Newbie 927 - FrEeky Town - Game Over

My Milked Eek
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Post Post #150  (ISO)  » Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:30 pm

>> Official Votecount 1.06

[ 4 ] SinSpawn9000 :: Apayah, Sotty7, MagnaofIllusion, Zombeh-Pug
[ 1 ] greenindirt :: animorphv1
[ 1 ] Apayah :: SinSpawn9000
[ 1 ] animorphv1 :: evilsnail
[ 1 ] Zombeh-Pug :: greenindirt

Not Voting: [ sarali ]

With 9 alive, it takes 5 votes to lynch.
Deadline: April 2nd, Noon GMT
Eek!

SinSpawn9000
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Post Post #151  (ISO)  » Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:06 pm

Ani, read what people post, I said that after I went back and re-read the posts that I rendered that part moot. I think I confused avatars(dont ask me how). But my first pick for scum was sotty but that has passed, for now.

As for zp, I am almost willing to chalk that up to being a newbie, but after being told twice and still saying the same thing I am not going to give his that leisure.

Also, I will go get those quotes tonight after I get off work if you guys still want them.
The paradoxical formula of time.

MagnaofIllusion
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Post Post #152  (ISO)  » Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:03 pm

Sotty7 wrote:What's your opinion on Ani?


My read on Ani right now is neutral. I like that he’s active and appears to be scum hunting. I don’t particularly like the Gut scum-team read the following two quotes –

Ani wrote: Most of it. Afterall, this has been mentioned before, at page 4, there isn't much info to go around.

If your sure of something you should always just do it. If not, then hang on for a while.


He says that most of the initial read was guts only with little information to be had. But regarding Day 1 scum-team calls he says that you should come forth with it if you are sure. His attack on Green for not scum-hunting is likewise troubling.

@Ani – Why in this game are you playing in a style so different from you acknowledged playstyle?

evilsnail wrote:These are people I've found myself agreeing with mostly and who seem to be sincerely trying to find scum.

I still don't like SinSpawn's Apayah vote, but, other than that, not much to bother me. MagnaofIllusion is lurkish and I haven't seen him contribute really. Zombeh-Pug has mostly repeated what others have said about Sin, not a lot of scumhunting here.


Can you specify what you mean regarding agreeing with those players? As a more experienced player have you ever encountered a player who was a convincing scum-hunter but was in fact Mafia?

In light of the statements made by Sinspawn and Zombeh since you last posted have you changed your assessment of them?

@ Zombeh – Consider this an Nth request for further explanation as to why a Hammer so early in Day 1 is warranted.

I’d like to see Sarali’s comments regarding everything that has occurred since her V/LA notice before we even consider an end of the day.
"I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"

Pretty much Geriatric game restricted at this point ... unless there are players I REALLY want to play with.

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Post Post #153  (ISO)  » Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:39 pm

Also, I will go get those quotes tonight after I get off work if you guys still want them.

Well, I want them
I’d like to see Sarali’s comments regarding everything that has occurred since her V/LA notice before we even consider an end of the day.

This

@Ani
Sotty wrote:He has also explained the details around this “bad logic”. Do you not believe his explanation and think he was serious?

I believe Sotty is referring to greenindirt's logic, you're attacking Sin of bad logic because he's using greenindirt's logic. But greenindirt have explained that he's using poor logic to see who would jump on with him.Do you not believe his explanation and think he was serious?
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greenindirt
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Post Post #154  (ISO)  » Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:23 pm

Apayah wrote:But greenindirt have explained that he's using poor logic to see who would jump on with him.Do you not believe his explanation and think he was serious?


Just to clarify, that isn't exactly the reason. To cause discussion and see how people react, yes, Sin agreeing with me is just one possible outcome.

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Post Post #155  (ISO)  » Sat Mar 20, 2010 1:03 am

Hey guys, I stole appropriated this from another game. I think it's brilliant, give your opinions.

Elmo wrote:http://www.fourmilab.ch/javascrypt/jscrypt.html is good. Everyone should do this now:
  1. Hit Generate
  2. Copy & Paste the Key to somewhere where you won't lose it (preferably notes)
  3. Enter your role unambiguously in Plain Text box (e.g. Vanilla Townie)
  4. Hit "Encrypt"
  5. Copy & Paste Cipher Text into thread
So I would end up posting:
##### Encrypted: decrypt with http://www.fourmilab.ch/javascrypt/
ZZZZZ ASIAE MUMDL XDCUH QBMTQ VWUCR VEIOI ACJWT DIRWW JGKIV QVQFB
PHQDB FFIQK ONUTV LFLJO FIPIG VGNWP PPNLC QNGJO EBEUA UANWO WBADX
ERBGK USJPQ UMBJJ EOOFP OJOZZ YYYYY
##### End encrypted message
in the thread.

