Open 208 - Fire & Ice Mafia >Over!<

[Nikanor]

Vote Count 2.12

Nachomamma8 (3)

- Kthxbye, DTMaster, XScorpion

XScorpion (3)

- Nachomamma8, Scott Brosius, TheLoneWolf

Scott Brosius (2)

- RedCoyote, Mindgamer

RedCoyote (1)

- Locke Lamora

Not Voting (0)

With nine players alive, five votes are required to lynch.

Deadline falls on Monday April 12 at 14:58 UTC.

Locke Lamora is being replaced.

[Nachomamma8]

RedCoyote, nothing to say about me vs. XScorpion?

[Kthxbye]

Hey ya'll. I'm very VERY sorry about needing proding and not being around lately. I'm TDY at Germany and have very limited access to a computer. TDY is military talk for being somewhere I'm not stationed.

I sadly think it would be fairest to you all if I replaced out. Germany is so much fricken fun, I don't think I'll be around at all for the next 20+ days. I'm very sorry.

Mod: I need replaced, sorry.

I'm sorry Mod, please don't hold this against me.

[Nikanor]

Vote Count 2.13

Nachomamma8 (3)

- Kthxbye, DTMaster, XScorpion

XScorpion (3)

- Nachomamma8, Scott Brosius, TheLoneWolf

Scott Brosius (2)

- RedCoyote, Mindgamer

RedCoyote (1)

- Locke Lamora

Not Voting (0)

With nine players alive, five votes are required to lynch.

Deadline falls on Monday April 12 at 14:58 UTC.

Locke Lamora is being replaced.

Kthxbye is being replaced. >:C

[RedCoyote]

RedCoyote, nothing to say about me vs. XScorpion?

Yeah. I don't really get the XScorp hate. I realize he is bandwagon hopping, but this isn't much better than his D1 play. I can see the case on you, because that does seem like you are taking two contradicting positions.

I don't have much else to contribute because at this point I am too sure of my vote. I meant it when I said there just aren't many logical candidates out there for fire mafia, and to me, Scott is really the only one. Call me tunnelled, but unless someone can point to a better dana partner (who isn't me XD), then I've found him.

[Mindgamer]

*gets hit by three prods*

Nachomamma8
@Everyone: Top fire read, top two Ice reads. I've already given mine.

Scott Brosius is my top suspect and he seems to be 'fire' so he's my top fire read.
XScorpion is also becoming more and more scummy (I already thought this before the XScorpion wagon begun, btw. I read but I just don't have the time to make a post). He started this game with very weird behaviour, stating he played no two games the same way. But his behaviour has reverted back to 'normal' again. When I take a closer look the goofyness stopped after Night 1. Is he annoyed now that he lost his scumpartner?

ISO 19
You might want to take a read of Open 205 and see if my play thus far is much different.

ISO 38
and LoneWolf for trying to convince town to go along with an anti-town plan on voting.

Open 205 started out with a plan from Mykonian. The plan was very anti-town and he was bandwagon'd for it. However, at the end of the game Mykonian was revealed to be a townie. XScorpion was a player in this game and he remembers this game, as proven by his reference. How can TheLoneWolf possible be XScorpion's TOP ice read for an anti-town plan alone when just a few weeks ago it was proven that bad plans aren't necessarily scummy?

ISO 32 is still crap btw.

----------

Well, that post took most of the time I had and I haven't even responded to anything beyond page 22 yet. I'll try to make another post later today.

[Nikanor]

By the way, if anyone knows anyone else who can replace in, that would be mighty swell. Most of my usual contacts are either full on games or in this game already.

[Mindgamer]

Couldn't find the time do do another post. However, I'd like to point out that deadline is in four days. It's time to get serious about our votes.

I see that Nachomamma8, XScorpion and Scott Brosius are our most 'popular' candidates for today. I support a XScorpion/Scott Brosius lynch, and I don't support a Nachomamma8 lynch. Reasoning on Nachomamma8 and other will be posted tomorrow.

Everyone, post your lynchlist before we have to resort to a last-minute convenience lynch.

[Nikanor]

Vote Count 2.14

Nachomamma8 (3)

- Kthxbye, DTMaster, XScorpion

XScorpion (3)

- Nachomamma8, Scott Brosius, TheLoneWolf

Scott Brosius (2)

- RedCoyote, Mindgamer

RedCoyote (1)

- Locke Lamora

Not Voting (0)

With nine players alive, five votes are required to lynch.

Deadline falls on Monday April 12 at 14:58 UTC.

Locke Lamora and Kthxbye are being replaced.

A deadline extension

might

be given, depending on whether or not I can find replacements by the tenth.

[RedCoyote]

I really would have us wait for the replacements (unless we can agree to a Scott lynch).

I would begrudgingly vote Nacho at the last second if the toss-up was between him and XScorp, but I feel very strongly about a Scott lynch. I know I sound like a broken record, but that's because I don't usually feel this sure about a lynch.

