Karma Mafia (Game Over!)

[Espeonage]

Vote: porochaz

[Espeonage]

I am happy with my vote. Echidnas are cuter.

[Espeonage]

Obviously Porochaz/Dybeck/Jahudo/Seraphim are all anteater scum.

[Espeonage]

Obviously Porochaz/Dybeck/Jahudo/Seraphim are all anteater scum.

Your right

vote Porochaz

See I knew I was right.

[Espeonage]

We already worked out you were scum.

[Espeonage]

Hey-o.

Vote: Pomegranate

Pomegranates suck.

Lynch all Liars!

Unvote; Vote:NickF227

.

Rikku>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Yuna

And Tifa beats them both. So put your vote on our confirmed scummy people.

[Espeonage]

Pirates are too cool to be a lame scum.
Anteater on the other hand are all baddies.

[Espeonage]

[Espeonage]

Stop squabbling. We need to LaA.

[Espeonage]

Ok fine.

Unvote, Vote: curiouskarmadog

[Espeonage]

Unvote, Vote: Anon

That scales as one of the very worst read throughs I have ever seen. Even on the site i first started playing on.

[Espeonage]

Lurker hunting is easy to use as scum.
Richard pushing is also easy to use as scum.

I don't like either of these that are happening in this game. I'll take a look at the common factors in these two cases tomorrow. Got a test coming up tomorrow morning and I need some studying.

This post is full of win.
I wish it was still RVS so I could vote for the Aussie hater. And I see no reason to change my vote so it stays.

[Espeonage]

I missed some questions,

Unvote, Vote: Anon That scales as one of the very worst read throughs I have ever seen. Even on the site i first started playing on.

Even if this were true, why does it deserve a vote? Why do you think this was scummy?

You need to read people in iso already to have a strong opinion? I thought you just read the thread.

Yeah, basically I read the thread quickly to get an idea of what wass going on. I took quick notes and to-do notes. One of them is finding what is stinking in the richard wagon.

Because it is scraping through without content. That isn't good.

[Espeonage]

Papa Zito is vig

[Espeonage]

Papa Zito is vig

*face-palm*

[Espeonage]

@ Anon:

"wagon powers activate"

is a stupid thing to say. We were finished with rvs.
@ bv: Don't take that seriously. It is impossible to get anything from what PZ said other than he has a FoS on Sando. 'twas a joke.

[Espeonage]

Ok Saying somt=ething stupid is a bit undescriptive. You said something that is a stupid thing to say when thying to place a vote. It makes your vote seem like it is based off a whim which is unacceptable anywhere other than RVS.

[Espeonage]

But why can't you come to a decision on your own over which of the three deserves your vote instead of just going for the one with the biggest wagon.

And no you're right. i'm actually reading instead.

[Espeonage]

But why can't you come to a decision on your own over which of the three deserves your vote instead of just going for the one with the biggest wagon.

And no you're right. i'm actually reading instead.

No once again you are not reading:

In the same post:

I cant decide which of the voters is the most scummy. All three have some bad flavor attached.

A more deep reread in iso will give me more light about these three.

So?

So do the read before making a vote.

[Espeonage]

Anon. It is a simple chioce between a couple of people. There are better ways to choose other than jumping on the biggest wagon.

[Espeonage]

I will be looking over the case on bv but until then my vote shall stay put.

[Espeonage]

Unvote, Vote: bv

To many sus things here. I didn't even have a proper case on Anon. So, yeah.

[Espeonage]

Seraphim/Farside, the flip-flopping, ok. But the vote under pressure being a scumtell? Why do I get the feeling that if there wasn't a vote that he'd be backing off the wagon and again, be accused of flip-flopping, another scumtell. This latest accusation seems like a catch-22.

Espeonage jumping on the popular wagon strikes me as opportunistic.

Richard seems to have gone from whiny, to angry, to angry with a bit of a plan, to a gambiting master... At least in his own mind.

I think i was the first person on Anon.

