Karma Mafia (Game Over!)

[dybeck]

vote: bv310

. Get back in the kitchen and make my beaver tea.

[dybeck]

Fun Fact:

The anteater has terrible eyesight but a keen sense of smell. While playing mafia, instead of saying IGMEOY, the anteater will say IGMNOY.

Toenail of Suspicion: Jahudo

[dybeck]

mod: can you confirm that our absentees have confirmed for this game?

in the meantime,

unvote, vote: anon

. Wakey wakey sunshine.

In other news, Porochaz, are your antics part of a mafia-related strategy? Or more about creating your own kind of fun?

[dybeck]

Seraphim, I've found that it's always scum who try to draw out the RVS in order to get it a bit closer to deadline before the actual play begins. It's usually not close enough to make a difference, but it gives a bit extra time to look for either breadcrumbs (in a theme game) or slight PR-tells.

Looks like we have someone who plays from "Ye Olde Book of Scum". Im guessing we'll be butting heads later when Im not being such a douche.

"Being a douche" contributes to several things, in my experience:

1) distracts the town from having useful conversation;
2) allows scum players to remain very quiet while douchery happens around them;
3) makes the douche concerned more likely to be lynched, regardless of alignment;
4) spoils people's fun.

I have yet to decide whether or not I care whether you get yourself lynched, but it's annoying to have town sidetracked, scum hiding, and my fun spoiled.

I don't want to give you a hard time. I actually think that a bit of early douchery can be a positive thing in the RVS - a couple of days of anteaters and such can sometimes stimulate some interaction at least, but it would be good to see less of it as the game proceeds into the more serious stages.

[dybeck]

Well part of my "tantrum" is reaction testing, and part of it is a little frustration. C'mon, you really can't empathise with being panicked and frustrated when 1 person votes you three times?

I can't empathise with deliberately being a jerk in response. Is it a tactic that has worked in your favour (or that of your side) before?

[dybeck]

Hey Anon. Removing your vote on the basis that you've arrived.

unvote, vote: Albert B Rampage

[dybeck]

Albert, is it your intention to lurk in plain sight? Or are you just lazy?

You seem to have made a lot of posts for someone who's said precisely nothing.

[dybeck]

Is anyone else NOT seeing the case on bv310 here? It seems to be built upon fairy dust, sticky tape, and opportunism to me.

[dybeck]

@seraphim: If that's the best defence that you can muster for the bv wagon, it might be time to start casting the net a little wider, no?

I'm just pointing out that it's a little flimsy to have spiralled to L-3.

[dybeck]

I suppose my point is that a lot of fuss is always made of "OMG flipflopping scumtell!!!"... "OMG defensive scumtell!!!"... but what we all know (if we really think about it) is that the scum won't be doing anything controversial at this stage on Day 1.

They'll be sitting on the easy wagons, flying under the radar, and letting town tie itself up - as scum always do.

Having said that, I can't really offer up a better wagon at this stage - so perhaps it's worth seeing where the existing wagons take us.

[dybeck]

dybeck, what do you think about Esp?

Much the same as I think about Albert, to be honest. Could just be lazy, but that's an accusation that could probably be leveled at the majority of players here (myself included). A bit of pressure might reveal more.

I certainly like an Espeonage wagon better than the two that are currently being offered.

[dybeck]

Actually, now you mention it, I like it marginally more than an ABR wagon.

unvote, vote: Espeonage

[dybeck]

I haven't yet picked up anything in farside's post that I personally think it worth pursuing as a line of questioning, there's plenty there and I'm sure that others will spot something I haven't. It's at least content.

dybeck post 405: Why do you think this?

I just don't really see anything that bad with anything bv310's done. Seems to be playing in a pretty similar way to he did in our previous game together - where he was pro-town. Incidentally, the exact same accusation about passively agreeing with other players were levelled at him there.

And your vote is on ABR why?

Seemed like a reasonable idea at the time. For the record, though, I'm going to stick my neck out and say that I've pulled a complete 180 on ABR and I would now like to declare him towards the top of my town list. And no, for the record, this is not me breadcrumbing daycop. I'm just flipflopping. Do scum ever actually exhibit the behaviour traits that he's showing? Really? Stimulating discussion without actually getting oneself lynched Day 1 is a fine art, and I'm really starting to like his style.

@Anon, Porochaz, Espeonage, My Milked Eek, Pomegranate: Who would be your top two pro-town players and your top two scum players, if you were able to lynch anyone right now?

[dybeck]

@dybeck: I'm not going to even delve into that WIFOM you are so deftly pulling out of your ass on ABR. ABR is one of those players who will do the most unconventional thing whether town or scum. But knowing I have seen him play well as town and crap as town I don't let him fly by without poking him into a repsonse because his scum play is just as erractic.

I don't think I played with him before - but unconventional can be a good thing in a game like this where not much is moving very fast. Too often on this site people get lynched for standing out though. Historically, I used to play like that a lot and I've got a good few premature lynches to show for it (as town and as scum). Have you got a good example of his erratic play that you can point me to (like in other games)?

[dybeck]

@farside: If his play here is consistent with other games in which he's been town, doesn't that back up his town credentials?

@dybeck: why are you so intent on defending a player who isn't really under any pressure when you should be scumhunting?

[dybeck]

@dybeck: why are you so intent on defending a player who isn't really under any pressure when you should be scumhunting?

Dunno. Maybe I should repeat my previous question before it gets lost in all this waffle.

@Anon, Porochaz, Espeonage, My Milked Eek, Pomegranate: Who would be your top two pro-town players and your top two scum players, if you were able to lynch anyone right now?

[dybeck]

One needs to take his play in the context of the game...dybeck might be making an opportunistic leap onto a budding wagon.

Which budding wagon are you referring to?

[dybeck]

A good solid read of the game would be good from bv310.

Seraphim: what's your general impression of the players ON the bv wagon? Generally town? Or some bussers on there?

[dybeck]

Seraphim: what's your general impression of the players ON the bv wagon? Generally town? Or some bussers on there?

First point: yes. But you said you weren't feeling the bv wagon...do you think it warrants your consideration now?

Unlikely, but this game's going nowhere until the majority of this town has heard enough from bv to make an informed decision one way or another.

Second point: bv wagon = Papa Zito, Anon, Seraphim, Espeonage, farside22, curiouskarmadog, RichardGHP

The reasoning behind my question is that it just seems too early for scum to be bussing one of their own. There's an incredibly juicy alternate wagon on Richard that they could be plugging, whilst still flying under the radar. It just doesn't sit right with me that there'd be bussing going on in this specific situation. Does that make sense?

[dybeck]

Mostly for reasons that have already been stated re: Richard and Esp. ABR just smells scummy to me based on the sheer lack of contribution and jumping on wagons. I feel like CKD could be scum pushing a mislynch under the guise of a policy lynch, and Farside is for the reason stated.

As for three of four, I don't feel that both CKD and Richard are scum. If they are, then they win the record for quickest bussing in a game.

What about me and Seraphim, bv?

[dybeck]

I feel Sera is townie, just slightly tunneled, and I feel like you are playing really similar to Narnia (protown)

Having said that, In Narnia, my scumdar was 100% wrong 100% of the time...

[dybeck]

Sando: Your use of scare words bugs me.

You've accused me of being "wishy-washy" about the two main wagons, when I think I've been very clear - particularly in relation to the bv wagon.

You've accused me of "derailing" because I don't believe in the wagon du jour. There's no

secret

plot to "derail" the bv wagon. I don't believe in it, and I don't think it's the best town play. You seem to be trying to scare the rest of us into thinking that if they don't hop on board this flimsy wagon, they'll be up for votes themselves - which just comes across as really scummy to me.

I didn't raise this at the time, because I know I have a tendency to hit the OMGUS button.

But accusing Seraphim of "fence-sitting" is the worst of all. You're throwing a scare word at him which is wholly unjustified - while I don't agree with all his conclusions, Seraphim has been very far from non-committal so far.

Could you expand on your justifications for the above three points you've made?

[dybeck]

Pomegranate is scum guys. Richard is town.

All of this ^^^^

Javert is also town. Espeonage likely scum with pom. Bobberz likely anti-town. And now I have 30 posts. Interesting that farside has 66 posts.

And all of this ^^^^^^

I agree with.

[dybeck]

Prod received. Still feel the same as I did before, except now I'm starting to think ABR might actively be trying to hurt us. Opinions are nice, but without reasoning tey're not even worth the energy you took to type them.

I'm so glad I stuck my neck out defending you after this gem of wisdom.

CONTENT! POST SOME CONTENT!

[dybeck]

You may hate them it doesnt make them scummy. The conclusion is, Richard is scum, this is why so many of us have been on him for so long. The analysis was reading into the posts what they actually meant.

This is ludicorus.

Oja I believe lurking is scummy not just anit town. Reason being, both town and scum have external reasons to lynch, but only scum have tactical reasons to lynch. I believe being called out on lurking acknowledging it and then lurking more is more scummy because it shows me that they are (less likely to be doing it for external reasons) therfore more likely to be doing it tactically, so it becomes more scummy.

Once they're called on it, it's clear that their lurking is doing them no good, and is making them look scummier. What 'tactical' good would it do them in this instance to continue lurking?

