Karma Mafia (Game Over!)

[Espeonage]

Everyone turns up evidence through scumhunting Mr. ABR but not everyone turns stuff up that cement them as town. CKD is town done. I am willing to hear more about your other two though.

[Patrick]

Votecount

Faraday (4) -- dybeck, curiouskarmadog, farside22, Jahudo
Espeonage (2) -- Faraday, NickF227
NickF227 (2) -- Espeonage, Javert
curiouskarmadog (1) -- Albert B. Rampage
dybeck (1) -- boberz

Not voting: Nobody
10 alive, 6 to lynch.

Deadline: June 19th

[dybeck]

Scum is among CKD / Javert / Dybek

Are you completely cool with Faraday, Espeonage and Nick?

You seem somehow out on a limb with most of your choices.

[curiouskarmadog]

I have a lot of things to say about CKD. For now I'm just going to tease you a bit by telling you he's likely the scum.

WHOA WHOA WHOA..


CONSIDERING THAT I AM VT AND I HAVE DONE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT NIGHT, this needs to be pushed further.

if this is a soft claim and you really want everyone to think you believe I am scum, this should be brought forward NOW. No teasing today, waiting to see who gets hung, then bringing up tomorrow.

[curiouskarmadog]

also, you have no thoughts on my declaration that Javert is proably town?

also answer this now.

[dybeck]

I have a lot of things to say about CKD. For now I'm just going to tease you a bit by telling you he's likely the scum.

WHOA WHOA WHOA..


CONSIDERING THAT I AM VT AND I HAVE DONE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT NIGHT, this needs to be pushed further.

if this is a soft claim and you really want everyone to think you believe I am scum, this should be brought forward NOW. No teasing today, waiting to see who gets hung, then bringing up tomorrow.

Sounds like now's the time to tell us all about CKD, then, Albert.

I'm on the edge of my seat. I knew today was going to be fun.

[Patrick]

Shanba replaces Faraday. Many thanks to him.

[Albert B. Rampage]

To specify:

I have mental notes about CKD pointing to him being scum.

I don't like that Faraday replaced out, that's definitely scummy too.

[Albert B. Rampage]

But I always enjoy putting dybek on an emotional roller coaster...hey that's why I'm here.

[dybeck]

I have mental notes about CKD pointing to him being scum.

Still on the edge of my seat. Whenever you're ready to elaborate, we're all ready to listen.

But I always enjoy putting dybek on an emotional roller coaster...hey that's why I'm here.

Yes dear. It's all very exciting for me. So do feel free to explain why you are here for my amusement and not to catch scum.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Well...it started out like this...

[Jahudo]

I'm suddenly asking myself why we're not voting/lynching ABR. If its only about Sando, then I don't think that's good enough anymore. That fake claim mess could have been a bus.

[Albert B. Rampage]

What a fantastic idea.

[dybeck]

We need a claim from Shanba first.

But yep, then, tomorrow, we need to talk about ABR. Let's not let ABR's shenanigans distract us from the right lynch yet again.

[Jahudo]

True, Faraday is today's priority.

Also Shanba is only L-2 and I know informative he can be as a replacement already under suspicion. So I also want to hear him out.

@Nick: What was your read on Faraday?

@Espy: What was your read on Faraday?

@boberz: How far down your list is Faraday? I can find some info but don't know if you'd settle for a Faraday lynch, or like another besides dybeck.

[boberz]

I would be happy with a Faraday lynch I think, but we are getting to the stage when we have to be particularly carefull with lynches and I would be doing the game a disservice if I did not push dybeck.

---

On that note.

Dybeck has been kicking around the back of my head for a while. For most of the game it has been a gut read, and that is a large part of my thinking.

Firstly dybeck provides content in seperate posts to his votes. It is an annoying habit when reading in iso because of scrolling up and down that is required. However it seems to me that he picks obscure people for the sake of it, almost the complete reverse of the sheep following he accuses many of us of.

I still find the tone of dybeck suggesting Nick roleclaimed, of his debate with me and his iso post 22 a bit off. The roleclaim debate, because firstly it looked nothing like a roleclaim but secondly if there is even a sniff of a dodgy roleclaim you should establish what has gone on before you go all out and attack. His continuous misrepping of me in ouf debate a while ago and iso post 22 just looked like copying the best bits of everything else that had been said.

[Espeonage]

In a range he is on the scummy side due to meta from a game I played with him. (He already brought it up as a point against me but it incriminates him to a point as well) I'm on the fence with his case though.

[dybeck]

One more vote on Shanba will blow this game wide open.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Unvote, vote Shanba

[dybeck]

OK Shanba. Let's hear what you have for us.

[Patrick]

Tentatively looking for a replacement for Nick, since he hasn't picked up a prod from 4 days ago. If he comes back before I get someone I'll likely let him keep the spot.

