Mini 886 - Popcorn Mafia - Game over!

[Nachomamma8]

Reading up. Shouldn't take me too long to get up a post.

[Nachomamma8]

Xyl:

First off, Xyl's been taking complete and total control over the town, which is something that it's in scum's best interest to do. And I also don't like how he declares people scum as opposed to questioning and trying to persuade the gunbearer of their scumminess instead. Which proved to be an entirely ineffective technique against Bogre.

He begins the attack aggressively, but not effectively. It might just be that I'm bad at seeing his sarcasm, but for seven straight posts (ISO 9-15), all he does is point and tell Bogre he's scum. I also hate people who have to rub their percieved towniness in everyone else's faces, like he does in the following posts:

If I get the gun there is going to be a massacre.

I'm not personally afraid of being shot. Are you?

I'd rather keep a extra townie alive.

3)Who has been the most effective/least effecting in scumhunting?

Most effective is me, because I have to keep up my reputation for arrogance.

I'm always most protown. Least protown would be the scum (Sarag, ortolan, and rewq). I'm protown because I am. Anti-town things I've done... none come to mind.

I find that scum are more likely to repeat how town they are over and over and over again...

And then, after ALL of that, he posts this in response to ortolan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overconfidence_effect

Then, in 97 and 99, he resumes the same cycle he started with Bogre.


Questions:

What makes your over-agressiveness any different from ortolan's?
Are you more confident in your ability than Bogre's as gunbearer?

[Nachomamma8]

Nachomamma, nothing's a scumtell unless I wouldn't have done the same thing as town. Which I'm pretty sure I would have because I am town. But if you want to argue that townies shouldn't be vocal with their opinions, or shouldn't say that they're town if asked, you're welcome to do so.

I don't know what you do as town; I've never played with you before. But I do know that someone leading the town that's NOT the gunbearer is a dangerous thing; this a very special setup where the town's victory depends on someone who isn't scum leading town.

And I don't want to argue townies shouldn't say they're town if asked, but I do want to point out that townies shouldn't have to say they're town constantly. As you said,

The thing we already know is that you'll say you're town.

So why does constantly saying "I'm town" help anything?

[Nachomamma8]

Do you really think that the whole town should do nothing if the gunbearer is doing nothing?

No, I never said that. But I don't think that a single person should lead the town. Do you think that the town should blindly follow your lead?

Trying to spin activity as a scumtell strikes me as really scummy here.

Then explain how I'm spinning activity as a scumtell. I'm pointing out how you're leading the town, and how that's detrimental to town.

Half your examples are responding to questions from the gunbearer. The other half require real stretching to read as "I'm town".

They require real stretching to read as "I'm town". Alright, let's look.

If I get the gun there is going to be a massacre.

Scum can't get the gun. Thus, you're saying you're town. I don't see that as too much of a stretch.

I'd rather keep a extra townie alive.

When town gets shot, another town dies. Thus, you're saying you're town. Not a stretch there either.

[Nachomamma8]

Do you think that it's scummy or not? Yes or no.

Your leading of the town? Yes.

Both of those two are saying something else, and just happen to assume that I'm town. In neither one is "I'm town" the primary intended message.

Alright, I understand this point for the second one, but the I don't really see the point of the first one.

That being said, just because two people are having an argument DOESN'T MEAN EVERYONE HAS TO LURK. (I'm especially looking at you, AlamasterGM and DragonsofSummer).

[Nachomamma8]

RE: Your list: Town reads are composed of someone who agrees with everything you say, a confirmed townie, and yourself. Not that impressive, but hey. It's to be expected coming from you. Other than that... switch me with you, AlamasterGM with ortolan, and you pretty much got my list.

Then you're either stupid or scum. Or both.

You've opted for the scum category, then. At least you're not insulting my intelligence, I guess.

Maybe you should ask whether it's scummy that they're following me.

Okay, I'll bite. Do you think it's scummy that they're following you?

[Nachomamma8]

RE: Your list: Town reads are composed of someone who agrees with everything you say, a confirmed townie, and yourself.

You just dismissed Yosarian2 as "someone who agrees with everything I say".

Yosarian2.

Hah.

Yosarian2 already answered this post for me.

@Nachomamma8: Who else do you you believe to be scum?

You're asking a question that I've already given the answer to.

Dear Maemuki,

Please do something productive to scumhunting and stop assisting Nachomamma's attempt to attack me for other peoples' play.

Love,
Xyl

Attacking you for other peoples' play? If you were half as protown as you seem to think, then maybe that accusation would be legit.

[Nachomamma8]

Attacking you for other peoples' play? If you were half as protown as you seem to think, then maybe that accusation would be legit.

This doesn't even make sense. It sounds like you're saying that what you attacked me for magically changes depending on how protown I am, but that's such obvious bullshit that it can't possibly be what you meant.

Um, no. In 573, you said that accusations of leading the town were basically finding active people who were scumhunting a lot and using it against them. I suggested that if you WERE extremely active and you WERE actually scumhunting, then you would have a point. You aren't, so your point is invalid.

