Mini 909: Nice'n'Fun Mafia (Game Over)

[Nachomamma8]

/confirm

[Nachomamma8]

Hmm...

Hito is making excuses before the game has even started.

And in every game we've played together, we've been of different alignments. This game, I'm town.

In addition, Hito hasn't been scum

yet

.

So, I declare Hito scum this game.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: hitogoroshi

This is obviously the best play of the day.

[Nachomamma8]

Tracker, Flare, and Col.

Why aren't you voting for the confirmed scum?

[Nachomamma8]

Nachomamma; do you know what the Saudi Gazette is?

I didn't when I first read that question. Google tells me it's an English-speaking newspaper printed in Saudi Arabia.

Vote: The Tracker

He's overreacting to the small amount of pressure on him. So I want to see what happens if there's just a little more.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm very interested to hear Hoopla's reasoning, though...very interested indeed.

Why? Do you not agree with the decision she's made?

[Nachomamma8]

Not completely. Sure, I know Millers might want to claim early on to try and avoid the whole flipping guilty off of investigation thing, but there was really no pressure on her right now. *Shrugs* I don't know, maybe I'm reading too much into it but I tend to be wary of early claims.

Do you think that she should've waited until she was under some pressure?

[Nachomamma8]

Have you read your role PM?

It doesn't matter. For today, he's town. Tomorrow, we'll monitor his behavior and see how it changes, and we'll simply throw out everything he's done today out of their minds. Policy lynching based on a playstyle you don't agree with is something I've been through before, and it just plain doesn't work in the town's benefit. Especially when you're suggesting to lynch a playstyle that only affects D1...

As for my Tracker vote, I'm still feelin pretty good about it. He's kept the same vote he has had since his random vote, his activity consists of a bunch of one-liners, and half-baked attacks on various people. He also reacted strangely to pressure on him in the beginning. And, finally, he's too big of a fan of disclaimer language. It makes him seem afraid to actually attack someone.

[Nachomamma8]

And, coming up next, Flareon. I disagree with people who policy lynch. It's pointless and sets the stage for an easy scum mislynch, and guess what? I'm not a big fan of those. So flare, I'd like you to explain just why Quag's playstyle deserves a policy lynch. Hoopla's included in that as well.

[Nachomamma8]

Policy lynching is wonderful and fantastic and full of sunshine rainbows, Nacho. As I said I need to consider whether this specific case merits it, but to say that policy lynching itself is wrong is itself wrong. If you think it's disagreeable why didn't you bring it up on page 2 when multiple players (myself, cyberbob, RC) all mentioned that it is a factor we consider when picking a D1 lynch candidate?

I didn't think that it'd come up day 1. The playerlist was not really policy lynch worthy.

[Nachomamma8]

He is not town. He is not anything at the moment. Until he knows his win condition, there is no way he can work toward it. This has nothing to do with a playstyle disagreement, because he isn't playing the game.

He's playing the game. He's playing the game more than Mindgamer, Cruelty, and others. For all intensive purposes, he is a survivor (better?) day 1, and lynching survivors day 1 is something you do when you're all out of options.

The only way this 'tactic' could possibly be viable is if you don't tell people you didn't read your role PM. The supposed benefit is not creating any obvious links between you and scum partners, as you don't know who they are. But this benefit becomes moot when everyone knows this is your tactic.

Then why should we lynch him for it? If there is no benefit to not reading his Role PM, then what does it matter if he lives Day 1 or not?

Not reading your role PM can only possibly help your scum game (even though it won't), therefore it is scummy/anti-town, as it's an attempt to gain an advantage only as scum.

Anti town =/= scummy. And if it won't help his scum game... then why should I care?

[Nachomamma8]

I'm really annoyed you're trying to give him a free pass to Day 2, because it isn't fair on everyone else risking outing themself (or their partners) as scum and Quagmire to sit in the background twiddling his thumbs until Day 2.

You're trying to lynch Quagmire because you think his style of playing isn't "fair" because he's giving himself an advantage as scum. This would be horrible scum play unless

everyone didn't know his playstyle already

. Now, he's been thrown into the limelight, and he WILL be a top suspect in everyone's minds D2. I'd honestly feel better pressuring and attacking Quagmire tomorrow, when he knows his own alignment.

