Mini 985:Madness at Night: Game over

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

/confirmed

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

@Mod: 2/3 of the people here have confirmed. Will our votes count since 2/3 of the people have confirmed, despite us not officially starting Day 1 yet?

Mod:I'll count the votes excluding hiphop's as he voted before 2/3 were confirmed

Vote: nopointinactingup

He'll slip up eventually.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

First off, let's agree to these contracts (Do not have to say you agree to us):

1. We agree to be active and not get replaced out unless it is simply impossible. Basically means avoid prods and flaking out.
2. To never self-hammer as it is disrespectful to the players and the mod.

Secondly, I think we can balance do both RVS and RQS. You can choose to do both or one of them. I'll be doing both.

RVS question:
1. What Timezone do you live in? This will be important when we get into more important parts of the game and not everyone lives in the same time zone.
2. How much experience do you have with Mafia?
3. How did you end up on Mafiascum?
4. Do you prefer RVS or RQS?
5. Describe your play style (Optional)

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Answering my RVS questions:
1. I live in the Central Time Zone.

2. I started to play Mafia on March 8, 2010 over at Smash World Forums. I've completed six games there and is currently working on a 7th game (Games tend to go faster there, planning on temporarily leaving Desicive Games (Where they host Mafia) for awhile until I feel like I'm a solid player). As for here, I've completed three games so far, first being Newbie 934.

3. I was interested in finding a forum dedicated generally to Mafia after playing a few games on Smash World Forums and someone talked about this site. A few people dislike the site due to it's long deadline, but I didn't see the problem. So I decided to try it out and now I'm hooked (Need to lay off the addiction, thought).

4. Both are good ways to get a game started, but I slightly prefer RQS. RQS gather more information in the long run and reduce the chance of a mislynch during the RVS period.

5. I'm a very active player, especially larger games. I'm commited to the games I play. I'm also trying to catch on a relatively aggressive play style as I am an active player. I also tend to suspect more people then normally.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

SSBF, what was the purpose of asking those questions?

These questions IMO are easier to look back at evidence. With RVS, reactions is basically why it exist. With RQS, you're able to look at the play style and how they answered the question. For example, if I were to notice you bandwagon frequently and attack inexperienced players, I would use that as evidence against you. Now I wouldn't say you're scum because you were doing those thing, but it does raise the possibility of you being scum if that's the case. RQS is basically more of a long-term benefit then RVS.

What kind of discussion were you hoping to start from those questions?

Another good thing about RVS is that you can point out flaws in it that bothers you, which can also help spark discussion. For example, with your answer to #4, you said you preferred RQS to RVS. However, then you called me out for the questions. What type of questions during RQS would you consider beneficial?

Also, are you scum?

No I am not. BTW, I remember this question from Mini 955: Classic Mafia where you asked Seacore this question.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

@

All

, do you generally prefer to lead or follow?

I haven't really done much leading in bandwagons, but that's something I like doing. I also like to follow when I think I have a legitimate case against a person and I have original thoughts on it.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

SSBF?...Do you agree with my policy vote?

I actually do. This is a solid way to gain reactions from him and put pressure on him. It also reminds him that we are not going to underestimate him again.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

SSBF, what do you think of the attacks on hiphop?

Not really a fan of it. I find it surprising that hiphop is actually receiving serious votes. Was his response to my question obnoxious? Maybe. Was it scummy? Not at all, as I did give people a choice between particapating in RVS, RQS or both.

Oh and you never answered all the SSBF questions, some people might find you scummy for that.

It isn't an obligation for people to answer my questions. I gave them the option of either doing both, just RVS, or just RQS.

What kind of helpful evidence do you think could be drawn from those questions? Aside from question 4, I don't think any of those questions help to find scum. (For example, your timezone has no relevance to your allignment in this game)

I want to look how they answer the question. Now granted, I did give them the option of not particapating in it (Like hiphop for example, who basically said "no" to all of my five questions). Play style can be helpful evidence because if they were to follow how they played as either scum or town, other people can use the question to help determind if they are more likely to be a townie or a scum.

Knowing time zones is important because we may need you during an important part of the game and without having any clue, we may try to call you out now even thought you're asleep in like Europe. Now it doesn't exactly help catch scums, but it does give us an idea on when you can come on the site and play Mafia.

You have avoided my question. What kind of discussion were you hoping to start from those questions?

I want people to react in how a person answers a question as well (Although that is an lesser priority for my questions, it was still an important part of me asking these questions). For example, hiphop is currently receiving a lot of heating for his obnoxious way of answering my question. People can also refer back to this as evidence to help determind if they're more likely to be town or not.

Looks like Random Voting/Question Stage is over.

Unvote

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Why do you think this?

What isn't random?

Why just an unvote?

We already have something to work on. Although it isn't much, it is enough that my RVS vote is no longer needed in this game.

A major example of what isn't random is people accusing hiphop of being obnoxious with my answers (It might be, but I don't find it scummy IMO).

I do not have a read on anyone yet. I'll make a vote once I find a scummy read.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Didn't really like llamaeatataco's #68. There's two things that I especially disliked about it:

There's a difference between blatantly saying 'I am voting this person for a stupid reason' and

just not retyping reasons already given.

Just because you don't want to parrot a reason doesn't mean you can't add to a case that you agree with.

