Mini 922 - Mafia in Mo Town [Game Over]

[Netopalis]

Here. Just realized that I forgot to watch this topic. Sorry! I'll post before the day is over after I have a chance to reread.

[Netopalis]

Nobody suggested massclaiming - Paranoia probably thought that it would be brought up since he's a newbie and doesn't yet know that D1 massclaims are almost never done on this site.

I don't particularly like Bob's vote on DRK. He put on a second vote without a lot of reasoning behind it. It's a light tell, but it is one nonetheless.

Vote: AlmightyBob

Finally, I'd like to point out the interesting little vote exchange between Alamaster and Kyle. Both are voting for the other, which is interesting at this stage in the game, especially as they are the only ones voting for each other. This could either be read as an OMGUS or as an intentional distancing. Again, an extremely flimsy lead.

[Netopalis]

AlmightyBob: Fair enough. That reasoning wasn't exactly clear in your original vote.

Unvote

Kyle: Why do you feel that people would target you for a policy lynch?

[Netopalis]

You've been called a floater. This is not the same as a policy lynch argument. It is also correctable. So, why are you so nervous?

[Netopalis]

It didn't look to me like he was serious, nor that the vote that he was talking about was serious. I figured it was just another excuse for a random vote, since most players like giving faux justification for their random votes. Honestly, though, I really hate the random votes thing. I think it's pointless and usually ends up lynching town.

[Netopalis]

Bob: I can link you to a page 1 RVS lynch, if you'd like to see it. Sure, it involves a self-hammer, but the point is that it has happened before. I've also been lynched for objecting to a page 2 3-person bandwagon before that was based on little to nothing. To put it simply, random votes are contrary to my thesis of the game. That's why I've been experimenting with the opening questions in newbie games lately.

[Netopalis]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12804

It actually, along with attempts to ruin some other games, got Saberwolf banned.

[Netopalis]

For the record, I was simply stating that I don't like it and won't participate in it, not that I was demanding its end. Quite honestly, I've found that when I do participate in the RVS, I screw it up somehow...So, I generally wait until I'm useful to contribute heavily, which is in the later part of D1 and the subsequent days.

[Netopalis]

No idea. Not enough information yet.

[Netopalis]

It was directed at me. I answered that I didn't have an answer, as per the post that prompted the question.

[Netopalis]

Scenario: Try it.

[Netopalis]

Agreed. I have absolutely nothing to base a read on, so anything I would do would be just randomly accusing people based on not a whit of evidence.

[Netopalis]

Yeah, but that's not what you

said

, now is it? I knew that your threat was ludicrous, but I was curious to see if you could back it up. Clearly, you couldn't. As I've explained, every time I try to give substantial content when I have none, I've proven to be wrong. So, I'm going to wait until I have something to say to say it.

[Netopalis]

Both yourself and Bob answered my questions efficiently, and I have nothing else to go on. I'm also not stating that I think we should just drop what we're doing or anything, just that in games in which I am town and have participated in the early stage of D1, we've tended to do a lot worse than in games in which I am town and have not participated in the early stage of D1. I can provide a really extreme example of why this holds true, if you'd like.

[Netopalis]

Sorry, I said efficiently when I meant effectively. Bah.

[Netopalis]

I didn't say it was a bad reason, I said that there was no reason. I don't like putting more than a single vote on a player without a reason. Truth be told, I hate putting any votes on anybody without a reason, but second votes are scummier than first votes.

[Netopalis]

Go for it.

I see people post things like Bob did on the end of the post there all the time, and they don't really mean them, just like you didn't mean the whole "Everybody pile onto this vote for the first page!" bit. So, I didn't take it as a serious reason.

[Netopalis]

Sakako: What would you prefer that I do? Not respond? I can do that, I guess.

[Netopalis]

If I feel that there is a misunderstanding about what I said, I generally repeat myself unless I have done so several times. It's generally seen as pro-town to do so.

[Netopalis]

Monkey: The reverse, actually, if you read that. I hate all random votes, but random votes which are the only vote on that player are excusable because they are so common.

