Karma Mafia (Game Over!)

[Espeonage]

Unvote, Vote: Jahudo

[NickF227]

/prodded

Sorry! I had a busy weekend, out and stuff, ya know? Its either been out, work, or sleeping. =/

Hey.

What are your current thoughts? Who is scummiest and why?

Also sorry for the wall of text, but I have 78 pagges of stuff to comment on.

Well, IMO, if people think I act scummy, I've definitely done things that are not scummy, I mean, I would've forced the Pom lynch and not waiting for the extra few days to let someone else to do it, or the last lynch, it kinda just sat there for a while....I mean, yeah.

And for scummiest, I still think Espy is the scummiest one. I don't think he's ever been on the right side of a lynch, and...just in general. I think we keep getting off track anmd its hurting us.

[dybeck]

I am a karma booster. Weak boost and strong boost are fairly self explanatory - using each one boosts the karma for that particular role, the weak one weakly, and the strong one strongly. I am unaware of what karma actually does (I asked Patrick and he wouldn't tell me), though it says in my role pm that using my role may help other roles function correctly. Night 1 I weak boosted boberz, night 2 I weak boosted Anon, night 3 I strong boosted ABR and night 4 I weak boosted Amished.

What a well-researched claim. Sadly, I feel you'll be glad you took the time. The town will like that.

Well... we can see what this did to Anon and Amished, I guess - they died. ABR - did you feel 'boosted' Night 3? Or is this claim a lot of claptrap like it sounds?

[Jahudo]

@Shanba: Do you think you are grounded by the same "karma" rules that other power roles are? Like is your strong power the strong boost? And if you use it, you might be in danger of being "too greedy"?

-----------------------------

Unvote, Vote: Jahudo

Hey, you finally acknowledge my presence!

(If you have the time, ISO Espy and search for "Jahudo". You'd think for how much I talk about him he would have said a little about me before today that wasn't an indirect answer to a question I might have asked. Nope, this is the first time.)

So what should I take from this vote and no other words? Did Shanba already make the player slot look less scummy? Did you just like his case in the same way you have hopped on other people's cases in the past? That is your MO, so I can't say I'd be surprised.

Did you either not see my day 1 adventures, or had you interpreted them another way until now?

[Espeonage]

What other explaination do you require? A vote is a vote. Unlike alot of people that play Mafia I like to play innocent until proven guilty. I am free to agree with someone on the chance that they turn out to be town. This doesn't mean I don't think the slot isn't scummy, it just means I like the case.

Somewhere between not see and not care.

[farside22]

Not sure about the claim but shaba is much more thought out then faraday was.

Shaba: What is your view on what CKD stated in regards to Espy?

Unvote

[Patrick]

Votecount

Shanba (4) -- dybeck, curiouskarmadog, Jahudo, Albert B. Rampage
Espeonage (1) -- NickF227
NickF227 (1) -- Javert
dybeck (1) -- boberz
Jahudo (2) -- Shanba, Espeonage

Not voting: farside22
10 alive, 6 to lynch.

Deadline: June 19th

[Javert]

Prodded. Busy weekend.

1.)

A few questions about your claim, Shanba:

->

a.)

Can you “boost” yourself?
->

b.)

Do players receive PMs being told that they have been boosted?
->

c.)

What do you mean by “may help other roles function correctly”? Do roles

malfunction

? What would happen if

your

role malfunctioned?
->

d.)

Can you find any breadcrumbs from Faraday concerning his targets? Why did Faraday target who he targeted?

2.)

I will need to reread Faraday’s play to make sure the claim matches his behavior, but (pending answers to questions) for now I am fine with the claim. Although I understand the concern about ability not proving alignment, Boost Mafia apparently had a mafia group where all its members had powers, whereas in this game we have only seen Goons. In Boost Mafia, it looks like the Godfather could boost the other Mafiates in order let them use their powers – and that interaction does not really look like that would really come into play in this game.

