Karma Mafia (Game Over!)

[boberz]

You got the definitions of AtE and OMGUS totally wrong, or at the very least didn't apply them to me very well.

Scum have tactical reason to lurk
Scum have personal reason to lurk
Town have personal reason to lurk
Town have tactical reason to lurk

Would'ya look at that.

Lurking is not exclusively or even predominantly performed by scum, so how can it possibly be a scumtell?

inb4 boberz posts a giant wall of text I have no hope of getting through.

Give me a town tactic to lurk. If you are a town who thinks it is in his interests to lurk then I may be a convert to policy lynching [/joke]

Scum definately have more reasons to tactically lurk whereas social reasons will balance.

You promised us another proper post dont dissapoint me again.

You make a long case in response to my long case. Expect a long one back. You are scum after all.

I dont have AtE at all wrong. You just do it too much.

Go on do some scumhunting, I dare you.

[Anon]

I havent even read the wallotexting this thread is evolving into.

But seriously, this wagon has a lot of scummy people its not even funny.

RichardGHP (6) -- Porochaz, Faraday, bv310, NickF227, Pomegranate, boberz

I think if richardscum bussers should have already gone to other viable choices. Just only analyzing tis wagon, we have richard likely town.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Richard is posting a lot of inconsequential crap trying to make himself look good. Scummy.

[Anon]

Ill give it a look. No love for Nikscum?

[boberz]

I cannot justify leaving this wagon Anon. I understna dmany have me as scummy, but that does not detract from Richard's scumminess. Every timeI considered changing my vote I would read back and be struck by something else that Richard did that was crap.

I can see a case on bv but dont really want it.

I want to see more from Jack because I dont understand what he has been doing. Pom I could look at I suppose, but Richard is the standout scum.

[dybeck]

I'm beginning to understand why everyone is voting Richard.

Ya me too. I personally don't tend to go for "unhelpful and annoying" as a reason to lynch someone, but I can understand why people do.

[Amished]

Just got to bv actually posting, and I have a 3rd scumspect. Espionage is my 4th. If I needed a fifth it'd probably be NickF.

So therefore I don't think that Richard or boberz is scum.

Boberz (no offense) reads as about the biggest VI ever (and I've played with a lot of VI's).

Javert does make a couple good points about Porochaz. Probably upgrade him to my 5th suspect.

@Sera: What differentiates a scum pbpa from a town pbpa? Why are all pbpa's scummy?

Sera's reaction to boberz does reinforce my position on him. Shortly (edit, I lied, it's not short at all), my case against Sera is this:

First thing that seemed off to me was the seemingly jump into a serious note while instead prolonging the RVS (PZ is obv scum, must be wagoned in ISO 2 to PZ is scum because he's a pirate/said 'arr' in ISO 5.

Really doesn't say anything until Sera votes for Richard in ISO 14 (for no reason, and before the infamous "you all should lynch me" quote from Richard)

I don't want Richard lynched but I do want to see more votes on him. I'm not letting him get away with this 'gambit' bullshit unless he pulls out some analysis. I don't care if he's inexperienced or not, wallowing in self-pity does the town no favors. Under pressure, scum will often pull 'gambits' as a way to take pressure off themselves. Nope. Not gonna happen.

-snip-

Does anyone else see the dichotomy here? Sera doesn't want Richard lynched, but does want more votes on him (???) and Richard said he was pulling a gambit which Sera says scum are more likely to do (so why doesn't Sera want Richard lynched again?)

Depending on what Richard does next, bv may be my next suspect. I may have to read up on his meta because his posts are throwing up red flags.

Ooooookaaaaay, Richard does deserve to be lynched. (This is after asking Jah and bv opinions on Rich in ISO 19, and then in ISO 20 asking for clarification on bv's position after bv responds to ISO 19)

ISO 22 is also a classic, so let me bold the important parts:

FoS: All 'lurker hunters'

I don't know how many of you are scum or not

. All I know is that your crusade is not helping anyone and is getting on my nerves.

It's not scum hunting because you have no reason to believe DocPotter is scum

. If he doesn't post today, he'll be replaced. Big effing deal. It's the first week of the first Day. By focusing solely on the lurkers, you are acting like them by not participating in the game and giving us little or no read on you. Use your vote to hunt possible suspects and let the mod do his job.

Anon's recap post is terrible.

