre lynch. I felt that his overall actions at the start of day 2 were off. He seemed to be throwing mud at Xyl to see if anything would stick (392, 398, 399 - by 450, he admits that Xyl is most pro-town). Then once he begins to talk about his big scumtell, he starts to be less helpfull. Look at Yos' 419. It's interesting how Howard seemed to flip-flop on Bogre as the momentum shifted toward him and then he came in at the beginning of day 2 like he knew Bogre had to be town. The whole reveal scenario was also a little scummy to me. Howard comes in acting like he found a smoking gun and proceeds to try and lead the town about. Considering he should have been working on Bogre, his behaviour seems like he was trying to build town support for his case so that Bogre's death wouldn't fall back on his shoulders.
The only thing that has started to cast doubt to me, is that I'm having a bit of trouble trying to see who else in this group of four could be a partner. With four surviving scum, I would think that at least two of them would have to be in this group.


Maemuki:
Slicey - Mostly town read until post 387. I really wish that Slicey were around to explain it. This post was a little dicey - as called out by Howard. What really gets me now is that Slicey had been pretty solid on the Bogre wagon, but just acted like he knew Bogre was town. I really don't like that response. I'm just not sure what it means that Howard caught it.
Maemuki - not so good. Very lurkerish (in plain sight) and I don't really know what she's thinking except that Xyl isn't that townish and that Sarag is scum. I'd quote something, but if you just look at her in iso, it's pretty apparent.

Nachmamma:
Looking at Rewq's post 321, I'm not understanding what he's trying to say. He seems to believe that Bogre is scum, but then he agrees with Xyl about a post that implies that Bogre is town. It seems like it could be buttering up of Xyl, but I'm not sure how much town cred Xyl had at that point. Rewq then seems to want to put some dents in Xyl's armour.

Xylthixlm starts the Bogre wagon based on his reaction to the "don't act scummy" post. Xylthixlm continues to push the Bogre is scum mantra while giving himself an "out" a few times (51 & 81). There's also the fact that he was willing to have Vala Mal Doran die in order for Bogre to die sooner (84). Overall, Xylthixlm doesn't look good in hindsight.

Good point.... this kills 2 townies. Townies we can't afford to lose.... if there are as many townies as mafia, we lose..... Bogre be carefull about your your shot.

@ BogrePlease re-write why you think Rite and his replacement are scummy.

While I thought this was a good post at the time, it does seem odd that he would ask the gunbearer this question. After that, there's not really any scum hunting that I could see. He quotes a lot with little one-liners that might try to pick at a comment here and there, but he's more or less playing devil's advocate to everyone and not supporting his stances.
Nacho comes in and makes a big push against Xyl and was pretty stubborn about it. He seemed to justify himself pretty well, so I didn't really find that scummy. What is scummy, is the fact that he hasn't done anything else except argue with Yos about Xyl. The most analysis he's done except for commenting on Xyl is in his most recent post.

Alamaster:
Zakeri - Nothing really to note. I found him to be pretty unscummy.
Alamaster - I found his choice of Howard as his top scum to be very OMGUSsy, but in looking at the back and forth, I could see Alamaster doing a little bussing. When he jumped on board with the Sarag tell, that felt a little off. I found this turnaround a little strange because it wasn't really explained. He went from wanting Sarag dead to leaving her off of his list of three and Howard landed back on it.

If I had the gun, I would shoot either ortolan or Saraag right now.

Ortolan because of what just happened.

Saraag because he hasn't posted in a while, which is odd given HR's offensive claims.

Shoot ortolan already. He's scum. I'd also be satisfied with offing DOS or HR (HR because 1) I agree with Yosarian2's case and 2) HR isn't doing anything other than saying "hay guy, look at that awesome scumtell I found on Sarg.")

I don't really find these quotes to support a Howard/Alamaster scumteam, but I could see scum-Alamaster forgetting that he was bussing scum-Sarag.

[HackerHuck]

I'm not sure that your question really relates to me. It was Mae's lurking that had me reread Slicey and I wasn't thrilled with his response to the shot at Bogre. That's where the big inconsistency was, where Slicey acted like he already knew that Bogre would be town.

The other question is a bit odd. If you shoot me, that ends the game, so that alone is good enough not to kill me. Since everyone else would likely say the same, I'm not sure what you mean to accomplish with it. From your short list, I would pick either Howard or Alamaster. I'm actually wondering why you aren't considering Nacho.

[HackerHuck]

Rereading Zakeri I actually quite like his play. He was lurky, but his posts were good when they were made. I find it easy to follow his thought processes. I also liked Almaster's pressuring of Howard, and his other posts. For some reason I wasn't noticing him much and thinking of him as a lurker almost as bad as DoS but reading his posts, they're actually decent. Not amazing, but I see nothing damning there.

...

Hmm, actually after reading HackerHuck's 689 I agree that AlmasterGM's turnaround on me does seem pretty scummy. Like he thought "hey - easy target!" (or "hey I'm going to help my scumbuddy push this case") and then when no one cared, he let it go. Some town points to HackerHuck for this find actually.

