Mini 983: It Got Worse (GAME OVER)

[RedCoyote]

I asked the Mod about the twelfth player slot, and he was more than a little ambiguous about it. I don't know what's going on with that.

I'm happy with my role, but it was the third on my list. I'm wondering if other people picked my first two, both of which are probably popular enough to be chosen. I don't know if it's relevant at all, just something I'm putting out there.

Well, let me try this:

Vote: ???

You may not vote for the twelfth player at this time.

[RedCoyote]

Yeah, sorry, I meant character.

Unvote: ???

(even though it was invalidated);

vote: Amished

[RedCoyote]

Yeah, we should've, Amish.

Dang Snow_White and her trying to be too slick.

Unvote

;

vote: Nikanor

Piggybacking on SP's reasoning.

[RedCoyote]

I have no clue what the hell SP is doing, Llama's line of questioning was totally legit and what I'd expect from him.

Do you think he's being overly aggressive? What about Nikanor? Are either of these players deliberately misleading?

I already pointed out that your reasoning for the vote on nik was based on a false assumption (RF was not on V/LA), apparently your reason for voting me was something along the lines of pressuring nik for NOT pressuring your vote. So me putting pressure on a vote based on incorrect information became a scumtell apparently.

Is this true? I just kind of took SP's word for it.

[RedCoyote]

Dammit, Llama. I actually have to go back and work on this now.

SPS voted SK, not Ray. SP was saying that Nikanor's support of SPS' SK vote was suspicious, but Nikanor argues that he was referring to something completely different. Now that I've read Nikanor's post again in a new context, I see what he was getting at.

Unvote

I'd like to hold onto my vote a little longer if y'all don't mind. I have a couple places I'm possibly interested in putting it, but nothing concrete. I appreciate Llama taking the time to make me confront my vote (as opposed to SK/Spyrex who'd sooner assume it was icky).

[RedCoyote]

I'd say SP is being intentionally unhelpful and mysterious, but not really misleading.

Yes, I meant SP.

Hmmm. I'm not trying to box you in by pitting you against SP or Nikanor; I'm trying to figure out your mindset and what it is that rubs you the wrong way about SP. I mean, is there really an effective difference between someone being intentionally unhelpful and someone being misleading? Assuming SP is playing to his win condition of course, which I think goes without saying.

And while on the topic of semantics...

@ RedCoyote: Ahem. I said I disliked SP's reasoning, and I liked even less how you piggybacked on that bad reasoning with your vote. That's a fair bit more than "assuming it was icky".

Are you implying that I am belittling your suspicions? I'm not intending to do so, to devalue them with a lesser adjective so to speak (if this isn't what your implying, then please clarify). You may substitute icky for the word "bad", "malicious", or whatever else. My point was that, rather than attempt to press me on my opinion, you assumed that I was scummy for agreeing with SP. Isn't that right?

[RedCoyote]

Y'all are kind of talking over my head with this "LRC" and "LRCv2". I feel like the entire discussion is centering on meta that I'm not going to read. I don't see the supposed contradiction that Spyrex does, so I don't really have a problem with that.

Vote: Steam-Powered Shovel

for being unsure what he's trying to accomplish by with his "day protect" remark. I think Llama is doing a good enough job for himself, and I don't know why SPS felt the need to jump in and attach himself to him like that.

[RedCoyote]

@red and ed: Do you really believe steam-powered shovel suspicious for his day protect?

Like I said when I voted, I don't really get what value he's bringing to the game with it. Maybe it was just tongue-in-cheek, but why Llama? It just seemed kind of out of the blue.

---

@ RC: Nothing more to say on what I've said about you?

Alright, well, you say that you put all this thought into voting me, but I don't think that's true. It seemed like you were more in the business of marketing my wagon than you were "thinking" about it. All I saw, essentially, was that you didn't like SP's reasons and you didn't like that I liked them even more.

Why shouldn't this be valid? Because, in my opinion, town would be more pressed to investigate as to why I was warming up to SP rather than assuming I was doing it maliciously (i.e. Llama's reaction versus yours/Spyrex).

Lastly, I surrendered my position on the back of Llama pointing out the tangled web of V/LAs and absences that kind of plauged SP's quick draw position. I still don't really get a scummy vibe off of SP, but I've changed my mind in regards to how he arrived at Nikanorscum.

---

Why aren't you scumhunting? Why are you going for "easy targets". That really aren't. You're not looking for actually scummy, you're looking for textbook scummy to see what shit you can get past us. Add that to knowing too much, and for the time being I'm pretty sure you're scum.

You know, I was trying to find a way to vote you, UK, but I think this is a pretty good observation. I'm changing my mind about you. I've been racking my brain trying to figure out an angle to really back up any wagon on SPS, but there's really nothing there to vote on.

But what seals the deal is your post 198.

Unvote; vote: Amished

---

@UK: Fine, fucking lynch me. I'll agree that this game doesn't suit my playstyle and I'm a bit lost but this was the biggest thing to happen in the game and I'm attacking SPS for it.

Besides, then I can have an example to point to that "lolreactions" is fucking retarded postgame, and that SP doesn't find scum.

Whatever, I'm town, just lynch me.

BECAUSE YOU'RE BEING FUCKING IMPOSSIBLE.

I truthfully explain everything that I thought and think through, nothing is inconsistent and everything I fucking say is a lie apparently. Jesus christ.

