Mini 897 - OpenSource Mafia - Game over!!

[Pomegranate]

/yo

[Pomegranate]

Vote: Almaster

.

Cuz he confirm strange.[/b]

[Pomegranate]

How helpful Glork is!

[Pomegranate]

Vote: Josh Lyman

Literally the only person's name I don't at least recognize despite being new to mafiascum (not mafia in general). Clearly this is indicative of his alignment. Somehow.

You recognize my name? Wooh!

[Pomegranate]

What happened to RVS?

[Pomegranate]

Oh. Well, I guess it's inevitable.

[Pomegranate]

What 'other one'?

No.

[Pomegranate]

No.

[Pomegranate]

About SB's ability:

It sounds like it could be a cult that

can

recruit mafia.

It also sounds like it could be what she says it is.

But why would the mafia claim? I think that was obviously an unreasonable request from SB, because from all that's known, she might not have an ability. So I'd be surprised if scum actually claim or anything.

Also, I'm waiting to hear what Glork has gotten from the mod.

[Pomegranate]

But why would the mafia claim? I think that was obviously an unreasonable request from SB, because from all that's known, she might not have an ability. So I'd be surprised if scum actually claim or anything.

Honestly, scum strategy here should be have their weakest member claim, see what S_B does. If it's a trap, they lost a weak member that would probably die anyway. If it's real, they'll find out D2 and the others can come out, thusly creating a happy ending for all.

Then again, maybe I just like taking the easy way out, and that the mafia would rather actually play the game.

That makes a lot of sense, but I'd be surprised if it actually happened. This whole claim is very sketchy, and they might not want to risk it.

[Pomegranate]

I think it would take a pretty clueless player to claim scum in response to a move like that from SK. Now that Pome has pointed that out for everyone, it would take a 100% clueless player. The trade-off is that it lets us publicly evaluate SK's claim without the awkwardness of nullifying SK's potential town gambit, but I think she should have at least given everyone more of a chance to post first.

Also, I dunno why she thinks that SK could be Cult-Leader-recruiting-mafia. Seeing that scum presumably knows scum, that seems like an impossible/difficult mechanic to balance. Could be that recruits become like Traitors, I guess, but that doesn't seem like a very default thesis to me.

I would vote her, but I am busy voting JL. <_<

I never suggested a scumteam with cult recruitment mechanics.

[Pomegranate]

About SB's ability:

It sounds like it could be a cult that

can

recruit mafia.

I was referring to this.

I know.

I suggested it because I was throwing out ideas from SB's claim. I can't think of how it would work though. UK made a suggestion though.

[Pomegranate]

Oh, and that reminds me:

I will always be V/LA Friday afternoon to Saturday evening.

[Pomegranate]

Use it on me, please. This is not a joke.

Is this a scum claim? I just would like to be clear on it.

Same.

This has the potential to be awesome.

[Pomegranate]

Is SK some variant of SB?

[Pomegranate]

Not exactly. Perhaps I am interpreting the rhetoric "alignment change" differently then you based on the information I have. I win with the town, but I am currently stuck using the suck that is WinBlows. I would like to convert to the greatness that is Linux. That is what I suspect S_B may be able to do.

Ah, yes, I think you need to be targetted tonight.

You have to be converted before you can win, correct?

That would make sense. Put an "alignment" (if the case is that he needs to be targeted) changer in the game, as well as a role that needs it. Interesting role interaction.

But if it works correctly on Alm, would it also work on scum?

[Pomegranate]

SSK's claim is kind of odd for D1, but ATM I believe him, following this reasoning:

I think SSK would be insane to be going for a gambit this early in the game, especially on Vaya, who hasn't really provided enough information to read him. I grant, this is not his fault, but still a fact to consider.

So right now I'm more inclined to follow SSK, and if Vaya were to flip scum, great. If he were to flip town, SSK would be our obvious lynch target tomorrow.

[Pomegranate]

Here's what I'd like, if at all possible

Vaya and SSK do NOT get lynched today.
SSK, do NOT fullclaim today.
Any protective role that exists, please protect SSK from kills.
I think D2 will be quite fruitful.

Before it's asked, yes, I have official reasons to believe this is the best course of action.

I'll go with this, based especially on the last sentence.

---

Iec, your vote is suspicious. The third vote on a bandwagon/in a row is a tad scummy. It's not very scummy- I'm just throwing this out there.

[Pomegranate]

I simulposted with Vaya.

Oh, makes sense with the timestamps, I guess.

Actually, I've been accused of the same thing (putting down a third vote quickly, while meaning to put sown the second).

[Pomegranate]

Well, good that's cleared up, I got extremely confused.

[Pomegranate]

Blatant fence-sit.

Thanks, captain obvious... >_>

I'm not sure how I feel about UK's plan re. Vaya and SSK. Taken at face value it seems like a great idea, but if UK is scum with Vaya and knows Vaya has some super awesome power role, it could be a bad idea to keep Vaya alive.

From what we know, it seems like the best plan. Do you think we should lynch one of them today.

On the other hand, there's the possibility that SB could flip Vaya to town if she really is scum, which alone would be enough to justify risking keeping her alive.

The problem is that we don't know whether Vaya is scum or not. It could be a lot worse for us if Vaya was switched from town to scum.

I'm not saying this specifically about Vaya. What if SB switched a townie to scum? We have to be careful. SB's role is not entirely clear.[/quote]

[Pomegranate]

I remember Twilight Mafia... that was my first game....

[Pomegranate]

I don't think we should lynch Vaya today. And I don't think that there's a pressing need for UK to claim today.

[Pomegranate]

I don't think we should lynch Vaya today. And I don't think that there's a pressing need for UK to claim today.

That's all fine and dandy, but which players do you think are most likely to be scummy scum scums, and why?

You've done depressingly little

actual scumhunting

, IMO.

Unvote, Vote: Pomegranate

I find it hard to do good scumhunting D1, but I try. I usually work based somewhat off of wagons, lynches, NKs (not as much), and flips. It might be harder in this game, as it's only partial reveal, but I'll manage.

I'll try to do more now, though.

[Pomegranate]

I see.

By "try", I mean that I'll hopefully get a decent post up tomorrow after school.

[Pomegranate]

This post does not have as much content as I'd like it to, but in general my posts will hopefully be taking a turn for the better.

@Fishy-

@Fishy: Can you elaborate in your own words why you think a Vaya/Iec team is likely? Do you have anything to add to SP's thoughts on the matter?

