Mini 897 - OpenSource Mafia - Game over!!

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I almost snuck in, too, before.

/confirm

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This game just got very interesting if that's a post-restriction. ^^;

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Vote: Pomegranate

for being late to confirm.

Does "partial-reveal" entail role-not-alignment revealed, or is it intentionally vague?

This will become clearer as the game is played out. Until then, feel free to speculate.

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I vaguely recall from the Queue that someone asked the Mod to ensure that Apple didn't get off the hook or something like that, and he assured whomever that he wouldn't. The tone of the exchange implied that Apple would be non-town IIRC. My a priori guess regarding an Apple user's alignment would have been 3rd party or traitor. [/outguess]

I like his target, though. No complaints for now if he remains well-behaved.

Refer to General Rules #7. Flavor is what I was referring to in the queue.

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Meh, I think the Queue content is outside of "flavor." I'm still taking it into account. Thanks for the notice, though.

Unvote; Vote: Josh Lyman

. The insinuation that Glork is unhelpful is rolefishing. Pome did this, too, but she didn't couple it with a vote (i.e. with rhetoric capable of pulling information) or try to pass off the (absent) vote as non-serious after at least 2 serious votes.

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Vote: Vaya.

Policy lynch - lurking.

This is not an RV.

Wasn't my idea. I agree with it, though.

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Is there a reason you picked that funny confirmer over the other one? Also, do you think that Glork's refusal to explain is anti-town?

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Alma vs. UK.

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Pome voted you because of your strange confirm. UK also had a strange confirm. I asked her if there was a reason she chose you over him. She took me a bit too literally and just said "No."

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The bold was to emphasize the part that answered Pome's question.

Even if you thought we were still in RVS because of such an interpretation, your vote wasn't random at all. Glock did something of substance; you voted him for it. The fact that you then tried to frame it as a random vote in the same post was disingenuous IMO.

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Vaya lurks. I thought that was what Alma was referring to.

It's too bad, too. Vaya is pretty competent when he plays.

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Meta ftw.

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The organization of your confirm certainly made sense, but that didn't keep it from being odd. Also, whether I recognized it was irrelevant to determining why Pome did what she did.

I haven't (to my knowledge) played with about half the player list, so I can assure you that not-knowing-JL is not the basis of my vote. I also don't really understand your insinuation that town players like to lynch unfamiliar players by policy.

I think players should stop pestering Glock.

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Oh, I see. That makes sense.

I'm actually not concerned by his "defense" of Vaya. I wouldn't want to lynch Vaya for that reason, either. I am more concerned about his vote for Glock, the context of said vote, and his attempt to pass it off as random.

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A note to iec - typically, third party roles investigate as innocent to cops. I know this.

Ya, but given that you have claimed Miller and have 3rd party-ish flavor, it's impossible that you are checks-innocent-3rd. Or at least rather unlikely.

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A note to iec - typically, third party roles investigate as innocent to cops. I know this.

Ya, but given that you have claimed Miller and have 3rd party-ish flavor, it's impossible that you are checks-innocent-3rd. Or at least rather unlikely.

Might I remind you this is a bastard game. NOTHING is impossible, and I

can't

won't say anymore about that right now.

Are you emphasizing that in the abstract, or do you really think that someone who doesn't check guilty would claim Miller? Assuming the latter, could you explain why (other than a Mod-mandated fakeclaim)? Maybe I suffer from lack of creativity.

I'm not crazy about JL's elaboration that his vote for Glock was random and the apparent justification for the vote (including the "Glock was unhelpful" bit) was intended to be jokey. I certainly accept that the subsequent jokey parts were jokey, but not the "unhelpful" bit.

(I agree with UK about vote theory.)

Pome, what's your point about scum "not wanting to risk it?" I mean, I agree with you, but why point that out?

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kk @ Fishy

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JL's post is more problematic, but he posted it after Pome had already sorta let the cat out of the bag. I feel the same way about this Pome-JL post pair as I felt about the original Pome-JL post pair about Glock's lack of helpfulness, except that Pome's post was relatively innocuous the first time.

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I think it would take a pretty clueless player to claim scum in response to a move like that from SK. Now that Pome has pointed that out for everyone, it would take a 100% clueless player. The trade-off is that it lets us publicly evaluate SK's claim without the awkwardness of nullifying SK's potential town gambit, but I think she should have at least given everyone more of a chance to post first.

Also, I dunno why she thinks that SK could be Cult-Leader-recruiting-mafia. Seeing that scum presumably knows scum, that seems like an impossible/difficult mechanic to balance. Could be that recruits become like Traitors, I guess, but that doesn't seem like a very default thesis to me.

I would vote her, but I am busy voting JL. <_<

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No idea. Alma posted something similar to confirm, though.

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About SB's ability:

It sounds like it could be a cult that

can

recruit mafia.

I was referring to this.

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The likelihood that SK is actually a town-aligned player with that ability is low IMO. Why would he come out and claim it? It would be like claiming CL D1 in a town-cult game. If there are actually games with roles like the one SK is insinuating, please let me know.

I hadn't thought of force-replacing. I suppose that would work.

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(Err...I support the sentiment. But. Take care?)

^^;

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You have similar avatars.

wat. O_o

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Barring extenuating role-specific circumstances, please do not claim until you are at L-1 and someone not already voting you has requested your claim.

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What's with this epidemic of HUGE spaces after each quote?

SK's "change a player's alignment" statement is a little vague. If that's really all there is to it, she should probably be careful.

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Oops! I've been thinking her name was Snow_Knight. ^^

Yeah, I meant Snow_Bunny. My mistake.

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That sounds reasonable. It's a little weird that Mr. Apple is apparently a Miller and you aren't, though.

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While Vaya does often lurk D1, I think that in this instance it correlates with general inactivity on the site. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

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I share your frustration, but I'm not a player who policy-lynches policy-lurkers.

Vaya was town in Moviestar Madness, and he played with reasonable activity after nearly being policy-lynched for lurking D1. Found scum, too, and ultimately survived to endgame to win for town. Something similar happened re: Vaya's behavior in I-Love-You mafia IIRC, minus finding the scum and having the town win. That's the basis of my D1-only claim. It could be that my experience with Vaya is out of the ordinary.

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I don't see what we have to gain from SB full-claiming. If she is scum, she'll lie. If she is not, I'm sure she can make inferences based on her flavor as competently as any of us. I suppose we might be able to glean something from her hypothetical lie, but I think that possibility is comparatively remote given Alma's softclaim.

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I suppose she can use her best judgment.

Has the Mod modded games like this in the past? If so, could you direct me to them? I want to get an idea of what to expect.

This is only the 2nd game I have modded and the first theme game.

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I doubt SB has other abilities. If she did, she wouldn't have come out and claimed that way. But she should clearly take that into account when she makes her decision.

SP, why are you singling-out Vaya for that? Several other players have already said the same thing.

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I asked you because I didn't (and don't) understand what differentiates Vaya wanting SB to claim from Glock or UK wanting him to claim. The most salient feature IMO is that Vaya said you might be scum with JL:

I don't know, I'm really not particularly feeling scum from Josh right now. If I had to make a guess if he were scum, I would think that at least one of his buddies are busing him, as I usually see happen when scum is wagoned like this.

I'd guess that this would most likely be SocioPath.

So, since the logic you presented (that Vaya wanting SB to claim was scummy) didn't match your vote, your vote looked like an OMGUS vote, but I wanted to give you a chance to demonstrate otherwise.

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There weren't any previous posts. What's your point? We have already established that that is null.

It's not as if Vaya posted a half-baked comeback post. He addressed the current issue (SB), an attack against him (lurking), and the issue he missed (JL). Is there something I've forgotten about that he failed to address?

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The basis of my claim that Vaya's lurking Wednesday and Thursday was null is indeed with Vaya has indicated. If you take a break from the entire site for a few days, that has nothing to do with your alignment in any existing games. That was why I didn't get too excited about SP's "case" on Vaya.

On the other hand, I am very disappointed that Vaya didn't vote someone in his return post. There had been plenty of issues to weigh-in on up to that point; his failure to vote someone based on any of that looks a little scummy IMO. Coming in a few hours later to vote the player steam seems to be gathering around doesn't help much, either.

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"GM"? I guess that's Alma?