Richard is not an 'easy target', Richard is a player with strange anti-town behavior that needs more consideration and more pressure. He's been backpedalling and doing all sorts of scummy stuff. Not to mention jumping on a wagon based on the RVS based on this craplogic is very bad. Very bad. I wouldn't doubt that if Andrew is scum, Anon is scum with him.

dybeck, why ABR?

If I had another vote, I would be voting bv310. He's straddling the fence like a horny anteater. He's still voting Porochaz for 'extending the RVS'. Bullshit. Not to mention, as stated earlier, his posts just scream scum to me.

First bolded: FoS'ing people that essentially want activity from all players; especially when not even bothering to look at the motivations behind each of the posts asking for lurkers to be poked with a sharp stick. Suspicion of a group without regard to pro-townieness/scumminess? riiiight

Second bolded: singling out a single lurker asking if they were scum. This does not seem sincere at all: it's a sweeping generalization about why people are voting for lurkers. Even if it's "not scumhunting" it is progressing the game.

Third bolded: This is the best of them all: Richard is anti-town, and then he's scum (which is largely for the same behavior that richard has been doing all game, and previously Sera didn't want him lynched)

Oh, and what happened to that bv hate? Oh, it comes up herewhere he accuses bv of not taking a serious stand on anything; but just goes on with his regularly scheduled program of pushing what I feel he knows to be a Richard mislynch. Like so:

Please explain, since you are such an expert at reading players, why he backpedaled and then said his 'lynch me now' statement was a gambit.

All of which has been said previously comes from scum. This continues in ISO 27 and ISO 28

Finally Sera decides that the wagon on Richard isn't going to go through so he puts a "case" together on bv here

Oh, and just forget about Sera's whole first portion of the game where he was pushing for a lynch of Richard because:

I just feel like Richard is exhibiting VI behavior.

Also, my feelings towards the wagon are influenced by the fact that my major suspect(bv) in on there along with a few other players I have questionable reads on.

Richard: summarize your play so far in the game in five words or less.

Also, why is Faraday scum?

O RLY? Must've been a pretty convincing VI since you said he was scum throughout the game until that point.

Sera's still not done attacking Richard (since he's a VI, right?) in ISO 44 and ISO 45

His extended case against BV looks forced at this point (linky especially the part about "PZ is vig" (this is stupidity, that statement was not alignment indicative) and the "bv brought up his lurker meta, but hasn't lurked" (oookay, so why is this scummy?) and finally for "attacking richard a lot".

Yes, read that last line again. Attacking richard a lot is now a scumtell (apparently).

Don't forget to combine these gems of wisdom:

-snip-

Still, I feel like bv310 is the place to be. My gut and my head are in agreement.

While bv has not done much to decrease his scumminess, I think he is more likely to be town than I originally thought.

I think both the Espeonage and Nick wagons warrant further investigation.

Seeing as the Nick wagon is based on a really strange contradictory statement he made, I will wait for him to explain himself. In the meantime, time to check up on this Espeonage guy...

He's {bv} absolute scum, Sera's head and gut are in agreement, but he's likely to be town.....

Also:

-snip-

Second point: bv wagon = Papa Zito, Anon, Seraphim, Espeonage, farside22, curiouskarmadog, RichardGHP

hmmm...if we assume I'm town, I feel the town is the majority here. Richard is VI, I think. That doesn't excuse his play but that's what I'm feeling right now. That's likely to change if he doesn't get off his lazy ass and post. Espeonage is most likely to be bussing scum...I don't get that feeling from Richard.

I'm not letting bv310 off the hook...I'm just ensuring that I'm not ignoring what else is happening in the game. Also, I've been looking at the bv wagon and a lot of the scummier players in the game are on it. This has caused me to doubt the wagon's validity.

Wait, what? This is the wagon on bv about 17 hours after Sera's post, and no votes or unvotes occurred during that period (early page 22 to first post page 23)

bv310 (7) -- Papa Zito, Anon, Seraphim, Espeonage, farside22, curiouskarmadog, RichardGHP

Hmm, looks like the same wagon to me. Wonder what changed here... (hint, it's nothing, and Sera is looking for any reason not to lynch his partner bv on Day 1)

Then throw in the "boberz post is IIoA" "oh wait it isn't" "hmm, they're still not helpful to the town and therefore boberz is still scum" that Javert pointed out recently.

tl; dr version: Sera is scum because he pushed hard on somebody he truly didn't believe was scum (Richard) and flip-flopped on bv for absolutely no reason other than he doesn't want his partner bv lynched. He also doesn't believe in boberz being scum.