Here comes the AtE!

---

Leaving my vote on RC because he's gone suspiciously quiet as of late (plus my previous grievances still stand).

Rarely do I post during evenings in any US timezone given my schedule.

@ UK: Voted SPS for the dayprotect stuff. Pretty similar to what Amished got accused of doing.

@ Magnus: That excuses him how? And that makes you call Amished scum and RC not why?

You know what? I brought this up earlier, but I essentially gave you a pass for it. This is the second time you've put words and positions in my mouth. "RC is doing the same stuff as Amish is!"

I'm not, and that's dishonest. I haven't made a post yet because it's only been... 7 hours since Amish clarified his stance and 24 hours since my last post. I noticed you've discounted these things and taken it as an opportunity to both try to get everyone voting Amish to vote me and also argue that I'm being "suspiciously quiet". So, answer this then, how many posts do I need to make a day to not be characterized as "suspiciously quiet"?

---

SK's balancing act statement above doesn't make sense if he's scum and Amish is scum with him - thats just asking for rope.

I'm thinking this is true, but I'm also leaning toward the idea that at least one of them are some form of scum. Amish's complete abandonment of SPS after he went to great lengths to justify his vote is not so great.

---

Who forgot about this?
Because my question (addressed "@ed and red:") was after that post.

Bingo.

Both Amish and SK are, for some reason, trying to rush through these accusations as though everything that happened tonight happened over the course of multiple days. I hadn't even read SPS' explanations for his fake dayprotect until now, and already SK and Amish are pushing the idea that I was ready to lynch SPS (read Amish 236, SK 234) for invalid reasons. The problem is that it's completely opportunistic in Amish's case, and in SK's case he seemed convinced prior to any vote I cast on SPS that I was scum, so this is just confirmation bias.

In short, no one "forgot" about me, as SK would lead us to believe, there simply has only been a handful of hours since anything has really taken place.

---

Each of you may ask me ONE question to which I will answer with some semblance of useful information.

What do points mean?

Bad Things.

---

@mo: it's been a day and a half (the day-protect happened yesterday morning). My reaction was different from RC (I was innocent until proven guilty, RC was other way around) for reactions regarding the claim.

Now cut that out, Amish. Are you so prideful that you can't even let the fact that there hasn't been adequate time since my last post penetrate through your rhetoric?

I also need the flip of RC to nail the next person to the door.

So I went from being a suspect to an information lynch? Sounds completely opportunistic, which is starting to be a common theme with you in this game. Will you just say and do whatever you think will convince the most people?

[RedCoyote]

Because I'm more suspicious of the fools that follow the wagon than the fool that started it. SP had bad reasoning, and you pretty much went "/agrees with everything, vote" with nothing original to contribute. Why can't this be scum being lazy and piggybacking off of someone else's argument?

Because I agreed with it and there was really no sense repeating it over again. Nikanor was straight up contradicting himself to please someone (I think it was SPS? I'd have to go back and check), but it turned out that both SP and I read Nikanor's comment out of context a little bit. It happens. Otherwise I didn't really see anything I wanted to comment on, which is a testament to the player list that the Mod managed to put together. I still don't really see too many sketchy things out there with the exception of Amish's erratic behavior and possibly your using unreasonable arguments to justify your positions.

You need to post enough, and give enough content in the posts, to make me think you aren't trying to activelurk. (And I'm not telling you exactly what I think is acceptable. That would be anti-town of me.)

If a post a day isn't good enough for you, then that's unreasonable. I do not usually have the luxury of checking this forum multiple times a day.

I do, however, take solace in the fact that your needlessly (and possibly perniciously) inflated "activity requirements" of me are largely and rightfully being looked upon with skepticism and indifference by the majority of people here.

How is your reasons for going after SPS different from Amished's?

Like I said when I voted, I don't really get what value he's bringing to the game with it. Maybe it was just tongue-in-cheek, but why Llama? It just seemed kind of out of the blue.

I've played with SPS a couple times and I don't recall him ever doing something like this so it was out of character for him. Besides, what possible reactions would a protect actually garner? Did he expect scum to come out and say "oooo, I guess we can't kill him now, can we?"? I don't think so. The claim doesn't make sense for "lolreactions" nor does lying about it in the first place, nor does it fit my perception of SPS-town.

Major differences.

Note to Magnus: Please learn to read the thread before making accusations about me that aren't true. Thank you.

Why is this worthy of a vote? If anything, magnus and Llama seem like the most conservative players in the game so far. I don't get the idea that he's attempting to falsely accuse you of anything. It looked to me like he was just trying to have a discussion with you.

---

For clarities sake, this is you saying Nik is neutral read?

Yeah, I don't have a problem with Nikanor at the moment (well, until post 377 at least).

What was your thought process on the whole SPS thing? It seems like you thought he was scum but changed that opinion at some wierd time, and are saying that the ones who say you wanted him lynched are lying about that. I didnt read that vote of yours (and two subsequent comments on reasoning) as pressure, so where did this change of heart occur?

I didn't really "change my opinion at some weird time", there was just a substantial gap between one day and the next (as you noted earlier) which I feel between. I never had any intention on lynching SPS, I only thought it was odd why he chose you specifically to "dayprotect". When he decided to attach himself to you (having been largely a non-factor in the game at that point to me), that's necessarily suspicious to me. Amish chose to continue to pursue SPS, but I didn't. Even if I wanted to, I couldn't come up with an angle to back up any reasonable wagon on SPS. I simply unvoted SPS because what I had was admittedly weak to begin with and Amish is a much better candidate for scum.