[Espeonage]

Ok i need to start paying attention to this game. i have been in lylo in another game and it has been hectic.
I admitted somewhere that my case on Anon wasn't the most solid of things around. That is why I backed off. I needed somewhere to put my vote. The fact that I agree with the case on bv doesn't make me scummy. I can understand how it looks like I just flopped on the wagon but I had nothing to add to the case other than my agreeance with it.

[Espeonage]

picking up Prod. Sorry I have three assessments all due today and have been working on them. i will answer questions in about 8 hours when I have some free time. I hate tuesdays.

[Espeonage]

Ok I am back.

[Espeonage]

@mod: requesting a prod on Espeonage.

And when you get here, Esp, please answer:

I admitted somewhere that my case on Anon wasn't the most solid of things around. That is why I backed off.

So why was Anon's post "one of the worst readthroughs you'd ever seen" again?

and
why was Anon's catchup the worst readthrough ever, while MME's post was full of win?

Also, I agree that Porochaz' reasoning on the Richard being scummy because he thought ckd conducting a policy vote on him (and was right about it!) was really really weak. Ckd said it was partial policy before Porochaz' vote, and obviously the situation came with some context from another game.

Ok. Anon had no good reasoning for going for which of the three he did other than one had more votes than the others.
I will have a look back at when I said that about MME

[Espeonage]

EBWOP: Because MME pointed out something that town really needed to hear at that point.

[Espeonage]

Esp, opinion on Richard?
bv, did you make a conscious decision to be more defined in your stances after you got wagoned?

His absence under pressure speaks to me that the case on him might hold a bit more water than it does on face value. However I am happy with my vote right now.

[Espeonage]

Do you still want to ask me those questions?

[Espeonage]

He was tunnelling and we were barely out of RVS.
What I had against Anon was how he said he had 3 suspects and went for the one with the most votes already on them.

[Espeonage]

ABR isn't giving anything. He said he would come out Day 2 so I will wait for that before making a judgement.
Richard and bv i have already commented last page and through vote.
let me get back to you on the others. I will have to have a little read.

[Espeonage]

EBWOP Nick has to post more. Much more.

[Espeonage]

How does ABR have 28 posts? He has posted nothing.

[Espeonage]

responding to prod b4 end of day.
Sorry i was away by the way. i stayed a few more days than expected at my friends farm.

[Espeonage]

I agree with the lynch of Pom at the moment.
I have been away and am under suspicion so if you have questions ask them.
Pretty sure that boberz is town after reading through that part of day 1.

Anyways,

Vote: Pom

[Espeonage]

Esp: why do you agree with the lynch of Pom? Why is boberz town? Also, you never did your analysis of the major wagons of the last day. You have been away quite a bit and have not contributed a lot to the game.

Pom is lurking in plain sight which unlike inactive lurking is a major scumtell. The rest of the case has already been stated but that hammer yesterday was pretty bad.

Boberz tried pretty hard to make the point he was trying to. At first I was suspicious but then I kinda saw his point even if he didn't state it well. Although the post he made right at the end after bv's claim is probably the worst post he has made unless I am misreading it.

The only other wagon of major note is the one on Richard and sadly he is most probably an unhelpful town. I didn't really ever see the case on him as all that strong when considering lother reasons for certain actions.

[Espeonage]

Pom is lurking in plain sight which unlike inactive lurking is a major scumtell.

I would love to know how you feel that you are doing anything more than me, Espeonage. Yes, that was a question directed at you. You're jumping on a wagon without much of anything yourself. Ahh, hypocrasy at its best.

There is a difference between being away and active lurking.

[Espeonage]

Your vote on me wasn't even about my lack of activity so I fail to see why you are arguing my point by trying to turn it on me.

[Espeonage]

Yeah, I don't buy the claim and want her lynched unless there's a definite way to prove her role.

^This is how I am feeling right now.

[Espeonage]

I see the case on Sando but I REALLY don't like Poms 'fake' claim.