Finally, in the time I've been putting this together:

/slaps both boberz and Richard

Cut that crap out. Neither of you are making decent points and you're just spamming for spams sake.

I'm done for a while, that wiped me out and I can barely see anymore. I might post something on dybeck later for being scum with bv and seraphim.

[Patrick]

Votecount

RichardGHP (7) -- Porochaz, Faraday, bv310, NickF227, Pomegranate, boberz, Albert B. Rampage
bv310 (6) -- Papa Zito, Seraphim, Espeonage, farside22, curiouskarmadog, RichardGHP
Espeonage (1) -- Ojanen
dybeck (1) -- Sando
NickF227 (2) -- Jahudo, Anon
Porochaz (1) -- Javert
Seraphim (1) -- Amished
boberz (1) -- dybeck

Not voting: Nobody
20 alive, 11 to lynch.

Deadline: April 8th, 11 pm GMT.

[Seraphim]

Aw fuck not a wall of text.

What differentiates a scum pbpa from a town pbpa? Why are all pbpa's scummy?

There is no difference. They are all scummy because it is completely unhelpful to town while still appearing as "content".

"You're talking but you're not saying anything!"

Alright, first things first. I'm going to try and avoid this becoming a wall of text. Amished, you seem to enjoy twisting my words. Your case seems convoluted and forced and relies on faulty assumptions.

I'm not going to refute ALL of your points(because that would be stupid), just the crucial ones, so let's start with the conclusion.

Sera is scum because he pushed hard on somebody he truly didn't believe was scum (Richard) and flip-flopped on bv for absolutely no reason other than he doesn't want his partner bv lynched. He also doesn't believe in boberz being scum.

The first part is important. It's the beginning of the game and someone does something completely ridiculous and stupid. Well, I want to find out why. So I vote them and pressure them. I never "pushed hard" for his lynch. In fact, I stated that I didn't want him lynched.

And I flip-flopped on bv. Well, sorta. I wanted to expand my horizons, so to speak, check out the other cases. And in the end...nothing came of it. Well, where's my vote? It's still on BV. I'm still

pushing for his lynch

. I still want him lynched, BTW. I'm still the second vote on the wagon.

You say I'm looking for reasons not to lynch bv310, but if that were true, wouldn't I be pushing any number of other juicy wagons, like the Richard wagon, or the Nick wagon, or the Espeonage wagon, or the boberz wagon, or the Porochaz wagon, or the dybeck wagon? They can't ALL be scum, after all, there's bound to be town SOMEWHERE in the there, right?

From my viewpoint, seems like you're the one trying to save bv's bacon.

[Seraphim]

Also, I forgot this, but I don't understand the last point of your conclusion at all. I don't "believe in boberz being scum"? Huh?

I'm calling it: Amished-Pom-bv310-boberz scumteam. That is all. I'll cover some more of the individual points tomorrow so that I don't dominate the page.

[farside22]

Freaking out, overreacting, losing control etc are not scum tells. Why on earth are they? either explain the rationale, show the evidence or just admitt you are wrong.
.

Show me where you have done all the above as town before in a game.

[Sando]

Very sorry guys, Easter has been much busier than I expected, I'll have more tonight or early tomorrow, promise.

[Amished]

@Sera: So if there's no difference between a scum PBPA and a town (admittedly anti-town) PBPA, how do you really justify a vote based on that? I ISO'd you pretty hard and you didn't even talk about boberz until the pbpa thing. It's because of this that I feel that you don't really think that boberz is scum since you can't differentiate between town and scum pbpa's and you're now going after somebody regardless of their alignment over one isolated incident.

As to Richard, (estimation here); I'd say most of your posts that were over one line were in relation to him for the longest time. I've documented your changes of heart over "he's doing scummy behavior, but he's a VI, but every time I've seen this behavior before it's been by scum" crap that you had throughout the day.

Besides, bv is my third most wanted dead. If I can't get you lynched, I'll judge my time left to see if I can get dybeck lynched otherwise I'll hop on bv's wagon. As there's 4 days (I was told deadline is the 8th even with me just replacing in) to deadline it's probably not possible but I want to push my top suspect first.

