Mafia 108 - Mafia With The Quickness - over!

[SaintKerrigan]

Vote: Gayle

for trying to start a bandwagon on the first game post.

[SaintKerrigan]

Wow five minutes have passed and no one's made a post. This is boring.

[SaintKerrigan]

Whoa, new avatar! I like it, though.

Unvote: Gayle. Vote: Haylen.

I counterclaim Llama tracker monkey mason day vig with a pinch of double voter, my special abilities are being able to change into a super saint reviver with the ability to lick all of the llama in the game.

[SaintKerrigan]

Also, Haylen's pic is for the lolz.

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Bogre: Why so serious? Didn't you see the joke in my first vote?

By the way, Haylen's obvscum. I mean, look at her new avatar. How could you possibly lynch that face?

On a more serious note, I'll parrot KMD and ask Neto why he voted Maemuki when he hates random voting.

[SaintKerrigan]

ninja'd by Neto.

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Neto: What do you consider superior about RQS over RVS? (Sorry for triple post)

[SaintKerrigan]

Haylen, I have to disagree with you on this one. RQS, in my mind, is used to determine the responses of people to the questions asked of them. I've used it myself as town, so it isn't always scum-driven.

In other news,

Unvote: Haylen. Vote: Netlava.

Something about his post just rubbed me the wrong way...just kidding. My beef with Net is that he voted Maemuki for a very vague reason and for apologizing (obviously a nulltell). Feels opportunistic.

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Kmd: Why not elaborate on your town reads? I have to say, I'm getting a little worried about you. I don't really see the point in most of the points against Neto (except maybe the random-voting despite disliking it), and your reason for making Mae a sure scum read isn't a good one.

Bogre: Any comments on anything going on so far?

[SaintKerrigan]

Whoa, I leave for a couple of hours and we shoot up to page seven. Ok, let's see what I've got.

- Neto's argument against me regarding content is crap. A good portion of my posts were in the random vote stage, and I had to leave for a chess meet right as things started to get serious. Also, this game has gone on for only around 5 1/2 hours. Cut me some slack.
- Netopalis needs to start posting additional content. The theory arguments have been done to death. Let's see something new. Arguing suspicion of me is one way to do it, but how about some other guys?
- Netlava has an obsession with Mae. Town stalker, perhaps? Lack of content other than Mae-related when there was plenty else to comment on is suspicious.
- Kmd's reads are for laughs. If you're going to say they're solid reads, man, at least try to stick with them for awhile.

In other news, Haylen and Camn are showoffs, and I'm only wearing a shirt and pants in subzero weather. Of course, the thermostat is cranked up.

[SaintKerrigan]

It doesn't. I would ask you for something you can be pinned too to some degree incase Mae flips. Probably why I really voted in this game yet. Nothing I want to be pinned too.

The cautious scum is cautious.

This. Why don't you want to be pinned to anything, Annachie?

So far, I feel a lot of this Day 1 has been filled with accusations over theory crap and hasn't done a whole lot towards actual scumhunting. So please, can we cut the crap and get to some more serious stuff?

Netopalis may have a little internal inconsistency regarding the RVS, but as far as I can tell that's all we've really got on him. The rest of it is theory mumbo jumbo that shouldn't have shown up in the first place. Hardly evidence I would lynch someone over. Although I would ask him: what's wrong with parroting other people's arguments, as long as I agree with them and/or add additional content to them?

Glork, did you really throw out a random vote at this stage of the game? We aren't in RVS anymore.

Netlava could do with some more content, but he's finally managed to point out something that I like: Haylen's lack of content posts. Sure, I can appreciate jokes as well as anyone, but we've gotten into the serious stage of the game. Comments on issues at hand are highly appreciated--and highly lacking from Haylen atm. Haylen, would you mind posting more content? Because I'm tempted to move my vote off of Netlava and onto you.

FoS: Haylen.

[SaintKerrigan]

Glork, did you really throw out a random vote at this stage of the game? We aren't in RVS anymore.

Do you think my vote was random?

Given that you haven't provided a logical explanation for your vote, and you did provide a silly one, I'll have to go with yes (unless you explain otherwise).

[SaintKerrigan]

Bah, FUBARed the quote tags. Take two:

Glork, did you really throw out a random vote at this stage of the game? We aren't in RVS anymore.

Do you think my vote was random?

Given that you haven't provided a logical explanation for your vote, and you did provide a silly one, I'll have to go with yes (unless you explain otherwise).

[SaintKerrigan]

Actually,

Unvote: Netlava. Vote: Zachrulez.

He's been too quiet, I feel, plus his reasons for suspecting Mae and Neto aren't good.

[SaintKerrigan]

Well, look at that. I make a vote for Zachrulez, and guess who shows up? Either that's active lurking, or damned good timing.

Regarding Neto: Your only reason for voting him is for his avoiding bandwagons. How exactly is that scummy?

Regarding Mae: Again, only reason for suspicion is you got the "same bad vibe" that Netlava did, going on to explain that Mae's post (I can't remember which now, but it's beside the point) is laden with "sarcasm, possibly even gloating." That's just not a good tell.

Those the only two suspicions you've had all game. Whereas I've been a little more rounded out. That's why I feel the lurker argument is more applicable to you than me.

I forgot to say this about Elli earlier, so I'll say it now: the playstyle he's using isn't that much of a tell. He's used it in both games I've played with him, one in which he was town, and one in which he was scum. I don't think his playstyle really tells much about whether he's scum or not.

[SaintKerrigan]

Didn't his very first post actually discourage bandwagoning in general? That's how I interpretted it. Maybe we have different feelings about how to take that, but I don't really like it at all.

Again, why is this scummy?

Yeah, I find gloating to be a pretty good tell, scum bragging to town and such. In her case it's not very clear though, but the post doesn't really give me a good feeling.

Why would scum brag to town? Wouldn't that just give away their identity?

There's not much I can argue against gut, except to say I think you're wrong.

It would really help to see some more suspects out of you, or better reasons for the ones you have. Preferably, I'd like to see both things.

[SaintKerrigan]

Possible gloating is in the way you hit KMD for his failure to keep SK from voting one of his town reads.

Ahm, no. It's closely related to that, but it isn't that. If KMD thinks that Haylen is town, and SK was voting for Haylen, I couldn't see how he thought that they were both town. It confused me, therefore I replied on that sarcastic way. Understood?

What are you talking about? I only voted for Haylen once, and that was a joke vote.

[SaintKerrigan]

Mae, respond to my previous post, please.

[SaintKerrigan]

All right, I'm leaving now for lunch with my dad, then I have two meetings + chess practice, so I likely won't be back for at least 6 1/2 hours. Just so there's no confusion of this with lurking.

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Zach: I don't like Netlava anymore. I like you better now, so my vote's gonna move back.

Unvote: Zachrulez. Vote: Netlava.

Haylen: Consider my issues with you not posting content resolved. By the way, if you want to see a game where I started out as town, just check my Wiki. That's what it's there for.

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Zach: I don't like Netlava anymore. I like you better now, so my vote's gonna move back.

Unvote: Zachrulez. Vote: Netlava.

Haylen: Consider my issues with you not posting content resolved. By the way, if you want to see a game where I started out as town, just check my Wiki. That's what it's there for.

Hi Kerri. What do you think of Neto?

Off the top of my head...town. The arguments against him so far haven't gelled for me.

[SaintKerrigan]

Argh, I'm not in a good mood right now. Nothing to do with this game. I'm gonna stop posting for the night. See y'all tomorrow.

[SaintKerrigan]

Netlava: What is your opinion on Netopalis? Scum? Town? Why?

Maemuki: What is your opinion on Netopalis? Scum? Town? Why? On a side note, got any cookies?

[SaintKerrigan]

Maemuki: What is your opinion on Netopalis? Scum? Town? Why? On a side note, got any cookies? Very Happy

...I...don't really know...he's quite hard to read imo. I'll return to this when I'm a bit less sleepy. But his refusal to claim at L-2 on a speed game is a bit weird-ish.