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Oh, I forgot about his suffix. I thought it was an alt or something. Now I feel silly.

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...SSK...I've heard you can be a useful protown player.

lolwat.

The only remotely scummy thing Vaya has done is the delayed SP vote, and even that's a stretch. I'd vote SP, except that I don't want JL to get off the hook due to V/LA. <_<

Would also like to hear SSK explain why SP isn't full of crap.

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SSK has been mislynched-town in every game I've played with him (Lazy Neighborhood, I-Love-You, etc). If anything, I usually get the impression that he doesn't read the game very closely. He apparently forgot he had a town PR in Lazy Neighborhood. Maybe my experience just isn't representative.

Not that it wouldn't be nice for him to participate.

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This is why I like being invisible. I have a hard time pointing out specific scum tells that tell who is scum.

lolirl.

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This is why I like being invisible. I have a hard time pointing out specific scum tells that tell who is scum.

lolirl.

?

You're funny.

Or were you being serious?

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I have a hard time buying that SSK has role-based reasons to find Vaya scummy. Vaya hasn't claimed anything. It would only make sense if SSK were told up-front "PS VAYA IS SCUM."

Or I'm just not creative enough to figure it out.

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I've never been scum on this site.

I think you're more likely to get a meta-based defense of SSK than a meta-based attack on SSK. Actually, you've kinda already offered one of those. <_<

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Yes I have noticed this trend with Iec.

Pray tell where you noticed this?

Unvote; Vote: MafiaSSK

.

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Hmm. OK. I did survive until the end of ILY, and I was big on SSK's D2 lynch, so I could maybe see SSK misremembering that, especially if he didn't check in post-game much. Lemme check.

Vote stays for now.

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I checked ILY post-game, and Slicey never posted in the post-game. It could that he just never checked back but was pretty (mistakenly) certain of my alignment there.

What's a rapid action? I assume it means that he could use it at any time (e.g. Daycop)?

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I checked ILY post-game, and

Slicey

SSK never posted in the post-game. It could that he just never checked back but was pretty (mistakenly) certain of my alignment there.

Fixed. Oops. ^^

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At worst, it looks like a 1/1 between SSK and Vaya. I don't see why scum would promote that sort of thing, so I'll venture that Vaya is the more likely scum between the two all things considered. I wouldn't have claimed Daycop-ish D1, but I suppose caughtscum is caughtscum.

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I'm going to say that this is probably your only option as either alignment

What does this mean?

Also, I hadn't noticed your sex. Sorry for probably getting it wrong. ^^;

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I can get behind an SPwagon. It's certainly better than my current vote, and while I don't want to fully abandon JL, his limited activity would make a JL revote pretty inert. And I trust UK's official information on how to handle the SSK/Vaya situation.

Unvote; Vote: SocioPath.

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EBWOP: Good point about the partial reveal business. I'd totally forgotten.

My bias is that SSK should give us information about his result on Vaya to prevent the SSKscum scenario where he can adjust his fakeclaim to fit with the partial reveal. (UK's already said she has reason to believe this isn't the way to go, but it could be that she forgot, too.)

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Out of curiosity, who did you remember me protecting in ILY, SSK? O_o

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I simulposted with Vaya.

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I thought I was the second vote, discounting Vaya? Who's our 4th wagonmate?

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I've checked back and don't see anyone...are you counting Vaya twice?

It's certainly true that the basis of my vote was partially UK's vote, though. I disqualified myself from starting an SP wagon back then because he was already voting me.

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Gorrad's not in this game. Unless you're saying his alt is?

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Oh, Glork, OK.

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I'm always very concerned about how I'm perceived. Namely, if I don't edit myself significantly, I end up wallposting everything. (Check my first Newbie game on the site (Mongol mafia) where I was mislynched D2 for an idea of how I'd play uncensored. Because of what happened there, I changed my playstyle significantly.)

I started the bandwagon on JL, so I don't think I'm guilty of bandwagon-following. And I thought I was 2nd on SP. <_<

It's true that I was following there, though. My intent was to provide the necessary pressure on SP to make him active. All he'd done up til then is random vote (though I think his "random vote" on JL was serious) and make a bad case on Vaya. Even if Vaya is scum, I still think SP's case was lazy-to-scummy.

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Also reinforced with Iec voting SSK for claiming Vaya as scum.

I voted SSK for claiming I had a "meta" of protecting my scumbuddies. I have never been scum, so there was no basis for SSK's claim. It looked to me like he was just supplying the easy answer to UK's yes/no question. I think it's possible that he did misremember my alignment in ILY mafia, though, for reasons I've already mentioned.

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SSK didn't clarify that he had misremembered me as scum in ILY until after I voted him. I was thinking that SSK was just blithely saying "HE DOES THIS AS SCUM" without any evidence. I'm still slightly unsure about it, which is why I asked him who he misremembered I was scumbuddy-protecting.

I took UK's bandwagon-following criticism to mean "Iec has a history of bandwagon-following." In actuality, I have bandwagon-followed once, and for good reasons IMO. That's the point I was trying to make.

You haven't been inactive per se, but you'd kinda fallen on the backburner during the whole Vaya-SSK thing IIRC. You were also the scummiest player who was both non-V/LA and not Vaya or SSK IMO.

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If I were scum, I would kill UK. If I were doctor, I would save UK.

If I were scum with UK, I would kill SSK.
If I were scum with UK and SSK, I would kill. Uhh. Someone innocuous. Pome?
If I were scum with UK and Vaya, I would kill Glock.

Wild card is SB.

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I misread Glock's post. I thought he was trying to get a read on other players. Sorry. <_<

Finished games on the site, are --

Mongol Mafia (Newbie)
Twilight mafia
Lazy Neighborhood mafia
Rabbit Doubt mafia
Grimm's Pokemon Madness mafia
Tajo's ILY mafia
Moviestar Madness mafia
Newbie 858

I'm also currently playing in 4 other ongoing games.

My view of UK's plan hasn't really changed since the previous page. Because of the weirdness of SSK's gambit (e.g. "Why would scum set-up a 1/1?"), I initially wanted to lynch Vaya. When UK breadcrumbed official reasons both could be town, I figured following him could work out; we could lynch him later if it turned out that he was scum with Vaya. However, being reminded of the partial reveal made me somewhat more wary. Proving that UK is scum with Vaya would take a long time, as some kind of Priest analogue who determines alignments of dead players is probably necessary. So I'm leaning back toward possibly preferring Vaya again.

On the other hand, SSK's misremembered meta rubs me the wrong way. I do have a little bit of a crush on elvis, so I was probably pretty friendly with her in ILY. I'll go back and see whether his claim is feasible.

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OK, so, here's the deal with ILY and whether SSK is full of shit --

Supporting evidence

SSK attacks elvis D1
I supported elvis and supported attacks on SSK D1

Troubling evidence

elvis died N1. SSK was mislynched D2.
elvis was lovers with SSK (in this game, essentially non-confirmed masons)

So, on the one hand, it's true that perceiving an elvis-Iec link would be reasonable, and given that we were kinda opposed to him I could see him thinking we were scum. But you'd think he'd remember his lover's alignment, especially since she died before he did. But this is the guy who forgot he was a Hider in Lazy Neighborhood. <_<

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Actually, I think I [started the JL wagon]. Unless you're not counting my vote because it was random...?

To be honest, I forgot about your vote. But I'll still take credit for it since I was the first serious vote.

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Why should a townie care what they look like?

Just to play devil's advocate here, a townie with an important power role (doctor, cop) should probably care what they look like. If a PR townie looks scummy enough, a truthful claim won't save them.

For me, it's null to that. I've always played as town, and I've always tried to be extremely cognizant of how I'll be perceived even when I'm VT. Very sorry if this is anathema to everyone. I think I actually made the same speech in one of my finished games, if it's any consolation. I thought it was Twilight, but I can't find it. <_<

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EBWOP: Found it. It's ongoing, though, so I can't link to it. Maybe in a bit.

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SSK's "misremembered" business is scummy because I don't think he misremembered it at all. I think he said I defended buddies as scum under the assumption that I have been scum somewhere on this site. You'll notice that he only mentioned his reasoning after UK pushed him for it, and his answer was very, very minimalistic. Then we had to pull teeth to get the whole story out of him. I think he was filling in the gaps as we requested them.