And, as an important reminder, I wasn't voting anyone when I voted SPS.

---

Spy, I'll most likely be voting for SK once the mod comes along for a vote count. Don't worry.

Huh? So is Spyrex scummy or not?

---

Someone explain to me this "FoS" nonsense, because I think the Mod has all y'all on a wild goose chase with this. Is someone supposed to get an investigation or something?

[RedCoyote]

I'm leaving town for the weekend.

[RedCoyote]

Ugh, I miss my sepia.

I don't know if there's much else going on. SK seems like he's uncharacteristically wagon hopping (still don't really get his move to magnus and off of it). I like Amish on offense (in contrast to his "just lynch me!!! ;_; Woe is me!!!") , but I still can't help be see it as disingenuous. He's trying to clean himself of sticking with his SPS vote by throwing me under the bus, but Amish sure put on a show like he thought SPS was scummy. I don't see how SK makes a post, "Hm, RC is still scummy", and it all of a sudden makes Amish completely abandon SPS and throw his weight behind my wagon... unless he was, like I said, putting on a show about his SPS suspicions.

SP might be a little over-the-top, but that's kind of his thing. It doesn't really strike me as scummy.

I still don't get Nikanor's position on Spyrex, and I think he's been throwing it around without really explaining it well enough. This puts me off a bit.

[RedCoyote]

What are you talking about? I'm committed to my vote. Amish could be lynched in the next post for all I care.

[RedCoyote]

Explain "not commit".

Nikanor has steadily been rising up as scummy for me, and SK and Amish haven't really moved. What am I "not committing" to?

[RedCoyote]

Goodness gracious, are you really going to come after me for using the word "seems"?

I'm not going to sit here and say that I know SK, as town, would never jump on and off magnus. I'm saying that it seems to me like townSK wouldn't do that. To the best of my knowledge, that's not how I figure a townie would've approached the situation. I've asked Nikanor to explain why he wants you lynched. He hasn't answered me, but he's continued to make posts restating his intentions. It puts me off a bit, but not enough to make a move on.

I'm realistic, you know, and I don't expect you, even if you're town, to read my posts word for word, but I'd figured you'd at least know the jist of what direction I'm moving in. I have not had flattering things to say about SK for essentially the entire game, and while I've not really come down hard against Nikanor, I've certainly not been overly impressed with his play thus far either.

[RedCoyote]

And...eh, that's really it. At least that I feel like disclosing.

:\

[RedCoyote]

Oh, and to answer SK's question, I was following the Colonel's mini pretty closely. Although I'm not particularly inclined to balance the merits of my read of you on meta, in general I think people fall into a cautious voter/erratic voter category with little deviation. You seem a little different here, so it's something for the players in this game to be made aware of.

[RedCoyote]

Was that a hammer? Because I seriously do not want to participate in a "guys, lynch me, it's best for the town" scenario. That should make you all kinds of nervous.

More to come later (if there is a later that is, a vote count would be nice).

[RedCoyote]

SK, was your claim supposed to be a joke? Like, based on your signature or something?

[RedCoyote]

What does this pinata do now?

[RedCoyote]

I was

SPECIFICALLY TOLD

that Amished targeted somebody.

By somebody do you actually mean magnus?

[RedCoyote]

Well, unfortunately no one sees it fit to answer my questions. I mean, SC just did, but you didn't even give me a chance to respond to that (how am I not surprised?).

If we know Amish visited someone last night, according to SC, then why shouldn't we take a chance on him? Going with the odds that not everyone here has a night action each night, and with the odds that the scumteam probably have more night actions than just a kill, I'd say we have a fair shot with our friend Amish here. I think he's been pretty reluctant to tell us exactly what went on. I can sort of understand this, but when you've been outted as a power role, then you may as well give us the goods. Amish might be hesitant because he's kind of feeling out the town's reactions rather than trying to be forthcoming.

Amish, you claim to have visited Nikanor, right? I mean, do you have any other information about your role or what you learned, do you think SC is leading the town astray, or do you have some other point of view?

[RedCoyote]

Okay, okay. I missed a post; no need to get snippy. You secretly know I'm town anyways.

So why is SC voting you then? Explain that one to me, Amish, from your point of view.

[RedCoyote]

A Bus Driver/Redirector sounds like a role the Mod would use for a game like this, but then again, you could've been covering your ass in case SC snuck up on you with a "I saw you visit magnus".

Hmmmm...

On the other hand, you could've always fell back on the trusty ol' Vig claim.

I'll go with it, Amish. I feel better about you today than I did yesterday. I think I'm still a little hesistant on SK though. I'm rereading over the quote that Spyrex pointed out, and it does kind of look like SK was using a subtle "since magnus, a scum, went after me, that means it was scummy to come after me yesterday" argument. Additionally, I'm wondering why he outted himself as someone with a night action without provocation. Do you have an answer for that SK?

[RedCoyote]

Oh, wow, so Nikanor is Beetlejuice (Beetlegeuse)?

Do you know what your abilities do?

[RedCoyote]

They're what now?

