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Post Post #34 (isolation #0) » Wed Mar 17, 2010 2:56 pm

Post by Jahudo »

I was hoping there'd be more players from boost mafia. nobody else from the original. :(

Vote: Papa Zito
- too much AtP, appeal to piracy.
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Post Post #49 (isolation #1) » Thu Mar 18, 2010 12:50 am

Post by Jahudo »

My Milked Eek wrote:
Vote: ABR

Gogogo competing wagons.
Why did you choose that wagon? Both ABR and PZ had two votes at the time.


Fun Fact:The anteater has terrible eyesight but a keen sense of smell. While playing mafia, instead of saying IGMEOY, the anteater will say IGMNOY.
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Post Post #67 (isolation #2) » Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:02 pm

Post by Jahudo »

Pomegranate wrote:
Espeonage wrote:Obviously Porochaz/Dybeck/Jahudo/Seraphim are all anteater scum.
We must be the ants!
Are you one of the people in that list, Pom?
Trying to buddy up?
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Post Post #78 (isolation #3) » Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:52 am

Post by Jahudo »

@Bio Hazard, DocPotter, Anon: Where are you? Do you know the game has started?
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Post Post #94 (isolation #4) » Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:17 pm

Post by Jahudo »

RichardGHP wrote:
Seraphim wrote:
RichardGHP wrote:
curiouskarmadog wrote:
vote richard


have I done this yet?

is it too early to say I am tunneling?
If this is some kind of attemp at a Policy Lynch, please stop.
What makes you say this might be a policy lynch?
I've played with him before and he's under the impression that I'm terrible at the game.

Does it look random to you? He voted me 3 times for emphasis.
If the games are over, can you provide links?
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Post Post #114 (isolation #5) » Sat Mar 20, 2010 6:03 am

Post by Jahudo »

"Paging Doctor Potter to the game thread... Paging Doctor Potter to the game thread."
RichardGHP wrote:Mafia 107. Link in my sig.
Ongoing game is ongoing. So i'm not going to look at it.

But why tell him to stop? do you think CKD is scum going for an easy wagon; do you think he is misguided; something else?
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Post Post #148 (isolation #6) » Sun Mar 21, 2010 1:50 am

Post by Jahudo »

RichardGHP wrote:No, you guys have it all wrong. I'm not throwing a tanrum at all. Way to misrep.
How does someone misrep a gambit? The point of a gambit is that noone knows your gambiting, isn't it?

unvote;
Vote: Anon
cause active lurking and already having a vote on him.

FoS: DocPotter
cause active lurking, but not having a vote on him.
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Post Post #164 (isolation #7) » Sun Mar 21, 2010 7:39 am

Post by Jahudo »

Fun FactAnon has posted 12 times on mafiascum.net since this game started. Two Thursday posts occurred in the same sub-forum as this game, within minutes of posts 34 and 35 of this game.

DocPotter has posted 11 times on mafiascum.net since this game started. The last post was on Thursday, which occurred in the same sub-forum as this game, within minutes of posts 49 and 50 of this game.


So Anon and DocPotter, how could you have missed this game when it was at the top of the sub-forum you both were playing in?
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Post Post #171 (isolation #8) » Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:38 pm

Post by Jahudo »

The part about Richard that bothers me is him saying this was somehow part of his plan. It could be backtracking, but I want to hear him out fully before I judge. Right now I am not convinced any of this is scummy behavior.
bv310 wrote:Also, yes I realize the irony of me calling someone a lurker.
Are you known for lurking, or being called a lurker?
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Post Post #190 (isolation #9) » Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:37 am

Post by Jahudo »

@bv310, what changed in Richard after your ISO read, to help you get a better read on him? Talk about what you think a newbie playing scum looks like? What specific things do they try to do / not do as opposed to a newbie playing town.

@Richard: do you consider yourself a newbie? explain when you decided to test for reactions, and what you learned from that exercise.
------------------

DocPotter, come on down! You're the next contestant on "Lurkers need to Post!"


unvote;
Vote: DocPotter
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Post Post #273 (isolation #10) » Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:50 pm

Post by Jahudo »

@Seraphim: How is my DocPotter suspicion invalid? I also don't see how I'm focusing solely on lurkers. I thought I was waiting for Richard's defense.

And I still want Richard to explain his gambit more. It would be scummy if he retroactively decided he was acting up for reactions, just to get pressure off him instead of going the town route and moving forward with town play.
bv310 wrote:
Espeonage wrote:Papa Zito is vig
Holy rolefishing, Batman!

Seriously, what possible benefit is there to announcing it? If he is, then now he's been outed. If he isn't, then odds are he'll be NK'd and we lose a valuable townie.
bv310, have you seen anything in Zito's game to make you wonder if he was a vig? It doesn't feel like rolefishing to me if the original player is initiating the speculation that way. Espe's post is fluff though.
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Post Post #280 (isolation #11) » Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:22 am

Post by Jahudo »

I understand the argument that pushing Richard or lurkers is an easy way out for scum right now, but each can be valid cases for this early day 1 stage when cases aren't always big or full of confidence. The idea is to make a mountain out of a molehill and see if it leads to more suspicious behavior. Anyone trying to stop it from occurring at all looks anti-town to me... but not necessarily scum and definitely not defending richard/lurkers.

No one looks scum right now for stopping a thread of discussion, but they are anti-town for giving Richard and the lurkers an easy out from answering questions--even if its on small points that might not lead anywhere.
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Post Post #308 (isolation #12) » Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:57 am

Post by Jahudo »

bv310 wrote:I only saw that one thing, which was how I breadcrumbed vig in a different game (offsite). That's why I was worried when someone flat called him it.

Jahudo, I'm pretty sure he just made up the reaction fishing thing afterwards.
So you used something similar. What's the difference between everyone seeing "If I was a vig", and someone saying "hey look at that thing he said".
-------------------

I still think Richard needs to explain his reactions plan; when he started it and why, and what he got from it.

unvote;
Vote: RichardGHP
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Post Post #326 (isolation #13) » Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:23 pm

Post by Jahudo »

I don't agree with any Anon suspicion out there. It looks more like he's defending his own opinion on a tell rather than defending Richard. I disagree with his opinion, but that does not make him scummy.

And there's only been one flip-flop from bv right? He first said Richard looked like newbie town, then after a re-read he said leaning scum. I don't recall him going back to town after that?
RichardGHP wrote:Faraday in Post 128 comes off as scum pushing for a mislynch, as the only reason he stated for voting me was the fact that I apparantly wanted to be lynched. Everyone asking to be lynched should be lynched is horrible logic too.

Finally, Seraphim in Post 132 gives me a strong pro-town read, since scum would be more likely to use the fact that I wanted to be lynched as an excuse for a quickwagon. The fact that Seraphim takes the time to question my view tells me that he's town.
Um, what's the difference between how Richard responded and how Seraphim responded? Just because Seraphim was already voting you does not mean he would have held his vote in post 132. It looks like both players gave you the same amount of pressure while asking you to explain yourself.
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Post Post #340 (isolation #14) » Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:17 am

Post by Jahudo »

Richard's vote on Faraday is a start in the right direction, but he still doesn't look like scumhunting townie.
ABR wrote:Mafia ain't what it used to be.
What do you want it to be? Do you not have suspicions on people yet?
NickF227 wrote:I think his vote for farside after him saying that he thinks a town farside would post like that is a bit weird.
I don't think this is an accurate description, besides the question on why Richard left his vote on farside when he revealed his reactions.
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Post Post #392 (isolation #15) » Sat Mar 27, 2010 6:03 am

Post by Jahudo »

Hi Ojanen
Ojanen wrote:@Jahudo, you mentioned Boost mafia; did I understand correctly that this is a sequel? If yes, can you explain the mechanic of that game?
No, at least I don't think there's any similar mechanics or rules. I was just hoping to see other players from the original boost game.
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Post Post #421 (isolation #16) » Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:02 am

Post by Jahudo »

I like the focus on Espeonage, mainly for the point that his Anon and MME reads look contradictory. And possibly that he's backing away from his pressure on Anon by saying he wasn't that serious. It looked serious to me.

Espeonage, what do you mean you didn't have a proper case on Anon? Wasn't your reasoning "[Anon's post] is scraping through without content"?

------------------------
I don't think ABR looks scummy; just that he doesn't have strong reads and he's being honest by playing open to suspicions of self-preservation and hiding reads. I'd think scum would want to be more discreet if they're using that strategy.

But I do like Anon's post 403 about Nick. Those stances do look weak, but he doesn't say how confident he is in them. So maybe he voted on the large wagon despite having an indecisive read on Richard.

@Nick: If you're keeping your vote on Richard, can you elaborate on the things you mentioned? Why is the vote on farside weird? Was his voting after being under pressure a strong or weak tell for him being town or scum?

------------------------
@Richard, respond to post 326.
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Post Post #450 (isolation #17) » Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:54 pm

Post by Jahudo »

@Richard: Can you respond to post 326?

-------------

@BV
bv310 wrote:I wasn't discounting him as scum, I just don't see any scumminess in his posts. It's funny though, that argument of "He didn't say scum, so he must be scum!" is almost never used by pro-town players.
Who says that argument is never used by pro-town players?

I don't think you've really explained why you found Papa Zito town enough not to consider it a possibility. You specifically asked someone else for "possible benefits", so did you also assume that they (or the town in general) would not need to consider a Papa Zito scum as a possibility?

Or was your question merely rhetorical? In which case, why ask it? Were you using it to start a suspicion on Esperonage?
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Post Post #491 (isolation #18) » Tue Mar 30, 2010 12:30 pm

Post by Jahudo »

@Nick: respond to post 421.

Still waiting on richard response... still waiting on esperonage response... waiting on bv response.

I'm not against a bv lynch at this time. There's a valid case that's good for a day 1 lynch, but I think its weaker overall than Richard who does not look like a VI.

I don't see Pom as scummy right now, but then again I have a hard time reading Pom.

-------------------
farside wrote:MME is flying hard under the radar and I'm surprised those calling out lurkers are not saying boo about MME.
I thought he was still in V/LA mode, though maybe that's almost over?
farside wrote:Jahudo pst 308: all those comments about lurkers and now you switch to richard after many pages later? WTF?
My Anon and DP votes were for pressure, which didn't really work. But I was investigating Richard at the same time and building a case, so its not like my vote came out of nowhere.
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Post Post #519 (isolation #19) » Wed Mar 31, 2010 1:20 am

Post by Jahudo »

Richard is still scummy until he comes back and can defend the case on him, but Nick has just risen to my number 2 suspect.
NickF227 wrote:
Jahudo wrote:
@Nick: If you're keeping your vote on Richard, can you elaborate on the things you mentioned? Why is the vote on farside weird? Was his voting after being under pressure a strong or weak tell for him being town or scum?
Well, I think its pretty clear. Saying that farside looks town in one post and then voting for her in the next post is pretty....well, do I really need to explain this? Its self-explanatory.
No, no its not. His farside vote was in the random vote stage, in post 42. His flop saying farside looked town after his reaction test was in post 309. So I'll ask again, why the vote on farside weird?