And no, no cookies this time. Want donuts?

Shoot! There goes my perfect trap! But sure, I'll take a donut. They're town tells, right?

I don't find his refusal to claim all that weird. He's at L-2 for reasons that I feel he shouldn't be at L-2 for. I don't think it's the right time for him to claim, if he should need to claim at all.

Btw, Haylen is scum. She wants cookies. You know what that means, right?

[SaintKerrigan]

So far, the arguments I've seen against him have been related to theory (which we shouldn't lynch him over), and I'm getting frustrated townie vibes off of him rather than frustrated scum.

[SaintKerrigan]

Unvote: Netlava. Vote: Zachrulez.

Come here and play, Zach.

[SaintKerrigan]

It's not the only reason I'm voting him.

You're being fairly quiet yourself, Haylen. Why is that?

[SaintKerrigan]

Sorry to hear, Zach. Although it is getting odd that whenever I vote you, you decide to post.

[SaintKerrigan]

It's not the only reason I'm voting him.

You're being fairly quiet yourself, Haylen. Why is that?

Because I've been making Wiki pages for people.

Oh. Didn't you already do that for your newbie game? *shrug* No matter, I guess.

[SaintKerrigan]

Yeah. But 3 others have asked me since

Kewl.

[SaintKerrigan]

I'm trying to enjoy my games, as well as partake in them. I've been taking mafia way too seriously for far too long now.

This. It's been a problem for me as of late too.

[SaintKerrigan]

To everyone still voting Netopalis: Why aren't you buying the claim? What exactly has Netopalis done that warranted the claim in the first place?

To everyone who unvoted Netopalis: Why did you unvote as soon as you got the claim?

Kmd: Not that I don't appreciate the town read, but how exactly have my opinions been clear and well-explained?

[SaintKerrigan]

To everyone still voting Netopalis: Why aren't you buying the claim? What exactly has Netopalis done that warranted the claim in the first place?

Pretty sure I made this clear the first time I answered it.

I got yours. I just didn't feel like individually singling out people and asking the same questions.

And Haylen, huh??? Your PBPA was pretty strong regarding why you were voting Netopalis. How could you just now reread the thread and not figure out why you were voting him?

Unvote: Zachrulez. Vote: Haylen.

[SaintKerrigan]

[SaintKerrigan]

Wait a minute. Your PBPA was

based

on the posts you said you reread. If your reread couldn't find anything scummy now, why does quoting the PBPA that was based off that same information change anything?

[SaintKerrigan]

Unvote: Haylen.

Point made. I do disagree with your case against Neto, however.

I prefer a

Vote: Zachrulez.

He's largely been avoiding the Neto controversy, except to say he doesn't like him (in a generalish sort of way) and to claim scum love hider types of claims, neither of which I feel are lynch-worthy.

[SaintKerrigan]

Unvote: Haylen.

Point made. I do disagree with your case against Neto, however.

I prefer a

Vote: Zachrulez.

He's largely been avoiding the Neto controversy, except to say he doesn't like him (in a generalish sort of way) and to claim scum love hider types of claims, neither of which I feel are lynch-worthy.

I don't see how I've been avoiding it....

Your vote was for Neto avoiding bandwagons. You haven't commented on him all that much after that, other than to say you disagree with Neto's voting-with-reason stance and that you didn't believe the claim.

You apparently want this guy lynched

, but for the life of me I can't figure out why based on what you've posted. Hence, avoiding the controversy.

[SaintKerrigan]

Do you have a particular reason to believe the claim? Other than the fact that he claimed?

The claim doesn't make me think he's scummier, if that's what you mean. I've maintained that I think Neto is town, and that the arguments against him have been crap. The claim doesn't do anything to make me think otherwise.

[SaintKerrigan]

Do you have a particular reason to believe the claim? Other than the fact that he claimed?

The claim doesn't make me think he's scummier, if that's what you mean. I've maintained that I think Neto is town, and that the arguments against him have been crap. The claim doesn't do anything to make me think otherwise.

Even in light of the many games I have played in where I have seen half a dozen hider claims from someone who was scum, and EXACTLY ZERO from pro-town players?

That could have nothing to do with the fact that I want him lynched... nope, not at all.

Links or it didn't happen.

And even at that, it could just as easily be you using that as an excuse to vote someone you know is town...

[SaintKerrigan]

Yah, but you made no mention of those things earlier.

[SaintKerrigan]

The odds that he'll flip town are ridiculously low. So I don't need any excuses. I can own up to being wrong if it happens, but I doubt I will be.

Can I say I told you so if I turn out to be right?

[SaintKerrigan]

Let's pretend that if no majority is reached there would be a no lynch. Would you vote for Neto then?

No. I am not convinced he is scum.

This.

[SaintKerrigan]

Unvote: Zachrulez. Vote: Netlava.

That "list of suspects" was atrocious. Plus lack of decent scumhunting.

[SaintKerrigan]

Oh, and Zach has become townier in my eyes, at least more so than Netlava.

[SaintKerrigan]

Well, looks like Netlava isn't getting lynched today. As much as I like Zach, I think he has a better chance of being scum over Netopalis.

Unvote: Netlava. Vote: Zachrulez.

[SaintKerrigan]

Trust the cat...seriously...

[SaintKerrigan]

Erm...

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Camn: There's been plenty of time for Zach to defend himself. He came on pretty much everytime I voted him to explain his reasons for doing what he did. So it's not as if this wagon sprang up suddenly. It's just that someone else's bandwagon (cough cough) took up most of the attention...

[SaintKerrigan]

I'm here. Who were you thinking about lynching, Yos?

[SaintKerrigan]

Happy birthday, Gayle!

[SaintKerrigan]

I'd be very happy with a Netlava lynch instead of a Zach lynch. Don't know if we can pull it off though...

[SaintKerrigan]

Unvote: Zachrulez. Vote: Netlava.

Let's do this!

[SaintKerrigan]

L-1 Alert.

Just so people know it's L-1.

[SaintKerrigan]

5 votes now + 1 from before (Maemuki) = 6 votes = L-1.

[SaintKerrigan]

Actually, I'm a girl, too. Can't you tell by the avatar?

[SaintKerrigan]

Actually, I'm a girl, too. Can't you tell by the avatar?

Wait...so that was a stick on penis?

Sorry to disappoint.

[SaintKerrigan]

Actually, I'm a girl, too. Can't you tell by the avatar?

Yeah, but you have that little "male" symbol, so we're all going to assume you're a guy. Plus we all know girls don't play starcraft.

What male symbol?

[SaintKerrigan]

Go go, Pokemon! The joke will only be understood by those who know my newest career choice.

Pokeball manufacturer?

[SaintKerrigan]

Please don't tell me that you've decided to become a professional breeder. Of anything.

I read this in the calm, assuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I lol'd.

[SaintKerrigan]

Please don't tell me that you've decided to become a professional breeder. Of anything.

lol

I have now officially switched genders with SK.

It must be LOVE!!!

[SaintKerrigan]

*shrugs* Now you've both taken my gender away from me

Oh noez! Would you like a

cookie

donut?

[SaintKerrigan]

Please don't tell me that you've decided to become a professional breeder. Of anything.

lol

I have now officially switched genders with SK.

It must be LOVE!!!

LESBIAN LOVE~ <33

...oh...

[SaintKerrigan]

No! Give me back my penis!

Umm...but...I don't have it anymore.

On a more serious note, do we have to get serious now? Because I always feel like gettin' drunk after a killin'.

[SaintKerrigan]

Can we spank him if he doesnt answer?

[SaintKerrigan]

*extemely unfitting music plays*

*resists urge to link highly inappropriate Rammstein song*

I don't want to get drunk, I could get on jail. :<

Look at thish way, honey...we ish gonna go to jail for murder anywaysh, sho why not have shome fun firsht?