And what gives you the impression that external obligations go away once pressure is applied in a mafia thread?

And, Boberz, post #614, does the "I'm acting far too scummy to be scum!" defence work against you? If not, why are you trying to employ it here?

[dybeck]

I believe being called out on lurking acknowledging it and then lurking more is more scummy because it shows me that they are (less likely to be doing it for external reasons) therfore more likely to be doing it tactically, so it becomes more scummy.

Once they're called on it, it's clear that their lurking is doing them no good, and is making them look scummier. What 'tactical' good would it do them in this instance to continue lurking?

I dont know what tactical good it might do in this situation, or what they percieve the tactical good is in this situation, because I am not in their situation. But it is clear that there are tactical reasons to lurk and lots of them for scum, the percieved value may supercede that of whatever they are trying to hide or avoid. And with people questioning the tell it only amplifies this.

No, come on. You've made an accusation that someone is lurking after being called on it, for tactical reasons,

in this situation

. You're prepared to lynch upon it - can you elaborate? Or is this another thing you're going to have to retract?

At the very least, you need to

think

about what you're typing. To quote something as a stock "tell" without actually putting it into context and understanding how a scum would be using it

in this situation

just shows a laissez-faire attitude to scumhunting and makes it look like you're trying to get people on board an easy lynch without actually making a case that the voted individual is working to improve the cause of their mafia team.

And

that

, boberz,

is

something scum would do.

[dybeck]

dybeck, do you think boberz' Post 640 was a “IIoA” Post?

Maybe! What's a "IIoA" post?

[dybeck]

I don't think that particular post enlightens us about boberz's alignment or that of anyone else.

I don't think tagging it as "IIoA" or anything else is very useful either. Others more au fait with the term might find it useful to do so, but I prefer to read the words in it...

[dybeck]

1.)

I don't think that particular post enlightens us about boberz's alignment or that of anyone else.

I don't think tagging it as "IIoA" or anything else is very useful either. Others more au fait with the term might find it useful to do so, but I prefer to read the words in it...

Given your Post 676, what do you think about Seraphim immediately labeling the post as "IIoA" in Post 642?

If you think the situation is different from from your Post 676, please differentiate them for me.

I don't mean to be unhelpful or to sit on the fence. I just get the impression that "IIoA" is a label that's applied to posts when people (both town and scum) are trying to pigeon-hole posts into scummy envelopes. I haven't come across the term in any of my previous games (to the best of my recollection) so I don't feel like it's worthwhile for me to say whether it falls under this umbrella.

I don't think that it was informative, nor that it showed a great deal of analysis. I don't know that the post in question particularly adds to the case against boberz. Having said that, I still think there's a reasonable chance that he's scum, and I'd be very happy with a boberz lynch - much happier than I would be with a bv or Richard lynch.

Post #676 pretty much sums up the things that bug me the most about boberz, and I don't think boberz has done anything to answer the points in it, despite having been back and posting since then.

Btw...

unvote, vote: Boberz

[dybeck]

Freaking out, overreacting, losing control etc are not scum tells.

Yet they are the main reason the Richard wagon got its head of steam in the first place, if you cast your mind back. Do you disagree with the reasons why he was voted by several people early on?

[dybeck]

Freaking out, overreacting, losing control etc are not scum tells.

Yet they are the main reason the Richard wagon got its head of steam in the first place, if you cast your mind back. Do you disagree with the reasons why he was voted by several people early on?

...since he happens to be on the wagon...

Boberz only jumped on the wagon late, to bring it to L-2. He wasn't in the game in the initial stages of the Richard wagon. My question is not about whether he wants a Richard lynch - he's made that very clear. My question is how he feels about the votes that were cast upon Richard in the first place - which were mostly based upon Richard's weird overreaction to the first couple of votes.

So Boberz, do you agree with the reason Richard was wagoned in the first place? To bring someone to L-2 is a clear statement of intent to lynch imo.

[dybeck]

We have 3 days to deadline. Boberz needs to be lynched.

[dybeck]

I'm beginning to understand why everyone is voting Richard.

Ya me too. I personally don't tend to go for "unhelpful and annoying" as a reason to lynch someone, but I can understand why people do.

[dybeck]

Finally: let me ask you: what motivation would boberz scum have in saying what he did if bv were his partner? Is he trying to protect a fake-claim with that? Something that no scum team ever sets up for day 1? I'm not buying it at all and that is the exact reason why I'm not voting for boberz. The more I think about it I'm getting less and less willing to vote for bv as well.

They're not

both

scum, so

neither

of them is scum?

[dybeck]

I find vanilla townies tend to get lynched in any event once they're forced to a claim.

I completely understand that this is the usual way of things and I expect bv310 to bite the dust for this reason. It's hard to believe that boberz is exhibiting some superior skill by unvoting - seems more like a preemptive positioning.

But I hope you will take a closer look at boberz overnight. Believe me, later on, we're going to need to lynch him.

[dybeck]

Dybeck, it is really bad form to set up lynches for the next day in that manner.

Do feel free to explain why.

[dybeck]

Dybeck, it is really bad form to set up lynches for the next day in that manner.

Do feel free to explain why.

Because it indicates that your mind is closed.

Because it indicates you will not be considering all info tomorrow.

Because you help scum know who to avoid tonight (not massively relevant in this case I accept)

Because you create even more WIFOM than normal if one of us gets killed in the night.

If you think that I'm so inexperienced as to be deterred from voicing my suspicions by attempting to make me think that others will think I'm scummy for doing so, you do us both a disservice.

[dybeck]

Actually, I don't entirely refute your points.

However, rest assured that my mind is not closed. I hope that we do have some more info to discuss tomorrow - today has been a fairly unproductive Day 1 and a couple of flips will give us a lot more to discuss - and less of a tunneled meander into a shot in the dark.

Your last point is fair. In the event that I do die tonight, I suppose I'll just have to leave it in the hands of town to accord the correct weight to scum's (or vig's) decisions to kill me off. You're absolutely right that any arguments that stem from it are heavily WIFOM. It's clearly not a good enough reason not to voice my opinions, though, of course.

Whoever gets killed tonight is likely to form the starting point for discussion tomorrow - and all those who survive the night will need to weigh it up in context. Nobody here is stupid enough to automatically think "he was killed - his suspicions must have been right!" or "he was killed - must be a mafia trick!"

[dybeck]

Is this your way of saying I am right dybeck?

Not really. Part of your post is stating the obvious. And part is just plain stupid. As with so many of your posts, you are correctly taking fundamentals of the game, but distorting them. Others are more forgiving than I am, and are clearly willing to believe that you just understand the game in a childlike and facile way, which causes you to draw the flat wrong conclusions. I think you're scum.

However, your stupidity is nothing compared to your scummate Sando. I will grant you that much.

[dybeck]

I'm sitting here refusing to feel pressured, even though a third of the players alive are voting for me first thing I see D2. Thanks for trying though.

That's easily fixed.

Vote: Espeonage

.

tl;dr: Espeonage is scum. Lynch him.

Can you explain a little further?

[dybeck]

Vote: Espeonage

.

tl;dr: Espeonage is scum. Lynch him.

Can you explain a little further?

Well, how about you read therest of the post other than the tl;dr?

Maybe reverse psychology will work better...

Please continue to not make any meaningful contribution to the game. Do not, under any circumstances, elaborate on the reasons for your vote. And please, definitely, give no clearer indication as to why you've picked the suspects you have done as being scum.

[dybeck]

Look, you idiots. There's no slip in that claim. I think perhaps that some of you just don't get what a Hider is.

What Pomegranate is saying (albeit inarticulately) is that weak mode hides another player. Strong mode hides both Pom

and

that player.

Pom: Do you know what happens if you target mafia with your ability?

Everyone else: Why are we so excited about lynching an obvious town power role?

[dybeck]

Ah OK... Pom's claim has confused me too...

[dybeck]

Yep sorry. I'm the idiot who doesn't know what a hider is.

You're right that something's not right with that claim.

[dybeck]

I'm not in a mega-hurry to lynch claimed power roles.

If we get Pom to report results for the next couple of days, and we're still big on lynching her, then we can still do so - but if she flips town, we'll have a couple of other confirmed town.

Pom - would you be content with the suggestion of using your night action in accordance with the consensus of the town?

[dybeck]

I did not like Pom #952, it read to me like 'I have just cooked up this superb fakeclaim let me make it'.

This IS a scumtell that is too often overlooked though.

[dybeck]

Pom - would you be content with the suggestion of using your night action in accordance with the consensus of the town?

Actually scratch this suggestion. It doesn't work.

[dybeck]

I want to remind people of a few things:

1. The theme of the game. Each role has a weak and a strong mode. We knew this already. But I also want people to take note of the name of the game, which is KARMA MAFIA. And Karma is a BITCH. There is no doubt some sort of penalty for using the strong version too often. Therefore, if we have Pom hide using strong mode, she endangers the town from what we know of the theme.

Yeah... I've been wondering about this since Pom explained her role. I suspect that there will be some element of scum benefiting from whatever powers are used against them. For example, if Pom hides with a scum, a scum gets to hide themselves.