The counter possibility requires that he really did:

1. Misremember the alignment of his mason-buddy who died before him in a recent game,
2. Misremember my alignment in said game,
3. Saw fit to explain his belief and error as slowly as possible.

Which is possible (the last bit fits his meta), but remote as a whole.

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Both claims strike me as genuine.

SSK's and UK's?

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Pome still has her RV.

Unvote

.

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@Iec: Do you think that if SSK realized he was mistaken before he let on that he was mistaken, that he's scum? Or do you think it's more curious than scummy?

If SSK had said "my bad" before I called him out on it, that would not have been scummy. But I don't think he did. (Is this purely hypothetical?) This is how it happened IIRC:

SSK and Iec simulpost "Iec does this as scum" v. "I have never been scum."
SSK and Iec simulpost "I could've sworn you were ILYscum" v. "lolwat

Vote

"
Iec says he'll look into whether SSK's claim is feasible.
SSK retracts the meta bit.
Iec asks further questions about SSK's misremembered ILY.
SSK responds.
Iec posts a summary post.

It is possible that it was an honest mistake on SSK's part (e.g. he is kinda an amnesiac, etc), but he'd have to have forgotten stuff about his masonbuddy in a recent game.

I don't like Pome's level of involvement, but she wasn't really a star scumhunter in Twilight, either. Then again, that was her first game. Does anyone have more recent experience with her? I'll think about Pome after I hear what she comes up with.

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VoteCount, please.

I'm pretty sure Pome has 4 votes.

Vote: Pomegranate

. Now she has 5. That's L-2. I indicated I would wait for her next post before voting for her, and that was her next post. So. I'm voting for her. Doublecheck the count before you join in, please.

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JL, do you think she's lying, or do you think she's inappropriately using that as an excuse?

Pome, if you could list your most recently-completed games as town and scum, that would be nice.

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I would giggle a little if anyone L-1'd her at this point.

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I find it more than a little troubling that there are no votes at all on Vaya in spite of the implicit daycop guilty. O.o

Pome has been the most vapid poster today. I'm not convinced that it's a reliable tell for her, which is why I've asked for some samples of her more recent play.

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The thing to do is to wait for more information on her meta and for her supposedly-nascent other post. Or whoever already has it could supply it, as per my prior request.

UK -- remind me why I'm likely scum, other than null things and things that would be more efficiently determined by lynching Vaya? I know this is D1, but it sort of doesn't make sense, etc. (Also, do you quote that way intentionally?)

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OK. Fair enough. Silly case, though. The first two aren't any better than SP's on Vaya, and the last two (as you indicate) do not imply that lynching me is ideal play.

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The point is that they are both examples of metafail.

SP's case on Vaya was bad because Vaya is always lurky D1 (and was inactive on the site up til his case was made).

Your case on me is bad because I am always concerned about how I'm perceived (for good reasons that I have already indicated). Also, your two non-Vaya points contradict one another as you're applying them. The first implies that I *should* vote my conscience, appearances be damned, while the second point is derived from Pome's assertion that 3rd votes are scummy. (Hadn't noticed the second bit before.)

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Honestly, I wasn't really looking at her til you came to her defense.

Hmm. Please clarify what you mean by this.

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Either you were operationalizing your criticisms, or you weren't.

If you weren't, then you're just sloganeering and your criticizing has little to nothing to do with my play. In this case, your case on me (except the Vaya bits) is just a variation of 2TOWN4TOWN, which is very lazy, level-able at almost any player, etc.

If you were, and I think you need to reread the situation. When I voted SP with you (which is the basis of both your first two points against me, as I understand it), I clearly indicated the basis of my support. It was in fact undifferentiable from your own stated basis for the wagon. That one of these is scummy and one not -- especially given that we both thought we were the 2nd vote -- does not make sense to me.

And yeah, Pome was the first one to bring up the 3rd vote business. You corrected her (saying it was the 4th vote counting an early-game vote) and chastised her for expressing her reads in wikitell format, but agreed with the substance of her assertion.

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Hmm. Please clarify what you mean by this.

Possibility of a chainsaw causes me to reassess both of you. Tomorrow though.

1. I asked that.
2. Let me clarify my questions with nice bold for you.

Honestly,

I wasn't really looking at [Pome]

til you came to her defense.

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"Operationalize" means "clarify what it means." For example, if your tells are clear enough that you can decide that some things apply and some things don't given any appropriate input, that's a well-formed, operationalized tell.

Some people don't use operationalized tells. For example, some people say that they feel something in their gut, or that something feels "off." These are not operationalized tells because they depend on the person giving them. Some tells, like 2TOWN4TOWN, appear to be operationalized, but they're not. I think you can see why, right?

Let me know if that doesn't clear up those first two paragraphs.

The Pome business is all on Page 10. The relevant posts are 232, 234, and 246. It's probably better to read it all in context, though.

If you were only cross with me for saying I didn't want to vote SP while he was voting me after I pointed out his mistake with the Vaya business, you shouldn't have accused me of "bandwagon-following" at all. To the extent that your "bandwagon-following" point isn't totally vacuous (which is not an instance of "splitting hairs" at all ), it is an indirect cross-reference of Pome's point. (For the record, it's very poor play IMO to directly attack attackers in my experience. Even if your points are good, you invariably come off as hysterical.)

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(EBWOP: Yes, I'm aware that that isn't literally what "operationalize" means, but it'll do for now innit.)

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In case people don't want to go back to Page 10 for whatever reason, this is the post where UK does what I prior indicated:

Iec, your vote is suspicious. The third vote on a bandwagon/in a row is a tad scummy. It's not very scummy- I'm just throwing this out there.

It's the fourth vote actually. It bothers me as well. Initially Iec wanted to stay on Josh, despite the V/LA being pointed out. I did the same thing. Now that I've switched off Josh though, Iec has followed. This does not put me at ease, but I'll take a wait and see approach. His vote on SSK did feel more self motivated and actually scum hunty.

Also, lol at wikitell, Pom .

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UK, my point is that whereas you indicated that you had not looked at Pome this game til recently, it is quite clear that she has been on your radar (if not your scumdar) for much of the game. Your interaction after her wikitell on me is just one example. You minimized her behavior in this exchange, too:

Pome, what's your point about scum "not wanting to risk it?" I mean, I agree with you, but why point that out?

You wanna know what bothers me more? Josh's most recent post on the issue. Honestly, the answers to most of those questions are self evident, and I really don't see a pro town reason for asking them.

Perhaps others disagree?

Regarding 2T4T -- it's not that you're necessarily accusing me of that, but the alternative interpretations of your attack make no sense. Here are some possible ways to understand your argument:

1. Late wagon-joining is scummy.
2. Iec did it.
3. Iec is scum.

^ But that's bull, because I thought I was the second vote. (It's a pretty silly argument, anyway, but that's neither here nor there.) So I'm assuming that isn't what you mean, right? So to understand my action as scummy, something absurd like this is necessary:

1. Late wagon-joining is scummy.
2. Townies don't care about trying to look scummy! O_o
3. Iec did it, so he's trying to look townie! o_O
4. Iec is scum.

Which is 2T4T/very silly.

Your point is that I didn't want to revote a player attacking me (SP) is recognized, but it is similarly 2T4T because my action was literally the OPPOSITE of the stereotypically "scum" action (i.e. OMGUS). Hence, while you are claiming that that is scummy, it is actually, if anything, the opposite of scummy. You've set-up a circumstance where regardless of my response to SP back then (OMGUS v. status quo), it would be interpreted as a "scum" action, whether conventionally or via flawed 2T4T logic. So your tell would not be operationalized. (This reflects my prior claim that either your tell is not operationalized, or you need to reread Page 10.) Does that make sense?

Opinion = meta. It is not irrelevant, especially when you're making claims about a player's action being reflective of his alignment.

I'm looking forward to your vague claim that I have "followed" on other occasions today. I followed you to SP because I trusted your "official information" claim that lynching Vaya was poor play, and I maintain that that was perfectly reasonable given the premise that you are not full of shit. Granted, whether you are full of shit is yet to be seen, etc.

Your claimed "reasons OUTSIDE of lololol, fourth on bandwagon" really just indicate that our play with respect to the SP votes were insignificantly different. I could just as easily claim that you were scummy for protecting Vaya and attacking her former attacker. In fact, the accusation is more suitable in your case given your vague "official information" claim.