You can feel free to suspect me for this. I honestly could care less. I've been lynched for it before, but I'm not going to change my playstyle to appear more townie, since that's what scum players do, and since I don't want to ring any false bells based on that. I can link to at least 3-4 games in which I make these same arguments as town, and if you check my Wiki page (Last updated November 2009, I really need to update), I emphasize the same sentiments.

[Netopalis]

Fair enough. You can think that. It's something that I say repeatedly, though, and I think that most people who say that they feel with some certainty that somebody is scummy within the first 4 pages is lying in an attempt to look more pro-town, regardless of their alignment. There is simply not enough information on which to base a solid, logical and cohesive case. This is slowly changing, but prior to this discussion, there was absolutely nothing to work with.

[Netopalis]

That second sentence is a mush. It should be:

"...and I think that anybody who says with any amount of certainty that a specific player is scummy within the first 4 pages is lying in an attempt to look pro-town, regardless of their actual alignment."

[Netopalis]

Incidentally, just for a bit of added value, I'm leaning town on Sakako right now. His play is consistent with the newbie town profile at this point. That being said, I'm going to sleep on it and think about it some more.

[Netopalis]

I'm not exactly sure what you find scummy about it, nor how exactly my defense was lousy and/or what you would consider to be strong evidence in a defense. It seems as if your whole point in asking the question to begin with was to ask me a question in which any defense would appear to be weak, allowing you to attack me, which is convenient as I already have the most votes.

[Netopalis]

Reckoner: I don't think so, at least, not at this stage of the game. I think that Monkey is the more likely of the two, but I don't see a lot of connection between them, nor do I see obvious distancing.

[Netopalis]

Monkey and Sakako are a potential scumteam.

Discuss.

Random Player X and Random Player Y are a potential scumteam(as long as its not me). Discuss.

This was absolutely a terrible defence post and I recommend more votes on you with quick haste.

[Netopalis]

Oh, and incidentally..

Vote: MonkeyMan576

[Netopalis]

Your analogy is flawed. The reason that was able to work was because you were scum and had presumably slipped up elsewhere. I also think it's marginally scummy that this is the example that you're choosing to hinge things on - it indicates (at least to me) the approach of the game from a perspective of not getting lynched vs. finding scum.

[Netopalis]

Oh, and BTW:

[Netopalis]

Really? That's an odd approach, especially since it doesn't really seem like I need saving. In fact, it seems like your last post is an appeal to emotion for me to drop the case against you.

[Netopalis]

Ninja'd by Monkey. And...ugh. The point is that if you pick 2 people at random from a pool of 12, and 3 of those 12 at random are scum, there is a statistically significant possibility that those two are scum together.

[Netopalis]

Lowell: Why do you get town reads on Sakako and Reckoner? Why do you get a scum read on Espeonage?

[Netopalis]

We're on page 7. We're not anywhere close to a lynch.

[Netopalis]

Monkey: You gave me a reason to suspect you. You attacked the easiest target with weak attacks and set up questions with predictable answers that you knew you could attack.

[Netopalis]

Please be advised that this is L-2. If we go to L-1, I'm taking off my vote, just because I don't quite feel absolutely comfortable with this yet. I think Monkey may be the play today, but I want to hear more from him in response to all of this before we do anything.

[Netopalis]

*shrugs* I was just stating that I don't feel comfortable lynching without hearing him respond. I've been in several games where some newbie comes along and hammers before we get a chance to hear a defense.

[Netopalis]

Reckoner: The problem that I have with Monkey is the way that he seems to have the goal of lynching rather than the goal of finding scum. He posts things that he knows the likely answer to and then posts attacks on the only answer that could be given. It also seems questionable that he sits back and does absolutely nothing until there's an easy candidate, at which point he hops on the bandwagon. It's a weak case, but it's a case nonetheless.

[Netopalis]

Strong opinions alone aren't enough to merit a vote. Strong opinions without a good reason, however, do merit one. And yes, you said that, but you do have a vested interest in lying about your motivation if you are scum.

[Netopalis]

Not at all what I said. I originally said that your motivation appeared to be to lynch. You refuted by saying that you had already said that your motivation was to find scum. I said that you can't say that and expect us to believe you because you might be scum. You are scum because it appears that your motivation is to lynch rather than to find scum.