[RedCoyote]

Maybe that'll give this a push because not even The Ghost with The Most was able to cause a ruckus.

I love this line.

I'm not big on early mass claims, but this is an exceptional game that I normally wouldn't be jumping at the chance to play. I'll be happy to get things rolling... however I need to make a request before I can do so.

Mod: Will you please resend me my Role PM? I think it got screwed up during the transition, because now it's a few weird characters.

I'd also recommend that

everyone in the game

go double check their role PM's for a similar error. Surely I cannot be the only one this happened to. Of course I know what role I am but there may or may not be intricacies to it that I'd prefer to look over before claiming.

[RedCoyote]

Alright, well, my character is Bullwinkle J. Moose.

I'm essentially a VT, but I have one power that I don't control. One random player's actions will not go through each night as long as I'm alive. My role does not specify who this is or if it's even the same person each night.

I hope that's good enough of a paraphrase. Last time I had to paraphrase the Mod was so upset that he banned me from all of his future games.

Anyways, now that I'm out, I probably wouldn't be the worst lynch (assuming a majority believes I'm scum) because my power is more likely to hurt the town than it is to help it. I'd like to hear from SK next personally, because he's still my favorite lynch at the moment.

[RedCoyote]

@Ythan: No to the first question, and, as for the second question, I would just surmise that, as a cartoon character, specifically one that relies on slapstick humor, it would kind of fit that my roleblock would be random and unknown. Additionally, it randomness in night actions appears to be a theme, to play outguessing a little bit.

@Nikanor: Yes, "Town Warp". I was hesitant to include this because I don't want the Mod to give me any points, or something worse. I've never heard of this role name before.

[RedCoyote]

"Additionally, randomness in night actions appears to be a theme, to play outguessing the Mod a little bit."

I hate not having a preview button on the quick reply area.

[RedCoyote]

I like SK's claim. It seems believable.

[RedCoyote]

I've never seen the Stargate television show. I saw the original film in what seems like a long, long time ago, but that's about it.

I get your argument, Ythan, but I take it you have a reason to be skeptical of his role? Why not explain that for us?

[RedCoyote]

All the claims seem good to me. I'm always kind of a sucker for claims... and in a game like this, where everyone seemingly has a power, I don't want to deny them that.

UK and Spyrex both have been kind of kicking their feet up, letting Ythan and SK go at it, letting the people who have been claiming bicker amongst themselves. UK with her, "classified information" and her earlier unwillingness to be upfront about her town reads as well, and Spyrex with his occasional flimsy comment or attack.

After traveling all the way back to page 28, I finally found what I believe to be our last vote count.

Vote: SpyreX

Let's get serious here. He jumped aboard the SPS wagon, and even though the wagon has since basically disbanded, he is still there. The reasoning was originally meant to be that SPS has been inactive, but besides SK and Ythan, who hasn't been inactive at this point? It's not good enough, and I think Spyrex (although he may just be one among multiple others) is taking advantage of the lull in the game by lazily holding to this wagon. He's had opportunities to update it now since SPS' claim, but more than that, I would just go back to SPS earlier in Day 1 doing potentially the only "controversial" thing in the damn game. He brought unnecessary attention on himself at a time when he didn't have to do so, which, generally, is a good indicator of towniness. I think all of the players here, more or less, have been in the limelight at one point or another. I would certainly say myself, SC, Amish, SPS, Ythan, SK, Nikanor, and, to an extent, UK have taken up a cause at some point in this game. Can the same be said of Spyrex? Possibly not, I'd contend. I get the sense of a player hanging back.

Long story short, Spyrex and UK are my picks, although I could still see myself on the SK wagon.

[RedCoyote]

I agree. It just goes to show how much attention I've been paying to this game. Mod, please take the five minutes to update the vote count today.

[RedCoyote]

God forbid we don't wait our turn to claim.

[RedCoyote]

This FoS nonsense is a waste of time. I said it yesterday, I'll say it today, and I'll probably have to say it tomorrow. Y'all have been trying to make something of it since page, like, 10, and nothing came of it. It's a wild goose chase to make people look as though they're contributing, and don't think that I've forgotten that you've been the biggest proponent of wasting the town's time with it, SK.

But Spyrex is still my favorite lynch as the most useless in a stack of useless players (myself included). Nikanor I'm not so fond of for our lynch. I don't see how he has been lurking, as UK claims he has.

[RedCoyote]

In other news, how has he not been lurking? Did you not notice how long it took him to respond to SPS' call to claim? Did you not notice he was posting in EVERY OTHER GAME HE WAS PLAYING during that time? Why was he avoiding this one?

Since everyone is so up in arms about lurking, how about we do a real post count and analyze this situation from an impartial point of view?

From right now until this same time last week, the top of page 37:

UK 17
Ythan 14
Nikanor 11
SK 11
Llama 11
SC 7
Amish 7
Spyrex 7
RC 3
SPS 0

And, yet, Nikanor is the big lurker, according to UK, when he's actually tied for third most posts this past week. Do I need to go into last week, or do you concede the point? Obviously you can't analyze activty purely by post count, but it gives you a general idea. Now if Nikanor wants to come in here and call himself a lurker, that's his business. He's still technically wrong according to just the raw factual evidence that he's posted more than a majority of the players in the past week.