[Iecerint]

See, I love how this is. It's a complete misrep of what I said. You act like the late wagon joining itself is the scummy point, whereas it's not. It's the following behavior and the lack of original thought between your switches. Now does it make sense?

UK, I think you actually claimed 2 separate suspicious thing I did -- the first is the subsequent behavior; the second is the bandwagon following itself:

-Worrying too much about appearances (It's not OMGUS if you actually have reasoning, so damn the accusation and go forward. At least if you're townie)
-Bandwagon following (not scummy in and of itself but not very helpful to town)

I, ah, hadn't been noticing the parenthetical on the second point, though. Point taken. But that's why I thought it was appropriate to address it as a separate issue. The first issue is just my playstyle as far as I can tell.

Why did you follow me to SP? Why didn't you vote anyone else? What original reasoning did you have on SP? Or was it just blatant bandwagoning?

Here's the post where I voted SP.

I can get behind an SPwagon. It's certainly better than my current vote, and while I don't want to fully abandon JL, his limited activity would make a JL revote pretty inert. And I trust UK's official information on how to handle the SSK/Vaya situation.

Unvote; Vote: SocioPath.

So the logic was like this:

1. We have a claimed 99% certain guilty on Vaya.
2. UK claims that she has official information that lynching Vaya is not optimal play.
3. UK appears to want to pressure SP.
4. Hey, I'm suspicious of SP, too! He made that crap argument against Vaya! And UK's "official information" claim may further imply that Vaya is likely town!
5. I'll pressure SP, too! After all, UK seems like a nice

man

lady, my vote on SSK is outdated given the information in ILY (and he's claiming daycop, anyway), and JL is out to pasture. No better place for my vote!
6.

Vote

.

[Iecerint]

Pome, it gives me a warm feeling that you don't like the case on me, but you still haven't done much scumhunting these past few posts.

[Iecerint]

UK, those posts you've linked are 100% consistent with the 5-point explanation I indicated. The first says that your vote was part of my vote, which is accurate. The second is the vote post that I already reposted, which says the same thing, plus why I disqualified SSK/Vaya/JL. So. I don't know what you were trying to demonstrate by posting those. Did you just think no one would read them?

If you don't have some form of reasonable inference specifically concerning Vaya, I think your "official information" claim is highly suspect. It would have to be of the form "daycops FTL," which you could just share with us AFAIK. (Or I suffer from lack of creativity, which is common.)

[Iecerint]

Yeah, sorry about 61. I misread Glock's rhetorical question as an actual request. <_<

I'm not sure between Pome and JL. Neither has really done any scumhunting to speak of, except for Pome's wikitell on me earlier. Her comeback posts have some decent theory discussion, and the defense of me is welcome, but there's no focus on finding scum IMO. That's not to say that JL's done any of it, either.

I think SP's worth a second look, but his attack on Vaya is null if SSK is correct. I'll look at him again after UK lets us know what's going on, I guess.

Unvote

. Same is true if UK's official information ends up being insufficient to motivate ignoring Vaya in the short term.

[Iecerint]

Actually...SP was rather well telegraphed as well...

What does this mean?

Pure and simple. I'm going to look terrible if Pom flips scum and JL flips town.

Obvscum.

I agree with Alma about theorytalk potentially distracting from scumhunting in the general case. However, I think it was somewhat helpful in this case, as it appears to have provided some counterexamples that explained my playstyle. (But I'm biased.) That's not to say that I disagree that Pome's scumhunting is absent-to-minimal.

[Iecerint]

Pome, what do you make of Alma's request for alignment change, and do you think that affects how we should treat Alma? If so, how?

[Iecerint]

I have an opinion on the subject, but I want Pome to give hers first. I'll say that I think your SB interaction is very important and Pome appears to have minimized it except to point out that it wasn't scumhunting.

[Iecerint]

I have an opinion on the subject, but I want Pome to give hers first. I'll say that I think your SB interaction is very important and Pome appears to have minimized it except to point out that it wasn't scumhunting.

Why did you want to hide this much?

I wanted to avoid telling Pome point-blank what I wanted to hear. Or do you mean something else?

I disagree with Pome about Alma. I think Alma's request for alignment-change targeting strongly indicates that -- contrary to his claim that SB targeting him will give townAlma abilities -- Alma is likely to currently be non-town. After all, this is what led to his request:

So, scums out there, I have this wonderful ability that turns scum into town. So, who's scum? Let me help you. It's totally free.

His recent Vaya-prompted backtrack also looks bad. What after this initial post could have possibly made the flavor mesh *less* well? The only way this initial post *could* have meshed well is if Alma is scum.

Dubiously excluding the UK/SSK/Vaya triumvirate, I think Alma is the most obvious choice. He's almost certainly currently scum, and SB's ability to convert him -- if it exists at all -- is probably compromised by her having claimed it. We're better off killing him now.

Vote: Alma

.

I should add that I don't like Alma in the recent Pome/Alma exchange. It looks to me like Alma is deliberately focusing on minutia of Pome's posts to bring out details that clearly weren't intended.

[Iecerint]

Apparently I never asked you this despite meaning to. Are you really calling me scum with the person who would HAVE to be bussing Vaya and claiming a day ability that he'd have to keep up for the rest of the game to live? And that Vaya was COUNTERBUSSING? And calling me scum because I derailed the whole plan? Logically, I don't think this triplet can even EXIST.

You've misunderstood. I'm not postulating that you three are all scum together. For one thing, making that many connections D1 is obscene. Moreover, I don't think it's really feasible, anyway, for the reason you described.

What I meant was: "Given that we are not going to lynch UK or SSK or Vaya, I think Alma is the best choice." You have claimed that you have actionable intelligence that SSK and Vaya may both be town in spite of SSK's claimed 99% confidence interval. I think a claim that extreme merits a reprieve on gambiting the apparent 1/1. If you end up failing to come up with said actionable intelligence D2 or D3 or after Vaya flips or whatever, that will put us in a good position to judge your alignment, too.

I doubt that scum are incapable of messing up SB's ability, whether by roleblocks, bus-drives, redirects, or whatever else. That's why I disagree that we should take a wait-and-see attitude toward Alma.

[Iecerint]

Yeah, I definitely don't want to forget about Josh. Availability heuristic fail on my part.

I'd dislike Pome more except for her interaction with Alma.

[Iecerint]

The interaction could be better. I'm surprised that Pome would attack Alma without mentioning literally the most obvious scummy thing about him (except to indicate that we should largely ignore it).

I think Pome is unlikely to be scum with Alma, though, on the basis of personal speculation at how she'd play as scum having seen only townPome in Twilight. I'll glance through scumPome games to see if the evidence is there.

[Iecerint]

SB, the stuff on page 10 isn't a case on Pome; it's the drama where I voted SP. Its only relevance to Pome is that there's a possible Pome/UK connection, but isn't it a bit early to worry about that sort of thing, etc.

The case on Pome is that she is not a very energetic scumhunter.

I suppose you're going somewhere with that Glork vote? It doesn't really seem reflective of your post as a whole.

[Iecerint]

Alma, I could believe that, except that you responded to her initial request, which was of the form "come claim, please, scum." It's not as if she started off more vague, then trapped you by clarifying that her ability was only useful when scum targeted her.

If SB is 3rd party, FF is probably her scumbuddy, since he has also claimed Apple-user at present. I doubt they're individual Apple-users; if they were, I think SB may've responded to his claim in some way.

JL, I was literally about to make the same post as you, but I agree with Alma's sentiment. On the other hand, Alma is the one who made it.

[Iecerint]

SB, Alma has not claimed Miller. FF has claimed Miller. Alma claimed that he was a town-aligned Windows user who wanted to use Linux. He implied that there was a role out there that could give him Linux and consequently give him extra abilities of some kind.

I agree with UK/SB that JL looks like a good lynch target. But it makes more sense to lynch Alma, I think, all things considered. If someone strongly believes that lynching JL is better than lynching Alma, please make your case; maybe I've missed something.

[Iecerint]

Turns out, after clarification, it probably won't.

Again, this would make sense except that SB was PERFECTLY CLEAR in her first post that her ability turned scum into town. Her only clarification was that the ability might also turn town into scum, which is irrelevant to your apparent scumclaim. If there's some specific clarification that stands out for you, please specify it, but I think you'd have to have misread her initial post for any subsequent SB post to have clarified things.