[Netopalis]

Does it? Please, put forth the strongest case you have against me. If you can present a sufficiently strong one independent of everybody else's, my vote goes away.

[Netopalis]

How am I discouraging scumhunting? By being against putting 2 votes on somebody for absolutely no reason? That doesn't follow.

Also, if my argument is so weak, I'm not sure why so many others are following me. I think it holds a lot of water - certainly moreso than anybody else I could suspect at this stage.

[Netopalis]

My point was that I feel that my argument is strong and others feel that it is strong. You seem to be the only one who thinks that it's so terribly weak.

[Netopalis]

Sakako: I think that the problem that everybody is having with your stuff is that it seems that you're just copying everybody else in an attempt to blend in. At least, that's my impression.

[Netopalis]

...only after you were called out on it. That's the problem.

[Netopalis]

Case against Monkey:

1) He completely misrepresented me after I was suspected by the others.

I didn't say it was a bad reason, I said that there was no reason. I don't like putting more than a single vote on a player without a reason. Truth be told, I hate putting any votes on anybody without a reason, but second votes are scummier than first votes.

So you're saying it's okay to vote without a reason so long as its not a first vote?

Also, I don't like your statement regarding early lurking, it seems like an excuse not to participate.

Unvote:
Vote: Netopalis

The part in which he quotes me and what he says that I said are completely opposite. It's pretty clear that I said that I said that I dislike all random votes, particularly those that land on someone who already has one. He turns it around and says that I don't like random votes unless someone else is already voting for that person. The first position is logical, the one that he tries to make me sound like I am advocating is not.

2) He drags out my responses to illogical degrees. Examine this post:

Monkey: The reverse, actually, if you read that. I hate all random votes, but random votes which are the only vote on that player are excusable because they are so common.

You can feel free to suspect me for this. I honestly could care less. I've been lynched for it before, but I'm not going to change my playstyle to appear more townie, since that's what scum players do, and since I don't want to ring any false bells based on that. I can link to at least 3-4 games in which I make these same arguments as town, and if you check my Wiki page (Last updated November 2009, I really need to update), I emphasize the same sentiments.

Just because something is common or uncommon is not a logical reason for something to be scummy or not scummy. There are things that are scummy that happen quite frequently, and things that are townish that are quite rare. Lurking, for example, is a frequent scum tactic. Likewise, having made an argument in a previous game does not make you less scummy in this game.

This was absolutely a terrible defence post and I recommend more votes on you with quick haste.

While I don't really like meta that much, I think that this is a fairly extreme example of when it is acceptible - to show that a player regularly does something out of the norm, and that it shouldn't be taken as a scumtell. He seems extremely determined, though, that nothing that I say will dissuade him from his course.

3) Flippant denial of any opposition. Consider the following posts:

Monkey and Sakako are a potential scumteam.

Discuss.

Random Player X and Random Player Y are a potential scumteam(as long as its not me). Discuss.

Strong opinions alone aren't enough to merit a vote. Strong opinions without a good reason, however, do merit one. And yes, you said that, but you do have a vested interest in lying about your motivation if you are scum.

So you think I might be scum because I might be scum? Talk about circular reasoning.

Ok. Monkey, you are actually not defending the points made against you so much as making points against who is voting for you. You were at the beginning but that discussion has kinda gone off track leaving me with a suspicious gut to add to the case I made. Therefore i am happy with my vote at the moment. I still hold that Saka (See ain't I nice. I read you don't like Sak) is a newb town.

That's not true at all. I voted for Neto first, if anyone is OMGUSing its him. There's not really a case against me so there's not really anything to defend.

No but instead of countering the arguements against you, you are having an arguement with neto about how he is playing. I never said there was any OMGUS in there.
So now I ask why four people are compelled to place their votes on you if there is no real case on you?

Don't ask me, ask them. Maybe it seems like the thing to do?

Essentially, here, he's trying the old propaganda technique of denying that there's any basis for the actions against him without explaining why there's no basis for those accusations. If he says enough times that those who suspect him are idiots, people will start to believe him - at least, that's what he seems to be banking on.

4) Once he realizes that I'm not going to be lynched, he starts breadcrumbing a switch over to Sakako. This is very subtly done, but he's trying to do it enough posts in advance so that it appears that he suspected Sakako all along.

