Mini 983: It Got Worse (GAME OVER)

[magnus_orion]

vote: Redcoyote

first to post => must be scum

[magnus_orion]

8) Lynching for the most part is to your benefit. No lynches are not recommended but if you all make it clear that's what you want I'll consider it. You can also lynch the mod, if that's what you REALLY want.

Invalid vote. There is no "skyedoc".

Huh?

@Llama: Has that EVER stopped me before?

s

ky

edoc

I think he means its "sykedoc"...

[magnus_orion]

experiment

unvote
vote: not voting

Invalid. You can't vote for multiple people.

[magnus_orion]

That'll put the fear of God into him.

Aw man, THAT'S who I should have picked!

So...Nik calls ME out for voting someone not here due to lack of confirming...but right here says
"OH I SEE YOU VOTING FOR A V/LA.
THAT IS FINE WITH ME
IN FACT, THAT IS WHAT I SHOULD HAVE DONE."

I don't see how you get this conclusion from that quote.

response:

Original Roll String: 1d10

1 10-Sided Dice: (9) = 9

that amount.

[magnus_orion]

I would hop on the LlamaFluffwagon, but I don't agree with it.

SpyreX, please join the SocioPathwagon. His death would surely lessen the amount of capital letters being strewn around willy-nilly.

.... huh?
I'm not sure what your first statement means.
"I'd agree with the wagon if I didn't disagree with it"
Is that what you're trying to say or am I missing something?

If it is, why say something so self-evident?

[magnus_orion]

why should you have worded it better? Are you afraid of being suspected?

[magnus_orion]

I humbly demand that sociopath please make a response to my comment, preferably of an elucidating variety.

[magnus_orion]

magnus! You are in the game..

Most scummy thing to happen thusfar IYO?

Yes, I am!

Nothing dramatically scummy has struck me, however, I may have a few early town reads, nothing strong.

[magnus_orion]

sociopath, cause he's hard to read, in my experience.

[magnus_orion]

How often have you played with him?

Ongoing. Though LRC and LRC v 2 gave me some impressions, though I was merely backup modding for Kairyuu, so that wouldn't count as playing with him per se.

[magnus_orion]

How often have you played with him?

Ongoing. Though LRC and LRC v 2 gave me some impressions, though I was merely backup modding for Kairyuu, so that wouldn't count as playing with him per se.

I generally find mod meta to be more reliable than playing meta. You've watched them the entire game, knowing their alignment, and how they interacted with others, as opposed to a player who only gets half the story until they flip.

oh I was supposed to watch the game?

Yes, I agree. Unfortunately, that more reliable bit is saying he's difficult to read

[magnus_orion]

@sociopath:

I humbly demand that sociopath please make a response to my comment, preferably of an elucidating variety.

/\

[magnus_orion]

LRC stands for Linked Role Chaos, which was a game modded by kairyuu that was a

total disaster

suffered from a few unforseen events, and was canceled mid game and replaced with LRCv2, with much the same cast. SP was town in LRC and scum in LRCv2...


@red and ed: Do you really believe steam-powered shovel suspicious for his day protect?
@SPS: exactly what were you trying to accomplish with that, if anything?

[magnus_orion]

Assuming SPS-scum: if Llama gets targeted it outs him as a liar and it's a 1:1 for town, so it prevents them from really doing anything to Llama. As town, it's either a gambit (that the scum wouldn't know if it is or not) or it's real, both ways it limits the scum. No matter what SPS's alignment is it works in my favor with my current read of Llama.

I read this as: "if SPS is lying, SPS is scum"
was I wrong?

[magnus_orion]

@m_o: Pretty much. I don't see a reason for a town to lie about it anyways.

but... SPS IS lying, as UK just said, its been confirmed to be fake. For a while now, actually...

[magnus_orion]

@red and ed: Do you really believe steam-powered shovel suspicious for his day protect?

hence this question... Because I asked it after SPS was chastised by the mod.

[magnus_orion]

@sps: answer my question?

[magnus_orion]

@SPS: what were you looking for exactly?
@Amish: I'm confused why scum would lie about this?

[magnus_orion]

--> is inclined to agree with UK on all points.

unvote vote: Amished

Also to it is the fact that Amished is immediately acting as though SPS is totally serious (implying that he has completely accepted that SPS wouldn't lie, which suggests he knows SPS is town.) and that he tried to organize town's actions in response, and more specifically tried to direct a hypothetical day vig to check whether or not SPS was telling the truth (implying a desire to be seen as pro-town (looking for liars) and a desire for control of town's actions through that (to ensure he's not eliminated))

However, I'd still like to hear from SPS as to what reactions he expected/was looking for.