[Nachomamma8]

You say that I'm not extremely active and actually scumhunting, yet for some reason other people are following me, and this is somehow my fault.

You're extremely active. You're not scumhunting.

Unless, of course, pointing to someone and saying "he's scum" is scumhunting.

[Nachomamma8]

You say that I'm not extremely active and actually scumhunting, yet for some reason other people are following me, and this is somehow my fault.

You're extremely active. You're not scumhunting.

Unless, of course, pointing to someone and saying "he's scum" is scumhunting.

I'm not scumhunting, people are just agreeing with me because I'm using mind control.

Gotcha.

Or, your using an Argument from Repetition...

@Dragons: If you're going to dodge a prod, you're going to have to try harder than that. Everyone sees how inactive you are...

[Nachomamma8]

The nacho case on Xyl is terribad. I'm not sure whether this means he's scum or just dumb.

What did you disagree with?

Also, what do you think of Sarag's most recent post?

[Nachomamma8]

You're extremely active. You're not scumhunting.

?

You're going to need to back this up, I think. I think it's pretty obvious that Xyl has made strong logical cases for several people being scum over the course of the game. That dosn't actually mean Xyl is town, of course; he certainly has the ability to fake that as scum. But I really think I need to you explain why he's "not scumhunting".

He has made several good cases for people being scum throughout the game, sure. But for every 1 good post he makes, he has 10 more that are either advice, witty retort that doesn't really add anything to the game, or spam.

[Nachomamma8]

So, if he's made several good cases for people being scum (especally when he's made more cases them many of the other people in the game), then how is he "not scumhunting"?

I suppose it's more along the lines of he's not scumhunting effectively. To say that he's made more cases than many of the other people in the game is misleading because only one or two of his cases have a lot of substance.

Are "advice", or "witty retorts" scumtells, if he is also scumhunting?

If he's giving this advice or answering with witty retorts more than he actually scumhunts, then yes.

(Also, I don't really think any of the posts he's made are "spam", I think most or all of them serve a purpose).

Bogre: crazy or scum? Tonight at 11.

Why are you defending the scum, Yos?

^ scum

^ Kill this guy.

Keep digging, scum.

^ still scum

I wouldn't say all, Yos.

[Nachomamma8]

You really don't think it serves a purpose for Xyl to point out a specific post that he thinks makes a person look more suspicious, to increase the pressure on someone, and to make clear how convinced he was that that person was scum?

It might serve a purpose, but for newer players like me, I need that purpose explained. Pointing to someone and saying they're scum doesn't help me AT ALL; I need a little bit of explanation WHY they're scum. By pointing at someone and calling them scum without explaining, he's also giving them nothing to defend against, which doesn't help the town in the end.

If you had been in the game at the time, would you have agreed with Xyl's assessment that Bogre's reaction to my post looked scummy there? Why or why not?

I can't answer this question. I replaced into the game where Bogre is the gunbearer, making him a confirmed townie, and it just looked like Xyl was calling him scum without a real reason. So bias clouds my judgment on that one.

You could do that for all of those posts; you may disagree with them, you may question Xyl's motive for them seeing as how Bogre came up town, but I hardly think you can call any of them "spam".

I see what you mean now.

[Nachomamma8]

Nachomamma- Heavy More on the basis of Drake and Rewq, but interestingly enough has been primarily knocking at Xyl. (Like Howard) Rewq was very scummy, didn't contribute too much, and wasn't reasoning well.

Bad logic isn't a scumtell.
There's not much I can say to this, really... If there is anything you'd like me to answer, questions help.

Note Nachomamma and HR haven't said anything about each other.

Since I've been around, he's been pretty quiet. Is there anything you'd like me to say about him? One scumtell doesn't make up a case, and I find indirect attacks on people generally considered protown scummy. Other than that, I don't really have much to say.

[Nachomamma8]

Well, I should ideally find someone who is scummy AND would make at least a semi-decent gunbearer if town, at least day 1 when we have relatively little info.

No. You should find someone who is scummy, period.

Cast all thoughts of who would make a good gunbearer from your mind, and never think of them again.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm a little surprised by the choice of gunbearer. At first I was happy that Ortolan would be soon revealed as scum, but now I'm wondering whether scum-Ortolan would risk giving DoS the gun.

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=WIFOM

[Nachomamma8]

My top is Alamaster, but it's not a good idea to shoot a lurker today.

Then comes Sarag, then comes Huck.

[Nachomamma8]

What people do you think I should not shoot today (with your reasoning)?

Xyl & Yos: They're our 2 most protown players right now; they're active, they present good logic, and they're aggressive. Xyl I'm less sure of, but he's being active in LyLo, aggressive, and unafraid, so... protown.

Maemuki: I don't have a good enough read on her. She's lurked into oblivion since her little spurt of activity in the beginning, and I really don't think we should shoot a lurker like her today.