@Monkey
Any comments on the more recent developments? What do you think of Sakako?

I've got a scum read on him. His "I suck at scumhunting" comment seems like a lack of commitment to help the town.

Well I don't really care if I get lynched, it will just be annoying having to wait for a while.

Sorry if I can't practice scumhunting - I'm actually trying pretty hard here, you know. If you don't like it, then that's your problem, but I'm actually trying to save you here, Neto.

He doesn't care if he gets lynched, yet he's trying?

Note that he never really pursues either of these cases. He just posts them and leaves them be. I daresay that if I left him alone, he'd take up the wagon against Sakako in a few posts, and when challenged, he'd bring up these very posts as evidence why his switch isn't scummy. Note too his choice of a new target: Sakako, who is also on the defensive.

[Netopalis]

Almaster: I did a quick iso glance-through of his 2 games. Remarkably similar play...But, I don't really have a town read to compare it with, so take it with a grain of salt. Also, I'm not really a huge fan of using meta.

[Netopalis]

1) You said:

So you're saying it's okay to vote without a reason so long as its

not

a first vote?

A proper characterization of my statement would be

So you're saying it's okay to vote without a reason so long as its a first vote?

Also, I used meta to justify the fact that I don't like to put up random votes or contribute until I have something to say, not to justify the building of a case.

[Netopalis]

But I didn't use Meta to present an argument. I used it to present the lack of an action.

[Netopalis]

I'd be OK with Sakako, I guess. The discussion with Monkey seems to be rather circular in nature at this point, and it seems like we're actually getting somewhere productive with interrogating Sakako.

Unvote, vote: Sakako

[Netopalis]

Oh, and also: A quote.

"Newbie card" is now no longer a legitimate excuse for any mistakes I may make, so anyone trying to meta me, don't let that factor into your explanations.

[Netopalis]

*shrugs* The problem I had was with you setting it up so far in advance. It looked as if your posts were designed not to build a case, but to justify a switch later.

[Netopalis]

Defeatism is also scummy. Sakako, you're not going to get anywhere with that sort of attitude. Chin up, defend yourself, present a decent case against somebody. Stretch if you have to. Tell me who you think is the scum and why.

[Netopalis]

Note: L-3.

[Netopalis]

Irony, thy name is the 6th votecount.

[Netopalis]

Eh? Don't you mean obv-scum? Or are you saying that both of our potential lynchees are terrible choices?

[Netopalis]

Nah. I DO expect, however, that you call your apartment the ViPad. But, yeah. Offtopic.

[Netopalis]

Ah, fair enough. As for Nikanor stopping lurking...Well, let's hope it happens.

[Netopalis]

Hey, look! Espeonage is Dora the Explorer!

(Sorry. I just couldn't resist...)

[Netopalis]

Kyle: Where have you been this whole time, anyway?

[Netopalis]

Almaster: The reason that I backed off of the Monkey wagon is actually option (c), that I didn't feel that the questioning was productive. We were talking in circles, and it didn't seem like either of us were going to budge. Rather than wasting the town's attention on a pointless circular argument, I switched over to Sakako, who I also feel has a fairly strong case against him. In the meantime, I'll be watching Monkey and, if I feel that I have anything to put a stronger case on him, I'll be renewing the attack there.


Sakako: While your list is good, I feel that there are two problems with it: You largely suspect the people that others have suspected and you bring up town reads without really justifying them. Try fleshing out a bit more why you feel that each of your town reads are town.

[Netopalis]

Why?

[Netopalis]

Note that I'll be holding you to that "tomorrow" this time, Nikanor.

[Netopalis]

You fill me with such confidence.

[Netopalis]

Well, that's a tricky question. I think that Monkey is more likely to be scum, but I also think that I can't prove it yet. I'd hammer him in that situation. The reason that I switched was due to a lack of evidence and our conversation was making it fairly obvious that he wasn't going to budge any time soon.

[Netopalis]

Almaster: There's enough evidence to convince me, but not enough that I can establish a coherent case. By budging, I was referring to the cyclical nature of our discussion. We were getting absolutely nowhere, and neither of us was willing to change our viewpoints.