---

Wow. Really? All it takes is a simple FoS: SaintKerrigan. Everyone except you has done it now. This is hardly wasting your time, or anyone else's. This has seriously got to be one of the lamest things I have heard in a long time.

Hm, looks like you just got "weakened" by it. Still defend your strategy of FoS until the town wins the game? It's nonsense, and it's the perfect tool for players to make like their doing something important in the game. It would be nice, as scum, to throw out a bunch of useless (or harmful, as it appears) FoSs and chastise others for not following their lead.

All this being said, I didn't realize the deadline was tomorrow. If Nikanor is the choice, then I will be on tomorrow to vote him. Spyrex really is the way we should go though, or possibly SK.

Mod

, you left my vote off the vote count.

Actually, let me go ahead and

unvote

. I'll

vote: SaintKerrigan

because this "weakened" thing might mean it takes less people to lynch him. If the deadline is ~30 hours away then we need all the help we can get.

[RedCoyote]

EBWOP: It's nonsense, and it's the perfect tool for players to make like

they're

doing something important in the game.

[RedCoyote]

Are you counting posts along the lines of "Hey, I'm here" or are you making judgment calls as to whether it actually has content? I think the more accurate indicator is quality, not quantity.

Correct. Hence the admission, "Obviously you can't analyze activity purely by post count, but it gives you a general idea". Of course I understand this isn't the whole story, or else why would I willingly parade my inactivity?

Moreover, I'm not the person trying to rationalize a case based on activity levels, UK (and whoever else on the wagon sympathizing with this) is. If I subjectively took a bunch of our posts that I didn't think fit a certain criteria, then the data is necessarily compromised. So, yeah, sure, some of this Nikanor posts are one liners, how many of your's are, or Ythan's (hint: a lot)? I'm just saying that on a raw numbers level, Nikanor is nowhere near the biggest offender.

---

Why are you defending Nikanor?

Because he's not really the best lynch today, and I want to be heard on the issue. I don't like this gang you've formed, and if this lynch does not produce results, then I intend to continue my attacks.

---

Now there's no funny business with scrambling for a lynch. Its right there.

When he's scum though hopefully its a good long night so you can go ahead and explain the business this page.

Look, when I say I'll help the wagon through if necessary, that's not some sort of trick. I'll hold up to my end of the bargin, but it wouldn't be townie of me to let poor lynches go through based on bad logic. This doesn't feel like a good lynch. I certainly don't like seeing the collective of you, SK, and UK all on this lynch as I think that's a really bad group to get involved with. The question may be, are you hanging out with the wrong crowd, or are you a genuine bad egg?

[RedCoyote]

I

never

said anything akin to "FoS people until town wins the game." I just wanted to test out FoSing and see what (if any) effects it might have. I do not like this misrepresentation at all.

At all

.

I thought it would be clear enough that that was rhetorical and hyperbolic (it would be absurd if a mafia game could be won based on the number of FoSs given), but my point of course is the "test" is no good. It's a complete facade. Your intentions are not wholesome or curious; they're likely manipulative.

Sheer post number don't mean shit unless there's content in them.

Hence the admission, "Obviously you can't analyze activity purely by post count, but it gives you a general idea". Of course I understand this isn't the whole story, or else why would I willingly parade my inactivity?

I hate SK switching votes at this time, but I'd love to lynch Spyrex...

SK, didn't you make a post a little while ago saying SPS would make a good lynch? It seems like you want to lynch everyone, lol.

Anyways, I can't hold out. I'm going to be asleep here in hour or two, so UK wins. I won't give anyone ammunition with regards to reluctance in pushing a lynch through at the deadline.

Unvote; vote: Nikanor

[RedCoyote]

Elect: LlamaFluff

Best bet for "someone I trust" atm.

I'll brb though because I want to see if the PM in my inbox is from the Mod.

[RedCoyote]

Amish was the first to mention a gift, which, I think, is a good sign. Ythan was second, and then Spyrex tried to jump aboard (you have to think it starts to lose anything at this point as the scum could've gotten wind of what was going on). Going off the idea that gifts are only for town, which, granted, could be a complete red herring, gives Amish and Ythan a bit more town creditability. This coupled with a little wagon analysis from yesterday's lynch leads me to believe that Spyrex still has to be scum. Since apparently we can only vote once, I'll probably hold back a few days, but I feel very comfortable about that read.

SK burning his vote so early has to shoot up some red flags. I know he's not happy with Ythan, but that's a bold move to make. I just don't sense Ythan as a top-tier lynch candidate (I think I would be more likely to be lynched than Ythan). Additionally, if Amish says he isn't happy with SK, I'm inclined to think he probably has more knowledge than we do given his night actions.

I think I'd like to see one of these two go down.

[RedCoyote]

Welp its definitely not a scum-scum slapfight (not that that was likely).

Very true. I have certain concerns with SK that I don't have with Ythan that, I think, take precedence over Ythan's selective voting, argumentative patterns, or whatever else SK has had to say about him as of yet.

Amished, I tried to make it pretty clear in my last post. I would say Spyrex. If there was scum that put a finger on the scale while debating Nikanor's alignment, it was definitely his doing.

[RedCoyote]

I... you... what?

If there was scum on the Nikanor wagon, it was you. Perhaps worried that the wagon would lose steam, you tipped the scale by throwing your vote down at a critical point and made it more difficult for us to back away from a Nikanor lynch.