[SaintKerrigan]

No! Give me back my penis!

Umm...but...I don't have it anymore.

On a more serious note, do we have to get serious now? Because I always feel like gettin' drunk after a killin'.

I'm glad everyone's here, and all the gender-changing-lesbian-spanking is certainly fun, but yeah, the stuff people say in the last few minutes before a deadline in a crazy situation like this can be very significant, and I'd like to squeeze out a few more solid comments from people before we find out lava's alignment.

Maemuki: If lava flips scum, who do you think his buddies would be? If he's town, who would you suspect then?

Yeah, I know...but girls just wanna have fun, y'know? Damn, this is hard to stop!

So, any questions for me, Yos?

[SaintKerrigan]

Can't wait for Netlava to flip protown so I can destroy the people who wagoned him to death.

So why do you think he is protown?

[SaintKerrigan]

Well, then, why didn't you say that?

He did, actually.

[SaintKerrigan]

Anyway, I'm now pretty sure Glork is town here.

Guess we'll have to nightkill him.

Aw, crap...

[SaintKerrigan]

Vote: Gayle.

Your inconsistencies yesterday are noted.

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Gayle: You said yesterday that you weren't sure who to lynch, but that you favored a Netlava lynch. Inconsistency.

[SaintKerrigan]

Why do you think the Netlava lynch happened?

Because a lot of people didn't want to lynch Neto or Zach, found a Netlava lynch preferable, or were scum taking advantage of a sudden bandwagon.

What do you think it says about Neto and Zach?

I don't know what it says about Zach or Neto. I am more suspicious of Neto, however, due to the fact that we had two town power roles die. It makes his claim seem less likely.

What inconsistencies do you speak of, and what else about Gayle's play led to your decision to vote him?

First part has been answered. Second part will have to be answered later.

I'm deliberately ignoring answering the rest of your questions. Reasons why will be given later.[/quote]

[SaintKerrigan]

Unvote: Gayle. Vote: Bogre.

Misrepresentation noted.

[SaintKerrigan]

Why do you think the Netlava lynch happened?

Because a lot of people didn't want to lynch Neto or Zach, found a Netlava lynch preferable, or were scum taking advantage of a sudden bandwagon.

Do you think townspeople or scums had more incentive to jump to the LavaLynch?

Looking back, scum had a very opportune moment to lynch a protown person, while keeping around the two scummiest players from Day 1. I would be willing to wager that there were scum on the Netlava wagon.

[SaintKerrigan]

On the Netlava wagon, my top suspect is Haylen. Second is Gayle. Third is Neto. All this is based on gut feeling, though (except for Haylen), but I'm interested right now in what Bogre is trying to purport on Gayle.

[SaintKerrigan]

Its not inconsistent. I didn't know who I really wanted to lynch. I voted for a Netlava lynch because I thought it was better than the alternatives.

Fine.

[SaintKerrigan]

Unvote: Gayle. Vote: Bogre.

Misrepresentation noted.

Misrepresentation? Where?

See Gayle's latest post. It's in there.

CAN EVERYONE WHO VOTED FOR NET TELL MY WHY THEY DID SO???

Because I thought he was scum.

Why? What have I done this time?

Your posting history suggests active lurking. Something also feels off about your posts, but I haven't identified it yet.

[SaintKerrigan]

Holy farklesticks, half an hour and we've already got a whole page of stuff.

[SaintKerrigan]

woot! Simpulpost-fest!

Hey,

bro

sister, what do you think about the lynch?

VOTE: Haylen

*shrugs* It sucks that we lynched a townie. It sucks that more thought wasnt put behind it. And it sucks that Yossypoo led it (must check that bit)

Actually, Neto technically started the bandwagon, I felt I started it in spirit, and Maemuki was the first voter on there.

I did forget about Yos, though. I have to go back and read him.

[SaintKerrigan]

On the Netlava wagon, my top suspect is Haylen. Second is Gayle. Third is Neto. All this is based on gut feeling, though (except for Haylen), but I'm interested right now in what Bogre is trying to purport on Gayle.

Do you realize that you just mostly answered my "If Gayle is scum, who do you think are his most likely scumbuddies" question, in spite of saying just a moment ago that you wouldn't answer it?

If Haylen was your top suspect on the wagon, why did you come out of the gates voting Gayle instead?

My vote on Gayle served it's purpose. I was trying to see how he'd react to it. Right now, though, I'm more suspicious of Bogre for misrepping Gayle and then keeping quiet even though he's online.

@ Haylen: Active lurking is active lurking. It's still suspicious.

[SaintKerrigan]

I don't like Zach's subtle attack on arguably the most pro-town player in this game (Maemuki). At least the most pro-town player on the Netlava wagon (well, besides me, but I have to say that ).

[SaintKerrigan]

See Gayle's latest post. It's in there.

I actually had to go back to page 20 to see what you were talking about - I started the catchup reading today at page 23 or 24. I had got the wrong impression from Ellibereth's and Gayle's back and forth, and switched their thoughts. Elli was talking about the lynch happening faster, Gayle was opposed.

So, that Gayle was supporting a Neto lynch before he suggested the mislynch is wrong.

He was still not contributing, and possibly knew that a Neto lynch was a mislynch/wanted to avoid a Zachrulez lynch.

But then couldn't you argue that I should also be lynched by the same principle? I also didn't support the Neto bandwagon and I don't feel like I've contributed much. Why Gayle over me?

Also, Maemuki was on the Netlava wagon,

stayed

on the Netlava wagon, even while other people were switching over to Neto or Zach (including me, who had also been on the Netlava wagon with her). Also, my gut feeling says she's town.

@ Haylen: How do you know Yos can't be lynched. Who told you?

[SaintKerrigan]

Also yeah... what the hell? Subtle attack? What's SK on?

Ok, so you don't agree that Mae is pro-town. I probably shouldn't have used the word "subtle." The grammar Nazis can go ahead and lynch me now.

[SaintKerrigan]

Urgh, not feeling good today. Will try and post something later tonight, but no promises.

[SaintKerrigan]

Well, I was wrong about Netopalis. And we either have a serial killer or a vigilante (unless there's another killing role that I'm not aware of). I would guess Vig because of Gayle's death; it seems more likely to have come from a Vig, and I can't see an SK killing either Gayle or KMD.

Rereading (again), but right now my gut is saying Haylen or Maemuki is scum (I'm not sure if they're scum together though). Something's felt off about Haylen to me this entire game, and I can't recall if Maemuki ever took a strong stance on Neto or not. Not gonna vote yet, though.

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Haylen: 4. And that's why I'm not voting yet.

[SaintKerrigan]

Er, 5.

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Maemuki: Aye, but you didn't state as such until the latter part of Day 2, and for much of the game you avoided commenting on the Netopalis debate. It makes me suspicious.

I have to agree with you that a pressure vote that is removed before the person being pressured responds isn't a pressure vote. And notice how Haylen continually threw up her PBPA when asked for reasons why she suspected Neto? That also makes me suspicious.

[SaintKerrigan]

Also, i REALLY dont want to claim, so dont put me at L-1, please.

Why don't you want to claim?

[SaintKerrigan]

you wouldnt believe me anyway. lol.

You wouldn't

happen

to be what you claimed at the beginning of the game, would you?

I'm starting to get a thought that Yos and Mae are scum with Neto...

[SaintKerrigan]

I'm starting to think that you are oppurtunistic scum...

That's funny. I make a mere mention that you and Yos could be scum and look what happens. I get an OMGUS reaction.

Duly noted.

[SaintKerrigan]

Actually, Haylen jumps on Neto early on in the game. I don't think a scum team would come out of the gate with an attack on their partner. Not until they get a feel for how town's going to react. I'm starting to feel better about Haylen now.

[SaintKerrigan]

Oops, sorry Yos. I was curious as to why she came out and said she didn't want to claim. I found it weird, so I asked. I have to ask, do you have more on me than voting records. I made it pretty clear, on multiple occasions, why I didn't want to vote for Neto.