[Netopalis]

Lowell: Why does Sakako look town? Nitpick as much as you'd like.

[Netopalis]

How specific. Let's get a bit more detail, shall we? Lowell, I'm going to need a rundown of every player here and your opinions on them.

[Netopalis]

(Sorry, that was in reference to Lowell.)

[Netopalis]

Good luck getting anything out of Nikanor. I was in a game with him recently and he promised to "post something tomorrow" roughly 7 times. He never fulfilled any of those in a timely fashion.

[Netopalis]

I'd rather get replacement. If he keeps posting, sure, but...yeah.

[Netopalis]

Yeah, don't really want to lynch Kyle right now either. While I'm usually in favor of policy lynches in theory, I don't feel that one today will give us that much information.

[Netopalis]

...your profile?

[Netopalis]

Yeah, but that post is tied into an argument against you.

[Netopalis]

Triple-team FTW!

[Netopalis]

Who's Niko? I'm Neto, Nikanor is Nika.

[Netopalis]

Uh..He called the Nikanor votes a failwagon.

[Netopalis]

=/= is "Does not equal"

[Netopalis]

I'm going to reread Sakako v. Monkey. I agree wholeheartedly that Kyle is a bad lynch, as implied earlier.

[Netopalis]

It's absolutely necessary to limit the field to two players if we want to get solid reactions so that we can analyze players on D2. Also, we're not counting out Kyle because of what he said, it's because we know that he is, in general, useless.

[Netopalis]

Agreed, we can't force replace yet. After 2 prods, if he needs a 3rd, we can do it.

[Netopalis]

*shrugs* My only point was that I don't like to participate in RVS and that I do it in all of my games. I didn't even say that you had to find it that authoritative.

[Netopalis]

I don't see why it's scummy to begin with. Players who know that they aren't very good at it should stay out of it. Townies are to only act in a pro-town manner. My staying out of the RVS is an extension of that duty.

[Netopalis]

And it feels rather opportunistic. But, yeah, rereading tomorrow.

[Netopalis]

See: Nouns Mafia. http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12654

In which I am lynched on D1 for disliking the fact that Boxman gets put to 3 votes randomly on P3.

[Netopalis]

I disagreee. I haven't used it a great deal in the past as town, but then again, I'm not often attacked with such weak non-arguments. I'm trying to tone back some of my bombast since I've found that I've been lynched an awful lot lately on D1, regardless of alignment.

[Netopalis]

Still here. I need to catch up over the last few pages...

[Netopalis]

Alright. Sorry for the long wait between my last post and this one, but I think I've got some fairly important stuff to say.

The key wagons today seem to be Monkey v. Sakako. Strong cases have been made for both. Just to recap, Sakako is generally scummy for following everybody else's suspicions and his weak defenses. Monkey is generally scummy for following everybody else's suspicions and his odd misrepresentations of the attacks against him.

In my analysis of Sakako, originally I wasn't counting experience as that much of a factor. However, in my last reread, I started to ask myself how I'd feel if I were ICing a Newbie game with Sakako in it. When I started to do that, he looked a lot more likely to be town, as his posts do seem to fit the standard Newbie caution and paranoia. I don't think that he's completely cleared, but most of his defenses do seem to be genuine. He does need to learn how to scumhunt a bit better, though.

Monkey is a tricky analysis. I really don't like how his response to everything is pretty much to sarcastically dismiss the attacks against him as without merit. That's a classic scumplay. Also, as mentioned earlier, he does tend to misrepresent people a lot. That could either be intentional or unintentional, I'm not sure. It's true that he's never voted for anybody that it didn't feel that there would be a strong bandwagon on, and it's true that for much of the early game, aside from these light attacks to justify his votes, he was inactive.

Right now, I'm leaning towards a Monkey lynch. If nothing else, I think that we'll get a great deal more information from a Monkey flip than we will get from anybody else. The simple fact is that every player has expressed opinions about him, even Sakako and Kyle.

For now, I'm going to

Unvote, vote: Monkeyman

. I want to see his defense and potentially a claim.


For tomorrow, I feel that we should take the time to investigate the following players more carefully in light of the 2-ish flips that we'll be getting:

Nikanor - I don't feel that his play has been analyzed enough today, although reading over him quickly, I don't have any strong attacks to make either.