[magnus_orion]

SPS is town or scum, right? I expect town to tell the truth, and scum to lie and/or tell the truth when it suits them. If SPS isn't telling the truth, then he's not a townie.

Not necessarily.

Why would town never lie, even when it suits them?
If scum lie and/or tell the truth when it suits them, how does it suit them here?
Also, how do scum know there are no day vigs? Didn't you suggest the hypothetical existence of one a little while ago?

[magnus_orion]

*is shocked that he is the one to struggle to keep up with people for once*

@amished: basically it comes down to what I expect from town vs what I expect from scum:

From town: Look something X is weird! Why did you do X?
From scum: Look something X is weird! You must be scum!
If something makes little sense from either perspective, your first reaction as town isn't "OMGSCUM", its usually "what?"
Whereas you're first reaction as scum may be "I can get a mislynch out of this"

[magnus_orion]

OH HEY, I DID ONCE DIDN'T I!!!

I don't know did you?

@mo: I did think it was something weird and I weighed both possibilities and passed it off (see 159). However, more information has been gleaned (the edit) and it doesn't make sense for town to do something like that. Therefore, it must be a scum action. Then further accounting in the "lol reactions" for the "why?" question, I don't see town doing that either (See last paragraph of 197 for detailed analysis) ALSO doesn't make sense as town.

And didn't ask what sort of reactions he was after.

response: netopalis

[magnus_orion]

I did say I can't keep up right?
UK is faster than me.

um.... what is why!? Amished isn't even in that game.

[magnus_orion]

Also, to everyone jumping on Amished for what he did, why aren't you giving RedCoyote the same treatment?

He hasn't responded yet

[magnus_orion]

@ Magnus: That excuses him how? And that makes you call Amished scum and RC not why?

You'll note I asked both of them the same question. I voted amished based on his responses to it and subsequent questions. Whether or not I find RC suspicious depends on his own responses. I mean, it would be pretty absurd for me to assume that just because his vote was similar that his line of thought was exactly the same.

[magnus_orion]

Also, to everyone jumping on Amished for what he did, why aren't you giving RedCoyote the same treatment?

He hasn't responded yet

Y'all are kind of talking over my head with this "LRC" and "LRCv2". I feel like the entire discussion is centering on meta that I'm not going to read. I don't see the supposed contradiction that Spyrex does, so I don't really have a problem with that.

Vote: Steam-Powered Shovel

for being unsure what he's trying to accomplish by with his "day protect" remark. I think Llama is doing a good enough job for himself, and I don't know why SPS felt the need to jump in and attach himself to him like that.

Forgot about this... (adding to SK's point with quotes for relevance)

Who forgot about this?
Because my question (addressed "@ed and red:") was after that post.


SK, could you be more specific as to what I'm supposed to learn from isoing you in that game?

[magnus_orion]

its been what, a few hours? usually those types of holistic reads are made over much longer periods of time. I don't think they're that accurate in the short term.

[magnus_orion]

Because he isn't talking.
Because he hasn't answered my question yet. Because how he answers will give me reads, and those reads may be different from my reads on you.

[magnus_orion]

Like I said, its only been a few hours. Certainly not enough to justifiably state that the reactions toward the two players are different. Also, accepting that assumes one of us is scum. Shouldn't you, Amished, be suspecting one of us, rather than accepting it as a given and going for the person who would be implicated by one of us being scum? If we were all town, the argument would have no basis.

[magnus_orion]

@mo: it's been a day and a half (the day-protect happened yesterday morning). My reaction was different from RC (I was innocent until proven guilty, RC was other way around) for reactions regarding the claim.

um... k? I ask my suspects questions. Depending on their answers, I ask further questions, until I get a read on their alignment I'm confident in. Basically, the fact that I asked a question means I've found something odd enough that it requires investigation. You've just been responding, and have thus moved beyond the initial stages of interrogation (which RC may not even reach, depending on his answers).

[magnus_orion]

Broadcast: whats the difference between the red and blue text?

One is red, the other is blue. Unspecific questions yield unspecific answers.

[magnus_orion]

>_>

<_<

[magnus_orion]

This red/blue thing reminds me of umineko.

[magnus_orion]

Ok, so you don't believe that Syke is .. the author? The stereotypical murdered host? I'm not sure what you were trying to say with your speculation.