Since we are halfway through the game, and since we now have a claim confirming my suspicions (at least I think it does, I may not be understanding the claim), I am going to postulate how power roles work:

Power roles start the game off with a certain amount of “positive karma.” The more a role uses its abilities, the more “negative karma” it gains – and using a strong ability is probably much more harmful than using a weak ability. At some point, roles get too much negative karma and stop working (or something). I imagine each role has a different “threshold” for negative karma (more powerful roles fizzle faster, etc.). This seems to square well with the whole “advised to not be too greedy” premise.

3.)

ABR - did you feel 'boosted' Night 3?

dybeck – is there a reason you did not ask this question of boberz concerning Night 1?

boberz, please answer whether you felt "boosted" on Night 1.

4.)

Espeonage, could you please explain your vote on Jahudo

in your own words

? We have already had this discussion before. If you have reasons for voting somebody, you should know those reasons, and hence you should be able to articulate them.

You don't have to post some gigantic case -- just a couple sentences explaining why you are voting for him.

5.)

Hey, you finally acknowledge my presence!

(If you have the time, ISO Espy and search for "Jahudo". You'd think for how much I talk about him he would have said a little about me before today that wasn't an indirect answer to a question I might have asked. Nope, this is the first time.)

Jahudo, what conclusions do you draw when a player does not really directly mention or comment on another player much in their posts?

I find these interactions can be telling once a player flips scum, but you have been pointing out this type of interaction between living, unconfirmed players. Why? You seem to be suggesting that not commenting on every player in the game is scummy for some reason, and I cannot say that I am fan of it.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I'm not answering anything that may reveal what my role is...

[Jahudo]

Javert, where would you rank Shanba, Espy and I on your scum list right now? Are you still arguing that Nick should be today's lynch? Or has the focus shifted to where you are deciding among the other wagons?

Jahudo, what conclusions do you draw when a player does not really directly mention or comment on another player much in their posts?

In Espy's case I can imagine he didn't see anything suspicious from me, so nothing was worth mentioning. I can understand a player not talking about someone they find town when they're concerned with finding scum.

I find these interactions can be telling once a player flips scum, but you have been pointing out this type of interaction between living, unconfirmed players. Why? You seem to be suggesting that not commenting on every player in the game is scummy for some reason, and I cannot say that I am fan of it.

How do you get that conclusion? My post was specifically about his vote not having any reasoning attached to it because he hadn't mentioned anything on me before. Even if the answer is the obvious (Shanba's case), I still wanted to know why Espy didn't see any of those points earlier.

Right now I'm not buying Espy's reason of not seeing them (anyone following this game should know who was on Richard-town and not BV-scum.) Although I can believe he didn't care. He has shown to piggyback other people and not make cases for himself. That's just how he plays and it would be a good scum strategy if he can get away with it (which he is, even if he's town).

[Shanba]

/prodded

Sorry! I had a busy weekend, out and stuff, ya know? Its either been out, work, or sleeping. =/

Hey.

What are your current thoughts? Who is scummiest and why?

Also sorry for the wall of text, but I have 78 pagges of stuff to comment on.

Well, IMO, if people think I act scummy, I've definitely done things that are not scummy, I mean, I would've forced the Pom lynch and not waiting for the extra few days to let someone else to do it, or the last lynch, it kinda just sat there for a while....I mean, yeah.

And for scummiest, I still think Espy is the scummiest one. I don't think he's ever been on the right side of a lynch, and...just in general. I think we keep getting off track anmd its hurting us.

Well, your point on espy is factually incorrect, as he hammered sando.

Javert - I've sent a PM to Patrick asking for clarification on points a and b; I also asked for claification on c, but I don't know how helpful it will be.

As for d, I assume they're people he thought were town power roles; and albert would probably be because of the cop claim.

Half of my day 1 suspects are still alive. So yes I was wrong about Richard, BV and Pom but maybe I was right about Nick or Espy.

Lets not forget that Faraday was all for the Richard wagon and not the BV wagon. I understood his position for a long time because it felt like mine--we were just wrong. So Shanba, why were my reads scummier than Faraday's?

VI = Village Idiot.