Vote: NickF227
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Post Post #534 (isolation #20) » Wed Mar 31, 2010 11:51 am

Post by Jahudo »

boberz wrote:I sense the Nick wagon feels bad. It just seems players are moving to it when thye run out of ideas. Maybe I am wrong and I am not saying those players a scummy because of it. I just dont see why it is emerging yet.
Its more because he's active right now and I want to hear his defense on something I find confusing and possibly scummy. I still think Richard's done some scummy stuff, but he's stopped defending the case against him. If/when he comes back, I'll continue to try and get him to answer my questions.
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Post Post #577 (isolation #21) » Fri Apr 02, 2010 3:17 am

Post by Jahudo »

Papa Zito wrote:Activity check
The replacements have a legitimate reason to not have 20 posts yet. I knew Nick and MME were being lurky, but the CKD post count surprised me the most. I thought he was alot more active.

@CKD: Now that we knew you just think Richard is a bad player and best left to a vig or replacement, what was the purpose of partially calling for a policy lynch at the start of the day?

When did you change your mind in how to deal with him? Do you think its possible to separate Richard's bad play from scummy play?
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Post Post #667 (isolation #22) » Fri Apr 02, 2010 4:58 pm

Post by Jahudo »

Nick: Post 519 is calling your name. Please respond.

Also Nick: Are Richard and ABR your only two suspects right now?

-----------------
@Richard: are you still defending the case against you? what are you feeling right now about your situation?

-----------------
@dybeck: why do you think Esperonage is scum? Is it the same reasons Ojanen posted? What do you think of his defense?

I think the Esperonage wagon needs more attention, though I still like my Nick spot better. My take:
Espy wrote:EBWOP: Because MME pointed out something that town really needed to hear at that point.
What exactly did he point out that the town needed to hear? I don't see anything he said, where he was the first one to say it. I also still think Anon said it before him, on the Richard part. So you're two reads looks conflicted.
Espy wrote:He was tunnelling and we were barely out of RVS.
What I had against Anon was how he said he had 3 suspects and went for the one with the most votes already on them.
That wasn't the reason you gave the first time. You said Anon was scraping through without content, as in fluff posting. Not tunneling and jumping on the opportunistic wagon.
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Post Post #748 (isolation #23) » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:02 am

Post by Jahudo »

@boberz:
boberz wrote:I want to see more from Jack because I dont understand what he has been doing.
Jack's not in this game. Who are you talking about?

@Papa Zito, Seraphim, Espeonage, farside22, curiouskarmadog
Can you show examples of what BV's "scum slip and fakeclaim" posts would look like if they got the same information across but were made by town? (The posts are where he doesn't consider the possibility of PZ as town, and where he says he's a magnet for VT roles.) I currently feel that these two posts are more about him having trouble getting his meaning across than they are slips and fakeclaims. So I believe his defense and don't see the rationale for a BV lynch.

--------------------
RICHARD NO LONGER A SUSPECT:

I no longer find Richard suspicious. My main point was I thought his gambit was fake, based on his reaction analysis. Looking at it again I can see his perspective of finding Seraphim and Faraday's reactions as different. I can see how he saw Faraday as looking to vote first and possibly not even ask questions, whereas Seraphim was voting and trying to get Richard's defense before signing off on a lynch.

His lurking doesn't look like a scum tell in his situation. I think it makes more sense that his V/LA was real.

His OMGUS on boberz is not helpful, but that also means he's not pushing BV's wagon to save himself. So he doesn't look opportunistic now.
--------------------

NEW POMEGRANATE CASE:

1) She hasn't expanded any of her suspicions since page 14, which was the last time she called someone scummy or said she'd vote for them:
Pom back on page 14 wrote:Willing to vote for: BV, Richard, or Espeonage. After that, Anon.
These are based on about one point per person. I think it would be easier for scum to give stances earlier in the game, when its okay to only have minor points build up your case. Her inactivity (a valid non-tell) is not an excuse for not developing any reads with all this new information.

2) She's been asking questions but not giving analysis after the questions have been answered. She hasn't given follow-ups or pursued any leads on recent events. The little questions and comments look like a way for her to stay pro-active without ever finding anything. Examples of this are:
* Post 426 she asks ABR why he initially said he'd be up for any lynch but his, which he changes when he specifically wants to vote BV. Her question doesn't explain her opinion on him, and she has dropped that issue since then.
* Post 566 she asks Javert if his unvoting of Richard means he no longer finds Richard scummy. Again after her question is responded to, she drop the inquiry without giving an opinion on whether or not she found Javert's actions suspicious.
* Post 567 she asks Zito why he speculated BV might be town, when he was voting for BV.

Without Point #1, I wouldn't have a problem with Point #2 because I could believe she was letting go of dead end inquiries in favor of the good ones she was still pursuing. But Point #1 is about her not having any ongoing cases. She's been sitting on small, stale tells without finding anything new.

Which becomes a good scum strategy for day 1 because we're nearing deadline and she can safely push either Richard or BV without having had to make a case for them over the course of the day.

The scums: [Nick, Espy, Pom]
I don't want to compromise on a Richard or BV lynch.
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Post Post #786 (isolation #24) » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:09 pm

Post by Jahudo »

unvote;
Vote: Pom


Who else hasn't given a Pom-stance yet? She should be back a day or so before deadline according to her latest V/LA notice. That should be plenty of time to defend the points against her.
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Post Post #802 (isolation #25) » Tue Apr 06, 2010 6:21 am

Post by Jahudo »

Sando wrote:This is getting absolutely ridiculous. Enough people are basically saying that Richard is an obvious scum-BW and trying to derail the wagon based on this, that if we follow the logic, if we lynch Richard now and find out his alignment 100%, then we basically have the game in the bag. Why do I doubt any of those are willing to actually put their money where their mouth is?
Does scum-BW mean scum-driven bandwagon?
That logic is weak if there is more than one mafia.
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Post Post #808 (isolation #26) » Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:10 am

Post by Jahudo »

How would a townie write these posts?
bv310 wrote:
Espeonage wrote:Papa Zito is vig
Holy rolefishing, Batman!

Seriously, what possible benefit is there to announcing it? If he is, then now he's been outed. If he isn't, then odds are he'll be NK'd and we lose a valuable townie.
bv310 wrote:I don't have one to show you, Faraday. I seem to be a magnet for VT roles.
@Porochaz: Amished replaced MME.
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Post Post #840 (isolation #27) » Wed Apr 07, 2010 4:55 am

Post by Jahudo »

VI = Village Idiot.

I have that feeling about BV, like he'd look scummy under a little bit of pressure no matter what his alignment is; that he write in a way that can be easily misinterpreted. I still don't see scum motivation from his play, and I believe the claim.
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Post Post #843 (isolation #28) » Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:18 am

Post by Jahudo »

Papa Zito wrote:Why do you believe the claim, Jahudo?
Well first I have a town read on him, so the question is whether I think his play makes sense as a VT and I think it does.

Takes his flip-flopping on Richard. I think town power roles would be more decisive in that situation, at least not changing a read in back-to-back posts. Since PRs aren't as expendable as VTs, I think they'd play more cautiously than BV has.

Also regarding his threat to replace out, followed by an /in at another game starting next week: I read it as genuinely being overwhelmed with mafiascum-type commitments, and not something town or scum would be more likely to do.
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Post Post #850 (isolation #29) » Wed Apr 07, 2010 10:52 am

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Are you guys asking me these questions because you have doubts about BV being scum? I'd like to know who is still considering a different lynch. There's still time to try a different lynch and fall back on BV if its not possible if 4-5 people can be online a few hours before deadline hits in 24 hours.
farside22 wrote:Wait, wait, wait. he threated to replace out and in'ed to another game and you find this a null tell? How is this a person that is overwhelmed?
Its a null tell for me based on his lack of appeal to emotion throughout the game. That makes me think he's not the kind of player to replace out for being under pressure, so his busyness sounds genuine.

He initially thought we weren't close to deadline, which matches the excuse that he only needs a week at most away from distractions. A new game starting up is low-priority the first week, so I see nothing wrong with him replacing in when he doesn't have time to play.
farside22 wrote:I see scum flip flop on views of players based on wagon more then town. Sorry I'm not biting this at all.
That's a reasonable tell to stand by most of the time, but in this situation I don't think it fits. He changed his mind in back-to-back posts. Scum would be more conscious of how they're going to change positions, if they do. I think they'd usually want to keep their options open, so his Richard town read doesn't feel like it comes from scum anyway.
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Post Post #868 (isolation #30) » Wed Apr 07, 2010 2:19 pm

Post by Jahudo »

Papa Zito wrote:
Jahudo wrote:Are you guys asking me these questions because you have doubts about BV being scum?
I'm asking these questions because I have doubts about Jahudo being town. Deflecting certainly doesn't help.
What am I deflecting? Your questions? Because they looked identical to the ones farside asked.
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Post Post #886 (isolation #31) » Sat Apr 10, 2010 11:59 am

Post by Jahudo »

Good posting already day 2

Vote: Pom
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Post Post #893 (isolation #32) » Sat Apr 10, 2010 1:12 pm

Post by Jahudo »

I liked my town read on BV yesterday. I was wrong.

-------------------------

Today I still find Nick scummy, and his vote change does not look well-reasoned. Here's the timeline:

- Post 801 is the closest vote count. It shows Richard still had more votes than BV.
- No votes leave Richard-wagon until Nick unvotes his main suspect (Richard) to vote BV.
- Post 810 and Post 813: Two players, Seraphim and farside, tell everyone to vote BV (or in far's case, BV or Pom).
- Post 814: Richard (Nick's suspect) votes BV.
- Post 816: Nick votes BV. There's no reasoning besides complaining that people don't like the Richard wagon, even though it still has more votes at that time).
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Post Post #927 (isolation #33) » Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:29 am

Post by Jahudo »

RichardGHP wrote:The hammer itself was pretty bad, considering you didn't give much reasoning and left yourself in a position were you didn't look like you were open to discussion.

So, yes.
This post would look genuine if it didn't come from you.
Richard, wouldn't you agree that you gave no reasoning to lynching BV besides self-preservation? Since you didn't acknowledge any of the BV case points, you put yourself in a position where you weren't open to discussion.

Take a look at Pomegranate and Richard's paths to voting BV:

POMEGRANATE
Post 346 - She agrees with the slip tell that BV assumed Papa Zito was town. She acknowledges how many times BV flip-flopped on his Richard-read. She says BV is one of her top 3 suspects.
Post 618 - She comments on BV's claim that he gets VT roles alot.
Post 847 - She considers hammering BV. No reason in the post.
Post 870 - She hammers BV.