[NickF227]

/prodded

Sorry! I had a busy weekend, out and stuff, ya know? Its either been out, work, or sleeping. =/

[Shanba]

I hope you guys appreciate how much I love you all. It's now 1:30; I started my read at 9 and my brain has pretty much been mush for the last 20 pages or so so I spologise if I missed something important from there. Frankly, I shouldn't even be posting tonight, but the situation seems to demand it.

I am a karma booster. Weak boost and strong boost are fairly self explanatory - using each one boosts the karma for that particular role, the weak one weakly, and the strong one strongly. I am unaware of what karma actually does (I asked Patrick and he wouldn't tell me), though it says in my role pm that using my role may help other roles function correctly. Night 1 I weak boosted boberz, night 2 I weak boosted Anon, night 3 I strong boosted ABR and night 4 I weak boosted Amished.

Look at Jahudo's interactions with b7:

Papa Zito is vig

Holy rolefishing, Batman!

Seriously, what possible benefit is there to announcing it? If he is, then now he's been outed. If he isn't, then odds are he'll be NK'd and we lose a valuable townie.
bv310, have you seen anything in Zito's game to make you wonder if he was a vig? It doesn't feel like rolefishing to me if the original player is initiating the speculation that way. Espe's post is fluff though.

I only saw that one thing, which was how I breadcrumbed vig in a different game (offsite). That's why I was worried when someone flat called him it.

Jahudo, I'm pretty sure he just made up the reaction fishing thing afterwards.

So you used something similar. What's the difference between everyone seeing "If I was a vig", and someone saying "hey look at that thing he said".
-------------------

I still think Richard needs to explain his reactions plan; when he started it and why, and what he got from it.

unvote;
Vote: RichardGHP

That post is made when richard and bv are both at 3 votes and hence both viable wagons; despite the fact that the case at that point in time was probably somewhat stronger on richard, this is a clear example of a player joining the counterwagon. It is mitigated, though, byt the fact that the bv case was pretty weak at that time. However, we're not done yet.

I'm not against a bv lynch at this time. There's a valid case that's good for a day 1 lynch, but I think its weaker overall than Richard who does not look like a VI.

Despite this, bv never quite rises to the top of his list. First he gets overtaken by nick, a payer who imo could also legit be called a VI, and then also by pomegranate. In short, Jahudo makes some noise about bv, then goes off and votes anyone else he can find, including the two most viable counterwagons to bv in Richard and Pom; in fact, this looks worse than I originally thought, as he has to test the waters first with a Pom case before laying down a Pom vote the next day. It looks very much like he originally was going to ride the Rickywagon out, saw it was't working and decided to try another case, got some votes on it and decided it was worth pursuing as a counterwagon. In the end it didn't work because it split the votes, but it still looks scummy as fuck to me.

I also think the Pom lynch day 2 was incredibad - it always looked like a counterwagon to bv to me; a last ditch attempt to save him when the first wagon wasn't working. I also don't think the case was particularly strong, particularly as it seemed to metamorphose from "LURKERSCUM" day 1 to "BUSSINGSCUM" day 2.

The big, glaring problem with this case is that it implies he bussed Sando hard. I'm not sure I'm willing to commit to that.

Javert, ABR and farside are my shining lights of pro-towniness in a fairly gloomy world; though farside is only there becasue she's confirmed town. I keep finding myself disagreeing with her tbh. Javert is actually falling in my esteem, too; I'm pretty sure his contribution level has dropped since the beginning of the game. Abr is just Abr. There's a whole bucketload of stuff I ought to follow up - meta stuff about how he is not as emotional as I have come to expect, his role in the terribad pomelynch, his counterwagonning of b7; but serriously, what scum would fake-counterclaim their partner? Even ABR wouldn't do that.

Then again, there was the time he fakeclaimed doctor. I'm willing to give him the benefit of my WIFOM infested mind.

Nick is kinda scummy, kinda under the radar. He's knicking on the door of my top two. I want him dead at some point.

Espeonage has been on like every lynch. Can't tell if that is town or scum behaviour.

dybeck:

Prod received. Still feel the same as I did before, except now I'm starting to think ABR might actively be trying to hurt us. Opinions are nice, but without reasoning tey're not even worth the energy you took to type them.

I'm so glad I stuck my neck out defending you after this gem of wisdom.

CONTENT! POST SOME CONTENT!

Translation - "Man, I so should have bussed you."

The really odd thing about his play day 1 is that he defends bv, then goes after bv's other defender, boberz. TBH it looks like a distraction - no one else is biting, so he's able to fill time with posts that look like activity but for which he's never going to have to answer as boberz is never going to get lynched. If dybeck were so convinced, he would have gone after boberz day 2. He doesn't.

He also give shimself several opportunities to back away from the Sando lynch, though he again gets credit, much like jahudo, for going after this.

CKD is different. When push came to shove on Sando he wasn't prepared to take the plunge. I think he is scum - he also took the easy as fuck option of voting ABR.

