Karma Mafia (Game Over!)

[Patrick]

Votecount

Espeonage (5) -- Faraday, NickF227, Jahudo, farside22, Seraphim
Seraphim (5) -- boberz, Javert, Albert B. Rampage, Espeonage, dybeck
dybeck (1) -- Amished

Not voting: Ojanen, curiouskarmadog
13 alive, 7 to lynch.

Deadline: 26th of May

[boberz]

I still dont like people, without reasoning, saying they would be happy with my lynch or I look slightly scummy or other things like this. It gives me no oppourtunity to improve, it gives me no chance to answer the points, but it doesmean every one else feels they can also legitimately get away with accusing me of nothing.

I did contribute to the Sera case as it was building rather than just hopping on. I admitt I lurked a bit in the middle but it was more or less a VLA.

the tone of Esp's defence seems towny to me, but the 'why should I scumhunt defence' is crap! and horrible and a disgrace to all humankind.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Go dybek! Give that smartass Sera a wedgie and shove him into a locker.

[farside22]

I know I have a promise of a read of people to finish up today.
Sorry I got caught up in a few other games.

[Javert]

Seraphim, why don't you “buy” Espeonage's claim?

[Amished]

@Javert: Cause Sera and Espy are scumz together?

In any case, I'll be waiting with baited breath for this response.

[curiouskarmadog]

interesting, a 5/5 dueling wagon.

1605, Esp is in the lead at 4/3 (esp/sera)

1617, Esp ties it up 4/4 (saving self disguised as a case?)

1624, dybeck places first vote on Fara

1625, Sera joins wagon.

1626, dybeck doesnt think esp is scum, but would consider voting Sera.

1644, after asking for Jahudo to "convince" him about the Esp case, Sera votes Esp 5/4, also asks for claim (Esp claims VT)

1649, Dybeck ties it up with a vote on Sera. Dybeck claims there is no real case on Esp (ignores jahudo?) and says Sera is just in survival mode (ignores that Esp appears to be in survival mode too)

there seems to be a lot of positioning going on, I am content letting it play out a little more...we got plenty of time before we need to worry about a lynch, and I have a feeling there is a ton more information to be pinched from today.

@sera, you asked for Esp's claim at -2. Do you feel like you should claim now you are at -2? why or why not? I am also curious about how you are going to answer javert's question.

@Esp, you claimed VT..the mod put a VT role in the beginning of the game. was there anything added to your PM that you can share...i am not asking you to quote anything(additional sentence(s)?), just a yes or no. Also i know your vote is on Sera, can you please explain to me again why you feel he is scum...

@dybeck, how is sera in survival mode and Esp isnt? Jahudo as put forth a case against esp but you are saying there is no real case against him....how is your case against Sera better than Jahudo's against Esp?

@Amished, do you think town lists are good, why or why not? (follow up question pending).

[Amished]

If they're done stupidly, then yes; town lists are a bad reason. (I know where you're going with this, but whatever)

[Seraphim]

Seraphim, why don't you “buy” Espeonage's claim?

A vanilla town claim was not what I reading from him at all. I thought he might have been VI doctor if anything. Usually vanilla town aren't cautious about how they wheel and deal, even if they're lurking it out. Esp's play has been very muted, similar to that of a power role/scum trying to avoid attention or at least not giving a shit. I don't get that vibe from Esp's play at all.

Do you feel like you should claim now you are at -2? why or why not?

I'm willing to claim. L-2 to L-1 is general good claiming range unless there's a pressing reason to claim or not to claim. No one has asked for it.

Also, I have a question for Esp: what do you think about Amished?

[Amished]

@Sera: Do you have any previous experience with Espy?

[Jahudo]

I still dont like people, without reasoning, saying they would be happy with my lynch or I look slightly scummy or other things like this. It gives me no oppourtunity to improve, it gives me no chance to answer the points, but it doesmean every one else feels they can also legitimately get away with accusing me of nothing.

I was concerned yesterday when you hadn't (by that time) given a read on Sando or placed a vote.

And you already gave your defense, that you were V/LA and didn't see any case. That could explain things, but I think not having a Sando read makes you a possible Sando-buddy regardless of the circumstances.

@boberz: did you vote BV on day 1 to make sure we didn't get a no lynch? Was there no other reason? Why did you switch back to Richard when there wasn't that much time in the day?

[dybeck]

@dybeck, how is sera in survival mode and Esp isnt? Jahudo as put forth a case against esp but you are saying there is no real case against him....how is your case against Sera better than Jahudo's against Esp?

It's not so much about the cases that have been presented - I just don't personally really see much of the scum about Esp's posts so far.

[Seraphim]

@Sera: Do you have any previous experience with Espy?

No, I do not. It's my general idea of a town player. I might be more inclined to think he was town and more of a VI if he wasn't so damn cautious. Look at Nick and Richard. Richard was whiny, sure, and Nick is annoying, but they are obviously so. Esp is not doing this. I'm not just willing to write him off as a VI after extensive reading and Jahudo's case.