[RedCoyote]

can you elaborate a bit more on your concerns with me? Additionally, do you think that a player not voting for someone he considers sure-fire scum is scummy? Why or why not?

To answer your latter question first, I do think that's scummy, but not as much as you do. I very plainly think that you have too much personal drama going on with Ythan at the moment to look at him objectively.

As for the concerns with you, I think you probably remember our rough history throughout this game as much as I do. In reverse order:

You burned your vote today far too early, forcing the town into a slightly less manageable position than necessary (but if you're town, this means the scum don't have to worry about your vote interfering with their agenda).
Amish, having no doubt gather some information at night, is none to fond of you at the moment.
We have an absolute disagreement on the value of FoSs and how they relate to contribution to the overall game.
You switching from Nikanor to Spyrex at the last minute yesterday was abrupt and out of left field. It felt more like you wanted to get off the lynch wagon than you trying to create an alternative lynch.
Your subtle remark on magnus' flip that implied that those who attacked you D1 should necessarily become more scummy.
Your earlier wagon hopping, although I guess it could be more or less stretched into your flip from Nikanor to Spyrex.
Unreasonably holding me (and only me) to some personal activity standards.
Your pigeonholing me in the same boat as Amish, when that was far too presumptive to do given the lack of information.
You putting more of a value on your first argument against me than interrogating me and attempting to understand why it was I felt the way I did.

---

So are you going all the way live and saying I'm scum with SK?

Because thats about the only way that could even possibly make sense - and I didn't "push the scales" as much as call out your ardent defense of Nik in lurker mode

in conjunction

with the throwaway vote on SK under the guise of "this one is easier now" versus even pretending to look for scum.

Sure, that's very plausible. I'm not so conceited as to expect that my reads will come up perfect, but I think it's a pretty safe bet between y'all two.

My defense of Nikanor was nothing more that a compilation of the game to that point. As I reread over my posts, I realize I had been kind of wishy-washy on Nikanor, but truth be told he was never more than a casual suspect for me. I think I found the disconnect here though, because I had forgotten about Nikanor voting you at one point yesterday. That did rub me the wrong way. Still, I'm not calling you suspect for your vote, just the positioning and maneuvering of it.

I did make a mistake though. I probably should have done you first.

You should've. I'm not even being sarcastic, because then I'd have known you'd had a pulse. You complain about me not looking for scum (which is wrong, by the way, so just let me know when you're ready to retract that), but what have you brought to the table? Like I said earlier, I think every person in the game has been in the spotlight at one point or another, be it Ythan v.s. SK, Amish, SPS, and me with the fake protect debacle, Llama and UK leading the push on Nikanor, etc, while you've just kind of kicked back and let it all happen. Can you point to something you've orchestrated? Something you've had to defend yourself on? Something that makes you stick out at all this game? I think you've been playing it close to the vest for a reason, and it's not because you're a Cop.

[RedCoyote]

If I think Ythan is 100% scum, why shouldn't I vote for him right away?

Because you can't be that sure of yourself, big guy. It makes me nervous, not as nervous that you are scum trying to throw a curveball, but moreso that you're seeing only one possible outcome. Hypothetically, what if the lynch today ended up a contest between me and Amish? The scum may or may not heavily favor one of those lynches, and it is easier for them to get their way with you out of the picture.

I knew plurality would get Nikanor lynched if I couldn't get a Spyrex majority, and by that time Spyrex was not only scummier than Nikanor, but a more viable candidate than Ythan (my first choice). And how is it abrupt if it happens based on newly-acquired data?

Because it seems to be more or less a pattern. A pattern of convenience I guess. Now your argument is that you have to vote who is 100% scum in your own opinion, but during D2 you were more practical with your vote.

---

There just is an uncanny ammount of role blocking power in this game. UK, RC and Spy? They are all different (delay, random target, jail), but three that effect the kill seems a bit too much.

I agree with your sentiments, although I don't understand how Spyrex is somehow cleaner in your book. I'll put my value in this game up against his any day of the week.

---

Would it complicate things more if I said I was willing to compromise and do a Spyrex lynch today?

Thanks for the support, but it's a little late for you to be evaluating where you'd be comfortable voting, SK, given the Mod's twist.

---

For Y to be SK, there needs to be three killing groups, or a group that gets two kills a night.

SK is not scum due to the delay. It makes no sense.

Wait, explain to me how this isn't possible. UK only got to use her night action once, correct? That was during N1. This means that she delayed SK, and we only had one kill during that night. She died the next night, and there were now two kills during last night. What part of this doesn't make sense? Assuming SK is scum, his kill that was meant for N1 was just delayed to N2, right?

At the moment I think I'd prefer to chalk the second kill to Bastard Modding than I would to a second scum team, although I don't want to go on record saying that I completely discount the theory. With all the potential roleblocking roles, it's very possible that the game could have three killing factions.

[RedCoyote]

If SK was the member of the scum making the kill N1, MO could not have died. Someone killed MO. It was not SK. It was not SPS.

MOs kill was not delayed, so it was apparently blocked by either RC or Spy saved SPS.

Next night two die. There are no delayed kills as proven above, meaning there are two killing groups.

If SK was delayed N1 someone else killed MO. I am going to discount him committing suicide.

Okay, I get what you're saying. Still sticking with my conclusion at the moment though.