RICHARD
Post 377 - Votes BV because no one is joining his Faraday wagon.
Post 433 - Says he's voting BV for self-preservation.
Post 814 - Votes BV. No reason in the post.
Post 828 - Tells BV to claim. No suspicion in the post.
Post 832 - Revotes BV because he isn't a power role.
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Post Post #977 (isolation #34) » Mon Apr 12, 2010 2:23 am

Post by Jahudo »

Yeah, she should be at L-1.

Pom,

What happens to you if noone tries to kill you, but you hide behind scum? In weak mode? In strong mode?

What happens to you if you hide behind town and if someone tries to kill you? In weak mode? In strong mode?

What happens to you if you hide behind town and if someone tries to kill your town target? In weak mode? In strong mode?
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Post Post #987 (isolation #35) » Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:55 am

Post by Jahudo »

unvote


I want to hear her serious post, and I also think we should keep her alive at least another day. The confirms she gives us are valuable if she can later be killed, cleared as town or caught as scum. And there's likely a few ways to test her role.
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Post Post #991 (isolation #36) » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:31 pm

Post by Jahudo »

Well if you don't think its worth the risk, then the plan its for you.

The test hinges on their being a tracker/watcher role existing that finds out she really targets who she says she does. That still leaves open the possibility of scum RB, so we'd need to know if she targets a power role that is still able to perform their night action.

The other benefit is waiting a few days and having Pom lynched or killed then. If she's town, she's have more results than just farside. It seems like a role scum might want to get rid of themselves, more than leave open to WIFOM.
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Post Post #1009 (isolation #37) » Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:47 pm

Post by Jahudo »

I thought using strong mode too much could potentially hurt the player, but not everybody. I guess either is possible. Plus, what's the downside of her only using weak mode?
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Post Post #1041 (isolation #38) » Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:01 am

Post by Jahudo »

Returning to my Nick case. See Post 519, Post 893.
Vote: NickF227
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Post Post #1045 (isolation #39) » Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:55 pm

Post by Jahudo »

NickF227 wrote:
Jahudo wrote:Returning to my Nick case. See Post 519, Post 893.
Vote: NickF227
...Um, post 893 is uh...nothing but you voting for Pom after Day 2 started?

Whatever, I just got basck from my trip, I'll read through the thread.
No, that's wrong.
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Post Post #1061 (isolation #40) » Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:37 am

Post by Jahudo »

curiouskarmadog wrote:3.) Review what happened between previous quoted votes counts.
My Nick case is partially in those vote counts you quoted. I think he was using Richard's vote switch to BV as rationale for saying that momentum was swinging away from the Richard wagon, which was his reasoning for switching wagons himself.

-------------

@CKD: did you respond to Sando's Post 432 somewhere? That's where he explains why he thinks over-reaction is scummy.

@Sando: are there instances when over-reaction is not scummy?

This speculation is sound in theory, but I'm not sure it only points to Sando.
curiouskarmadog wrote:Well, anyone could have thought PZ was the vig. I don’t think that he was offed because he was the vig. As scum, if I can pin point a vig I would keep him around, especially if he is barking up the wrong tree in the game. A vig with a bad scumdar, is an asset to scum. The fact that he was offed, makes me think he was working the right tree. At the end, he was really pointing a finger at Pom..though I don’t think I would rule out Sando.
Zito was going after lurkers early, and his threat to vig Sando felt like it was because Sando was a lurker. Or as PZ called him, "follower. classic blend into the crowd stuff".

When he first said he'd want to vig Sando, Sando had only made 3 posts. And Zito agreed with his reads at that point (Anon, Richard). After a while he stopped saying he'd vig Sando, so I don't think scum-Sando would be more worried than other lurkers or people Zito suspected near the end of the day (Pom, Richard).

So I can see where Sando was still on Zito's hit list, but Sando doesn't look like a clear-cut favorite for night 1. And that goes back into thinking that scum want a vig hitting townies for as long as they think a vig will hit townies.

...which points back to Pom. Writing this post has made me want to lynch pom again. what to do, what to do...
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Post Post #1090 (isolation #41) » Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:12 am

Post by Jahudo »

NickF227 wrote:I really have nothing to say, that's...there. Its not really scummy though, IMO. Of course, I am me and I know I'm a villager, so...yeah.
I'm still trying to understand why you found Richard's vote on farside weird, coupled with his town read on her after he got his gambit-reactions.
NickF227 wrote:But, I did give bv's vote the lead and all, and he did turn out to be mafia...soo..... Yeah.....If I was mafia, wouldn't I have waited until people actually jumped off the Richard bandwagon and bv was close to being lynched?
Sure, but I don't know why you joined the wagon in the first place. You preferred the Richard wagon and you would have kept it the largest if you stayed on it at that point.
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Post Post #1108 (isolation #42) » Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:13 pm

Post by Jahudo »

No, I don't believe the claim. Hiding behind farside makes no sense, since she was a top townie from her BV wagon involvement. It would have been safer to not use the power at all if you don't have town reads not most likely to be NK'ed for catching scum.

The other evidence points to her as scum also, but I still say the test sounded fun. I feel like I'd know how Pom-scum would go about "confirming townies" by hiding behind them.

unvote;
Vote: Pomegranite
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Post Post #1157 (isolation #43) » Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:37 pm

Post by Jahudo »

@Nick: do you think pom is scum? do you think the claim is fake?
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Post Post #1184 (isolation #44) » Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:25 am

Post by Jahudo »

Albert B. Rampage wrote:Espeonage and Pom are both scum. We kill one and we kill the other. Thanks for playing.
Espy was one of her top three from yesterday. While I can see how it looks like it could be scum trying to distance, I don't think she can be scum with BV and Espy. And if she's scum, Richard is def. town.
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Post Post #1271 (isolation #45) » Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:38 am

Post by Jahudo »

ABR was a distraction yesterday, I don't think people trying to keep Pom alive had a scum motivation to do so. That said, I think he's right about Sando.

SANDO CASE:

1) Sando's original reason for suspecting BV is full of holes.
I think scum are often the first to accuse of role-fishing, because it's such an easy accusation to make and town are so firmly against it that the mud invariably sticks.
That doesn't explain how town wouldn't point out a good tell if they were there first to notice it. Sando also doesn't suspect Espy for being the rolefisher, so Sando must not believe his own tell.


2) Sando suspects dybeck in a way that makes sense if BV is scum, yet Sando doesn't apply more pressure to BV.
Dybecks claim that the BV case is wishy-washy etc is classic attempt at derailing.
By the time he votes for dybeck, he still hasn't pressured BV with any questioning or votes. It looks like he's more sure of dybeck, which doesn't make much sense if BV is town. So I think this was an attempt at safe distancing from BV while re-directing focus somewhere else.


3) Sand goes from Richard and BV being equal suspicions, to Richard being his top suspicion. There's no specific reasoning of why BV went down or Richard went up.
Would lynch: Richard/BV/Sera/Anon/Dybeck, no particular order.
Richard - Probably top of the list, he's not only by far the scummiest person around, he's totally anti-town seperate to that, and lynching him will give us huge amounts of information.
BV/Sera - Pretty similar level, but for different reasons. I've stated previously why I'd lynch these guys.
His BV vote near deadline could have been bussing, since its hard to see how he suspected BV on the level that he claims
I've consistently rated BV as my 2nd or 3rd suspect that I'd be willing to lynch.
I could see him finding BV 5th most suspicious based on his day 1 posts, but not any higher.

Vote: Sando
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Post Post #1277 (isolation #46) » Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:20 am

Post by Jahudo »

ABR put BV to L-3 at one point, though his read on Pom made him switch votes about 12 days before the end of the day. At that point BV and Richard were still tied, and ABR wasn't trying to help the Richard wagon by either thinking Richard was really scummy, or the BV wagon was bad. So either he is scum giving up distancing earlier than makes sense, or he really thought Pom was scum. Given day 2, I believe he just thought Pom was scum, and he's not scum with BV.
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Post Post #1280 (isolation #47) » Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:49 am

Post by Jahudo »

I think I'm starting to get a better handle on the game.
Though maybe I should vote my town reads just in case my scumdar is on backwards.
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Post Post #1289 (isolation #48) » Mon Apr 26, 2010 5:58 am

Post by Jahudo »

NickF227 wrote:Nope, I didn't vote for her cuz I didn't think she was that scummy.
Even though you thought she was lying about her role?
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Post Post #1296 (isolation #49) » Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:56 am

Post by Jahudo »

I don't agree with the Ojanen case, and thought her opinion of the people pushing the BV wagon (Espy in particular) made sense in shaping her opinion on BV as a secondary suspect. Overall I'd say she isn't scum who killed Anon or poro.
farside22 wrote:OJ does not come off town in this game and I would point to my meta on her as another reason to add to my list.
What's in the meta?
farside22 wrote:She really strikes me as the type not to buss her scum buddy day 1 (seriously don't ask why I don't know) and as I said she saw bv scummy all day but never voted on him.
I disagree with this. She was the first one on her buddy's wagon day 1 here: newbie 764 and was early on a buddy's day 1 wagon (as a Ojanen/Sando hydra) here: DHSDSM beta link
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Post Post #1334 (isolation #50) » Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:20 am

Post by Jahudo »

There are a couple of things I don't undestand about Espy's vote here.
Espeonage wrote:I like case Seraphim made
Vote: Nick


Non-conventional yet still clearly shows how Nick's actions are scummy. I see the case and agree with it.
Why is this the first time you've made an opinion on Nick?
What about the case is non-conventional to you?
Do you agree with all of it?

About the Nick case points:

I feel like the suspicions towards ABR are justified given Rampage's playstyle, but I don't think it means he's more likely to be scum if he sings songs about how confident he is in someone's scumminess, etc.

Nick's bizarre attack on farside is something I've tried to unravel since early day 1. I can't get on the same page with him. I don't know why, but it keeps going to a dead-end. So I've just gotten over it.

The instance of unhelpful play justifies some attention and pressure, but I don't think its scummy unless Nick had a lapse of judgment and didn't see how an obviously anti-town ignoring would look obviously anti-town. I think scum are more aware of avoiding those kinds of things in more scripted responses.

The first WIFOM defense looked normal given the context, which was the timing of his switch. I still don't understand why he made the switch when he did, but it doesn't really make logical sense as scum so I gotta back off that point. The second WIFOM is unreliable at this time because he thought she was lying town. Even though he didn't really explain that point, he never indicated she was scum.

The strange roleclaim looks like an alignment claim, but still unnecessary.

His opinion about Pom's claim being a lie did ping something from me. I still don't understand how he could balance thinking Pom was a cop with the situation she was in and not claiming cop. That is still an unknown on him. But setting up ABR's lynch looks like another example of reacting to ABR's personality, so null tell for that.

Overall, and I can't believe I'm saying this, Nick looks town.
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Post Post #1349 (isolation #51) » Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:22 am

Post by Jahudo »

Farside, how did Sando stick his neck out day 1?