If this

is

along the right lines, then I don't think it does much harm in discussing it - since scum will already know how it works...

vote: Sando

. Now THERE is a wagon that feels right.

[dybeck]

What info do we get if she dies hiding behind someone? We've no idea who she'd have hid behind so we'g get nothing. At least by directing her this becomes possible.

Faraday: It doesn't work. Scum could just nk her target and Pom will die too. That's why I retracted my suggestion that we direct her.

[dybeck]

Let me think on this, I thought for a second this wouldn't be a bad thing. I mean wcs we get rid of scummy pom who we're unsure of anyway and I'd assuming we['d get her to investigate people we feel are likely to be mafia anyway, so we'd be forcing the scum into a sub optimal kill just to knock off 2 people?

This is the scummiest thing I've ever read in my life.

Scum KNOW who's scum and who's not. Just because we think somebody might be scum, doesn't make them less of an asset if they are town.

You're condoning the idea of giving mafia a two-for-one kill, at least one of which is a power role.

And if the person we get Pom to target IS scum, then we lose her for free anyway.

unvote, vote: Faraday

Also, while I'm here, I'm going to hazard a guess at the setup. I wonder whether when town power roles choose to use a night action, scum have the option of using the same night action against town.

We might have a better idea of whether this makes sense as town PRs die and we get more idea of what power roles are in the game - but until we do, I'd advise power roles to consider the repercussions of their night choices.

If this IS true as far as the setup's concerned, I'm not altogether sorry about losing a vig...

[dybeck]

Of course, I am me and I know I'm a villager, so...yeah.

I'm intrigued. Why did you just roleclaim for no reason?

[dybeck]

OK great. Everyone's shown their colours on Pomegranate and we know who wants to lynch her and who doesn't.

What's the problem with waiting a day to lynch? If Pom is scum, we've lost nothing. If Pom is town, we potentially get another confirmed town member, as well as letting cop(s) do their job and potentially get to confirm a power role that will be extremely useful as we get later in the game?

I honestly can't see the urgency in lynching Pom when there are others we'd like to see dead - or at least pressured into giving a reaction.

Am I the only one thinking like this?

[dybeck]

Dybeck, do you have a reason to think Pome might actually be town here?

Honestly, no. Actually, I do take on board all the reasons she's been voted.

But I'm just thinking about risk versus reward. We've got a real potential tangible reward in keeping Pomtown alive, and nobody's really put a case that there's a real drawback in keeping Pomscum alive for a night - to see if a tracker or cop can confirm her one way or another tonight, and to get some further usable info from her night action tonight - usable info which will be confirmed fact if we decide to lynch her tomorrow.

Is the main problem that there's nobody else screaming scum?

[dybeck]

I really have nothing to say until we lynch Pom.

I really have nothing to say until we lynch Pom.

Why is it that I'm SIGNIFICANTLY happier with ABR saying this than I am with Richard saying this?

Just because ABR has decided to take this stance, it does NOT make it a Lurk Out Of Jail Free card for everyone in the game.

[dybeck]

I have a question that I want everyone to answer: do you think Pom is lying about her claim? I don't want to hear "maybe"s or "let's wait a night"s, I want to hear what everyone's black and white opinion is.

Sorry. I have to say "maybe".

But then, I think she's acting scummier than bv was, and bv was scum, so that shows what I know.

[dybeck]

I have a question that I want everyone to answer: do you think Pom is lying about her claim? I don't want to hear "maybe"s or "let's wait a night"s, I want to hear what everyone's black and white opinion is.

Interestingly, while Pom may not in my top three favourite lynches, none of those who ARE in my top three are actually voting for her.

[dybeck]

@ABR...I also think your attempts to derail some useful conversation happening when you have done absolutely fuck all interesting.

I agree. ABR - you've made your point about Pom. I think we all get where you stand. Stifling conversation and flinging allegations at those who are trying to stimulate discussion is, at best, unhelpful - and at worst, extremely scummy.

[dybeck]

Basically dybeck has been bothering me for a while I am sure there is a reason so I will look when I get a bit more time.

Because you're scum and I'm the only one that's tried to build a wagon on you to date?

Just for reference, town generally look for scummy things and choose a lynch target based upon those things. Choosing a lynch target and then scrabbling for some sort of justification betrays you as scum.

Your joining of the bv wagon and then pulling away at the last minute bothered me yesterday too.

Make your case and I'll tell you what else I think.

[dybeck]

Go go Boberz/Faraday scumteam!

[dybeck]

<sigh>

[dybeck]

Going to start the day where I finished the last.

vote: Faraday

.

[dybeck]

Even after Faraday understood that directing Pom would result in giving scum a double kill, he still tried to convince the town to go with this plan.

And deftly avoided the bv wagon Day 1, defending him several times, whilst consistently staying on the wagon most likely to provide a non-bv lynch, without really providing any good reasoning why Richard should be lynched.

I like to have my vote somewhere at all times. Until I see someone do something scummier, that feels good enough for an early vote.

[dybeck]

I never really suspected Porochaz even though he distrusted me a lot.

I'm relatively satisfied with the Pom lynch for two main reasons:

1) you can't claim to not have read the thread and hammer at the same time so far ahead before deadline. You just can't; nobody can.

2) The hider claim was really fishy, and we needed the information of her death for Day 3. We had to know what her alignment was to base future lynches on.

Also, we managed to not out the cop or the doctor which is great. Losing a hider wasn't a great loss, especially considering that Pom quasi-confirmed farside. Now there's always a chance that Pom or farside was JK'd or RB'd and that farside is scum, but 85% farside is town.

I'm glad that Pom and Porochaz are gone in a sense, just because they suspected me and I am town.

Now who do I think is scum.

Of the people who actively tried to derail the Pom bandwagon, I think there was at least one scum. Farside is probably town because of Pom, and Porochaz is dead, so there's Nick and CKD left.

IGMEOY

goes out to both but no FOS.

There's a wealth of information from Day 3 I want to go through but my main suspect is now Sando.

I would have expected scum to move away from the wagon with the claim, possibly coming back when it became clear that the wagon was going ahead.

Ok, nope, having reread, I'm still failing to see a real danger to town from leaving Pom alive. I think ABR's 'scenario' is pretty highly unlikely, and I haven't really seen anyone else pose a downside. Sera's reasoning is equally faulty, in that the danger he proposes (using strong ability hurts town) presumably only happens if Pom is town, therefore using her ability correctly is pro-town, and leaving a scum alive doesn't hurt town in that regards.

I don't think scum would seriously have the balls to push a lynch like this on a claimed role D2 to be honest. I think they're wrong, but I'm starting to think pro-town for the early people pushing for the lynch on the role.

I think it was a slip from Pom, and made me believe the claim even less. I think it's scum-thinking in terms of who they would hide behind.

Unvote, Vote: Pom

The claim seems to be basically utter BS. Nothing about it convinces me, quite the opposite in fact. I don't see the harm in leaving her alive, but no real scum-hunting seems likely while she is alive, so I guess that it's pretty pointless to leave her alive.

These back-to-back posts don't inspire my trust at all. Sando goes from saying "I don't see the harm in leaving Pom alive" to "I don't believe the claim and I'm voting Pom" and tops it off with a "Scum would try to get in on the Pom wagon once it's clear that she's getting lynched" when he places the 8th vote on her. All these things are scummy.

I myself tend to contradict my theory with my play as scum, for example saying that "scum would move away from the wagon" while I'm doing exactly that or "scum would bus" when I'm bussing. So I definitely consider this a big scumtell.

Vote Sando

Really? You campaigned tirelessly for the death of a power-role "because it would give us information", actively supressing discussion on any other topic, and this is the best you got from it?

[dybeck]

Also, while I'm here, I'm going to hazard a guess at the setup. I wonder whether when town power roles choose to use a night action, scum have the option of using the same night action against town.

We might have a better idea of whether this makes sense as town PRs die and we get more idea of what power roles are in the game - but until we do, I'd advise power roles to consider the repercussions of their night choices.

If this IS true as far as the setup's concerned, I'm not altogether sorry about losing a vig...

Also, now we have an inkling about a couple of the power roles in the game, I think it's worth opening discussion about what we think the setup might be here.

If my suggestion is close to the mark, then scum already know this information, so we're not actually doing any harm to talk about it.

It's "Karma" mafia, after all - the mod's given it that name for a reason, and if scum are getting extra information based upon town's night actions, we should think about a strategy to counter it.

The one thing that is clear is that they're doing a good job of hitting PRs overnight, and we might want to examine whether this is just luck or whether town PRs are inadvertently helping them out.

[dybeck]

I don't mind dybeck's explanation, really. It at least lets me know where he's at,.

It's "Karma" mafia, after all - the mod's given it that name for a reason, and if scum are getting extra information based upon town's night actions, we should think about a strategy to counter it.

The one thing that is clear is that they're doing a good job of hitting PRs overnight, and we might want to examine whether this is just luck or whether town PRs are inadvertently helping them out.

I think it's obvious that since PR's have a weak strong mode obviously there's some negative effect. Since town doesn't know what it is, it seems obvious it's doing something to either 1) help scum and 2) hinder town.
The thing is, while trying to work it out is good I don't know where to start.

It was you that suggested scum get powers if town use them? I think it's possible, but the hider being in the set-up makes me feel that's less likely.