[Nikanor]

Fishythefish replaces Locke Lamora. Thank you many times!

[Fishythefish]

Hi all.
I'll be catching up over the next couple of days.
Fishy

[XScorpion]

But his behaviour has reverted back to 'normal' again. When I take a closer look the goofyness stopped after Night 1. Is he annoyed now that he lost his scumpartner?

Look harder. The "goofyness" stopped after on day 1, as I started Dana's wagon.

How can TheLoneWolf possible be XScorpion's TOP ice read for an anti-town plan alone when just a few weeks ago it was proven that bad plans aren't necessarily scummy?

No one ever said I was capable of learning things.

Any defense of Nacho will have to give a very good explanation of why Lynch All Liars is a bad strategy, and in my experience, LAL ALWAYS nails scum.

[XScorpion]

@Everyone voting for me: Explain why Nacho isn't a scum, despite the fact that he is a liar.

[Scott Brosius]

Alright, do you care to make a case for someone as fire besides me?

At this point no, I am going for the scummiest all around player. My case on you has been outlined ad nauseum but my vote is served better on someone who is scummier than you. Your extreme baseless confidence is peculiar.

Yeah. I don't really get the XScorp hate. I realize he is bandwagon hopping, but this isn't much better than his D1 play.

Because it isnt much better than his D1 play doesn't make it excusable. With a reread I'm getting the feeling XScorp is more of a lazy townie than scum


I really don't like this comment

...and I become more confident in my vote. See who doesn't read the thread, instead opts to lynch someone suspicious of him.

You are at L-2, this seems like an overreaction.

Interested to hear what the replacement has to say.

Unvote

[Fishythefish]

With only a few days until deadline, I’m going to focus on the three main lynch candidates. Here are my very tenuous first impressions of those:
- I have no interest in an xscorpion lynch.
- I have no real problems with Scott’s play until very recently. Recently, he’s been wagonhopping in a bad way:
1. Hops RC-LL(me) to “try to stimulate participation”
2. Unvotes when LL replaces out, which is fair enough, but doesn’t return to RC. Why not?
3. Unvotes when I replace in. Why?
These all feel like his vote was in somewhere he didn’t want it any more, and he used a convenient excuse to move it. The last one looks like he's gearing up to move on nacho.
- DTM’s case on nachomamma is ok. It would be quite surprising for somebody with the kind of townread nacho seemed to have on Scorpion (strong language, multiple posts) to forget about it, and the change of read on Scorpion is bad in itself (it’s for really innocuous play on RC). nacho’s defence of DLA seems to be trying much harder than his scumhunting, which is bad.
@DTM:
Your reason for your assessment of Scorp’s play on DLA changing (or maybe just being formed) is “rereads and reveals”. I can well understand rereads, but how did the reveals change your take on that situation?

I’m not massively convinced by any of these cases. Right now, I think I’d vote Scotty, but it’s a close thing between him and nacho. I’ll do more rereading tomorrow – I’m nowhere near totally caught up. This game is a good read, but not an easy one.

In case anybody's wondering, the scummiest single post in the game so far is comfortably RC's 474.

unvote

[Scott Brosius]

With a reread I'm getting the feeling XScorp is more of a lazy townie than scum

^^ Reason for my unvote. I always keep my votes at the end of my post.

[Nikanor]

Vote Count 2.15

Nachomamma8 (3)

- Kthxbye, DTMaster, XScorpion

XScorpion (2)

- Nachomamma8, TheLoneWolf

Scott Brosius (2)

- RedCoyote, Mindgamer

Not Voting (2)

- Scott Brosius, Fishythefish

With nine players alive, five votes are required to lynch.

Deadline falls on Monday April 12 at 14:58 UTC.

DTMaster has been prodded.

Kthxbye is being replaced.

[TheLoneWolf]

I can see DTM's case on Nacho, it is pretty well reasoned and thought out.

But Xscorp is on that wagon, basically screaming "LYNCH ALL LIARS LYNCH ALL LIARS!" which is a huge exaggeration.

LaL is a policy (ftr I disagree that it ALWAYS hits scum, I could link to a few games my brother is in but they're on going.) that usually involves Power Roles lying about various things, e.g. "fake guilties, claiming a scan on someone, fakeclaiming doctor, etc."

Nacho changing his read on Xscorp from town to scum is something I have seen many a time from town. I don't expect and I hope that townie doesn't get tunnel visioned and keep their D1 reads all game. This usually happens and is why new replacements can be good (fresh unbiased look at the game that isn't bogged down by D1 reads).

That said I'm still down for a Scotty lynch if it is needed to rival the Nacho wagon.

Unvote: Scorp

Vote: Scotty

[Fishythefish]

It's not changing a read I have a problem with. It's forgetting a read - particularly what seemed to be quite a serious read - that surprises me.