Not much. While I dislike just using another player's argument, I find it very convincing - Iec's play reads like someone trying to derail the Vaya wagon, with his suspicions of SSK, subsequent attacks on SSK over the misremembering issue (which I still don't buy. The picture Iec is trying to sell is of SSK deciding to randomly throw out an accusation of defending buddies, and hoping it's true. I don't see anyone being that stupid), and his easy acceptance of UK's claim. The only thing I'd add is that I believed SSK was telling the truth, and I think that was the natural reaction (unprompted scum claims on day 1 just don't seem very likely)- so I find Iec's disbelief quite hard to swallow. Less relevantly, I feel similarly about his reaction to SB's claim.

Do you think Iec and SSK could both be scum, and this could just be aggressive distancing/bussing?

@VMD- I think it's definitely most likely that we have a scumteam in this game, though it's a bastard game. I think that's the general consensus.

@Iec- I played Twilight Mafia badly; hopefully my scumhunting has improved since then (I'm bad at judging it myself).

Pre-post edit: I can't make a post better than this ATM, because I'm having trouble with the site, and I can't set up a separate window to look at more posts. I'm sorry, hopefully it will clear up very soon.

[Pomegranate]

Pom, use word then. You have no excuse not to make a better post than that. In fact, for pressure

unvote vote Pom

I guess I should have been more clear: I had started the post, but later I was having dome problems with MS. I couldn't follow any links, and could not go back to the actual game page, and could only mention what I remembered from reading the thread, and from Topic Review. Making my post on a Word Document wouldn't have helped any.

Pome, if you could list your most recently-completed games as town and scum, that would be nice.

All my completed games are on my wiki, complete with roles and links to the games.

My point here is that we should lynch scummy people, not play follow-the-cop (or any other role, for that matter).

Me wonders why not. I mean, it was such a successful tactic for town that they had to come with an alternative (macho cops and roleblockers) so the game wouldn't be unbalanced.

Well, regarding this game specifically, follow the cop is definitely a bad idea. It's a bastard game.

The reason I'm torn is one of her comments though:

I'll try to do more

now

, though.

I don't like the 'now'. This implies that since she got called out on it, only 'now' will she start trying to be useful and productive, but before, she wouldn't have.

Look at the sentence this way: You say I haven't done much

up until this point

, and I see that you argument makes sense , so

I'll try to do more

[from]

now

[on].

The underline explains why I used the word now, and the bold shows the original sentence.

Also, I don't want to be judged that much on my age and sex. Yes, I'm thirteen, but I wouldn't have joined the site if I didn't think I was ready. I did have mafia experience before I joined. I disagree with this post:

Shes a 13 year old girl in school with an older sister on the site. Pressure and people hounding her might be a bit overwhelming to the average 13 year old.

SSK explains what I mean:

Don't stereotype kids as wimps.

Your case on me is bad because I am always concerned about how I'm perceived (for good reasons that I have already indicated). Also, your two non-Vaya points contradict one another as you're applying them. The first implies that I *should* vote my conscience, appearances be damned, while the second point is derived from Pome's assertion that 3rd votes are scummy. (Hadn't noticed the second bit before.)

Unlike UK, I don't find it scummy when people are meticulous about how they appear. I think that everyone needs some element of it, because without it, I think there would be more mislynches based on votehopping, false connections, and backpedaling.

How is it derived from that? And that's a false dichotomy. They aren't contradictory. You shouldn't worry about appearances, but you should always be pro town. It's not something you force though. Don't hold back from an action because you think it might be perceived badly. But make sure it does some good for the town. I hope that makes sense.

If you're always pro-town then you will probably be percieved well. But what about someone with a playstyle like Tubby: He does it to guage reactions, as he stated:

i found its a great tool in judgeing aligments if town and flushing power roles as scum.

in a thread about his playstyle. Does that mean it's always the best thing to do? He is often mislynched because of it, even though he is trying to scumhunt and be pro-town in his own way.

SP your case makes no fricken sense.

I shouldn't answer for SP, but in this case, he's not making a case on me, he's trying to mindfuck me. I actually could argue that's a little scummy, because if you are town, what's the point of trying to throw off the calibration of someone else's scumhunting?

I think he's trying to show that you can't judge every player 100% by his/her gameplay, and that you should take other things into account. He's explaining why he's evaluating me a bit differently than other players. Idon't agree with it, but I understand it.

[Pomegranate]

Unlike UK, I don't find it scummy when people are meticulous about how they appear. I think that everyone needs some element of it, because without it, I think there would be more mislynches based on votehopping, false connections, and backpedaling.

I've found that when I stopped caring, I got lynched a lot less. I think sometimes people overcompensate and it comes off as scummy.

Sometimes. But does that mean they're scum?

If you're always pro-town then you will probably be percieved well. But what about someone with a playstyle like Tubby: He does it to guage reactions, as he stated:

tubby is an interesting case. That's where meta comes into play.

Yeah, I guess my example wasn't the best. I hope you got the feeble point though.

[Pomegranate]

Sometimes. But does that mean they're scum?

I think that scum are more likely to care about how they are perceived than town.

Obviously. But I think that in general, many townies do too, and I don't find a case comprised of that and following bandwagons, which townies also do, very convincing.

[Pomegranate]

Hmm... let's see...

Top scum pick: Alm.

At first glance, this may seem like OMGUS. But it's not, and let me explain why.

His vote is on me now for lurking. But so far this game, I've made 29 posts, while he's only made 23. Now, that obviously doesn't mean much, as he put it earlier-

It's a quality, not a quantiity issue.

But most of Alm's posts are short comments or questions based on snippets of quotes. That could be useful if they were good scumhunting questions, and he actually commented on the answers. But he doesn't. He'll ask a question, but I can't tell why, because he doesn't do anything with/based off of the answers, nor do they generate any real content. Moreover, the questions look like he's posting them only so that it seems like he's actually doing something, even though he isn't much.

Some examples:

Eh, why not

Unvote, Vote AlmasterGM

for being lazy and not, yanno, scumhunting.

LOL.

While Vaya does often lurk D1, I think that in this instance it correlates with general inactivity on the site. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

I don't think it has anything to do with D1 - in the last game I played with her, she was scum and lurked to victory. Moreover, even if it is D1 only, how is this even remotely acceptable?

