Open 208 - Fire & Ice Mafia >Over!<

[Crazy]

I live in EST, which I suppose is GMT -5.

I don't believe I've played with any of you guys yet, so this should be fun.

And

Vote: Deer

[Crazy]

I'm pretty sure that's a joke, not a scumslip.

[Crazy]

I personally, however, don't like it when people say intentionally wrong things in a mafia game, even in RVS, as it has potential to lead to misinterpretations and confusion. So while I disagree with you feeling like this is a scum slip, I agree with you calling out Mindgamer for that post.

I don't quite follow you... do you think what Mindgamer said was scummy or just something that should be discouraged?

Mindgamer's post was obviously a joke - let's leave it at that.

Hmm, do you think SK was over-pushing it, then? Do you find that scummy?

[Crazy]

Crazy: Do you prefer townie or doc?

Random questions are cool, but I don't see how this question could help anybody but scum.

[Crazy]

....by getting conversation started

Yes, I understand, but the point of questions is to get to answers/reactions that could be pursued for more answers/reactions. In my case, instead of answering your question, I am choosing to stimulate discussion by objecting to your question.

The thing about your question is, if someone says they prefer being scum than town, well, that may lead to something helpful, or it may lead to nothing. With your question, about whether I prefer being townie or doc, that would either lead to nothing, or lead to a discussion that could benefit scum.

Next time, don't post so much one after the other. Pwn's vote is now hiding in all these posts and nobody took the opportunity to ask for his reason. Pwn, can you state it?

Wow, I missed that, too.

I also agree with what you said about ICE; I want him to explain what he meant further.

[Crazy]

Pwnman, did you think that was a slip because Mindgamer is an Ice Mafia? (SaintKerrigan's argument) Or is there some other reason why you think that post is scummy?

[Crazy]

Unvote
Vote: pwnman

Yeah, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about (and just piggybacking off of SK) if you agree that what Mindgamer said was a scumslip and then say you think he's either Fire Mafia or Ice Mafia.

[Crazy]

It's a good wagon; pwnman is probably scum. If you dislike the wagon, please say what's wrong with it.

I would have voted pwnman even had other people not voted him first; if you see, it was pwman's answer to my question that prompted the wagon on him. Also, there's nothing inherently wrong with agreeing with another player's opinion. The issue is that pwnman showed he had no idea WHY it would be a scumslip (showing he doesn't even understand the argument he's agreeing with) when he said he thought Mindgamer was either Fire or Ice Mafia.

[Crazy]

@DarkLight - Put simply, the wagon is because pwnman followed on SaintKerrigan's case without even understanding the logic himself. That is VERY scummy. That's a whole lot more scummy than a "misinterpretation of a random vote."

[Crazy]

well, I don't know if pwnman is scum or not, but I'm willing to bet a good amount of money there's an opportunistic scum on his wagon.

It's quite possible, but scum in multi-faction games are usually looking for a little more than an easy mislynch; they usually want to lynch scum from the other faction. Probably not both of the other scum-team, but one of them, at least.

[Crazy]

The fact that crazy says you must specificity scum factions is retardly naive and dumb. As town, you don't specify likely scum factions untill you have scum flips. You do however, specifiy scum links between people as potential partners.

You don't understand what I'm talking about. That's not what I'm saying at all; for instance, I wouldn't be able to tell you whether I think pwnman is Fire or Ice Mafia; there's no distinguishable thing between them at this point.

SK voted Mindgamer because Mindgamer called ICE a Fire Mafia, and SK saw that as a slip (as in, because Mindgamer is an Ice Mafia himself). After SK voted Mindgamer, pwnman also voted Mindgamer "for his first post."

When pwnman was questioned, he said he also saw it as a slip. When I questioned him again, he said he thought Mindgamer was either Ice Mafia or Fire Mafia. That shows he never understood what the heck this "slip" even was, yet he still voted! Tell me, why would a townie

do that?!

[Crazy]

The thing is, I think it's stupid to even suggest that mindgamer is fire/ice mafia based on a blatantly obvious joke. I find SK pretty scummy for insinuating that in the first place, along with the piggybacking thing DT and I (kind of) brought up.

On that logic, you should be at least as suspicious of pwnman as you are of SK, if not more. Are you?