[Espeonage]

Because you are scummy. That is a scummy thing to claim. It is the kind of claim that buys you time and as farside says it is a really useful fakeclaim for a Godfather or any scum for that matter. The vig is gone so you are either going to be lynched. You can go around declaring that your buddies are town when you survive the night and it just too perfect.

[Espeonage]

You hopped on the end of the wagons. Look at CKDs big post and look at yout location on the votecounts.

[Espeonage]

I have never really settled into this game have I?
Ok I am happy with my vote. I don't think there is anyone else on the same level of scummy as Pom is at right now.

ABR raises a good point which only furthur cements my position on the matter.

[Espeonage]

It does seem pretty buddying to clear someone ot very clear considering according to your role yor life was in danger.

[Espeonage]

I have answerd all those points among my posts.

[Espeonage]

FoS: Sando

[Espeonage]

Trends are a natural part of mafia. Momentum is what drives discussion.

BUT

when we wait so long to lynch someone scummy we forget why they were scummy. Pom was always going to be the lynch today but because nobody has gotten off their asses to make this lynch happen we are losing it and letting Pom get away.

[Espeonage]

You know what ABR. I really wish you were right. I love playing as scum and haven't been since I started on this site. I am quite dissapointed to be perfectly honest.

Come tomorrow if you lynch me you will realise that you do have some good ideas but don't trust them all. Pom is scum. That much is obvious from her actions yesterday and tangled feet over her fakeclaim today. I on the other hand am not scum. If I were I definantly would have been more interested in this game. It is my worst tell. The more active I am the more likely I have a PR or am scum. And do you really think that if I were bussing that I would have rode this lynch out even when it was starting to head towards a derail.

btw porochaz is scum. i can feel it in my gut.

[Espeonage]

I have a question. What would be the average amount of scum we are dealing with here? This is by far the largest game I have ever been in and so I would like to have a ballpark amount.

[Espeonage]

in b4 scum flip

[Espeonage]

hmmm

[Espeonage]

Who was of the Porochaz = town opinion. It just seems like a strange choice of lynch. Especially with farside being confirmed town and all.

[Espeonage]

I like case Seraphim made

Vote: Nick

Non-conventional yet still clearly shows how Nick's actions are scummy. I see the case and agree with it.

[Espeonage]

Yup. Esp is also scum, Nick is town.

You're wrong on both counts. Even if I were scum, how would that clear Nick?

[Espeonage]

Prodded: Waiting for something to comment on.

[Espeonage]

Ok. This game is boring.

[Espeonage]

Ok my longer explaination.

This game is getting boring. Something exciting needs to happen and then I might be a bit more active. My vote is where I think it should be and I will jump in to the discussion when i actually have something constructive to say.

[Espeonage]

I'm happy with the points made. The biggest thing that makes me agree with it is that scum are preoccupied with appearing town. All those points I agree can be seen as scumtells and thus are all the more solid thanks to their, for want of a better word, weirdness. Scum overlook that type of thing in their play. Those kind of slips are better evidence than conventional scumtells imo.

[Espeonage]

In light of 1376 I really feel like hammering. Sando claim please.

[Espeonage]

Second to last vote on a wagon is in theory meant to be the scummiest. If you look at that votecount with the idea of sando as scum it makes sense as seemingly perfect bus. People have accepted the wagon and have given it support so you jump on just before the hammer so everyone is thinking about mr hammer over the night and not paying attention to your L-2 bus.

[Espeonage]

I was making the point that my little addition to the case was just the little bit of icing on the ckae. He already has a strong case on him.

[Espeonage]

My head hurts.

[Espeonage]

fuck it
Hammer time.

Unvote, Vote:Sando

[Espeonage]

I like the tell ON TOP of the case.
@ Javert: The second to last tell is really the thing that set me off. Using the tell I gave is only really useful when you are looking at finding the last piece of evidence that puts you on the road of wanting the lynch and being suspicious. I know that isn't what you want me to say but that is how it is.