I don't think we should lynch Vaya today. And I don't think that there's a pressing need for UK to claim today.

Ok, so what should we be doing?

Ugh. On one hand, I think Pom is probably the best lynch candidate for today. But on the other hand, those are three really quick votes.

I agree that the day probably should last longer, but letting up pressure right now is a poor plan, especially given Pom's most recent badposting.

Also, often he will merely agree with a post, and not actually scumhunt:

I agree with Glork on the lack of content issue. In addition, this excuse is particuarily bad because it is extremely generic and doesn't even apply to this game at all - there's been plenty to analyze thus far. Get to it.

And look at this:

Theory discussion usually distracts from actual scumhunting.

Yet three of Alm's precious few posts are about a potential cop:

Public Service Announcement:

In this game, it is a terrible idea to assume that someone is not a miller simply because they have not claimed miller. Claiming miller on another day is not a scum tell. If you are an investigative role and you got a guilty, it is highly likely that your result is wrong.

That is all.

My point here is that we should lynch scummy people, not play follow-the-cop (or any other role, for that matter).

Me wonders why not. I mean, it was such a successful tactic for town that they had to come with an alternative (macho cops and roleblockers) so the game wouldn't be unbalanced.

If you're in a mini-normal with a confirmed sane cop, then sure, it's not a bad plan (although even then it's dangerous, thanks to the possibility of a Godfather). This isn't a mini-normal. It's a theme game with lots of bastard modding. While this doesn't mean we ignore cops entirely, it does mean we take what they have to say with a grain of salt.

Alm's largest posts are the ones explaining his flavor, and why he may have to be converted. No actual scumhunting:

That was a serious post. I can change a player's alignment during night. Only one per night, though. I was thinking that it was easy to create a happy ending if mafia just outed themselves and I turned them into town. As UK said, you can test it with your weakest member.

Use it on me, please. This is not a joke.

Use it on me, please. This is not a joke.

Is this a scum claim? I just would like to be clear on it.

It is NOT a scum claim. However, based on the flavor and rules text of my role PM, I believe S_B's ability, if it actually exists, will function on me.

It is NOT a scum claim. However, based on the flavor and rules text of my role PM, I believe S_B's ability, if it actually exists, will function on me.

Then, may I assume you are third party and want your alignment changed to town?

Because, as far as I can tell, s_b's ability will change your alignment completely, regardless of what you start at.

Not exactly. Perhaps I am interpreting the rhetoric "alignment change" differently then you based on the information I have. I win with the town, but I am currently stuck using the suck that is WinBlows. I would like to convert to the greatness that is Linux. That is what I suspect S_B may be able to do.

Or I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

You have to be converted before you can win, correct?

My role PM doesn't explicitly say that. It merely says WinBlows sucks and it would be much cooler if I were using Linux. I inferred from this that something good for me and/or the town would happen if I was converted. It could just be flavor, but given S_B's role, I don't think that's the case.

Hmm... I'm not sure. Your reasons may be right, but what if I turn you to scum?

I don't know the precise rules text and flavor of your role so I'm not sure exactly what will happen, but a town-->scum switch doesn't really seem to fit with the flavor of the game. It would make significantly more sense for each faction to be attempting to recruit players to its side, especially given what my role PM says. Do what you think is best, though.

In any case, though, I'm afraid this debacle is destracting us from scumhunting. Let's not let all the discussion focus on this one particular issue.

Fun fact: Vaya still hasn't posted. I like my current vote.

tl;dr: Almaster is acting very hypocritical regarding posting content, and IIoA.

Vote:AlmasterGM

.

[Pomegranate]

Pom, your post is just a super extended OMGUS. Being hypocritical is not a scumtell. IIoA is outdated.

Did you actually read the post?

[Pomegranate]

Pom, your post is just a super extended OMGUS. Being hypocritical is not a scumtell. IIoA is outdated.

Did you actually read the post?

Yeah, you gave how he was hypocritical about posting little content. I am saying that you were mainly focusing on him being hypocritical and not on him lurking.

I said that he lurked,

and

that he called people out on lurking, which was hypocritical.

[Pomegranate]

Top scum pick: Alm.

At first glance, this may seem like OMGUS. But it's not, and let me explain why. [...]

Also, there is more to the case. It still doesn't seem like you've actually read it.

[Pomegranate]

Top scum pick: Alm.

At first glance, this may seem like OMGUS. But it's not, and let me explain why. [...]

Also, there is more to the case. It still doesn't seem like you've actually read it.

So you admit you're being hypocritical by your own logic?

Not really. But I see how you could think so bit.

But according to your own logic,

Being hypocritical is not a scumtell.

The only other part of your case is IIoA which as I've already stated is outdated.

Why?

[Pomegranate]

Top scum pick: Alm.

At first glance, this may seem like OMGUS. But it's not, and let me explain why. [...]

Also, there is more to the case. It still doesn't seem like you've actually read it.

So you admit you're being hypocritical by your own logic?

Not really. But I see how you could think so bit.

But according to your own logic,

Being hypocritical is not a scumtell.

Yes, but that's my own logic. But by your own it seems you think hypocrisy is a scumtell and you're thus calling yourself scum.

I'm getting tired with this. If you can explain why the other points of my case aren't valid, then I will try to explain them.

The only other part of your case is IIoA which as I've already stated is outdated.

Why?

It's an old wikitell and meta has changed from such.[/quote]

Not as far as I know. I still see it around as an accusation.

Also, I need to go to sleep.

[Pomegranate]

But most of Alm's posts are short comments or questions based on snippets of quotes. That could be useful if they were good scumhunting questions, and he actually commented on the answers. But he doesn't. He'll ask a question, but I can't tell why, because he doesn't do anything with/based off of the answers, nor do they generate any real content. Moreover, the questions look like he's posting them only so that it seems like he's actually doing something, even though he isn't much.

1) This entire case is hypocritical because you're calling me out for exactly what you're doing. According to your own logic, you should be your number one suspect. Basically, what MafiaSSK said.

I was asked to state my top suspect. I thought about it, then looked through the player list again. I found you to be the scummiest. Let's see why:

2) Your snippits aren't even good evidence. All the posts are very reasonable and are looking for scum. Let's review

"LOL" - In response to an addmitted bad vote.

K.

"I don't think it has anything to do with D1 - in the last game I played with her, she was scum and lurked to victory. Moreover, even if it is D1 only, how is this even remotely acceptable?" - I'm analyzing current play versus past play and explaining why Vaya is a good lynch.