We know we had a vig... It's conceivable that scum would have had the ability to get some protection from nightkills as a 'karma' effect of the hider using her night action.

[dybeck]

[quote="Amished]I want dybeck to still eat a curb for his discussion that will probably help to out current power roles. Seriously, STFU.[/quote]

You're basing this upon what, exactly?

If mafia are getting night results from our investigators, etc, as I suspect, then some caution in the way they're used will conceal power roles, not out them.

Scum have a lot more info than we do. They don't seem to be doing a bad job of lynching/NKing our power roles so far - let's try and stem that tide.

PRs are responsible for not outing themselves - everyone just needs to be a bit sensible in what they say.

[dybeck]

Of the people who actively tried to derail the Pom bandwagon, I think there was at least one scum. Farside is probably town because of Pom, and Porochaz is dead, so there's Nick and CKD left. IGMEOY goes out to both but no FOS.

This is bullshit. Scum would rather blend in then make waves. Or they lurk their ass off.

You have to admit, though, that if it

was

a scum strategy to create a mislynch, to distract everyone from scumhunting, and to end the day without any decent amount of information, then it worked pretty well.

[dybeck]

Come on, let's just lynch whoever the fuck ever, I don't care about Day 1.

I'll vote whoever as long as it's not me.

Right now I don't care who gets lynched as long as it's not me. Some are lurking, some are posting a lot, but in the end it doesn't make a difference because scum can do either. So I'll just vote for whoever for now.

I don't have any strong reads on anybody yet.

Unvote, vote POMEGRANATE

Pomegranate is scum guys.

My Day 1 is impeccable don't try to get it twisted CKD.

Yep. Your Day 1 was a real masterclass. Surpassed only by your spectacular Day 2.

[dybeck]

OK let's see where this one goes.

unvote, vote: Sando

[dybeck]

I can already hear the jokes about me driving another bandwagon after yesterday's mislynch. In my defense, Pom hammered without reading the thread. And by the time she was outed, even if she was town her information would be less valuable because it would be subject to scum manipulation. Do I wish we never lynched Pom? Hard to say. I certainly wish she never hammered without reading the thread.

Someone has to drive the wagons. But just don't give us another "display" like yesterday in which you successfully stifled any useful discussion and, in general, acted like a total jerk.

Whether it was scummy or just stupid remains to be seen, but it was certainly counter-productive and left town in a much worse position at the end of the day than at the beginning.

And let's not blame Pom for the obvious shortcomings in your play yesterday.

[dybeck]

ABR put BV to L-3 at one point, though his read on Pom made him switch votes about 12 days before the end of the day. At that point BV and Richard were still tied, and ABR wasn't trying to help the Richard wagon by either thinking Richard was really scummy, or the BV wagon was bad. So either he is scum giving up distancing earlier than makes sense, or he really thought Pom was scum. Given day 2, I believe he just thought Pom was scum, and he's not scum with BV.

Jahudo, I believe you were OFF the bv lynch wagon and ON the Pom lynch wagon. How would you rate your play so far?

[dybeck]

don't give us another "display" like yesterday in which you successfully stifled any useful discussion and, in general, acted like a total jerk.

When a game gets boring, town loses interest and scum win. That is fact. Dragging the day when a lynch is going to happen for sure is always bad. I also think there was a wealth of information collected yesterday.

Personally, I lose interest when I'm surrounded by idiots... and rounding on anyone who tried to say anything other than "vote: Pom" was Not Helpful. If info was collected yesterday, it was

despite

you, rather than because of you.

[dybeck]

FOS: Nick

A player new to the site NOT subscribing to the Lynch All Liars rule, I can forgive.

But "Look at me, I was right not to be on the mislynch wagon yesterday" tingles my Spidey-sense. Only scum have information about scum. To have not jumped on the wagon yesterday, while doing little to actually stop it, is not really a town-tell.

[dybeck]

Alright. A couple of things I've noticed about Nick's play:

1. An obsession with ABR

And, in my opinion and my experience, player's like ABR aren't scum, they're just annoying. They'll probably be killed by a vig first night just so they don't accidentally pick off a useful townie because of a false read. Still, he shouldn't really be listened to because he's just screwing with people for fun.

First, he tries to discredit him and tell people to ignore him based on nothing besides being "annoying".

I think both Richard and Albert are scummy. Albert is just dicking around, making inane posts, either he's scum or just doing it to be a douchebag.

This is pretty...outta left field? I mean, there's Pom's weird claim and then there's...THIS. Just, wtf.

Vote: ABR

Really, people? I think last day's spectacle is enough reasoning

2. A bizarre attack

Saying that farside looks town in one post and then voting for her in the next post is pretty....well, do I really need to explain this? Its self-explanatory.

No, it's not. It's not even based in reality as, mentioned earlier, it never happened.

3. Bizarre and unhelpful play

Any comment on my post, Nick?

tl;dr

Um...lolwut

4. A WIFOM defense...several times

I did give bv's vote the lead and all, and he did turn out to be mafia...soo..... Yeah.....If I was mafia, wouldn't I have waited until people actually jumped off the Richard bandwagon and bv was close to being lynched?

Wouldn't I have hammered or at least voted for Pom if I was scum? And thne just say 'Oops she was so scummy and everyone else was doing it?'

5. a strange roleclaim out of nowhere

I know I'm a villager

6. Setting up ABR's lynch while supporting a Pom lynch

I definitely think here claim is fake, since when do hider's die when they hide? And the weak and strong are basically the exact same thing. I'm not sure if she is actually scum though, she could be a cop who doesn't want to reveal their actual role, since to me she doesn't act too scummy compared to other people.

Alright, this is incredibly wishy-washiness while still looking like he agrees with the town. So, the claim is definitely fake. But she's still town. So go ahead and lynch her, but I'm definitely not on the wagon so don't attack me if she comes up town kthxbai

IMO, ABR is scum if Pom turns up town. He's all tunnel vision about lynching her, and he seems more scummy to me than Pom does.

Nice setup for tomorrow's lynch.

So, what I'm saying is this: Nick's play reeks, especially his opinion on Pom's claim. I can understand not suscribing to LAL but Nick is unable to put out good reasoning for why Pom would lie as town. Wouldn't a claim like cop or something keep her alive longer, rather than a common scum claim like hider? I think that Nick was trying to escape being on the wagon while still agreeing with the majority of the town.

Seraphim, can you explain to me which of these are scumtells?

I'm wondering particularly about (3), which is not exactly a conventional scumtell, and (5), which we've established was not a roleclaim, but a confusion in terminology.

[dybeck]

Really? You campaigned tirelessly for the death of a power-role "because it would give us information", actively supressing discussion on any other topic, and this is the best you got from it?

to:

OK let's see where this one goes.

unvote, vote: Sando

So Dybeck, you initially thought it was a pretty weak case, and despite noone actually adding anything to ABRs case, you've changed your mind and want to see 'where it goes'? Righto.

Let me make this very clear. I DID NOT "initially think it was a pretty weak case."

I think you're scum. I think you're scum and should be lynched. My problem with ABR's post is NOT that there is no case against you. There IS a case against you. My problem is that, if you recall, I had already fingered you as scum yesterday, and that lynching Pom unnecessarily hasn't added anything to the case against you.

So my problem is that we've lost a PR for no reason. For the avoidance of doubt, I will be VERY happy with your lynch, as I would have been yesterday.

Thanks for misrepresenting my post, though. I hope that I've now made myself clear, yes? So why don't you be a good boy and answer the points made against you instead of trying to shine the spotlight elsewhere?

[dybeck]

So you suspected me from yesterday, yet decided Faraday was a better vote for you? Till what? What changed?

What's changed NOW is that you are failing to address any points put to you, and desperately trying to turn the attention elsewhere. Want to try again?

[dybeck]

First ever prod I do apologise everyone.

Still need to go back and work out what I had on Dybeck. He has improved today however and is actually pressing for weak points in Sando for example.

As far as I recall, dybeck was pressing on Sando yesterday, too. What is different about him today?

He looked more reactionary yesterday I think whereas today he looks like he might actually get Sando on a point. But now I look back he doesnt seem to have actually made points today just creating a whole lot of noise. What are

your

points dybeck.

Bussed a scummate that he'd been previously been defending on Day 1, killed off a claimed powerrole whose claim he said he believed, along with my previous points about his playstyle yesterday... seems as good an idea as any.

[dybeck]

killed off a claimed powerrole whose claim he said he believed

Excuse me dybek, where did you say Sando said he believed the hider claim?

My bad - am confusing scum with each other. Should have been "killed off a claimed powerrole who he had previously said was worth leaving alive.", which clearly is a much less heinous crime.

[dybeck]

killed off a claimed powerrole whose claim he said he believed

Excuse me dybek, where did you say Sando said he believed the hider claim?

My bad - am confusing scum with each other. Should have been "killed off a claimed powerrole who he had previously said was worth leaving alive.", which clearly is a much less heinous crime.

I'm sorry who are you confusing me with? I don't recall anyone both believing the claim and voting for her?

Cute, Sando.

[dybeck]

5 prodded in one day... this game needs to get moving.

Richard, when was the last time you posted any proper content?