I would vote you, but that would be full of omgus and fail and I don't like to do that, so I'll just FoS:Sando and leave it at that.

That really does sound like an OMGUS reply to Sando. If you haven't noticed with your almost year of experience in Mafia, OMGUS is not solely related to voting a person because they voted for you. OMGUS is also related to a flimsy attack on another person because they attacked you.

I don't have a better target at the moment and I do like Sando's case on llamaeatataco, so

Unvote, Vote: llamaeatataco

.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

I know there's more to OMGUS, but judging by how he's acted so far I'm almost certain that's what he'd call it and he'd get all pissy. He doesn't seem to comprehend everything that I say...

I highly disagree with this comment. Betweeen the argument with you and Sando, you've been slightly more aggessive then him. Therefore, this argument doesn't really make much sense.

wtf? 'you wagoned and didn't give a reason'
'sorry, I was saying I like this reason right here, and here's what it was and why I liked it'

'you didn't give a reason you're scum!'

That is the condensed version of his case.

No, this is basically what I see:

You voted AlmasterGM since it wasn't random, which sounds like bandwagoning. That made you look hypocritical.

*You delayed explaining why you found AlmasterGM scummy until Sando voted for you.

*ISO: 3, you basically made an OMGUS reply to Sando, trying to cover that up by saying "It would be full-blown OMGUS if I voted for him!".

*: Things that I've just brought up.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

(I don't even want a lynch this early anyway, he hasn't incriminated himself enough yet.)

Your vote is currently on Sando. If you're putting a vote on a person, that means you are supporting a lynch on that particular person eventually. Now granted, it doesn't mean you're gung-ho on the lynch now as you pointed out, but eventually, if you still have the vote on that person, you'll want him dead.

His play seems different from Mini 955. I don't really know why. His play just seems off.

This is correct. The reason why it's different is because I absolutely hated my play in that game, going as far to call it my 2nd worst game of Mafia I've ever played (1st was Smash Bros. Mafia in Smash World Forums). I tend to play slightly better then in that game.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

@crypto: Actually, I did acknowledge that you had a vote on me. The reason why I didn't persude you is because you didn't explain why you find me suspicious. I acknowledge SpyreX's and Wickedestjr's reasons because they at least explained why they found me suspicious.

Even if the reason isn't "interesting", at

least

explain why you find me suspicious.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Prehaps it's just me, but I really did not like nopointinactingup's early claim. I really don't see the benefit of claiming this early in the game when we still have plenty of time left (I guaratee you the exact same result would happen if he claimed closer to the end of the game).

You did? Where?

I acknowledge Wickedestjr in responses to him. As for you, I read through your post voting me, which was enough to get me to acknowledge it and understand it. I didn't really have to make a response.

Yeah, what's your point?

Basically, you contradicted yourself in the same post. You said you didn't want anyone lynched yet, then you take back the statement by voting Sando.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Unvote

, as I don't think llamaeatataco is that scummy anymore.

Spyrex is lurking. What's your point? Lurking =/= scum all the time, but we could pressure vote him or something. IMO lurkers are fine d1 lynches actually...

unvote, vote:spyrex

What's the big difference between here? Perhaps its a crypto vote and hiphop prepping for a jump?

Whoosha

Unvote, Vote: Llama

This is an OMGUS reply and vote. I honestly don't see how that quote is scummy at all. Why was that quote scummy?

What exactly did you do to change your playstyle?

I tend to get more emotional then most people, so one thing I obviously want to stop doing is AtE. I'm known for my "jump before thinking" play over in Smash World Forums, so I want to get rid of that as well. Basically, I'm trying to find a solid game play that actually suits me well.

@llama and SSBF (who are both online) - What do you think about my points against Sando and SpyreX?

Sando: I actually like it. It's currently giving me a slight scum read on him. Need to focus more on him.

SpyreX: Agree with the case surrounding him (As a matter of fact,

Vote: SpyreX

). However, unless the case that's being thrown around has been influencing you, I'm not sure how meta reasons warrants a vote. Do you have anything else you don't like about him that no one else has pointed out?

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Do you still feel this way? Is he scummy for it?

1. Not anymore. After you explained why an early millar's claim is beneficial, my opinion on the claim changed for the better.

2. No as well. Even if I still felt the same way, all I would say that it was anti-town, because it puts you at a bigger risk for being killed. I do think it's pro-town now, thought.

What exactly do you agree with on the case on Spyrex?

1. His vote on llamaeatataco seems like bandwagoning and OMGUS to me. Maybe not clear cut, but as llamaeatataco said, his attempt to hide it was hideous.

2. Was dodging questions until you had to ask the questions to SpyreX again. Sando asked SpyreX a few questions in #103. SpyreX ended up not answering the question in his next post (#104).

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

What questions is it I'm avoiding?

The question that you were dodging was this one:

Spyrex, if SSBF hadn't said they found noone suspicious, since you haven't really expressed any concerns about anyone else, presumably you'd be in the same situation he is in? Who else do you find scummy? Why?

This took you nearly two days to answer. Given your activity track record, unless you were in a ton of games, there wasn't an excuse it took you so long to answer the question.

SSBF, who exactly are you 'agreeing' with regarding the points on Spyrex? Your 2 points are in answer to being asked what parts of the case on Spyrex you agree with, but those points seem to be your own, not someone you agree with.

