Karma Mafia (Game Over!)

[Patrick]

Votecount

Albert B. Rampage (1) -- My Milked Eek
RichardGHP (6) -- Porochaz, Faraday, bv310, NickF227, Pomegranate, boberz
bv310 (8) -- Papa Zito, Anon, Seraphim, Espeonage, farside22, curiouskarmadog, RichardGHP, Albert B. Rampage
Espeonage (2) -- Ojanen, dybeck
dybeck (1) -- Sando
NickF227 (1) -- Jahudo
Porochaz (1) -- Javert

Not voting: Nobody
20 alive, 11 to lynch.

Deadline: April 8th

[boberz]

OJ: I don't really think MME's been pressure to really post content. 2 people commenting about the behavoir isn't pressure in my view.

Oh bob. Hey bob why are you freeking out being tied to bv if you think he is trying to soft claim town there?
Or did I read your view on what bv was "supposedly" saying false?

You have misunderstood me!

I think he tried very hard not to claim. I think he thought that he was just saying he was protown.

However I think he thought that VT was some kind of banner/description that could apply to any protown situation. Thus I thought he would have to be a VT to think that obviously.

However after cooling down a bit. I have thought about it and it may be the case that he believed it to be true but was doing so from a mafia perspective. Becaus eof course he would not see the protown role descriptions as scum. So I was actually wrong. Now because I expect some fools wont read this psot properly I am going to shout at them.

NB FOR ANYONE NOT READING THIS POST PROPERLY I AM ADMITTING TO BEING WRONG

[boberz]

OJ: I don't really think MME's been pressure to really post content. 2 people commenting about the behavoir isn't pressure in my view.

True, actually. But that was how bob saw it and I was trying to read bob.

I saw it like that, but since admitted that pressured was a bit of an exageration.

[farside22]

I could have sworn this whole conversation in regards to bv was someone asking bv310 for meta as scum and him saying he doesn't have finished games as anything but VT or light PR's.

Anyone else miss that convo? Am I hearing voices?

[Ojanen]

why I hate PBPA's:
a description of Richard in the "we are posting animal pictures" phase

Post 0:
no objection
Post 1:
No objection
Post 2:
Slight AtE.
No content, beginning a lurk.
Post 3:
No content, was online for half an hour clearly didnt use the time wisely.
Post 4:
On again 3 hours later still no content.

But attempting to look through the rest of it now.

[Pomegranate]

No farside, you're right:

592-

Bv can I have a link to a scum game of yours please?

593-

I don't have one to show you, Faraday. I seem to be a magnet for VT roles.

604-

It wasn't a claim, it was an observation that in the last several games I've played (and been out in), I've had either VT or mild PR roles.

[boberz]

That seems to back up my inclination that he considers 'mild PR roles' equivalent enough to be considered VT.

I knew that was in the random stage, but I hate the random stage (althought this one was good fun) and will hit lurking as hard here as I will elsewhere. People should be trying to avoid randomness not just mill around in the background of it. Note how the first two or three I did not consider scummy, I gave him some slack but reigned it in when he continued.

[bv310]

"Mild PR roles" are usually anything Mason-y or lower on the power scale. I like being a Mason, but it's not exactly a huge PR before Lylo (and Mylo)

[Ojanen]

I knew that was in the random stage, but I hate the random stage (althought this one was good fun) and will hit lurking as hard here as I will elsewhere. People should be trying to avoid randomness not just mill around in the background of it. Note how the first two or three I did not consider scummy, I gave him some slack but reigned it in when he continued.

You just ended up ignoring the context here though, putting down participation in RVS/answering someone's questions as scummy.
I attempted to crosslook through it with the real iso but it's too tedious. The iso's VIish. Hate the lurking lately.
Your PBPA comes across as inflated.

[boberz]

As I pointed out earlier VIs can be scum and as I said earlier I think this one is.

Just because I did not write the context does not mean I ignored it, normally I would have considered the second and third posts lurking but because of the context I delayed it. I did check the posts in context I promise (look at how long it took me for evidence).

My PBPA or my iso??? My PBPA is inflated if by which you mean reptitive. It is deliberately repetitive to show how little improvement there has been. But you dont like them fair enough. Still doesnt make them scummy.

[boberz]

Even if he is answering questions the fact he is posting without content is scummy. That is my point. I did not ignore the context I just didnt reference it.

[farside22]

Bob I don't understand your comment here at all then.

In fact I dont think BV is scum after that. He definately tried to not claim anything he wrote role

s

. He was considering it. I think he has never seen any roles and thought every protown role was a VT. How could he do that as scum???

Take a step back everyone.

What does asking for bv to show meta have to do with him being scum/town in this game?

