Mini 914 ~ Mafia Reverberation (Game Over!)

[Jahudo]

Let me ask you something. Now that Zoraster's wagon has (unfortunately) died down, have you seen any posts from that direction?

Not since Friday when he had 4 posts. But I find it more telling that in those 4 posts, he only talked strategy.

He's also become a reason he's voting MO.

The Hydra (Mighty Orbots) is scummy.

A few long posts, but little in the way of content.

Yes, he's tried to get some lurkers active, but other than that the content of his posts is almost all "I'm a hydra" related and some generic questions that don't take a stand on anyone. Active enough to escape notice for lurking, inactive enough to escape notice for anything else. Mighty Orbots is the scum.

Reason in bold.

@zoraster: why have you not questioned MO, or commented on his latest posts, since voting him?
what do you think about some of the other wagons? anyone you'd pick as a second best option right now?

Incant: zoraster

[Mighty Orbots]

Let me ask you something. Now that Zoraster's wagon has (unfortunately) died down, have you seen any posts from that direction?

Not since Friday when he had 4 posts. But I find it more telling that in those 4 posts, he only talked strategy.

You done stole my thunder. Stop skipping ahead.

[Vi]

At last, the Luxomen column was at its full (controllable) strength. The gathered cultists averted their eyes in half-reverence, half-fear of the milky, tumbling mass stretched high in the center of the room. Those that were standing in the conduits across the room started to quiver noticeably as they started to feel the brush of death, disintegration blowing across their faces.

Judgment - unstoppable fate - was coming. Quickly.

---

Incantation:

:arrow:

Sotty7 (P-4)

~

SerialClergyman

,

SpyreX

,

-INCANT-

:arrow:

SerialClergyman (P-4)

~

VP Baltar

,

Jazzmyn

,

Sotty7

:arrow:

zoraster (P-4)

~ Mighty Orbots,

Nachomamma8

,

Jahudo

Mighty Orbots (P-6) ~

zoraster

,

Sotty7

Rhinox (P-6)

~

Porkens

Nachomamma8 (P-6)

~

Rhinox

Porkens (P-6)

~

Herodotus

No Purge (P-7)

~

Jahudo

-The Lynch threshold has normalized.

--At Intensity η, it will take

8

7

Incants to Purge...
--The Intensity will increase on Thursday, February 11, 2010...

[Jazzmyn]

(intentional lurking is barely a scumtell)

I strongly disagree. [soapbox] I am getting sick and tired of scum getting away with intentional lurking in games because the site's 'conventional wisdom' says not to lynch lurkers just for intentionally lurking. I think the so called 'conventional wisdom' is wrong, wrong, wrong and I really hope that it dies an ignoble death sooner rather than later. [/soapbox]

Jazzmyn gets points for squeezing a category for her reads in between town and leaning scum called 'town/leaning scum'. You put those kids in their place!

I don't know what this means. Please explain.

Jazzmyn either intentionally or not missed the point - she asked a question that had been answered twice previously.

I didn't read it that way at all. I read it as you avoiding a legitimate question.

I tried to get to understand the zoraster case, I even asked for reasons earlier, but few concrete have been provided. In my opinion, it's always worth being suspicious of cases where someone explains what someone else meant. For example:

I wasn't "explaining what someone else meant" - I was giving my take on what someone wrote. You know, reading, analyzing, and coming to a reasonable preliminary conclusion: aka scumhunting.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

VP should know better about my town meta, but I'll forgive him because he's pretty.

I don't think you are playing at all like you did in our last game together, in which you were town.

I don't think I've ever played with SC before. Do you happen to have a link available? (It would be easier than trawling through Google searching since the profile search function here is presently disabled).

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Additionally, pushing the game forward when with a decreasing purge number being a nice bottle for the proverbial scum teat is a OK.

I feel a little bit silly having to ask this, but what does "a nice bottle for the proverbial scum teat" mean?

Regards,
Jazz

[SerialClergyman]

Games in which as town my activity is much lower than average early:

with VP in /inv 4, where he was scum and actaully attacked me for lurking D2 [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewt ... your power
No frills mafia.

Games in which I as scum have had low activity early:

None.

