Karma Mafia (Game Over!)

[Jahudo]

@Jahudo, I think Espy is telling the truth about his claim. Your thoughts about that?

I'd like to see if Espy has anything to say about his playstyle here compared to that game Sera linked.

At a quick glance I don't think the linked game is comparable to this one, and I don't think everyone plays more open just because they are VT. But the claim doesn't make me think he's more likely to be town, and I still don't see how Espy's play here is normal for him.

---------------------------

I voted bv because I was worried about deadline and my potentially being away from the cpu.

That checks out.

I was then convinced by bv's lack of understanding about a roleclaim which turned out to be false but unvoted.

And your unvoted followed his claim, so that checks out. But there was only 2 days until deadline and with your vote the Richard wagon had 5 votes. They needed 6 votes in 2 days. (not impossible, but starting to be a stretch)

I then knew I could be online and hoped that a last minute counterwagon would com back to Richard who had a lways been my favoured lynch.

And you were online the morning he was lynched, so that wasn't a lie.

My voting him was an attempt to tempt any other deserters into voting Richard.

But the only evidence you had was that his claim sounded genuine. It was just your gut reaction, and everyone was going to have their own reactions and probably not be persuaded otherwise.

It didn't look like you were trying to stop the wagon, but be okay if other people saw it the same way on their own. So why push the other wagon so weakly if you thought BV was town?

[Albert B. Rampage]

Nick just became more suspicious than bobberz all of a sudden.

[dybeck]

It's not so much about the cases that have been presented - I just don't personally really see much of the scum about Esp's posts so far.

What part of Jahudo case do you not agree with?

All of Jahudo's points are correct as far as I can see - but I just can't piece them together in such a way that any of them are particularly scummy...

Just so that you know, I am trying to figure out if you are trying to buy townie points buy defending a doomed townie (espy) or if you really believe what you are saying.

I disagree with the suggestion that Espeonage is doomed. But noted anyway.

[Patrick]

Votecount

Espeonage (5) -- Faraday, NickF227, Jahudo, farside22, Seraphim
Seraphim (5) -- boberz, Javert, Albert B. Rampage, Espeonage, dybeck
dybeck (1) -- Amished

Not voting: Ojanen, curiouskarmadog
13 alive, 7 to lynch.

Deadline: 26th of May

[Ojanen]

My slight town vibe from Nick based on an offhand villager namedropping has had its bottom fall because from his latest posts I don't see it as necessarily as offhand as I used to.

[Ojanen]

@OJ (I think): After actually getting a reasonable explanation for the two night kill; I abandoned my thought that there was an SK out there. From there, I could use connective tells as a reliable source of finding scum since all evidence points to only one scumteam anyways.

This is not how you said you operate earlier when criticized for not looking at connections. It's actually blatantly contradictory to this answer:

iii) I have no idea if dybeck is scum with anybody. The only time I ever see connective tells is when it's obvious that one scum is attacking one person for something, but giving a pass to a scummate for doing the same thing (lurking, or active lurking is an obvious example). I've always been better off with scumhunting by finding solo-"tells" than connections; so I just make a case based on the person that I'm attacking. It both yields me better results and doesn't allow for scum distancing or buddying which I have a hard time discerning.

Also, if you read my case; what I felt to be my strongest point against dybeck is a solo tell (inside information). Power roles (especially after getting scum d1) would be stupid to give scum any type of power if it works the way that dybeck said it probably would. We'd be one up on them and can then just work on getting more scum without having to rely on desperate measures of giving a scummer any more power than they have.

If you read my post it was also the point I thought was totally peculiar and sucked.
Besides, even if you think it would somehow be totally above dybeck's mental capacities to invent that speculation of how Karma works, according to your own logic of power roles consciously not using strong modes there would be two parties with the knowledge: scum and powerroles. Yet you use this point in your case to say that there is no way you see dybeck not being scum after that comment because of inside info. Illogical.

I'm gonna, gasp, do something finally with my vote, namely

vote: Amished

He bothers me partly because of meta.
Amished is reminding me of himself as scum in mini quick and dirty where I was his partner until he replaced out. A bit all over the place, easy contradictions but fearless play giving people regardless some townvibes.
More tomorrow.

[Ojanen]

And I'd like Amished to answer the rest of the questions in 1622.