Then, when someone is forced to claim, they post their Key in the thread. To verify a claim, simply copy & paste the above into Cipher Text, then copy & paste provided Key (in this case, BXBCN-BHZZR-ZEWBW-LTABK-YGCZX-NGWCX-PUKOJ-CWLHN-KKCDV-GPDIW-OFBVT-DNHOA) and Hit Decrypt. Role should appear in Plain Text box.


It basically forces scum to choose whether they want to claim as PR D1. If they do and the actual PR becomes confirmed, then the scum is fucked. Totally secure as well.

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Post Post #156  (ISO)  » Sat Mar 20, 2010 4:15 am

It basically forces scum to choose whether they want to claim as PR D1

Good scum players prepared their fakeclaim from day 1 anyways :?. But I guess this limits their options because they can only fakeclaim one PR. I think its good, so you're proposing we use it greenindirt?
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evilsnail
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Post Post #157  (ISO)  » Sat Mar 20, 2010 4:20 am

MagnaofIllusion wrote: Can you specify what you mean regarding agreeing with those players? As a more experienced player have you ever encountered a player who was a convincing scum-hunter but was in fact Mafia?

Sure, I can clarify. In the case of sarali and Sotty, for instance, their responses to various events in the thread have been pretty similar to my own, so that increases my confidence that they are coming from the same place I am (a pro-town perspective). Scum has different info, so a different perspective. This isn't an infallible town tell by any means, but it's reliable enough. And yeah sure, there are definitely players who are good enough as scum that they appear to be good scum-hunters. Mr Stoofer, for instance. Those are players that you need to play a couple of games against to develop a good idea of what their scum tells are (in Stoof's case, for instance, his scum reads can sometimes be too accurate as scum).

MagnaofIllusion wrote:In light of the statements made by Sinspawn and Zombeh since you last posted have you changed your assessment of them?

Sinspawn, no. Zombeh, yes. He doesn't come off very well in his exchange with greenindirt. Green basically has to tell him to put a vote on Sin and his willingness to lynch Sin feels like scum overestimating the town's confidence in the Sin wagon. I also didn't like that he accused me of trying to slide my way through the day, when I stated all my reads explicitly in the post before. So Zombeh and ani are now my top candidates for scum.

Apayah wrote:Meh, other people already pointed out why you're scummy. to be honest tho my gut says he's town even tho my logic says he's scum. Is it possible to be 'too scummy'.

This is how I feel about Sin too, but I find that my gut is genuinely accurate in such cases. I really feel we'd be better off with a Zombeh or ani lynch.

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Post Post #158  (ISO)  » Sat Mar 20, 2010 4:27 am

@greenindirt: I don't see any drawbacks to it strategy-wise (it's basically the same as asking everyone to breadcrumb their role in one of their first few posts, only more foolproof) and it's a clever idea. However, it does completely undermine one of the fundamental aspects of the game, fake-claims and detecting them, which is why I'm opposed to using it. I'd much rather catch a scum fake-claim on the basis of skill than on the basis of some encryption algorithm. It just takes the fun out of it. Also, it's not a strategy that the set-up is designed to take into account. If people do start using it, it just means the game has to be altered so that it stops being an effective strategy. That seems pretty counterproductive.

My Milked Eek
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Post Post #159  (ISO)  » Sat Mar 20, 2010 5:05 am

I'm checking with VRK if this is allowed in newbie games. It's not in my ruleset, but I can imagine that there might be an objection to this.
Eek!

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Post Post #160  (ISO)  » Sat Mar 20, 2010 5:12 am

This is how I feel about Sin too, but I find that my gut is genuinely accurate in such cases. I really feel we'd be better off with a Zombeh or ani lynch.

Eh, I might go for a Sin lynch or a Z-P lynch, but not ani lynch. Unless some new evidence comes up.

it's basically the same as asking everyone to breadcrumb their role in one of their first few posts, only more foolproof

Also, it's not a strategy that the set-up is designed to take into account.

Yes, I think this might gives town an unfair advantage. I'm still not sure whether to use this even if the rules allows.

@Sotty
Who do you think is the scummiest player at the moment?
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Vel-Rahn Koon
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Post Post #161  (ISO)  » Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:39 am

greenindirt wrote:Hey guys, I stole appropriated this from another game. I think it's brilliant, give your opinions.