No, it just reminds me of umineko. No speculation is really attached to that.

However, I believe sykedoc is the author. I also believe there is a difference greater than that of their colors.

[magnus_orion]

@ Magnus: Amished's response seems similar to mine in that game, which is extreme frustration with a bullshit case (I went too far with it though )

Frustration is universal to all alignments, unfortunately.
However, I must inquire whether you imply the case I'm pursuing is bullshit. If that is indeed the case, then I must implore you that you elucidate the reasons as to why.

[magnus_orion]

I believe SP is refering to how you
1. judged spyreX only in relation to the amished wagon as neutral
2. judged spyreX as neutral for doing both of the things your other two suspects had to some degree done.

However, that's just my impression on the matter.
Even if that is not what SP is referring to, care to explain?

[magnus_orion]

Broadcast: From now on, please refer to me as "Alpha".

the mod or the red text? Is the blue text beta or omega?

Would you like a name for this as well?

[magnus_orion]

Who gets to be epsilon?

Your mother.

[magnus_orion]

Is the blue text named Aleph?

Hebrew?

[magnus_orion]

Hebrew?

Phoenician
But it became Arabic and Hebrew later, I guess. After it became Aramaic.

[magnus_orion]

I WAS RIGHT! God dammit anyhow, will you all step off now?

No. Because I was right too.
I didn't expect there to be any motivation behind it whatsoever.

@RC: inclined to agree with Amish's opportunism comment. You change your wagon rather than stick with your SPS read. Why? Also, looking for a reason to vote someone doesn't give me pro-town feelings.

[magnus_orion]

SK: As I understand it, these are the issues:
Reasons for your vote for RC: not posting, in the background, being ignored... etc.
Reasons for you fos of me: goading the Amished wagon from the background
Reasons for your neutral (or is it town now?) read of spyreX: not posting, in the background, being ignored, goading the Amished wagon from the background.

This makes it seem like spyreX is receiving special treatment from you. Is he? if so, why? If not, why not?

And: SpyreX didn't start the wagon. How does this affect your read of spyreX? Why?

[magnus_orion]

This makes it seem like spyreX is receiving special treatment from you. Is he? if so, why? If not, why not?

No. I just haven't been able to get a solid read one way or the other, so I'm keeping him neutral. The other two mentioned people did things in a way I considered much more scummy than what Spyrex did.

And: SpyreX didn't start the wagon. How does this affect your read of spyreX? Why?

It doesn't. It just removes one of my points of interest. It does nothing to alter the read overall.

See, those are both overly long ways of saying "no"

Explain why and how, please. You're audience can't see things the way you do, and we care to know.

For example:

No. I just haven't been able to get a solid read one way or the other, so I'm keeping him neutral. The other two mentioned people did things in a way I considered much more scummy than what Spyrex did.

The issue at hand ("why is your read on spyreX different?"), isn't addressed here.
Why haven't you been able to get a solid read?
How is the way in which the other two people did things different from how spyreX did them, and why is it more scummy?

and

It doesn't. It just removes one of my points of interest. It does nothing to alter the read overall

The issue at hand here is "why doesn't it affect your read?" Once again, you fail to address this.


In addition, another issue is raised with this response. Because the removal of that point of interest doesn't alter the read, then that implies that when the point was first brought up, and included, it had nothing to do with the read.

Like so:

Statement A = Neutral Read
Statement B = statement A + Statement C
Statement B = Neutral Read
Statement C = SpyreX started the wagon.

Since Statement C didn't affect your read, why mention it in the first place?

The issue here is whether or not your read is actually dependent upon the reasons you listed in thread, because if, by abandoning one, your read remains unchanged (especially if that read is neutral), it implies that your read wasn't based on that reason at all.

[magnus_orion]

Why haven't you been able to get a solid read?

If I actually knew the answer to that, wouldn't I have told you by now?

The issue at hand here is "why doesn't it affect your read?" Once again, you fail to address this.

(I noted points of interest to me, but both of them are things that can be somewhat townish or somewhat scummy. Without more solid modifiers, I gave a neutral read.)

Note to Magnus: Please learn to read the thread before making accusations about me that aren't true. Thank you.

Seriously, first the rather suspicious behavior you employ on the Amished wagon (a target of opportunity), now assaulting me over points that don't actually exist.

Seems like an FoS wasn't enough.

Unvote: RedCoyote. Vote: Magnus_Orion.