[Porochaz]

Back and in this game properly tomorrow or Tuesday

[Javert]

Warning: Long Post.

1.)

@Javert:

1.)

Seraphim, I agree that boberz's post was unhelpful and difficult to read. But it is clearly stating an opinion and giving commentary. When you labeled it as IIoA, you were basically calling it scummy, and that is made obvious since you quipped "thanks for confirming your alignment, scum."

My

point is that I do not find that particular post

scummy

, and I do not understand why you seem to think it is.

There is a difference between Town, Pro-Town, Anti-Town, and Scummy. Please try to differentiate between them -- if you aren't used to doing that, I ask that you humor me.

Do you believe that he {Seraphim} was being intentionally vague in trying to push for a (mis-)lynch or that he was honestly confused as to the use of the terms?

This is exactly what I have been trying to figure out.

I think at this point, Seraphim has pigeon-holed himself into defending the position “all PBPA's are scummy,” which is blatantly untrue. boberz' made short work of that statement by pointing out that a non-scummy PBPA is one done by a townsperson, which happens quite a lot. I tend to think I see PBPA's written by town more often than scum. It is when a PBPA devolves into “IIoA” that it becomes scummy, and I do not think boberz' post was “IIoa.”

I completely disagree with pretty much everything Seraphim has to say about PBPA's, but I cannot tell if it is because we are just that different on the theory behind them, or if it is because Seraphim tried to get away with an unjustified attack and has now been forced to take an extreme position to defend that attack.

My problem is that Seraphim

must

understand the difference between anti-town and scummy precisely because he has recently been labeling RichardGHP as a “VI,” which is essentially “not helpful, but not necessarily scum.” The fact that he is willing to draw this distinction for RichardGHP but not boberz is really cutting at me. Hence, I think Seraphim is purposefully ignoring this distinction when it comes to boberz' post.

2.)

An inconsistency with Seraphim that I just noticed:

Anon's recap post is terrible.

Richard is not an 'easy target'

, Richard is a player with strange anti-town behavior that needs more consideration and more pressure. He's been backpedalling and doing all sorts of scummy stuff. Not to mention jumping on a wagon based on the RVS based on this craplogic is very bad. Very bad. I wouldn't doubt that if Andrew is scum, Anon is scum with him.

bv had also been attacking Richard a lot, a large wagon that has achieved a lot of popularity from the beginning of the game.

Easy to jump onto. Easy to get off of if the popularity declines.

However, he does not jump onto the wagon until I pressure him to. Sounds like coasting to me.

Please explain.

3.)

I am also a bit disturbed how one of Seraphim's criteria for being scum appears to be attacking the “popular” wagons, while at the same time Seraphim says in Post 538 that if he had three votes, he would vote for RichardGHP, bv310, and Espeonage – who were all the most popular wagons at that point in the game (with NickF227 being fourth).

4.)

I think a perfectly plausible scumteam would actually be RichardGHP and Seraphim – Seraphim seems to go out of his way to give RichardGHP small pushes in order to get the wagon off of himself, while at the same time constantly giving himself the option of switching his vote to RichardGHP.

Seraphim's posts on the surface attack both RichardGHP and bv310. However, on the whole, when Seraphim talks about RichardGHP it is to ask RichardGHP to post more content (just isolate his posts – you may be surprised). When he talks about bv310, it is more commonly to attack him.

As I said above, I also find it strange how Seraphim recognizes the difference between anti-town and scummy when he talks about RichardGHP, but he does not seem to recognize that same distinction when talking about boberz' PBPA post.

~

I have to admit, Seraphim was originally on my short list of people I thought were Town, but after reading his posts critically, he no longer has that status.

Unvote: Porochaz, Vote: Seraphim

.

[boberz]

Freaking out, overreacting, losing control etc are not scum tells. Why on earth are they? either explain the rationale, show the evidence or just admitt you are wrong.
.

Show me where you have done all the above as town before in a game.

Are you actually serious??? You are being really silly.

I certainyl didnt answer for him here I posted after him. And I only wrote what he did in plain english I did not add anything.

It was 7 I posted once in day 1 also. Either way not important, I have not been around that long I consider my activity level fairly high.