Ort: Ort isn't afraid of going against the crowd, and he's very vocal with his opinions. He calls a lot of town reads, which would be trapping himself in a corner if he was scum. Finally, he wouldn't be stupid enough to attack DoS as strong as he did, then give him the gun.

[Nachomamma8]

Alamaster's still my top pick.

He hasn't been posting that often, or taking a strong side on anything. The only people he attacks or keeps on his top suspect list are people who are under heavy fire in the first place; he doesn't explain any of these reads and they change without warning or explanation. He finds ortolan as obvscum, but he completely fails to explain why...

[Nachomamma8]

Lovely turnaround.

Hmm? Last time I checked, you going from my top suspect to my top suspect wasn't that huge of a leap. And your suspicion of Maemuki just seems like a pitiful attempt to redirect suspicion from yourself: "Hey! Look at her! She posts even less than I do, guys!"

[Nachomamma8]

Lovely turnaround.

Hmm? Last time I checked, you going from my top suspect to my top suspect wasn't that huge of a leap. And your suspicion of Maemuki just seems like a pitiful attempt to redirect suspicion from yourself: "Hey! Look at her! She posts even less than I do, guys!"

[Nachomamma8]

@Maemuki: I literally have no read on you; right now, you're looking like a damn good shot. Could you convince me why DoS shouldn't shoot you, or at least post once every 2 days so I can feel a little better about your slot?

[Nachomamma8]

Nachomamma8 was indecisive on AlmasterGM until late and only mentioned Sarag once. +Scum points.

Indecisive? I'm not exactly sure where you're getting that, but if it has anything to do with AlamasterGM's dying post where he pointed out the "contradiction" in my reasoning against him, you might want to do some rereading. As for not talking about Sarag, meh. I really wasn't active enough on this site to get a good reread in on her.

Xyl: I changed my mind. If you're wondering why, read the exchanges between Yos and I. I would like him to get some of his old activity back, though. (Heh, like I should talk...)

Yos: Yos has been extremely pro-town up to this point; he's been presenting good logic, he's been completely active... Sarag's scumflip also furthered my read on him, based on Sarag's little pokes at Yos, namely ISO 18. She really didn't explain it all that well, and she dropped it immediately when she saw it didn't stick. I also like Yos's ISO 12, where Xyl had been gaining a lot of support for all of his scumlists, and Yos reminded everyone that he was still human. He takes strong suspicions on everything, and his positions are well defended. I also like how he defended HackerHuck yesterday, despite the popular opinion to shoot him.

So... I don't really see where you're getting scum from.

I liked earlier game ortolan more than I like him now. I'd really like him to weigh in on who to shoot since he was wrong with one of his reads, and I'd really like him to explain his bad feeling on Yos more, instead of saying the obvious.

I don't like the Howard-Maemuki charge on Yos, but I like Howard's charge a little more than Maemuki's. Maemuki seems like she's just taking advantage of the opportunity to get Yos shot. I also REALLY don't like how Howard began his attack after ortolan expressed suspicion; that seems to me like Howard realized that a shot on Yos was possible, so he decided to begin an attack.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho - If you were gunbearer and had to shoot someone now, who would it be and why?

Howard.

First of all, his scumpair consists of someone I know to be town, and someone I'm pretty sure is town.

Second of all, I don't like his veiled attacks on Yos and Xyl; the Yos attack hasn't became direct until recently. Check ISO 16, 17, 23, and my favorite, 39.

I also don't like the Sarag-Roark interactions. His attack began on Sarag because of a single scumtell, and he held it over everyone like it was the best scumtell ever, but didn't really explain anything else about how he found Sarag scummy, at all. Although she was pretty much the only person he attacked, his attacks never had really substance to them.

Finally, I find his sudden suspicion of you at the end of the day scummy. You pop onto his suspect list on ISO 34, and his explanation of the suspicion is "he doesn't agree with me on Sarag" (ISO 37).

[Nachomamma8]

@Nachomamma8: That slip was all I needed for my solid scum read on Sarag.

For some reason, I doubt that. Could you link me to a single game where you have pegged scum on a single scumtell?

[Nachomamma8]

I'd really appreciated if ort began to post a little more; he hasn't posted anything of substance in a week.

[Nachomamma8]

Well, I just want more from him. I'm not sure about how I feel about ortolan at this point; the protown confidence I knew and loved is starting to decline, and I need to figure out if it's because he's getting lazy or if he's trying to hide.

Some of his reads seem to be changing too easily and without reason for my taste (like his reads on Yos and Howard), and I haven't really been satisfied by his reasons why... Plus, I just get uneasy when people simply disappear.

Speaking of which, where is Howard?? I know he was talking about site issues, but he is the #1 shot right now, so it'd be nice if he was here to give any final thoughts...

[Nachomamma8]

I returned from my vacation to see my brains blasted out...

But still, good job scum! We fought hard, I'd say. But like Alamaster said, our gun distribution just plain sucked >.>