@ Maemuki: The combined events of the flip of Neto and the death of Gayle are causing me to seriously reevaluate my scumlist. This time, you come up pretty short. But I'm not entirely positive yet, so that's why I'm not voting for you.

I'm getting a new gut feeling though that Haylen is being set up for a mislynch...

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Bogre: It's due to a fresh ISO of Haylen and knowledge of Neto's role.

[SaintKerrigan]

Mae and Bogre scumteam...

SK and Haylen scumteam~!

I thought we were in love...

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Bogre: It's due to a fresh ISO of Haylen and knowledge of Neto's role.

The latter of which you had at the beginning of this day, in which you were suspicious of Haylen.

So that leaves his Iso: what in it makes you feel better of him?

Read the part where I stated that I don't think it's likely that mafia buddies would attack each other right out of the gate. And it's a combination of both the new ISO read and knowledge of Neto's flip. I had the flip at the start of the day, true, but not the fresh ISO read.

[SaintKerrigan]

In Haylen's case, I disagree- he has hardly played cautious, or even played with any kind of determinable motives or sense.

And why does that make her scum?

[SaintKerrigan]

Also, gotta go and play some chess right now. Will try to be back tonight.

[SaintKerrigan]

I'm a vanilla townie. My brain's shot right now, so a proper defense will have to wait until tomorrow.

[SaintKerrigan]

I can't wait to see the reaction on you guys' faces if you hammer me. Just because I defended a scum doesn't make me scum. Let this be today's lesson, children. Now, who wants milk and

cookies

donuts?

[SaintKerrigan]

1) Why, on D2, did you suddenly abandon going after Zach?

Basically, I found Bogre more suspicious at the time than Zach. It was partially me forgetting about him (Zach), though. And then Neto got hammered before I could come back and fully analyze everybody.

2) With the current knowledge that Neto was scum, combined with the last-minute wagon on Lava from D1, who do you think saved Neto's ass from being lynched that first day? For your convenience, the relevant vote counts are here, and here (and they show you the order in which people moved to Netlava).

Well, Haylen looks the most suspect (Maemuki could be scum, but she stayed on the Netlava wagon from the beginning so she doesn't count) because of her statement earlier that she would rather have a Neto lynch. My

current

(susceptible to change!) read on Haylen is town, though.

3) Did you have any reason to believe on D1 that Neto was protown, aside from (and I quote you directly) "the arguments against him have been crap"?

I thought the way he responded to the crap arguments made against him were sensible and not scummy. Again, I was obviously wrong. And with Gayle (the other person who had stated that Neto was likely town) dead, guess who's taking the fall...just a thought.

4) Who on your wagon do you think is scum, and why? (This answer may be related to your answer to question 2, or it may be for completely different reasons.)

Without having reread anyone...Bogre. I forgot about Bogre at the start of today in my sudden change of heart about Maemuki, but my suspicion of him from Day 2 still lingers.

Kerri, what posts made you think that Hayl is pro-town? What's your opinion on Bogre?

Hayl is protown right now because of her stance on Neto at the beginning of Day 1. My opinion on Bogre is possible scum, but I have to go back and reread him to make sure. Probably won't have time for that for awhile.

I'm curious to know what it is about asking why Haylen doesn't want to claim that is considered rolefishing...

[SaintKerrigan]

I'm curious to know what it is about asking why Haylen doesn't want to claim that is considered rolefishing...

To give a proper answer, she'd essentially have to give away important information anyway.

Ok, I see your point. Good thing she didn't give a proper answer, then.

[SaintKerrigan]

It's not so much as "I defended scum" as:
"I asked the known scum a few token questions which served to distance, then when push came to shove tried to force any lynch other than his.

How did I try and distance myself from Neto? If anything, my actions could be seen as "buddying." I don't get where you got the distancing part.

Also, how is trying to put Bogre at L-1 (which he isn't at, by the way) and forcing him to claim any different from my "rolefishing" earlier? Come to think of it, you've already got a claim out of me. Now you're trying to get a claim out of someone else? This is making me feel uneasy about you. I guess I'll have to ISO you, in addition to Bogre.

I don't like how Elli just stepped in and answered Maemuki's question to Glork, but I'm not sure if it's actually scummy or not.

[SaintKerrigan]

Addendum: I'm beginning to wonder if

both

(if there is in fact two) of the remaining scum were on the Neto wagon. This insight comes from having played Mini 892, where one scum played somewhat similarly to Netopalis (made a move that seemed innocuous to some and scummy to others), and both of his partners bussed him to hell. Scum would've gotten away with it too, but one screwed up in a massclaim which led to lynching both the remaining scum.

[SaintKerrigan]

Addendum: I'm beginning to wonder if

both

(if there is in fact two) of the remaining scum were on the Neto wagon. This insight comes from having played Mini 892, where one scum played somewhat similarly to Netopalis (made a move that seemed innocuous to some and scummy to others), and both of his partners bussed him to hell. Scum would've gotten away with it too, but one screwed up in a massclaim which led to lynching both the remaining scum.

Good job at suspecting everyone without pointing towards a specific person.

Glork and Elli/Haylen, specifically.

[SaintKerrigan]

Yes, I changed my mind about Haylen (again). I realized her Day 1 vote was more of a light vote, and could be made by scum.

[SaintKerrigan]

Erm, sorry for ruining your timing, Haylen.

[SaintKerrigan]

God, make up your mind SK.

I'm trying, dammit! Unfortunately, I'm not scum, so I don't know who's innocent and who's not.

[SaintKerrigan]

God, make up your mind SK.

I'm trying, dammit! Unfortunately, I'm not scum, so I don't know who's innocent and who's not.

Well, you could be lying.

Just a thought~

Well, I could be telling the truth.

Just a thought~

[SaintKerrigan]

Uh huh.

[SaintKerrigan]

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[SaintKerrigan]

It's just you. I'm no good at all with animation techniques.

[SaintKerrigan]

Because Hayl's initial vote for Neto was because of an argument over RQS vs RVS, and how RQS could be used by scum. It wasn't that strong of a vote, and could be a basic distancing ploy.

[SaintKerrigan]

Just ISO'ed Glork, and while I still find his voting for claims to be odd, I can't see much else wrong with him. I've moved him down on my suspect list.

[SaintKerrigan]

Is that the only reason?

Only one I could see as of right now. Were you expecting more?

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Mae: So what were you expecting? I'm currently ISO'ing other people right now.

[SaintKerrigan]

Ooh, found this little nugget from Bogre.

Not supporting the Neto bandwagon isn't scummy in of itself- I didn't support it, if you'll notice.

(From Day 2)

And one of his reasons for voting me is for staying off the Neto wagon. Contradiction noted.

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Mae: I do have other people to scumhunt, you know.

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Mae: I do have other people to scumhunt, you know.

If you believe someone is scummy, are you just going to leave them be?

When did I say I was going to leave anyone be?

[SaintKerrigan]

Tell me where I said I truly believe Haylen's scum. My statement regarding the early Neto vote by Haylen was originally that I thought it made her look town. After looking at it again, I realized that it was more like a light vote, and thus could be scum bussing each other.

Also, when I said that I had other people to scumhunt, it meant there's other people to look at besides Haylen, so I'm going to look at them because I don't want to tunnel on one person or two.

[SaintKerrigan]

You mean this, Zach?

I think SaintKerrigan is scum.

He spent a lot of time saying that Neto's bandwagon was unjustified, and a day 1 all over the place with wishy washy voting, most of which where he couldn't decide whether he wanted to vote for me, Haylen, or Netlava.

That's not called wishy-washy voting. It's called not being certain who exactly is scum, so I move my vote to who I think is suspicious. Isn't that something we're supposed to do as town? Oh wait, why am I asking you? Your vote hardly moved at all once it got stuck on Netopalis. And on top of that, you didn't really state good reasons for voting Neto until pressured into doing so.