---

HOWEVER, going "ohh look at me and all my contributions" is garbage. Absolute garbage. Show it. Show this myriad of contributions. Be sure to clarify how I'm scum with SK but on this page you are hand-wringing about SK actually being scum but still gung ho on me.

Well, for one, I didn't just say, "okay, Sociopath lynch sounds good, whatever". Second, I didn't just say, "SPS is lurking, let me just leave a vote here until the day is over". Third, I didn't just say, "okay, Nikanor lynch sounds good, whatever". That's you, okay, so we've established that.

But me? I've called SK out since D1. Compared to you, I can't say who your big suspects are. There's me, of course, and I guess SPS still? You throw SK in there, but I don't think you've voted SK yet today or yesterday. Like I said above, your vote was kind of a useless during yesterday and throughout this whole game. I was willing to fight the Nikanor wagon on D2, although the deadline pulled the rug out from under me a little bit. I didn't resign into doing whatever the majority wanted, which I think has been the story of your game so far. That alone makes me more of a contribution to the game than you have been, which is all I've said. I don't think I'm gloating, I'm just saying I think that if Llama objectively matched us up, I'm going to come out on top this game.

---

Can, and will. I've already explained dozens of times why I have this confidence, so I'll not bother to recap it here.

I think that's a brash, ham-fisted way to play the game. It effectively amounts to, "I'd rather lose than think of myself as wrong". There's a fine line between aggression and concession, and while I appreciate someone with the courageousness to hold true to their convictions, humility simply has to play a role in the complete mafia player. I don't mean to come off as lecturing, because I have, and will undoubtedly do so again, fallen victim to "knowing" I'm right. Ythan's lack of civility doesn't help things.

Why are you assuming that I'm going to keep my vote on Ythan for the entirety of Day 3, bar none? It's not like I've said anything to that effect.

I concede this point. I reread over the thread and I realized I was confusing lynch votes for "elect" votes.

This was the only reason why I wasn't voting, btw.

Vote: SpyreX

Explain how it's a "pattern of convenience". My Spyrex vote at the end of D2 was clearly based on SPS's damning data, and the preceding Nikanor vote was from before I realized that plurality would lynch him. Also, Day 2 I didn't start with the knowledge that Ythan was 100% scum. Day 3 I did.

It's convenient that you don't have to choose between me and Spyrex, although, granted, you've attempt to speak to this issue. Still, the words ring somewhat hollow when you have your vote uselessly cast aside. As Llama mentioned, given how similar me, you, and Spyrex are in terms of powers, it's hard to believe that we're all town.

So...it rather seems like a waste of an action to me. First of all, RC does not have a claimed active ability, so you redirecting him is rather pointless in that regard.

Although I don't have an active ability I don't necessarily think a redirector couldn't still take advantage of it (that's like a triple negative XD). What I mean is, I think Amish could still direct my power, regardless of whether I can or not. I mean, I'm just assuming this is the case, but I don't see why he wouldn't be able to.

[RedCoyote]

Crap, I hit submit before I proofread it.

[RedCoyote]

But it'll still work I guess (last post).

[RedCoyote]

What do you mean that I haven't chosen between you and Spyrex? First, why couldn't I choose both of you? Second, I believe I've been very clear that Spyrex is a stronger scum candidate than you today. Third, I'm an Amnesiac.

First, you can only vote one person.
Second, I granted you that.
Third, well, it's more like a daisy chain thing, with me in the middle. You can control yours but don't know what happens, I can't control mine but I know what happens, and Spyrex can control his and knows what happens. You haven't used both of your powers yet though, right?

[RedCoyote]

This is the vote for SK. This is the "calling out".

Oh, please. Can we drop the, "I am shocked and speechless, sir!" act? I don't know what you're getting at with the rest of your post. I never claimed being a big contributor; I said that I'll put myself up against you this game any day of the week. There's a big difference between those.

I can, however, address this, because post 334, post 386, and we even had a little spat with post 458 where I told you, clear as day, that I was not impressed with SK.

I've never been wishy-washy here; I've had a clear, consistent message. You had no issue with me trying to get an SK lynch on the first two days because you just jumped aboard whatever was the popular lynch, but now that I'm coming after you instead it has become some big controversy. Well, hate to break it to you, but it isn't a controversy.

SK says I'm scum with RC (or lllama)
RC says I'm scum with SK

They both vote me.

COME ON

Deal with it.

[RedCoyote]

A ball of qualified language that later that post leads to an Amished vote.

[...]

You call amish erratic but "possibly" SK is using unreasonable arguments. So yes another slam dunker.

[...]

Yea this reads like SK is scum. Totally.

Right, "qualified language", how about, not charging in and screaming that I know exactly what alignment everyone has? You know, why don't you put your money where your mouth is, Spyrex? Am I 100% certainly scum? Beyond a shadow of a doubt? Is Llama 100% certainly town? Beyond a shadow of a doubt? Only yes or no answers, please. God forbid you show any relativity or humility, because Spyrex will get right on top of you for that.

What's worse is that you cherry pick a few sentences from these posts thinking you've got the post all summed up, but, you know, I posted the links for a reason. I had more to say than just, "Hm, SK is scum". I give reasons for why it is I am coming to this conclusion. I engage SK (and not just SK but other people too of course) and the compilation of these exchanges lead to my perception of him. These posts, I contend, are why it is I have had more to contribute to this town than you have. I'm not quite on that Spyrex/SK-pro level of mafia playing where I am able to say that I'm certain that Ythan, SK, or anyone else, is scum/town.