Moreover, lets stop and think - even if I AM scum (which I am not), why the hell wouldn't you just use SB on me? That way, we get rid of the "claimed" scum AND get to lynch someone scummy. Win-win. There are NO downsides.

Scum can almost certainly stop SB's ability from working on you. Or, at least, it would shock me if they couldn't. Even if they can't, we're probably left with WIFOM with regard to whether or not the ability took/was real/etc.

There are actual scummy posts and people in this game. Lynching me today is outright stupid.

Like Pome? Who else?

[Iecerint]

Woke up this morning and realized (remembered, rather) that Alma made a post that makes me feel that he is probably protown. At the very least, lynching Alma today is a terrible idea. There's a very good chance that lynching him ever is a terrible idea.

Uh. Is this a post that you're in a position to share with us, or is said post only interpretable via "Official Information?"

I'm kind of shocked that more people aren't excited about lynching Alma. (Are people just assuming the latter above?) Anyway, JL's my second-favorite choice, so I can hammer him if it comes to it. I'd prefer to let those who haven't weighed-in yet (just SSK?) do so before his claim.

[Iecerint]

Nevermind. I figured it out.

I'm going to assume that that either clears him to you or that you're linked in a way that makes his misinterpretation of Alma's post sensible; otherwise, I think the implicit scum-as-of-D1 claim is hard to outweigh.

[Iecerint]

Vaya, you've indicated suspicion of both Alma and JL, but you haven't posted for awhile. What do you make of current events?

[Iecerint]

Also,

SocioPath has not posted in 9 days.

I think I've noticed a similar pattern elsewhere on the site. Could be related to the holidays, but I don't think he's indicated V/LA.

SocioPath has now been prodded.

[Iecerint]

By this game's ruleset, JL can lurk another day before he's prodded.

So we lynch him regardless?

...wat?

[Iecerint]

He's asking the Mod if his claim is a fair paraphrase. Apparently.

[Iecerint]

Just realized I'm still on Alma. I'll race Pome to the hammer if we're not satisfied with the claim (as seems likely).

[Iecerint]

You'd think he'd at least pop in and apologize for the Mod being unresponsive or something. <_<

[Iecerint]

Lurk-to-replacement?

[Iecerint]

Mmm. Does he always play this way, too?

[Iecerint]

I mean, for the bit where he's actually playing the game, does he always seem scummy?

[Iecerint]

K. Was gonna wonder why you hadn't mentioned it before.

[Iecerint]

Could we have a brief extension due to the replacement?

If JL has not picked up his prod and returned by the time I start my search tonight, I will grant a short extension and set a new deadline that will be announced along with the new replacement.

[Iecerint]

Indeed. But I think a claim is necessary.

[Iecerint]

I know you.

I suppose that could potentially explain why JL made an abbreviated claim when the Mod was perhaps slow to respond.

Does your PM explicitly state that your ability does not return alignment, or just state that it determines whether a player is guilty?

If SSK can help us evaluate the claim, that's fine. He should be careful to avoid unwittingly assisting in a fakeclaim, though.

[Iecerint]

EBWOP: ...why JL

did not make

an abbreviated claim.*

And looks like the affiliation claim already came. Do you have more for us once the Mod OK's a paraphrase, or is that the OK'd paraphrase?

We need a massclaim.

lolwat. What sort of massclaim are you advocating, and why?

[Iecerint]

JL's post was rolefishing because he was pretty much asking Glork to provide details about his role. I agree that Glork maybe shouldn't have indicated his association with that rule mechanic, but that doesn't make it OK for JL to try to make the situation worse IMO. I had early-game rolefishing on my mind because I'd recently finished ILY mafia, where I called someone out for pretty much the same thing on page 2, everyone complained that I was reaching, and he ended up being scum that survived to endgame. <_<

I love Vaya, it's true. Read ILY mafia and especially Movie Madness for games I've played with him that led to this feeling. I think he's a strong player, even if a very lurky one. I also think his lurkiness makes him a nearly zwet-tier policy/scummislynch target, which annoys me, because Vaya participates well once the game gets going.

Now that Faraday has explained the alignment business a little better, I don't think he's necessarily insane. But I'd still maybe be OK with lynching Vaya, since that puts us in a better position to evaluate the Cops and UK has retracted her theory that she can help evaluate SSK's result D2. (Frankly, I'd rather lynch claimedscum Alma. The probability that a town player would perceive ARE YOU SCUM? LET ME KNOW! as implying a role that fits just perfectly with their flavor is very very very low to me. The only reason to forego lynching Alma I can see is Glork's insinuation that he may be able to judge Alma's alignment due to their both being numerologists or whatever.)

[Iecerint]

You retracted your theory to the extent that you now want to lynch Vaya. Prior, you were adamantly against lynching Vaya. Now you are OK with it. So your prior theory -- the one that kept lynching Vaya from being a good idea -- is implicitly void. Or you were making a logical error earlier when you said you didn't want to lynch Vaya. Or I suffer from lack of creativity.

[Iecerint]

Thanks for letting me know.

[Iecerint]

This is a no-reveal game as I understand it, though certain players are probably (hopefully) in a position to determine dead players' alignments. So. I assumed you were just making a cute joke.

Are you saying you're some kind of death miller?

[Iecerint]

K.

[Iecerint]

I think that's L-2 on Pome.

Vote count, please

.

It also looks like Vaya only has one vote, and no one wants to lynch Alma for claiming scum. Go figure. I'd rather lynch the claimed guilty than the useless player, especially when the useless player is sort of habitually useless.

Unvote; Vote: Vaya.

.

[Iecerint]

SSK claimed 99% certainty. If he's insane, either his role PM strongly implied no sanity issues or he sort of isn't very good at reading his role PM. And Vaya almost certainly isn't a Miller.

I'd be comfortable punishing him for a mistaken guilty under these circumstances.

[Iecerint]

What do you mean by that? If he's correct and Vaya is scum, there's clearly no reason to punish him.

[Iecerint]

Should add that I've never been in a game with a non-sane Cop. Is it common that they're led to believe their results are 99% certain? I'm assuming not, because you and Faraday used the wording of his claim to infer his sanity.

[Iecerint]

If a Cop gives information directly leading to dead scum, I am willing to confirm that player barring extraordinary evidence to the contrary.

It's difficult for me to imagine how the verification process would work. The simplest explanation (NB: No need to confirm obvs) is that you're a third Cop (lolirl) and are going to use Vaya to test your sanity. But 1) 3 is a big number and 2) that seems like a waste of your ability, anyway.

Basically, you have a big mystery ability that you are asking me to trust in a game where abilities are (as I understand it) deliberately misleading. And you briefly even chose to abandon your plan. And this is a mini, anyway, so it's not as if we can afford to put-off Cop results by a day in general.

I'd like to hear how SSK feels about this, though. He's in a better position to judge

[Iecerint]

Should add that I have reason to believe that sanity issues would probably be implicit in SSK's PM. But I can't say for sure.

[Iecerint]

Cop

Investigation results.

Is your ability useless if we lynch Vaya, or does Vaya's being alive just provide an obvious use for it? Don't answer if it isn't proper to, etc.

Thinking upon my reason for thinking sanity would be implicit in SSK's PM and your new information that sanity is implicit in yours (not to mention SSK's 99% number), I am reasonably confident that sanity would be implicit in his message. [/outguess]

[Iecerint]

I was going to explain to Faraday that, ye know, rolecops exist, but, upon reflection, I actually agree with him, I think, in this case.

...dogged, unrevealed alignments in both games...

Hmm? You mean they weren't revealed post-game?

[Iecerint]

I missed Glork's question due to simulpost.

I think SP has been the scummiest poster for his very silly attack on Vaya, but, because that's largely irrelevant if Vaya is scum and we have reason to believe Vaya is scum (via SSK), it makes more sense to see Vaya's alignment first. (There is a highly annoying element of wait-and-see going around.) I'd put any of the minimalists at tier 2.

[Iecerint]

EBWOP: Well, JL would be tied for tier 1 or would be tier 2, but I like Faraday's posts, and his claim makes lynching him a near-impossibility in the short-term IMO, anyway.