[Espeonage]

I'm sorry. I lied again. It's like a compulsive thing now.

I am in fact the scum. You got me guys. My master plan in bussing my partner Sando was to pull the doc protect so I could target Richard with impunity last night. With Richard (aka Austin Powers) out of the picture, there is nothing the world can do to stop me. HAHAHA

Ummm.

Vote: ABR

[Espeonage]

Ok how is ABR not scum?

[Espeonage]

Ok he claimed scum while seeming dead serious. How is that not a confession?

[Espeonage]

Some part of everyone always wants to share their secrets. Jokes are usually the way this gets done especially when they don't really want others to know the truth. They are just getting the idea out and therefore appeasing the little subconscious voice telling them to share their secrets.

ABR is scum, end of story.

[Espeonage]

Some part of everyone always wants to share their secrets. Jokes are usually the way this gets done especially when they don't really want others to know the truth. They are just getting the idea out and therefore appeasing the little subconscious voice telling them to share their secrets.

wow, really?

ya

[Espeonage]

Hey, Nick, why the sudden 180 on ABR? I totally expected you to be hitting him hard today after the backtrack.

IMO, Espy has a stronger case against her, and no one really wants to vote ABR, for whatever reason.

Guy. I'm a guy.
And I still hold that ABR is trying to pull the veil over everyones eyes.

[Espeonage]

Gah. There is nothing I feel like i have anything to add my opinion to. I am happy with my vote.

[Espeonage]

ABR for his fake countewrclaim then calling himself scum gambit.
Nick for the reasons i voted him yesterday.

In this game I am fairly useless. But honestly why do you guys keep me around when you find me scummy and non pro-town? In most of my other games I'm not. I suppose I am only just coming out of my newbie shell. It just so happened that I started this game while still a noob. Got myself in a position where I'm not into the game and have other games that are alot more interesting than this one.

[Espeonage]

So I'm scum even though I've never lynched a townie, was a counterwagon at one point, and I've been targeted by scummier people?

K.

You do realise that at this point in the game your first point is probably not a good thing.

[Espeonage]

Unvote

I need to do some thinking.

[Espeonage]

Sorry I missed that post. I have a tendancy to continue with the same play style throughout games. Once I start a game I will for the most part play that game through with the same mind set. The longer I play with that playstyle the harder it is for me to change that. Usually the way that RVS pans out will shape the way I play the whole game.

Take one of my finished games where I was the only non-american in the game. I had a different timezone to everyone and the game started while I was asleep. The game was almost out of RVS by the time I made my first post and for the whole game I played as an outsider. Contrast that with a game where I was the white horse of the town and you start to see how eratic my play is between games but stoic once in a game.

I don't want to replace out and that is why I just Unvoted. I want to take some time to mull over what has gone on and actually think about my vote instead of paying closer attention to my other games. Give me a few hours or so and I will come back and vote.

[Espeonage]

EBWOP major ninja'd

[Espeonage]

A noobish one where I felt intimidated by the size and names in this game.

I was playing agaist the mod of my first game. Of course I was going to get stage fright.

[Espeonage]

I wasn't woting because at the time I had no idea where my head was at.

Anyway the last few posts have convinced me.

Vote: Seraphim

I found myself not really agreeing too much with his 1607. The last bit looks like a major bus to me. Saying he has suspicion and a case without actually putting his vote down. Just to add to the mass of points in his casefile.

[Espeonage]

Sorry. I checked the vote count not your post.

Vote stands though.

[Espeonage]

There are stronger cases out there. If you guys really thought I was scum for those points early in the game that you brought up I would be dead by now. Go on one of the wagons with a better case or find someone that you can make a better case against. I don't equal a good lynch.