On balance, I think Jahudo is scum who has slipped under the radar. I think he realised after his weirdness about bv that he needed to sharpen up his act and hence bussed sando. Oh, here's the post that initially shook my scumdar on Jahudo and made me look at him closer in the first place, I had forgotten about this by the time I finished writing my post:

@CKD: did you respond to Sando's Post 432 somewhere? That's where he explains why he thinks over-reaction is scummy.

@Sando: are there instances when over-reaction is not scummy?

This speculation is sound in theory, but I'm not sure it only points to Sando.

Well, anyone could have thought PZ was the vig. I don’t think that he was offed because he was the vig. As scum, if I can pin point a vig I would keep him around, especially if he is barking up the wrong tree in the game. A vig with a bad scumdar, is an asset to scum. The fact that he was offed, makes me think he was working the right tree. At the end, he was really pointing a finger at Pom..though I don’t think I would rule out Sando.

Zito was going after lurkers early, and his threat to vig Sando felt like it was because Sando was a lurker. Or as PZ called him, "follower. classic blend into the crowd stuff".

When he first said he'd want to vig Sando, Sando had only made 3 posts. And Zito agreed with his reads at that point (Anon, Richard). After a while he stopped saying he'd vig Sando, so I don't think scum-Sando would be more worried than other lurkers or people Zito suspected near the end of the day (Pom, Richard).

So I can see where Sando was still on Zito's hit list, but Sando doesn't look like a clear-cut favorite for night 1. And that goes back into thinking that scum want a vig hitting townies for as long as they think a vig will hit townies.

...which points back to Pom. Writing this post has made me want to lynch pom again. what to do, what to do...

Glorious waffle that ends up on the wrong guy (and he does end up voting pom - eventually he gets back to sando, but not before pom gets lynched - and then he has the balls to blame ABR, calling him a "distraction". The only distraction was your decision that the claimed power role was a better lynch than the guy you had enough dirt on to write a gigantic fricking case. His case on Sando may look big and instigatory, but it's actually the third vote on him, so it's not as vital to Sando's lynch as a casual inspection might infer.

Let's do this.

Unvote vote Jahudo

[Shanba]

/prodded

Sorry! I had a busy weekend, out and stuff, ya know? Its either been out, work, or sleeping. =/

Hey.

What are your current thoughts? Who is scummiest and why?

Also sorry for the wall of text, but I have 78 pagges of stuff to comment on.

[Jahudo]

I guess this is a fresh perspective, albeit on old posts. I haven't really been asked much on my day 1 thought process, but if you have any questions on a specific post I'll try to explain it.

My issue with Richard was this "gambit" he used to explain his attitude in the early part of the game. Its hard to take someone's word on that sort of strategy when it could just as easily be used to try and decrease or re-focus the attention they are getting.

And it was hard for him to explain what he got out of the "gambit", which didn't help his case. When he finally gave some information, it didn't hold up chronologically and it still doesn't. So I still believe my vote was valid--just wrong.

I am a karma booster. Weak boost and strong boost are fairly self explanatory - using each one boosts the karma for that particular role, the weak one weakly, and the strong one strongly.

This doesn't do anything for me. It could be scum or town. I had a role that sounds alot like this in Patrick's Boost Mafia, and I was mafia there. Basically people gained powers by getting "boosted" in a variety of means, and one of the means was me giving them away. So I could claim "hey, I gave you powers so I must be good". Except I didn't live very long there :/

In short, Jahudo makes some noise about bv, then goes off and votes anyone else he can find, including the two most viable counterwagons to bv in Richard and Pom; in fact, this looks worse than I originally thought, as he has to test the waters first with a Pom case before laying down a Pom vote the next day. It looks very much like he originally was going to ride the Rickywagon out, saw it was't working and decided to try another case, got some votes on it and decided it was worth pursuing as a counterwagon. In the end it didn't work because it split the votes, but it still looks scummy as fuck to me.

Half of my day 1 suspects are still alive. So yes I was wrong about Richard, BV and Pom but maybe I was right about Nick or Espy.

Lets not forget that Faraday was all for the Richard wagon and not the BV wagon. I understood his position for a long time because it felt like mine--we were just wrong. So Shanba, why were my reads scummier than Faraday's?

Javert, ABR and farside are my shining lights of pro-towniness in a fairly gloomy world

So you aren't concerned that Javert was never on the BV wagon either? That he went from Richard to Porochaz to Seraphim and even liked the Pom wagon but was never able to commit? These aren't my scumtells, but they are apparently yours. And you don't seem to really explain why Javert is good, so maybe the difference here can better explain why my posts have stuck out.

On a similar note, what did you think of the Seraphim wagon?

Nick is kinda scummy, kinda under the radar. He's knicking on the door of my top two. I want him dead at some point.

Ah, so you agree that my day 1 antics were at least partially called for?