[Iecerint]

Players with wait-and-see status

Sociopath
Vaya(/SSK)
Alma

[Iecerint]

I think SP has been the scummiest poster for his very silly attack on Vaya, but, because that's largely irrelevant if Vaya is scum and we have reason to believe Vaya is scum (via SSK), it makes more sense to see Vaya's alignment first.

That one is a self-imposed wait-and-see.

[Iecerint]

Alma would be at the top of my "scummy posters" list, but I wasn't sure whether implicitly claiming scum counted as "role information."

[Iecerint]

Dude, this was SB's post:

So, scums out there, I have this wonderful ability that turns scum into town. So, who's scum? Let me help you. It's totally free.

What town player would read that and decide ROLE IS MADE 4 ME? To me, this totally 100% trumps any other play (not that his other play is totally incredible -- it's mostly just a series of exchanges with Pome after she targeted him) and means that Alma is almost certainly scum. His connection with Glork infuriatingly makes him wait-and-see, which makes me grit my teeth even more than the situation with Vaya-SP.

[Iecerint]

It had better be good.

[Iecerint]

The fact that your play is stupid scum play does not excuse the fact that it is completely uninterpretable as town play. Glork's implying that your roles may have something that excuses it; I dunno. It would be pretty lame if both players who are (as far as I can tell, at least) forced to put funny numbers into the game were scum, though, so I doubt you're scum together. [/outguess]

Your point that I said nothing about this for over a week is a little silly, because no one said much of anything for about a week. And I'm not tunneling -- I've listed other players I think would be decent lynches. I do want to emphasize that you're the highly obvious person to lynch, and that I find it odd that no one seems to think this is a sort of self-evidently good idea, whereas everyone (mostly) seems at least benignly satisfied with lynching Pome or me.

[Iecerint]

Is Faraday scummy because of something that's happened since he replaced in, or for JL?

[Iecerint]

Also, why isn't your DC guilty on your scumlist when the player undermining said DC is? O_o_O

[Iecerint]

Vala was pretty vapid, but she wasn't as vapid as Pom. So if that's all there is, this is a little silly. There was this, though:

Your response just prompted me to re-read my role PM, and it does in fact mention town.

I didn't think much of it at the time, but it's potentially, ye know, damage control.

I liked Phate up until the utterly bizarre massclaim request (quickly retracted) and his continuing to target Faraday. I would normally dispute that FT's providing a "better reason" ("Cops don't matter!") for his continuing support for Farawagon exonerates him, but the fact that's he's claimed CrApple Miller does help him more than it would otherwise.

Phate, why did you originally request a massclaim?

[Iecerint]

(After she's done so, please answer my question.)

[Iecerint]

(After she's done so, please answer my question.)

[Iecerint]

#2. Maybe UK for being slightly dodgy

Dodgy? Could you elaborate?

Because that would be a role based reason to vote him and thusly he's not on my list. And of course anyone who tries to undermine the truth is scummy.

Does your role PM confirm your sanity in such a way that you KNOW it's the truth?

That would take care of my question for you, too, which is whether your flavor implies sanity or whatever accounts for the 99% number.

[Iecerint]

Then why aren't you, ye know, pushing for your presumed-legit guilty on Vaya?

[Iecerint]

w/e bro.

Still waiting on Phate.

[Iecerint]

(I am yelling at everyone post-game when Alma is scum btw.)

[Iecerint]

Nope, I won't yell at anyone if we lynch him later.

Phate has failed to answer my question, even though I reposted it this page. This annoys me, because I think claiming a mass claim on D1 is significant enough that it requires explanation. At first I thought he was holding out because he wanted to see if Pom would elaborate, but that's clearly not the case because he's posted since then, and he didn't even allude to her post.

Unvote; Vote: Phate

.

[Iecerint]

Oh. My bad. Faraday changed his avatar.

Unvote

, I guess. I'm waiting for the Pom/Phate interaction. Phate, please answer why you requested a massclaim when/if you're satisfied that Pom has nothing to add.

[Iecerint]

-_-

[Iecerint]

I am not creative enough to imagine a town role that would actually lead an experienced player to believe that massclaim D1 was advisable. (I will elaborate on this later if asked, but I don't want to do so before Pom addresses Phate's question more fully.) I think Phate's just dodging a question he can't answer.

Vote: Phate

.

[Iecerint]

Pome, you said this yesterday:

I don't have time to explain fully right now (due to my weekly V/LA).

Mass-claim is generally a bad idea in early game because once PRs are outed, then often they're killed soon after. Yes, we can coordinate our night actions better, but it's a trade off, because usually the mafia NK the PRs ASAP. That's the basic reason not to mass-claim early in the game.

1. Is your V/LA finished?
2. Do you intend to explain more fully?

[Iecerint]

EBWOP: 3. Or does that extra sentence indicate the more full explanation. (I'd missed it.)

[Iecerint]

I am currently in 2 mod-abandoned games and 2 waiting-for-a-poster games.

[Iecerint]

In addition to a claim, be sure Pom doesn't get out of her promised-days-ago elaboration.

[Iecerint]

It honestly doesn't look like Pom cares who's lynched, as long as it's not her, she doesn't seem interested in finding scum to me; at all.

I agree with this. However, compare her to Phate, who a) isn't voting at all and b) without pressure, would be voting to lynch you-the-Cop.

Both players are pretty vacuous. Pom, particularly, is useless at best. But Vala/Phate, due to that and the massclaim request, has the added bonus of being scummy.

I'm interested to see what in Phate's role would lead him to advocate massclaim. Someone not currently on the wagon should ask him for the claim, though.

[Iecerint]

My name is actually Iecerint. There are two e's. "Ice" is fine. It's pronounced /jekerInt/, where the e's are epsilons and the I is typically reduced to a schwa.

Hmm. Is a nice post. Particularly, you don't blithely target the alternawagon. Let me respond to your concerns:

His first vote is on Pom "for being late to confirm", a clear random vote

I don't consider it totally random. I think confirming late is a (weak) scumtell, especially if there's a large lag before the final confirm. Granted, it wasn't really that large a lag this time.

I'm not sure I agree with the reasoning [about JL rolefishing], but it is present.

Doublecheck the context. JL calls out Glork for being unhelpful after Glork said he had set-up for information, but wouldn't share it. JL wanted Glork to provide the information.

After the wagon gets to a certain size, he jumps off and onto MafiaSSK. His reason is complete OMGUS.

I 100% dispute this. SSK claimed he had "seen me doing something" as scum in other games (but only after UK prodded him) whereas I have literally never been scum. It looked to me like he was answering in the way least likely to invite controversy. (I think he just assumed I've been scum somewhere.) A lot of those posts are simulposts, which may muddy the context as you read through it, so check that. His explanation is possible, but I'm still not sure. I'd still be going after him if not for his claimed role and the 1/1 it presents; that doesn't seem like a scum thing to do.

Verdict: I find [the vote on SP] very suspicious. It seems to me like he started the JL wagon early on a faulty reason, not anticipating that other players would jump on, then panicked and jumped onto MafiaSSK when it appeared possible that JL would be lynched.

I literally loved the JL wagon. I would still love it if he hadn't been replaced by Faraday and Faraday hadn't claimed Cop. The insanity insinuations are a little annoying, though, I guess.

The next two parts are a little weird, though:

This VOTE: feels completely opportunistic.

This [subsequent vote for Alma] really makes me wonder about the possibility of Ice/Pomscum, but I don't currently think that's the case.

I don't understand. I know you say you don't think it was the case, but are you arguing that I was opportunistically voting my scumbuddy?

In his [for-Alma] vote post, he says that he is "dubiously excluding the UK/SSK/Vaya triumvirate". This is a big contrast from his earlier assertion: "And I trust UK's official information on how to handle the SSK/Vaya situation."

I was feeling a little sketchier toward UK in the aftermath of UK's wagon on me.

It seems tailor-made to give him his choice of targets tomorrow and link those three players in the mind of town.

lolwat? It's not as if I invented the links between those players. They are plainly obvious. They're not scum-scum links, but they're links. Anyway, UK has information she can't share with us; we'll learn more about that tomorrow.

His next vote is for Vaya as a "useless player".

As I recall, I voted Vaya to address SSK's implicit 1/1. This was kinda a continuation of my eroded confidence in UK. If I really just typed that as a reason (did I really?), it was an error on my part.