I have that feeling about BV, like he'd look scummy under a little bit of pressure no matter what his alignment is; that he write in a way that can be easily misinterpreted. I still don't see scum motivation from his play, and I believe the claim.

It's your reasons for giving bv a free pass.Of your suspects: Nick, Espy and richard can all legitimately have the VI label thrust upon them; indeed, in another game (ongoing) I've actually seen Richard called a VI. So why did bv get a free pass but the other three not?

I guess Richard did eventually, but I'm still not entirely sure why he did either. Because you suddenly saw his perspective and had an epiphany?

If Javert were scum trying to promote a counterwagon, why did he not pick the obvious one (AKA Richard?) He's town to me because a lot of what he says rings true; in fact, I thought porochaz was the scummiest player in the game until he died (I like to do my readthroughs without knowing the roles of the dead, it helps me get a more genuine thought process.)

Farside: you mean ckd's "espy knows the town role pm" thing? I'm pretty sure scum roles would request a confirmation too. I think it's ridiculous to assume a scum couldn't have worked out what ought to be added to the end. Also it smacks of outguessing the mod; patrick and ether are too smart for that. I'm not too fussed about it tbh; some players play that way and I don't think it works, but frankly it's the sort of thing a scum pretending to be scumhunting might not pick up on. So I think it points to ckdtown and not esptown

[boberz]

Is it possible that the karma targetting means that the person being targetted doe snot get a negative consequence, but all other PRs get a negative consequence.

I also do not wish to answer the question about whether I felt boosted. I trust anyone with usefull info to leave it untill the right time until a reveal.

Shanba has baffled me with ssuch a clever roleclaim. Because we have no idea what it will do so have no idea how to check it. Also we do not really know whether the role is alignment spsecific. We also dont know whether it is true or ahs been cooked up very cleverly.

I still suspect dybeck, he seemed to want to undermine that claim without really looking at it froman independent perspective.

[Javert]

1.)

Javert, where would you rank Shanba, Espy and I on your scum list right now? Are you still arguing that Nick should be today's lynch? Or has the focus shifted to where you are deciding among the other wagons?

Currently, my rank for lynching candidates between the three of you would be: Jahudo, Shanba, Espeonage. I have been thinking Espeonage is probably Town for quite a while now. I think Shanba is probably Town based on my read of Faraday, though I am waiting on Shanba’s responses. You are first on the list by default, because I do not really have a town lean on you.

Obviously I still think NickF227 is a good lynch seeing as I am voting for him. By this point, I am voting him largely because there are actually quite a few players I

will not

vote for (or more aptly, I will only vote for at a deadline). Hence, I have a very short list of players I am currently willing to vote for today, and NickF227 has been on my radar for quite a while now. I am not really persuaded by the “wet dream” argument because I imagine NickF227 is unhelpful both as town and scum, but I think NickF227 has crossed the boundary from simply being unhelpful to being scummy.

I find these interactions can be telling once a player flips scum, but you have been pointing out this type of interaction between living, unconfirmed players. Why? You seem to be suggesting that not commenting on every player in the game is scummy for some reason, and I cannot say that I am fan of it.

How do you get that conclusion?

It is a logical extension: if I do not comment on every single player in the game at some point, then it seems I have therefore “ignored” the players I do not comment on (or failed to “acknowledge” them, as you said earlier). Your posts give the impression that when somebody does not directly mention another player, it is scummy. Since you have not said that outright, though, I asked you what conclusions you

do

draw.

2.)

(I like to do my readthroughs without knowing the roles of the dead, it helps me get a more genuine thought process.)

If this is true, your first post of the game seems like it would necessitate that you have read the game twice over (once blind, once informed). But your opening post definitely gives the impression that you read through only once, and were starting to have Mushbrain Syndrome in the last 20 pages.

More pointedly: it seems like you read the game looking for connections to bv310 from the get-go. Indeed, your opening post says you that you “always” thought that Pomegranate was a counterwagon, which would suggest that you knew a different scum (either bv310 or Sando) was the good wagon.