Day two consisted of him turning against Neto to an extent, saying that the pr flips made his claim less likely to be true, while conveniently never actually putting his vote on Netopolis and exploring other suspects. Maybe he didn't expect Netopolis to be lynched that quickly?

I never actually said Neto was scum. I just said I was doubting his claim. What you're stating that I was doing and what I actually did are two entirely different things. Also, I did too explore other suspects. What are you talking about?

Also this

I don't like Zach's subtle attack on arguably the most pro-town player in this game (Maemuki). At least the most pro-town player on the Netlava wagon (well, besides me, but I have to say that ).

is standing out like a sore thumb to me, especially considering SK's current position on Mae. (What changed your read on her btw?)

I'm pretty sure I already explained that my read on Mae changed because of the recent flips and Mae's reaction (or seeming lack thereof) to the Netopalis controversy.

Oh and of course rolefishing...

Pbbt. Whether I was intentionally doing that or not is debatable.

One other thing. I'm pretty sure I've seen every single one of Zach's arguments spoken previously by other people. He's not been active, he typically only responds when called for (or posts to avoid the prod), and he's parroting other arguments.

Hmm...

Vote: Zachrulez.

I'm not forgetting you today, Zach.

[SaintKerrigan]

Ah ok.

Anyone fancy explaining why Mae is considered the most protown player this game?

I don't hold that position anymore. However, I'm fairly certain that you and Mae can't be scum together. Verdict's still up in the air over whether one of you is actually scum.

[SaintKerrigan]

So, I can't vote for people I find suspicious just because they happen to be on my wagon? I'm pretty sure at least one scum is on my wagon. I'm just too easy a target for scum to completely ignore.

[SaintKerrigan]

Nice OMGUS SK...

[SaintKerrigan]

Not that you'll believe me, but I was busy on late Thursday and most of Friday. Today I finally had time to ISO people, and I remembered you, Zach. You've not exactly been the paragon of towniness.

Oh, wait! You were on Neto from practically the beginning! That should be enough to clear you, right? Wrong. Like I said earlier, I've seen scum bus hard before. And your vote looks like a bus, especially since it started out oh so frail and weak, and only through repeated questioning did it become fleshed out. Just how were you so certain that Neto was scum, Zach?

[SaintKerrigan]

So, I can't vote for people I find suspicious just because they happen to be on my wagon? I'm pretty sure at least one scum is on my wagon. I'm just too easy a target for scum to completely ignore.

So am I! So?

For goodness sake's, just 'cause you think that you're an easy mislynch, it does not mean that all scum are on your wagon. In fact, scum might even run away from your wagon.

I have more reason to suspect Zach than that.

[SaintKerrigan]

I'm lurking, btw.

Thanks for telling us. How about comments on other things. What do you think about me? What do you think about Zach? etc.

[SaintKerrigan]

<snip> or he think's im part of a seperate scum faction if he's scum.

Wait, what?

@ Mae: Why are you so driven and obsessed with getting me to vote Hayl?

[SaintKerrigan]

Just because you didn't understand my vote (Or apparently want to understand it.) doesn't mean it wasn't justified.

I guess this depends on what other people believe. In my opinion, it's scummy. What do other people think?

So if Neto is not a hider then he's... (I'll let you finish that thought.)

Oh, come on. I said I

doubted

Neto's claim, not that I

disbelieved

it. You're twisting my words there, Zach. That's not nice.

You must not have explained it well, because I don't understand the change of read.

Again, I changed on Mae because Neto flipped scum, and I didn't recall seeing a lot of interaction one way or the other between Mae and Neto. Comprende?

What WERE you doing then?

Asking Haylen a question about why she didn't want us to force her to claim. I wasn't aware that it had rolefishing implications. Take it or leave it.

Ohhh look, accusations and no citations! Awesome!

I'll give you this. I incorrectly remembered how things went down. I apologize for misrepresenting you there.

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Mae: Why are you so driven and obsessed with getting me to vote Hayl?

Ahm, you didn't understand me. You say that Zach commited a scumtell, but when Haylen does it, you ignore it. Why?

Refresh me on the scumtell you're referring to.

And you've been trying to get me to vote Hayl for quite a while now. Please, answer the question.

[SaintKerrigan]

Parroting. Bussing Neto, and one more that-I-really-can't-remember.

Where was Haylen parroting? She could've bussed Neto, true. Please try to remember what the other scumtell was. I see no reason right now to vote Haylen over Zach. That may change when I ISO her again.

Seriously.

Yes, seriously. Why are you going after me specifically to vote Haylen?

[SaintKerrigan]

You're not getting it, are you? You're ignoring Hayl's scumtells, that are identical to Zach's, and going after Zach instead. I mean, why?

Like I said, I have

not yet

seen any reason to vote Haylen over Zach. I have a mind. I may change it if I see fit to do so. I'm going to read Haylen again in ISO. Please, be patient.

@ Bogre: Any other comments besides a claim?

[SaintKerrigan]

Appealing to majority?

Feels like you're trying to have it both ways here. The question still stands btw.

What question? The more-or-less rhetorical question that anyone could guess the answer to? Fine. If Neto isn't a hider, then he's either a lying townie or lying scum, the latter possibility being more likely.

In games that are large enough, players tend to escape my notice quite often if they're not on my scumdar. I'm not exactly convinced that it really means anything. With how much scrutiny Netopolis had, I would think that scum would go out of their way to react to him.

Then we have a difference of opinion.

Are you aware that the answer to your question should be pretty obvious without asking it? Pushing the matter and questioning in this instance will only inevitably lead to more info being gained regarding her role.

I've already been informed of how my question looks. I wasn't aware of it at the time, I am aware of it now, and I'll try my best not to ask such questions again. Okay?

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Haylen: What do you think about Yosarian2?

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Bogre: I was being hypothetical.

[SaintKerrigan]

(sorry for the triple post) Another question for Haylen: Why are you voting for Bogre versus Maemuki?

[SaintKerrigan]

(Argh, quadruple post, but I have questions I want answered.)

Maemuki, please cite some examples of where Haylen is parroting other players.

[SaintKerrigan]

Glork: Bogre already claimed vanilla earlier.

[SaintKerrigan]

Actually, the word "I doubt that <...>" means "I find <...> unlikely to be true." So yeah, you were saying you were leaning towards disbelieving the claim.

But the point was I never actually said Neto was scum. I was entertaining the possibility, true, but it was never a sure fact for me.

[SaintKerrigan]

1. Pushing the Netlava wagon and supporting the Zach wagon when it looked worthwhile (to free Neto).

I pushed the Netlava wagon because I thought he was scum and I rode on the Zach wagon because I felt he was a better lynch than Neto (and at the time it was basically Zach vs Neto).

2. Dancing around the point of Haylen, making several self-contradictory responses.

Point out where I was being self-contradictory. I started out the day by saying she felt scummy. When I first ISO'ed her, I found something (the early vote for Neto) that I thought made her look protown, so I said so. When I looked at it again, I realized it wasn't really a good indication of towniness, so I changed my mind. You're implying, of course, that Haylen is scummy by using this point against me. So may I ask what makes me a better lynch than her?

3. Being 'unsure' of the hider claim - voicing suspicion, yet not taking a firm stance.

How exactly does that indicate scumminess or not? This sounds like a reach to me.

Just because Kerrigan is posting doesn't suggest he is town and I am scum- he has more to gain from drowning the town in posts and staying alive today than I do.

How do I have more to gain by "drowning the town in posts," as you say? You're also twisting the issue here by implying that Glork called me town just for posting, when really it was for the content and feel of my posts, plus the fact that I've been around and posting while you've been around and not posting.

[SaintKerrigan]

I was rather hoping for more enlightening answers than that, Haylen.

Anything else on Yos2 besides him needing to post more (I'm think he's V/LA right now, if I recall correctly)?