I think the 100% best lynches today are either Alma or Vaya. Alma is all but claimed scum. We have a guilty on Vaya. But Glork is protecting Alma, and UK is protecting Vaya, and everyone seems pretty content with that. So I'm going with my third-tier scumpick.

[Iecerint]

Whoa. OK. Well. That one was before the three more recent posts.

Well, the good news is that it's clear why you wanted to massclaim, even if it wasn't really for a pro-town reason. It's also clear why you didn't announce your role first, as others have suggested ("I'm associated with WinBlows, but I'm town! And I'm not a Miller!") (Actually, I'm just assuming you're not a Miller.)

Fishy, I'm assuming that your role specifically indicates that you're a Miller? Phate, do you have any flavor that might help us to understand/evaluate your role?

I think any other town players who are affiliated with something that is not pro-free software should claim as much to help us evaluate Phate's claim. Seeing none, I feel OK about lynching a claimed WinBlows-using player.

[Iecerint]

Keeping information secret is part of Mafia. Well-made games are set-up to encourage players to adhere to the spirit of the game. As such, claiming information tends to help scum more than town on average. So it's scummy to try to pull it off.

It's true that mass claiming can sometimes help town, but only when the set-up is breakable. (For that matter, it's arguably better to avoid breaking the set-up in those cases, if only to make a broken game into a playable game.)

Pom taking forever to answer was annoying, I give you that, but I didn't get the sense that she "refused" to answer anything.

[Iecerint]

I see. It sounds like that resembles Alma's claim to an extent, not explicitly wanting to convert notwithstanding. I doubt you're both traitors, which is the other thing I could imagine.

I want to wait for any other non-free software people to claim before I do anything else.

[Iecerint]

Phate, is there flavor context for you being a Cop? Like, are you searching out the nefarious free software people (free software => guilty) or are you lazily seeing who else is forced to deal with inefficient networks (WinBlows => guilty), or is there any indication?

[Iecerint]

K. Thought it couldn't hurt to ask.

[Iecerint]

I don't think we should read too much into Phate's claim without more professed pro-town WBs/Crapple/etc. persons.

This whole [Phateclaim] thing is fairly odd

What do you mean by this?

[Iecerint]

Your first post looked like you were discrediting Phate's post. But then you supported Glork's post in your following post.

If you were just commenting on the course of events being weird, I guess that's not necessarily inconsistent. But that's not how I took it at the time because of the rest of that post.

[Iecerint]

If Phate is truthful but Glork is right, then Phate is functionally WBscum. If Phate is totally making it up, then he is conventionally WBscum. Failing to see WBscum/town scum come out, I think killing Phate is a good option.

[Iecerint]

Iece: But from Phate's perspective, he is protown and everyone else (Crapple/Linux) is scum.

To me, at least, that is irrelevant. I'm neither WBtown nor WBscum. So I think the probability of Phate being a different alignment from me is fairly high.

Do you think we should softclaim what company/entity we're associated with? I think we have this so far:

Faraday -- Google
Alma -- WBuser, but wants to switch to Linux
Phate -- WBadministrator, but wins with town
Fishy -- CrApple

[Iecerint]

I win with the town as well.

Right; I didn't mean to imply you'd claimed otherwise. I wrote it that way because you gave us switchFlavor and Phate hasn't given us anything analogous, really, except that his network is inefficient.

[Iecerint]

I suppose it's Google not getting a cute nickname?

[Iecerint]

Hmm. I suppose I'll just think of it as lynching JL.

Unvote; Vote: Faraday

. Too bad; he's fun to play with.

[Iecerint]

Hmm. That's true. It's even in the rules:

7) Any and all flavor used in this game is present solely for the purpose of entertainment and does not give insight in any way into the setup of this game or alignment of any player.

So Pom may be right.

[Iecerint]

Have the role-swappers said specifically that they change the OS? I can't remember. That would make the Google claim suspect enough to overrule Rule 7 IMO.

[Iecerint]

I was wrong then...I thought it was the fact that there was an easy access list of claims for scum to use, given by Iec.

wat?

I dunno, this feels like a convenient counterwagon to take out a cop and save a scum.

Phate claimed Cop, too. Worst case scenario isn't any different.

[Iecerint]

I think SB followed up by saying something like "Alma, what if I told you that I don't give out free Linux CDs. Should I still target you?" This was around when people started pointing out that Alma had claimed scum without people getting excited about it (or at least was a townie who hadn't considered the potential negative effects of roleswap ^^; ). Could still be that she changes OSes, though. Would like to hear more.

[Iecerint]

SB's elaboration (while unduly extensive, but it's too late for that, etc.) demotes Faraday's claim problem from mechanicfail to flavorfail.

[Iecerint]

Well, counter-argument is that Phate works at MicroSuck, and first post of the game strongly insinuates that they are the anti-town party. I think you can fairly attack either Faraday or Phate on flavor grounds.

Roles are similarly irrelevant, since they claimed the same role. (Phate gets a little more scrutiny IMO since he claimed it later, though.) Did Vala express any concerns about SSK's claim? I think Phate didn't like Faraday's, which fits. On the flipside, JL didn't really complain about or otherwise acknowledge SSK's IIRC.

[Iecerint]

EBWOP: Actually, I think clarification is needed on that point. Phate, does your PM affiliate you with MS?

[Iecerint]

Iec me and Phate didn't claim the same role. Phate and Snow_Bunny have the same role. I guess I should check what Vala thought of snow's role, but she was AWOL for a while but no harm checking.

My mistake. SB originally (way way back) just shared the conversion part of her ability, so I had her role down incorrectly in my head.

It's true that Alma wants to switch his OS, I think.

[Iecerint]

I also think that -- at the very least -- everyone without Linux is some kind of Miller, so we're going to see a lot of "guilties" in this game. My guess is that the cop-roles will get innocents on people of the same OS and guilties on everyone else.

Why do you think Fishy was told he was a Miller, then?

[Iecerint]

It's possible that I'm like a Miller for at least some Cops, as you indicate, but I doubt I'm one in the general case. No indication in my role PM, and I'm associated with GNU.

[Iecerint]

Background question -- on the evilness scale according to free software types, where do people usually put Google? My intuition is something like "better than MS and Apple," but I dun really know.

[Iecerint]

I tried googling it (ha!), but I got hits insinuating both that Google tries to cash in on free software sensibility and that they are legitimately supportive of aspects of the movement.

[Iecerint]

Right; I understand that they promote that image. I'm trying to get an idea of the typical perception by, say, the sort of person who would make OpenSource Mafia, though.

[Iecerint]

Faraday, you're ignoring your predecessor's actions. That isn't the entire case against you.

Phate, the gameplay side of the case against you is that Vala was pretty innocuous and you requested massclaim and wanted to lynch Faraday (though that last isn't quite as sketchy now that we know you had reason to find Cop claims a priori suspicious).

[Iecerint]

K. Mr. Mod <3s Google a lot and posts something about them mentioning use of the Linux kernel with Chrome.

A bad linux is better than a good winblows. If Crapple wasn't to hardware and application development what Microsuck is to software, Mac wouldn't be so bad. I despise a Mac keyboard though, the trash is a good place for one!!

We should remember that Faraday's role is actually (as far as I can tell) a proper noun or something . I should note that while my PM doesn't indicate a specific name (i.e. I'm defined relative to my association with GNU and am not mentioned by name), I get the impression that it is based on a specific individual. So I kinda see Faraday's as potentially analogous to mine, except that I'm associated with a free software operating system and he's associated with a free software-friendly company. Since we also have from SB and Phate that there's no explicit evidence that OS is a game mechanic, I think Faraday's claim is fine on flavor/mechanics grounds.

I am sympathetic to people who weren't crazy about JL, though, or who find the asymmetry of his Cop role unsettling.

[Iecerint]

4) If a deadline is reached and a majority has not been achieved, the person with the most votes will be lynched. If two or more persons have an equal number of votes at that time, the player who reached that total first will be lynched.

It looks like we don't run a risk of NoLynch, but I'd still like to have everyone with a vote on someone come deadline.

[Iecerint]

I've given a little more thought to what my PM implies and what the Mod has said about Google. I'm going to

Unvote; Vote: Phate

.