[dybeck]

Whilst I like the Sando lynch very much, I fear that there is a pattern developing here, whereby somebody posts a case against somebody, and the next few pages are "Oh yes, that person is definitely scum" posts that lead us into a lazy lynch.

There are too many sheep here, and not all of them are scum.

[dybeck]

There are too many sheep here, and not all of them are scum.

Who is sheep? Esp? Who else?

I think that both the bv and Pom wagons, along with the monster Richard wagon Day 1 and the Sando wagon today, have been largely pushed by lazy town who haven't really been examining all options.

I'm not sure it's hugely harmful as long as there's a good reason for the wagon getting off the ground in the first place (as there was, apparently, with bv on Day 1, and I believe that there is, today, with Sando) - but we might well have not lynched a PR yesterday if more people were working harder to find scum.

[dybeck]

Is that a lynch?

[dybeck]

Third time's the charm.

vote: Faraday

And Richard? Seriously?

[dybeck]

dybeck, you are honestly saying you dont understand the richard kill? he was the completing wagon against bv....BOTH bv and Sando pushed for his wagon....really?? You dont get it?

I suppose you're right. He just seemed like a pretty easy lynch to me.

Hadn't really been assessing his town credentials since Day 1 so I guess I'm still thinking back to the big deal that was made of him back then.

[dybeck]

unvote, vote: ABR

This is just madness.

[dybeck]

Oh wow. Can't say I agree with Abr's play, but it worked this time. Unless he's got far bigger balls than I think he's not scum here, not sure why he's getting the votes he is.

I appreciate that ABR is your scummate, but you really can't say that you don't understand why he's getting voted.

There's only one way that ABR could have known for a fact Sando was scum, in the absence of a cop investigation (which we now know that he didn't have) - and that is if he was his scummate. Even ignoring the flowery explanation, ABR still jumped the Sando wagon at the last minute when it was clear that he was going to be lynched.

Now that ABR is being pressured for other investigation results which, as scum, he doesn't have, he's found a desperate story to avoid being unmasked as scum.

His scummates have obviously been talking to him overnight and pointed out the errors in his play - but the fact remains that ABR has cocked up - and we need to punish him for it.

Lynch all Liars. It's such an important rule. Never forget it.

[dybeck]

The arguments against ABR seem stupid to me. If he was scum I don't think he'd come out and admit he'd faked his claim.

How long do you think he'd last giving out fake results? He'd get caught out before the end of the game. This has obviously been pointed out to him by his scummates overnight and he's realised his schoolboy error.

Admitting to lying about his results is his ONLY remaining option.

[dybeck]

There was a time I could seriously have gone for a Nick wagon. I'm not entirely certain that time is still ongoing.

[dybeck]

What made you change your mind, dybeck?

Albert and Faraday informed us of their scumminess.

[dybeck]

I'm fairly neutral on Espeonage. He hasn't said anything that's particularly tripped my scumdar, but he hasn't said anything much of substance at all - which in itself should probably have tripped my scumdar.

Not itching to hammer while we're a way from deadline and I'm still convinced that a Faraday or Albert wagon is better.

[dybeck]

My theory is that Papa Zito's weak mode vig would kill his target the night after instead of the same night. That explains the second kill on night 2.

That would be the last puzzle piece in my attempt to build a mental picture of this game setup. And a really good suggestion.

Who knows, if you can rustle up another post or two that actually HELP town rather than hinder it, I might even unvote you.

[dybeck]

Also: read just the first 10 pages focusing on dybeck. If you don't get that he's staying out of every discussion to read the will of the town, you're blind. First responder meeting tonight; be back in like 2 hours or so.

I was pretty clear in my own mind that I didn't like the bv or the Richard wagon. I thought I'd vocalised this pretty clearly, to be honest.

We can go down this road, if you like. Will be informative to see where it leads.

[dybeck]

With that last post; I'm gonna end right there as I don't see dybeck-town ever thinking of something like that; so it'd have to be inside information.

Why would dybeck-scum share this information with you?

Have you thought any of this through?

[dybeck]

didn't follow through on suspicions from day to day...

Hold this thought.

I completely understand that this is the usual way of things and I expect bv310 to bite the dust for this reason. It's hard to believe that boberz is exhibiting some superior skill by unvoting - seems more like a preemptive positioning.

And

definitely

this one.

We'll talk again. You'll like this.

[dybeck]

Just realised that there is a massive flaw in my logic regarding my reasoning for voting Albert.

So I'm going back to Plan A.

unvote, vote: Faraday

Now that I'm not scum again, I'd encourage everyone to reread Faraday in iso and find a good reason to lynch him.

[dybeck]

While I'm doing isos, I've just looked Espeonage up, and there's not really much of me that can see him as scum.

Sera, maybe. Tempted to give him a pass while he's on board the Faraday wagon, though...

[dybeck]

Seraphim and bobberz are probably the last 2 scum.

Is this the result of another cop investigation? Or are you a tracker now? Or the mod? Or Henry VIII?

Or is this another brainwave like your vendetta against Pom?

[dybeck]

unvote, vote: Seraphim

.

Today, to you, seems to be all about survival. There's no real case on Espeonage, and you've forced a claim from someone without actually addressing the points against you.

It was one thing having you buddy up to me on the Faraday wagon (which is still the play, by the way), but now you just seem to be desperate for any lynch that is not your own (which likely means Espeonage).

Earlier on this page you didn't seem at all convinced that Espeonage was scum, yet you had a multi-paragraph case against Faraday.

[dybeck]

@dybeck, how is sera in survival mode and Esp isnt? Jahudo as put forth a case against esp but you are saying there is no real case against him....how is your case against Sera better than Jahudo's against Esp?

It's not so much about the cases that have been presented - I just don't personally really see much of the scum about Esp's posts so far.

[dybeck]

I don't buy Espy's claim at all, mostly because he said it was his role was 'Vanilla Townie', even though earlier in the game by a townie death, it showed the role was named 'Villager' here. =/

@NickF227 - Interesting to not that you're such a stickler for correct terminology - and that anything else is grounds for a wagon.

Of course, I am me and I know I'm a villager, so...yeah.

So now we know what a stickler you are for correct terminology, I ask again: Why the unprompted claim?

Oh, sorry, what? That wasn't a claim? You just used an equivalent word that means the same thing? But surely that's just what Espeonage did?

This is all very confusing, Nick. I wonder if you could shed some light on the matter.

[dybeck]

It's not so much about the cases that have been presented - I just don't personally really see much of the scum about Esp's posts so far.

What part of Jahudo case do you not agree with?

All of Jahudo's points are correct as far as I can see - but I just can't piece them together in such a way that any of them are particularly scummy...

Just so that you know, I am trying to figure out if you are trying to buy townie points buy defending a doomed townie (espy) or if you really believe what you are saying.

I disagree with the suggestion that Espeonage is doomed. But noted anyway.

[dybeck]

Are you really trying to say that dybeck-power role would REVEAL himself to know that inside knowledge where vanillas wouldn't know? Painting a huge target on his back because of it?

I'm not entirely sure why dybeck-scum would reveal scum abilities to the town. Can you clarify what the benefit would be to my hypothetical scum-team?

[dybeck]

@dybeck: It doesn't benefit either a PR or scum (which would be the two that know more of the mechanics) but a PR would know not to open their mouth and paint a target on their back like revealing mechanics would.

Makes sense.

Scum, however, do like to reveal what they know and try to look more intelligent so they reveal facts that would give them "townie cred" for trying to think about something that townies would have no clue about.

REALLY? Scum... always chatting away... giving away their abilities... letting everyone know what their powers are... Especially when it helps town out by advising them of the hidden negative consequences of town actions...

Amished - you're out of your mind.

[dybeck]

Awesome. The moment I stop banging on about how Faraday is scum, a Faraday wagon gets off the ground.

Let's lynch some scum.

unvote, vote: Faraday

[dybeck]

@Ojanen: How do you feel about the three current wagons?

[dybeck]

Passing the time. I can't think of anything else to ask Espy, and the other wagoned people look town to me.

What is it about Faraday that's convinced you of his town credentials?

[dybeck]

Passing the time. I can't think of anything else to ask Espy, and the other wagoned people look town to me.

What is it about Faraday that's convinced you of his town credentials?

For starters, I don't think his plan to deal with Pom was scummy. She looked like a good lynch to me.

Fair enough. Some pro-town people thought Pom was scum. There was certainly something of the scum about her play.

But nobody liked the Pom lynch as much as scum did. Don't forget that they KNEW Pom was a pro-town power role. They wanted the lynch more than anyone else.

[dybeck]

Dybeck I'm struggling to understand why you find or found my plan scummy? I mean if you disagreed with it, I guess that's understandable. I thought it was reasonable at the time, and it would have been best if we had been able to utilise or confirm her role in some way, but that ended up not being possible. Why do you think what I proposd is more likely to come from scum?

As I said at the time, directing the hider would have given scum a two-for-one night kill.

Even after I pointed this out to you, you still wanted to go with the plan. What's the pro-town motivation for this?

[dybeck]

dybek and CKD, why do you think Sando said that he got an innocent investigation result on you?

I pondered on that for a while - naturally he was in trouble and needed something special to dig himself out of a hole.