Why is Bogre scum, besides for active lurking? Do you think Mae is scum? Why or why not? What is the difference between your active lurking and Bogre's active lurking?

[SaintKerrigan]

Did you miss it when I already pointed that quote out, SK?

You pointed out the quote earlier, yes, but I was illuminating the little contradiction that Bogre gives. If he thinks not being on the Neto wagon isn't scummy, why is he using it as a reason to vote me?

And then, after that little spot of distancing, SK goes and votes for Zach.

DO you really think it's likely Zach and Neto were scum together, SaintK, considering the way they were the two main bandwagons for most of day 1?

Where was I distancing, and from whom? I consider Zach a possible scum, with you as the likely remaining scum in that case (given your reluctance to lynch either one of them).

I obviously don't support my own lynch. I would vote for Bogre, but my vote would be the hammer, and I'm not ready to end the day just yet. I'm interested in seeing what other people have to say first.

[SaintKerrigan]

Sorry to hear about your troubles, Haylen.

You distanced from Bogre, making a weak attack against him and then voting for Zach.

Well, I can't really defend against this, except to say I wasn't distancing.

That dosn't actually answer my question, which is, why do you think it's likely Zach is scum with Bogre considering that they were the main two bandwagons for most of day 1?

I think you mean why do I think it's likely that Zach is scum with Neto, right? Anyway, I'm suspicious because he didn't really try hard to come up with reasons for voting Neto until he was pressured into doing so. Just because he was voting Neto doesn't mean he's not scum. Like I said earlier, I've seen scum bus hard before.

(Also, nice little implied barb at the end there. I was certanly not "reluctant" to lynch Neto yesterday, and I think I made clear yesterday that I was intending to eventually vote for him; only reason I ended up not doing so was because the day ended so quickly.)

Actually, your desire to have Neto lynched is

not

clear Day 2. You entered a lot of hypothetical "what-ifs" concerning the possibility that Neto is scum, true, but I didn't see anything that implied you were going to vote for him. Feel free to prove me wrong, though.

What do you think about Bogre, SK?

Well, up until now I was thinking he was scum. However, your post (especially regarding what I feel is misrepresentation of your behavior towards Neto on Day 2) has just made me feel

very

uneasy about your alignment. And if you're scum, then your most plausible scumbuddy is Zach, which would mean Bogre is innocent (assuming a 3-man scumteam)...

To Everyone Here: What do you guys think about Zach and Yos?

[SaintKerrigan]

Bogre's stancces have looked more firm to me

How so?

[SaintKerrigan]

It's not just that he was voting Neto. It's more that, in my experence, there are very rarely two major bandwagons competing against each other that are BOTH on scum; if one scum starts to get bandwagoned, scum usually push a wagon on a pro-town person to compete with it.

And in my experience, I've seen scum bus when a partner is viewed as scummy by a good number of the players. I don't think this argument is going to lead to anything constructive, so can we drop it?

I don't understand how you could have read that and come away with the conclusion that I was "reluctant" to lynch for Neto.

That's not very compelling. Your given reason for wanting to lynch Neto (as well as Elli) is for voting patterns only. From what you've said, you could just as easily have wanted to vote for Elli. Plus, you

were

reluctant to lynch Neto and Zach on Day 1, and by Day 2 it could easily have been decided (after a nice nightchat) that it was better off to bus Neto rather than try to defend him.

That's complete bull, SK. You've never given any sign that you "thought Bogre was scum". You made a weak attack against him, made an excuse for why you voted someone else instead, and now that I'm questioning you about it, you're trying to come up with some alternate theory to try to get someone other then Bogre lynched. You claim you "Thought he was scum", but you never once really supported a bandwagon on him, at all.

Hey, check this out:

I would vote for Bogre, but my vote would be the hammer, and I'm not ready to end the day just yet. I'm interested in seeing what other people have to say first.

You also seem to be forgetting that I was voting for him on Day 2.

[SaintKerrigan]

I'm not voting Bogre at the moment because:

A: My vote hammers him, and I want some discussion first.
B: You are currently making me feel uneasy, and if you're scum, I doubt Bogre is your partner.

If I had to vote right this minute, my vote would go on Bogre. Since I don't have to vote right this minute, I'm interested in exploring other possibilities. Right now, I'm exploring the Yos/Zach/Neto scumhood possibility.

That has absolutely nothing to do with the point I was just making, which was about the low probability of there being two competing scum wagons; if scum decide to bus, then that also generally means there won't be two competing scum wagons.

(sigh)

My

point was that we're arguing different points of view on what scum will and won't do. I feel that arguing as such is fruitless.

Yup. Based on voting patterns, I was sure that either Neto or Elli had to be scum. And I was correct; not sure why you're trying to talk down 'voting patterns', considering how well that method of scumhunting worked. It really wasn't based on Neto's actions; I didn't think his actions were that scummy, actually, other then his claim, but based on how day 1 turned out, and based on how people were voting at different times, there just weren't that many possible scenarios where he wasn't scum.

If you read that whole post, how many possible scenarios I had with him as scum vs. with him as town, I think it would have been clear that I was really leaning towards lynching Neto, both because of the high chance of him being scum and in order to gather information; there really weren't many possible scumgroups that didn't include Neto.

So why didn't you vote for him, then? Actually, I have an idea. (See below.)

So, first you're attacking me for not attacking Neto, now you're accusing me of bussing him?

I should've said "distance" instead of bus. If you come out and bus him, it would make you look more suspicious. So you have to follow a logical progression first, find a reason to make him look suspicious from your point of view, so then when you

do

bus him, it all looks natural.

That was the excuse you gave for not voting for Bogre, in response to me questioning you about it and accusing you of distancing; basically, I accused you of being scum with Bogre and asked you what you thought about him, and you gave an excuse for not voting for him. Then, within a page, you suddenly started arguing that me and Zach were scum, and that Bogre was innocent.

Because if you and Zach are scum (and assuming there's only a 3-man scum team), Bogre must be innocent. I find it hard to pair Bogre up with either you or Zach. On the other hand, I could see you and Zach as scumpartners. Like I said earlier in this post, I'm interested in seeing what else is out there, and not just lynch the person I see is scummiest right now. Who knows what evidence probing like this can turn up?

Also, I think you were defending Bogre from GLork here:

Also, how is trying to put Bogre at L-1 (which he isn't at, by the way) and forcing him to claim any different from my "rolefishing" earlier? Come to think of it, you've already got a claim out of me. Now you're trying to get a claim out of someone else? This is making me feel uneasy about you. I guess I'll have to ISO you, in addition to Bogre.

This isn't me defending Bogre. This is me asking Glork how what he is doing isn't considered "rolefishing," which I've been accused (by him and other people) of doing. I think you're stretching a bit here.

Hmm. I do agree with you Bogre was misrepresenting Gayle there (I assume that's what you were talking about?) It's interesting; you kept your vote on Bogre for most of day 2, but I don't see much else you said to reinforce your attack on him.

I wasn't feeling well for the latter part of Day 2, if you'll recall. Neto got lynched before I could return and continue my line of inquiry.

Anyway, if you thought Bogre was scum on day 2, then why did you not seem to want to follow up on that today?

Because at the start of the day I was more preoccupied with ISO'ing Haylen and Maemuki, two of my suspects at the time. By the time Bogre came back into the spotlight, I decided I wanted to re-ISO him to make sure I had my suspicions right. When I was done with that, he was at L-1, so I couldn't vote for him. I was also dealing with conflicting suspicions of Bogre and Zachrulez. As I said earlier, I don't think those two can be scum together.

[SaintKerrigan]

Oh, and I don't think Glork ever answered my question regarding the "rolefishing." Glork, mind answering that for me?

[SaintKerrigan]

*pokes Mae because he's so tired of hearing about the rolefishing claim that he really can't defend against except to say that he wasn't trying to do it*

I'm fully aware of the deadline. I'm also aware that it hasn't happened yet. I doubt Bogre is going to escape the noose (unless I get run up as an alternate wagon), so why not wait a while and talk about things, see what we can discover, eh?