[farside22]

God I really don't feel like reading people any more. I'm sorry this is like a chore more then anything.
Cookie for anyone that gives me a good scum list with sound reasoning.
*Looks to CKD*

[Albert B. Rampage]

You're really going to look at the only guy who isn't voting for advice on who is scum?

[farside22]

You're really going to look at the only guy who isn't voting for advice on who is scum?

I have a good town read on him. I may join the sera wagon just because I don't like who is on the espy wagon.

Beside you doing a sound case on your top 3?

[Amished]

-snip-

Besides, even if you think it would somehow be totally above dybeck's mental capacities to invent that speculation of how Karma works, according to your own logic of power roles consciously not using strong modes there would be two parties with the knowledge: scum and powerroles. Yet you use this point in your case to say that there is no way you see dybeck not being scum after that comment because of inside info. Illogical.

-snip-

He bothers me partly because of meta.

-snip-

I don't scumhunt with connections. I believe dybeck is scum. There are enough other people that do scumhunt while looking for connections that to convince them I need to use connections for them. Therefore I look for them to present my case and get scum lynched, since it's extremely hard to convince anybody of gut reads and "this sounds wrong, why did he (dybeck, in this example) say this if he's not scum?"

Are you really trying to say that dybeck-power role would REVEAL himself to know that inside knowledge where vanillas wouldn't know? Painting a huge target on his back because of it? Sound use of logic there.

Also, meta fail is fail.

For 1622:

Question about why I believe PR's wouldn't use their strong ability: I believe I covered this, but with dybeck's reveal about scum using strong abilities that the town used; and lynching scum on D1 we're ahead of the curve and wouldn't need to use strong abilities to assist scum any more. PZ-vig's kill most likely going through a night later suggests that he felt the same way.

Question about farside=town and basing my read on you {OJ} on that: Scum look to kill threats. Confirmed town (Pom is dead, she had no reason to lie and hid behind farside with an ability that would kill Pom N1 if she hid behind scum) is a threat. Richard and one of Anon/Porochaz aren't threats (specifically Richard). If you-scum remember that farside is confirmed town, that would make her a threat and would kill her because of that moreso than the current list of NK's after N1. It's against you-scum's wincon to leave people like that alive. The rest of us are smart enough that confirmed town isn't always right, and farside is smart enough to know the same thing so she's still scumhunting to the best of her abilities in good faith.

Do I think Albert lead the lynch on BV: Definitely a catalyst, but I will admit to not remembering bv's lynch all that clearly since I was only part of the game at the end of it; and he completely lead to Sando's lynch.

(sadface) I think I'm pretty obv-town, and ABR is ... well, ABR. It made me sad that I wasn't at least as townie as he was.

Pretty sure that's it, I'll try to be back in like 4 hours again to follow up any questions.

[Faraday]

I don't buy Espy's claim at all, mostly because he said it was his role was 'Vanilla Townie', even though earlier in the game by a townie death, it showed the role was named 'Villager' here. =/

Yeah I don't think this is telling. having said that the claim really does nothing for me either. We've already seen Bv claim vanilla as scum, too.

Espy wagon > Sera one.

[dybeck]

Are you really trying to say that dybeck-power role would REVEAL himself to know that inside knowledge where vanillas wouldn't know? Painting a huge target on his back because of it?

I'm not entirely sure why dybeck-scum would reveal scum abilities to the town. Can you clarify what the benefit would be to my hypothetical scum-team?

[boberz]

@Jahudo, I think Espy is telling the truth about his claim. Your thoughts about that?

I'd like to see if Espy has anything to say about his playstyle here compared to that game Sera linked.

At a quick glance I don't think the linked game is comparable to this one, and I don't think everyone plays more open just because they are VT. But the claim doesn't make me think he's more likely to be town, and I still don't see how Espy's play here is normal for him.

---------------------------

I voted bv because I was worried about deadline and my potentially being away from the cpu.

That checks out.

I was then convinced by bv's lack of understanding about a roleclaim which turned out to be false but unvoted.

And your unvoted followed his claim, so that checks out. But there was only 2 days until deadline and with your vote the Richard wagon had 5 votes. They needed 6 votes in 2 days. (not impossible, but starting to be a stretch)

I then knew I could be online and hoped that a last minute counterwagon would com back to Richard who had a lways been my favoured lynch.