*blinks*
yes this makes perfect sense. /sarcasm.

I was trying to clarify the in-thread argument with you, by making the points against you organized in a clear and coherent fashion. Whether or not you already answered the question is irrelevant.

However, I'm willing to play along.

If I actually knew the answer to that, wouldn't I have told you by now?

How should I know?

Note to Magnus: Please learn to read the thread before making accusations about me that aren't true. Thank you.

accusation? I was saying you were failing to address the issue at hand twice in that post.

Seriously, first the rather suspicious behavior you employ on the Amished wagon (a target of opportunity), now assaulting me over points that don't actually exist.

What points don't exist?


Will you at least finish answering my questions so you don't come off as though you panicked and voted me because you couldn't?

Seems like an FoS wasn't enough.

for what exactly? This sounds like you're trying to scare me with your suspicion.

[magnus_orion]

SK: As I understand it, these are the issues:
Reasons for your vote for RC: not posting, in the background, being ignored... etc.
Reasons for you fos of me: goading the Amished wagon from the background
Reasons for your neutral (or is it town now?) read of spyreX: not posting, in the background, being ignored, goading the Amished wagon from the background.

This makes it seem like spyreX is receiving special treatment from you. Is he? if so, why? If not, why not?

And: SpyreX didn't start the wagon. How does this affect your read of spyreX? Why?

What? When and where has SpyreX goad from the background? Spyre was on the "wagon" before this whole situation came up. This whole post is bullshit and you know it MO.

@Llama: I guess I can see that line of thought, but it's just a stretch for me to even think about faking a day action when it's not really necessary. Lying like that never crosses my mind as town which is why I thought it was so suspicious. Then with the "lolreations" comment for justification instead of your actually reasonable explaination it made it that much worse.

@RC: We don't know what FoS's will do, but it won't end the day so it's worth it to test it out.

Its based on why SK said, not what I said.

Forgot Spyrex was voting Amished too. My mind doesn't know what the hell to make of Spyrex, but he seems to have been fairly quiet, although he did start the Amished wagon. Going neutral for now.

"SpyreX has been quiet, but he started the Amished wagon."
=> Goading from the background

also, the whole post can't be dismissed based on one point. Its a collection of what I believe to be the case being made against SK. I haven't even stated whether I support or deny the case. I'm trying to rebuild it so as to clarify the positions involved, because they are confusing me.

To even further clarify: I believe I already stated that I'm having a hell of a time reading Spyrex, which is a major reason why he's in my neutral category. If there was something I'd read that would've tilted the scales significantly one way or the other, I would not have made him a neutral. It's something that seems rather obvious to me, at least given the number of times I've had to explain it.

Then why is spyreX unique among the people who were (at the time, in your view), involved in the wagon?

"Accusation" might've been too strong a word, but nothing else came to mind at the time. I was also fairly ticked off that you keep saying I'm not answering that question, when I have already answered it (and even quoted the answer I gave).

Let me clarify what I'm doing, because by virtue of doing it, I'm going to make you repeat yourself. I apologize, but by doing so, it can make points more apparent and easier to understand. Sometimes people are misunderstood, which could lead to false accusations and a huge argument in thread where both parties have a valid interpretation of words that have been stated, but one interpretation makes an individual scum and one makes him town. Minimizing the confusion helps me get more accurate reads. By engaging you in a back and forth point-counterpoint asking you to explain yourself clearly and throughly, it helps to accomplish this goal.
Thus, when I first asked you questions in that post (363), I intended that, and the following, to be a self contained conversation which wouldn't rely on referring back to what you've already said, because it had the potential to be misinterpreted when you said it. Thus I would be able to clarify a point of confusion when you brought it up, and thus avoid having us both proceed under the fallacious assumption that we are acting whilst clearly understanding each other, when in reality we are not in agreement as to what was meant.

I already answered both of the questions you brought up, which makes it seem like to me that this isn't genuine scumhunting, but going after a target of opportunity. The fact that I feel you were also doing this to Amished gives me more than a pause, and since a FoS didn't seem to convey my displeasure with your behavior, I decided to switch to a vote.

I explained what I'm doing above. I did do the same thing for Amished, and you can expect me to do it more.
Basically, I believe people can be misunderstood and make mistakes in how they say things. Although I realize this is both a wild and dangerous assumption, I am faithful in it, and thus feel that further clarification of points is useful.