[SaintKerrigan]

Oh, and I thought you didn't love me anymore...

[SaintKerrigan]

*screams...silence...

drip drip drip

*

So what do you think about Zach and Yos?

[SaintKerrigan]

Oh hai, Haylen. What do you think about Zach and Yos?

[SaintKerrigan]

I think I still want to straighten Yos' hair, and I think Zach is a pretty nice guy.

Not what I meant, and I think you know that. I'm interested in whether you think either Yos or Zach is scummy.

[SaintKerrigan]

Either of you care to elaborate on your reasons why?

[SaintKerrigan]

Sorry, not what I meant. I was referring to your opinions on Zach and Yos.

[SaintKerrigan]

*is lonely*

[SaintKerrigan]

*is sad because nobody loves him* (Obvious Appeal to Emotion)

Fair enough. May I ask who you think is scummier at the moment, Bogre or me?

I think there's not much more to be gotten out of this day...I'll hammer in a while unless someone beats me to it.

[SaintKerrigan]

Aw, thanks Hayl. Love ya too (not in the same way as your bf though).

Aw, thanks Mae--hey! *is sad again*

I was hoping more people would be on for talking (not that I don't appreciate you guys, Hayl and Mae and Yos). Oh well.

Unvote: Zachrulez. Vote: Bogre.

Day's over, folks. Time to hope we got a scum.

[SaintKerrigan]

For goodness sake. Argh!

Anyway. I made a bit of a reread and instinct told me Glork was scum. My instinct is aweful.

Eeeeh, Glork was obv-town.

Is anybody against a SK lynch today?

Same on Glork, except I wouldn't have said obv-town.

I'm against an SK lynch.

Mae, what happened to your burning suspicion of Haylen? Why do you want to lynch me?

[SaintKerrigan]

By the way, I'm confident now that at least one scum was on the Neto wagon (unless it's a Yos/Mae scumteam). Reason being: I know I'm town, and everyone alive except for Yos and Mae was voting for Neto.

[SaintKerrigan]

I would also dig a Zach vote.

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Mae: Where did you pick up the idea that I didn't trust the Bogre wagon? If I didn't think Bogre had a shot at being scum I wouldn't have hammered.

Also, please answer my questions posed earlier.

[SaintKerrigan]

Mae, what happened to your burning suspicion of Haylen? Why do you want to lynch me?

I would've preferred a Zach wagon, sure, but I was also willing to lynch Bogre.

[SaintKerrigan]

I would vote for Bogre, but my vote would be the hammer, and I'm not ready to end the day just yet.

There's your quote. Now will you please answer my questions?

[SaintKerrigan]

And how do we know it's a vig rather than a Serial Killer? Personally, I'm more inclined to believe 1 Mafioso + Serial Killer right now, given that I see more advantage for an SK or the Mafia to no-kill than a vig deciding to no-kill.

Hmm...Haylen, you wouldn't happen to be an SK, would you? That would just be too coincidental for words.

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Mae: What happened to your burning suspicion of Haylen? Why do you want to lynch me?

[SaintKerrigan]

I wouldn't mind a mass-claim, myself. Although y'all already know my role...

[SaintKerrigan]

Also, as of this post I have to leave for a doctor's appointment. Catch y'all later!

[SaintKerrigan]

Lol I figured out that Haylen was the vig on my way to the doctor's appointment.

Meanwhile,

Vote: Zach

for lying about his role.

@ Haylen: Why not kill Zach today instead?

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Mae: You're dodging my question regarding what happened to your suspicions of Haylen.

[SaintKerrigan]

Lol I figured out that Haylen was the vig on my way to the doctor's appointment.

Meanwhile,

Vote: Zach

for lying about his role.

@ Haylen: Why not kill Zach today instead?

She softclaimed vig... so what? That doesn't really mean anything.

It makes me more willing to believe her than you. The fact that I figured out she was the vig before she claimed makes it doubly so.

[SaintKerrigan]

Actually, there's a much easier way to do this.

Unvote: Zachrulez. Vote: No-Lynch.

Today everyone votes no-lynch. If Haylen is the vig, then scum would be crazy not to kill her tonight. Vig-Haylen should target Zach. If she's the vig, she kills Zach-scum. If she's scum, then killing Zach will reveal he's telling the truth, and we can lynch her tomorrow. If she's scum and doesn't kill Zach, we lynch her anyways. It's the safest possible solution.

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Haylen: At this point, either you or Zach is lying. You both can't possibly be telling the truth. Tonight you promise to kill Zach, under penalty of lynch tomorrow if you kill anyone other than Zach. If Zach is scum, your kill will eliminate him and clear your name (although you'll probably die overnight anyway, as scum would be crazy not to kill you). If Zach flips town, then he's telling the truth, and you'll be lynched for it.

It's as simple as that.

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Elli: My plan guarantees that we catch a scum tomorrow. If we lynch the wrong person today, it's game over. I'm playing the safest course.

[SaintKerrigan]

Actually, never mind my plan. I just saw that Zach didn't immediately counter Haylen. He's defscum.

Unvote: No-Lynch. Vote: Zach.

@ Haylen: Why would I be partners with Zach? I wanted to lynch him since early in the game, and I gave good reason for it, too.

[SaintKerrigan]

[SaintKerrigan]

Yos, at what point today where we going to lynch Mae?

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Yos: Ah, ok.

I lend support to a Mae vigkill tonight, then.

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Elli: How does a Zach-SK pairing make any sense?

[SaintKerrigan]

Hammertime!

========[]

Dooooooooooooooooooooooooo it!

[SaintKerrigan]

Oh, and Haylen, I've seen worse play at Vig. Don't take your performance too harshly.

[SaintKerrigan]

Okay, so right now I'm really suspecting Mae. Hard. But with the rate scummy people have been turning up town, I probably better go and look back at everything before I make a vote.

[SaintKerrigan]

I've made it fairly obvious why Neto's flip changed my view on you, Mae. It's because I don't recall you making much mention of Netopalis, especially on Day 1. Off the top of my head, I don't recall you interacting much with Zach, either.

Did you forget that I was in the beginning of a Town lynch when there was obviously going to be a scum lynch? Yeah. Doesn't sound like town to me.

Huh? If I parsed this correctly, this makes you look

worse

, not better.

Scum can bus. Hard. I think that all of this bussing was orchestrated - hey, there is a slight possibility.

That's true. Scum can also ignore each other.

The way you kept dodging my question regarding your sudden drop of suspicion of Haylen is very suspicious.

Because you gave no reasons to lynch Bogre that's why. Stopping discussion is the only reason I see for a hammer on someone you don't find very scummy.

This was your response to why you suspected me. How could you possibly think I was trying to stop discussion on Day 3? I

prolonged

the day by not hammering until the final hour. I did the best I could to stir up conversation. Also, what proof do you have that I didn't find Bogre very scummy?

Considering the only thing right now that I'm suspicious of Elli for is his early lurking, I think it should be obvious why I suspect you over him.

[SaintKerrigan]

It does - but you ignored it until D4. Just like everybody else. Why did you ignore it until D4? Most people continued ignoring it, so I don't find it scummy. (Does this confuse you? If it doesn't - good, I don't understand it but I'm glad you do.) Seriously. I find it a bit hard to believe that everybody seemed to completely ignore that fact. Remember - Neto died on D2. You had a whole day to talk about it, but you focused on me not being on the Neto wagon. I don't get it.

You are confusing me right now. Just because people don't bring something up right away doesn't mean the thing is not admissible as evidence for or against you. And my case against you wasn't you not being on the Neto wagon, but you practically ignoring the Neto debate.

If you're so suspicious of me, you should vote for me, shouldn't you? Yeah. You're just waiting to see which wagon forms first. Answer this, or the person that will have my vote is you!