This is pushing a policy lynch. There are different opinions about policy lynching, and mine is that it's not good. Vaya almost always lurks, whether she's town or scum. The fact that she lurked to victory in another game doesn't mean that she's a good D1 lynch for us.

"Ok, so what should we be doing?" - I'm asking you a legitimate question which you took DAYS to answer. And your answer is this bad case. Fancy that.

It seemed a lot more like, "I don't really know what to do right now, so asking a question of what to do now is a good idea. It even looks like scumhunting." The fact that you didn't give an opinion about what to do yourself makes it scummier.

Like this posts. You said VMD was fence-sitting, which she was. But the fact that you yourself didn't give an opinion... you may as well have fence-sat yourself.

Wait, are you

sure

you get confirmation that the alignment was successfully changed? Did the PM state so outright? This

is

a bastard game, after all.

Still waiting on a reply to this from S_B. Just sayin'.

I prefer not to take a side on the SP/Vaya thing just yet; neither particularly jumps out at me at this time. I realize it's page 7, but I still feel like not much of note has happened.

Blatant fence-sit.

"I agree that the day probably should last longer, but letting up pressure right now is a poor plan, especially given Pom's most recent badposting." - Once again, I'm stating what I think we should do today and why. How is this scummy?

In this post you use the term 'once again'. When was the first time you said what you thought we shoud do?

You're basically saying that, because I'm not posting text walls, I'm scummy. I beg to differ. Text walls are tl;dr. There's nothing wrong with the way I'm posting.

There's nothing wrong with posting comments in response to snippets, if you actually post content. An example of this is UK.

Also, often he will merely agree with a post, and not actually scumhunt:

1) So all my posts have to contain 100% original content? That's absurd.
2) You say I do it "often," but you only have one quote to back it up. So what you really meant to say was "one time." Hmm.

No, I'm pretty sure there were a couple more times, but I just didn't include them.

Alm says theory bad but argues theory.

Every single one of my "theory" posts is talking about how we shouldn't rely too much on theory and should focus on scumhunting. I don't see how that's inconsistent or bad. You argument essentially says that telling someone murder is bad is the same as murder. LOL.

I think a better analogy to what I'm saying is that explaining to someone that murder is bad by murdering and showing what happens is as bad as average murder.

All my big posts are speculation.

So what? It was important to discuss, especially given the theme setup.

K. But I still found that there wasn't much actual scumhunting going on.

tl;dr: Almaster is acting very hypocritical regarding posting content, and IIoA.

So are you. I consider this a concession of your own guilt. Every argument here applies to you as well, except I'm actually doing stuff whereas you haven't done anything except try to say I'm not doing anything either. My vote stays. I suggest other people vote for you as well.

And if you read through my case, and this post, you can see that I'm not just being hypocritical.

[Pomegranate]

I've been fairly busy recently, and I'm sorry for the lack of recent activity.

Pome, what do you make of Alma's request for alignment change, and do you think that affects how we should treat Alma? If so, how?

I don't think SB should target Alm tonight. I think she should either target the person she finds scummiest, or no one at all. I don't think we should treat Alma differently based off of what Alm has said so fer about his role.

You brought up interactions between SB and Alm. I hadn't thought about it, because I don't usually start looking at connections until D2, when there is information. But in the light of the information we have, examining connections could be of more use than usual for D1. Hopefully I will have time to get to it soon.

[Pomegranate]

I don't think SB should target Alm tonight. I think she should either target the person she finds scummiest, or no one at all. I don't think we should treat Alma differently based off of what Alm has said so fer about his role.

...what? You are currently voting for me. Doesn't that mean you think I'm the scummiest player, and should thus be targeted by SB?

Her role is very complicated. And I think you're scummy, and maybe she should target you tonight. But I think that not using her action, if possible, would be best, for N1. By "the person she finds scummiest", I meant that we can't control SB's target, and it's ultimately up to her, and we can't control that.

IMHO, if she targets someone, it should be you. But I don't think she should target anyone tonight. So I don't think she should target you.

[Pomegranate]

Her role is very complicated.

How do you know what her role does?

I don't. I mean something like what you said here:

The way I initially viewed her role seemed to mesh perfectly with mine, but now that she's clarifying, things are becoming more complicated and less perfect.

That it's not entirely clear.

IMHO, if she targets someone, it should be you. But I don't think she should target anyone tonight. So I don't think she should target you.

So you're doing a complete 180 on your previous advocacy. Ok.

More Pomegranate votes, please.

The first post in questiont:

I don't think SB should target Alm tonight.

The second posts in question:

So I don't think she should target you [Alm][tonight].

What 180?

[Pomegranate]

You left out the rest of your post.

I don't think SB should target Alm tonight.

I think she should either target the person she finds scummiest, or no one at all.

Your intentions are much less clear when put into context. I don't think that post suggests at ALL that you are 100% against SB using her power. Why not just say "I don't think she should use her power."? It's extremely confusing, especially given this:

IMHO,

if

she targets someone, it should be you.

But you're also taking things out of context, like the last quote of mine in the quote of yours above. That right before this line:

But I don't think she should target anyone tonight. So I don't think she should target you.

I'll explain myself for a second time, stating my opinions for the third time:

1.

I don't think SB should target anyone tonight.

2.

Obviously, that's her decision. It can't be made for her.

3.

I think that if SB chooses

not to

follow

1.

, then she should target you.

***

My top choice of what SB should do with her action tonight is

1.

: target no one.

Clear now?

[Pomegranate]

The case on Pome is that she is not a very energetic scumhunter.

But for anyone who knows my meta, I don't scumhunt energetically.

Pom's post against Alma feels like mere deflection. She may even believe that it's not truly OMGUS, but it's still her stammering and going "look at this guy" immediately after someone said "she's never actually made a firm case or voted anyone."

Possibly you missed it while catching up, but I was asked who I found scummiest, and why. My answer was Alm, thus I proceeded to make a case on him.

This wagon makes absolutely zero sense. I made that claim more than 10 pages ago and it's becoming a wagon NOW? And started by Pomegranate no less, who has been incredibly scummy up until a page ago (and is still scummy, IMO). Ridiculous. I have never claimed scum. I'm town. I speculated SB's ability might work on me. Turns out, after clarification, it probably won't. Do I find this incredibly suspicious on SB's part? Yes. Given her vote for me despite the possibility of conversion and the fact that her denial does not fit with flavor, I think it's highly possible SB is lying. Regardless, the point is as follows: I stated my position on speculation up front. I have never changed my story once. There is nothing scummy about what I have done.