So you can sit here and criticize me for not voting SK, beating around the bush, or whatever, but in reality we both know that none of my proposals have gained any traction. I haven't been on either of the lynch wagons for a reason, because not only am I unable to persuade the town with my suppositions, but I haven't even been all that warm toward the ultimate lynch choices.

And "deal with it" when your number 1 scum pick hops on a wagon with you?

That's a joke based off some meme. Seriously though, what difference does it make? It doesn't mean that I wouldn't vote him if the opportunity arises. And SK just as easily sees me as potential scum, as well he should.

Unless you care to say, here and now, that you don't suspect SK at all. Is that your intention?

[RedCoyote]

Your interactions with SK if you

actually believed

he was scum do not make sense. Even now you still espouse to him being your #1 scum read and you've voted for him once and that wasn't even because you thought he was scum. It was because he was an easier lynch at the time.

Hm, #1 scum read, huh? Care to pull that quote up for us, or was that just a little padding to make your thin stream of arguments more palatable? To save everyone the trouble, the quote doesn't exist, primarily because I made it a point not to label him in that way. No, that spot was reserved for Amish until he claimed, and it has pretty much been you since then. SK has undeniably been on my mind throughout most of this game though, which is why I constantly bring him up. I voted him when I thought was most practical, sure, but it wasn't strictly because he may have been an easier lynch. I had a scumread on him then as well, but as I said in the post, if I recall correctly, I would've preferred to lynch you then too.

And your reasoning? Because its never gained traction? Well, when you yourself wont even place a vote the idea of it somehow mystically gaining traction is just laudable.

The point being that I've talked up SK just as much as I had you or Amish during their respective time periods, but time and again the town has neglected to take my advice. That's fine, you know, I'm not making the point to whine or anything. I'm just making it clear that your angle of "need to vote SK" doesn't float when my votes on Amish or you have made little difference. Moreover, as I've said before, I'd still be more than happy to have an SK lynch. Llama was the one who said he wasn't interested in that, that he struggles to see a way for SK to be scum. If my biggest townread says no dice, then what's the point of voting SK now?

Every damn post is an opportunity.

Yeah, and I've been using these opportunities to vote for Spyrex, Amish, Nikanor, SK, etc. What's the problem?

---

RC notes that there is something going on, says that he will reevaluate the situation, and he never did.

Yeah, I retracted my vote. If that isn't reevaluating your position, I don't know what is. I made a post later explaining this move to SK.

He agrees with UK that he is not really doing much but attempting to provide textbook tells which he seems to not like given his response, then he goes on to apply another "textbook tell" of AtE on Amish.

How is post 198 an AtE argument? Granted, I spoke about Amish's emotional appeals, but I clearly said that what sealed the deal was Amish's contradiction that UK pointed out. It made it seem as though Amish was trying to save face when he flatly did a 180 on his meta argument.

As a matter of fact, I was more interested in dismissing Amish's responses as emotionally-driven than I was condemning him for them. The crux of the argument was that Amish was trying to be two different people.

I see no way someone having a night action makes them scum, possibly this is more exaggerated from my standpoint of knowing at this point that everyone had a role, but it looks like a huge streach to either get a claim out of Amish, and/or get a lynch of a PR.

SC implied that Amish shot magnus, so let's keep this in context, Llama. It wasn't just "someone had a night action", it was someone who visited a player who died that night. That's a big difference.

I am not sure why that makes him town, I have used a scum driver in a game of mine before so know it is not out of the question. The oddest thing here is what RC adds on to this, which is that he "feels better" about Amish.

Again, let's keep this in context. Amish could've just as easily claimed to be a Vig, but a Bus Driver/Redirector is a more difficult role to pull off, especially with a Tracker messing about. As to whether he could be a scum-aligned Bus Driver, it's possible, but, again, the Tracker is what throws this off. A scum Bus Driver likely isn't going to want to reveal himself to be a Bus Driver so readily given how easy it is to get caught screwing with the town's night actions.

[RedCoyote]

Well, Amish, you ought to be keeping up because Llama and Spyrex are discounting and riding roughshod over you. I think you ought to have a bigger voice in this given what knowledge you have from your supposed gift. Ooba too, I think, needs to take the game a little more seriously or replace out. I realize he replaced in but I've seen him post in other games. Ooba, if you don't make the time the read the backthread then at least get up to speed with the current discussion and, hopefully, vote Spyrex.

Mod

, have you gotten a chance to fix your computer yet?

[RedCoyote]

Well, personally, I don't get how I'm scum because SK isn't voting me. To answer your question, Ythan, I do think SK/Spyrex is a reasonable choice for a scumteam. If there is a third (if because when there's an SK you never can be sure what will happen), there's another scum member, then I'd suspect it's either you or ooba. I don't particularly find either of you very scummy though, so I'd prefer not to have to choose. I suppose, if force, Ooba would just edge you out in terms of scumminess given how unreadable someone is who won't give an opinion about the game.

[RedCoyote]

Bah, sorry guys, I tried my best. I just can never get Spyrex lynched.

[RedCoyote]

Throwing in a comment before this thread closes: Thanks to the Mod/players for an... interesting game.