I'm not voting you yet because

I don't know if you or Elli is the remaining scum

! If I vote you now and I turn out to be wrong, Elli hammers and it's game over, scum win. I'm not going to vote until I've looked at both of you and considered as many things as I possibly can. The obvious choice of lynch in Lylo is not always the correct one.

[SaintKerrigan]

Actually, reading in ISO now, Mae and Zach have an argument on Day 1. Considering that Zach is already bussing Neto at this point, I find it hard to believe that he would launch an attack on the other scum at this point. I also can't recall much interaction between Zach and Elli. Hmm...

[SaintKerrigan]

Tch, you're telling me that? I've already been mislynched on lylo once, you know. And if you don't know who is scum, why are you engaging on a debate with me? It seems like you're pretty damn sure that I'm scum!

For one, you happen to be online right now, and Elli either isn't or hasn't chosen to make his presence known. For two, engaging in debates like these will help me determine whether or not you are scum. For three, if I was damn sure that you're scum, I'd be voting you. As it stands, I'm not positive that you're scum. You seem too obvious a lynch choice. Also, Elli has been fairly quiet throughout most of this game. It's making me wary of him.

What debate? I was asleep for the entirety of Neto's wagon! I can't go on a theory debate if I don't care about theory in the first place!

I wasn't talking about the actual debate. But you hardly commented on Netopalis at all on Day 1, and that's what's making me leery. Considering that we have one scum bussing another hard, I think the other remaining scum likely wouldn't interact with the busser much unless he or she had no choice.

[SaintKerrigan]

I don't know why I should have commented on the Neto wagon. I believed that Net was scummy. Why should I have unvoted a person that I thought that was scum to vote a person whose case I didn't understand?

You don't have to unvote your favorite suspect to vote someone else. If you were town, though, I would've expected you to take a side on whether Neto was scummy or not, and why.

Going back through your ISO, I see you've commented a couple of times (indirectly) on Day 1 that you thought Neto was scummy, and both times it was in connection with the Gayle-Neto partnership theory. Hmm, I'll have to think about this.

[SaintKerrigan]

Sorry guys, I have some personal/family issues and I'm not sure how active I will be today/tomorrow.
Anyway, First of all Kerri: I don't remember any early lurking from me. I only got prodded once this game. and that was D3 IIRC, so yeah.
Second, from the start of the game to now, I have had a town read on Mae. I also maintain my point that Zach's gambit yesterday could have been to save either one of you because if Yos's plan were followed, whichever one of you is scum is screwed.
The main point I see for Kerri right now is that Kerri-Zach would have meant a lot of heavy bussing throughout the game.
Kerri: You may have answered this already before, but meh. Why were you willing to support the wagon to lynch on Net D1 when there was close to 0 chance of a claim? I understand that you thought he was scum yaddy yaddy yaddy, but doing the whole thing probably knowing that Net wouldn't get on in time disturbs me.
I have to go around now and won't be back until later tonight.
tl;dr : I still suspect Kerri > Mae.

Why should the fact that he wasn't going to be around to claim influence my decision to want to lynch him? I thought he was scum, and if you look at me it was pretty clear that I thought that for a greater majority of the day. I did find Zach suspicious, but I found Netlava even more so. Thus, when the opportunity presented itself to actually lynch Netlava, I took it.

I have to wonder, why couldn't you apply the same philosophy to Mae? She was also on the Netlava lynch.

Also, what makes you think I'm scummy, Elli? I wouldn't mind seeing a post that details what exactly it is that makes you think I'm scummy. Same goes for why you think Mae is town.

[SaintKerrigan]

Well now, how am I supposed to argue against gut? It would help if you gave me a little more to go on than that, Elli.

I guess you and I differ on theory. I lynch people because I think they're scum. Whether they claim or not makes little relative difference to me.

What do you mean Mae wasn't there at the end of Day 1? Or were you referring to some other part of the day by "the crap"?

What do you think of Mae dropping her suspicion on Haylen from Day 3 on Day 4? Or her dodging my questions regarding that?

[SaintKerrigan]

And more theory, but, you're not suppose to argue against gut.

Then how am I supposed to convince you that I'm not scum?

Btw, Mae

was

there for the final bandwagon flop. You should go back and reread the end of Day 1. She was definitely there.

[SaintKerrigan]

I already told you guys: I dropped my suspicion of Hayl because I thought "Wait a damn minute, she doesn't play as this as scum, does she?"

Please quote where you said that, because I didn't see it.

Btw, Mae was there for the final bandwagon flop. You should go back and reread the end of Day 1. She was definitely there.

Eeeeh. So were you. I was on the Net wagon before it was cool, but you weren't. Yeah. Not the best attack you could do on me, SK.

I was reminding Elli that you were on the Netlava wagon as well as me. The reason I got off the Netlava wagon was because I didn't think he'd be lynched. When the subject of alternate wagons came up, I suggested lynching Net instead of Neto or Zach (way to go, me).

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Mae: WTF? The quote you just gave does not give an answer why you dropped your suspicion of Haylen. In fact, it does the opposite. "She wouldn't do this as town"? This is either a horrible typo or gosh-awful retconning.

And it took until Day 5 (after Haylen was dead) to coax this answer out of you. I'm getting less comfortable with you, Mae.

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Mae: WTF? The quote you just gave does not give an answer why you dropped your suspicion of Haylen. In fact, it does the opposite. "She wouldn't do this as town"? This is either a horrible typo or gosh-awful retconning.

And it took until Day 5 (after Haylen was dead) to coax this answer out of you. I'm getting less comfortable with you, Mae.

[SaintKerrigan]

I blame Mafiascum for the doublepost.

[SaintKerrigan]

Anyway, it does. Find any logical explanation for Haylen to be scum. Find any logical explanation for her to be town. If you don't find anything on both fields, she's town. I thought I did, but I was wrong. How many times have you played with her, SK? One, two?

Wait, if you can't find logical explanations for someone to be scum

or

town, doesn't that make them neutral?

This is my second game with Haylen as a player, the first being ongoing.

And I started being less suspicious of her on D4, actually. She wasn't dead then, was she?

You never stated as such until Day 5. When I tried to quiz you on what happened to your stance on Haylen on Day 4, you ignored, then dodged the question.

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Elli:

@ Mae: What happened to your burning suspicion of Haylen? Why do you want to lynch me?

Listen, is that deflection I hear~?

Because you gave no reasons to lynch Bogre that's why. Stopping discussion is the only reason I see for a hammer on someone you don't find very scummy.

[SaintKerrigan]

Nope, not enough Haylen for you methinks.

I know.

I did have a town read on Zach. The only thing that I have where I think that he's scum is the post above.

Why did you think he was scum at that point if you had a town read on him the whole game?

[SaintKerrigan]

Nope, not enough Haylen for you methinks.

I know.

I did have a town read on Zach. The only thing that I have where I think that he's scum is the post above.

Why did you think he was scum at that point if you had a town read on him the whole game?

You bussing him, duh.

And if you haven't played with Haylen for at least 4 times and you don't constantly talk to her, you're not going to understand her.

Wait. Me "bussing" my "partner" made you think Zach's scummy? Sorry, but I don't follow.

Also, are you implying that I was the top suspect for Day 4? It seemed to me that there was no top suspect on Day 4 except for Zach.

[SaintKerrigan]

*pokes*

[SaintKerrigan]

The question I've been wondering is why Zach needed to save

any

of us. I don't think there were people solidly on board with Yosarian2's plan at the time that Zach claimed, or at the least it wasn't vocally stated. Why go out of your way to get yourself lynched when you could simply let your partner take the heat?

[SaintKerrigan]

The question I've been wondering is why Zach needed to save

any

of us. I don't think there were people solidly on board with Yosarian2's plan at the time that Zach claimed, or at the least it wasn't vocally stated. Why go out of your way to get yourself lynched when you could simply let your partner take the heat?