I know he was calling out the people "derailing" the Richard wagon, but I saw that as trying to shift momentum away from the BV wagon. And he still managed to vote BV before deadline. If his suspicions for both were similar, like he claimed, I don't see how he would dedicate his BV vote post to arguing for a Richard lynch.
farside22 wrote:Esp is just voting along. I didn't like his vote on bv at the time and he's just following a long. I call this the flying under the radar scum tactic.
So do you think he's in a different scum faction than BV? Because I think his vote was early enough and with no signs of leaving to make bussing seem ridiculous. And he had a chance to switch to Richard but didn't.
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Post Post #1394 (isolation #52) » Sun May 02, 2010 9:41 am

Post by Jahudo »

A Sando claim would be nice...


@boberz:
boberz wrote:IN my case because I have lost myself in this game because i am so busy atm. Will get free on friday afternoon and then will be able to committ more time to the game. It doesnt help that recently whenever i do have half an hour or so I am unable to log on which makes me frustrated
I don't think you've given an opinion on Sando yet. If that's correct, then you really should do it now. Do you like the points dybeck was pressing on Sando, or were you saying that he looked like a proactive town for going after someone regardless of how you felt about Sando?

It seems odd you're not voting for someone yet, given how recent some of your suspicions on people have been. Who looks scummier to you: Faraday or Richard? Is it possible that Espeonage is still scum, now that Pom has flipped town?
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Post Post #1411 (isolation #53) » Sun May 02, 2010 2:46 pm

Post by Jahudo »

Sando wrote:My weak mode is tracker in all but name. My strong mode is cop.
In weak mode, do you learn who someone targets or just that they used a night action?
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Post Post #1413 (isolation #54) » Sun May 02, 2010 2:50 pm

Post by Jahudo »

Target / not target? Or a name?
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Post Post #1458 (isolation #55) » Wed May 05, 2010 12:35 pm

Post by Jahudo »

@Espeonage: Do you look at that "2nd to last person on a town lynch" theory alot? Or did you only remember that theory after post 1376?

I'd think it would happen in alot of other games, so if you liked the tell you might use it alot. And I'm wondering why you didn't consider it at the start of day 3.


Also ABR did what I wish I had the guts to do sometimes when I have a strong feeling about somebody. I don't think its suspicious as much as it is awesome. I'm not going to consider voting him for a couple of game days at least.
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Post Post #1465 (isolation #56) » Thu May 06, 2010 2:04 am

Post by Jahudo »

Espy might be a good lynch today, but I'm also thinking about voting boberz. I don't agree with the Ojanen or Nick suspicion, and I'll try to re-read Faraday and dybeck soon.
curiouskarmadog wrote:
Jahudo wrote:

Also ABR did what I wish I had the guts to do sometimes when I have a strong feeling about somebody. I don't think its suspicious as much as it is awesome. I'm not going to consider voting him for a couple of game days at least.
there is nothing about this quote I like. if you think it is so awesome, why would you vote him in a couple days?
I mean, it could be a gutsy scum gambit but I'm leaning towards gutsy town gambit. I've been feeling like he's playing to his personality this whole game, and that's why people have suspected him. And by a couple of days, I mean game days if we get down to only a couple of people...probably 1 scum left and there's no good suspects left. Something like that.
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Post Post #1486 (isolation #57) » Thu May 06, 2010 12:50 pm

Post by Jahudo »

I didn't find anything I liked about Richard or dybeck's cases against Faraday. Even though Richard is now known as town, I don't think Faraday's vote on him looked opportunistic---more pressuring to try and get Richard to take the game more seriously.

@Amished: where is your case on dybeck. I can't find it, besides this post: post 1151.

Espy wagon looks like the happening place to be today.

Vote: Espeonage
- reasons 667, 1334.
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Post Post #1505 (isolation #58) » Sat May 08, 2010 12:18 am

Post by Jahudo »

@OJ: What about Espeonage? You had him as a suspect day 1 right? But not today?
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Post Post #1522 (isolation #59) » Mon May 10, 2010 10:28 am

Post by Jahudo »

Javert wrote:I was worried at first that Sando might have been trying to get a true counterwagon on NickF227 yesterday, but it occurred to me that if Sando
really
wanted to try for a counterwagon, he would have just claimed a guilty investigation on NickF227 when he fake-claimed Cop.
Is this assuming Nick is town? There were still alot of "not voting" people at that time, so I think he could have seen Sera's case on Nick as something people could jump on. So since he wasn't the one creating the alternative, I could see it being on a scum or town. It seemed to be his best option for self-preservation.
Javert wrote:In fact, Sando's vote of NickF227 yesterday was the first time Sando ever even mentioned NickF227 the entire game. I can easily see that vote as a distancing vote.
That's an interesting point. Sando did have the opportunity to find Nick suspicious day 1, and had about 5 suspects that day so what's one more?

Its not enough to override my current read of town on him.
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Post Post #1549 (isolation #60) » Tue May 11, 2010 3:45 am

Post by Jahudo »

Espy's at L-1.
Espeonage wrote:It just so happened that I started this game while still a noob
I don't think that's true. You've been here 3 months before his game started. You have 600 posts.


@Sera: what have you found on Espy to think he's town? Did he say something in 1538 to give you doubt?
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Post Post #1587 (isolation #61) » Wed May 12, 2010 1:41 am

Post by Jahudo »

I can't see Seraphim being scum with BV, or Sera killing Richard last night. Day 1 he seemed to want to be off Richard and on BV before they really became competing wagons.
Seraphim post 288 wrote:I'm not voting bv because I want answers from Richard first and unvoting him now will drop the pressure on him. I'm talking about in sort of a glorified FoS manner.
He was suspicious of both but gave Richard the benefit of the doubt and I don't see scum doing that more to a perceived VI than a scummy buddy.
Ojanen wrote:Espeonage (6) --
Faraday, NickF227, Jahudo
,
farside22
, Seraphim,
Amished
I think Nick was a deciding factor in the momentum shift away from Richard. From someone who likes early bussing, he's either got me fooled or he wasn't bussing. Amished and I were early on the Sando wagon. I don't think Amished's unvote at the Sando claim counts against him. It seemed like an appropriate time to wait for a counter-claim.

The thing with Espy on the BV wagon was that he had no original reasoning and lurked through parts of day 1. He didn't mention Richard while the two wagons were starting to compete with each other, but I don't think he was around that much to have that opportunity. So we don't really know if he would have kept his vote at every interval, until it would've looked like a good time for scum to bus anyway.
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Post Post #1620 (isolation #62) » Fri May 14, 2010 3:55 am

Post by Jahudo »

I think Sando was actually trying to get dybeck lynched on day 1, or at least tie him to BV with statements like these:
Sando post 432 wrote:Dybecks claim that the BV case is wishy-washy etc is classic attempt at derailing.
Sando post 512 wrote:Dybeck seems to be consistently trying to undermine the wagons without actually providing an opinion on the wagonned people. I'm not sure exactly why, but one thing I can't fathom is why town would do this.
And when Sando downgraded his suspicion:
Sando post 790 wrote:Dybeck - In case this wasn't obvious, Dybeck was basically me just calling him out on some fairly bad arguments. I still think they were bad, but he's been a lot better since.
I think that was more about him not finding support for a dybeck wagon. Dybeck really didn't change in that timeframe, from what I could see. Dybeck made a case for boberz that Sando disagreed with in his only mention of boberz here:
Sando post 788 wrote:Boberz looks pro-town to me, the case seems pretty weak. Interesting that people will jump on people like Boberz and BV for floundering and not scumhunting, yet completely clear Richard of it.
dybeck and Richard, two of Sando's suspects, had made the case so I think it was more about getting them lynched than saving boberz.

I don't see dybeck as being a scumbuddy to Sando. I'll look over the dybeck cases next, but Espy is still a good lynch.
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Post Post #1637 (isolation #63) » Sun May 16, 2010 11:57 am

Post by Jahudo »

Soooo, do you like any of the current wagons CKD?
What parts of the Espy wagon is bad to you?
Maybe there's a point or two you missed.
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Post Post #1640 (isolation #64) » Sun May 16, 2010 12:16 pm

Post by Jahudo »

Espy backtracked on why he voted Anon during day 1. Here's the vote, then the reasoning, and later in the day he switched the reasoning to this.

He also made MME look good here for MME's post here, even though half of that post (about Richard being an easy target for scum) had previously been the opinion of Anon here. The scummy thing about this is Espy generalized both posts, saying Anon's was terrible and MME's was full of win. But half of MME's was in Anons.
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Post Post #1642 (isolation #65) » Sun May 16, 2010 12:55 pm

Post by Jahudo »

His BV vote doesn't mean much to me. It was a hop with no specific reasons, and he lurked on it most of the day without adding anything.

If Espy subscribes to the theory that an L-2 vote is scummy, then why did it take him ~8 days and Sando being put to L-1 for him to bring it up? It looks fake.

So I don't think he was scumhunting the scum we've already caught, and hasn't done much besides hop on other wagons so far. Plus Seraphim is a bad lynch, which I've already brought up. Maybe I could switch for a boberz-lynch, but nobody else right now.
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Post Post #1660 (isolation #66) » Mon May 17, 2010 12:54 pm

Post by Jahudo »

boberz wrote:I still dont like people, without reasoning, saying they would be happy with my lynch or I look slightly scummy or other things like this. It gives me no oppourtunity to improve, it gives me no chance to answer the points, but it doesmean every one else feels they can also legitimately get away with accusing me of nothing.
I was concerned yesterday when you hadn't (by that time) given a read on Sando or placed a vote.

And you already gave your defense, that you were V/LA and didn't see any case. That could explain things, but I think not having a Sando read makes you a possible Sando-buddy regardless of the circumstances.

@boberz: did you vote BV on day 1 to make sure we didn't get a no lynch? Was there no other reason? Why did you switch back to Richard when there wasn't that much time in the day?
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Post Post #1675 (isolation #67) » Tue May 18, 2010 1:13 am

Post by Jahudo »

curiouskarmadog wrote:@Jahudo, I think Espy is telling the truth about his claim. Your thoughts about that?
I'd like to see if Espy has anything to say about his playstyle here compared to that game Sera linked.

At a quick glance I don't think the linked game is comparable to this one, and I don't think everyone plays more open just because they are VT. But the claim doesn't make me think he's more likely to be town, and I still don't see how Espy's play here is normal for him.

---------------------------
boberz wrote:I voted bv because I was worried about deadline and my potentially being away from the cpu.
That checks out.
boberz wrote:I was then convinced by bv's lack of understanding about a roleclaim which turned out to be false but unvoted.
And your unvoted followed his claim, so that checks out. But there was only 2 days until deadline and with your vote the Richard wagon had 5 votes. They needed 6 votes in 2 days. (not impossible, but starting to be a stretch)
boberz wrote:I then knew I could be online and hoped that a last minute counterwagon would com back to Richard who had a lways been my favoured lynch.
And you were online the morning he was lynched, so that wasn't a lie.
boberz wrote:My voting him was an attempt to tempt any other deserters into voting Richard.
But the only evidence you had was that his claim sounded genuine. It was just your gut reaction, and everyone was going to have their own reactions and probably not be persuaded otherwise.