Elmo wrote:http://www.fourmilab.ch/javascrypt/jscrypt.html is good. Everyone should do this now:
  1. Hit Generate
  2. Copy & Paste the Key to somewhere where you won't lose it (preferably notes)
  3. Enter your role unambiguously in Plain Text box (e.g. Vanilla Townie)
  4. Hit "Encrypt"
  5. Copy & Paste Cipher Text into thread
So I would end up posting:
##### Encrypted: decrypt with http://www.fourmilab.ch/javascrypt/
ZZZZZ ASIAE MUMDL XDCUH QBMTQ VWUCR VEIOI ACJWT DIRWW JGKIV QVQFB
PHQDB FFIQK ONUTV LFLJO FIPIG VGNWP PPNLC QNGJO EBEUA UANWO WBADX
ERBGK USJPQ UMBJJ EOOFP OJOZZ YYYYY
##### End encrypted message
in the thread.

Then, when someone is forced to claim, they post their Key in the thread. To verify a claim, simply copy & paste the above into Cipher Text, then copy & paste provided Key (in this case, BXBCN-BHZZR-ZEWBW-LTABK-YGCZX-NGWCX-PUKOJ-CWLHN-KKCDV-GPDIW-OFBVT-DNHOA) and Hit Decrypt. Role should appear in Plain Text box.


It basically forces scum to choose whether they want to claim as PR D1. If they do and the actual PR becomes confirmed, then the scum is fucked. Totally secure as well.


Hi all,

Keep this out of the Newbie queue. You're here to learn to play the game, not figure out how to develop some weird sort of breaking strategy.

This is technically covered under "no invisible/small text allowed", since both those methods and this method are designed to present hidden information out in the open. I've asked MME (and I'll be sending a PM to all the Newbie Mods) to alter his rules set to explicitly forbid encrypted text as well.


-Vel
Newbie Queue ListMod
The Newbie Queue ALWAYS needs ICs and Mods!

Are you willing to help out? Check the Queue title to see what roles we need filled!

My Milked Eek
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Post Post #162  (ISO)  » Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:59 am

Ruleset has been updated: Misc/Mech rule #1 contains a no-encryption rule.
Eek!

MagnaofIllusion
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Post Post #163  (ISO)  » Sat Mar 20, 2010 8:08 am

I'll be V/LA til Monday in the a.m. EDT.
"I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"

Pretty much Geriatric game restricted at this point ... unless there are players I REALLY want to play with.

evilsnail
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Post Post #164  (ISO)  » Sat Mar 20, 2010 8:33 am

Vel-Rahn Koon wrote:This is technically covered under "no invisible/small text allowed", since both those methods and this method are designed to present hidden information out in the open. I've asked MME (and I'll be sending a PM to all the Newbie Mods) to alter his rules set to explicitly forbid encrypted text as well.

Ah, this is the rule it violates. I knew it was off in some sense. I mean, it's definitely against the spirit of the game, but it couldn't pinpoint whether it violated any rules. Well, thanks for the clarification.

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Post Post #165  (ISO)  » Sat Mar 20, 2010 1:15 pm

Ah, then that won't be happening. Should have PMed the mod, bad me.

Moving on and holding back, here's a question. Had the rules allowed for mass encrypted role claim, what would have been your thoughts on it? Please respond in a more filled out manner than "it's against the spirit of the game".

Apayah wrote:Yes, I think this might gives town an unfair advantage. I'm still not sure whether to use this even if the rules allows.

I thought this post was of interest, in particular. If you're town and playing to your win condition, why would you not want to use this technique?

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Post Post #166  (ISO)  » Sat Mar 20, 2010 1:25 pm

@green
Because it gives town an unfair advantage. You can call me a Scrub or whatever, but I like to play fair. Beside playing fair gives you more satisfaction when you win.
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animorpherv1
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Post Post #167  (ISO)  » Sat Mar 20, 2010 4:06 pm

@green:

I like it. IMO, it makes sucm decide on a claim early, and they have to stick to it.
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Post Post #168  (ISO)  » Sun Mar 21, 2010 2:03 am

*drums up activity*

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Post Post #169  (ISO)  » Sun Mar 21, 2010 6:05 am

I like it. IMO, it makes scum decide on a claim early, and they have to stick to it.

VRK already said we can't use it, so let's move on to other things.
*drums up activity*

It's weekends, give people some slack.
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Post Post #170  (ISO)  » Sun Mar 21, 2010 8:21 pm

Sorry guys, my weekend was crazy busy. I will catch up with what I have missed tomorrow. Bare with me.

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Post Post #171  (ISO)  » Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:56 am

animorpherv1 Post 149 wrote:
animorpherv1 wrote:
Sotty7 wrote:
animorpherv1 Post 127 wrote:
SinSpawn9000 wrote:Where is this bad logic of mine you speak of, also its not bad logic just because its not your logic.


If your using the same logic as other people that I call bad, then I call your logic bad.

He has also explained the details around this “bad logic”. Do you not believe his explanation and think he was serious?