The closest I could find is SpyreX being hypocritical once, which you pointed out in this (part of a) post:

Attacking someone for not having a scum read then basically providing no reasoning beyond that that itself is scummy, seems like simply wanting to attack SSBF and not wanting to be called a hypocrite.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

I'm a Town Cop. In addition to being able to vote and voice my opinion, every Night, I have the ability to investigate a person of my choice.

I'm going to respond to anything that I'm missing. I also promise a full analysis of everyone before the Day ends.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Is SSBF ignoring the votes on him?

I haven't really talked about the votes on me, so I would say I ignored them a bit much. However, if I were to react to the votes on me, it probably wouldn't be a good outcome.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

WTF are you doing? Are you even at L-1? Are you even going to be lynched? This claim reeks of fake.

The reason I claimed is because of two reasons:
1. I am (Or was) one of the most popular lynch candidate.
2. Deadline was very close, so the only option I had was to claim now or face death. You should know what happen in Mini 955 when I claimed Vanilla Townie instead of Town Cop.

If it is, how do you get so lucky to do it two days in a row, and I have never done it.

Would you mind clarifying that question up? I'm not really understanding it. The best I get out of it is "How did you manage to get a cop role twice in a row while I have never received one?"

ssbf - why did you claim early?

I was the most popular bandwagon at the time with four votes. A more important reason is because deadline was approaching (Only two days before the deadline extension). I two choices:
1. Keep my mouth shut and only claim Vanilla Town, thus getting lynched and flipping Town Cop again.
2. Claim honestly by claiming Cop.

@hiphop: I promised an analysis before the end of the Day (Day 1). Even thought I'm late by your deadline, I am now about to work on my analysis. It will be up by the end of today (Real time).

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

@AlmasterGM: I read on the Wiki and it said that a Gunsmith investigate if they have a gun, not detecting alignments. Not all roles that has a gun is a scum. For example. my Cop role. If Charter were to investigate me, I guarateen you the result will be that I have a gun.

As for my opinion, I believe it for now. That may change depending on if his investigation is true or not. Therefore, I agree with hiphop in where Charter should investigate nopointinactingup.

Back to making my analysis. Currently on page 3. Once I finish reading the thread, I'll take notes of scum tells, ISO everyone, type out my opinion on everyone, and then post it.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Reading update; I was at a neighbor's house playing Upward (A board game similar to Scrabble, but with a few twist). It was pretty fun, but it lasted about one hour and a half. No computer access during the time. However, I have completely finished reading the thread and started to ISO people (Currently on my first person, llamaeatataco). So yeah, my analysis is still coming.

Also, if you have any questions during my analysis, ask now. I will either make a small post answering it or incorperate it into my analysis.

@SpyreX: Your last post was good and I will admit that, however, one flaw of that post is that you forgot to take into account that there are eleven players in the game. Therefore, a two Mafia team is even more unlikely then before. They're rare in 12-players set-up anyway. In that case, a 3rd party role is more likely.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Okay, here's my analysis as promised.

Unvote

:

AlmasterGM:

Both ISO: 3 and ISO: 5 are basically contradictions of each other (hiphop was right when he said it was interesting). AlmasterGM did promise to catch-up, but it took him five days to make another post (Promised to catch-up on June 14, 2010, doesn't do so until June 18, 2010), but that's a very minor scum tell at worst and a null tell at best, especially considering that post was good and that he did say he was a busy guy. Another thing to note was that I noticed him distancing from me. On his catch-up post, he said that he didn't get the case on me. Then when I claimed, he said I was probable scum, which I really don't see how a claim could be that suspicious. Those are minor reasons, thought, and none of them are really scummy, with the possible exception of the distancing. He has been contributing a fair bit in the game. I like how he along with hiphop helped get this game started up. His counter-attacks on hiphop is good and his case on llamaeatataco is as good if not better then Sando's. I'm getting a slight town read from him.

charter

: First five post doesn't say that much, with the exception of ISO: 2. But it made him look hypocritical on him because he wasn't active at the time as well. Saying that I'm lying is odd as well, especially since I highly doubt we have a Day Gunsmith (Charter, are you a Day Gunsmith?). Nice to see him contributing, thought, and he does make some decent points about nopointinactingup and llamaeatataco. For now, I have a null read on him.

crypto

: The majority of crypto's post has basically been one-liners. Some of his posts could have been grouped up with other posts. I'd also like him to explain why he switched his vote from nopointinactingup to SpyreX so quickly. Also with his lynch candidates, he doesn't really push them that much. He has a slightly scummy read from me. Only thing that saves him from a vote is that he doesn't repeately commit scum tells.

hiphop

: His vote on AlmasterGM does sound like a bit of OMGUS, although not purely. Aside from that, he has been one of the best players here. He has been contributing more then most other players here, as I do admire his dedication. His defense against AlmasterGM's claim I will admit is good (Really, this is the rare circumstance where both the attacker and the defender are actually getting town reads from me). I also like how he push cases against other people and asks difficult questions. Overall, I have a strong town read on him.

llamaeatataco:

First scum tell from him was ISO: 1, where he voted for AlmasterGM. He didn't explain the vote at the time, yet he said it wasn't a random vote. A second thing to note is that in ISO: 2, he said he wouldn't vote Sando because it would be full of fail and OMGUS. OMGUS is not strictly in vote form. It can also apply to flimsy attacks against a person who's attacking you, so it is kind of an OMGUS. He later contradicted himself in ISO: 3 by voting Sando, making it pure OMGUS vote on him. To top it all off, I do agree that he is being very defensive. He's fairly scummy and I wouldn't mind him lynched.