Moreover, lets stop and think - even if I AM scum (which I am not), why the hell wouldn't you just use SB on me? That way, we get rid of the "claimed" scum AND get to lynch someone scummy. Win-win. There are NO downsides.

There are actual scummy posts and people in this game. Lynching me today is outright stupid.

Regarding this post, 'specially the italicized: But we don't

know

if you're scum. The downside is you being town and misinterpreting your flavor, therefore causing SB to target you, and turn you into scum.

[Pomegranate]

Regarding this post, 'specially the italicized: But we don't know if you're scum. The downside is you being town and misinterpreting your flavor, therefore causing SB to target you, and turn you into scum.

So the alternative is to lynch me?? If you don't think I'm scummy enough for SB to target me at night, I don't think you should have your vote on me.

In this game, I don't

know

anyone's alignment but my own. I

suspect

you are scum, and my opinion is that you are most likely to be scum. But I wouldn't risk converting you to scum, thus losing a townie, and adding another scumbag. I don't think the potential reward outweighs the risk.

[Pomegranate]

The case on Pome is that she is not a very energetic scumhunter.

But for anyone who knows my meta, I don't scumhunt energetically.

I'm not saying that this is an excuse, but I usually procrastinatein regard to scumhunting. If you'd like, you can meta me. I have links to all my games on my wiki page.

[Pomegranate]

I think that Alma has a clause in his role PM very similar to mine, and I have reason to believe that another player might have a similar clause as well. That is enough for me to keep Alma (and that other player) alive until tomorrow, when we'll have a little more information to share.

[Pomegranate]

Sorry, that got messed up.

I think that Alma has a clause in his role PM very similar to mine, and I have reason to believe that another player might have a similar clause as well. That is enough for me to keep Alma (and that other player) alive until tomorrow, when we'll have a little more information to share.

I can't tell from this post whether or not you have any idea who this player is. Some parts make me think that you do, and some that you don't. If you want to clarify that'd be awesome. If not, okay.

[Pomegranate]

Also, Josh, claim or die.

Also, this.

[Pomegranate]

Where's JL anyway?

[Pomegranate]

Oh, and that reminds me:

I will always be V/LA Friday afternoon to Saturday evening.

Well, I won't be around after I submit this. Seeya tomorrow!

[Pomegranate]

I might hammer after the claim, depending. But it is taking way too long.

[Pomegranate]

Usually, brewing a good claim takes time. Just saying.

SB: Did you mean:

Usually, brewing a good claim takes time.

OR

Usually, brewing a good fakeclaim takes time.

Because the second one is true, and the first one is too, but not as strongly. That's why JL lurking more isn't doing him or anyone any good.

[Pomegranate]

Usually, brewing a good claim takes time. Just saying.

SB: Did you mean:

Usually, brewing a good claim takes time.

OR

Usually, brewing a good fakeclaim takes time.

Because the second one is true, and the first one is too, but not as strongly. That's why JL lurking more isn't doing him or anyone any good.

I meant the second.

Yeah, I agree, and that's why the longer he lurks, the worse it looks.

[Pomegranate]

I don't envy whomever replaces JL. They have the task of replacing, reading a 21 page thread, convincingus not to lynch JL without being able to defend/explain JL's throught processes, and find an alternate lynch which six other players are willing to support.

Yeah, but it's important to get the claim, since Sly said he will give an extension. But if it gets closer to the new deadline, and there is no other likely option, I'll be fine hammering.

[Pomegranate]

At least we get a deadline extension.

[Pomegranate]

Post coming tonight, hopefully.

[Pomegranate]

We need a massclaim.

It's D1. No, unless you have a specific reason to suggest it.

Also missed fishy saying 3rd parties generally appear innocent. That’s, well that’s untrue. It really does depend on the game. Lots of SK’s don’t get investigation immunity in my experience though.

Actually from what I know, SKs (I don't know about cults or other third parties) are often either NK immune or investigation immune.

Pom why is the 3rd or any other arbitary number on the bandwagon more scummy than any other if the reasons are justified. I don’t understand this as a scum-tell at all, actually.

It's an old wiki-tell, actually. I don't think it holds much water, and only ever bring it up when a few people all join a bandwagon in a row. But I find it worth mentioning- it's not the specific number 3, it's the jump onto a wagon by a few people at once.

Is being hypocritical a scum-tell Pom?

Well, I think so.

This is a no-reveal game as I understand it, though certain players are probably (hopefully) in a position to determine dead players' alignments. So. I assumed you were just making a cute joke.

If I'm not mistaken, it's partial reveal.

Should add that I've never been in a game with a non-sane Cop. Is it common that they're led to believe their results are 99% certain? I'm assuming not, because you and Faraday used the wording of his claim to infer his sanity.

The one time I played with one, his role PM didn't mention sanity, but he was sure he was sane. Only after he strongly pushed a mislynch did we start discussing sanity.

Also, unrelated, but I'd like to point out there is a possibility of a scum cop, either with Faraday or SSK. So don't assume either is confirmed.

Yes, but I don't think we should lynch either until we have reason to.

Don't misunderstand, it's not necessarily implicit, just...it's a situation where I trust the basic function of my role.

To you and any other investigative roles: It's a BASTARD game. I don't think anyone can be 99% sure of anything.

Just as a frame of reference, can everybody please just name the one person whose posting you have found scummiest, regardless of role information? A secondary choice would be just fine and dandy, too.

Alma, Vaya

Players with wait-and-see status

Sociopath
Vaya(/SSK)
Alma

I see what with the bottom ones, but what with DP? Did I miss something?

Not the best post. My vote is staying on Alma, but might move in the near future. I believe Faraday's claim, and I don't find the whole guilty/innocent thing

that

odd.

[Pomegranate]

To you and any other investigative roles: It's a BASTARD game. I don't think anyone can be 99% sure of anything.

Don't assume my role is investigative. I can be pretty sure about this given the very NATURE of the role.

You're right, I should have said information roles.

[Pomegranate]

In fact (and you're going to love this, and I sincerely apologize for the quadruple post),

Unvote, Vote: Phate

. I just looked over Vala's posting, and Phate's posting, and I have no idea how he's slid under the radar this long, but he stands out quite a bit to me now.