[Shanba]

If this is true, your first post of the game seems like it would necessitate that you have read the game twice over (once blind, once informed). But your opening post definitely gives the impression that you read through only once, and were starting to have Mushbrain Syndrome in the last 20 pages.

More pointedly: it seems like you read the game looking for connections to bv310 from the get-go. Indeed, your opening post says you that you “always” thought that Pomegranate was a counterwagon, which would suggest that you knew a different scum (either bv310 or Sando) was the good wagon.

I reread the scumwagons (or more accurately the bv wagon, my reread of the sandowagon was nothign more than a scan) after finishing the game, because those are the most obvious sources of information for any person who wants to find more scum.

[dybeck]

I also do not wish to answer the question about whether I felt boosted. I trust anyone with useful info to leave it untill the right time until a reveal.

Boberz, it's really important that you don't reveal anything about your role. Trust me for now and please don't even hint at it. I'll explain before the day is through.

Shanba has baffled me with such a clever roleclaim. Because we have no idea what it will do so have no idea how to check it. Also we do not really know whether the role is alignment specific. We also dont know whether it is true or ahs been cooked up very cleverly.

It's a work of genius, for sure. I'm just not sure whether it's the mod's or Shanba's. Has anyone played with Shanba before? Is he smart enough to have cooked this up? Can anyone think of a way of verifying it?

I still suspect dybeck, he seemed to want to undermine that claim without really looking at it from an independent perspective.

Don't get me wrong. I'm in two minds about it. It feels like it should be provable/disprovable - I'm just not sure how. I'm skeptical, though, on the basis that two of his targets are dead, and the fact that even if it's true, it could easily be a scum role. I'm also concerned, on the basis of the deaths, that even if it's a town role, that scum are hijacking it somehow. However, we can't do anything about that. All that we have to do is decide the best lynch.

Pleased that there's now something to discuss, though.

unvote

while I take stock.

Nick: What do you think of Shanba/Faraday's claim?

[NickF227]

Nick: What do you think of Shanba/Faraday's claim?

IMO, its too idiotic sounding for it to be made up/faked. I was never really on the Faraday is scum anyway wagon, so yeah. =/

[curiouskarmadog]

going to

unvote,

until I can get caught up, job(s) have been kicking ass...hopefully soon

[farside22]

Shanba: fair enough.
I need time to sit and read through Jahudo and a few things I skimmed. I hope to have some time later tonight or tomorrow night.

[Shanba]

-> a.) Can you “boost” yourself?
-> b.) Do players receive PMs being told that they have been boosted?
-> c.) What do you mean by “may help other roles function correctly”? Do roles malfunction? What would happen if your role malfunctioned?

Ok, got my response from patrick:

no, no, and he wouldn't clarify except to say that my role can indeed malfunction if I get too greedy.

Oh, I don't think Patrick has told you all yet, but I'm not here as a permanent replacement. When Patrick asked me to replace in, I told him I would be away for a large part of the scummer with no to limited access. He said that that would still help him because he has another guy lined up but that they are in exams atm. So at some point someone is going to take over from me, probably in a month or so. With any luck they'll have read up before I have to leave so there should be no disconnect between me going and them taking over.

[Jahudo]

It's your reasons for giving bv a free pass.Of your suspects: Nick, Espy and richard can all legitimately have the VI label thrust upon them; indeed, in another game (ongoing) I've actually seen Richard called a VI. So why did bv get a free pass but the other three not?

I didn't give him a free pass. I was pointing out how several tells were probably null.

The tells I thought were null are listed in post 808. I didn't see anyone else (Richard, Nick, Espy) make those kind of statements, which I took as BV being a new player and not considering how their words might come out. So the tells related more to his newbieness than any alignment, because he would be that same newbie whether he was town or scum.

If Javert were scum trying to promote a counterwagon, why did he not pick the obvious one (AKA Richard?)

At that point its possible the priority was not to save BV but to distance from the counter-wagon while not outright bussing a buddy. Its would be different depending on the player; some will have no qualms about bussing at that point, or even earlier. I'm not interested in talking about Javert though, who is likely town as you say.