Perhaps he felt that by taking a punt on me, who was his most vocal antagonist at the time, he might get me off his case and the town would fall in line behind.

What I don't get is why he didn't claim to have copped us both. Unless he had some

actual

information about my actions Night 1, it's such a counterable claim that I still don't really see the merit.

@ABR: Why did you "fake-claim" and not wait to see if I could counter-claim?

[dybeck]

I see Faraday's perked up all of a sudden now that he scents someone else's blood.

[dybeck]

Morning all. Today is going to be a fun day. I can feel it in my bones.

vote: Faraday

.

[dybeck]

And can we actually

lynch

Faraday today? We can't keep letting him off just because he's placid and non-confrontational.

It's time for some pressure.

[dybeck]

Full case or GTFO

Or we could do it your way. You seem to be the paragon of all mafia hunters. Following your masterful lynching of a hider and your ingenious lynching of a villager, I can hardly wait to hear your the benefit of your guidance today.

[dybeck]

How about you give a full case ABR or GTFO. =/

Vote: Espeonage

The second sentence here would rather seem to invalidate the sincerity of the first...

[dybeck]

Well let's all at least agree that

rushing

into an Espeonage lynch is not the play. We have a whole day ahead of us and we should probably use it to discuss where we are.

We already have Esp's roleclaim - more pressure on him is not going to yield any significant further information. I'm not sure there's any merit in voting him until we're ready to go to lynch. It's just taking the pressure off everyone else.

[dybeck]

Dybeck seemed to try and spark off a counterwagon very early today (i consider it counter because an esp wagon was somewhat inevitable) and it seems a tad out of character tol not have reasoning. I will have to track back to see what else I notice.

Out of character? It's exactly the same way I've started each of the last three days I think

[dybeck]

I've said a bunch of stuff about Faraday over the course of this game. Go back and reread if you want to see.

Without pressure, I'm not sure what you expect a hypothetical Faraday-scum to do. Fly under the radar and quietly join in on town lynches would be my bet.

Which is, of course, exactly what he's doing. What has he contributed to the town? What were his contributions to the two scum lynches we have managed so far? Where is his successful active scumhunting?

[dybeck]

I'm not asking for a claim if one has not already occurred - but farside - before you were confirmed, did you claim a role?

[dybeck]

Scum is among CKD / Javert / Dybek

Are you completely cool with Faraday, Espeonage and Nick?

You seem somehow out on a limb with most of your choices.

[dybeck]

I have a lot of things to say about CKD. For now I'm just going to tease you a bit by telling you he's likely the scum.

WHOA WHOA WHOA..


CONSIDERING THAT I AM VT AND I HAVE DONE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT NIGHT, this needs to be pushed further.

if this is a soft claim and you really want everyone to think you believe I am scum, this should be brought forward NOW. No teasing today, waiting to see who gets hung, then bringing up tomorrow.

Sounds like now's the time to tell us all about CKD, then, Albert.

I'm on the edge of my seat. I knew today was going to be fun.

[dybeck]

I have mental notes about CKD pointing to him being scum.

Still on the edge of my seat. Whenever you're ready to elaborate, we're all ready to listen.

But I always enjoy putting dybek on an emotional roller coaster...hey that's why I'm here.

Yes dear. It's all very exciting for me. So do feel free to explain why you are here for my amusement and not to catch scum.

[dybeck]

We need a claim from Shanba first.

But yep, then, tomorrow, we need to talk about ABR. Let's not let ABR's shenanigans distract us from the right lynch yet again.

[dybeck]

One more vote on Shanba will blow this game wide open.

[dybeck]

OK Shanba. Let's hear what you have for us.

[dybeck]

I am a karma booster. Weak boost and strong boost are fairly self explanatory - using each one boosts the karma for that particular role, the weak one weakly, and the strong one strongly. I am unaware of what karma actually does (I asked Patrick and he wouldn't tell me), though it says in my role pm that using my role may help other roles function correctly. Night 1 I weak boosted boberz, night 2 I weak boosted Anon, night 3 I strong boosted ABR and night 4 I weak boosted Amished.

What a well-researched claim. Sadly, I feel you'll be glad you took the time. The town will like that.

Well... we can see what this did to Anon and Amished, I guess - they died. ABR - did you feel 'boosted' Night 3? Or is this claim a lot of claptrap like it sounds?

[dybeck]

I also do not wish to answer the question about whether I felt boosted. I trust anyone with useful info to leave it untill the right time until a reveal.

Boberz, it's really important that you don't reveal anything about your role. Trust me for now and please don't even hint at it. I'll explain before the day is through.

Shanba has baffled me with such a clever roleclaim. Because we have no idea what it will do so have no idea how to check it. Also we do not really know whether the role is alignment specific. We also dont know whether it is true or ahs been cooked up very cleverly.

It's a work of genius, for sure. I'm just not sure whether it's the mod's or Shanba's. Has anyone played with Shanba before? Is he smart enough to have cooked this up? Can anyone think of a way of verifying it?

I still suspect dybeck, he seemed to want to undermine that claim without really looking at it from an independent perspective.

Don't get me wrong. I'm in two minds about it. It feels like it should be provable/disprovable - I'm just not sure how. I'm skeptical, though, on the basis that two of his targets are dead, and the fact that even if it's true, it could easily be a scum role. I'm also concerned, on the basis of the deaths, that even if it's a town role, that scum are hijacking it somehow. However, we can't do anything about that. All that we have to do is decide the best lynch.

Pleased that there's now something to discuss, though.

unvote

while I take stock.

Nick: What do you think of Shanba/Faraday's claim?

[dybeck]

OK listen. I made up my mind to do this last night but wanted to get a Faraday claim first.

I am a rolecop, of sorts. I'm not claiming this because I'm particularly worried about the pressure on me, but the fact is that I have two confirmed innocents and I'm concerned that I will die overnight and take the information to the grave with me. I've pushed my luck far enough, I think.

The fact is, though, that both Boberz and Espeonage are confirmed town.

If you read back through my posts, you'll note that I was all-out for a Boberz lynch for the best part of a day, and haven't mentioned him in a negative light since. This is because I investigated him. If you want further evidence, I can give his exact role.

Happy to answer any questions that don't jeopardise the efficacy of my role.

But probably best for you to discuss amongst yourselves first.

[dybeck]

My exact role Dybeck?

You're a vanilla villager.

That's pretty big news. So Shanba, dybeck, Espy and CKD have claimed; and farside is confirmed town; and boberz and Espy are being vouched for. I think we might as well massclaim at this point.

A massclaim wouldn't be the end of the world as far as my role is concerned - but definitely not today.

@dybeck: so all your other targets have died? were any nights unsuccessful?

I'd rather not talk about other nights in too much depth. But no nights on which I've taken action have been entirely unsuccessful.

Why didn't you say anything after ABR counter-claimed cop? Were you doubting him then, even though I guess there could be a cop and a rolecop in a large together.

The most likely explanation for ABR's claim seemed to be that he was a genuine cop. I don't see why there wouldn't be one.

dybeck, since you claim you are afraid of being nightkilled, I do not see a reason for you to withhold any other information you have, as well as your night-choices, if you made them.

Well, you don't know what my role is, exactly. So you're not really qualified to make that call. You've completely passed me by this game, I have to admit. But you, sir, are fishing.

The "efficacy" of your role will be zero if you die overnight.

I disagree. If I die overnight, Boberz and Espeonage are rock-solid confirmed.

If you are telling the truth, it might help us better understand the game, and at the very least, be able to better judge Shanba's claim and whether it fits.

I'll get to it. But not today. If I die overnight, you get the full picture. If I don't, maybe I'll tell you tomorrow. But, like I said, fishing.

I would also like this clarified:

dybeck, Post 1977 wrote:
The fact is, though, that both Boberz and Espeonage are confirmed town.

I recently lost a game where Masons claimed their partner was confirmed by the Mod to be Town, and it turned out they were wrong. So please double-check that when you say "confirmed town," you really mean confirmed town. I am rather tired of losing games based on stupid mistakes.

As far as I'm concerned, rock-solid confirmed.

dybeck, suppose you had investigated Sando. What would your result have been? "Mafia Goon"? "Mafia"? "Goon"?

How would this result be any different between your Strong and your Weak mode? Should your role could catch a Godfather, since you do not technically investigate for "guilt," but rather the role?

And more fishing? Are you for real? Why have I not noticed you all game?

[dybeck]

Hi, dybeck.

I have problems with your claim. When I have problems with a claim, I ask questions. I am even more likely to ask questions when the player in question says they are "happy" to answer questions.

I personally think it is naive to withhold information from the Town if you are Town once you've claimed the bulk of your information. There is really nothing to gain by withholding information, especially if you die. But it is an excellent tactic for scum to dangle partial information.

I have partial-claimed as scum in a mini game fairly recently when I was under practically no pressure at all. I started off claiming to be a "Watcher or a Tracker" with a near-damning result. The next game Day, I claimed to be a "Tracker variant" -- and even then, I left my claim purposefully ambiguous so that one of my scum-partners could potentially claim a power role in a way that "fit" my role exceptionally well. My claim pretty much sealed the win for my mafia group.