Yes, actually. There is one good point on xscorp. His nacho vote sucks. LaL is not a policy that's about people forgetting having said something.

@Scott: thanks for clarification. Who do you think is scum?

On another reread, I've changed my mind. Nacho is the answer today.
- His change of read on Scorpion is, in itself, weird. Scorpion's vote on RC was not at all scummier than his other votes in the game.
- When confronted with this change of read, he denied it. I think he did this because he'd forgotten about the original townread, which is scummy. But also, he didn't bother to try hard to remember his read. He assumed that DTM's original quotes - which

didn't

actually give a full picture of Nacho's read on Scorp - were the full picture. So he thought he could deny a townread on Scorp. He didn't bother to think "what did I actually think about Scorp" - because all he cared about was what was deniable. This, more than forgetting the read, really makes me think Nacho is scum.
- There's also the point that his defence of DLA looks like he's trying so much harder than his scumhunting.

vote: Nacho

L-1.

[RedCoyote]

Hey Fishy, good to see you.

This might help you with some of the first 11 pages.

As far as the post you called me out on, all I can say is that, at this point, I don't see anyone who can logically fit into the fire scum slot except for Scott. I've asked the same question over and over again since the beginning of the day, and no one else can really come up with a strong substitute fire scum candidate except for me (which is no good, lol). I'm pretty much at the point that I would be willing to trade my life for his.

I think we could pick worse lynches than Nacho, but I feel like it's less of a sure thing.

A few of things that hurt this game are the fact that our "clear" (our Doctor claim) checked out of this game in late D1, and, even after being replaced, hasn't made much of an impact. We've not really been able to bounce anything off an important slot, one that we know has pure townie motivations.

DTM has been gone for a while now, and you just came in for Locke.

[Fishythefish]

I so already replied to this.

Good to see you again too RC

I think the statement that you'd do a one-for-one trade with an unconfirmed player is an incredibly strong one, and looks more like scum pretending to be totally selfless than genuine selflessness. Anyhow, I need to check out your Fire PoE, which is something I haven't looked much into yet.

It's certainly unfortunate that our confirmed town is not here. However, any argument that can be advanced by confirmed town can be advanced by anyone else, so there's no reason it should hurt us that much.

[Nachomamma8]

- His change of read on Scorpion is, in itself, weird. Scorpion's vote on RC was not at all scummier than his other votes in the game.

First of all, just because you disagree with my suspicions doesn't make them invalid. And I'm not sure I fully understand why my flipflopping on Scorpion is weird. I called him a town read in exactly

1

post, which just happened to be my first. I also had to do some rereading yesterday (with the night's results revealing a scum flip of my top town read and a town flip of my top scum flip), which changed my opinions on certain player slots considerably, Scorpion included.

- When confronted with this change of read, he denied it. I think he did this because he'd forgotten about the original townread, which is scummy. But also, he didn't bother to try hard to remember his read. He assumed that DTM's original quotes - which didn't actually give a full picture of Nacho's read on Scorp - were the full picture. So he thought he could deny a townread on Scorp. He didn't bother to think "what did I actually think about Scorp" - because all he cared about was what was deniable. This, more than forgetting the read, really makes me think Nacho is scum.

Honestly, I denied it because it was an attack on a known townie, and this attack came from DTM, who has been bothering me the entire day by either misunderstanding or misrepresenting constantly. Yes, it's anti-town and not good play to immediately disregard the case, but I didn't remember that I called XScorp town in the beginning and I was pretty sure DTM was just misrepresenting me again.

- There's also the point that his defence of DLA looks like he's trying so much harder than his scumhunting.

Day 1, I find townhunting to be more help than scumhunting, which results in defending of town reads. So, I defend my town reads against who I think are opportunistic scum. Unfortunately, I'm not always right...

[Fishythefish]

I take your point about the context of your change of reads.

What was it about Scorp's vote on RC you felt was particularly bad, that changed your read on him?

I struggle to believe that a town player wouldn't check what they'd said and thought about a player when somebody else made a point about it.

Yes. Bad townreads are not that scummy. Whether or not I believe your townread is something that needs more thought. On first read, it felt a bit strange, but it's always difficult when you know that the person being discussed was scum.

Things to do:
Check out RC's Fire PoE
Check out Nacho's DLA defense.

[Nachomamma8]

What was it about Scorp's vote on RC you felt was particularly bad, that changed your read on him?

The fact that it was following a scummy pattern that he started day 1 set off alarms for me. He voted someone who ended up being fire, and just left his vote there. Then, there's his early-interactions with DLA, where DLA says things like "XScorpion would be a horrible addition to a scumteam", but doesn't call him scummy. These point to him being Ice, for the most part.

So, when he waltzes in and votes RC with no effort at all to find anyone even a tiny chance of being Ice scum, that was the last straw, so to speak.