It didn't look like you were trying to stop the wagon, but be okay if other people saw it the same way on their own. So why push the other wagon so weakly if you thought BV was town?
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Post Post #1710 (isolation #68) » Wed May 19, 2010 9:28 am

Post by Jahudo »

My combination of gut, reading and voodoo magic says Seraphim is town. He's like, my 3rd or 4th least likely scum candidate left.
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Post Post #1750 (isolation #69) » Thu May 20, 2010 8:11 am

Post by Jahudo »

farside22 wrote:
NickF227 wrote:So you guys think Espy is scum but since you have suuuch stone cold proof we have to switch our votes now?

Metagaming is gay, anyway.
Please ask to replace if your going to continue to be useless.
Your also calling espy scum when your on game play is less then stellar so pot this is kettle. Get the fuck off me.
No no, this is good. Whenever Nick gets sarcastic we find scum:
Nick wrote:Oh, and since it is SO SCUMMY to be voting for Richard...

Unvote, Vote: bv
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Post Post #1771 (isolation #70) » Sat May 22, 2010 8:13 am

Post by Jahudo »

boberz wrote:You asked me to provide a link of me overreacting etc as town. I did so in the very next post.
Where was this? Day 1? I can't find it.
farside22 wrote:bobz; have you ever over-reacted as scum?
boberz, do you have an example?

The overreaction doesn't mean much to me now, but I want to make sure it still doesn't when I read the game you provided.
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Post Post #1777 (isolation #71) » Sun May 23, 2010 4:12 am

Post by Jahudo »

Passing the time. I can't think of anything else to ask Espy, and the other wagoned people look town to me.
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Post Post #1780 (isolation #72) » Sun May 23, 2010 5:07 am

Post by Jahudo »

dybeck wrote:
Jahudo wrote:Passing the time. I can't think of anything else to ask Espy, and the other wagoned people look town to me.
What is it about Faraday that's convinced you of his town credentials?
For starters, I don't think his plan to deal with Pom was scummy. She looked like a good lynch to me.

I have no problem with him seeing BV as town and wanting to lynch Richard. I was the same way, and think his thought process was just like mine. Would I be a pretty good wagon? Why have I slipped by?

And I don't see his lurking as scummy, but just limited access that also affects other ongoing games apparently.

So I guess the reasoning is down to him not offering anything, and not finding scum yet. Maybe he's trying to lie low, but I've been reading it as non-alignment factors like lack of time and commitment.
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Post Post #1809 (isolation #73) » Mon May 24, 2010 12:19 pm

Post by Jahudo »

Are we really talking about this?
Patrick wrote:All roles are out, please confirm by PM. Any roles that can night talk can do so in the pregame stage.
Everybody was told to confirm, not just VTs.
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Post Post #1832 (isolation #74) » Tue May 25, 2010 5:25 am

Post by Jahudo »

I'd prefer a Espeonage, boberz and Faraday lynch all before Seraphim, and in that order. But deadline and all. We could do worse today.
farside22 wrote:See here is the issue I have. Why would Sera ask if there was something more to the VT then what is on the sample PM. Then say I don't believe Espy and vote him. That just doesn't make sense as town.
I really want to vote Faraday again after his last comment on this page.
Technically CKD asked if there was something more to the role PM, and when Espy said yes it was Seraphim who asked what. And also technically Sera's vote was already on Espy, then after a few days of not commenting Espy's role PM answer, he switches wagons. And he only said he didn't believe the claim because he thought Espy was playing like a PR.

Is your issue still with that stuff?
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Post Post #1881 (isolation #75) » Sun May 30, 2010 12:47 am

Post by Jahudo »

I'm willing to discuss Faraday's game and maybe pressure him to find out where he stands now, but I still don't see him as the best lynch.

Do we expect more usefulness from Faraday than some other players, making his participation here look disingenuous? Are we sure he's slacking off on only this game, or has only done so as scum? That previous game link farside showed a while back didn't teach me anything, but maybe I didn't know where to look.
Espeonage wrote:
Vote: Nick
Why did you continue to like Seraphim's case on Nick even when you were voting Seraphim? All I can see is opportunism.

Vote: Espeonage
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Post Post #1889 (isolation #76) » Mon May 31, 2010 8:19 am

Post by Jahudo »

unvote

Alright lets just talk Faraday. I don't want this to be a lingering issue past today anyway.
Faraday 549 wrote:Espeonage is reading a little differnently than me in his newb game where I picked him out as town despite the fact he was quite scummy. I want to read him in iso.
Did you ever do that ISO? If so what did you learn about him that's similar or different to that game you mentioned?

You don't refer to his day 1 play any of the times you have voted for him. It seems your suspicion is mainly "in the moment". Is that accurate?


@Javert: You've only acknowledged Faraday once this entire game. Why? Where do you stand on him?
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Post Post #1898 (isolation #77) » Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:39 am

Post by Jahudo »

No access until Friday for me.
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Post Post #1912 (isolation #78) » Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:59 pm

Post by Jahudo »

I'm back and will re-read everything I missed... ok I'm caught up. :D
farside22 wrote:I'm going to look over a few things but people voting espy are making me more suspicious then anyone else.
Why? Is it because he's an easy target? What made you go from finding him scummy (with your FOS and vote on him) to thinking he was VI? Maybe others (like myself) just haven't had that epiphany yet?

Its possible Faraday is scum but I haven't been able to see it with the cases made, and I've said why to each point I think. So what am I missing that makes this wagon so great? (its not the lurking part, or the playing under our expectations of him part, or his opinion on Pom part, or not being on a scum wagon part. those are weak or null tells for me.)

I also cannot see dybeck or Nick being scum.
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Post Post #1916 (isolation #79) » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:03 am

Post by Jahudo »

I just assume that mods standardize parts of role PMs that can be standardized. Speaking generally, a mod could have information like:

"Here is the game thread: link"
"Confirm by PM"
"Good luck"

That will be separate from role/alignment specific information, and in the same place for everybody because its something everybody will get. I can't imagine scum's role PM having something different like "You are a mafia goon. confirm by PM. you are trying to take over the town. you win when blah blah blah..."
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Post Post #1921 (isolation #80) » Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:44 am

Post by Jahudo »

ABR what are these suspicions based on?

I think CKD is town. He was 6th on the BV wagon and even called the Richard wagon bad when it was still larger. And day 2 he was pushing the Sando wagon as better than the Pom wagon. I don't know how that could be seen as distancing more so than a normally developed case? So I'd say he's definitely not the scum we're looking for that might have killed OJ or Amish last night.

Javert was on Sando's case pretty hard, and Sando was on dybeck pretty hard and they both look genuine as far as I can tell.

@ABR: Is there a specific post that looks like distancing?

------------------------

@Farside, do you still feel this meta is a reliable tell?
farside22 wrote:Yay!!! I declare Faraday is scum. I give to you exibit A faraday scum
Please count the number of things you see in that game that is in this game as well and you may just switch you vote with me.
The similarities seem to be V/LA excuses, mostly with college exams or logging on issues. And I haven't seen where any of this has been proven to be a lie?

In any case some recent reading has come up with a equation that results in a scummy Faraday. What I still see at the heart of the Faraday suspicion is that he didn't place a vote on either scum. That could be a lynchable offense for me if his votes had poor reasons and he didn't have reasons for disliking the scum wagons.

On the scummy side he didn't say why Sando wasn't a good wagon. He ignored him.

On the 'eh-maybe-its-legit- side Faraday gave a meta reason for finding BV town, or actually VI which would actually be easier for scum to do than say a buddy is town and not a VI.

On the "thats-a-reach" side his Espy vote was based on 1 Espy quote but Faraday was full of confidence after mostly ignoring Espy all game. And he comes back to the wagon the next day with nothing new, and not much since then.

So bad reasons for voting + weak/no reasons for not voting scum = scummy Faraday.

unvote;
Vote: Faraday
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Post Post #1936 (isolation #81) » Sat Jun 05, 2010 10:49 am

Post by Jahudo »

I'm suddenly asking myself why we're not voting/lynching ABR. If its only about Sando, then I don't think that's good enough anymore. That fake claim mess could have been a bus.
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Post Post #1939 (isolation #82) » Sat Jun 05, 2010 11:37 am

Post by Jahudo »

True, Faraday is today's priority.

Also Shanba is only L-2 and I know informative he can be as a replacement already under suspicion. So I also want to hear him out.

@Nick: What was your read on Faraday?

@Espy: What was your read on Faraday?

@boberz: How far down your list is Faraday? I can find some info but don't know if you'd settle for a Faraday lynch, or like another besides dybeck.
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Post Post #1949 (isolation #83) » Sun Jun 06, 2010 2:35 pm

Post by Jahudo »

I guess this is a fresh perspective, albeit on old posts. I haven't really been asked much on my day 1 thought process, but if you have any questions on a specific post I'll try to explain it.

My issue with Richard was this "gambit" he used to explain his attitude in the early part of the game. Its hard to take someone's word on that sort of strategy when it could just as easily be used to try and decrease or re-focus the attention they are getting.

And it was hard for him to explain what he got out of the "gambit", which didn't help his case. When he finally gave some information, it didn't hold up chronologically and it still doesn't. So I still believe my vote was valid--just wrong.
Shanba wrote:I am a karma booster. Weak boost and strong boost are fairly self explanatory - using each one boosts the karma for that particular role, the weak one weakly, and the strong one strongly.
This doesn't do anything for me. It could be scum or town. I had a role that sounds alot like this in Patrick's Boost Mafia, and I was mafia there. Basically people gained powers by getting "boosted" in a variety of means, and one of the means was me giving them away. So I could claim "hey, I gave you powers so I must be good". Except I didn't live very long there :/
Shanba wrote:In short, Jahudo makes some noise about bv, then goes off and votes anyone else he can find, including the two most viable counterwagons to bv in Richard and Pom; in fact, this looks worse than I originally thought, as he has to test the waters first with a Pom case before laying down a Pom vote the next day. It looks very much like he originally was going to ride the Rickywagon out, saw it was't working and decided to try another case, got some votes on it and decided it was worth pursuing as a counterwagon. In the end it didn't work because it split the votes, but it still looks scummy as fuck to me.
Half of my day 1 suspects are still alive. So yes I was wrong about Richard, BV and Pom but maybe I was right about Nick or Espy.