[Crazy]

DTM, you're logic is so failing I can't believe it. I'm sick of trying to explain it; would you think about it for a little; maybe it will come to you? I'll try again tomorrow if needed, though.

[Crazy]

@Crazy
Tell me, how is town supposed to make the distinction from ice/fire mafia in 3 pages, no night kills, day start game? Town is not concerned in making distinctions between Ice/Fire slips, town is only determined in finding scum slips in general of either factions.

The original idea that SK had about the slip was that Mindgamer was Ice Mafia because Mindgamer said ICE was obv-Fire Mafia, and that sounds like a scum-slip for Mindgamer (as in, he knew ICE wasn't Ice Mafia.) I never bought into that, but that's not the point.

What's troubling is no one seem to caught on that SK focused specifically on Mindgamer for an Ice slip, and Crazy is joining in on the pwnwagon for not saying Mind is Ice scum, rather pwn finds Mindgamer scummy.

These were the options:

A. Mindgamer is town, and the post was a joke.
B. Mindgamer is Ice Mafia, and the post was a joke.
C. Mindgamer is Fire Mafia, and the post was a joke.
D. Mindgamer is Ice Mafia, and the post was a scum-slip.

Option E - "Mindgamer is Fire Mafia, and the post was a scum-slip" does not exist.

I find option D farfetched in itself; but the fact that pwnman agreed that Mindgamer made a scum-slip, and then said that Mindgamer was either Fire Mafia or Ice Mafia showed that pwnman had no idea what he was talking about, and was just piggybacking off of SK's argument while understanding nothing. That's very scummy.

So to summarize, it's not that we'd be deliberately seeking out "Ice Mafia slips;" rather, if Mindgamer were to be lynched for his "slip," it would be under the assumption that he was Ice Mafia, not "general scum." If Mindgamer is Fire Mafia, then he didn't make a slip.

In all other cases, the whole "Fire & Ice" thing doesn't matter until Day 2; Mindgamer's post was just a crazy exception. For instance, I would have no idea whether pwnman was Fire or Ice Mafia. Pwnman's actions are indicative of "general scum," whereas, if Mindgamer's post was a slip, then that would be indicative of "Ice Mafia Scum." Pwnman acknowledged Mindgamer's post as a "general scum slip," which is not possible, because only Ice Mafia could have made that slip, which shows pwnman was full of crap.

There, I've explained this all the way I know how; if you can't understand what I'm talking about now, then you need to reread the thread, because I can't help you anymore.

[Crazy]

@DTM and pwnman - Please explain how Mindgamer's first post could possibly be a slip from a Fire Mafia!

DTM, understanding that Mindgamer's first post COULD NOT BE a Fire Mafia slip (rather, the only possibilities are a joke or an Ice Mafia slip.) is critical to understanding the case on pwnman.

Just says: Mindgamer is Ice, or Fire, or Town. You are contributing thin air.

I'm trying to explain my case on pwnman; not trying to evaluate Mindgamer's alignment.

@Crazy
1. Why would you need to explain Scott's argument to me? You and Saint are using Scott's argument and attacking pwnman. If anything: you are pwnman 2.0. doing the same thing he was.

There's nothing wrong with agreeing with somebody else's case, silly. Otherwise, we'd never lynch anybody. The problem is that pwnman never understood SK's argument about Mindgamer to begin with, and still followed with his vote.

[Crazy]

1. Wow. First of, that is a vote in the RVS. How can you quickly determine alignments based on one post. When you say:

I was never in favor of the Mindgamer made an Ice scum-slip argument.

a. The statement is a joke, the thing about fire scum is obviously does not reveal his alignment. Hence Mindgamer can be any alignment, even fire scum.

True. I think it's a joke, but clearly SK and pwnman did not think so.

b. When you say Mindgamer's vote and comment on fire scum is a slip. You can argue Freudian slip. Mindgamer is fire scum, attempting to paint someone else as fire scum. Mindgamer is ice scum, attempting to find ice scum. Or Mindgamer is town, looking for reactions through a fake slip.

You really think pwnman thought of all that WIFOM nonsense?

You are pretty much arguing that pwnman is scummy for not understanding a case. Do your realize this? Pwnman followed through on a second vote on a wagon. Not understanding and being scummy are completely different things.