nopointinactingup

: During the early part of the game, he doesn't say much. I will admit he does improve later on in the game. However, like others, his millar claim does catch my attention. I really don't have much else to say about him, except that I would like for him to explain his suspicion on Sando (Unless of course it's basically agreeing). Although I would be willing to lynch him under the very last resort, he does have a null read from me.

podium123456

: First thing that helped distinguish him is that he manage to make a decent point against crypto, basically saying he asked almost everyone to explained there town/scum list yet place a vote on me without explaination. His analysis on June 14, 2010 is good, I will admit, but it also felt force, since it was basicall a respond to hiphop, who told him to take a stance on someone. I will say that he is one of the better players in the game, thought. His scum hunting technique is somewhat unique and works. He has also commited almost no scum tells in the game so far. Overall, I'm giving him a considerable town read.

Sando

: I find it weird that in ISO: 2, he dedicated half of that posts to hiphop, but then votes for llamaeatataco. He has definently done a fair bit of defending on AlmasterGM and a few posts has consisted of him defending me a bit. I'm not sure why he's defending people who can defend themself. Most of his post contains of attacking/defending against llamaeatataco, hiphop, and SpyreX, occasionally going to the point where tunneling is present. Although he has contributed some form of contents in the game, I'm getting a slightly scummy read on him.

SpyreX

: I have yet to complete a game with him, so to be honest, he's a tough read. I still call llamaeatataco's original vote some form of an OMGUS reply, although not purely. He has also been defensive. But to be honest, I now see the defense a lot more genuine then the one from llamaeatataco. He has also been scum hunting a bit and I do apperciate that. Also, his last big post was good (Just one flaw). I need to seriously reconsider my read on him, so I'll give him a null read.

Wickedestjr

: I personally thought his vote on SpyreX was horrible, basically off meta. Even with his explaination, I still don't believe it. His last post said he had stronger suspicion them SpyreX, yet he has a vote on him. But I will give him credit because he has made a great case against Sando that actually started to make he suspicous of him and he has been contributing a lot. Basically, his town tells outweight his scum tells. I give him a slight town read.

Probable Townies

:
hiphop
podium123456

Possible Townies

:
AlmasterGM
Wickedestjr

Null

:
SpyreX
charter
nopointinactingup

Possible Scums

:
crypto
Sando

Probably Scum

:
llamaeatataco

With that all said,

Vote: llamaeatataco

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

SSBF's strongest lynch being "He's fairly scummy and I wouldn't mind him lynched" isn't exactly a strong read, and the fact that none of the other claimants are listed as either possible or probable, both being listed as null, seems pretty damn odd.

My definition of who I think a strong read and what you think is a strong read is different. I personally think that a fairly scummy read is a fairly strong scum read on a person. On top of that, I don't see how it is a problem to have both claimants as null reads, especially since I don't think they're that scummy and that I have better lynch candidates.

How exactly are you going to know if the investigation is true or not SSBF?

If you mean on if he is telling the truth on his investigation, it's going to be this:

Let's say chater does investigate a person and he said it turns up that person has a gun. We choose to lynch the person. If the person who wouldn't normally have a gun turns up to be one of those roles (Doctor, Vanilla Townie), then we can assume that he is lying and possibly a Mafia role. If that person gets lynch and turns up that he does have a role that would have a gun, then I am completely willing to believe charter's role. Sure it doesn't tell alignments, but at least it would tell he's telling the truth. The only way to really find out about a person's alignment is if the person chater investigate turns up that the person doesn't have a gun. Then we can assume that the person is town.

It's like with the Cop role where you can't completely believe that a person that turns up innocent in an investigation is town. You might have investigated a Mafia Godfather or a Serial Killer (Both are usually investigated-immuned) whom turned up Innocent. But with the exception of a Millar's claim, we can believe a Guilty investigation.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

I think this was said by a few other players already, but I also think that it will probably be a good idea for SSBF to investigate charter.

I looked through Page 9 to that post and I have yet to see anyone else support me investigating charter. I may have missed some quotes, but who else supported me investigating charter?

@hiphop: Just want to say thanks for clarifying that up. But do you still want me to answer that question? I have an answer, but it may not be the one you want.

As for the mis-fact on my analysis, that is a good point. I have not neglected to realize that this was during the move. I was about to get on to Charter for that, but he posted contents shortly after the move was completed. However, the reason why I got on to AlmasterGM when I did is because unlike others (charter did as well, but explaination above explains why I didn't get on to him), AlmasterGM actually promised contents. If I remember correctly, we finished moving on June 15, 2010. AlmasterGM did not post contents until June 18, 2010. Yes he was posting in other games that's ongoing on June 16 and June 17. This is why I felt it was potentially scummy.

@AlmasterGM: Why did you post in ongoing games on June 16 and June 17, yet completely neglected this game during those times?

When is new deadline btw?

It's on June 28th, 2010 I believe.

I will say that he is one of the better players in the game, thought. His scum hunting technique is somewhat unique and works.