How is me defending somebody who you clearly cant understand a scumtell???

I really think you are being silly now poro. you were the one asking for what he meant. You cant understand when he posts, when I do you moan that I shouldnt answer for him. Now to remind myself of initial impressions and match them

There are loads of examples, this was in pyp4 and was actually commented upon at the time.

[boberz]

Wow this Seraphim case is exactly what I was thinking, but I was worried that there was an element of OMGUS in my thinking.

But surely this case on Seraphim is largely reliant on Richard being scum, as richard has more support, has made more mistakes and is a better policy lynch. Surely it is better to go for him first?

[RichardGHP]

Just to note, continually referring to someone as scum in second-person form ("You are scum, after all", "Alot of scum do this, you especially") is a

VERY

scum-like action and town don't really do it at all. It's like boberz is so hellbent on a mislynch on me. I know for a fact that I am town, so logically I have slight suspicion of everyone on my wagon - but my boberz suspicion is legitimate and valid.

I am now officially calling a scum read on boberz.

Unvote Vote boberz

NB TO ANYONE NOT READING THIS PROPERLY I AM ADMITTING TO OMGUSING.

/sarcasm

[RichardGHP]

Also, it's FAR too late in the game to be policy lynching. That's a start-of-Day-1 thing.

[Javert]

But surely this case on Seraphim is largely reliant on Richard being scum, as richard has more support, has made more mistakes and is a better policy lynch. Surely it is better to go for him first?

I think the pairing is a

plausible

one, but not a necessary one. Seraphim is scummy independent of whether RichardGHP is scum.

[boberz]

Just to note, continually referring to someone as scum in second-person form ("You are scum, after all", "Alot of scum do this, you especially") is a

VERY

scum-like action and town don't really do it at all. It's like boberz is so hellbent on a mislynch on me. I know for a fact that I am town, so logically I have slight suspicion of everyone on my wagon - but my boberz suspicion is legitimate and valid.

I am now officially calling a scum read on boberz.

Unvote Vote boberz

NB TO ANYONE NOT READING THIS PROPERLY I AM ADMITTING TO OMGUSING.

/sarcasm

Why is calling you scum a scummy thing to do?

Why am I scum, you didnt actually explain this?

I am calling OMGUS

[boberz]

BTW I dont like the term VI being thrown around so much because VI can be scum or town, so it is not actually a read. That said, I dont think I can be the worst VI you have seen, because richard is in the game.

[boberz]

Also, it's FAR too late in the game to be policy lynching. That's a start-of-Day-1 thing.

You cannot accuse me of policy lynching (which I am not) at the same time you are accusing me of calling you scum too much. It ocntradicts.

Are you saying we should policy lynch at the start of day 1??????????

[Jahudo]

@boberz:

I want to see more from Jack because I dont understand what he has been doing.

Jack's not in this game. Who are you talking about?

@Papa Zito, Seraphim, Espeonage, farside22, curiouskarmadog
Can you show examples of what BV's "scum slip and fakeclaim" posts would look like if they got the same information across but were made by town? (The posts are where he doesn't consider the possibility of PZ as town, and where he says he's a magnet for VT roles.) I currently feel that these two posts are more about him having trouble getting his meaning across than they are slips and fakeclaims. So I believe his defense and don't see the rationale for a BV lynch.

--------------------
RICHARD NO LONGER A SUSPECT:

I no longer find Richard suspicious. My main point was I thought his gambit was fake, based on his reaction analysis. Looking at it again I can see his perspective of finding Seraphim and Faraday's reactions as different. I can see how he saw Faraday as looking to vote first and possibly not even ask questions, whereas Seraphim was voting and trying to get Richard's defense before signing off on a lynch.

His lurking doesn't look like a scum tell in his situation. I think it makes more sense that his V/LA was real.

His OMGUS on boberz is not helpful, but that also means he's not pushing BV's wagon to save himself. So he doesn't look opportunistic now.
--------------------

NEW POMEGRANATE CASE:

1) She hasn't expanded any of her suspicions since page 14, which was the last time she called someone scummy or said she'd vote for them:

Willing to vote for: BV, Richard, or Espeonage. After that, Anon.

These are based on about one point per person. I think it would be easier for scum to give stances earlier in the game, when its okay to only have minor points build up your case. Her inactivity (a valid non-tell) is not an excuse for not developing any reads with all this new information.