Games in which I as town have tunnelled early:

Quick and dirty with VP
No frills mafia.
GIF mafia
Hambargarz

The game Hero talked about is here:
Amished Mafia

Sotty, I've also played with you in semioldguy's game where you did very well as scum in a very difficult position.

The game you bring up, Webcomic Wars I did indeed tunnel on a townie as scum, but I was 100% convinced he was the enemy scum because our night kill failed on him the night before. You can see that by the mafia QT, a link of which was posted in game.

However - I will freely admit to tunnelling on people as scum in at least one other game. But the meta attacks so far have been:

a) You are less active
- I've been low on activity as town early before and never as scum.
b) You are tunnelling
- I've done that often as town and scum.

I think I can essentially prove those just by games I've played with VP, which is why I was so insistent he should know better. Plus he's in another game with me and knows I haven't been posting much recently (you can all search me, down spike in activity over the last week ro two).

I'm not typing all this up to say how town I must be (self-meta never works on proving townliness), just that bad meta attacks are bad.

There have been a few odd arguments floating around.

If you see a weak wagon start and yet it quickly grows to a sizeable number, who is likliest to be scum on that wagon? Is it more likely that scum started the weak wagon and town all sheeped their way on without thinking about it, or is it more likely that town started a wagon and scum jumped on the wagon?

Your reason for voting Porkens was "he was easiest to test with pressure".
Sotty says "why porkens out of everybody?"
You say "best target for thing I'll explain later" or "for something I find scummy" or "something and this is not a random vote."

Nope, no parody. I just want to have votes on you without really explaining it for a little while.

Finally - I have tried to look at Zoraster, I asked for a decent case and explained why I thought what was presented was poor. I'm not convinced on Sotty but I've got nowhere else for my vote to be. The second best option is Jahudo, who is giving me Ojanen-esque scum vibes.

Jazzmyn - my point was that putting words in people's mouth is not

good

scumhunting. As I showed with my facetious example, it's possible to take almost any sentence from any post and 'analyse' it in such a way that shows a scum motivation for it. It's just not convincing. Something like Jahudo's voting record or Sotty's Spy/Serial case doesn't depend on interpretation - they're both just there, concrete. I don't see much of anything in the case against zoraster other than that sort of analysis and the lurking charge.

[SerialClergyman]

knew I should have previewed. Sorry about the first bit failing tags. Should read:

with VP in /inv 4, where he was scum and actaully attacked me for lurking D2 [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewt ... your power
No frills mafia.

[SerialClergyman]

I forgot one last meta thing:

He's been calling Spy obvtown too hard

Happily, this is a very common feature of my play (scum and town). I'm very vocal about town reads and trust them more strongly than my scum reads. I even spent a period of games where all I did on D1 was look for townies and was prepared to lynch anyone who I couldn't directly state was town. Spyrex and VP have definitely seen my keenness for town-calling up close.

[VP Baltar]

For the record SC, I don't think I said anything about your activity really meaning anything about your alignment. I'll look at the links you provided when I get a chance to see if I think you actually tunnel as town or not.

[Jazzmyn]

Wait, what is the scum teat in this analogy? Late incantations? Is this a town tell on SC, or a byproduct?

I asked this of Spyrex above, but from your response here, it sounds like you know the answer, too: what does "the scum teat" mean?

I've actually been looking at SC as a possible lyncher. His play makes more sense as that than scum, because he wouldn't have to survive that long.

I hadn't thought of that. I've never played in a game with a lyncher before so I can't say that I know how to distinguish scum play from lyncher play, but from reading the role PMs in the opening post, I can at least glean that a lyncher certainly could get to his win condition pretty quickly, particularly in a game with multiple purges in a single day.

From the opening post, there is also a possibility that a lyncher has that lyncher penalty attached to his role, which would (just thinking out loud here) perhaps make a lyncher not want to do a whole heck of a lot of scumhunting for fear of pointing out problems with the posts of his 'penalty' players, thus helping to build wagons on them, which, if successful, would cause him to lose the game.