Can you elaborate on the bolded portion?

podium123456 tends to put in a lot of good contents in his posts. His post is relatively organized as well, with quotes on the top and overall thoughts on the bottom, showing that he's willing to both scum hunt and defend himself at the same time, which is kind of unique as well. podium123456 has only flipped town once, but there is a chance that he is town again. If he is town again, he could be a potentially valueable player later on.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

So wait, the idea is that 2 strong investigative roles is somehow offset by a miller, a role that will invariably D1 claim, throwing out a lot of the downside? Added to the fact that one of those strong investigative roles can actually confirm/deny the miller claim? Nope, not happening, that's insanely strong for town.

If we were to add other power roles, then I could see your point. However, let's assume that those are the only three town roles that aren't Vanilla Townies. Do you still think that two investigative roles, one Millar role, and the rest being Vanilla Townies still give town a massive advantage? Without any other power roles?

Because I was more behind in this game than I was in those.

I can't really call this a good excuse. I read your last post before the forum move and the first post you've made after the forum move. Within those times, only thirty-one or so posts were made between both posts I've mentioned. That isn't much to catch-up on from my perspective. Thirty-one posts shouldn't have taken two days since the forum re-opened to make a decent-sized post that looks like to be done within a couple hours at longest.

HEY EVERYONE - Llama hasn't posted in over 5 days.

Mmmm, I love the smell of "trying to hide and let the wagon derail itself in mountains of game theory."

This post is scummy. I'm actually surprised that people actually gave a free pass on your "Oh, I was more behind in this game then others." excuse, yet you're going after llamaeatataco for not being able to post due to V/LA.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

2 investigative roles is retardedly good, yes SSBF. For reference, I've only played 1 game with more than 1 investigative role in it as town, and Spyrex modded it I believe (PYP). There were also more players in that game, and the investigative roles still dominated the game and the scum never stood a chance. And that was a tracker/gunsmith combo, cop/gunsmith would be more broken I feel.

How many investigative roles were in the game? Were there any other town roles aside from the investigative role? Also, was there a variation of a millar? I for one still see a gunsmith/cop combination not as unusually strange, especially when we have a millar in the mix, even in an eleven-player set-up like this. You could at least link to the game.

hiphop asks a few good questions here and I suggest everyone answer these:

Does anybody think that having two investigative roles, a miller, and no other roles is balanced?

I'd say yes. I honestly don't see how having just two investigative roles, a miller, and no other town PR's is near impossible to see. This is why I currently believe charter's claim for the moment (nopointinactingup's claim depend on how he plays, right now, I'm null on him).

What if there were 2 sk's and no mafia in this setup? Is it believable?

It's possible, as this does remind me of Newbie 5 in Smash World Forums, except that game had two scums factions instead of the hypothetical two Indies and no Mafia faction you're suggesting. However, that sounds a bit too themish to me. I'm not ready to rule it out as a possibility, but I just don't see it happening.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

@nopointinactingup: You originally claimed Miller. Then you later said "I'm a Death Miller". Why didn't you claim Death Miller during your Miller claim early in the Day? On top of that, I heard that Death Miller's role are controversial and extremely rare. Right now, I'm no longer believing nopointinactingup's claim.

Right Day1 like I really have something to contribute that much. I told you I'm not the kind to make analysis on Day1 because I think it's easy for me to be right as it is to be wrong. If you guys are measuring the amount of scum-hunting and "doing something" in Day1 then you are obviously either bluffing or think you're doing more than you're really doing. Lynching me will certainly put you guys in a huge disadvantage and you know exactly why.

1. I don't like how you're basically saying we don't have much to contribute. Now it is true that we have the least amount of information to work on Day 1, but I'm not going to let that stop me from finding scums.

2. Games can go a lot faster then this game and I'm talking about Mini Normal's. One ongoing game I'm in started after this game accumlated over 400 posts in Day 1 and is currently in Day 2.

3. hiphop said it best when he said that if you are a miller, town is still at an advantage with two investigative roles.

You NEED to know who I am. That information is INVALUABLE to the town.

Since I doubt you're a death miller, the only way to find out about your alignment now is to lynch you. If you're a miller, town still has a major advantage over scums.

I also realized that nopointinactingup has been acting defensive with his recent posts. Combined with his self-vote and I think nopointinactingup is a better lynch candidate then llamaeatataco.

unvote, Vote: nopointinactingup

L-1

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

@Mod: I apperciate the deadline extension. Thank you very much.

SSBF/Wicked... where you guys at?

I'm here. It's a bit difficult to post on stuff, thought, due to all the craziness of this thread lately.

Podium123456, the posts since a few pages ago have been way overly defensive for my tolerance. I don't see the problem for defending yourself, but you are going way overboard with your defense lately, even to the point where you are calling people names. Sure I find your defense mostly townie and is not willing to lynch you yet, but I'm really starting to feel that it's becoming an AtE defense instead of a normal defense.

Your case on Wickedestjr does bring up some good points, thought, and I will keep a closer eye on him for the remainder of the game. Not enough to vote him, but I will look further into him.

HEY, THANKS FOR COMPLETELY IGNORING WHAT'S BEING DISCUSSED ABOUT WICKED.

You called out Sando for not ignoring discussion about Wicked, yet you left AlmasterGM and charter alone. What made Sando not posting discussion about Wickedestjr more important then AlmasterGM and charter ignoring it?