[Espeonage]

VT

[Espeonage]

1. I consider my vote and unvote on Anon to have been good reasoning.
2. There was one point in MME's post that was a good bit.
3. I saw no reason to stop voting for bv. Turned out a was right to keep my vote there.
4. There was a case on Sando already. I looked for something I could add. You're bringing up stuff I did day 1. Am I not allowed to bring up stuff from a few days ago?
5. Why do I need to scumhunt when the other members of the town get in before I can and already have the cases built on people I too think of as scummy. Why should I have to make a completely new case when there is a case on the person I want to vote for. I have tried to add stuff to the wagons I have joined. Point 4 is me doing exactly that.

I don't see how my case is holding water tbh.

[Espeonage]

In response to CKDs question. Yes my role PM differed slightly in the last sentance.

[Espeonage]

confirming.

[Espeonage]

Mo town was the first game I ever played semi-decently. I actually found that my opinion was valued for once because I wasn't as intimidated by the number of players or by the player group as a whole.

You will notice that I have steadily become more and more vocal in this game as the number of players has dropped. Argueing that that is because of the pressure on me isn't really applicable because I have been under scrutiny the whole game pretty much.

I guess I am happier playing in games with less players. I don't take notes when I play because I normally retain less that way. (I have a weird brain) But there gets a point when there are too many players to keep in your head at once.

Basically what I am saying is that I don't really see much difference in my play there as apposed to here.

[Espeonage]

I played pretty crap at the start but I'm loosening up now that there are fewer people to focus on.

[Espeonage]

Seraphim and/or Nick

[Espeonage]

I'm back. This game is very slow now.

[Espeonage]

This whole thing with the role PM stuff is WIFOM. I believe ckd in his claim and I read Sera's question as a rolefish so that he has better knowledge for when he would have to claim VT. No sure if anyone else sees that but that is what I saw.

[Espeonage]

Today is deadline guyz

[Espeonage]

in b4 scum flip.

[Espeonage]

Vote: Nick

[Espeonage]

Hey just because I thought he was scum doesn't mean I am going to discount other people that could be scum. What does it matter anyway? Seraphim was town.

[Espeonage]

I did, I think if anything here there's less scumhunting here than there. I mean this game has been longer, and he's been around more so I'd certainly expect more from him. I am admittedly only going off memory of the previous game but despite him being 'scummy' I think he did enough to be able to be read as newb town by me, here I don't get that at all. It's pretty much the opposite.

Yeah, my suspicions are generally based on the things he's said/done 'in the moment' I guess. His just lack of utter desire to do pretty much fucking anything, I mean his day 1 play isn't exactly stellar or anything so it's not like I'm ignoring shining moments of townieness.

Dybeck seems content to pretty much sit with his vote on me every day. I mean if he thinks I'm scum for 3 days straight surely he should be doing more to push the lynch.


As for a quicklynch on Espeonage, it's pretty obvious that won't happen but at the same time I'm not going to wait to vote for him just because he's claimed vanilla. My vote isn't intended to pressure, it's intended to help get him lynched.

I just a had look back on that game. You certainly look alot more tense and aggresive in this game.

[Espeonage]

My mind at the moment. I have 4 town reads and there are a couple of neutrals and the rest hold the scum.

[Espeonage]

Everyone turns up evidence through scumhunting Mr. ABR but not everyone turns stuff up that cement them as town. CKD is town done. I am willing to hear more about your other two though.

[Espeonage]

In a range he is on the scummy side due to meta from a game I played with him. (He already brought it up as a point against me but it incriminates him to a point as well) I'm on the fence with his case though.

[Espeonage]

Unvote, Vote: Jahudo

[Espeonage]

What other explaination do you require? A vote is a vote. Unlike alot of people that play Mafia I like to play innocent until proven guilty. I am free to agree with someone on the chance that they turn out to be town. This doesn't mean I don't think the slot isn't scummy, it just means I like the case.

Somewhere between not see and not care.

[Espeonage]

Question: Would a hider die if they hid with a third party role?

[Espeonage]

Just got prodded. I'm still here. There just isn't much to say.

[Espeonage]

Nah I'm cool dybeck atm. More claims than neccessary can't be good.

