Yeah, just something to note.TeWuicah wrote:So your argument is that his inactivity doesn't count as proof of his alignment? Fair enough. I still think it's anti-town, and if he can't put in any content at all then he's better off replacing out.jbernier93 wrote: In all games I'm in with him, his recent posts have been infrequent / relatively low content.
I don't like his trying to distancing himself from rzhang. This is what people should do, yes, but it sounds like he is saying "I can't believe that he would do this, it makes him look scummy and brings attention to him." In the end, dragonfly says "I am willing to accept his playstyle...even though I don't agree that it was the right thing to do to get the game going." I am seeing this as scum trying to make up for the previous player.Dragonfly13 wrote:The page 3 rz vote:
Initial reaction: "What the hell? I'm replacing THIS guy???"
The only explanation I have for this is that perhaps he was trying to say "if I were scum, why would I do this?" And I ask myself, "What could scum possibly gain by putting Deer at L-2 on page 3? (or maybe L-1? the votecounts around here are confusing)" The only thing that really does is shift attention towards you, so I don't see why scum would do that. 88 sounds like a good enough explanation for me to lower him down a few notches. This kind of thing felt like the only explanation for his vote before I really read into the whole fallen angel gambit thing.
Rz's explanations of his page 3 vote seemmorelogically sound to me than they were on page 3. But I don't like it when people say "oh I did x, and that's a (pro-town/anti-town/null-tell)" because it should be the other players in the game who decide how your own actions should be perceived. I don't like this part of 117Because I'd much rather have seen him at least attempt to scumhunt.rz wrote:my goal now is to just to convince people that i have not been scummy up to this point, to the best of my ability. whether or not i am viewed as being helpful is less important to me at this point in time.
I also disagree with whatever makes him think it was a good idea, in some other game, to fakeclaim doc as town. That's just stupid. So I definitely have my disagreements with rz's playstyle at this point, but I am willing to accept his playstyle and even his weird "gambit," even though I don't agree that it was the right thing to do to get the game going. In other words, I can sort of see why he would play the way he did, but my playstyle is quite different.
SSSS post 179 (iso 14):SoSSSS wrote:My final sentence was to make sure that he doesn't get hammered and the day ends early. If someone hammered him, I would expect to be scrutinized along with everyone else, this was not meant to be a preemptive excuse.that'swhy he told everyone not to vote in huge letters. Because he would expect to be scrutinized. Why should a townie not want to be scrutinized?
This is peanut man covering himself, saying that he doesn't want to lynch one of the scummiest candidates, and takes basically no position on whether or not he sees us as scummy. So far, he has not taken a stance on anyone who is likely to be lynched, and so is helping to stay out of the spotlight.peanutman wrote:Of my limited time on mafiascum (about 4-5 games), the scummiest players lynched D1 have always turned out to be town. In fact, it's through probing and questionning that the scum blow up the case much bigger than it is (though the suspects don't help themselves by digging their hole). Therefore, although the likes of SSSS and rzhang didn't always behave in a townie way, I don't think they are the best lynches for today. I'm skeptical of lynches of the most obvious candidates on D1.
That being said, I'm not claiming that rzhang/Dragonfly and SSSS must be townies, but I feel it's more beneficial to go after those who aren't in (and attracting by their responses) the limelight. Let's be honest, if those two are town, they are easy for scum to push and lynch without rousing too much suspicion from their accusations.
With all of the input already on you both, I feel that I don't have anything new that hasn't already been said. In essence, I would be adding white noise to the whole debate. I prefer to bring something new and different, so the town is not tunneling on just one or two players. So, SSSS, I do believe you haven't played an excellent game, but I don't find you the scummiest, far from it. So, I can either just follow everyone else, place a vote on one of the two BWs by repeating what others have said in my own words, or I can look elsewhere, where I believe I'm more likely to find scum.SSSS wrote:This is peanut man covering himself, saying that he doesn't want to lynch one of the scummiest candidates, and takes basically no position on whether or not he sees us as scummy. So far, he has not taken a stance on anyone who is likely to be lynched, and so is helping to stay out of the spotlight.
Then why aren't you unvoting?spy wrote:That post feels right. I don't like that.
Are we reading the same game? Town has looked at rz -> smash -> water -> nobody -> smash -> now going back to nobody.peanut wrote: I prefer to bring something new and different, so thetown is not tunneling on just one or two players.
Which is fine. But still doesn't explain why you felt the need to thoroughly explain why you didn't want to join the rz or smash wagon . You could've easily switched votes indicating spy cleared some of your doubts, without going into the whole D1 lynch skepticism. You just seemed too defensive for something no one had questioned.peanut wrote: So, I can either just follow everyone else, place a vote on one of the two BWs by repeating what others have said in my own words, or I can look elsewhere, where I believe I'm more likely to find scum.