This isn't the point. If you disagree with people who policy lynch, why didn't you say anything when multiple players said they would be up for a policy lynch D1 on the second page? Why wait until Quagmire specifically is named as a potential target?

How is it not the point?
I don't care what you think about policy lynches until you actually TRY to policy lynch. I didn't notice the usual suspects (Mastin, Zwet...), so I didn't think that a policy lynch would come up. When it did, I protested it.

Remember Open 185, Nacho? Do you remember what ended up being one of the main factors to your scum victory - the fact that your slot hadn't posted for a game day-and-a-half? Imagine if Qooq had been there after kyle's quickhammer, or before the kyle wagon was certain. You can imagine how it would have made it harder for you to win, yes? So why is it that you're allowing Quagmire the SAME thing? Because for alignment purposes, Quagmire is not posting D1 at all. I would lynch someone who never posted for all of D1, because I want to take easily readable players into endgame and a big part of easily readable is 'has posted a lot and commented on everyone.' The thing is, no matter how much he's contributed, Quagmire is indistinguishable from that player who's lurked all of D1. He's told us 'No matter what I do here, it's independent of my alignment. I am going to alignment-lurk all of D1.'

Had Qoop NOT been lurking, it would've made my job a lot easier. All of you guys talked on how protown Qoop was, and the only thing that gave you a bad feeling was Qoop's absence. Also, if you'd like to talk about alignment lurking... Chaco lurked all through day 1. Drowmage lurked all through day 1. Had you policy lynched both of them, there would be no paper trail, and you'd already be down 3 townies, and 1 tracker. You don't lynch null-reads on day 1; you let them get replaced. And in a sense, Quagmire will be replaced Day 2 by a player that actually knows their role.

As for your second point, that can go either way. We know Quagmire's play will be different tomorrow, so why not lynch Tracker today and Quagmire tomorrow? Then we're lynching scummy over anti-town both times. Also, I hate when people try to get a lynch on exchanges (hey, you lynch Quagmire today, we can both lynch Tracker tomorrow).

HAPPY BIRTHDAY HOOPLA

[Nachomamma8]

Aww...

Sorry to here that, Colonel.

[Nachomamma8]

And I think your example is missing a big thing. Yes, we don't lynch anyone who lurks a whole day - because those things happen. But Quagmire has made it his POLICY to not post anything relevant to his alignment d1. It's the difference between coming in D2 and saying 'Shit guys, I didn't post at all day 1!" and walking in D1 and saying, "Hey guys, not gonna post at all today" and that difference is a hell of a lot bigger than nothing.

But he IS posting, and he is drawing a lot of attention to himself. The reason lurking is scummy is not only because they're hard to read, but also because they don't have to give their opinions and anyone, and they also fly under the radar don't get noticed at all. Quagmire is being noticed, he's giving his opinions on things: Now, if a read of his changes, then he'll have to explain why.

[quote="hitogoroshi""]
I really don't like Nacho's idea of a weighting factor (We'll suspect him MORE on D2!) because the fact that Quagmire says, "My actions D1 help me immensely as scum' suggests that THAT DOESN'T WORK.
[/quote]
That "weighting factor" is the same one you're taking into account right now while you're not voting angelmouse. You figure that she'll either show up or get replaced; either way, something will happen that will allow you to get a better read on her.

I haven't updated this yet to include recently completed games, but I doubt town's ability to lynch scum D1 would have gone above random. As far as I am concerned, lynching anti-town play D1 is a viable strategy, as it still gives decent enough odds of hitting scum, but then has the added bonus of eliminating someone anti-town tied in. I think many players overvalue their reads (especially on D1).

This isn't lynching anti-town, though. Lynching anti-town is lynching someone who is lurking, spamming, etc..., because you're pretty sure that the behavior will continue, and you want them gone before LyLo comes around so it doesn't cost you the game.

vote: quagmire

I've decided that under no circumstances I will read my role PM today, mostly because I want to troll Cyberbob and Hoopla some more.

right, because this is helpful.

You're not scumhunting, you're not contributing, you're being wilfully anti-town at this point.


You know what the worst part of this playstyle is? You bring a lot of heat on yourself and distract town entirely (everyone is pretty much tunneled on you right now), so if you are a town power role, you're going to be forced into claiming day 1, thus heavily compromising your ability to help us. It's just fucking bad play.