This, plus the repeated call for massclaim, and the vote on Faraday after his cop claim? I can't not

Vote: Phate

.

[Pomegranate]

In fact (and you're going to love this, and I sincerely apologize for the quadruple post),

Unvote, Vote: Phate

. I just looked over Vala's posting, and Phate's posting, and I have no idea how he's slid under the radar this long, but he stands out quite a bit to me now.

This, plus the repeated call for massclaim, and the vote on Faraday after his cop claim? I can't not

Vote: Phate

.

Repeated? eh, he's done it once.

Twice, actually. Once for today, and once saying that we do it first thing tomorrow.

[Pomegranate]

He's done very little, and has suggested mass-claim.

[Pomegranate]

He's done very little, and has suggested mass-claim.

I would like for you (not anyone else, until she's had a crack at it) to explain exactly why suggesting a mass-claim is scummy.

I don't have time to explain fully right now (due to my weekly V/LA). Mass-claim is generally a bad idea in early game because once PRs are outed, then often they're killed soon after. Yes, we can coordinate our night actions better, but it's a trade off, because usually the mafia NK the PRs ASAP. That's the basic reason not to mass-claim early in the game.

[Pomegranate]

(After she's done so, please answer my question.)

Once she does, I will. She pointed out a few reasons why massclaiming early can be a bad idea.

I didn't ask for a few reasons why massclaiming early can be a bad idea.

Then what did you ask for? I think that though it's different wording, it means the same thing as what you originally asked for.

Also, assuming you believe Sly to be a competent moderator, then your sig seems to contradict you.

[Pomegranate]

Pome, you said this yesterday:

I don't have time to explain fully right now (due to my weekly V/LA).

Mass-claim is generally a bad idea in early game because once PRs are outed, then often they're killed soon after. Yes, we can coordinate our night actions better, but it's a trade off, because usually the mafia NK the PRs ASAP. That's the basic reason not to mass-claim early in the game.

1. Is your V/LA finished?
2. Do you intend to explain more fully?

Yes.

Not this second- I'm going to be busy for a few hours.

[Pomegranate]

Mass-claim is generally a bad idea in early game because once PRs are outed, then often they're killed soon after. Yes, we can coordinate our night actions better, but it's a trade off, because usually the mafia NK the PRs ASAP. That's the basic reason not to mass-claim early in the game.

Claiming PRs D1 makes them more likely to get killed off one by one. Also, scum can claim certain PRs- cop, doc, roleblocker. These aren't foolproof for scum, but happen.

Also, Phate, if we're disagreeing about this because you have a role-based reason to think so and I don't, well, I think we can see where the disagreement comes from. Fishy said that the best plan for you would have been for you to claim, I think that would have made enough sense.

From the info I had, current mass-claim was a bad idea. If you have more info that you feel ready to share, then do.

[Pomegranate]

Note that Pom adamantly refused to give any explanation why asking for a D1 massclaim is scummy.

I disagree with this. I didn't refuse, and I think my reasoning made adequate sense.

This whole thing is fairly odd.

[Pomegranate]

Unvote Phate

I just read his whole claimy thing, and I need to think. It seems to me that there are probably 3-4 players of each "alignment." I would guess that one from each group can convert other players their alignment (a la Snow_Bunny). Another can probably identify others' current alignments to some degree (although the Guilty/Innocent nature makes this... difficult). I'm willing to bet that at least one alignment has a role that can kill other players (else I'd be hard-pressed to call this Mafia of any kind). There are also likely some vanilla sympathizers.

This seems plausible.

[Pomegranate]

This whole [Phateclaim] thing is fairly odd

What do you mean by this?

This doesn't seem weird to you? I don't doubt Phate, because why would he do it as scum? (On that note,

Unvote

.)

We're resdy to string up a scummy player, but then he is replaced, and claims cop. Then, a different player suggest massclaim. a wagon forms on him, and he says that he's also a cop. I think it's weird.

[Pomegranate]

I think that it's out of place, but I'm not ready to vote Fara for it now. The mod told us not to pay much attention to flavor (if I'm not mistaken), and it's possible that we're being messed with, as this is a Bastard game. But with that said, I agree that it doesn't fit well.

[Pomegranate]

Have the role-swappers said specifically that they change the OS? I can't remember. That would make the Google claim suspect enough to overrule Rule 7 IMO.

This is very relevant.

[Pomegranate]

It's interesting to watch how Faraday panics as he approaches a lynch. It doesn't feel like someone who believes they win with the town.

But some people flail when they're town, and there's going to be a mislynch on them. I don't see much in this, though I see how the fact that he claimed to be from Google is scummy.

I'm not really sure what to say about Faraday, since he seems to be sticking to his Google claim, which doesn't fit in with any of this. I have three theories on this.
1) We really

are

all protown, and the OS thing is all one giant red herring. This actually sounds pretty plausible. If that's the case, Google doesn't fit in with the innocents, Faraday is some kind of Mafia OS Cop, and we need to lynch him.
2) Each OS is a cult whose members were led to believe they were protown. Google et al are genuine OS-less townies, and they're going to be victimized or converted.
3) Each OS is a cult whose members were led to believe they were protown, there's a mafia (which includes FaradayGoogle), and there's not actually a real town.
(Off-Record and out-of-game, I am partial to option 1, because I think it would be by far the most creative form of bastardity. And yes, I just made that a word.)

I think that the first makes the most sense, especially in light of Iec's GNU claim.

Unvote, vote: Faraday

Good points on the Google thing. Also, we can't forget previous acts done by JL.

Also, if you notice, there has been 4 OS claimed (Linux, WinBlows, crApple and DOS), not three, which weighs in more. Google just don't fit it.

That vote seemed pretty quick putting him at L-2 without much of your own reasoning.

It's a Bastard game. Things happen.

One thought, building on Glork's second theory: We are all cult (etc, etc...), and Faraday is some sort of survivor.

[Pomegranate]

It's interesting to watch how Faraday panics as he approaches a lynch. It doesn't feel like someone who believes they win with the town.

But some people flail when they're town, and there's going to be a mislynch on them. I don't see much in this, though I see how the fact that he claimed to be from Google is scummy.