[Espeonage]

Bob. I know why you would be sceptical. Vanilla townie goes with whatever name we got given. Still explains the role.

[Espeonage]

OMGDS

[Espeonage]

UNVOTE: Unvote
VOTE: Nick

[Espeonage]

ebwop
first time I used those tags.

[Espeonage]

If I could eat porridge I would take that over stew. OH YEAH.

Also ckd is town unless is a bad scum. Dybeck could be scum though.

[Espeonage]

Unvote

Need to get my head right.

[Espeonage]

I'm lost.

[Espeonage]

waiting...

[Espeonage]

V/LA for 48 hoursish

[Espeonage]

Nick claim now.
Dybeck full claim straight after. Also just to clarify, full means full. Town needs info because there is WAY to much frikin wifom floating around it isn't funny anymore. ABR post some reasons as well. You may like being a bitch but this is ridiculous even by my standards. I'm going to do an iso of farside in the near future there has to be a reason she wasn't killed.

At the moment I can see Dybeck and Nick being siblings.

[Espeonage]

ABR, your thoughts on dybeck?

Bob, where was Nick's first post with a claim?

The only reason I'm not voting him is because he's the only person who's claimed investigative powers.

Why is that a bad point. Not trying to second guess the mod here but most games have some sort of investigative role.

[Espeonage]

Question. Do you get any alignment information or is it just vanilla or non-vanilla?

[Espeonage]

WARNING: Set-up WIFOM post. Sue me.

Ok lets look at this reasonably. No counter invesigative role has come up except for the Hider. ABR has claimed his claim was fake. If he lied about it being a fake claim he really needs to voice it. Now, Looking at the size of the game it would make sense that there would be some other form of investigative role in the game. Also look at the amount of non powered roles have been outed so far. This indicates that there can't be that many scum powers and the remaining towns should have one or maybe two power roles. All things considered game balance-wise Dybeck's claim makes perfect sense.

[Espeonage]

Leaning towards Jahudo. This is going to be an imortant and long day though.

[Espeonage]

Back. I have stuff to catch up on first. Sorry Mod. I thought a message in my sig would be enough.

[Espeonage]

VOTE: Jahudo

[Espeonage]

If someone can provide perfectly clear and legitimate evidence as to why Dybeck's claim doesn't make perfect sense with the setup information we currently have, then let them share it. If not then the hammer will not be coming from me.

[Espeonage]

I made a post a few pages as to why it makes sense for town to have a role similar to that. I can accept that it would also make sense as a scum role though.

[Espeonage]

i think that was because i was lookinh like the one least likely to jump on his wagon. idk.

[Espeonage]

UNVOTE: Jahudo
VOTE: ABR

[Espeonage]

Going back to the Sando lynch ABRs fake counterclaim has been bugging me all game but it has never been at the fore front of my thoughts. Your vote on him gave me a bit more confidance that I might be right in my suspicion.

Is it not a very good buss when you counterclaimed your scumbuddy to get them lynched. It almost becomes WIFOM of who would ever do that as scum, but it fits perfectly. Also a bit of LaL in that to.

[Espeonage]

He knew it would be a long game. Also knew he could get away with it because noone else was counterclaiming Sando. It just makes sense to me. All bar one game my gut has been accurate late game. Now is not a great time to stop trusting it now. Of couse that is a flimsy case but eh. It'll do to be going on with. Town needs a new angle because to be honest, discussion is kinda licking.

[Espeonage]

^ Look at Poms lynch. There was precedent there that the lynch could still have happened. And Pom's claim wouldn't have been the hardest role to prove itself either.

[Espeonage]

does it really matter at this point? Deadline is really close so we need to decide. Dybeck or no. If no then who and we need to do it now so that once Faraday is caught up we can end this day.

[Espeonage]

my spidey snece is telling me tomorrow will actually be fun.

[Espeonage]

BAH, Go Town.

[Espeonage]

I really wish I had started this game better.