The way I see it is if you haven't opened your role PM you aren't really playing mafia - you're abusing a mechanic of the game to try and get a cheap ride to the endgame.

It is extremely interesting to see the vehemence with which Nacho is trying to defend Quag here. I am looking forward to his flip very much - as I'm sure he is too, given that he doesn't know what it will be. This so-called "passive scumhunting" has proven itself to be nothing more than a dumb excuse for lurking and posting one-liners (except when his own neck is on the line of course) from what I've seen so far and I honestly do not feel like allowing it to continue.

Unvote,

Vote: Quagmire

- let me know when you're actually playing mafia.

Trying implies you still disagree with me. If you disagree with me, please respond to my posts yourself instead of waiting for Hito or Hoopla to do it for you.

If Quagmire flips town, I'll be excited to reexamine his wagon, to find people like you & cruelty who have been jumping on a wagon at opportune times.
If Quagmire flips scum, I'll be excited to look at people like Mindgamer and The Tracker, who have failed to comment on the Quagmire wagon at all.

Likewise, your FoS on RedCoyote is weak, hypocritical, and mostly meaningless. First of all, do you disagree with the point he made? Second of all, do you think you had a part in this?

@Cruelty: Quagmire doesn't read his Role PM; that includes if he's about to be lynched, I'm guessing.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm not "waiting for Hito or Hoopla to do it for me", I already did it with the giving of my stance on not reading role PMs. Durp.

But you didn't actually respond to anything anyone else posted, now did you?

Why is it hypocritical? Are you sure you know what that word means?

You're FoSing him because he said "I'm not having a part in this any longer", and you said he never had a part. The only part you've had in all of this is jumping on an easy wagon.

You're asking me whether I think I had a part in this? Is there a typo in there somewhere?

Oops, my bad. I mean to say "How have you had any part in this whatsoever?"

As for your question, no.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't think you really get why I FOS'd him.

Then enlighten me.

But you're willing to excuse it.

I'm willing to excuse it because it's his playstyle, and I don't honestly see how it'll help his scum game. Lynching scummy > Lynching annoying/anti-town.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho, your buddying and defense of the tactic reeks of bad play.

Buddying because I'm not on the wagon, okay. But where have I defended the tactic?

Because he's defending the issue until he's blue in the face.

That's horrible reasoning. There are people who are pursuing the issue just as much as I'm defending it.

Tracker, you've officially failed to give an opinion on ANYONE. You're also the only person to not've placed an actual vote yet. Can you rectify this for us?

[Nachomamma8]

Disclaimer language: When you say things

could

be, or

might

be, or use wording to show a disconnectedness with your points, just making you less liable for them.

Now, if you're going to say that you're not a fan of someone's play, then you have to explain why. I'm not a fan of the Yankees, but that doesn't mean I'll be voting for them anytime soon... >.>

[Nachomamma8]

Ah, I see what you mean. Honestly, it's just how I talk. Anyway, I did explain why I'm not a fan.

Of Hoopla's play? Other than her miller claim, I haven't heard anything about Hoopla. And explaining what you mean without using the words of people definitely help to convince me of your case a little more.

[Nachomamma8]

the former's chainsaw defence of Quag in particular is rubbing me the wrong way.

It's hardly a chainsaw defence, Cyber.

Honestly I thought we were talking about Flareonage.

Nope. We're talking about Hoopla. Now, what about her play are you not a fan of?

[Nachomamma8]

Seriously guys, one day, thirteen hours. Vote tracker.

[Nachomamma8]

Well, I don't see a Quagmire lynch as particularly horrible, but I still seriously want a Tracker lynch over a Quagmire lynch...

[Nachomamma8]

Oddly enough, I don't find the Tracker as scummy anymore. However, I'm really liking the Mindgamer wagon now. He wasn't really that involved yesterday, and didn't take a stand on anything. Add 1 quickvote and a town read on Hoopla, and what do you get?

Vote: Mindgamer

[Nachomamma8]

Then why are you voting Hito as opposed to Tracker?

[Nachomamma8]

CPR Doctor flip.

We either have an SK with you around, or we don't. If there is a high chance of there being an SK, it's most likely Hoopla (I can see a Tracker finding Mafia and Vig, and an FBI Agent - SK Combo).

Now, I find it highly unlikely that you would decide to claim FBI Agent as opposed to just straight cop, and the CPR Doc flip just solidified that in my mind.