I'm not really sure what to say about Faraday, since he seems to be sticking to his Google claim, which doesn't fit in with any of this. I have three theories on this.
1) We really

are

all protown, and the OS thing is all one giant red herring. This actually sounds pretty plausible. If that's the case, Google doesn't fit in with the innocents, Faraday is some kind of Mafia OS Cop, and we need to lynch him.
2) Each OS is a cult whose members were led to believe they were protown. Google et al are genuine OS-less townies, and they're going to be victimized or converted.
3) Each OS is a cult whose members were led to believe they were protown, there's a mafia (which includes FaradayGoogle), and there's not actually a real town.
(Off-Record and out-of-game, I am partial to option 1, because I think it would be by far the most creative form of bastardity. And yes, I just made that a word.)

I think that the first makes the most sense, especially in light of Iec's GNU claim.

Unvote, vote: Faraday

Good points on the Google thing. Also, we can't forget previous acts done by JL.

Also, if you notice, there has been 4 OS claimed (Linux, WinBlows, crApple and DOS), not three, which weighs in more. Google just don't fit it.

That vote seemed pretty quick putting him at L-2 without much of your own reasoning.

It's a Bastard game. Things happen.

One thought, building on Glork's second theory: We are all cult (etc, etc...), and Faraday is some sort of survivor.

[Pomegranate]

Unintentional double-post.

[Pomegranate]

Reading up now. Post later.

[Pomegranate]

Good catch, Iec- Vaya seems scummy from here. Also, as you pointed out, Alma.

Can you ask the Mod for confirmation on that point?

Glork supported Vaya much more than SSK, but he sometimes did it to really absurd degrees --

I love Vaya's posting so far. I really do. Many of his thoughts eerily parallel my own, and he's actually digging into the crux of why I voted Pom to begin with. He's very vote-hoppy right now (three vote changes between Posts 356 and 375), but that's not a point against his alignment.

He also tended to attack SSK over Vaya --

Even if this were a NORMAL game, if a player came out D1 and seriously said they had role-based information to make them 99% certain, you'd want that information out as soon as possible. If SSK is telling the truth and his information can be trusted, we'd be guaranteed a result. If SSK thinks he's telling the truth but his information cannot be trusted, we can gain valuable information about the bastardly nature of the game. If SSK is bullshitting us, we're passing up a golden opportunity to put a scumbag under the microscope on D1.

I'm going to side with Vaya here (SOUND THE MUTUAL BUDDYING ALARMS) and point out what's wrong with SSK's behavior.
1) SSK is claiming to be 99% certain of another player's alignment on D1 of a bastard game. This is... extremely curious to say the least, and I'm not willing to buy into it at all without knowing what can make him so certain of that information in this particular game. Any number of things could go wrong with this. Millers. Death Millers. Cop sanity issues. Changing alignments. Redirections. Scum Protections/Abilities. "Insane" Doctors.

2) SSK claims to have important information but won't reveal it because he doesn't want to be made a target by the scums. I can't even begin to explain how terrible play this is. If the day were to end right here and now, with pseudo-information claimed, that puts SSK at the

MOST

risk of getting nightkilled (if indeed he is legit). Why? Because A) potential Docs/Jailkeepers/Etc. don't know whether they should be protecting him; and B) The Scums can send important information (whether it is accurate or not) to the grave with SSK.
--I don't want anybody to answer this in-game, but I have two rhetorical question for each of you to ponder, given what SSK has said and given the nature of the game: If you were a Doctor, would you be inclined to protect him tonight? If you were Scum, and knew/believed/assumed SSK was not part of your group, would you be inclined to kill SSK tonight?

I'm not saying that I think SSK is scum. Nor am I saying that I think Vaya is town. Fact is, I don't know what either one is (or even what they *might* be), and I'm concerned that some players are being very headstrong, assuming that a pile of partial "information" will give them clarity in what is very clearly a complex game.

He's not being at all subtle in the Vaya defense, which is odd. (Maybe that last paragraph is intended to moderate the defense a little bit.) Still, I have an easier time believing that he is scumfriends with Vaya than with SSK.

Unvote; Vote: Vaya

If SSK is scum, I think there may be two scumteams (Winusers and MSpersons).

I'm not going to argue with the mod, but yes, I'm still in favor of a massclaim.

Okay, I changed my mind.

I am going to argue with the mod.

Excuse me, Mr. Mod. I've beaten one-player Super Mario without using cheats, and I utterly fail to see how that's a relevant metaphor for a massclaim. I didn't join the game to break it and I didn't join the game to get on your good side; I joined the game to have fun and to win. I'm not having much fun yet (not knowing how far I can trust my win condition makes it difficult for me to enjoy a game), but I intend to win, and I know I will obtain satisfaction from winning and I know I will obtain satisfaction if I break your setup. As for the spirit of the game, I don't think I'm obligated to play in a certain way because of your opinion of some intangible, relative 'spirit of the game'; rather, I think you're obligated to create that through role mechanics and flavor. Besides, what the hell flavor am I supposed to take away from administering a Windows network? I think I am playing according to the spirit of the game. I could easily imagine a Windows network administrator trying to break this setup.

Still in favor of a massclaim.

I don't think that we can brake the game by massclaim, sitting on D2. I played in the only other game modded by Sly- and though it was an open game, the modding was good, and I trust that Sly made a game not so easily broken. So, no, I don't like the idea of your massclaim. I will only cooperate if entirely necessary.

I don't think you get what I'm saying here. The guilty result is null, without any reason to trust he's sane(or trust him for that matter), it's not any reason at all to vote me.

SP is doing a good job of pushing me to believe the result more.

I agree with this. SSK is scum because you didn't get a result, even though Glork-scum defended Vaya, whom SSK believes to be scum?

(That last sentence came out weird. Oh well.)

Assuming the case is that you were RB'ed, don't you think you could have been blocked to stop you from clearing me as you were saying you would try to do yesterday? Scum would have just as much motivation to block you if I were town as they would if I were scum.

It's actually a terribly WIFOMrific situation.

I could get behind an Alma lynch and see what happens tonight.

I don't think scum would have the same motivation to block UK if you were town, as opposed to scum. One investigated (and "confirmed", quotes because it's a bastard game) is worse for scum than one "confirmed town".

Excuse me? I think you need to reread my post.

Again, two confirmeds is KINDA BIG. Since we kinda can't trust the cops. I'm pretty sure a sanity checker would be sane though.

Excuse me? I think you need to reread my post.
TWO CONFIRMED TOWN?
LIKELY?
You are saying that the most likely scenario is SSK is insane.
And that his results on Vaya were WRONG.
And that HE is TOWN...somehow...