(also, more of a technical point, if something caused you to do something, it wouldn't "give you pause", more likely it "spurred you to action" in some form or another. However, these types of mis-used phrases are an example of one type of area where I believe confusion could arise. That isn't to say all confusion results from such mistakes however.)

[magnus_orion]

@mo: then your understanding isn't based on what you can also read. While true that Spyre wasn't the first to vote for me (IIRC SP was); Spyre started a "wagon" insofar as you can't have a wagon of only 1. Therefore, being on the wagon before the day-protect thing that exploded this thread isn't really goading on the wagon as Spyre said he would be all over SPS for the "lolreactions" thing essentially except that he wanted to see where pressure on me was going to lead to. That's not goading from the background and it's a point that you seem to have fabricated out of the blue, since I didn't really see SK saying that at all.

Pretty much, yes. But that's where the whole confused, doesn't know what's going on, trying to clarify bit comes in. Is this a satisfactory answer to sociopath, or was he getting at something else entirely? I don't know.

Because that would've been an answer to this:

How is the way in which the other two people did things different from how spyreX did them, and why is it more scummy?

[magnus_orion]

@amished (and SK): do you seriously believe I (or anyone) was intentionally ignoring RC whilst attacking you (amished)?
If so, why?
What would you expect different from me in regards to RC during the exchange?
Certainly you expected me to attack RC, I understand that. But how exactly, did you expect me to attack RC? On what grounds?

[magnus_orion]

@ MO: Going back and looking harder at things...no.

Unvote: Magnus_Orion

It seems I need to reread everything, as I'm currently not sure what the hell is going on. Expect revised reads later.

ok, but please explain throughly your change in position when you do present the revision.

case maybe coming if you all really don't see it for yourself

Even if we did I'd prefer it if you'd make the case.

[magnus_orion]

So I read Nik in ISO, and he needs some votes. He has very little content production, and he advocated my wagon without reason (before being asked for it).

##Vote: Nikanor

Mulling over Spyrex: I feel something's wrong about Spyrex, but I can't find compelling evidence to back my suspicions. I presented my read as a neutral and gave counterbalancing points for it because I thought just saying I felt Spyrex was bad but I didn't know why would be worse. If that looks like trying to avoid suspicion, you're right. I maintain that this is often how I play, because for some reason I naturally tend to look suspicious. I also expect people to say this is bullshit and push for my lynch even harder. They'll likely also say that this is extreme WIFOM attempting to derail the wagon on me. I say either believe me or don't.

Your choice.

Why did you change your position from before?
Why are you afraid of looking suspicious?

[magnus_orion]

How many games have you played?

[magnus_orion]

Well, before I comment on SK's recent statements, I'd like to hear Amished's opinion.

[magnus_orion]

yes, Amished's opinion.

I'm not sure what your second statement in apostrophes is supposed to mean/imply.

[magnus_orion]

we're waiting for you to tell me what that statement I referred to earlier meant.

[magnus_orion]

yes, Amished's opinion.

I'm not sure what your second statement in apostrophes is supposed to mean/imply.

My opinion on what?

SK's change of heart, of course.

[magnus_orion]

@Amished: "caved under pressure"? Are you sure you read what SK said? Can you explain why it looks that way to you?

[magnus_orion]

Alright, I sort of understand that.
I was more wondering about your opinion on post... (*realizes BB doesn't have the posts numbered*)

Um... this post, in particular.

Why did you change your position from before?

Because I got sick of defending something that was already putting me under suspicion and wasn't what I truly felt anyway, so I decided I might as well admit what I really felt. The point was to try and avoid suspicion, and I fucked up royally.

Why are you afraid of looking suspicious?

Because I don't like getting lynched any more than the next guy (well, unless the next guy's a jester). I tend to try and avoid suspicion as a result.

[magnus_orion]

Since iso is back, I'm hoping for an exciting post from amished.

@Nikanor: can you explain what exactly convinced you to vote SK?

[magnus_orion]

unvote vote: sociopath

[magnus_orion]

of course there's a supersaint. Of course. Because you know, I tell myself that these things are remote possibilities I can ignore, and so they have to be the case.
Ugh. I'm very sad I lost this. I mean how could I possibly lose? I should've been patient and just let the game deadline...

[magnus_orion]

I knew purple was UK, and I demanded sykedoc tell me how I could get rid of purple, but sykedoc kept telling me he was purple, and that I was crazy.
Oh yeah, UK, the "I"s are supposed to be "1"s, not the "L"s
Well, you seemed to have noticed by the time of your last comment...