Kyle - I'd like to pressure Kyle a bit more and see what he has to say. He seems to only show up and post when he's attacked...so, let's attack.

Sakako - We might want to look at the interchange between him and Monkey depending on how Monkey flips.

Lowell - If you look over his posts, I think there's a fairly substantial case for him as lurker scum trying to attack without making a lot of waves.

[Netopalis]

Kyle: I feel that you're somebody that we should look into during the next game day, but I don't feel that you're an appropriate lynch today for two reasons:

1) We didn't force you to post enough content to evaluate

2) Not everybody's given their opinion on your lynch

In short, lynching you wouldn't give us enough information on which to base a solid conclusion for D2.

[Netopalis]

Yeah, and the number should then be 6, meaning that Monkey is at L-1.

Ooops. Thank you! ^_^ ~Kitty

[Netopalis]

Really, Lowell? The fact that I don't think we have time to seriously do justice to an investigation on Kyle isn't a valid reason to wait until another day to grill him?

[Netopalis]

Saying that they are baseless is dismissing them. I was also referring to your response to the "X and Y are scum" argument. In fact, I really have yet to see you dealing realistically with anything.

[Netopalis]

Hmm...Odd claim.

Unvote

for now while I mull this over. I have initial reservations about the "normality" of the role.

[Netopalis]

In a recent thread in MD, a survey was conducted about the "normality" of each role. The results are in this thread:

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13001

As you can see, JOAT was one of the borderline cases. Given this and the fact that many normal mods have been using this, I would say that it's not entirely out of the question. I also think that it's an unlikely fake claim.

Vote: Kyle99

Since you wanted my vote so badly before you can have it. I need a list of players and your reads on each of them. This list should be detailed - I'd like at least 2 full sentences about each player.

[Netopalis]

Where do you get the magic number 4?

[Netopalis]

Wait a minute. DRK, I don't think you quite get what I'm saying here. Reckoner stated that Monkey had 4 abilities. From my experience, JOAT has a varying number of abilities.

How did Reckoner know that Monkey's claim had 4 abilities unless he's scum with Monkey?

[Netopalis]

Oh. Ok, then. Nevermind.

[Netopalis]

I've only read 1 game with it in it, actually. I don't remember the game, but I thought it had a different number. My problem was that it's a rather rare role, and I'm not convinced that there's a standard number. However, DRK seems to think so, and I really doubt that if DRK and Reckoner were scum together that DRK would out himself like that.

[Netopalis]

Ok then. I think i missed the case on Neto. Could someone point that out for me?

This. Also, the debate over voting for Monkey is rather silly. I was a bit concerned at first, but there's really no point to it, honestly. You just don't lynch a claimed PR until you give them a few nights to see what happens. Yeah, his claim is somewhat unbelievable...but it is within the limits of normality set out by the survey.

[Netopalis]

Sure, you can sometimes see things outside the survey, but if it's in the survey, it means that it's generally accepted as within the limits of normal. Therefore, a new mod wouldn't raise eyebrows by putting it in her game.

Espeonage: There *was* a case, but I don't feel that we can continue to press after the roleclaim, at least not until we wait a night or two to see what happens with him.

[Netopalis]

I originally thought that the JOAT claim was a bit too out there to be considered for a normal game. However, I wasn't concerned after checking the survey thing. That's all I'm going on about is the likelihood of the role appearing in a normal game.

[Netopalis]

Espeonage: There isn't another JOAT. The rarity of the role almost guarantees that.

[Netopalis]

Incredibly unlikely. If it were a cop or a doc or even a tracker, sure, but JOAT...I doubt it.

[Netopalis]

Hmm...Good points as well from Reckoner. I really can't decide here. I'm going to read over Monkey in isolation again, then come back and post my thoughts.

[Netopalis]

Unvote, vote: Monkeyman

That last post settles it. There's no way that somebody who was telling the truth would post that.

[Netopalis]

See, that's the kind of stuff that I'm talking about. If you were really a power role, I think you'd be a bit less...jolly about this whole thing.

[Netopalis]

If you were seriously a town role, you'd be explaining that, not just going "Nuh-uh!" like a kindergartner at a playground.