I also looked back and you're ignoring a question:

How is a reaction test scummy, or silly?

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Concerning sando. As you have seen, he expressed that he is willing to vote off one of his town reads versus someone with a scum case. Do you feel this deserves your vote? Why or why not.

This is a very good point you've made here and I can see. I would under no circumstances vote off a town read. It makes me feel that Sando is desperate to lynch someone. If not for the fact that he's already lynched, I possibly would have voted him because of it.

SSBF- Why not Sando

I do find Sando scummy, so I don't hate the fact that he's being lynched. However, I do think that llamaeatataco and nopointinactingup are scummier in my books (I seriously need to clear up my head a little).

I dont know who asked that, but i remember seeing the question, and im pretty sure it wasnt directed at me. If it was, tell me who asked it.

I think it was directed at you, by nopointinactingup.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Night 1, I investigated AlmasterGM, mainly because I felt there was a potential connection between him and Sando, who flipped scum.

I received my result. AlmasterGM is town.

Neverthless, AlmasterGM's claim is really surprising and to be honest, I don't believe it. Two investigative roles doesn't sound like overboard, but three does. I know that AlmasterGM is town, but the only way I'm even going to have a chance at believing it is if he is right about llamaeatataco is scum.

So therefore, here are the possible scenario's:
1. Me and AlmasterGM are the cops (Doubt it)
2. I'm the real cop and charter is the gunsmith (Believe this)
3. AlmasterGM is the cop and charter is the gunsmith (I know I'm town, so no)

I know I'm the cop, so obviously not #3. The first scenario is also very unlikely and too themish for my taste, so I believe that charter and me are the gunsmith and cops respectively.

@AlmasterGM: What if llamaeatataco is actually town? What if I get killed and flip town? What if we're actually both cops? What would be your reaction?

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Are you doubting your result?

No I am not. I am confident that AlmasterGM is town. Just that I currently don't buy the cop claim. I also have yet to see a Mini Normal with two cops, regardless of variations. However, the evidences that you provided is something to look over.

What is he a lying townie?

He could potentially be lying, but town has no reasons to lie, especially not about there role. If me and AlmasterGM are truly town, this can be proven if llamaeatataco flips scum/AlmasterGM flips town.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

@hiphop: No I am not lying about my result. However, thinking about it, I am starting to consider that the situation you presented is very well possible.

And another thought. If we lynch charter ToDay, this lynch will most strongly reflect SpyreX. I say this because SpyreX has many times suggested that I am lying but charter is not, indicating that they are more likely of the same alignment then others here. Given that flavor evidence provided by hiphop, which favors a cop role over a gunsmith role, charter is more likely to be scum. If a charter scum flip happens, I will investigate SpyreX Night 2.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

@hiphop and llamaeatataco: I disagree that we get nothing out of a llamaeatataco lynch.

From investigating AlmasterGM, I got a Town result from him. AlmasterGM claims that he investigated llamaeatataco and got a Mafia result from him.

If llamaeatataco flips scum like AlmasterGM said, then that means I am insane cop and AlmasterGM is scum. If AlmasterGM is wrong and llamaeatataco is town, then he is insane cop.

With charter, we can hit one scums and look for connections with other scumbags based on evidence. Lynching llamaeatataco runs the risk of hitting a townie, but if llamaeatataco is scum, then AlmasterGM is scum as well. Basically, we potentially have two scums caught. If llamaeatataco is scum, then town can wrap up a game without a mislynch. I'm willing to take this risk.

Vote: llamaeatataco

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

/prodded

Alright, I'm here.

As for the AlmasterGM is possible scum theory, I feel like an idiot after thinking about it. The fact that I have a "Town" investigation on him does mean that he is town, just that I wasn't thinking right at the time. This is basically the answer to post #603.

I think charter is the most likely second scum. With the evidence that hiphop provided, I am willing to believe it. Now I will still keep focus on llamaeatataco, but I don't think that's where my vote is suppose to be. So,

unvote, vote: charter

.

What is this? You said you doubt that both you and AGM are cops, then go on to say AGM is town but unlikely to be lying. Does this mean you think yourself as scum because AGM can only be town and unlikely lying if he's really cop.

Based on my investigation, I am confident in my town read on AlmasterGM. However, I do find it odd that AlmasterGM would claim cop out of the blue. But it is more likely that we have two cops instead of a cop and a gunsmith. Three investigative roles would be broken in town's favor.

As for the question, no. AlmasterGM being cop would not determind my alignment unless he were to investigate me, and I don't see the point for a cop confirming a cop town while both cops can hit different targets.

SSBF, why didn't you investigate charter?

I was planning on doing so, but Night 1, I felt there was a potential connection between AlmasterGM and Sando, the latter of which flipped scum. So I decided to investigate the person who I thought had the strongest link to Sando. And that's why I got a Town investigation on him. If charter doesn't end up being lynched ToDay like I hope, then I'll investigate him Night 2.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Night 2, I investigated charter. He got a Mafia result from me.

I also need to re-read some people to look for potential connections.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Me and AlmasterGM are town. Hiphop is very likely town as well, due to his play and contributation to the game. nopointinactingup is likely town as well. That means the remaining scum are in {crypto, SpyreX, and Wickedestjr}. crypto's play is considerably towny and I'm null on Wickedestjr.

So by process of elmination, I think the last scum is SpyreX. But not just by PoE.