The "efficacy" of your role will be zero if you die overnight.

I disagree. If I die overnight, Boberz and Espeonage are rock-solid confirmed.

Don't play with semantics -- obviously if you are telling the truth, confirming two players to be town is quite efficient. That is an asinine point. If you are telling the truth, then this is true regardless of whether or not you explain your role.

But the real question here is whether revealing the

rest

of your claim is "efficacious." If you die, obviously the "efficacy" of withholding the rest of your information is zero, which is the point I was making.

If you are going to partially claim a role, then in my opinion, you should just claim the whole damned role.

Gosh darn... well if it's naive and scummy of me then i should make sure I tell you everything as soon as possible!

Don't think for a second that you can insult or scare me into revealing information that helps scum. Such tactics might work on newbies, but not on me.

vote: Javert

[dybeck]

@Javert: I have no interest in you evaluating my claim. I'm telling you that giving away more information will not be good for the town. If you think you can build a wagon on me, then go ahead. I will spill all, and you'll see exactly why it was a bad idea all along.

Dybeck: Action X is bad for the town.
Javert: I propose we do action X!

Really?

I claim now not because I want to defend myself. I claim now because Espeonage and Boberz are town, and if I died tonight without spilling this, I would have felt pretty silly.

[dybeck]

@Shanba: How did you choose your night targets? Are you trying to boost scum, or town?

[dybeck]

Sorry... forget that question. Obviously Faraday chose your night targets.

[dybeck]

Actually no, sorry. You've read your role PM. Can you speculate how Faraday chose his night targets?

Do you PERSONALLY feel that you should be targeting town, or scum?

[dybeck]

Dybeck you said I could ask to verify your claim on me. You have failed to do so therefore I asked for clarification and now you refuse to give it.

Did Patrick use the term Vanilla? Am I a vanilla townie, or a Vinalla Villager, be very careful I am already giving you a second chance.

Yes, Patrick used the term vanilla. OMGZ THE SHOCKS PATRICK DIDN'T USE THAT EXACT WORD SOMEWHERE ELSE DYBECK MUST BE SCUM.

Also would you be able to give Esp's role if required (note I am not asking for it but you do have the info)?

I have that info, yes.

Even if you dont tell us the difference do you understand the difference of your weak and strong modes.

Yes. They're entirely distinct.[/quote]

And have you felt them change on any day.

No.

Why If I am whichever role I you say I am did you warn me off breadcrumbing a role earlier today?

Only because I planned to claim today, with my knowledge of your role as supporting evidence. And if you'd hinted at a role, I wouldn't have been able to do so.

[dybeck]

As far as I am concerned dybeck claimed he knew my exact role and didnt.

Really? You're not a vanilla townie? This is very interesting stuff because the mod was pretty specific.

[dybeck]

Bob. I know why you would be sceptical. Vanilla townie goes with whatever name we got given. Still explains the role.

We?

That is the one thing we know your not.

And how do you figure this???

[dybeck]

dybeck: I assume he was trying to boost guys who he thought were town. Certainly, that's what I would do if I were him. Why do you think he would be aiming for someone else?

Well... you allegedly have absolutely no idea what your role does, right? So how do you know whether it's a positive thing or a negative thing?

[dybeck]

I don't mind dybeck's explanation, really. It at least lets me know where he's at,.

It's "Karma" mafia, after all - the mod's given it that name for a reason, and if scum are getting extra information based upon town's night actions, we should think about a strategy to counter it.

The one thing that is clear is that they're doing a good job of hitting PRs overnight, and we might want to examine whether this is just luck or whether town PRs are inadvertently helping them out.

I think it's obvious that since PR's have a weak strong mode obviously there's some negative effect. Since town doesn't know what it is, it seems obvious it's doing something to either 1) help scum and 2) hinder town.
The thing is, while trying to work it out is good I don't know where to start.

It was you that suggested scum get powers if town use them? I think it's possible, but the hider being in the set-up makes me feel that's less likely.

Just read back to see if I could find a hole in Shanba's claim. Came up with nothing really relevant apart from the above. Which actually seems to tie in well with the claim. Something about it screams baloney to me, but I think perhaps we should give Shanba the benefit of the doubt - for today at least.

[dybeck]

Dybeck, when ABR claimed to be a cop, what was your reaction, like my question for bob, I will go back and check, but lack the time now.

To be honest, at the time, it was a bit of a Deus Ex Machina for me. I knew from Sando's claim that he was lying, and the fact that ABR had secured a scum lynch without forcing me to claim meant that I had no reason to question it. Sando was the clear lynch for the day, and everything else was irrelevant until the next day.

I don't see why there shouldn't be an alignment cop in the game though, so I wasn't at all suspicious. His revelation the next day that it was an odd gambit was kinda weird - I still don't quite know what to make of it, to be honest. Everything in me says to lynch all liars, but he did nail a scum for us.

[dybeck]

Scum are probably Dybek and Shanba.

Brilliant posting.

The fact that we've been trying to get each other lynched for three solid days is a massive ruse.

I'm so pleased ABR is here.

[dybeck]

Didn't ABR admit he was just bullshitting to get Sando lynched?

Yes. Now post some content.

unvote, vote: NickF227

[dybeck]

Its pretty obvious I'm not scum, I mean I was the first person to ever use the term 'villager' in reference to my role, before anyone was lynched/killed and it revealed his name for the vanilla townie role....

But whatever.

Except that use of the word 'villager' is in the mod's first post, and that you subsequently denied that 'villager' was a roleclaim.

But whatever.

[dybeck]

dybeck, I noticed you still have not explained your role. Please get to doing that.

Not right now thanks. I'd prefer to get to lynching scum.

Your post is, however, a beautiful effort to lurk in plain sight and to try and distract from the clear main issue of the moment, vis a vis that your scumbuddy is at L-2 and rising.

Why don't you tell us what you think about that instead?

[dybeck]

Mod: Any chance of a deadline extension?

In light of the fact that (a) it's the weekend, and (b) we've lost some time due to the migration.

[dybeck]

Shanba: do you have any kind of supporting evidence whatsoever to support your claim?

[dybeck]

unvote, vote: Shanba

. Nick is still scum.

[dybeck]

Javert: I've mentioned nothing whatsoever about my weak mode. I'd love to hear what you think it does.

[dybeck]

Also, I'd love to hear what I did on the two nights I haven't told you about. Please feel free to enlighten us all.

[dybeck]

I am not going to speculate for a role that I think is a fake-claim. I do not think your role has a Strong Mode or a Weak Mode, and that is precisely why I am voting for you.

As for the "two nights you haven't told us about," that is your duty to explain, and not mine. But if you would like me to hazard a guess, perhaps you are responsible for the two nights we have had two kills. I have been having trouble seeing you as scum with Sando in particular, but being scum in your own right is certainly making a good deal of sense.

Wow, I really must have put the cat among the pigeons in team scum if you're resorting to desperate measures like this. It doesn't even make sense! Firstly my claim is entirely fake - then I'm some kind of scum-half-rolecop-half-extra-killer. Pure genius.

[dybeck]

Let me ask you this then, Javert.

You've visited this thread with just hours to go until deadline. You are still voting for me.

Is this because you think you can build a successful lynch wagon on me before deadline, or not?

If not, can I take it that you'd rather a no-lynch than a Shanba lynch?

[dybeck]

I had also noticed that it is curious that the three confirmed town are not voting Shanba.

However, they don't have any information about who is scum and who is town. Such is the peril of being in the uninformed majority.

I am not using the deadline as a shield. As I've said, I just don't see the benefit of answering your questions. I'm sure that I can rustle something up overnight that will help to convince you (and, more importantly, Boberz) without feeding scum more information than is necessary.

So... if it were a direct choice, you'd prefer a no-lynch to a Shanba lynch?

Alternatively, should you and I attempt to build a Nick lynch between now and deadline, on the basis that it's something we're both content with?

[dybeck]

I don't particularly care to "work with you," but I admit I would vastly prefer a NickF227 lynch to a Shanba lynch.

Jolly good.

unvote, vote: NickF227

I'll be back before deadline to revote Shanba if this doesn't work.

[dybeck]

Mod:

can you confirm whether by 10pm

GMT

, you mean 10pm

UK time

? (ie 2.5 hours away?)

I will also periodically check the thread.

[dybeck]

And, ckd, will you be back online before deadline to get a lynch today if necessary?

[dybeck]

Are you actually relaying an opinion in that post, curiouskarmadog? If you are, please be more clear.

hmmm, thought it was pretty obvious.

there was so much back and forth between you and dybeck....only to end up, you two voting for each other...making a mental note of it mostly....one could look at that post and see distancing scum only to come together closer to deadline...do i think you two are doing that?....dont know, really would only make since if you were trying to protect Shanba...but I dont the mafia have 3 members left....

or perhaps one of you isnt as suspicious of the other as you are trying to portray....both you voted together pretty fast when you thought the deadline was super close.

so just making a mental note.

The choice, realistically, is between Nick, Shanba and no-lynch. Javert may or may not be scum, but if we have a joint agenda to get Nick lynched, then I'll take the support from wherever it comes. Nick is a better lynch than Shanba, and Shanba a better lynch than nobody.