Not understanding a case is not scummy. Bandwagoning is sometimes scummy. Bandwagoning while not understanding the case is VERY SCUMMY!

I also like how you totally ignore the piggyback argument, which yourself is guilty of in the outlined quotes I showed above.

I believe I've said before that the "piggybacking" isn't scummy in isolation; it's only scummy when you combine it with the fact that PWNMAN DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THE CASE!

TD;DR: Crazy jumps the gun to clear someone as fire scum and only fire scum can do that. He's guilty of piggybacking, just like pwnman. He calls out that pwnman wagons, but his main scummy trait is not understanding a case. This argument is extremely faulty and much more scummier then pwnman's actions.

With this, you're guilty of pegging me as fire scum when earlier you said you can't deduce different types of scum on Day 1. Though I don't care, because I don't believe you're scum; because I don't think you are pwnman's partner (I think DarkLight is, for the XScorpion vote), and I can't see scum that's not pwnman's partner going through the crap you're going through.

[Crazy]

I feel like I'm saying the same things over and over again and people still don't get it! This is incredibly frustrating.

You are lying through your teeth

Post 15.

You've expressed preference that mindgamer was not fire scum, but you didn't shy away from the fact that you can interpret mindgamer as ice scum.

My read on Mindgamer is pretty neutral; he could be town or either scum. All I've said is, IF HE SLIPPED, THEN HE'S ICE SCUM. To me, that means nothing, because I don't think he slipped. That only has relevance to SK and pwnman.

Ding ding ding! Hey what did you say again? SK was specific about Mindgamer being ice scum. Why haven't you picked up on this? Here let me ask you this: why is SK so focused on finding ice scum in Mindgamer? How is this proof of townish alignment on SK

It's not; when have I said I thought SK was certain town? PWnman is just far scummier in my eyes, since he used the same case as SK, except he didn't even understand it!

Also pwnman didn't think up the wifom list, you did. Are we seriously going to argue that: because pwnman didn't think of the wifom possibilities, he must be scum because he didn't think through all of said possibilities. That's very absurd, you do know that. You aren't Mindgamer, and if mindgamer is scum the only way you can narrow down that list right now is being his partner.

*blink*

What I'm trying to get you to see is that

Pwnman didn't understand the SK's case yet still voted for Mindgamer.

Can you possibly deny that?

You just said understanding wasn't scummy. When I reread the above, I read tons of confusion, and lots of anti-town newbie behaviour. However, Pwnman had a sense of a reason to vote, which he quoted SK's reasoning. This got pressed, and pwnman admits: He didn't see XY possibility. This reasoning means, his vote wasn't valid and the case wasn't that strong. The OMGUS, yes scummy. The confusion? Not so much.

Why the heck would he vote if he was confused about what SK meant? Wouldn't the logical thing be to question SK, or at the very least not AUTOMATICALLY AGREE WITH HER?

Hey, maybe SK and pwnman are partners; that would make sense.

Especially this - I think you're wrong here. Although pwnman didn't understand the case, your piggybacking was equally as bad in my eyes, considering how weak SK's original case was.

SK's case on pwnman isn't weak. SK's case on Mindgamer was far weaker. And pwnman agreed with SK about Mindgamer without even understanding it in the first place.

[Crazy]

Last quote is from Deer, typo.

Deer, I want to hear from you, not DTM, why the case on pwnman is so weak. You can say that pwnman, SK, and I all did what you'd call "piggybacking." I have no big problem with piggybacking itself, but apparently you do, so I want to ask you why SK and I piggybacking on pwnman's wagon is any worse than pwnman piggybacking on Mindgamer's wagon.

DTM, it seems like you actually think pwnman would be scum if he wasn't a newbie, so you're just giving him a free pass, right? I mean, like nothing he ever could do would ever be scummy, because he's just a newb and doesn't know anything, right?

[Crazy]

My joke could be interpreted as a scumslip. I don't like how Crazy refuses to understand that.

I don't think you've been reading fully.

Yes, your first post has a vague chance of being a slip from an Ice Mafia. Personally, I don't think it is, but I'm not going to come down hard on SK and pwnman for that. But there's no chance that it could be a slip from a Fire Mafia, as pwnman suggested. That's why I'm voting him.