Lets not forget that Faraday was all for the Richard wagon and not the BV wagon. I understood his position for a long time because it felt like mine--we were just wrong. So Shanba, why were my reads scummier than Faraday's?
Shanba wrote:Javert, ABR and farside are my shining lights of pro-towniness in a fairly gloomy world
So you aren't concerned that Javert was never on the BV wagon either? That he went from Richard to Porochaz to Seraphim and even liked the Pom wagon but was never able to commit? These aren't my scumtells, but they are apparently yours. And you don't seem to really explain why Javert is good, so maybe the difference here can better explain why my posts have stuck out.

On a similar note, what did you think of the Seraphim wagon?
Shanba wrote:Nick is kinda scummy, kinda under the radar. He's knicking on the door of my top two. I want him dead at some point.
Ah, so you agree that my day 1 antics were at least partially called for?
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Post Post #1953 (isolation #84) » Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:35 am

Post by Jahudo »

@Shanba: Do you think you are grounded by the same "karma" rules that other power roles are? Like is your strong power the strong boost? And if you use it, you might be in danger of being "too greedy"?

-----------------------------
Espeonage wrote:
Unvote, Vote: Jahudo
Hey, you finally acknowledge my presence!

(If you have the time, ISO Espy and search for "Jahudo". You'd think for how much I talk about him he would have said a little about me before today that wasn't an indirect answer to a question I might have asked. Nope, this is the first time.)

So what should I take from this vote and no other words? Did Shanba already make the player slot look less scummy? Did you just like his case in the same way you have hopped on other people's cases in the past? That is your MO, so I can't say I'd be surprised.

Did you either not see my day 1 adventures, or had you interpreted them another way until now?
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Post Post #1959 (isolation #85) » Mon Jun 07, 2010 6:40 am

Post by Jahudo »

Javert, where would you rank Shanba, Espy and I on your scum list right now? Are you still arguing that Nick should be today's lynch? Or has the focus shifted to where you are deciding among the other wagons?
Javert wrote:Jahudo, what conclusions do you draw when a player does not really directly mention or comment on another player much in their posts?
In Espy's case I can imagine he didn't see anything suspicious from me, so nothing was worth mentioning. I can understand a player not talking about someone they find town when they're concerned with finding scum.
Javert wrote:I find these interactions can be telling once a player flips scum, but you have been pointing out this type of interaction between living, unconfirmed players. Why? You seem to be suggesting that not commenting on every player in the game is scummy for some reason, and I cannot say that I am fan of it.
How do you get that conclusion? My post was specifically about his vote not having any reasoning attached to it because he hadn't mentioned anything on me before. Even if the answer is the obvious (Shanba's case), I still wanted to know why Espy didn't see any of those points earlier.

Right now I'm not buying Espy's reason of not seeing them (anyone following this game should know who was on Richard-town and not BV-scum.) Although I can believe he didn't care. He has shown to piggyback other people and not make cases for himself. That's just how he plays and it would be a good scum strategy if he can get away with it (which he is, even if he's town).
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Post Post #1969 (isolation #86) » Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:28 am

Post by Jahudo »

Shanba wrote:It's your reasons for giving bv a free pass.Of your suspects: Nick, Espy and richard can all legitimately have the VI label thrust upon them; indeed, in another game (ongoing) I've actually seen Richard called a VI. So why did bv get a free pass but the other three not?
I didn't give him a free pass. I was pointing out how several tells were probably null.

The tells I thought were null are listed in post 808. I didn't see anyone else (Richard, Nick, Espy) make those kind of statements, which I took as BV being a new player and not considering how their words might come out. So the tells related more to his newbieness than any alignment, because he would be that same newbie whether he was town or scum.
Shanba wrote:If Javert were scum trying to promote a counterwagon, why did he not pick the obvious one (AKA Richard?)
At that point its possible the priority was not to save BV but to distance from the counter-wagon while not outright bussing a buddy. Its would be different depending on the player; some will have no qualms about bussing at that point, or even earlier. I'm not interested in talking about Javert though, who is likely town as you say.

I'd rather bring it back around to Faraday and my own day 1 decisions, and how you can compartmentalize Faraday being town and me being scum (since we were both on Richard but not on BV)? I've seen the difference, but it points to you being scum.
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Post Post #1974 (isolation #87) » Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:57 am

Post by Jahudo »

I have dybeck on the town side, or at least unlikely to be mafia with BV and Sando.
Sando wrote:Dybecks claim that the BV case is wishy-washy etc is classic attempt at derailing. No reasoning is provided, it's all generalisations and no content, and all seemingly aimed at simply throwing a spanner in the wagon. Followed by the wishy-washy responses to questioning and the desperate leap onto the Esp wagon. I'm not sure how Dybeck got away without that being raised really...
This post came at a time when BV was about even with Richard at 7 or 8 votes. I could see Sando bussing 1 buddy, but not 2 at the same time. Like, lets lynch dybeck or BV and then lynch the other next.

@boberz: do you think dybeck could be an SK or something similar?
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Post Post #1979 (isolation #88) » Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:31 am

Post by Jahudo »

That's pretty big news. So Shanba, dybeck, Espy and CKD have claimed; and farside is confirmed town; and boberz and Espy are being vouched for. I think we might as well massclaim at this point.

@dybeck: so all your other targets have died? were any nights unsuccessful? Why didn't you say anything after ABR counter-claimed cop? Were you doubting him then, even though I guess there could be a cop and a rolecop in a large together.
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Post Post #1986 (isolation #89) » Wed Jun 09, 2010 9:43 am

Post by Jahudo »

Shanba wrote:The clear implication is that you think the case on him is weak because he's a VI.
Correct.
Shanba wrote:But nick in particular (and actually richard as well, though he's one of those players who has played a lot in a short period of time) is very new, too.
They didn't display the playstyle that I would call "VI".
Shanba wrote:There are a lot of things that were also levelled against bv, such as flip-flopping, which you never addressed.
I addressed it in this post. It didn't concern me because I figured he just saw something different after his re-read. I had asked him about it in an earlier post and didn't get bad feeling in his response.
Shanba wrote:Yet you attack a similarly new player because he said a vote was weird?
Because he had his facts wrong about Richard's stance on farside, not because he was saying something that sounds like something only scum or something with inside information would say (going back to the BV quote I thought was a newb tell). I was pressuring Nick to see if he'd look at it again.
Shanba wrote:You attacked a similarly new player because he got emotional over some pressure and flip-flopped somewhat over a gambit?
I thought that was a calculated fake-gambit, which doesn't sound like something a VI would do. But you do realize that I had dropped my entire Richard case before I called BV a VI, right?

---------------------

** I earlier said Richard was still a liar, and my case was still valid, but wrong. I have to retract that because I misremembered that part of day 1. It was actually Nick that lied about Richard's voting record (I'm sorry for the defamation Richard!!!), which I think is still a valid point.
Nick wrote:Well, I think its pretty clear. Saying that farside looks town in one post and then voting for her in the next post is pretty....well, do I really need to explain this? Its self-explanatory.
So then I said:
Jahudo wrote:His farside vote was in the random vote stage, in post 42. His flop saying farside looked town after his reaction test was in post 309. So I'll ask again, why the vote on farside weird?
I'd be more on board of a Nick wagon if his BV vote looked more like a bus. Its though because he gave the wagon momentum but he also wasn't happy about switching from Richard to BV. Like he didn't want to take credit for the BV lynch.
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Post Post #1999 (isolation #90) » Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:02 am

Post by Jahudo »

Ok no massclaim. And I don't really mind that dybeck wants to withhold information. I don't consider him a suspect and would rather focus on lynching one of my suspects (Shanba preferably, or Nick compromise).

------------------

Shanba, have you explained yet how my vote on Richard / no vote on BV is worse than Faraday's vote / no vote?
Shanba wrote:Ok all this flipping through ancient pages is frustrating: Jahudo, is this an accurate summary of your beliefs on all 3 players we're discussing?

Nick: Made a post in which he made a lot of weak stances and called a vote weird that you don't think is weird (Nick accused him of voting then calling a player town in his next post, when in reality the vote was the rvs and calling the player town was 250 posts later).

Additional info - nick was lurky that first day, but I don't think anyone called him on it.

Everything about that reads VI to me. Even if he were scum, that would be poor play - just basic not doing the research. Besides which he's obviously a new player, his join date being the 15th of march and his title only just having moved now from townsperson to goon (yeah, I know, alts and all that - does anyone seriously think nick is an alt?). I don't understand why Nick did not get one of your VI passes.
Yeah that's a good description of the event. But apparently it would be a good scum play since I'm the only one who ever wanted to talk about it.

I don't see what his newness has to do with whether he's a VI or not? I would still consider zwetschenwasser a VI (if he still played) and he has thousands of posts. Its all about the language they put forth. And I'm arguing that Nick was aware of the truth and he tried to tell a lie anyway in order to validate his Richard vote.
Shanba wrote:bv: flip-flopped on his stance in a few posts and was also later accused of lurking by farside. He votes for richard when under pressure to do so (here's that exchange). But he's probably just a VI so that's ok.

You pressured bv for a response and you were satisfied with that response. But the thing is, the very fact that he was able to justify his actions should surely have indicated that he had some degree of comepetence. In fact, he was the most experienced of all the players we're discussing. Yet you were willing to give him a pass. I don't get it.
I haven't been arguing that being a VI has anything to do with lack of competence. Maybe I should call it something different since we apparently have fundamental disagreements on the term. I'll call BV the "Double entendre machine".

I felt the words he produced were open to interpretation because he didn't know how to express his own intention. He was the only player in this game to make these posts. Example 1 was the comment on Zito being a vig, who he said would be a "valuable townie" to lose. (obviously this was a scumslip but I didn't consider that on day 1). Before he clarified this post I thought he could have been talking about the worst case scenario or his own opinion of Zito. And neither were clearer than the other because of the wording of his statement.

Example 2 was saying he was a "magnet to VT roles", (which I guess was a soft-fakeclaim?). He could have been trying to say all his past games were VT or none of his past games were scum, which was the essence of the question he was posed (link to any past scum games).
Shanba wrote:Richard: Flip-flopped over a gambit he may not have done. Got seriously worked up under pressure over said incident.

So what about this doesn't look newbish or VIish (I know the two words aren't interchangeable, but the reactions from both camps are fairly similar)? Even if he's scum, this is clearly awful play. Yet you thought it was scummy. I will admit, you eventually gave him a pass.
The reason why Richard's gambit couldn't be misinterpreted is because he explained it so simply that it didn't need clarification: He got upset for reactions. If this was a fake gambit (even if he was faking as town) that would be risky play that backfired and nothing more. I don't see any connection between this and his lack of experience, other than the fact that he is new.
Shanba wrote:None of this makes sense to me unless you were scum selectively applying the label for your own reasons - that is, to give you an excuse not to be on the bv wagon.
I was upfront from the start in how I defined VI. Someone asked what VI meant, and I replied by saying BV was a VI because his writing could be read differently than he intended.