I'd rather bring it back around to Faraday and my own day 1 decisions, and how you can compartmentalize Faraday being town and me being scum (since we were both on Richard but not on BV)? I've seen the difference, but it points to you being scum.

[Javert]

1.)

Shanba, you claim you cannot "boost" yourself. Can you

target

yourself? Would your "boost" just be unsuccessful?

I suppose I do not see boost/motivator roles very often. I'll have to think about this some more. My first impression is that not being able to boost yourself makes sense -- why should a role be able to make itself more powerful? But then I think about it and seems like you

should

be able to target yourself, and that you would simply be "boosting" yourself back from the negative karma you gain (or positive karma you lose) by using your ability.

2.)

Shanba, what happens if your role "malfunctions" (I realize this is the word I was using, so it may not be strictly accurate)? Can you still use your role? Would you know when your role is malfunctioning?

This is the part of your claim that I'm having the most trouble with, so please be as detailed as possible. Please be clear on what the Mod has expressly told you, and what you are inferring, etc.

[curiouskarmadog]

Thought the game was further along than it really is….updating from page 78,

I have mental notes about CKD pointing to him being scum.

yeah, that is what I thought...this comes from captain false claim. Lets here those mental notes. It is really easy to say you think someone is scum, but back it up with something, or is that just not your style?

@@@

Javert looks town to me, I don’t see where that heat is coming from…

@@@

Farside: you mean ckd's "espy knows the town role pm" thing? I'm pretty sure scum roles would request a confirmation too. I think it's ridiculous to assume a scum couldn't have worked out what ought to be added to the end. Also it smacks of outguessing the mod; patrick and ether are too smart for that. I'm not too fussed about it tbh; some players play that way and I don't think it works, but frankly it's the sort of thing a scum pretending to be scumhunting might not pick up on. So I think it points to ckdtown and not esptown

well, considering I dont have a power role, I dont know how it looks for them. or scum. If it looks similiar, I have a feeling scum will be the first people who will come out and say it looks probably looks similiar, to try to dismiss my point quickly. What is key though, I didnt asked Esp where they sentence was located, he knew where it was located and what it said....

it could have been located anywhere. it could have been located "outside" the box in the PM...there might not even have been a box..some mods dont ask for a confirm, and just say post in game.

Idk, if it turns out Esp is scum, the egg will be on my face....

@@@

Javert, I am not sure I understand why you have 3 lynch candidates, but you are not voting them..that doesn’t make since., is he a 4th candidate or not? I am confused.

@@@

OK, shanba has a claim, but no no one wants to say if they have been boosted or not.

What I don’t understand is why ABR isnt saying anything(if he has been boosted)….he claimed to be a cop, then said it was a fake claim…fine, but if he had such an important role, why fake claim and risk drawing a kill on himself?

[farside22]

Time hasn't been on my side. Hopefully when I get home.
Sorry with my company blocking MS it's hard for me to get online these days.

[boberz]

I am a tad confused now. I dont see any way that this claim can be verified. But one way we can examine it is to see what Faraday had to say during the setup speculation. So Im on it.

Also we have taken our eye slightly off who we plan to lynch, if we can make dybeck go away I will be happy. I think it is him and he seems to be a lot of peoples second or third place candidate.

[Jahudo]

I have dybeck on the town side, or at least unlikely to be mafia with BV and Sando.

Dybecks claim that the BV case is wishy-washy etc is classic attempt at derailing. No reasoning is provided, it's all generalisations and no content, and all seemingly aimed at simply throwing a spanner in the wagon. Followed by the wishy-washy responses to questioning and the desperate leap onto the Esp wagon. I'm not sure how Dybeck got away without that being raised really...

This post came at a time when BV was about even with Richard at 7 or 8 votes. I could see Sando bussing 1 buddy, but not 2 at the same time. Like, lets lynch dybeck or BV and then lynch the other next.

@boberz: do you think dybeck could be an SK or something similar?