Let me ISO him and take a check, as it must hav been scattered through, and I'l lanswer this.


I don't think he was serious. Also:

SinSpawn9000 wrote:Animorph: Replaced my first scum pick. Is openly and aggressively defending another player without request and when that player is in no danger.


You can't figure out if someone is scum with 1 post!!!!! IMO, trying too hard, and buddying with green.

So you are thinking Green/Sin? Where is this buddying you are talking about?

SinSpawn9000 Post 151 wrote:Ani, read what people post, I said that after I went back and re-read the posts that I rendered that part moot. I think I confused avatars(dont ask me how). But my first pick for scum was sotty but that has passed, for now.

Can you explain why you thought I was scum? I still don't understand it.

SinSpawn9000 Post 151 wrote:Also, I will go get those quotes tonight after I get off work if you guys still want them.

I want them and I think your reluctance to provide them is hella scummy considering it is the bulk of your case on Apayah. You are stalling. Why?

Apayah Post 160 wrote:
This is how I feel about Sin too, but I find that my gut is genuinely accurate in such cases. I really feel we'd be better off with a Zombeh or ani lynch.

Eh, I might go for a Sin lynch or a Z-P lynch, but not ani lynch. Unless some new evidence comes up.

Why is Z-P above Ani in lynch preference?

Apayah Post 160 wrote:@Sotty
Who do you think is the scummiest player at the moment?

Sin by far, hence the vote. I think his case on you is weak and based on nothing but semantics. His stalling in proving quotes makes me believe he doesn't actually have anything against you.

Second is Ani. I don't like his pressure on Green despite the explanations to his behavior. It took me asking him a question several times before he said he didn't believe Green and then he (seemingly) randomly adds Sin to Green and says they are buddying with out providing any evidence to the fact.

People on the edge of my radar are Z-P who needs to get in here and explain himself and sarali simply because we need to hear from her since her V/LA.

greenindirt Post 165 wrote:Ah, then that won't be happening. Should have PMed the mod, bad me.

Moving on and holding back, here's a question. Had the rules allowed for mass encrypted role claim, what would have been your thoughts on it? Please respond in a more filled out manner than "it's against the spirit of the game".

Apayah wrote:Yes, I think this might gives town an unfair advantage. I'm still not sure whether to use this even if the rules allows.

I thought this post was of interest, in particular. If you're town and playing to your win condition, why would you not want to use this technique?

It was a good idea in that it backs the scum into a corner early on which is always a great thing. What I didn't really like about it was it was a method to trap scum that doesn't actually rely on any scum hunting which is supposed to be the whole point of this game. I do agree that it is against the spirit of the game because of that. I don't know about anyone else, but sorting out which claim is correct in a counter claim war can often be one of the more intense part of the game. That technique rubs all that out.

Ani, do you think Green suggesting the encryption thing makes more like to be scum, town or is it a null tell?

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Post Post #172  (ISO)  » Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:05 am

Sotty7 wrote:Why is Z-P above Ani in lynch preference?

To be honest I'm kinda confused about this atm. I'm gonna ISO ani after I get some sleep.
Sotty7 wrote:And sarali simply because we need to hear from her since her V/LA.

Yep, she should be returning from her V/LA soon.
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Post Post #173  (ISO)  » Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:26 pm

Let me first say that I have been very busy recently and yesterday morning while I was collecting quotes my monitor died, thankfully I found everything I wanted.


Apayah:

Posts 35/38: Overcomplicating RVS, Random is not random.

Post 58: "If I was scum" Always a scumtell, townies never use this phrase.

Post 85: Prying info that I was going to reveal later anyway.

Post 120: Asks, "do we look town" Another scumtell, townies do not ask people if they are thought to be town, they often ask what others think of them, but never a direct "do you think I am town".


Animorpherv1:

Post 91: Accuses me of bad logic with only example as me agreeing with Green on one point.

Post 93: Defending Apayah against Green while attacking Green.

Post 97: Again defending Ap and in the same post tries to distance himself from Ap.

Post 99: Attacks Green for "not scumhunting" when that is clearly not the case.

Post 107: Says I am buddy with Green because I agreed on one point, I would add however that the town should ban together so multiple players buddying together should be a good thing.

Post 113: Says "Sin and Green have same logic", I have not expressed my logic to coincide with what Green thinks on more than one occasion.



Now how Z-P has been playing does worry me a bit but I would have to look over his things and think on it more.

Sorry Sotty, I just remember you jumped on something I said but as of now I dont have suspicions of you.
The paradoxical formula of time.

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Post Post #174  (ISO)  » Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:44 pm

Zombeh has been prodded. Post to push votecount to next page.
Eek!

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