But I feel that the basis for your argument is that regardless of whether or not this tell was valid, and whether or not it could be applied to other people, I am a suspect because I did not help to lynch BV. And that last point is and always has been a valid point on me. And on you too.

Except that by your own narrative, and my recent case, Faraday's presence on Richard was scummier than mine was. He tried to turn it into a policy lynch. He used weak reasoning while not having a good reasoning to stay away from the BV wagon. Faraday also called BV a VI, but he didn't try to discount Richard or others as a VI so his lack of a BV vote doesn't make as much sense as my lack of a BV vote.
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Post Post #2009 (isolation #91) » Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:45 am

Post by Jahudo »

There are 6 people alive who didn't end up voting to lynch BV.
@farside: was my reasoning the poorest out of that group? worse than faradays? worse than ABRs?
farside22 wrote:Jahudo:
He first comes in and does nothing but vote those that haven't responded or lurking and not making a case on anyone.
I've pretty much learned now that its "taboo". But really, I've done it in plenty of games before and never had any backlash like this.
farside22 wrote:Finally he votes for Richard
hereWith very poor reasoning.
More like awesome reasoning. Fake gambiting is something scum do. Check out this game if you have the time: Martyr Mafia. I had the shared cult leader by page 3 because of a fake gambit he pulled. It looked alot like how Richard was trying to dodge pressure in this game.
farside wrote:pushes the richard lynch more over bv lynch
Exactly. A BV lynch would've been okay from about mid-way through the day. He was just never my top suspect. I feel like this is how both myself and Javert were at day 1. That there were plenty of good suspects but BV wasn't our top choice.
farside wrote:After this Jah stuck with a list of scum he suspected since day 1. He followed ABR on the second scum suspect but keeps going back to the same people with the same case and not moving or thinking beyond that.
I could see Jahudo scum.
Except for the cases I made on boberz and Faraday. But all the other guys kept surviving and didn't do anything in my mind to look more town, except Nick's BV vote.
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Post Post #2013 (isolation #92) » Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:44 pm

Post by Jahudo »

I don't mind if dybeck keeps quiet about the rest of his claim, so forget my questions.

Is anyone (except boberz) considering lynching dybeck if he doesn't answer?
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Post Post #2038 (isolation #93) » Wed Jun 16, 2010 2:29 am

Post by Jahudo »

NickF227 wrote:
dybeck wrote:
NickF227 wrote:Of course, I am me and I know I'm a villager, so...yeah.
I'm intrigued. Why did you just roleclaim for no reason?
I did? I was just saying I am on the town's side....
Yeah this implies that you were not talking about the role name regardless of whether or not its your actual role. Your correction makes it seem as though you were talking about villager in the town alignment sense. I don't know why you're now trying to use it as some kind of defense.
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Post Post #2047 (isolation #94) » Thu Jun 17, 2010 6:58 am

Post by Jahudo »

@Shanba: How is that Sando wagon analysis coming along?
farside22 wrote:I am completely lost this game right now.
Why am I a better lynch than Faraday now? You say we both voted Richard over BV with poor reasoning. Was my day 2 play worse than Faradays? Was my day 3 play bussing, and if so what makes you think so compared to any of the other votes on Sando?
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Post Post #2059 (isolation #95) » Fri Jun 18, 2010 6:16 am

Post by Jahudo »

Can people make up their minds soon? Deadline is in 2 days and this already has the feel like its going to be a rushed decision. Nick is a meh lynch. Espy is a bad lynch. dybeck is a bad lynch. Shanba's the only one I really like.

@Shanba: The problem I have is that it looks like your case (over day 1 voting patterns) can equally apply to me and Faraday. Obviously you know your role and I know mine, but that doesn't really help matters. I've already explained why Faraday's tells are stronger than mine. I haven't seen you try to argue the other way around.

On top of that there's the Sando wagon. I voted for Sando. Faraday ignored him. Someone other than me please analyze that.
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Post Post #2065 (isolation #96) » Sat Jun 19, 2010 4:57 am

Post by Jahudo »

Limited Access today and tomorrow


If there's anything I can answer about my case or the case on me, I'll do it late tonight. Otherwise I'll just summarize everything I've already posted on the matter.
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Post Post #2072 (isolation #97) » Sat Jun 19, 2010 4:35 pm

Post by Jahudo »

Faraday didn't vote for either BV-scum or Sando-scum. He ignored Sando and gave a meta reason for not voting BV. That's weak play on both accounts and connects him to both scum like no other player left in the game. His reason for wanting to lynch Richard wasn't very compelling either, since he was focusing on the AtE and some meta.

I didn't vote for BV-scum but did vote for Sando-scum. My reasons are here, and I'm pretty sure they weren't rehash from other cases. I'll try and find that out. My reason for not voting BV is more legitimate in my eyes than Faraday's reason. I thought posts like "i'm a magnet for vt roles" and others were posts he was not being clear about and could be open to interpretation, some of them scummy sounding. My reason for wanting to lynch Richard was also more legitimate in my eyes. I thought he was faking his gambit and I questioned/pressured him about it.

Its understandable that Shanba would want to lynch me based on my day 1 play, but if he had replaced anyone else he would apparently want to lynch Faraday. He hasn't yet said why he wouldn't, to my knowledge.
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Post Post #2101 (isolation #98) » Thu Jun 24, 2010 6:34 am

Post by Jahudo »

dybeck, did you target nick last night?
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Post Post #2106 (isolation #99) » Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:50 am

Post by Jahudo »

dybeck wrote:
Jahudo wrote:dybeck, did you target nick last night?
Yep. But there is more. First, why do you ask?
Since you suspected both Nick and Shanba yesterday I figured you might target one of them. It sounds like Nick needs to claim.

Vote: Nick
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Post Post #2109 (isolation #100) » Thu Jun 24, 2010 4:10 pm

Post by Jahudo »

dybeck wrote:They both already claimed...
Nick said he was only alignment claiming when he said he was a villager. Does that change your vote?
I'm assuming you did not get the "vanilla villager" role from him, based on your vote.
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Post Post #2125 (isolation #101) » Fri Jun 25, 2010 12:37 pm

Post by Jahudo »

boberz and javert: do you think there's a change he's not a role cop at all? Because if you are confident that he is a role cop, I don't see how any details can distinguish scum role cop from town role cop.

Besides, he's voting Nick AFTER investigating him. I think that calls for Nick to claim before dybeck explains anything further.

On a side note, CKD is town.
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Post Post #2130 (isolation #102) » Sat Jun 26, 2010 6:46 am

Post by Jahudo »

I'm going on vacation and will have no access to a computer from June 28 to July 9. Patrick might find a temp replacement for me, but there's nothing in place yet.

I'll probably put myself in the not voting column if Nick doesn't show up again, though I really think he's involved in a contradiction.
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Post Post #2137 (isolation #103) » Sat Jun 26, 2010 8:35 am

Post by Jahudo »

Nick, do you still have your role PM the mod gave you? Is there anything you can do at night?

dybeck, what do you mean Nick not trying to kill you? For him to have WIFOM on you? Or is this role related?
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Post Post #2146 (isolation #104) » Sun Jun 27, 2010 2:15 am

Post by Jahudo »

I'm confused by Nick's confusion.
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Post Post #2149 (isolation #105) » Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:23 pm

Post by Jahudo »

unvote


OK, I'm gone until the 9th.
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Post Post #2238 (isolation #106) » Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:59 am

Post by Jahudo »

I'm back and will start reading soon.
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Post Post #2240 (isolation #107) » Wed Jul 07, 2010 1:49 pm

Post by Jahudo »

I only had 4 pages to read.

I don't see how dybeck's lack of information on Nick last night means one thing over another, like he was roleblocked and nick is likely scum from it. The new details over his role are somewhat confusing. Why use strong mode so much if there was a warning about being too greedy?

An SK is possible because we have a few double kill nights. SK hunting doesn't seem easier than mafia hunting now though, since we can still talk about Sando and BV connections. Like Faraday.

Also Nick is not a good lynch today. I'm starting to see him as town again today (since dybeck's claim fell through). Even if Nick did retract a miller claim. :)
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Post Post #2241 (isolation #108) » Wed Jul 07, 2010 1:50 pm

Post by Jahudo »

Vote: Shanba
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Post Post #2250 (isolation #109) » Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:33 pm

Post by Jahudo »

What setup information are you referring to? A role cop is often a scum role, so how does his claim make perfect sense as only a townie?

I'd like to know how he could have used strong mode so many times. There's still alot of questions about the karma mechanic but it seems extraordinary that he could have done that without some kind of consequence.

I have no intention of voting him now. I also think he should vote someone, anyone, else. Nick is not today's lynch.
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Post Post #2255 (isolation #110) » Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:08 am

Post by Jahudo »

@dybeck: have you asked the mod if mafia goons are vanillas?

I thought this was already answered, or at least assumed since dybeck said he was confirming the vanillas results as town.

@dybeck: if your weak mode is worth keeping secret, why haven't you used it one of these nights yet?
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Post Post #2258 (isolation #111) » Fri Jul 09, 2010 4:05 am

Post by Jahudo »

Ok nevermind then.

So you think dybeck just forgot about the flavor aspect of the game? I'd think it would be something scum would make sure they got right, since we've seen plenty of dead villager flips. It seems more likely that he has this role and the mod uses vanilla to equal villager.
mod wrote:The following is a copy of the vanilla PM in this game, named villager for flavour.
He even says its the same thing. So I think dybeck is a role cop.
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Post Post #2260 (isolation #112) » Fri Jul 09, 2010 11:27 am

Post by Jahudo »

Well for that I'd rather look at scum connections. This was a really interesting quote from day 1.
Sando wrote:Dybecks claim that the BV case is wishy-washy etc is classic attempt at derailing. No reasoning is provided, it's all generalisations and no content, and all seemingly aimed at simply throwing a spanner in the wagon. Followed by the wishy-washy responses to questioning and the desperate leap onto the Esp wagon. I'm not sure how Dybeck got away without that being raised really...
BV and Richard were tied at this point and Sando was not on either wagon. It looks like he's bussing BV and trying to connect him to Dybeck.

Except in day 2 and 3 he didn't make a case for dybeck, which doesn't make sense if he was really trying to pair a townie with his scumbuddy. So maybe dybeck is mafia. Unless something else can explain Sando's thought process. I know Sando isn't a newb, and his talk about the Richard wagon and BV wagon being derailed looks like he had a plan.
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Post Post #2266 (isolation #113) » Sat Jul 10, 2010 2:41 pm

Post by Jahudo »

ABR fake-counter claimed Sando. I don't think he's mafia because of that and some other instances of not trying to keep a low profile. Maybe he's third party, like the potential 2nd killer, but that might end up being whoever's left by process of elimination with dybeck vouching for some people and mafia to find.
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Post Post #2280 (isolation #114) » Tue Jul 13, 2010 1:21 am

Post by Jahudo »

Does anyone know where ABR has done risky gambits like this before, either alignment? I'm sure there's good comparisons out there but I don't know where to look.