2) She's been asking questions but not giving analysis after the questions have been answered. She hasn't given follow-ups or pursued any leads on recent events. The little questions and comments look like a way for her to stay pro-active without ever finding anything. Examples of this are:
* Post 426 she asks ABR why he initially said he'd be up for any lynch but his, which he changes when he specifically wants to vote BV. Her question doesn't explain her opinion on him, and she has dropped that issue since then.
* Post 566 she asks Javert if his unvoting of Richard means he no longer finds Richard scummy. Again after her question is responded to, she drop the inquiry without giving an opinion on whether or not she found Javert's actions suspicious.
* Post 567 she asks Zito why he speculated BV might be town, when he was voting for BV.

Without Point #1, I wouldn't have a problem with Point #2 because I could believe she was letting go of dead end inquiries in favor of the good ones she was still pursuing. But Point #1 is about her not having any ongoing cases. She's been sitting on small, stale tells without finding anything new.

Which becomes a good scum strategy for day 1 because we're nearing deadline and she can safely push either Richard or BV without having had to make a case for them over the course of the day.

The scums: [Nick, Espy, Pom]
I don't want to compromise on a Richard or BV lynch.

[Seraphim]

Alright, I'm afraid this is going to be a long post so bear with me.

Does anyone else see the dichotomy here? Sera doesn't want Richard lynched, but does want more votes on him (???) and Richard said he was pulling a gambit which Sera says scum are more likely to do (so why doesn't Sera want Richard lynched again?)

I didn't want Richard lynched because it was page 10(IIRC), two or three days into Day 1. At this point, I thought there was a high likelyhood of him being scum but I wasn't going to push on him being scum.

Ooooookaaaaay, Richard does deserve to be lynched.

How do you get this from the post quoted above it?

About my FoS post: I was sick and tired of the players who were using their votes to hunt lurkers when there were other players to vote and discuss. I'm not saying lurking is a good thing but focusing on inactive players is the mod's job especially on Day 1. We need to hunt scum and we're not going to be able to hunt scum among the players who haven't posted yet. We are uncapable of hunting what doesn't exist.

And yes, I confuse anti-town and scummy. I will try to be more succinct in the future.

Amished, do you think it's possible for players to go after more than one player at a time? You apparently don't think so as when I try to multitask, I get attacked.

He's {bv} absolute scum, Sera's head and gut are in agreement, but he's likely to be town.....

Read the original quote again. Nice misrep, BTW. I said he was MORE LIKELY. Not LIKELY. I said MORE LIKELY. Big difference does that modifier make.

Yes, read that last line again. Attacking richard a lot is now a scumtell (apparently).

I never said it was a scumtell. But last I checked, getting onto a easy wagon was when pressured to tends to be done by scum more than town.

o if there's no difference between a scum PBPA and a town (admittedly anti-town) PBPA, how do you really justify a vote based on that?

I'm, ah, not voting boberz. There are other points to make against him as well...you seem to have completely missed where he tries to derail the bv lynch because he made a "townslip".

I ISO'd you pretty hard and you didn't even talk about boberz until the pbpa thing. It's because of this that I feel that you don't really think that boberz is scum since you can't differentiate between town and scum pbpa's and you're now going after somebody regardless of their alignment over one isolated incident.

I have other reasons to attack boberz besides the PBPA, that's just the icing on the cake. Since you've ISO'd me, I suggest you ISO Boberz and you should find what pinged my scumdar originally.

As to Richard, (estimation here); I'd say most of your posts that were over one line were in relation to him for the longest time. I've documented your changes of heart over "he's doing scummy behavior, but he's a VI, but every time I've seen this behavior before it's been by scum" crap that you had throughout the day.

I've been keeping track of him. He's scummy, he's anti-town, he's whatever. He warrants suspicion. Just like Espeonage and Nick, and definitely like bv310, who is scum.

@Javert

I'm sorry that we disagree on theory, but I have never found PBPAs helpful and pro-town. The fact that boberz did one increases my suspicion on him for reasons I have already stated. He's scum because he tried to derail the bv310 wagon by saying he made a "townslip". The PBPA, as stated earlier, is

not the crux of my argument against him

but just an extension of it.

As to your second point...the longer a wagon exists and the more popularity it gains, the more likely that scum will jump on it. That's all I can really say.