Interrogate away! Or at least do something productive given your request for people to post more frequently. Given your need for "something new to happen" to post more than "I'm here", you should have more than enough right now.NS wrote:given replacements in the next couple days, I think we can interrogate them(the replacements)sufficiently.
Next mention of SSSSNS-feb 27 wrote:I don't know what I think about him yet; I haven't quite caught up yet. Tomorrow I'll know more, and will post accordingly. Well, I do think there are too many "S"s in his name.
Could you give us this post you mentioned regarding SSSS? You clearly found him scummier after your catching up. Could you justify it for us?NS-Mar4 wrote:Other suspects:
SSSS (but not nearly as much as)
fallen angel. I still think that whole gambit thing was too anti-town to really be town.
RZ looked very scummy, and dragonfly's one post he made (the one with the town to scum list) didn't look great either. But, once he started posting after that, I started getting a town read from him. SSSS kind of OMGUS-ing on DF didn't look good for him either.You were on rz all game and your switch from dragon to smash was extremely abrupt. ISO 23 makes it seem as if you're leaning towards dragon being scum still, yet in ISO 24 you suddenly proclaim him swayed from scum spot. Given how hard you were on rz all game I just found it odd how easily you switched over when given the chance to hammer.
And then I noticed this:peanutman wrote:Of my limited time on mafiascum (about 4-5 games), the scummiest players lynched D1 have always turned out to be town. In fact, it's through probing and questionning that the scum blow up the case much bigger than it is (though the suspects don't help themselves by digging their hole). Therefore, although the likes of SSSS and rzhang didn't always behave in a townie way, I don't think they are the best lynches for today. I'm skeptical of lynches of the most obvious candidates on D1.
That being said, I'm not claiming that rzhang/Dragonfly and SSSS must be townies, but I feel it's more beneficial to go after those who aren't in (and attracting by their responses) the limelight. Let's be honest, if those two are town, they are easy for scum to push and lynch without rousing too much suspicion from their accusations.
That's why I'm leaning more towards Water_Foul (though, if I were to judge Spyrex alone, I wouldn't be at all) for the reasons previously stated, or Nobody Special, given his requesting more activity and yet not commenting on it when it comes. His only comment is post 263 since the uptake in activity. Because I find Spyrex to be more helpful to the town, I willunvote, vote : Nobody Special
Peanut says he doesn't think SSSS and Rzhang are likely to be scum, but then says that he could "either just follow everyone else, place a vote on one of the two BWs by repeating what others have said in my own words, or I can look elsewhere, where I believe I'm more likely to find scum."peanutman wrote:With all of the input already on you both, I feel that I don't have anything new that hasn't already been said. In essence, I would be adding white noise to the whole debate. I prefer to bring something new and different, so the town is not tunneling on just one or two players. So, SSSS, I do believe you haven't played an excellent game, but I don't find you the scummiest, far from it. So, I can either just follow everyone else, place a vote on one of the two BWs by repeating what others have said in my own words, or I can look elsewhere, where I believe I'm more likely to find scum.SSSS wrote:This is peanut man covering himself, saying that he doesn't want to lynch one of the scummiest candidates, and takes basically no position on whether or not he sees us as scummy. So far, he has not taken a stance on anyone who is likely to be lynched, and so is helping to stay out of the spotlight.
To sum up, I feel that tacking onto the SSSS/DF discussions is staying out of the spotlight by blending with everyone else. By separating from that and talking about others, I am singling myself out to some extant, spreading the spotlight to others as well.
Dragonfly proves my point right here, but then acts in an opposite way. He says that large wagons are easy for scum to manipulate, but then he's still ok with his vote on SSSS because his is magically "more likely to have been manipulated by scum". So, I agree with his statement about early BWs. But I don't like that he ignored that fact to save his own skin (though it's a null-tell because, early on, townies are also interested in self-preservation). I'm hoping this shows that I'm not the only one who sees the inherent flaw in D1 BWs, when it comes to lynching scum.Dragonfly wrote:It's definitely a difficult dilemma when placed in a situation like this one. There is one scummy player in my eyes who has a large wagon (SSSS). Nobody Special is definitely playing anti-town and lurk-heavy, but what more can be gained by lynching him than by lynching SSSS?
Large wagons are easy for scum to manipulate, so it seems rather awkward when scummy players have large wagons. This is due to a fear of the "scummy" player being town-aligned, because scum would naturally hold off lynching scum-mates until it appears to be too late. So why has SSSS been voted so heavily?
My argument is that the other major wagon (rz/me) is more likely to have been manipulated by scum.