The main reason for this is his obvious connection between him and charter. Since charter flips scum, the evidence suggesting that SpyreX is scum as well is pretty damning. Up until the very end, he exhibited a town read on charter, showing no willingness to think otherwise. This goes as far as to ignoring the possibilities of crucial evidence that point to charter being scum such as charter not wanting to lynch Sando and the Day 1 lynch flavor, which favor my claim over charter's. He said numerous times that he believed charter's claim over mine.

So with that said,

Vote: SpyreX

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

You might want to look at this quote from ISO: 49 by SpyreX:

SIR YES SIR

Unvote, Vote: Sando

I'm on record, again, that there is a scum between charter and SSBF.

I'm also on record that today has been more retarded than most.

I'm additionally on record that if this is a town flip llama dies soon.

And if that is a scum flip podium dies.

Sando's lynch went through Day 1 and he flipped scum. Night 1, podium123456 died. How did SpyreX successfully predict that podium123456 would die soon since Sando flipped scum? This makes me wonder if he had some sort of information about podium123456's alignment before he flipped.

I also didn't want to lynch charter or Sando (although I admit I warmed up a little to Sando toward the end of day one). I also was inclined to believe charter's claim, possibly at the expense of believing yours. What's the difference between me and Spy?

1. Reading your ISO, the interaction between you and charter is slightly townie from my perspective. SpyreX's interaction with charter is scummy.

2. You merely had a town read on charter. SpyreX went on and on and on about why we should believe charter's claim instead of mine on Day 1. He also expressed that he didn't want charter lynched a few times, even thought the lynch flavor Day 1 favored my claim instead of charter's.

3. SpyreX put absolutely no pressure on charter. He didn't question him on anything that could be taken as a scum action (charter not wanting to lynch Sando/Day 1 lynch flavor that didn't suit his claim) or brought up anything against charter. He made disagreements with everyone else in at least some degree. Sure you weren't supportive of his lynch, but you didn't say "OMG charter is town!" with every post that referred to him.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

It seems that crypto is at L-1. Looks like I need to re-read his posts to see if he is scummy or not like people have been saying.

Unless of course AGM faked to get llama lynched.

Could you explain why AlmasterGM could be scum under this circumstance? My investigation of AlmasterGM Day 1 turned up town. Since AlmasterGM's Guilty investigation of llamaeatataco was proven wrong, he is confirmed townie in my book and as far as I'm concerned, an insane cop as well.

Wait something's fishy. Since Charter's scum, I thought we have no roleblocker? So why does AGM get No Result?

This is a good question. We have to remember that charter flipped vanilla Mafia, which is the equilvalent of a Mafia Goon. The other scum flip, Sando, was from Day 1, who was a Mafia Godfather. With AlmasterGM being roleblocked, I assume that the last scum is indeed a roleblocker. The roleblocking probably isn't town-intended either, further solidfying my theory that the last scum could be a roleblocker.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

And would people please stop using POE. This isn't a multiple-choice test, very little is confirmed, and there's NO POE. There's just "people who you think are town" and "people who you think are scum."

PoE is another important Mafia tool that we should use to our advantage. You are confirmed townie, that's PoE already. PoE will lead us to the last scum if we use it well. Now we can't neglect scum hunting while we're at it, but PoE will still be helpful to town, especially with two scums down and most likely one more to go.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Reading through Wickedestjr's ISO, I'm more inclined to believe that he's town for now since he pushed for both Sando's and charter's lynch in some form, never had a town read on either scums, and I liked his overall play, although the read isn't as strong as hiphop's, so I'll still keep a close eye on him.

@SpyreX: You claim that Wickedestjr is a non-entity, basically meaning he's non-existant in this game. Do you think there's a scummy connection between him and Sando/charter? If so, please provide evidence of this.

@crypto: You have yet to claim. Please do so.

At this rate, I really don't care of which of {crypto, SpyreX} gets lynched ToDay. Both are most likely to be the last remaining scum in this game and based off them receiving the most attention and there little back-to-back argument, I think they're different alignments.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Why don't we go back to playing mafia and actually lynch the scummiest person?

And now for setup speculation-...

You're suggesting that we go back to lynching the scummiest person in the game. Then you do setup speculation. Set-up speculation is not parallel with scum hunting and definently not the most important thing to do in a Mafia game.

---

Take his recent case on Spyrex(where his vote is). He said that spyrex is scum, because he said charter was town.

It isn't simply because "SpyreX thought charter was town, therefore, SpyreX is scum". As explained before, he explictly defended charter's claim Day 1 while attacking mine and mentioned a few times Day 2 that charter was town. I personally take that as scum buddying scum.

Almaster said he wasn't lynching charter, does that make him scum too?

The difference is that AlmasterGM is a confirmed townie and didn't explictly defend charter in some way or form like SpyreX did.

Crypto rebuffed his argument and the only thing he has said agaisnt spyrex was a point that wasn't even true. Yet he continues to keep his vote on Spyrex.

The reason why I haven't really said much about SpyreX connection between him and charter is because he hasn't really attempt to refute my original argument in the first place. However, I will happily provide quote evidence of SpyreX's connection between him and charter.

Not only that but saying someone is a different alignment just because they had an argument is completely floundering. What makes you so sure that Crypto and Spyrex cannot be two townies.