!!! Wait, is this "Hey my scumbuddy slipped up and now somebody noticed it! Quick! Call HH town 'cause he did that!"

Also Almaster said that Sarag was probrably scum. Then we get to D3, where did that suspicion go to?

If it were such a slip, how come you didn't notice it?

I didn't get the feeling from your earlier posts that this was a two-way relationship. You had been using Sarag's supposed scumminess to tie in Alamaster when she changed her tune on him. Now you're saying it's the other way around, where Alamaster turning up scum means that Sarag is too? Were you even suspicious of Alamaster on his own merits or was it just because Sarag picked up on an inconsistency of his? It really seems like you're trying to force a case on Sarag.

[HackerHuck]

You should shoot HowardRoark instead. I've made the case for that already.

This is a very good reason not to shoot HowardRoark.

My top suspect is Maemukei.

t.l.;dr - you should shoot Maemuki today.

I am believing an Sarag/AlmasterGM scumteam now. She looks like "Hey, just look! There are scummier people than my buddy *attackattackattack*"

These are very good reasons not to shoot Maemukei.

...

I don't know why Xyl thinks Yos is town, he and Hacker are totally the odd ones out here. I'm about 95% sure they're the last two scum at this point.

So it appears that you think the scum are incapable of bussing - except for me.

...I don't really find these quotes to support a Howard/Alamaster scumteam, but I could see scum-Alamaster forgetting that he was bussing scum-Sarag.

I'm also wondering why you aren't concerned that Nacho thinks Yos is town. I really haven't seen anything in his play that indicates a good town read, and the quote you provided certainly doesn't convince me.

[HackerHuck]

Also, just notice how HH was attacking me for attacking Sarag on the beginning of Day 4. Now, he completely forgot about it and

refuses to talk about it

.

What are you talking about?

[HackerHuck]

If it were such a slip, how come you didn't notice it?

...it's not a damn slip if there's not a freaking flip! What, do you think that I can see everyone's role PM's before they flip? Give me a break.

You do realise how this game is played, right? Informed minority = scum = role PM with scumbuddies. Anyway, that's not even the point of the "slip". It was when Alamaster had been putting Sarag high on his scumlist and suddenly dropped all suspicion of her without any reason.

Hmm, actually after reading HackerHuck's 689 I agree that AlmasterGM's turnaround on me does seem pretty scummy. Like he thought "hey - easy target!" (or "hey I'm going to help my scumbuddy push this case") and then when no one cared, he let it go. Some town points to HackerHuck for this find actually.

!!! Wait, is this "Hey my scumbuddy slipped up and now somebody noticed it! Quick! Call HH town 'cause he did that!"

Also Almaster said that Sarag was probrably scum. Then we get to D3, where did that suspicion go to?

You were the one who called it out as a slip when you read Sarag's post. My question was why you didn't identify it as a slip earlier. If anything, you ignored my question with a non-answer.

Since you believe that I'm scum, I'm curious how you reconcile it with this post of Sarag's. Up until that post she had spent my entire time in-game calling me out as scum. I noticed Alamaster's odd turnaround on Sarag, so she decides that I'm not as scummy, but now Alamaster is. If I'm scum, why would she just move from one scum to another?

[HackerHuck]

Eeeeh, HH, no point on discussing whether Almaster or Sarag are scum, they're dead, and they're scum!

You were the one annoyed that I was ignoring it

Since you believe that I'm scum, I'm curious how you reconcile it with this post of Sarag's. Up until that post she had spent my entire time in-game calling me out as scum. I noticed Alamaster's odd turnaround on Sarag, so she decides that I'm not as scummy, but now Alamaster is. If I'm scum, why would she just move from one scum to another?

HH, meet this magical concept known as...

bussing.

According to Xyl, the scum were ignoring me. I know very well that you're familiar with the concept of bussing. I was asking why thought scum would supposedly unbus one person to just bus another.

You were the one who called it out as a slip when you read Sarag's post. My question was why you didn't identify it as a slip earlier. If anything, you ignored my question with a non-answer.

I didn't because I didn't pay attention.

Why wouldn't you pay attention to two people that you thought were scummy?

[HackerHuck]

Oh well, I'm sorry I wasn't convincing enough. I'm also smart enough to realise that being wrong isn't the same as being scummy. That should allow some of you to worry a little less.

[HackerHuck]

Nacho - If you were gunbearer and had to shoot someone now, who would it be and why?

[HackerHuck]

Still thinking Yos is town

Why?

[HackerHuck]

Took another look at Yos, and compared to some past games I've played with him. He is hard to read, but my gut says he's town. I'll take another look if Maemuki and HowardRoark are shot and the game isn't over.

If you look at Maemuki, she had posited that Sarag and Alamaster were scum together. I would normally think of that as coming more likely from town, but you seem to think she's scummy. Why is that?

[HackerHuck]

OK, you had a recent reason to not post. Xyl's probably one of the townies here, so tell me why he's wrong about you.