[Nachomamma8]

why Hoopla?

This is a mini normal game we're playing in. So, if Hoopla knows she's not investigation immune, she has the most to gain from claiming Miller.

[Nachomamma8]

Re: Your case against me:

Just because I'm not as verbose as you are doesn't mean that I'm scum, first of all. Lesse... I was the main proponent against Tracker yesterday, and the main anti-Quag lynch proponent yesterday as well. And could you provide ISO numbers to where I fell into IIoA? Because I'm pretty sure you've been doing it far more than I have.

Now, the one main opinion (after me saying Tracker was scum and we shouldn't lynch Quag of course) that Quag wasn't particularly horrible was me stating that I was willing to lynch Quagmire instead of letting a no-lynch come. I'd say that "contridiction" was a hell of a lot more town than yours: You were Mr. Let's Kill Quagmire the whole day, and when the wagon had gained far too much momentum to stop, then you mentioned that you were feeling doubts. Seems like a cheap way to gain tow points in my eyes.

[Nachomamma8]

ISO 3, ISO 5, ISO 6, and ISO 23 are just questions and nothing else. You also have posts like ISO 17 where'll you define a point or something and then slip out. You were voting Tracker the entire day - but you made lots of posts where you offered no scum reads and never once stopped to say, 'Hey, other townies, vote tracker.'

Erm, none of those posts show IIoA in the slightest. I scumhunt by asking questions; this gives me better reads on people. How else am I supposed to figure anything out?

ISO 17 is the answer to a question.

And I also fail to see where you gave any scumreads the entire day; you only gave your opinion on a policy lynch, then joined the Tracker wagon. You didn't really explain your vote on him, minus the fact that he was contributing less than Quag, a point I explained before.

I tried to kill the Quag wagon and start the Tracker wagon after I thought about it. You were voting tracker the whole day, yes, but the only time you ever asked anyone else to join it was when you quoted me saying it. Do you not know the difference between voting for someone and wagoning them? You put a very weak vote on Tracker (it was a pressure vote at the time), and held on to it the whole day without ever making it strong.

And, conveniently enough, it took you until 5 days before deadline to have your little epiphany. And asking people to join =/= gaining strength for your vote. I was spending most of my time trying to derail the Quagmire wagon, and until that was done, I didn't see most of you voting for else. What was I supposed to do, sneak in a "Look at Tracker! He's still not contributing!" every 5 seconds? Would that make it strong enough for your standards?

[Nachomamma8]

In other words, if hito's switch didn't sit well with you, why are you only bringing it up now after he explained his suspicions of you, rather than earlier? It's almost like a genetic fallacy:

hito switched his position on Quagmire during D1, therefore hito is unfit to call anyone out for flipping.

I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of his position on me. As town, you can't call someone scum because they're doing something you are.

Why would you use such a weak argument for a vote on me when there are so much better reasons?

So much better reasons to vote you? Also, I'm not sure what purpose your little chart was supposed to accomplish...

I'm also finding it strange how Nacho thought I was lynch of the day yesterday and all of a sudden he has no interest in me.

I explained this is ISO 24. If you think my reasons are strange, say so.

And then you did a complete 180. Just a note.

Lynching randomly was better than no-lynching on Day 1.

[Nachomamma8]

But it doesn't tell us anything about YOU. I suppose IIoA is the wrong word, call it active lurking instead. Just asking a question tells us as much about you as if you had poked your head into the thread, said 'margarine is not an acceptable alternative to butter', and left again. Questions are a privilege you earn to add along with your content posting; to ask that we take your questions and CALL them content won't fly.

It's not my duty to give you a read on me. It's my duty to develop reads on other people, and make the town see why my reads are so. Sure, that doesn't give me the right to do anti-town things, but for all intensive purposes, if you need to get a better read on me, then you need to ask more questions.

*shrug* nothing to say here, other than that with Quag deliberately trolling the town I'm surprised I managed to get over it at ALL.

It's not like you really gave him a chance. You attacked him for his playstyle. There's not much you can do in that situation EXCEPT for troll.

more to derail the Quagmire wagon than just yelling 'no one can vote quagmire today, we have to give him lynch immunity while he trolls us!'

The town was obsessed with Quagmire Day 1. And there was no way in hell that I was going to build some amazing, irrefutable case against Tracker that would end the wagon in the first place. So I pointed out why it was a bad idea, and I "argued it until I was blue in the face".