I will admit ABR's fake counter-claim seems riskier and more foolish thing to do as town than scum in general, but I think his reputation seems to make town a good possibility. He found Sando scummy and just wanted him lynched. He didn't buy parts of the claim and explained that. He saw himself as practically hanging from the noose anyway. It all suggests he was ready to take risks.

And uncounter-claimed cops probably don't get lynched the day they claim. I wouldn't think so anyway.
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Post Post #2284 (isolation #115) » Tue Jul 13, 2010 6:50 am

Post by Jahudo »

How many people have a town read on Shanba? If I know that lynch isn't going to happen I'll just vote dybeck.
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Post Post #2298 (isolation #116) » Fri Jul 16, 2010 12:51 pm

Post by Jahudo »

I think Faraday is the only claimed PR at the moment? Faraday who did you target last night? Also since your back, can you explain why you've targeted each of your previous targets?
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Post Post #2301 (isolation #117) » Sat Jul 17, 2010 12:55 am

Post by Jahudo »

curiouskarmadog wrote:going to be busy until monday...
ditto
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Post Post #2310 (isolation #118) » Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:19 am

Post by Jahudo »

Vote: Faraday


Looks like its claim time for me.

I am a Tracker
. Last night I saw Faraday go to boberz, not Javert like he claims.

My weak mode is that I can see if someone either went somewhere or nowhere. My strong mode is that I could see who they went to, if they went anywhere.

My other actions have been: N1 farside but the action failed (not sure if that means it was blocked). N2 Ojanen no action, N3 Seraphim no action, N4 CKD no action, N5 Nick no action. I used strong mode on Farside, Seraphim and Faraday, and weak mode on the rest.

I was wondering if I got bad karma day 1 for not lynching BV, making my action fail. Then I tried strong mode again after lynching Sando day 3. But when dybeck claimed that he used strong all the time I figured to use it on Faraday. Before that I was afraid all I could get on Faraday/Shanba was a weak mode when I already knew he was a power role. Sera/CKD/Nick were claimed VTs by those points, so it was easier to use the weak mode on them and see if they were telling the truth. And Ojanen was someone I had a hard time reading in general.

And i've been trying to breadcrumb when I find out someone couldn't have killed on a particular night. Bolded for emphasis:
Jahudo wrote:
I don't agree with the Ojanen case
, and thought her opinion of the people pushing the BV wagon (Espy in particular) made sense in shaping her opinion on BV as a secondary suspect. Overall I'd say
she isn't scum who killed Anon or poro.
Jahudo wrote:
I can't see
Seraphim being scum with BV, or
Sera killing Richard last night.
Jahudo wrote:
I think CKD is town.
He was 6th on the BV wagon and even called the Richard wagon bad when it was still larger. And day 2 he was pushing the Sando wagon as better than the Pom wagon. I don't know how that could be seen as distancing more so than a normally developed case? So I'd say
he's definitely not the scum we're looking for that might have killed OJ or Amish last night.
And then there was the dybeck claim about Nick that got me confused, since I knew Nick didn't do anything last night but dybeck thought he did:
Jahudo wrote:I'll probably put myself in the not voting column if Nick doesn't show up again, though I really think he's involved in a contradiction.
So anyway Faraday is scum.
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Post Post #2318 (isolation #119) » Mon Jul 19, 2010 1:15 pm

Post by Jahudo »

curiouskarmadog wrote:Jahudo, given the two deaths last night, who do you think is the other killing role?
It's only happened on even nights and I feel like that's deliberate and not WIFOM or lucky blocking. I was thinking it's an SK but I don't have any ideas on how a weak or strong mode could work for them, if killing is even under those rules.

I've recently been wondering if the second kill is coming from the same mafia and they're only able to perform a double kill if the townies have spent X amount of strong modes. Espy and boberz were obvious targets last night because dybeck cleared them. So either two factions made lucky guesses or its not a coincidence.

We should still plan for their being a second scum group but I'm confident that Faraday connects well to BV and Sando, so I think he'll flip mafia. The rest of today I'll look back and pick another overall scum and also if anyone is possible connected to BV/Sando, or not at all. I already feel that ABR is not in the Sando mafia.
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Post Post #2328 (isolation #120) » Tue Jul 20, 2010 5:59 am

Post by Jahudo »

Ok I'm automatically distrustful of this claim but mostly because I know you're scum who is still trying to find a way to win. Maybe you're mafia hoping for one more mislynch and maybe get the real SK if they even exist. Or maybe you are SK and you still could be withholding part of your claim, or just playing the odds and seeing if you can still win while the town is focused on mafia.
Faraday wrote:On night 1 I used 'radar'. This let me know the amount of mafia and power roles in the game.
So you aren't told whether there are mafia power roles? Like they wouldn't be included in the power role total?

Radar seems like an odd power for an SK to have. I'm not sure I could imagine it being helpful. Why did you decide to use it night 1?

I also can't help but notice the radar result is a convenient fact to reveal, because if you are telling the truth then we obviously shouldn't lynch you with 2 mafia and only 3 townies going into night.

If you are lying and 1 of 2 mafia left, then we'd have to find your partner today. I guess that's the safe move. Ugh, I gotta think it over some more.
Also Shanba's claim was pretty fucking great I thought :P
I agree, and have to ask him when this is over whether he borrowed it from Boost Mafia or if he made it up on the spot.
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Post Post #2350 (isolation #121) » Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:54 am

Post by Jahudo »

I'm leaning on Nick being most likely mafia. However my opinion of Nick has flip-flopped about a dozen times this game, so maybe I'm just going to keep running in circles.

I do share farside's fears here:
farside22 wrote:I played with Nick and he got lynched day 1 and was town. He's very anti-town type player which was why I say he's a scum's wet dream of an easy lynch.
But even she agreed he could be scum when she was alive.

Nick was the key vote in shifting momentum from Richard to BV day 1. But he wasn't happy about it and under the circumstances I can't imagine why he'd do something he didn't want to do AND didn't have to do in order to secure a lynch. There was no threat of a no lynch at that point. It looked like all he was really worried about was not being on the lynch wagon. I think it shows insight.
@Nick: do you have anything new to say about that day? Were you feeling like a no lynch was going to happen?

And Nick you should probably claim again, just so we're clear on what claim was or wasn't an error in reading your role PM.
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Post Post #2354 (isolation #122) » Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:46 am

Post by Jahudo »

A few questions for everybody, but mainly for CKD, ABR and Javert:

1. Is Faraday an SK? (Strongly Disagree / Disagree / Agree / Strongly Agree)
2. Is Nick scum? (Strongly Disagree / Disagree / Agree / Strongly Agree)

I'm "Agree" on both but its not set in stone yet. It's pretty hard to trust someone who's been your top suspects for a few days, and then you find out they are confirmed scum :P

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Post Post #2360 (isolation #123) » Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:02 pm

Post by Jahudo »

curiouskarmadog wrote:Jahudo, your thoughts on ABR’s insistence that I am the lynch today?..and have you ever played with ABR before?
He's been that way towards you for a few days now so it isn't a surprise. But given my proof that you did not target anyone night 4, I think he needs to explain his thoughts more. And I've only played with him once before, but that was a short game with poor scumhunting all around so I don't have a good idea of what is normal for him.

Here's some things we know about ABR's case on CKD:
I thought CKD was a power role before he claimed vanilla. Now I think he might be scum or SK because he's always asking what people think about him and shit.
I'm betting on CKD...lots of distancing between him and Sando before the latter hit the ropes.
I guess the second quote was about Sando's distancing before he said CKD had been investigated as innocent?

@ABR:
ABR wrote:I have a lot of things to say about CKD. For now I'm just going to tease you a bit by telling you he's likely the scum.
Is something that could use elaboration now. Was there something else you were thinking at that time?
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Post Post #2361 (isolation #124) » Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:11 pm

Post by Jahudo »

Albert B. Rampage wrote:What makes you think Javert's claim is real? There's actually nothing proven with his alleged doctorness.
Javert can only be scum if Faraday is mafia with him, or if Faraday is SK but lying about his radar results. And I don't think Faraday would lie about his results as an SK to protect a different scum faction's buddy. I can't see that helping him as much as helping the mafia.

So if we are going to believe Faraday is the SK, Javert is not a valid lynch.
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Post Post #2367 (isolation #125) » Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:00 pm

Post by Jahudo »

The part about there being 6 town power roles. Papa Zito, Pom, Prozac, dybeck and myself makes 5. No one other than Javert has claimed a power role, although we should probably ask Nick again just to be sure he hasn't switched back to miller :P

I do worry Faraday is lying about something, but not so much about Javert.
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Post Post #2383 (isolation #126) » Sat Jul 24, 2010 4:04 am

Post by Jahudo »

RE: ABR's case points on CKD.

1. Cool quote. In context it came after Anon said the scum were in this group:
Anon wrote:bv, espeonage, nick, faraday, prob dybeck, and prob sando.
So there's nothing wrong with CKD's confidence if a townie also said it. And CKD had previously made suspicions about BV, Sando and a little on dybeck, so they aren't coming out of the blue either.

Also Anon is an awesome scumhunter.

2. That's a good point since the vote count was at the top of the page showing L-2 and CKD came in with 4 back-to-back posts before his vote post, so if anything new was flying while he was writing his first post, he should have caught it before voting. No excuse for not knowing you'd be the hammer. (in fairness I didn't mind the vote at that time and still don't)

3. I remember that point being brought up before. The questions are worded oddly but I'm not sure how it benefits him as scum, other than telling him he needs to change his act. If he's being voted or suspected, that's telling him the same thing isn't it?

4. Wait, did CKD actually make that post, condemning the Pom lynch, after being the hammer on Pomegranate? How does that happen?

5. The last time (in a completed game) I remember someone claiming out of the blue, they were scum (Ectomancer in Quayside). So I'm not going to say that's a town tell.

I still don't understand the reasoning behind your reason to claim there. Confirmation sentences should be standard for all roles in the same game. Same location, same wording. It's a copy and paste job the mods do when they send off role PMs, so I don't see how it can make a VT claim more believable. So what was the basis of that thinking?
curiouskarmadog wrote:another question nick, both Javert and Jahudo claim that they have been blocked...do you believe them?
It was either a blocker or some side-effect of the karma mechanic that could have stopped my track from going through.
NickF227 wrote:And to the 'CKD wasn't tracked as sending the kill in', um, hello, isn't that the head of the mafia's job?
In most cases any of the mafia members can submit the kill. And in those exceptions I think the mafia is still able to kill even after their leader is killed. Except for that one Adel game, so in other words rarely.

I have no access until Monday.
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Post Post #2419 (isolation #127) » Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:57 am

Post by Jahudo »

Ugh. good game.

I wish I had been around for the weekend, but I don't know where I could have helped. I don't feel like I play well as the "confirmed townie".
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