What makes me think that Crypto and SpyreX are likely to be of different alignments is because they both suspects each other and want each other dead (SpyreX to a lesser extend with Crypto, but still). I am willing to lynch both of them because of the connections they share with charter/Sando, thus I think they're the most likely the last scum out of the seven remaining players here.

I had an argument with Alamaster. We must be different alignments.

The difference between the you Vs. AlmasterGM argument and the crypto Vs. SpyreX argument is this:

I have a strong town read on you and AlmasterGM is confirmed townie. crypto and SpyreX are the best lynches for ToDay. You and AlmasterGM's argument sounds like townie Vs. townie argument while the crypto Vs. SpyreX argument resemble more of a townie Vs. scum argument.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Deadine for a lynch is in five days. Just wanted for you to know.

Anyway, since discusssions are getting relatively low, I may need to re-read Day 3 to see if I can find anything to bring up.

Also, is anyone beside me is getting gut feelings that hiphop might be scum? Granted, I'm not going to be pushing for his lynch yet since the evidences support that he is town, but the gut town feeling is not really there anymore. Maybe I need to look him up in ISO to see if it's more then gut feeling.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

@nopointinactingup: I personally approve of it. It worked last time, so it should help us out here this time.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Top two suspects:
SpyreX and crypto.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

@AlmasterGM: Since you're an insane cop, if you end up getting a "Guilty" result, assume that the person is town. If you get an "Innocent" result, push for the lynch of that person.

---

WIFOM. Unless someone speaks up and says otherwise(to lazy to go skim day one) I am pretty sure that everybody thought charter's claim day 1 was legit, and you were more likely scum. Not only that but you are using omgus in this argument, by saying he was attacking me, when charter made the more townie move in counter-claiming day 1, and there wasn't anything day 1 that said otherwise. As for him calling charter town day 2-just because you know your alignment does not mean that people should follow you, especially when you make cases like this. And also the majority of the town was either
A) unsure of charter
B)thought he was town
So really there is no case. You're kind of stretching.

1. If I remember correctly, I remember nopointinacting up calling BS on charter's claim Day 1. Not everyone thought charter's claim was legitimate.

2. By Day 1, are you including the lynch scene? If so, the Day 1 lynch scene definently didn't favor charter's claim.

3. You, me, llamaeatataco, and Wickedestjr on Day 2 thought that charter was likely scum. When you take charter out of equation, that's eight people. Which means that 50% thought charter was likely scum, 50% thought otherwise.

So did you find anything? Don't leave me hanging. Either i am town or not. What is it? i hope this isn't another OMGUS move.

The reason I believe I will surive is because out of all the games I have played, the town vig and mafia have never nk'd me. ( I am excluding the time where I replaced in and scum nk'd me.) Therefore I assume the mods make me un-NK'd-able. If I am nk'd tonight I would probably laugh for a whole week. Maybe.

How do you know that you're going to survive the entire game without being NK'd? The only way you can possibly be absolutely confident is that if you were scum yourself and if you avoided suspicion from enough people to be lynched. You have been scum at least twice, once you were lynched and once you survived to the end. If you're town, your theory can easily be proven wrong by being NK'd in this game.

most likely when i am dead

What made you change your opinion on you saying you'll most likely avoid a Night Kill? Do you think there's a chance that you'll be lynched? Are you taking back your theory that you are not going to be NK'd in this game? Or is it something else entirely?

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Ugh, fail on my part. Accidentally posted under my modding account.

You counted incorrectly (I hope so).

I always had a vote on SpyreX. So did crypto, but he unvoted. Wickedestjr voted SpyreX and crypto put his vote back at SpyreX. SpyreX is at L-1.

Same message.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Guys, I have received cop results.

Night 3, I investigated SpyreX. I recieved a Mafia result.

Vote: SpyreX

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Yay for me, first win on site!

But seriously, good game everyone.

More thoughts later.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

So SSBf are you really a vanilla, who fake claimed?

No, I am a Town Cop.

I'm going to be really honest here, I was really surprised that I managed to survive to the end, let alone not get lynched Day 1, as I will admit, my play was less then standard. But to be honest, this is my first win on this site, so I guess a win is a win.

Town did really great in terms of working together to find scums. PoE worked out very well in favor of the town, despite AlmasterGM's argument otherwise. Only one mislynch and that was due to an error. I feel great that I managed to vote for 2/3 of the Mafia, which is good. The Mafia Godfather's lynch (Sando) put town at a big advantage, so I had no worries about AlmasterGM flipping scum.

The fact that we had absolutely no replacements is an amazing achievement for a Mafia game, as we would usually expect two to four replacements in a game. I'm in an ongoing game that already had four replacements and on Day 2, yet this game got none, that's something to brag about.

But if there's one thing we can all agree on, this game was crazy.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

I have some suggestions for Hayker.

Given the set-up, it looks pretty unbalanced from my perspective. Try to balance it out, although that doesn't mean it should be the generic Cop + Doctor, VT's, and three scums set-up. Did you review your set-up? If not, when doing games, I highly recommend getting your games reviewed. That way, the game will be enjoyable, yet balanced as possible. You should also try to get them reviewed around the time you /in to mod a Mini (In Mini Themes, preferably before). You'll have a lot of time to get reviews, plus you won't have to worry about scrambling to the end and less mod errors would result from this as you would be more ready to mod a game.