For those with experience with lyncher games, is it the case that a lyncher typically, in the circumstances above, would tend to focus on a small number of players rather than looking at all other players? Or are there tells/styles/clues that one should be looking for to spot that kind of role?

We don't need to purge SC, because I'd rather find the mafia-types. We don't have to keep Sotty alive if we think he's in the mafia.
Thoughts on this?

Does a lyncher typically have to lynch exclusively town or exclusively scum or are his assigned targets randomly assigned? Because if it's typically townies, or even random, then I would just as soon purge both a mafia and a lyncher. A lyncher who has no need to scumhunt and who only wants to push particular lynches to meet his own win condition, heedless of whether his target is town or not, is not really of value, so I'd just as soon not help him attain his win condition.

But if it's typically scum that a lyncher is after, then I would prefer to keep a lyncher around for a while and let him help with actual scumhunting. He can then attain his win condition and help us at the same time.

Regards,
Jazz

[SerialClergyman]

VP -

Also now is the time to Unincant, Incant: Serialclergyman for playing completely against his

normally active

and questioning town meta.

That's what I interpreted the bolded section to mean, I could have misunderstood.

Plus I was correctly accused of lurking around when I wanted to see if Jahudo would vote after making his point against Sotty. So activity has come up with regards to me being scummy.

I absolutely do tunnel, especially early. Sometimes I'm right and sometimes I'm wrong but it's hard to shajke me off a case I think is decent. And 'don't tunnel' isn't useful - you need a better case to go TO if you want to not tunnel. That was the whole point of me trying to uderstand the zoraster case.

Anyway - Hambargarz is probably my absolute worst tunnel, so check that out. No frills and Quick and Dirty were both tunnelled but both on scum. If you need more then I'm sure I have them around. Oneo f the major purposes of the looking for town experiment was specifically to try to cut out that kind of behaviour. (The other, incidentally, was to be more active on D1 lol).

[SerialClergyman]

I'd respond to the lyncher stuff, but I'm not sure what I can say other than I'm not the kind of player that would be that direct. If I were a lyncher, even if I got Sotty lynched ina desperate attempt, I'd still have to survive the inevitable repercussions the next day, which doesn't seem like good strategy. The key to a lyncher is survival, in my opinion.

But more importantly, it seems to me to have an easy solution, if you think I'm a lyncher just don't let me on the wagon. I'd be happy if my suspects are lynched with me on the wagon or not.

[Herodotus]

@Mighty Orbots - can we expect Zorblag to post?

@Serial - would you support purging Porkens today?

[Vi]

Nikanor temporarily replaces Nachomamma8. Welcome him!

[Mighty Orbots]

The meta talk is really making me cringe.

@Mighty Orbots - can we expect Zorblag to post

I don't know. I honestly don't.

Here's a paraphrase of his last post (Jan 28th) in our QT:

I'm swamped with RL stuff and only caught up in my other games. I'll try to post some stuff here tomorrow but you'll need to keep flying solo for a while.

-Troll

[Mighty Orbots]

EBWOP: Ohnoes it's Nikanor. We're doomed.

I said "Welcome him" *smack* ~Vi

[VP Baltar]

Troll honestly does seem to be busy with RL. I don't care so much about his absence at this time.

[VP Baltar]

The key to a lyncher is survival, in my opinion.

Not really because if your targets are NK'ed you lose. The key to being a lyncher is getting your lynches as fast as possible.

Anyway - Hambargarz is probably my absolute worst tunnel, so check that out. No frills and Quick and Dirty were both tunnelled but both on scum. If you need more then I'm sure I have them around. Oneo f the major purposes of the looking for town experiment was specifically to try to cut out that kind of behaviour. (The other, incidentally, was to be more active on D1 lol).

So do you think your looking for town experiment was a failure then since you seem to have returned to the tunneling style?

That's what I interpreted the bolded section to mean, I could have misunderstood.

Ah, yeah. I guess it was partially meant that way, but I was more meaning actively hunting scum than anything. Your posting less frequently was corroborated in our other ongoing, so I couldn't care less about that. I just expect to see you trying to figure out who the scum are when you are here, which I'm not really seeing with the Sotty wagon.

[Sotty7]

Hmm, perhaps with the vehement desire to get you lynched?