[boberz]

I am talking about post 593:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 38#2202338

and

594.

Zito seemed to think it was a claim and this is what I have been talking about. Later I thought i had conclusive proof that he was town, I was convinced. I have now withdrawn that. I am a bit confused as to where our wires got crossed but they are clearly tangled now.

[farside22]

I am talking about post 593:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 38#2202338

and

594.

Zito seemed to think it was a claim and this is what I have been talking about. Later I thought i had conclusive proof that he was town, I was convinced. I have now withdrawn that. I am a bit confused as to where our wires got crossed but they are clearly tangled now.

I took the facepalm as not having meta to analysis. It's a question to Zito.

[Anon]

boberz scream confused town trying to explain something he truly believed and failing in the attempt. stop wasting time with him.

The scumz lie between these guys:
bv, espeonage, nick, faraday, prob dybeck, and prob sando.

i mean, look at this scumbaggo bv, he doesnt even waste time defending himself. gogoog lynch.

vig, you already know who to target. tia.

[NickF227]

Okay, I cna't find the post, but I know farside asked me who was scummy, so...

I think both Richard and Albert are scummy. Albert is just dicking around, making inane posts, either he's scum or just doing it to be a douchebag.

And Richard...I suspect him, because when has he even acted pro-town?

[Anon]

Okay, I cna't find the post, but I know farside asked me who was scummy, so...

I think both Richard and Albert are scummy. Albert is just dicking around, making inane posts, either he's scum or just doing it to be a douchebag.

And Richard...I suspect him, because when has he even acted pro-town?

Unvote Vote: Nick.

Even more sure than I am of bv.

[Jahudo]

Nick: Post 519 is calling your name. Please respond.

Also Nick: Are Richard and ABR your only two suspects right now?

-----------------
@Richard: are you still defending the case against you? what are you feeling right now about your situation?

-----------------
@dybeck: why do you think Esperonage is scum? Is it the same reasons Ojanen posted? What do you think of his defense?

I think the Esperonage wagon needs more attention, though I still like my Nick spot better. My take:

EBWOP: Because MME pointed out something that town really needed to hear at that point.

What exactly did he point out that the town needed to hear? I don't see anything he said, where he was the first one to say it. I also still think Anon said it before him, on the Richard part. So you're two reads looks conflicted.

He was tunnelling and we were barely out of RVS.
What I had against Anon was how he said he had 3 suspects and went for the one with the most votes already on them.

That wasn't the reason you gave the first time. You said Anon was scraping through without content, as in fluff posting. Not tunneling and jumping on the opportunistic wagon.

[Javert]

1.)

The boberz conversation was very confusing (I still don't quite understand his/her position), but in the end I don't get the feeling that boberz came off scummy from the exchange, although boberz does come off as a little irrational.

2.)

Why is bob so weird about a tie if he believe's bv is town?
Anyone?

Oh bob. Hey bob why are you freeking out being tied to bv if you think he is trying to soft claim town there?

I could have sworn this whole conversation in regards to bv was someone asking bv310 for meta as scum and him saying he doesn't have finished games as anything but VT or light PR's.

Anyone else miss that convo? Am I hearing voices?

→

a.)

All of these quotes seem to be written in a way so as to dismiss boberz out of hand as ridiculous and scummy. I fail to see what is inherently wrong or scummy about not wanting to be connected to somebody, even if you think that player is town.
→

b.)

farside22 twice appeals to others to take up the rally (Anyone? Anyone else miss that convo?). It kind of reminds me of talking about somebody and acting like they are not standing right there beside you. These posts look like they're written to instigate moreso than scumhunt, almost in the hopes of a meltdown.
→

c.)

I see absolutely no relevance in what “started the conversation,” and that moreso than the other two quotes seem very disingenuous. Most conversations spring from something very tiny. To point to the beginning of the conversation and imply “my, isn't it ridiculous where boberz has taken this?” is just ignoring the realities of playing mafia.

FoS: farside22

. I was fine with your pressure on RichardGHP, but I am not liking your attitude with boberz. It does not feel like you have a very pure motive.

3.)

bob's 640 looks like IIoA to me.

thanks for clarifying your alignment, scum.

I don't see any conclusion. I don't see any real content, either. You're just commenting on the posts.

I also feel like Seraphim is being a overly dismissive, but it does feel as ill-intentioned as farside22's dismissal.

I disagree that boberz's post is really an “Information without Analysis” post. You complain that there is no conclusion, but there was: the very fact that boberz was voting for RichardGHP before making that post tells you the conclusion is “RichardGHP is scummy.” Also, boberz organized the facts in such a way so as to make how he is coming to that conclusion fairly obvious, and interjected opinions throughout. Yes, the post was boring to read and difficult to follow (largely because of lack of quotes and links), but I do not think it was fluff.