[Crazy]

Bullshit. If you have no problem with piggybacking then why are you trying to get me lynched by bandwagon for piggybacking?

Another person that's obviously not reading the thread. You never answered how Mindgamer's first post could possibly have been a Fire Mafia slip, either.

[Crazy]

Crazy, for the billionth time, he could've been fire mafia trying to lynch his scum partner so he could look like a townie, or he could be trying to frame someone as fire mafia

That's exactly what DTM said. It's disappointing that DTM ended up answering that question before you, because now I have less proof. I know you didn't think of that WIFOM crap when you voted Mindgamer, and I'm about 95% sure you're scum.

I'm not denying it, I'm saying you aren't attacking people who are deserving more of a wagon. You aren't even commenting on any other points of the pwnman wagon. Your insistance that the case is a done deal is making you tunnel.

I am tunneling because I really think pwnman is scum. There's nobody today I would rather lynch than pwnman; I don't even think there's anybody I

could

lynch instead of pwnman even if I wanted too.

If I'm lynched, so be it. If pwnman is lynched, he's probably scum. If he's not, I'll count my loss and try again. But there's no way I'll change my opinion on pwnman unless I see him flip town.

So you ignore SK, but not Mindgamer and Pwnman? Like the eff?

Pwnman is the only one I care about today. Tomorrow I'll look into Mindgamer/SK/XScorpion/Deer/everyone else that I need to.

The fact that

pwnman admitted that he was wrong tips me off. If pwnman really wanted a quick wagon, he would press on with the "scum slip theory" because it was the leading, competing wagon. Even deflecting to the town lurkers would be much more realistic. Admitting that you were wrong/did not understand a case is not, I seriously mean, it's not a scum tell. It means that you took the time and said:

"I was wrong about this case"

I'd agree with you, but you must have imagined when pwnman said that.

^^ Prefrence at Ice Scum. If Crazy ruled out Mindgamer-firescum. He is left with Town-Mindgamer or Icescum-Mindgamer.

I explained how a firescum-Mindgamer would make a Freudian slip, by delfecting attention towards someone as fire scum

People who are clever enough to "deflect attention" are not the same people that make Freudian slips. And people that post like pwnman are not the same people that think of crap like "deflecting attention and making a Freudian slip simultaneously".

It's not, necessarily, but I feel that your defenses and responses to questioning have been worse than pwnman's. I never said I don't find pwnman scummy - what he didn't doesn't look great, but I just think yours felt more like an opportunistic scum move.

I was wondering if your gameplay would be fitting to your username. It is. You're far too passive.

[Crazy]

I have no idea who you're quoting throughout that, Mindgamer, but since I don't remember typing any of the stuff you quoted, I don't think it's me. I don't see anywhere where you defended your vote on my bandwagon, which is bad because your vote never made sense to begin with, since I certainly never said your post couldn't be interpreted as a scum-slip. If I believed that, I'd be attacking SK as hard as pwnman.

Also, it seems to me Scott had posted more content than Sanhora, XScorpion, and probably pwnman. [and even you, before that last post.] Deer, too, is relatively low on post content. Why did you choose Scott in particular?

[Crazy]

I'll post a little later today.

[Crazy]

I'll get back into this; I would have posted yesterday but I had a lot of homework to do.

Okay, I still like the pwnman wagon, obviously. I haven't seen a reason to turn away from that.

On my first instinct, the Mindgamer wagon is at least somewhat decent, but I need to look more into that.

And yeah, XScorpion's recent posts are really weird. I'd probably be voting him if I wasn't voting pwnman, honestly. Someone with a post count of 568 shouldn't be getting the lenience of being a "stupid townie" that he's getting.

[Crazy]

Okay, that vote was meant for me to be a base in scum hunting, but as you guys seem to not like it:

Just trying to get what you're saying... you voted SK in hopes that it would start getting other people to scum-hunt her? That's a weird way to do things, but at least it makes sense in the context of your post. *shrug*

[Crazy]

I've been busy lately and I don't think I'd be able to actively continue in this game, and I think a replacement could do a much better job than I could. I think it's better that I request replacement now before it becomes late in the game and difficult to find a replacement. Sorry, all.