[Netopalis]

*rolls eyes*

Don't you see? This is why we find you scummy - all along, you've not taken anybody's posts seriously. You've just negated the statement and thrown it back as if you were worried that a prolonged defense would let you slip something that you didn't mean to.

[Netopalis]

...

Learn from your mistakes.

[Netopalis]

With Lowell's inactivity? I doubt it.

...

However, if you're lucky, you *might* be able to make it happen in....

Mafia 110: Mafia in Hell, Michigan

[Netopalis]

I think he's still arguing against the 4-ability thing from the perspective of not being able to chat with his partner about it beforehand. He doesn't realize that we're well beyond that now.

[Netopalis]

No idea. He seems to always be about 15-20 posts behind us.

[Netopalis]

What the crap are you going on about? This...this is bizarre.

[Netopalis]

...

...

...

Grakbal?

PFbaba?

Lagaebame?

Scrabakeanceahceh?

You fakeclaimed as town and would have claimed to have been roleblocked? And you STILL don't get why we want to lynch you?

[Netopalis]

FOS: Hito

. Honestly, could that have been any more along the lines of "Hey, hold up, guys, I still need to look like town today!"

[Netopalis]

Fine. But if you're too lazy to defend yourself, Monkey, I'm not going to do it for you. I only do that when I feel that the person I'm defending is town.

[Netopalis]

No time to comment now, aside from to say that Monkey should seriously reconsider his actions yesterday. They were absolutely pathetic.

[Netopalis]

No, I meant that in future games, he should consider the reasons that he was lynched and not make the same mistakes.

[Netopalis]

Hey, sorry, I've been falling a bit behind - I'm going to do a quick reread over today and tomorrow and post some content.

[Netopalis]

I think that the Hito/Bob argument seems to be between two pro-town players - it doesn't sound like either of them are scum to me. I also agree with Reckoner that we really can't call anyone scummy just because they were on the Monkey wagon - any active player, town or scum, would have and should have jumped on it. Nikanor...While he seems scummy, I've caught Scum-Nikanor, and he played much differently. Kyle does the whole "pop up once I'm attacked" thing again which gains him scum points in my eyes, although the hammer alone isn't enough for that given his past activity level. I'm going to do an iso-reread of Lowell - it may be nothing, but I think that there may be something there.

[Netopalis]

Analysis of Lowell:
(Post # refers to isolation post)
0) Random vote
1) Weak reasoning, but still early in the game.
2) Vague, unsubstantiated attacks
3-4) Decent post, but shows signs of active lurking since the post was made 2 days later than his previous one and has little additional content
5) Strange post altogether - the whole "I think scum would play as X" is a bit weak.
6) Weak reasoning for a vote given the lateness in the day
7) Decent post, better than most, but it really doesn't advocate any position.
8) "Yeah, it was my idea first..."
9) Attacks me because if Monkey flips town, I'm scum and if Monkey flips scum, I'm scum. Additionally, considers hammering Monkey before letting him claim - it seems as if he's setting himself up to look like a pro-town player when Monkey flips town.
10) Agreement, strange logic leading to a weak result.
14) "Yeah, I'd like to lynch somebody else, but I'm going to keep my vote over here because it looks townie"
17) Good posting about the Monkey wagon not necessarily being scummy
18) Attacking the easy target - the second-best target from the previous day.

Altogether, these posts show that Lowell is afraid to take a solid position and seems to be far too eager to be in the majority in any case.

Unvote, vote: Lowell

[Netopalis]

Lowell: With only 16 posts, it didn't take me that long to do an iso read on you. I made my post, then did the read. If you notice, there are about 10 minutes between the posts.

[Netopalis]

*shrugs* I don't often bus. Also, like I said yesterday, I work much, much better on D2. There's more to analyze and it plays more to my style. Finally, I don't think you can see a strong connection between us on D1. Regardless, Lowell's the play today, I feel.

[Netopalis]

Take it as you will. I've seen scum stick together and I've seen them distance. It's still something that I'm not going to seriously bother defending myself against until the flip.

[Netopalis]

Bob: Sorry, I should have said that he makes a post pointing out that he

could

hammer, but chooses not to.