And you were online the morning he was lynched, so that wasn't a lie.

My voting him was an attempt to tempt any other deserters into voting Richard.

But the only evidence you had was that his claim sounded genuine. It was just your gut reaction, and everyone was going to have their own reactions and probably not be persuaded otherwise.

It didn't look like you were trying to stop the wagon, but be okay if other people saw it the same way on their own. So why push the other wagon so weakly if you thought BV was town?

I know it checks out, that is because it is true.

On the going on to Richard. I knew it was a bit of a long shot but I was not convinced on Pom and was very convinced on bv safeness. It wasnt only gut on bv's claim but I thought I had a solid point. I admitt I was wrong and did not express it well enough but when I first unvoted I thought most people would. It then transpired otherwise but at the time I was not to know this.

---

ABR why does Nick suddenly find me scummy? Or are you just slinging enough mud that some sticks?

Ckd you talk as if you are bargaining for the compromise lynch, or beginning to nd dont like the two on offer. But there are only two proper wagons. Care to vote somebody so that we can atleast have a starting point?

I cannot say much about Amish's meta having never played with him. However I do not sense he is scum at all. I just do not see how his play has benef

[Albert B. Rampage]

I don't think anyone has a clue what Nick thinks, honestly.

[Espeonage]

Mo town was the first game I ever played semi-decently. I actually found that my opinion was valued for once because I wasn't as intimidated by the number of players or by the player group as a whole.

You will notice that I have steadily become more and more vocal in this game as the number of players has dropped. Argueing that that is because of the pressure on me isn't really applicable because I have been under scrutiny the whole game pretty much.

I guess I am happier playing in games with less players. I don't take notes when I play because I normally retain less that way. (I have a weird brain) But there gets a point when there are too many players to keep in your head at once.

Basically what I am saying is that I don't really see much difference in my play there as apposed to here.

[Amished]

@Espy and Seraphim: How would you classify each of your own play so far this game?

@dybeck: It doesn't benefit either a PR or scum (which would be the two that know more of the mechanics) but a PR would know not to open their mouth and paint a target on their back like revealing mechanics would. Scum, however, do like to reveal what they know and try to look more intelligent so they reveal facts that would give them "townie cred" for trying to think about something that townies would have no clue about.

[Seraphim]

What exactly do you mean?

[Amished]

Just classify your play compared to your own standards.

[Amished]

How would you describe your play so far?

(probably a better way to phrase that question)

[Seraphim]

I think Day 1 and this day to some extent were my strongest. It's not surprising, I tend to burn out easily and start coasting regardless of my alignment. This game has managed to keep my attention and I think my play has been pretty average this game comparatively to other games.

[Amished]

Ok, waiting for Espy's response before making a decision

[Espeonage]

I played pretty crap at the start but I'm loosening up now that there are fewer people to focus on.

[Amished]

Ok.

Unvote
Vote: Espeonage

(L-1)

Also, Sera moves into my more town read pile.

Also also: this is better cause then I'm not voting with dybeck or boberz.

[Javert]

Blatant defense of Espeonage:

1.)

Comment for both NickF227 and Seraphim in particular (who both claim not to “buy” Espeonage's claim):

I think Espeonage's claim makes him

more

likely to be town, precisely because of Post 1198, where he claimed one of his worst “tells” is that he is more active and interested in games where he is scum or has a power role. This is a fairly common theme with some players (i.e. people who see a townie role and just sigh), so I am surprised the reason you (Seraphim) don't “buy” Espeonage's claim is that you think

power roles

tend to play more “muted.”

Also, as others have pointed out, I am not thrilled with NickF227's reason for not “buying” the claim because it completely contradicts him supposedly using “villager” in a vague sense in Post 1075.

2.)

Also, and I've said this before: I really just don't think scum would post Post 222.

Certainly, there are some more “fearless” players who I could see such a post coming from. But Espeonage is not striking me as a “stick my neck out” player – I think this post is highly unlikely to come from Espeonage-scum. Such a comment would be saved for night conversation.

On top of that, given bv310's reaction to that post (“holy role-fishing!”), I doubt Espeonage would be scum with bv310 and Sando.