[dybeck]

unvote, vote: Shanba

[dybeck]

vote: Nick

Boberz, you need to take a breath and think. Scum will, of course, want me dead, but you're not scum and you have a responsibility to keep your head clear.

You'll find building a wagon on me incredibly easy, I'm sure. Will you at least be sure to stop and think about whether you're comfortable with those that join you on the wagon, before you get to a lynch?

[dybeck]

dybeck, did you target nick last night?

Yep. But there is more. First, why do you ask?

Of course, hence why I am not voting for you.

I am not tunnelling I have just not actually had one of my suspects killed yet and it looks like we are losing.

To be honest, I think that there's a time when I'm probably the correct lynch. I can't think of a good way to confirm my own alignment - but if I'm killed, I can confirm the alignment of at least two pro-town people. Mathematically, that's good for town. I think we absolutely have to hit scum today though, just to swing the odds back into our favour and we need to get a break from somewhere.

[dybeck]

vote shanba

understand why farside reacted the way she did to my point about Esp...now, I wonder who didnt?

I don't get what this refers to. Can you give post numbers?

[dybeck]

They both already claimed...

[dybeck]

Ooh. I got this.

Shanba: who did you target last night?

[dybeck]

Well let's ask Nick.

Nick, you're a vanilla townie right? Can you think of any good reason why I might not get this result from you last night?

[dybeck]

Vote: dybeck

.

dybeck, is there a reason you voted four minutes after the deadline yesterday?

Yes. I was watching Desperate Housewives and forgot. Did it make a difference?

Also, I'm not caring for the fact that you are trying to get somebody else to claim their role before you have finished explaining your own role claim.

Yeah, you keep banging on about wanting more info about my role. I'm sure you do want more info. It must be a real thorn in scum's side knowing that I'm watching you overnight whilst probably getting doctor protection - knowing that you now have to kill vanilla townies like farside rather than going for power roles, simply because there's a risk that the list of confirmed players will grow faster than you can kill. But I'm playing for the TOWN, not for you rolefisher scum. Is that clear? Are we going to have to go through this throughout today too? Yesterday scum managed to derive a no-lynch through calculated avoidance of this thread and through creating sideshows like this. I don't intend for it to happen today. Kapeesh?

I plan on looking at some of the bigger wagons of the game this weekend. I don't think I have it in me to reread the entire game, but I should be able to manage that much.

Yeah I can hardly wait. No doubt you'll find some new way to conclude that somehow I'm the lynch. You're like a broken record.

Shanba, Nick, answers please so we can get this day started.

[dybeck]

I boosted ABR on the basis that he isn't one of the claimed villagers and I think he is town.

Vote: Jahudo

So, presumably, you think I'm scum? Seems odd that you souldn't boost me otherwise.

[dybeck]

Shanba: do you get any kind of feedback from the mod when you use your role?

[dybeck]

But I'll post it again...

Vote: Dybeck

Maybe you didn't get that because I'm whatever that role is, you know, the outsider one, as a hidden role? I remember reading about it but I forget the name for it. Miller? I dunno, but my PM says I'm town-aligned.

Lol. Are you kidding? You don't know your role but it's that one that means that is a villager but also lets cops discover that you're not one.

Love it. Let's lynch this guy now.

[dybeck]

And why the hell are you all just following Dybeck blindly? A smart mafia would try and kill him the first chance they get.

Nick - shall we tell them why you didn't try to kill me last night? Do you think they need to know? It's cool that me and you share a secret even though we're not on the same side, huh? We could be friends! Except that I'm afraid it's time for you to die now.

[dybeck]

Only that Nick knows that I was roleblocked last night. So his "But surely scum would kill you, wouldn't they?" argument is just feigning ignorance.

[dybeck]

Nick. Claim. Properly.

[dybeck]

At the moment I can see Dybeck and Nick being siblings.

Every time I think that the depths of stupidity have been completely plumbed, someone else posts.

[dybeck]

We seem to have a heck of a lot of ordinary villagers left, considering how many have died.

[dybeck]

Jeez. I investigate at night like a regular rolecop, but I only get to find out whether someone is "vanilla" or "not-vanilla". (OMG DYBECK SAID VANILLA AGAIN KILLZ HIM IMMEDIATELY ETC)

Yes, this sounds like a noob-scum claim, which is why I thought I'd breadcrumb it in the first four words of each sentence in this slightly oddly-worded post from Day 1:

I find vanilla townies

tend to get lynched in any event once they're forced to a claim.

I completely understand that

this is the usual way of things and I expect bv310 to bite the dust for this reason.

It's hard to believe

that boberz is exhibiting some superior skill by unvoting - seems more like a preemptive positioning.

But I hope you

will take a closer look at boberz overnight.

Believe me, later on,

we're going to need to lynch him.

Now that you've effectively rendered my strong mode useless, shall we go and lynch some scum?

[dybeck]

PS. My other investigation results were on Pomegranate and Shanba - both "non-vanilla", for those who wondered what I was doing the other nights.

[dybeck]

No I don't get any information on alignment - which is why I'm not campaigning wholeheartedly for a Shanba lynch. All I know is that Shanba is not vanilla - would have been great if he'd claimed it, but it was not to be.

Don't think I will have left breadcrumbs because I don't think I've made any of the decisions before lynch so far - although my reasoning with Boberz was pretty clear. I'm not entirely sure my logic has been infallible - I'm very conscious that I can't wholly convict scum, but that I can clear townies - although this hasn't always been my reasoning.

Targeted Nick because he'd claimed vanilla, so if his investigation said otherwise, we'd have an obvscum.
Targeted Esp and Pom because they looked likely lynch targets, and I expected/hoped to be able to clear them to avoid a mislynch.
Targeted Boberz and Shanba/Faraday because I was so sure they were scum and thought that maybe I could catch them in a fake claim the next day (sorry Boberz)

CKD, ABR, (and is there one other?) you've claimed vanilla - if I investigate you and find you're something else, it's gonna look pretty suspicious. If you're lying and town, you might want to consider how this is going to look. Not really sure what advice I have for you in this instance, though. You may still have good reasons - particularly those of you with a track record of fake claims.

Shall we lynch some scum now?

[dybeck]

Also, in other news, it's possible that I was not roleblocked last night. I got 'no result'. I suppose it's possible that my role was 'malfunctioned' like Shanba's claimed that roles can.

Shanba: target me tonight... in any event, I want to see what your role does and if it dishes out info.

[dybeck]

Actually, post script @Shanba: what the hell is the difference between your strong and weak modes, btw?

[dybeck]

And all: I'm going to be V/LA in a few days for a week. (Probably V/NA).

Mod

: Is it possible to not be replaced, but to delegate my vote to another player while I'm away?

[dybeck]

Order was Pom, Bob, Faraday, Esp, Nick, all using my strong mode. My weak mode is something entirely different, yet related, which I'm not prepared to claim at this point.

What exactly is the point of this conversation, apart from satisfying your respective curiosities? I think we've pretty much established I'm not the lynch for today, and this is just taking us out of the way.

[dybeck]

And Javert, Nick: You will need to significantly improve your own town credentials before I start answering your questions. Kthx.

[dybeck]

OK. Bored now. Have fun in your lylo tomorrow.

Don't vote boberz or Esp.

[dybeck]

Boberz, you are making this game very easy for scum, you know.

Imagine I'm not scum. You are allowing them to win this game in an abcolutely effortless way. All they need to do is sit back and wait while you lead a stubborn charge headlong into lynching the one person that can keep them from winning this game.

You really should at least let scum do some of the work - you'll have no idea who they are tomorrow otherwise.

And look - you've already rendered my strong mode useless. I will now not catch any more scum out in fakeclaims, since they can now all just claim anything non-vanilla, and I'll have to suck it up and buy it. Congratulations. Wanna do the same to my weak mode? Or is it now time to accept that actually I do know what I'm talking about - and when I say it's not in town's best interests to force me to claim, it is NOT in town's best interests to force me to claim.

Why don't you just chill out, reread, and stop trying to out me at all costs. Idiot.

[dybeck]

Essentially if dybeck is town I am fairly certain you are scum, any thoughts?

This is probably the only combination that doesn't really hold true, if you think about it. If I'm town, then I don't know anything more about alignments than you do, and you now have all the information about Shanba that I do.

Only scum have more information about alignments than we do.

And for the avoidance of doubt, mafia goons are not "vanilla" in terms of my results - I checked this explicitly with the mod before the game started.

I'm now V/LA for a few days. Up to the mod whether he wants to replace me. I'd also be happy if he had a change of heart and allowed me to proxy my vote to Esp until I get back.

[dybeck]

Shanba deserves a Scummy for that claim.

[dybeck]

[/quote]
Faraday deserves a scummy, we got a guilty on him and he talked his way out of a lynch..
[/quote]

That says more about the town who were left than it does about Faraday, tbh.

SK claim? Purleease. You find me one instance in history where this hasn't been a mafia ploy.

[dybeck]

Meh I've nominated Shanba for best role claim. I'd encourage you all to second/third him in the thread CKD just posted.

[dybeck]

Although I think the town was generally pretty dreadful - I do want to say that I think Ojanen was pretty shit-hot all the way through. I mean... did he even get a single vote all game?