Well, I'd assume that a sanity-checker is a role in the game for a reason.

Again, I'm a sanity CHECKER. I was planning on checking myself after SSK if things went awry. I don't think it was too much of a stretch to trust my results, had I got any.

But,
If your result was SSK is sane, then Vaya would be scum.
If your result was SSK is insane, Vaya would be town.

In neither scenario do you determine SSK's alignment.

So I find your statement of:

if I succeeded I'd likely be making two confirmed town

as inaccurate.

Yes, but I find an insane-cop scum less likely than insane-cop town. I guess that there's no reason to... but I do.

Of the two, I think Vaya is more likely to be scum. But more likely than that, Alma. But I can't check how many votes are on him ATM.

[Pomegranate]

I didn't get that at first, either. I think you're supposed to read the question as a rhetorical question and with a really incredulous tone. Then it all makes sense.

I'd like Pom to clarify.

Yes, it was meant to be read with a lot of sarcasm/skepticism. If you check the context, it was right after I quoted a post from you (UK), and I was agreeing with you. Iec got the tone I meant for the question right.

[Pomegranate]

Hi tubby!

[Pomegranate]

First, that isn't clear at all. Second...I guess your take on Glork's flip is that he was a death miller? If so, do you have reason to believe that you are also a death miller? If so, why haven't you said as much?

No, that isn't my take. Glork was killed by someone affiliated with Microsoft. This means their are either competing mafia factions OR faction alignment has nothing to do with innocent/guilty. Since I am a Winblows user and my win condition is with the town, I consider the latter to be true.

But I think Microsuck and Winblows are connected somehow, for obvious reasoning. Why do you think they aren't?

[Pomegranate]

EBWOP:

First, that isn't clear at all. Second...I guess your take on Glork's flip is that he was a death miller? If so, do you have reason to believe that you are also a death miller? If so, why haven't you said as much?

No, that isn't my take. Glork was killed by someone affiliated with Microsoft. This means their are either competing mafia factions OR faction alignment has nothing to do with innocent/guilty. Since I am a Winblows user and my win condition is with the town, I consider the latter to be true.

But I think Microsuck and Winblows are connected somehow, for obvious reasoning. Why do you think they aren't?

I understand that since you're a WB user you don't think so. But Glork was affiliated with WB, and that's partly where my question comes from.

[Pomegranate]

I think we all are.

[Pomegranate]

1. SSK is only town if he is insane AND UK was roleblocked as far as I can tell.

This confuses me. You said

Could someone explain how SSK's breadcrumb suggests miller?

It doesn't suggest "miller," but it does suggest "something is up." The miller claim fits with that. The crumb is "I have reason to believe that my results are accurate." The ultimate reason was that the information comes at a price (millerhood).

This made me think you thought SSK was town, by explaining how he made sense. But now you put him at the top of your scumlist. Please explain.

Also: I think Alma's binary confirm didn't mean anything, personally. Yes, Glork said that his had a meaning, but I don't think Alma's did. It was a stupid confirmation post. I think Iec is a bit obsessed with the idea that it had some meaning that could greatly help our scumhunting. No.

[Pomegranate]

Pomegranate, who are your top three suspects right now? Who do you think we should lynch today?

FTF- He hasn't done much, and claimed miller early. I smell scum. Also, his miller claim doesn't fit with Alma's and Glork's PM clauses (assuming GlokDM, which seems extremely likely right now):

In retrospect, the one thing I don't understand is why his Miller claim did not have the no-claim-on-D1 clause like Glork's and mine did. I suppose this could have something to do with him being Apple and not Windows, but I'm not sure.

tubby- I know Iec claimed to have info on him, but I can't base my decisions on info I don't have ATM.
SSK-

Let me see if I get SSK's claim well. He has a one-shot day investigation that turns him into miller after expended? If that's truth, I'll be nominating Sly for most complex role in the Scummies.

Pom needs to claim.

I'm basically a doctor. I'm a WB user who would like to switch to Linux, but can't. Since I can't, I at least try to protect players from MS once a night. If I attempt to protect a player whose alignment is being converted that night, my protection will not go through. I cannot protect myself.

[Pomegranate]

1. That spacing literally hurts my feelings. It's worse than UK's. <_<
2. Your explanations for your top suspects (except tubby, maybe, who is conspicuously *absent* <_<) are basically other players' arguments, and the one about SSK is particularly silly. Or I think it is. His ability isn't complex at all relative to others that have been claimed in this game. Not that there aren't independent reasons to find him scummy.
3. Did you breadcrumb at all?
4. Who did you target N1? Why?

We can probably check her reaction to the various conversion claims to evaluate the plausibility of her claim.

1. Sorry, I see it got messed up.
2. K.
3. No
4. UK. I found (and still find) her to considerably pro-town.

[Pomegranate]

If I'm not mistaken, there are only two votes on tubby- Vaya and Iec.

(Unvote;) Vote: Tubby

.

[Pomegranate]

We lynch Tubby. We get information. Tomorrow, we lynch again, using that information. K? Now vote Tubby.

[Pomegranate]

@Sly- when is deadline?

Monday, Feb 8th, 7pm central

[Pomegranate]

btw that was a blantant AtE on my part i know this you know this now lets move on.

...and lynch you already.

[Pomegranate]

Yes. And that he flips scum.

[Pomegranate]

Weekly V/LA going into effect- posting in all my games.

[Pomegranate]

First case

Apparently I cleared Iec because I couldn't find anything outside the Vaya connections. That was stupid.

It was stupid. Now, should I vote UK, or Vaya...?

[Pomegranate]

Okay.

Vote: Vaya

.

[Pomegranate]

Well, that was seriously by accident...

[Pomegranate]

Could you provide a link or a post number to show where you responded?

[Pomegranate]

Hasn't everyone claimed but SP? (IIRC)

[Pomegranate]

Vote: MafiaSSK

. ANSWER QUESTIONS, SSK. DO IT. NOW. FOLLOW MY PSYCHIC POWERS. OR WE SHALL LYNCH YOU.

That is L-1.

[Pomegranate]

I haven't finished reading the postgame yet...

Indeed. You are on permanent radar from now on.

Oh yeah, and I TOLD YOU Pom was scum.

I think Pom has been scum in every game I've played with her, as well.

Well, this is only the second.

--

I was so excited... if only I had killed SB...