Which was followed by a complete fall of the face of the earth until he started getting votes.

Anyways, ok then. So I didn't comment on your wagon until post 10, and when I did (before I was prompted) I said I prefered other lynches (aka indifferent). Thats scummy because...?

Scum want to commit to as little as possible so that they can dictate an opinion as needed. If my wagon really took off you could suddenly want to hammer for example.

Serial, you're right. I had forgotten about that Semioldguy game, maybe because I was lynched pretty quick. I see your point about tunneling just being something you do, I will review the links you provided a little later (I am somewhat pressed for time today.)

I'm not convinced on Sotty but I've got nowhere else for my vote to be.

This is a big leap back from your initial attacks on me. What happened?

The second best option is Jahudo, who is giving me Ojanen-esque scum vibes.

How do you mean?

[Porkens]

Welcome!

Everyone who's at L-4 can swing, for all of me. Other's can live, including Rinox for now.

[Jahudo]

SerialClergyman, you have an interesting sounding meta but I won't hold it for or against you. I've played and won two games as a lyncher and love the role (hahaha kmd), so I've been looking for possibilities in this game from the start.

I'm not convinced you're a lyncher, and could see you as town before mafia at this point, but if you were a lyncher then sotty looks most like your target. It would be enough for me to see you vote someone other than Sotty at deadline. Maybe we can arrange something, as long as we purge zor too.

@Jazzmyn:

The scum teat is the fact that an apathetic town leads to a lower number necessary for a lynch - which lets wackier hijinks happen. Anything that is actively trying to push things forward in a direction versus stagnation in the early phase is a slight town tell. Of course, if Sotty flips scum its a bit more. If Sotty flips a scum PR its pretty much slam dunk.

RE: Good posting:

Scum want to commit to as little as possible so that they can dictate an opinion as needed. If my wagon really took off you could suddenly want to hammer for example.

She makes a good point here. It's okay if people don't explain who is most townie for why (which helps scum direct nk), but Rhinox left himself open to picking sotty as a 3rd choice overall and a 1st viable choice for no reason:

I'm still thinking a porkens or nacho lynch are better than sotty as well.

Also I find Rhinox's obliviousness to Nacho's V/LA status kind of suspect. Your focusing on him and don't even know he's been on mod-acknowledge V/LA?
Rhinox, Why are you still trying to prod him?

[Rhinox]

Also I find Rhinox's obliviousness to Nacho's V/LA status kind of suspect. Your focusing on him and don't even know he's been on mod-acknowledge V/LA?
Rhinox, Why are you still trying to prod him?

I completely missed it, and didn't even realize it until he was temporarily replaced on this page. I blame it on the orange text blending into the mafSepia background. And probably because I was too busy rofling over Vi's modkill of crymeariver.

But why is that suspect? Is it pro-scum to pretend to be oblivious to a V/LA?

@Sotty: I feel like your trying to fabricate something. I commented on your wagon and spoke out against it, before being prompted, by saying I preferred others. Does that sound like I was waiting to hop on your wagon if it took off?

I'm also still waiting to hear about those other big thing

S

you claimed I was avoiding mentioning.

@porkens: why so apathetic? do you really think all 3 of sotty, SC, and zor are scum together? because I just can't see sotty and SC being scum together.

Since nacho isn't around to answer my questions, he'll have to wait until he returns.

incant: porkens

[Porkens]

Call it the day 1 blues if you like, I guess.

I don't think there's any possibility that they are all scum, and it's probably unlikely that 2 of them are anti-town. But 1 of 3? Sure.

Maybe they aren't great lynches, but they aren't BAD lynches by any stretch.

[SerialClergyman]

Porkens, I like you. I even derailed a frivolous bandwagon on you earlier taht some chump started.

But I'm not getting your play. We have 3 wagons, all at L-4. Some of them are attacking each other, some not. You're sitting off to the side saying that you're cool with lynching any or all of them. I couldn't tell why you wanted to lynch those specific three other than they are currently the leading wagons, what it would mean if one or some of them were scum, I don't see much desire to differentiate between the group.

So what's the haps? Where do you want this day to go from here?