It's true that the number of WB players (Glork, Alma, Phate, etc.) who have already claimed imply that WB players are probably not all scum. However, I think a WB player who converts players is more likely to have an objectionable alignment. Also, it would surprise me if both of SB and Phate have a pro-town modus operandi. Of the two, I think SB is more likely to be on the free software side. So I think that makes Phate look bad, whereas there is no analogous player to make Faraday look guilty by comparison.

I don't really find Faraday's reactionary response to the wagon particularly unsettling, either. I would do the same thing in his circumstances, and I have in the past. Refer to my performance in my very first game on this site for a typical example, or to my behavior earlier this game. I do agree that JL was a pretty scummy player, but Vala was innocuous enough to be nearly-as-scummy, too, so it's not like that establishes a huge contrast IMO. Faraday's find implies that Phate probably isn't lying about his role, but (think UK mentioned this) that's only slightly relevant, as he didn't exactly claim a role with an a priori townie alignment.

I think this puts both Faraday and Phate at 4 votes. If I'm not mistaken, this means that Faraday will be lynched at 7 PM if nothing else changes. I strongly encourage those who have not voted one of these two players to vote one of them or indicate why they think both of these players are town. SSK and Alma come to mind.

[Iecerint]

We have to explicitly vote NoLynch to have a NoLynch. I just posted this on the previous page. Are you reading the thread?

Nice that you picked, though.

[Iecerint]

I think that's only 6 votes, unless I'm missing someone, and there are still 30 minutes. Uncommitted players are welcome to make better-late-than-never wagon choices.

[Iecerint]

If that's the case, does the kill flavor indicate that Glork was a traitor, that there are 2 scumteams, or that Glork was lying about his OSalignment?

Vote: Alma

.

Glork's flip removes Alma from wait-and-see status. Check Glork's iso for the consistent defense of Alma, save a late, very temporary vote once a wagon had built up. (He justifies the quick unvote by Alma's numbers post.)

Excited to hear what UK has to say about SSK/Vaya, though.

[Iecerint]

Since I got neither, and in fact, no result at all, I can tell you nothing about Vaya OR SSK. Hence why I want a fullclaim. I could go for a Vaya lynch.

Is it possible that you were roleblocked, or did the flavor imply specifically that your ability was incompatible with SSK's role?

[Iecerint]

Can you ask the Mod for confirmation on that point?

Glork supported Vaya much more than SSK, but he sometimes did it to really absurd degrees --

I love Vaya's posting so far. I really do. Many of his thoughts eerily parallel my own, and he's actually digging into the crux of why I voted Pom to begin with. He's very vote-hoppy right now (three vote changes between Posts 356 and 375), but that's not a point against his alignment.

He also tended to attack SSK over Vaya --

Even if this were a NORMAL game, if a player came out D1 and seriously said they had role-based information to make them 99% certain, you'd want that information out as soon as possible. If SSK is telling the truth and his information can be trusted, we'd be guaranteed a result. If SSK thinks he's telling the truth but his information cannot be trusted, we can gain valuable information about the bastardly nature of the game. If SSK is bullshitting us, we're passing up a golden opportunity to put a scumbag under the microscope on D1.

I'm going to side with Vaya here (SOUND THE MUTUAL BUDDYING ALARMS) and point out what's wrong with SSK's behavior.
1) SSK is claiming to be 99% certain of another player's alignment on D1 of a bastard game. This is... extremely curious to say the least, and I'm not willing to buy into it at all without knowing what can make him so certain of that information in this particular game. Any number of things could go wrong with this. Millers. Death Millers. Cop sanity issues. Changing alignments. Redirections. Scum Protections/Abilities. "Insane" Doctors.

2) SSK claims to have important information but won't reveal it because he doesn't want to be made a target by the scums. I can't even begin to explain how terrible play this is. If the day were to end right here and now, with pseudo-information claimed, that puts SSK at the

MOST

risk of getting nightkilled (if indeed he is legit). Why? Because A) potential Docs/Jailkeepers/Etc. don't know whether they should be protecting him; and B) The Scums can send important information (whether it is accurate or not) to the grave with SSK.
--I don't want anybody to answer this in-game, but I have two rhetorical question for each of you to ponder, given what SSK has said and given the nature of the game: If you were a Doctor, would you be inclined to protect him tonight? If you were Scum, and knew/believed/assumed SSK was not part of your group, would you be inclined to kill SSK tonight?

I'm not saying that I think SSK is scum. Nor am I saying that I think Vaya is town. Fact is, I don't know what either one is (or even what they *might* be), and I'm concerned that some players are being very headstrong, assuming that a pile of partial "information" will give them clarity in what is very clearly a complex game.

He's not being at all subtle in the Vaya defense, which is odd. (Maybe that last paragraph is intended to moderate the defense a little bit.) Still, I have an easier time believing that he is scumfriends with Vaya than with SSK.

Unvote; Vote: Vaya

If SSK is scum, I think there may be two scumteams (Winusers and MSpersons).

[Iecerint]

Anyone out there who incidentally messed up on the formatting and has confirmation that their ability worked? Because that would let us rule out that explanation, etc.

[Iecerint]

On another note, to the people voting me, don't you think that in a game with four cops claims so far, and a claimed sanity checker, that some cops are going to have sanity issues and that simply getting a guilty on you is pretty null?

I agree with you, but that's not the only reason why I'm voting you at this point. I'm voting you (or, at least, differentiating you from SSK) predominantly for Glork's interaction with you and with SSK.

Phate, reread the flavor in the death scene. MicroSuckpersons killed GlorkScum. Either Glork is a ("WinBlows Loyalist") traitor and scum did us a favor, or Glork belongs to a rival scumgroup and scum still sorta did us a favor. I think it's unlikely that a town-aligned MicroSuck-flavored vig killed him (pro-town MicroSuck people would've come out during discussion of the Google claim). It could be that the flavor is not reflective of what happened N1, but that would transcend "oddness" of setup and become kinda silly.

It IS possible that he was a Death Miller -- he mentions death millers in one of his old posts; I noticed it while I was looking through his posts for SSK/Vaya interactions -- but I think allusions like that are about as likely to come from scum as from genuine death millers, anyway.

I honestly misread the VC. It was a pretty epic misread, though. I sent the Mod a PM with a funny face after the Mod scene was posted. O_O

[Iecerint]

Phate, I think I understand why you want a massclaim. There is more to it than meets the eye.

Does this tell you what you need to know? Do you still want a massclaim?

I would appreciate your temporary discretion on the issue, and I am not requesting it trivially.

[Iecerint]

Until it catches scum, or at least until it rules some players out. SB's action has limited its effectiveness if I claim it today, and its ability to do so will be compromised if it's out in the open.

[Iecerint]

To clarify -- are you still really excited about a massclaim, even after that loaf of bread, or are you just anxious to hear the rest of the story?

[Iecerint]

SB, given my interpretation of Phate's behavior today, I think it is highly probable that you are sane.

[Iecerint]

EBWOP: If Phate is scum, it probably has nothing to do with your sanity. Rather, if Phate is scum, he is mega-Godfather scum, AND a good actor.

[Iecerint]

SP, please interpret the N1 kill flavor and the alignment-flips so far for me.

[Iecerint]

Maybe I'm biased, but I don't think that Glork's interaction and 'buddying' with me is more likely to be scum to scum than it is scum to town. Scum side with people they know are town all the time, and Glork-scum would have plenty of motive to side with me-town like this. It makes him look good not pushing the mislynch if I were lynched and I flipped town, and on the off-chance he would die first, his interaction with me could help incriminate me and help my lynch along.

I agree with you if you and SSK are both town (e.g. SSK is an insane daycop, and UK was roleblocked), but I disagree with you if we're operating under the assumption that one of you is scum. Not that that's an impossibility.

I LITERALLY HAD NOT THOUGHT OF THE ALMA BREADCRUMB. AMAZING.

Unvote; Vote: Alma

.

[Iecerint]

Her anguish is brought on by watching the

members of the Evil Empire, armed with MicroSuck Shitsta Home Edition laptops,

surround

Glork -

Guilty

and pound him into submission with sales pitches of how much better Shitsta is than XPOS. She sobs quietly as the realization sets in that she will be unable to kill Glork herself in this game.

Phate, I think this is why. Told ye to read the kill flavor.