[HackerHuck]

It's especally funny for you to act like my post was "OMGUS", when I've been saying for DAYS now that the scum are (Howard, Mae, Sarag, and Almaster). How can my post be OMGUS when I have been attacking you and your three scumbuddies for days before you ever attacked me?

Yos, while you may be a great player, I'm not sold that you could get all four scum right (unless they were listed in your role PM.) Which are you more likely to be wrong about - Howard or Mae - and whom would you replace that person with?

Barring some smoking gun that I've managed to miss so far, Xyl and Ortolan are safe for today. I'd really like to see some more aggression here, without it all being forced by me.

[HackerHuck]

I'd really appreciated if ort began to post a little more; he hasn't posted anything of substance in a week.

Why is that. I'm very unlikely to shoot him and he hasn't really brought a lot of insight that I can use? What do you expect to get out of him?

[HackerHuck]

Considering the activity level here, I see no point in waiting until deadline to pull the trigger. I'll be taking a shot in the next day, so I'd like to see final comments before I do so.

[HackerHuck]

Xyl - why shouldn't I shoot Nacho?

I'd like it to be a reason that doesn't include "because these two other people are scummier..."

[HackerHuck]

I just read the rules and you can't measure my disappointment at finding that I don't have a gun.

You almost got your wish, but Xyl disappeared on us.

Ortolan - why do you think that Nacho/DGB is town?

Llama - I'm patient enough to wait for you to flesh out some of your thoughts.

[HackerHuck]

Shoot: DGB/Nacho

[HackerHuck]

Hey I spotted the mod reading the thread last night, where's my rifle???

You're going to have to pry it from my cold dead hands.

[HackerHuck]

Who should I kill?

Howard. For the love of all that is good and holy, shoot Howard. And then if you have just one bullet left in your gun after that, shoot Howard again, just to make absolutely sure.

I have no idea why Hacker didn't shoot Howard today; I really find the decision really frustrating, especially since he made it without letting us know that's the direction he was leaning in first.

Seriously, you couldn't tell that was the way I was leaning? A lot of my questions revolved around nacho.

[HackerHuck]

I really had a bad feeling about nacho for quite a while, but I also didn't like Howard. I didn't really have a feel that Mae was the type to bus the way she did. I'll also admit that I've been off this game, so I didn't really feel solid on any of the suspects.

Nacho slightly edged out Howard in my eyes and I did rush my shot a bit because I felt that a miss on Goofball now would give her more time before nacho came back and I trust her judgment (except that she's always wrong about me.)

It doesn't seem likely, but I'm holding onto a glimmer of hope that she isn't going down easily and I'll still have the gun when Elmo returns.

[HackerHuck]

I find it very interesting that both Nacho and Goofball entered into the game casting a lot of doubt on Xyl. Not only that, but Llamafluff was pretty certain that DGB would flip scum.

[HackerHuck]

wakey, wakey!

5 townies and one scum left. I need to find out everyone's top suspect right now with a little reasoning behind it. Just your number one at this time - pretend that it's LYLO and you've got the gun.

[HackerHuck]

I'm probably going to have very limited access over the next few days, but I hope to have this thing all wrapped up by the weekend.

I'm still waiting on top suspects from a few people...

[HackerHuck]

OK, I'm shooting on Friday. Right now I'm leaning toward Howard, but I'll be doing some rereading over the next few days.

Is there anyone besides Howard that has someone else they would rather I shoot?

[HackerHuck]

Sorry folks, I had hoped to come up with something good, but I'll agree that Howard's the best alternative today. This will be my last shot regardless.

Shoot: Howard Roarke

[HackerHuck]

I'll have to admit that I was a little surprised by that ending. Although I had been suspicious of Howard earlier on, I had a real nagging feeling that he was likely town and the last scum was either Yos or even -gasp- Xyl/Llamafluff. Fortunately, I didn't really come up with anything new on my reread, so I pulled the trigger thinking that Howard would shoot Yos if I had been wrong.

I'm not sure what I did to set off so many people into thinking I was scum, but a setup like this does seem to give the town a bit of a second chance. I'm not sure if it would throw off the balance too much, but I really think that the scum should have a chance to speak amongst themselves, whether it be at all times or limited to within XX hours of a gunshot. I'd be curious to know how the scum felt.

[HackerHuck]

the scum did have daytalk. I'd like to see the qt actually

I hadn't caught that before. Of course I did try to click through to the link in the second post

You really had me going there Goofball, I honestly felt that I had shot wrong. I didn't seem to have a lot of support on the Nacho wagon, but I'm glad I took the shot.

[HackerHuck]

Yeah the deadline rule is fine. It shouldn't ever come up, but you need the deadline to be meaningful for town. Locking the thread doesn't force the gun bearer to make a decision

now

.

Actually maybe these kind of games should have shorter deadlines. Although I think 3 weeks is too long in normal games anyway.

I actually agree with the shorter deadline too. I know that I relied too much on having the deadline, when I should have shot sooner.

As an aside, I'm finding that the site now seems to have more set deadlines than I recall and that players are usually waiting right up until deadline to make their lynch. I much prefer the "set a deadline when conversation isn't going anywhere" approach.