[Netopalis]

Imagine that.

[Netopalis]

I posted my comments, and nobody really had any questions about them. Do you have anything you'd like me to answer? Also, I didn't see any need to defend myself against an accusation that hasn't arisen yet - you haven't yet defended yourself against the accusation that you are not a Mafia player, but actually a potted geranium.

[Netopalis]

Not liking Nikanor here. He's acting as if it's the foregone conclusion that he'll be lynched, when that's really not the case. I've noticed that scum often tend to go into "lost cause" mode much earlier than town, and I feel that may be his motivation.

[Netopalis]

Saying that I don't randomly vote isn't

always

running to my meta, it's bringing it up in one specific circumstance and in a way that is legitimately used by a number of players.

[Netopalis]

And I wouldn't keep arguing it if people didn't keep hammering the same bloody point. But, fine, you're right. Failing to vote on page 1 is scummy. Keep your vote where it is. I'll add this game to my growing collection of moral victories.

[Netopalis]

Nah, this isn't lost cause mode, this is realizing that I'm arguing with a blockhead who stubbornly refuses to listen to the arguments of anybody else.

[Netopalis]

Uh..The whole point was that I wasn't responding to it until the issue arose. I'm not sure how that's overreacting.

[Netopalis]

Just to preempt you, Bob, the times that I said that were in response to Monkey's attacks for my refusal to vote during the RVS.

[Netopalis]

Hi, Zach. We seem to be seeing a lot of each other lately. Welcome!

[Netopalis]

I think that the Hito/Bob argument seems to be between two pro-town players - it doesn't sound like either of them are scum to me. I also agree with Reckoner that we really can't call anyone scummy just because they were on the Monkey wagon - any active player, town or scum, would have and should have jumped on it. Nikanor...While he seems scummy, I've caught Scum-Nikanor, and he played much differently. Kyle does the whole "pop up once I'm attacked" thing again which gains him scum points in my eyes, although the hammer alone isn't enough for that given his past activity level. I'm going to do an iso-reread of Lowell - it may be nothing, but I think that there may be something there.

Analysis of Lowell:
(Post # refers to isolation post)
0) Random vote
1) Weak reasoning, but still early in the game.
2) Vague, unsubstantiated attacks
3-4) Decent post, but shows signs of active lurking since the post was made 2 days later than his previous one and has little additional content
5) Strange post altogether - the whole "I think scum would play as X" is a bit weak.
6) Weak reasoning for a vote given the lateness in the day
7) Decent post, better than most, but it really doesn't advocate any position.
8) "Yeah, it was my idea first..."
9) Attacks me because if Monkey flips town, I'm scum and if Monkey flips scum, I'm scum. Additionally, considers hammering Monkey before letting him claim - it seems as if he's setting himself up to look like a pro-town player when Monkey flips town.
10) Agreement, strange logic leading to a weak result.
14) "Yeah, I'd like to lynch somebody else, but I'm going to keep my vote over here because it looks townie"
17) Good posting about the Monkey wagon not necessarily being scummy
18) Attacking the easy target - the second-best target from the previous day.

Altogether, these posts show that Lowell is afraid to take a solid position and seems to be far too eager to be in the majority in any case.

Unvote, vote: Lowell

I posted this and nobody commented. I really have nothing to add since then.

[Netopalis]

1 is stating my experience with regards to a specific scumtell. It is not a meta defense because it is not me saying that I have done something in other games in which I was town. That is not a meta defense by any stroke of the imagination.

In 2, the *shrug* is because I was honestly tired with the pointless back-and-forth that the conversation with Monkey was developing into.

In 3, yeah, it's a meta defense. This is one of the rare times when I feel that it's acceptable - something quantifiable that I literally do in every game regardless of alignment.

In 4, I'm not entirely sure what I was thinking when I posted that. I wouldn't expect anybody to take it as a major defense.

Finally, did you read my case against Lowell? I'd like your comments on it.

[Netopalis]

*shrug* No surprise. I'm town. Have fun.

[Netopalis]

Very well done. Superb play on the mafia side.

[Netopalis]

Me too, oddly enough. I admittedly wasn't at my best here...But really, the case was ridiculously flimsy.

[Netopalis]

2st place?