[Amished]

Have you thought that it could be a personality difference? Especially after ckd (and others, iirc) making a fuss about Richard's playstyle early on? (which Richard fulfilled this game)

[NickF227]

I don't buy Espy's claim at all, mostly because he said it was his role was 'Vanilla Townie', even though earlier in the game by a townie death, it showed the role was named 'Villager' here. =/

[Amished]

I don't buy Espy's claim at all, mostly because he said it was his role was 'Vanilla Townie', even though earlier in the game by a townie death, it showed the role was named 'Villager' here. =/

I know you're a "townsperson" and all, but everyone does claim "vanilla" if they're a powerless person.

Sera's response is slightly more than disappointing.

[Seraphim]

Have you thought that it could be a personality difference? Especially after ckd (and others, iirc) making a fuss about Richard's playstyle early on? (which Richard fulfilled this game)

I, in fact, looked over one of his past games.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13390

It's very enlightening. I urge everyone to take a look. Here, he seems much more forthright. Sure, it could just be the game in general and I tend to take meta with a grain of salt but the difference between that game and this one is somewhat disconcerting.

[Espeonage]

In response to CKDs question. Yes my role PM differed slightly in the last sentance.

[Seraphim]

Without quoting your role PM, what did the difference deal with?

[Espeonage]

confirming.

[boberz]

I still dont like people, without reasoning, saying they would be happy with my lynch or I look slightly scummy or other things like this. It gives me no oppourtunity to improve, it gives me no chance to answer the points, but it doesmean every one else feels they can also legitimately get away with accusing me of nothing.

I was concerned yesterday when you hadn't (by that time) given a read on Sando or placed a vote.

And you already gave your defense, that you were V/LA and didn't see any case. That could explain things, but I think not having a Sando read makes you a possible Sando-buddy regardless of the circumstances.

@boberz: did you vote BV on day 1 to make sure we didn't get a no lynch? Was there no other reason? Why did you switch back to Richard when there wasn't that much time in the day?

I accept now that you have had a small case of sorts on me better than most of the players who seem to be suspicious of me for no given reason.

I voted bv because I was worried about deadline and my potentially being away from the cpu. I was then convinced by bv's lack of understanding about a roleclaim which turned out to be false but unvoted. I then knew I could be online and hoped that a last minute counterwagon would com back to Richard who had a lways been my favoured lynch. My voting him was an attempt to tempt any other deserters into voting Richard.

[boberz]

I still dont like people, without reasoning, saying they would be happy with my lynch or I look slightly scummy or other things like this. It gives me no oppourtunity to improve, it gives me no chance to answer the points, but it doesmean every one else feels they can also legitimately get away with accusing me of nothing.

I was concerned yesterday when you hadn't (by that time) given a read on Sando or placed a vote.

And you already gave your defense, that you were V/LA and didn't see any case. That could explain things, but I think not having a Sando read makes you a possible Sando-buddy regardless of the circumstances.

@boberz: did you vote BV on day 1 to make sure we didn't get a no lynch? Was there no other reason? Why did you switch back to Richard when there wasn't that much time in the day?

I accept now that you have had a small case of sorts on me better than most of the players who seem to be suspicious of me for no given reason.

I voted bv because I was worried about deadline and my potentially being away from the cpu. I was then convinced by bv's lack of understanding about a roleclaim which turned out to be false but unvoted. I then knew I could be online and hoped that a last minute counterwagon would com back to Richard who had a lways been my favoured lynch. My voting him was an attempt to tempt any other deserters into voting Richard.

[dybeck]

I don't buy Espy's claim at all, mostly because he said it was his role was 'Vanilla Townie', even though earlier in the game by a townie death, it showed the role was named 'Villager' here. =/

@NickF227 - Interesting to not that you're such a stickler for correct terminology - and that anything else is grounds for a wagon.

Of course, I am me and I know I'm a villager, so...yeah.

So now we know what a stickler you are for correct terminology, I ask again: Why the unprompted claim?

Oh, sorry, what? That wasn't a claim? You just used an equivalent word that means the same thing? But surely that's just what Espeonage did?

This is all very confusing, Nick. I wonder if you could shed some light on the matter.

[Ojanen]

Prodded.. Will post today.
(darn busy at a competition for the past days, have to get a prize or otherwise don't have the money to travel back home)

[curiouskarmadog]

I believe Espy is telling the truth....his wagon is bad

I also dont think that Sera is the lynch today, but less so than Espy.

@dybeck, you didnt answer everything I asked...how is Sera is survival mode but Espy isnt? also, you have gone from,

There's no real case on Espeonage,

to

It's not so much about the cases that have been presented - I just don't personally really see much of the scum about Esp's posts so far.

What part of Jahudo case do you not agree with?

Just so that you know, I am trying to figure out if you are trying to buy townie points buy defending a doomed townie (espy) or if you really believe what you are saying.

@Jahudo, I think Espy is telling the truth about his claim. Your thoughts about that?