The theory behind “Information without Analysis” being a scum-tell is that scum will try to make it look like they are contributing without actually saying anything. When I read boberz post, what he was trying to say (that RichardGHP is scummy, and that not one of his posts look town) is pretty clear. Instead of using labels to characterize posts, please make sure your label is actually applicable.

4.)

I originally thought bv310 was probably town, but the more he posts the more I am starting to change my opinion. He really only seems to pop into the thread to answer questions to him, and most of the time I have already forgotten what people have asked him so that his posts almost seem like non sequiturs. He does not look like he is scumhunting, or even trying to scumhunt, but rather to see if he can wait out the wagon on himself.

I particularly did not care for his “yes, because you've contributed so much more” post (Post 589). It seems like he is just sulking at this point because he is garnering votes while Albert B. Rampage is not.

FoS: bv310

.

[dybeck]

You may hate them it doesnt make them scummy. The conclusion is, Richard is scum, this is why so many of us have been on him for so long. The analysis was reading into the posts what they actually meant.

This is ludicorus.

Oja I believe lurking is scummy not just anit town. Reason being, both town and scum have external reasons to lynch, but only scum have tactical reasons to lynch. I believe being called out on lurking acknowledging it and then lurking more is more scummy because it shows me that they are (less likely to be doing it for external reasons) therfore more likely to be doing it tactically, so it becomes more scummy.

Once they're called on it, it's clear that their lurking is doing them no good, and is making them look scummier. What 'tactical' good would it do them in this instance to continue lurking?

And what gives you the impression that external obligations go away once pressure is applied in a mafia thread?

And, Boberz, post #614, does the "I'm acting far too scummy to be scum!" defence work against you? If not, why are you trying to employ it here?

[farside22]

→ a.) All of these quotes seem to be written in a way so as to dismiss boberz out of hand as ridiculous and scummy. I fail to see what is inherently wrong or scummy about not wanting to be connected to somebody, even if you think that player is town.
→ b.) farside22 twice appeals to others to take up the rally (Anyone? Anyone else miss that convo?). It kind of reminds me of talking about somebody and acting like they are not standing right there beside you. These posts look like they're written to instigate moreso than scumhunt, almost in the hopes of a meltdown.
→ c.) I see absolutely no relevance in what “started the conversation,” and that moreso than the other two quotes seem very disingenuous. Most conversations spring from something very tiny. To point to the beginning of the conversation and imply “my, isn't it ridiculous where boberz has taken this?” is just ignoring the realities of playing mafia.

As soon as I say bob is scum with bv310 he freeks out. I got reading his comments that he believed bv to be soft claiming town.
If he believes the claim and believes bv310 will flip town why would he freek out being tied to someone he believes will flip town?
That was my whole point.
As for B and C. I always talk like that. It's a hello mcfly moment. Asking if I misunderstood what was being said. I do have a tendency to misunderstand people and bobz was making no sense.

[Papa Zito]

I seem to be a magnet for VT roles.

facepalm.jpg

I took this to mean "I'm always VT, and here I am yet again."

[Ojanen]

mod: V/LA

need to stay in hospital. hopefully/probably back in 2-3 days.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Get well, Ojanen.

[boberz]

You may hate them it doesnt make them scummy. The conclusion is, Richard is scum, this is why so many of us have been on him for so long. The analysis was reading into the posts what they actually meant.

This is ludicorus.

Oja I believe lurking is scummy not just anti town. Reason being, both town and scum have external reasons to lurk, but only scum have tactical reasons to lurk. I believe being called out on lurking acknowledging it and then lurking more is more scummy because it shows me that they are (less likely to be doing it for external reasons) therfore more likely to be doing it tactically, so it becomes more scummy.

Once they're called on it, it's clear that their lurking is doing them no good, and is making them look scummier. What 'tactical' good would it do them in this instance to continue lurking?

And what gives you the impression that external obligations go away once pressure is applied in a mafia thread?

And, Boberz, post #614, does the "I'm acting far too scummy to be scum!" defence work against you? If not, why are you trying to employ it here?

They are less likely to be doing it for external reasons because I know they are redaing the thread thoroghly etc. It does not take away the external reasons but diminishes their probability.

I dont know what tactical good it might do in this situation, or what they percieve the tactical good is in this situation, because I am not in their situation. But it is clear that there are tactical reasons to lurk and lots of them for scum, the percieved value may supercede that of whatever they are trying to hide or avoid. And with people questioning the tell it only amplifies this.

It was not 'too scummy to be scum' it was more 'read the thing in context and explain why it is scummy, because it is not'.