Only with 'compromise on a lynch' replaced with 'take the easy lurkervote'.

Wouldn't the easiest lurker-vote to be vote Mindgamer? He has more votes on him, and he hasn't exactly improved his play lately.

[Nachomamma8]

Alright, I phrased that wrong. It's not my job to make sure everyone can read me; it's my job to simply give content that will allow them to do so. Lurkers are bad because they prevent everyone else from doing their job, and they make themselves another unknown in a game with what is already far too many of them.

I took my position on Quagmire because it was a random lynch, and we were voting someone who we KNEW was going to stop lurking Day 2 instead of someone that was posting even less than Quag was, and we didn't know if it was going to change, ever.

Nacho, it is imperative that you do more than ask questions and not try to make others force content out of you.

If you think this is what I've been doing, then I'd review the thread again. I've been posting plenty of content if you'd just open your eyes. And if you disagree, what do I need to comment on?

[Nachomamma8]

Why?

[Nachomamma8]

I'd happily support a Mindgamer or cruelty lynch.

I would lynch Hoopla, AGar, Angelmouse, or Tracker at deadline without too much protesting.

[Nachomamma8]

Hoopla was a town read.

Yesterday, I said that. Earlier today, I said that she had the highest chance of being the SK, if there is one. As an SK, claiming miller is a pretty good way to go, and lately the positions she's been taking (lurker votes, but not jumping on any wagons) have smelled strongly of self-preservation.

The Tracker wasn't that scummy to you anymore.

Yeah, but that doesn't mean that I'd no lynch over lynching him.

[Nachomamma8]

Wouldn't wagoning someone else available, ie; Mindgamer, be a better way to do the self-preservation thing?

Um, no. If you're an SK, you don't know who is town and who is scum. Joining a bandwagon that could go to a lynch is something SKs don't like to do because it IS a possible mislynch, and it is possible that you might have to post reasoning for it. Lurker votes are safe because it is generally considered a pro-town thing to do (hey, look! I'm getting rid of a non-contributer!), you don't really have to have that much reasoning to back it up (she's lurking. 'nuff said), and people don't normally get lynched just for lurking on Day 2.

I'm laughing at the SK thing though - why would you even attempt to use this as a genuine point? There was no NK. It would be such a bad play to go after a supposed SK out of paranoia, rather than trying to lynch mafia.

Nice misrepresentation. Although I must admit, I should read through the game again because I was pretty damn sure Cyberbob didn't just disappear into thin air. And I would go after a supposed SK before no-lynching, whether "out of paranoia" or not. Wouldn't you?

[Nachomamma8]

Opening day post was #312. Thus, you are lying.

Well, I stand corrected... Hoopla still isn't a strong enough town read to no-lynch instead of lynching her.

[Nachomamma8]

If we are scrambling for a lynch at deadline, we have such low chances of actually hitting scum. If we want to lynch scum, we need to organise it before it's too late.

Congratulations, you're stating the obvious. Instead of just saying things that sound pro-town, why don't you do something that'll make sure we don't have to scramble for a lynch at deadline (i.e. actively scumhunting, being more aggressive on a wider range of people, actually making a case on someone...)

Speaking of which, your case on RC is weak. Try harder, please. What do you think of Mindgamer? What do you think of Tracker?

[Nachomamma8]

Ed, what happened to post 446? Couldn't find any alternatives you liked?

[Nachomamma8]

Massclaim?

If so, cruelty or I should go first.

[Nachomamma8]

Vanilla.

Hito, you can go.

[Nachomamma8]

No, don't prod Nach because he's posting right now. He's been active on site because he's been catching up in other games >.>

Vote: Snow White

I had a bad feeling on Tracker beginning of the game... Now, with this fudged-up claiming business, I can gladly lynch the slot . Hito, I don't really think Tracker is a lying Vanilla Townie, but that's just me.

Oh, and p.s.? RC and any others who think Faraday is scum, you guys are wrong. Completely and utterly wrong.

Scum other than Snow White is cruelty, then one of hito/EdFrost.

[Nachomamma8]

I can give more content, since I am here... anything in specific you want me to comment on?

[Nachomamma8]

Wait, what?

I'm so confused right now.....

[Nachomamma8]